The Tower of the Gods was definitely linear on purpose- they establish right at the start that it's a giant tower that you need to get to the top of, so you just keep climbing and climbing. If there were bits where you went back down, it'd just be a very vertical dungeon, instead of a narratively driven ascent.
I agree, though I wish they focused on the 'climbing' aspect. Linearity in dungeons leads itself well to the idea of slowly climbing a tower and feeling significant progress being made. It's what made Temple of Time in TP so good. Unfortunately Tower of the Gods falls short. You practically beam yourself right to the top. That final moment when you go outside and climb the steps towards the boss, you're robbed of the potential feeling of accomplishment. You can see how high up you are, but it didn't feel earned. I could get to the top of Everest if there was an elevator straight to the top. It's a missed opportunity for a great dungeon.
@@Patrick-ho3st the problem with temple of time is that the first part is a bit of a slog and its puzzles for the most part are pretty simple and repetitive, however, the concept works and it is probably the most creative dungeon in the game. tower of the gods was pretty underwhelming. the only good part from what i remember was the first part. the temple of time was not entirely linear. you can get the boss before getting the dominion rod. overall it is one of the better dungeons in twilight princess, but still a linear dungeon that is done correctly. hyrule castle tower in a link to the past was also well designed linear dungeon despite being mostly a gauntlet of enemies and very little puzzle solving. tower of hera in ALBW was also pretty good. alttp's version was not a bad concept either but it was underwhelming. snowhead temple and eagle's tower are unusual for tower dungeons because they are non-linear. the ice tower is also different where it is very linear then becomes less linear and allows for an optional key.
Hello! A quick update My use of "linear" and "non-linear" has been a sticking point throughout Boss Keys. That's my fault - you've gotta be careful with language as it can really muddy your message I've used it to mean two things: 1) Linear = Player must collect keys, open doors, and use items in a specific order. Non-linear = Player is given freedom to collect keys, open doors, and use items in an order of their choosing 2) Linear = Player moves from room to room in a direct path to the boss, never needing to return to a previous area. Non-linear = Player returns to previously-visited rooms with new items or after changing the dungeon layout. The first use is legit. The second is confusing. So I will be changing to a new set of terms for the second use, in the next video. Right now I'm thinking single-layered and multi-layered dungeons. We'll see. Join me for Minish Cap to see!
The only difference I'm seeing is linear w/ backtracking and linear w/o backtracking. They're both linear. In this video, you talked about shortcuts to avoid the backtracking. I thought it was clear. But it does bring up a good point, does backtracking when there are no other choices add any value to the game? You mentioned tension. Dunno about that one.
Perhaps better term would be 'inter-connected'? Since what you're describing is the same principle that makes metroidvania worlds feel more like a coherent place.
Mark, don't you think though that having a variety of "types" of dungeons (linear and non-linear) in a Zelda game is a maybe a good thing? My personal feeling is that an ideal Zelda game would have dungeons in many styles - some really demanding of puzzle solving skills, some more of fighting skills, etc. For instance, the Shadow Temple which is so often picked on, I think, is saved in a way because it directly follows the Water Temple. Those two dungeons are SO contrasting in the way they work that it keeps things fresh. After the slog that is the Water Temple (though a wonderful slog - easily my favorite dungeon in the entire series!) it really feels good to slam through enemies and freaky torture chamber-inspired traps one after the other at a high pace. Both dungeons satisfy different aspects of the gamer's appetite for play in a Zelda game and so I wonder about holding them to the same standards. For instance, the Shadow Temple would get a D at best for puzzles/mental demand of the player while the Water Temple would get an A. The Shadow Temple though might get an A for action/dexterity demand, while the Water Temple would get a C or so. This all being said, I agree that Wind Waker could have used more dungeons like the Wind Temple, but I don't think more linear, action-based dungeons like Dragon Roost aren't without their place. Just a thought. Anyway, I love the series and everything you do. Can't wait to hear what you think of Skyward Sword!
I enjoy this series, but it has made me realize that many people love zelda (and video games) for different reasons. I enjoy the idea of a truly open, exploration heavy dungeon. But in execution this often is much less exciting than when compared to "linear" dungeons. Nonetheless this is a thought provoking series, and I greatly appreciate your consistence stance on what you like about dungeons. Most youtube video's I watch about zelda's game design (Usually titled "Why I HATE Link to the Past", or "Twilight Princess THE WORST ZELDA GAME") is usually absurdly biased towards certain titles without objective justification.
It's wonderful you've realized that. I didn't notice it till a couple of years ago. It means different design philosophies may be used depending on the game and what the designer is striving for. For instance, even though, I hate most design ideas behind JRPGs, I can't knock them off. They're appealing to other kind of players and are being designed with different goals in mind. Naturally, there's some concepts that are ever-lasting, objective and unbiased e.g. frame rate. On the flip side, a lot of ideas that I may disagree with, are encouraged by some designers and players alike e.g. heavy dialogue interrupting gameplay, esoteric puzzles, overly simplistic puzzles etc.
I feel like most 'linear' zelda dungeons are designed to trick you into thinking you're exploring something while not being guided, that's the main point of linear experiences really, look at last of us, which has lots of dead end rooms, but it doesn't stop you from going towards them, the game feels MASSIVE...as long as you stay on the critical path, same goes for zelda dungeons, as long as you don't pay attention to the machinations something like the shadow temple can feel grand and sweepign and terrorfying, but if you graph the 'important elements' out the backdrop falls, the house lights come up and you see that the carefully created artiface isn't as intricate as you thought. it's deffinitely a different design choice that I don't think is worse, but then again most people think the water temple is the worst, while I actually really enjoyed it, so maybe I'm just playing devils advocate.
Yah I think if the linearity is well-disguised and the moment-by-moment puzzles are interesting, it's not really an issue to me - just part of the 'theatre' of gaming, to use your analogy. The endless keys and small rooms in ALTTP aren't actually as satisfying to me as a player I don't think.
I think Wind Waker is the best way to make linear dungeons work. Unlike most other Zelda games that are more linear, WW's linearity doesn't make it any less fun or enjoyable. I agree that it can be too easy at times, but I still think it's a very fun game with a lot of positives. Also, you were playing the Wii U version - the Triforce quest should only take like, thirty minutes to an hour at most.
@@OtakuUnitedStudio Not to mention the fact that you can't get enough rupees for even a single map by default, making the collection of at least one wallet upgrade mandatory. Requiring the completion of sidequests to see the game's credits is a game design sin. They're called _side_ quests for a reason.
I love these videos and respect the hell out of you for how in-depth and well-made they are, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your stance that extensive backtracking is what makes dungeons great. Still, excellent video.
It's not extensive backtracking, I think - it's more the possibility of getting lost being absent. I think - or, well, that's how I feel. Zelda dungeons are always a bit of a guided tour, but Wind Waker really made it feel like a ride at a fair.
yeah! I noticed that in his Link's Awakening video, too... he seems to really like the most-frustrating dungeons :P different people like different stuff, I suppose...
It's really hard to make a player feel like he's actually exploring a temple without it becoming tedious :P there definitely is a big negative side to backtracking in particular, but It can be done in very cool ways I thin!. I'd say if you need to walk A LOT to test whether you understand the dungeon it becomes boring as the uneventful legwork interrupts your flow.. If you can do more exploring in your mind it becomes more fun again, I think. There's much more to it but I think this is something to consider
Well, there's the two different kinds of shortcut. The ones that let you save on the walking through solved puzzles are one thing - the ones that drop you directly at the next step are another. It's not about the fact that there's a shortcut or not, it's about the question "does each new key open up an immediate path directly to the next one, or do I need to think about where to bring it?"
You touch on two reasons I'd defend the dungeons in Wind Waker: optional items and puzzle motifs. They didn't offer the same kind of challenge that previous Zelda dungeons did, if you only care about finishing the thing. That's not really the sort of game WW is, though. WW leans much more heavily on exploration of the overworld than anything else in the series that I've had the chance to play. This is because the audience they most wanted to capture was people interested in the setting. They knew that with this time-consuming sailing mechanic, they'd need to target people who might enjoy the peace rather than be bored by it, and that works best when you're fascinated with the places you're seeing. This is also the reason WW has more overt references to the busted, confusing mess of the Zelda timeline than anything that came before it. The dungeon design is informed by this targeted approach. I didn't perceive them as particularly linear and was quite satisfied while exploring them, because those things weren't optional to me. A boomerang is a boomerang is a boomerang. I've picked one up a million times, I know I need it, but what's buried at the bottom of the ocean over there? I HAVE to know about that. As for the puzzle motifs: they feel good and play into the "magical object" quality I talked about in the comments of the OoT and MM videos. They're clearly important to improving the design ethos of the series, and WW had the most developed yet. The dungeons in WW are so tightly focused on it that it reminds me of the kishotenketsu concept discussed in your SM3DW video. The trouble is that it's quite difficult to present something in that manner without a fairly high degree of linearity. To do this in a non-linear fashion, careful choices must be made about which intermediate-level puzzles can be parallelized, and then you have to figure out how to work that into the dungeon spatially. It's important to remember that, for people interested in fully exploring the overworld, the dungeons have always primarily been teaching tools, even when they were trickier. They show you all the ways your new toy can help you get to stuff outside that you had to pass by before. With WW leaning so heavily on this, trying to put so much of the great adventure above ground for the people invested in the setting, it's easy to see why they chose to compress the dungeon experience. They aren't quite like traditional Zelda dungeons, but WW isn't a traditional Zelda game. If they're all you're looking at, they lose something compared to their predecessors. However, when taking the game as a whole, the dungeons perform their intended purpose very well.
I like your ideas, but I don't think the idea 'They show you all the ways your new toy can help you get to stuff outside' holds water in Wind Waker (ha, pun). Most of the items you get in dungeons are used very sparingly in the overworld, with the exception of the hookshot and bombs - but that's because your ship uses them in completely different ways to those in the dungeon anyway. So I don't think you can argue they are learning tools, which means they should work well in a vacuum.
You're not wrong really, because that's how it is when you're on the boat, and that does account for quite alot of your time. However, the world is peppered with other ways to make use of your tools. There's all kinds of little microdungeons you can find while island hopping that call for different mechanical knowledge, and the big islands have more several more conventional "how do I get up there" puzzles.
007bistromath I remember there being a couple of cool instances of that, but in most cases you just had to get to the island and then perhaps bomb something. Unless I'm misremembering? I didn't play too long ago and pretty sure I got nearly everything in the game.
My own memory is a bit spotty; I've done it 100% twice, but years ago. I know there was definitely more to it than that, though. I remember becoming frustrated at more than one instance of seeing a thing I could ALMOST ride the leaf to, when in fact you need another tool to get to the right place to launch. Many of the aforementioned microdungeons also present unique item-focused challenges, like that archery trial out in the middle of nowhere.
For me the biggest thing that differentiates recent Zelda dungeons from the older ones is the growing emphasis on in-room puzzles as opposed to some sort of complex maze- the first two dungeons of Skyward Sword, for instance, are little more than a step by step progression towards the boss, however the individual rooms feature some pretty awesome puzzles and mechanics, it's just that the actual dungeons themselves aren't terribly interesting. But I do feel like overall there's an emphasis on this in-room exploration and changing different things about the dungeon, such as flooding the room in Skyview Temple, or when you get the beetle and use that to open up a variety of different things in the central room. Obviously that isn't to say that it's a universal trend- something like the Sandship is an extremely complicated maze wherein you're continually changing the whole of the dungeon- but I do feel like overall the idea has become emphasis on the puzzles within a particular room rather than how the rooms are related to each other.
Certain of them felt pretty weak to me-i:e the opening dungeons, though they all have a fantastic sense of atmosphere. Lanayru Mining Facility makes fantastic use of backtracking however, and stuff like Sky Keep, The Sandship and Ancient Cistern are all fantastic examples of dungeons, not to mention that however weak the actual layout is nearly every 3D Zelda dungeon tends towards some fantastic atmosphere, the only exception in my eyes is Woodfall Temple.
Skyward sword actually broke this trend surprisingly for how linear it was. Skykeep, Ancient Cistern, and Skykeep are all maze like. Similar to OoT and MM
Love how these videos are made, though I don’t think the linearity is inherently bad. Backtracking is generally something I don’t enjoy in Zelda games so I appreciated this change
Wind Waker doesn't have as strong dungeon design as other Zelda games, but it's still one of my favorites for various other reasons. I loved sailing around, the artstyle is amazing and Link is very expressive, the combat is the best in the series (though the easier difficulty kinda makes it feel like a waste), and the confrontation with Ganondorf is probably my favorite ending in a Zelda game, on par with OoT. I feel like a lot of people think because the dungeon design isn't as strong, then the game should be 0/10 and thrown in the garbage, and games aren't really that simple. If I was to build a Zelda game out of the best parts of other Zelda games, I'd be plucking a good number of things from Wind Waker.
I was surprised by the quality of combat in this game. Despite the fact that so many of Link's sword attacks are dreadfully unrealistic, the combat mechanics actually do a really good job of creating the feel of a sword fight. Too bad the enemies are so... stupid. On the bright side, at least they could pick up weapons, and could fight unarmed. The darknuts seemed far more skilled in Wind Waker than in later installments.
I would say that Twilight Princess has better combat, but its combat is just Wind Waker's with the counters becoming active, rather than QTEs. Also, while Wind Waker's choreography is a tad on the silly side, it is still far more realistic than the likes of Skyrim. As a result it is far more effective and fun.
Elouj Time Reaver I respectfully disagree about Twilight Princess having better sword combat than Wind Waker. Twilight Princess's art style is far more mature and realistic than Wind Waker's, which calls for more realistic animations; this makes the helm splitter and back spin horribly out of place. In Wind Waker, these moves simply serve as the generic counter and involve reading your enemy and timing your attack. In Twilight Princess, these moves are just spammed until your enemy dies. If they really wanted to give Twilight Princess Link a good counter that fits the art style, they should have done something more like Skyward Sword's shield attack. Wind Waker communicates the feel of a real sword fight through these counters and the fact that you have to consciously hold your shield up to block, whereas in Twilight Princess, Link blocks automatically, and counterattacks are replaced with spamming "hidden skills." The shield attack was a good upgrade, but they made it overpowered. I admit though, Twilight Princess had the best cavalry combat in the series, and the second best ranged combat.
I forgot that they made the shielding automatic, I usually did not hold down L targetting during fights, so I never really thought about that. I would agree that that aspect is weaker, but counters a definitely better when active. It is better if you are punished for trying to spam them, but that boils down to enemy AI, which is abysmal in every Zelda game.
I'm quite late but Id still like to make this statement: Wind Waker's Dungeons: Easy? Yes Straightforward? Yes Simplistic? Yes Fun? Yes Engaging? Yes Stylistically Awesome? Yes *Unpopular Opinion Warning* All in my top 10 Zelda Dungeons? Yes
Also quite late but the reason it works is WW didn't eliminate any of the complexity Mark was looking for, it simply moved it to the overworld. Whereas the dungeons were the main paragraphs of prior Zeldas, they were more like the punctuation marks of WW.
Just wait, he'll point out that TP and SS's dungeon design is even worse in regards to the "use item on obvious target to get to next room" BS that marked this Dark Age of Zelda.
I think more than anything this game is highlighting a split in the Zelda fanbase. I feel like what constitutes a dungeon having a "Zelda" feel now comes from to completely separate pools of origin. The people that started the series playing the earlier games grew up with an understanding that puzzles span the entirety of the dungeon (and brings in that idea of "non-linearity") whereas the people that started playing the later entries were exposed to more room oriented puzzles. In my opinion one is NOT better than the other and they serve the overall feel of each game in very different ways. Despite what has been said here I do feel like Wind Waker is actually one of the more open Zelda games to date with the ability to sail and explore the map at your own pace. The fact the the outside world and the dungeons contrast so much in this way I feel is a very interesting design decision. All in all it can't be forgotten that this series is focussing on trying to compare and contrast Dungeon experiences, and maybe the dungeons in this game out of context fair weakly against other entries in the series but like so many other people are saying there is soooo much more than just the mechanics and flow that goes into creating a quality experience. Personally I love the story in Zelda but don't necessarily need "non-linearity" or deep exploration baked into my Dungeon experience, I prefer it to be an optional endeavour, but I know thats what I like personally and not what everyone else necessarily wants. Nintendo have given themselves a pretty tall order by continuously changing what Zelda means to newer generations. Must be pretty tough to attempt to serve so many masters especially as the series becomes more and more popular.
8:00 i beg to differ. In wind waker there is a part in the mirror temple that you have to reflect sunlight off your shield onto a curtian to burn it and reveal a switch. This is way more clever than shooting a block of ice with a fire arrow. the sense of self discovery that you get from it is awesome
Although you are correct in your assessment of linear and non-linear level design and the value that it can hold for a Zelda game, I think it's important to simultaneously understand that the simplicity and linearity of The Wind Waker's dungeons can, in fact, be a good thing. The 2D games set a standard of difficult dungeons with complex puzzles and difficult boss fights, and it fit the framework that the games were trying to work in. A complex and rigorous adventure requires mental skill, and ALTTP and the Gameboy Zelda games followed this ideology and created fantastic games because, again, it fit the tone and framework of the games. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask saw a slight departure from this, given the transition to the third dimension, although the same core system applied. The Stone Tower Temple and The Water Temple (despite popular opinion) are, as you said, great examples of fantastic dungeons with interesting, complex systems put in place. These games keep within the framework of an "ideal" Zelda game, making a fantastic game in the process. The Wind Waker marks what is, in my opinion, the biggest change in the Legend of Zelda's history as a franchise. The art style made the environment of the game more friendly and relaxing, in comparison to the more realistic and darker tones of the previous 3D games. Because of this shift in tone, the characters gained more complexity in their expression and the environments became richer in atmosphere. The story was more intertwined, and the characters had more development. It was, in many ways, a completely new game. The dungeons had to change as well, however. The light-hearted atmosphere of the game required the gameplay to cater to its needs. The dungeons and puzzles were much simpler than they had ever been before because it fit the tone of the game. The game would not have made sense if it had had dungeons in the style of Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening. But, still, your point remains. The dungeons are, indeed, not as complex or interesting as they have been in the past. The "ideal dungeon" isn't nearly as present as it is in other Zelda games. I would like to propose that that isn't necessarily a bad thing, however. The Wind Waker is a different game than most other Zelda games, and perhaps that is a good thing.
I feel like most of them definitely are- the opening temple in Twilight Princess is a great example of backtracking all throughout a central room until you can finally take the last few steps forward and reach the boss. The Goron Mines are an atmospheric maze, Lakebed Temple requires a pretty solid understanding of its architecture, Arbiter's Grounds has astonishing atmosphere, Snowpeak Ruins is a wonderfully surreal take on a dungeon, City in The Sky also has some good back'n'forth and while I think Palace of Twilight is way too short, it's still got some of the best atmosphere in any dungeon, and even for the ones with some weaker construction (Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak) on the actual layout, the in-room puzzles are fun, the atmosphere's fantastic and you're guaranteed to spend a good amount of time exploring if you missed a single key.
I have a completely different takeaway than you on this, I feel like The Wind Waker was the first time Zelda dungeons really got interesting, and the reason for this is the moment-to-moment puzzle/gameplay design is so much stronger than it was in previous entries' dungeons. Players tend not to experience levels as overarching experiences, but on the moment-to-moment, so even if the structures of Wind Waker's dungeons are uninteresting, the dungeons are still great and fun to explore because the things you get to do in each individual room are fun in and of themselves. I also disagree that the low level of difficulty is a bad thing. The Wind Waker was designed to be accessible to new players, in fact that's one of the most important themes in its narrative: passing the torch on to the next generation. To that end, the simplified dungeon layouts are 100% successful in achieving this.
My takeaway from this video is that Mark kind of missed the importance of theme. He seems to realize only at the very end that every dungeon's puzzle is thematic; because the puzzles are thematic and the first two dungeons have loads of lore resonations, they feel bigger and deeper than they really are. Theme and lore also why I generally like Twilight Princess's dungeons better than Ocarina's. The downside to thematic dungeons is, of course, a tendency to organize your entire dungeon around your key item. But the trend towards organizing dungeons around key items is omnipresent in 3-D Zelda games. While I agree that the bosses are much too easy, even by Zelda standards, I think in this case Mark has missed the point because he's been looking at dungeons as exercises in complexity rather than ones in theme. I think it was somewhere around my second or third playthrough that I realized that they aren't supposed to be complex -- but they are supposed to be thematically coherent. The theater of moving through dungeons has played ever-increasing roles in Zelda games.
Lyseola -- Actually, it's fascinating. I approach the gameplay experience the same way I, as a writer, approach a story. There is a reason semioticists don't write good literature!
I completely agree. Windwaker has comparatively strong dungeons in my opinion - in ALTTP the mechanics were very complex and ingenious but I'd argue often overly so, and the designs, atmosphere and themes in each temple were often a little bland and interchangeable. I'd agree that for me, moment-by-moment puzzles are more engaging than remembering countless keys and rooms.
Well to be fair to Mark, this series analyzes design from an analytical standpoint. This series is meant to look at the structure and design of a dungeon, so thematic and personal feelings are often to put to the wayside.
Wow, you totally put my experience with Windwaker into words. I remember playing it back in high school and being somewhat disappointed with the temples. I couldn't explain why, especially because I had a few friends who absolutely swore by this game. Of course, Windwaker is still one of my favorite games in the franchise, but not because the dungeons are anything super satisfying, let alone that there are only four/five of them. I am particularly excited to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess because those dungeons are what got me into LoZ post-Ocarina of Time.
I can't wait for him to rip Minish Cap a new one. Wind Waker's dungeon design had problems, but at least it gave you plenty of islands to explore. MC just sort of hates you for trying to play it.
Angolin he doesn't really go in depth as to rip it a new one, but still I don't remember minish caps dungeons being bad at all, maybe the swamp one but not the other ones
Rip Minish Cap a new one? That game was sooooooo good! It was like if Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, and Wind Waker had a tri-baby. I loved Vaati and Ezlo. And the shrinking idea was freaking sweet.
Danielle Anderson I would have to play through it again as it's been roughly 10 years since I've played it to give an opinion of the dungeon designs. But one mechanic I remember from one that was pretty cool was based around using this air vase that you could use as a vacuum to blow wind or suck things towards you. And it had a lot of functionality and interactions with the puzzles in cool ways
Everyone, he's not complaining about backtracking. What he's saying is that in a regular dungeon, you get the key item and open new routes in the dungeon. So like when you enter the dungeon, you see something you cant interact with in the first room. You get key item, return to that room, and now you have a new path due to that item. That's how you explore, it gives you a reason to explore old rooms to reach new places, which isn't just backtracking cause room X opened up and you have to walk across the dungeon to get there. So yes, Windwaker streamlines this by giving you shortcuts to the next area. But it does that because there is nothing new in the old rooms. There's no route in the old room for you to open with your item, so it makes sense that Windwaker lets you bypass that. So shortcuts are good, but that there are no new routes to explore in old rooms are bad.
While I do see where you're coming from, I completely disagree with your end point here. I think the shortcuts to get to where you need to go, as opposed to backtracking through places you've already gone, is actually quite good. It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go. But that's just my opinion.
Of course! Opinions are good. To explain my point a bit more - having the boss be at the end of a long and scary dungeon ramps up the stakes because if you die, you've gotta get back there. More enemies, more exploring, more traps. You don't wanna die because you know it's going to be painful! If you can just get back to the boss room in five seconds with a warp then - oh well, no big deal. Reduces the tension.
*_"It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go."_* I dunno dude, I think it shows much more respect for the player to effectively say "Well, here's the item, I trust you know where and how to use it," rather than taking the player by the hand on a guided dungeon tour, just in case they don't know what to do. Backtracking can be "fresh gameplay" if new items or changes to the dungeon recontextualize what you've previously experienced, so that doesn't have to be an issue. Think Metroid.
Cheeseman This is true. I'd argue the short cuts are their own "sort" of backtracking, and maybe they could be done in a better, exciting way, like with recontextualizing previous rooms, which you brought up.
I see where you're coming from a bit. Phantom Hourglass really capitalized on the taking notes mechanic, which really helped me, because PH was my first Zelda game. Notes on the map are nice because you can leave the dungeon and come back and it will still be there. Of course, there is something to be said for the way they designed the dungeons. Windwaker seems to be designed for younger players, or people new to the series. For some reason, fans of the series seem to think a game being "easy", is a bad thing. Just because a game is easy doesn't mean it isn't fun. If this were true, no one would ever want to replay a game. But again, going back to the issue of spoon feeding in a sense the player, this mechanic is very important for younger players. Even with this implemented, it may still take this new player a minute to connect that the vines on the flower are the same as the vines they had to cut through before.
While Wind Waker still is my favorite Zelda, your criticism is very valid, I also think WW is one of the easiest Zeldas. But that made me think about something and I'd like to hear your opinion on in a future episode: how could Nintendo (or any other developer) create a dungeon with a difficulty scale? I know the answer is the optional items, that advanced players can go after those and find a bigger challenge, but is there a way where the player chooses the "hard mode" and then the structure or the puzzles get harder?
Off the top of my head, a very cumbersome solution may be to make dungeons rely on a risk and reward system. Think of Shovel Knight's checkpoints and Kid Icarus Uprising intensity system, in both games you can pretty much select the difficulty (mostly the latter) while appealing to different kinds of players. What the Zelda series could so is have minidungeons that range from easy to difficult and big dungeons that rely on this Kid Icarus-like system. That way a player who wants a dungeon tough as nails may have that experience if they pick the higher intensity, I mean difficulty. Naturally, to make programming easier, this would've to be mostly combat based.
You could add optional portions to dungeons that give you rewards, similar to the well in Ocarina of Time. Link doesn't need the lens of truth to beat the Shadow Temple, so he never needs to beat the well. The high difficulty dungeons could be the ones with optional items in them.
I need to think about this a little longer; it doesn't make sense that the hardest dungeons are the unnecessary ones that make the easy dungeons easier. How standard dungeons that can be beaten without some key item, but are much, much harder to complete without it. The key item could be in a fairly easy dungeon, allowing a player to do something easy to make something hard less difficult? Then put in place either a reward system for completing the primary dungeon without first completing the optional dungeon, and/or a punishment system for going out of your way to get the item that makes the dungeon easy. Maybe the reward could be some optional quest item that you cannot complete a particular sidequest without, like the gratitude crystals in Skyward Sword, the poe souls in Twilight Princess, Golden Skulltulas in Ocarina of Time, and the masks in Majora's Mask. In order for the gameplay to remain challenging in the final dungeon then, the reward for beating the dungeons the hard way could not be overpowered, but upon completion of the sidequest the player should feel heroic and fulfilled. Maybe it unlocks an extended ending, like the ones in Majora's Mask. The punishment could look something like when Impa calls Skyward Sword Link a failure for taking to long to get find Zelda, resulting in her capture. It shouldn't automatically make the game more difficult, but perhaps encourage the players to step up their game, earn the love and respect of the NPCs, and be the legend that is Link.
Wind Waker, when looking at its parts alone, might just be one of the weakest Zeldas in the franchise........ but then, it's not. WW is one of the best Zeldas. For some reason, WW comes out to be greater than the sum of its parts; the overall experience is better than their parts alone. It has to be that everything in the game enhances the experience of everything else. WW is a really fun and good game.
It's good design. If you take the dungeons on their own, they are simple and linear... BUT they are also set inside a large open-world that requires the player to memorize/write down key details to successfully navigate it. So, a layer of complexity that once existed in the dungeons was not removed- it was simply moved to the overworld, not unlike Breath of the Wild.
Mark's more focused on a specific kind of challenge--mostly spacial awareness. Being challenged by the bosses in terms of combat is possible, but mark wasn't all that concerned with it at this stage of the project He changed his mind a bit later on though
@@OtakuUnitedStudio I think childhood me just got lost, could not follow up with the map. If I remember correctly I rescued a Korok then I just did not know what else to do...
That's an AMAZING series, Mark! I had never seen anyone analyze Zelda Dungeons like this, with such technical intricacy instead of mostly subjectivity alone. I really like how you use logical arguments to back up what most (including myself) would consider unpopular opinions.
This is interesting to me. The Wind Temple is my least favorite dungeon by far in this game. So much time is spent in the main core area, it takes a long time to go up and down from there until the turbines are blowing, and you often have to double up on that journey (once for Link, once for Makar), and there are a lot of large spaces with relatively little inside them. Even at the top of the main core area there are a bunch of windmills and neat looking things, but there is absolutely zero to do there. Conversely, I liked that the Earth Temple and the Fire temple allowed you to avoid monotonous backtracking and have shortcuts, or in the case of the Fire Temple, take you to a different part of a room you already know, but without the same agonizing travel times as in the Wind Temple.
Hey Mark, I personally think you have some of the best game analyses on TH-cam and making this Boss Keys series as a lead-in to a Zelda episode is brilliant. I would love to see you give other games the same treatment, when appropriate.
Given the visual style, platform and easy bosses I can imagine that they were trying to make the dungeons more kid-friendly while keeping that signature feel that would prime children into wanting the more challenging versions of the same thing presented in the other zelda games. I remember trying to play ocarina of time dungeons as an 8 year old and just getting way too confused. I could hardly manage the controls, kept forgetting where or what I was supposed to do and generally just did not have the dexterity or knowledge of gaming conventions to keep up.
Angolin Admittedly no, the closest I've played was Zelda Phantom Hourglass, which nobody seems to remember *sniff*. I'd say my point is based mostly on what was mentioned in this video. To be clear, calling something "kid friendly" is not derogatory, Nintendo is well known for creating plenty of fantastic "kids games", and their is genuine value in deep and interesting games aimed at a younger audience. Wind Waker as described here struck me as just that: a good game, but rounded off to make it more amiable for a younger audience.
***** The story is definitely not kid-friendly. The opening cutscene implies that everyone is Hyrule died after Ganondorf returned while Link was adventuring in Majora's Mask. The end involves Link making Ganondorf's head the new Pedestal of Time. Seriously, man, get yourself a Smash adapter, the PC drivers, and Dolphin. WW is kinda weak in the dungeon design area, but it has a lot of other great stuff going for it.
Ya do know that a lot of narratives aimed for childeren reference death and violence on a large scale, right? Also the opening cutscene doesn't actually imply that the Hylians die, it says that they all ran to the hilltops to escape the flood. But even of they did, look at a lot of Disney movies(Bambi, Pinocchio, Black Cauldron, The Lion King) and you can see that they explore a lot of very dark subjects. What makes them good for children isn't so much the content of the story, but how it is explored and the tone of the piece. With The Wind Waker's bright visual design, optimistic tone, bright and cheery soundtrack, and complimented by it simpler dungeon design and fun but non-challenging combat, I really feel that Nintendo was aiming for a younger audience with this game. Which worked for me, I got this game when I was 7 and loved it. I feel that as adults we can see all of this dark content and feel as if it's not for children, but not realise that a lot of kids don't see this stuff at all. (Sorry for the wall of text btw, not an attack on Angolins comment, just wanted to share my perspective :) )
It's a shame - your criticism is probably quite valid (I've not played any other Zelda games to completion, but I trust your analysis), but the result is what I'd consider the least interesting episode in this series to date. It's probably due to the dungeons being much less interesting in the terms that you've chosen for the series, but this also makes what you say less interesting. It might be different for people who know the Zelda series much better than I do, though.
Miles_Metal... 8-Bit Metal, Video Game and Film Covers The new lighting looks really ugly to me and kind of hurts my eyes a little. It reminds me of that time in the late '00s and early '10s where every game had ridiculous levels of bloom, except that WWHD also has ridiculous levels of gamma too. Everything looks like someone smeared vaseline on a camera lens and pointed it at a spotlight. The original had flat colors, decent shadows, and good shading, so aside from the edges of the models looking a little blocky it almost looks like a new game. Not AAA, but definitely better than most indie graphics. EDIT: Also, the aspect ratio is stuck on 4:3 and resolution is noticeably lower than modern games, but run it through Dolphin on a good PC and you can fix that.
Okay, so I get that Wind Waker is linear. And apparently that's a bad thing, but... why? Yes, non-linearity is nice to have. It's good to feel like there's more than one way you can do something. But is the lack of that feeling automatically a slight against the game? Why is the idea of backtracking supposed to be so pivotal to my enjoyment of this game? As far as I can tell, it's just a different way of doing things, and this video doesn't explain why I might want to think otherwise.
As I said in the vid, it's not about being able to do things out of order. It's about exploring one space inside and out, and regularly reevaluating rooms now that you have some new key, or some new item, or you've changed the dungeon itself. It's also about making the simple act of exploring the space an interesting challenge of spacial reasoning and navigation. This is how Zelda started and is what I, for one, love about the games. Because if you want to play a game where you go from room to room to room in a straight line then, well, pick up just about any other video game series :P
Fluffy Heretic He explained this with his first example in the forest temple. In previous zelda games you would be left to figure out that you needed to use the boomerang to cut the vines of the big plant you came across earlier in the dungeon. in wind waker the game railroads you straight to that big plant again. basically, the nonlinearity of previous zelda games made each dungeon a large puzzle to be solved on top of the puzzles in each room. wind waker's dungeons lack this complexity, so they feel like just a series of room puzzles.
Mark Brown No I mean, I get why it's a good thing to have. My point was that I didn't see the inherit superiority. But I suppose that explanation is good as any.
My guess is that the superiority comes with the fact that it's original to the series to do dungeons this way. rather than most other titles, It's not a dungeon "run", where you just try to make it from point A to B as quick as possible, like the majority of titles that have dungeons, but rather, a deep and nuanced space that wants you to pay attention to the layouts of the rooms with attention to the details BECAUSE you are revisiting them throughout your journey, and finding new things, in a sense, mastering the space
It's not really that one is superior to the other, so much as one may serve Zelda's goals and other mechanics/design decisions better than the other. I think the problem with Wind Waker's dungeons isn't that they're linear, so much as they didn't supplement this loss of freedom in exploration with anything. Creating puzzle motifs was a great start, but that has more to do with the intuitive nature of a puzzle's design (and immersive cohesion), and less to do with how engaging they actually are as problems to solve. I think the perfect supplement therefore would've been to create more daring, complex, and numerous puzzles that weren't quite so simple. They could've also made combat more complex as a supplement instead. Either way, losing the complexity and depth of dungeon layouts wouldn't have been an issue if the depth of other areas had expanded to compensate. I think that's where the core of the problem lies.
This is an old video, but the Forest Temple's ice eye switch has a purpose: it's to teach you that you can use arrows to shoot through fire and light things. Remember, Adult Link has no access to the Deku Sticks. So how does he light torches? He has to use arrows. But the problem is is how do you know that? You can't know that. You do know you can use arrows to hit an eye switch. So when you see an eye switch covered in ice, you know you have to melt the ice. So when you see the lit torch, you put 2 and 2 together. Nintendo now taught you how to light torches as Adult Link with a neat puzzle!
you can also use din's fire. the forest temple was a pretty consistent dungeon overall but it also felt experimental with some of its puzzles. for example the twisted corridor only applied twice unlike in stone tower temple where the dungeon flip was the entire dungeon. then you had the rotating wall. this could have made an interesting puzzle perhaps in the central room where you had to line it up to other paths.
@@chaosprime1629 I've always felt the rotating wall would've been a great puzzle for hitting 3 Poe paintings. That should've been how you activate the Green Poe, and the timed jigsaw puzzle should've been used for the Purple Poe. As for the twisted room, there should've been one more with a puzzle that leads you to Phantom Ganon (replacing the rotating wall in the original). And perhaps they could've even used one more twisted room in the Forest Section of Ganon's Castle. And yeah, requiring arrows to light things on fire is only required a few times in the game IIRC (like in Ganon's Castle), but Nintendo still wanted you to know that arrows can light things on fire and the ice eye switch was a pretty neat way of showing you they can.
@@McDonaldsDude that is how i did it the first time. the poes was a nice concept for the multi key for a single lock (which originated in eagle's tower) but for beth i would have changed it to a different puzzle. i do think that a blue fire sort of obstacle would have been an interesting means to prevent that sort of cheesing in the dungeon itself while the water temple giving an alternate solution with din's fire worked. the forest temple in master quest added to the rotating platform a blue switch but you can technically skip this room if you know what you are doing. overall i do think the forest temple is a very solid dungeon, but it does have a lot of missed potential.
@@McDonaldsDude as for ganon's castle, that actually might have made the forest barrier more interesting. also the other thing i want to add to that video is that puzzle motifs technically go back to alttp, however, it was not done for every dungeon. one dungeon in particular that i can think of with this applied structure was the water dungeon. also link's awakening had it but due to most dungeons being non linear it is easier to miss. eagle's tower directs you with this sort of design and turtle rock has it the ice chunk puzzles.
I say keep it to Zelda, because where do you draw the line? If you do Okami because it's similar to Zelda, then why not Okamiden, StarTropics 1 and 2, Beyond Oasis and Legend of Oasis, Ys series, Gunple: Gunman’s Proof, Crusader of Centy, Golden Axe Warrior, Landstalker, Alundra, Brave Fencer Musashi, Oceanhorn, Beyond Good and Evil, Darksiders I and II, Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon, Mega Man Legends 1 and 2, Star Fox Adventures, etc. etc.
TopHatPangolin *_"Okami is still the one most-like zelda"_* No. I can pretty much guarantee you aren't familiar with some of the games I mentioned. Some of them like Oceanhorn, Crusader of Centy, or Golden Axe Warrior are more like Zelda than Okami is. *_"Okami doesn't try to be a character action game"_* That's wrong, Okami _does_ try to be a character action game to an extent. Certainly much more than Zelda. *_"It's like trying to say Portal isn't THAT different from first person shooters because it involves shooting in first person, so its comparisons to Antechamber are mute... or something."_* I'm not saying the comparison to a similar game is invalid. I'm saying comparing to _just one_ similar game makes little sense, and is opening up a can of worms as there are many similar games.
Hi Mark, I just wanted to let you know that I actually found this video very inspirational. I'm building a dungeon for a D&D campaign and my players are very new to the whole thing. What you saw as a problem for the Wind Waker's temples was actually a solution for me. I wanted my players to have the feeling of exploring my dungeon without them getting lost and frustrated and having to backtrack through rooms they've been through. I used wind wakers streamlined design of having you loop back to where you need to be to avoid this and I think it's going to work really well! I also gave them a few places where they can veer off in different directions, but you're never off the critical path, just taking a different loop that always leads you to where you need to be. I also used the puzzle motif and some of your earlier remarks about keys vs. items vs. switches all essentially being different kinds of keys. Basically, thanks! This series is a big joy in my life, and I'm glad it's become inspiration as well!
A lot of people tend to forget this, but contrary to popular belief, the graphic art style was NOT the main criticism once the game came out, specially from actual critics and long time fans. It was what Mark addresses in this video: "The Wind Waker" is WAAAAAAAAAY too easy, to the point of being detrimental to the experience. And yes, the painfully basic level design in the dungeons were a big part of it. The HD remaster alleviated it a bit with Hero Mode, but even then TWW is arguably the easiest game in the franchise. However, I think the game makes up for it with... Well, pretty much everything else. I still think it's one of the best games in the franchise and one of the best adventure games of all time. It's just that level design is its weakest link. No pun intended.
I said "once the game came out". What you describe is what happened BEFORE the game was released. And yes, that criticism was crazy harsh like nothing I had seen before, but AFTER it was released, the only people who still used the art style as criticism was people who hadn't paly the game at all.
I want to say, I REALLY love the graph system from what I've seen. I think it'll be a very important tool and concept in story telling games like DnD that I run in the future, and it could even be expanded to include information as well as items that function as keys or locks, something like in a detective game.
Hey Mark! Really Love this series! When this game was released, i was hyped! Saving up my money and reserving this title was a clear accomplishment. I thoroughly loved this title in the series. One thing that i do remember was their Innovative approach to how Link's Eyes worked in the game. Though the realm of 3D was being introduced with the capabilities of the Gamecube at the time, The developers paid much attention to Link's gaze to being able to solve problems and methods for players for being able to be solve them with this unique feature. Thanks for the video! appreciate your dedication to the dungeon formula and keep it up!
so why is backtracking a good thing? i like it that the game will lead me where i need to go rather than going through room i've already been through my objective is to get to the boss not take in the scenery.
It's because when you decide to go back to a place you've been you made that decision and knowing where to go and why is it's own goal and you feel satisfied when you're correct. When the game shows you where to go it's just the developers holding your hand. The sense of satisfaction isn't there.
One can also make the argument that backtracking can become monotonous and filler by forcing the player to revisit the same rooms and refight the same enemies. In the early Zelda games this isn't the case since there are usually many new things to do and try in every room once you get the dungeon item--but in games like Metroid the backtracking can quickly start to feel like an arbitrary gate keeping you from progressing through the game. "Can't go through this door because it's RED, you can only go through BLUE doors until you get the missile on the other end of the world (that looks eerily similar to your current missile) and THEN you can walk all the way back and finally start progressing again." Figuring something out and solving a puzzle is fine, but having to backtrack doesn't necessarily mean that you've solved a puzzle. Sometimes it's just wasting your time.
@@carlotta4th That's what makes Zelda dungeons so great. They're like tiny Metroidvanias, so making the choice to backtrack somewhere will only mean spending like 30 seconds speeding through a few rooms. That is, as long as the dungeon isn't mostly a couple linear hallways that you have to go from start to end, then back to the start to get in between them.
"my objective is to get to the boss not take in the scenery" You answered your own question. If a dungeon has a great atmosphere it's a pleasure to behave like you're actually an adventurer lost in a forgotten temple (role-playing is supposed to be an important part of role-playing games). Backtracking gives you the impression that you are exploring a real place rather than a series of rooms tailored to suit your needs. It also implies more freedom for the developer and more surprises for the player. The Skyrim dungeons are designed to eliminate any need for backtracking, for example, and as a result they all have the exact same linear sucky structure.
I don't remember a single time where the boss was more entertaining than the dungeon itself in any Zelda game I played. Backtracking always did puzzle far more satisfying because I was getting them by myself instead of being lead.
I haven't thought in all of this when playing the game, so I couldn't see all this architecture aspects. Instead, I was submerged into the atmosphere of the dungeon. I liked this game so much, and thanks to you, I can see from another perspective this aspect of the game. I really appreciate the quality you put on this series. I love this franchise and now I'm understanding it better! Thank you!
Personally I prefer the dungeons to be Linear and the over world no be non liner, which is why The Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda game and why I love it's dungeons. Also the Wind Temple is my least favorite dungeon in the game, I found constantly going back to the center of the Dungeon repetitive.
The problem is when dungeons are too linear, you're basically on autopilot playing them. You don't have to think or make much of an effort, and there's little sense of accomplishment or feeling of adventure in completing them as a result.
I agree with you that the dungeons in the Wind Waker gives you less of a feeling of adventure than you do with other Zelda games but I think the over world more than makes up for it.
Mark also really liked that Link's Awakening dungeon with the ball and the pillars, which I found SO frustrating :P haha. he seems to really like the mazes. I guess that's an aspect of dungeons that I've been happy to see go, although I never realized it until watching all these videos.
I think it's the nostalgia. My favorite moments in Twilight Princess are all linked to the parts that make it such a failure for me. It's weird. I loved getting the Master Sword, I loved Midna's Lament, I loved that "YOU'RE FINALLY GETTING TO EXPLORE THE TEMPLE OF FCKING TIME IN THE PAST" feeling it throws at you.. Just doesn't make sense to follow that with a horrible dungeon.
Having played breath of the wild recently makes me realize how important dungeon flavor is. In good zelda dungons, you can instantly recognize that a screenshot of a given room is; say, dodongo's cavern. Dungons have a core puzzle element, a signature foe, a signature music, a colors, etc. Complexity is part of what makes a good dungeon, but flavor also is.
Please please please pleaaaaase make this happen, there are really cool puzzles in those. I've only played the prime games but you could do one video per area, so the design of chozo ruins, tallon overworld, agon wastes, bryyo (ice, fire, cliff)...
I've always enjoyed playing The Wind Waker but never really spared a thought for the dungeons and how they were designed. For making me actually question one of my favourite Zelda games you've earned another subscriber!
I actually found the first boss of Wind Waker quite difficult, because the HD remake was the very first Zelda game I ever played. I was incredibly confused by what I was supposed to do, until I realized that my grappling hook could be used to grab onto the tail of that giant bird. When I finally beat it, I felt both proud and accomplished. However, once I knew that each boss's battle required use of the item obtained in the dungeon, the other bosses were little more than a bore. (Hey, that rhymes!) In retrospect, if I had known the "key item" trope going into the first boss, it would have been just as boring.
The key item used against the boss has been a staple across the Zelda games. My first Zelda game was Link's Awakening, and I could NOT for the life of me figure out how to beat the second boss. It didn't even occur to me to try to pick him up with my new power bracelet. Looking back, it's like how did I not think to use the item I got in that dungeon? But it was my first Zelda game, so it just didn't even occur to me. Plus, I was about 8, so there's that.
+mrbinkey04 Majora's Mask (N64) had a boss that you didn't necessarily kill with the key item. Odolwa is killed in many different ways, depending on the player's fighting style. In fact, both N64 Zelda games gave the players a lot of leeway in choosing how they as individuals want to fight a boss. Queen Ghoma can be killed just as easily with deku nuts, a generic item, as she can be with the slingshot, the key item. Link can kill Bongo Bongo without using either of the key items from the Shadow Temple. Ghot dies to either the goron mask or the fire arrows, depending on the player's preference. The key item for fighting the Majora's Mask is the Fierce Deity's mask, but most players kill the boss without unlocking it. My preference is that they make it less obvious how a boss is killed, and provide many ways for the boss to be killed, while keeping it very difficult. What's your preference?
Another original name I know not all bosses require the new item, but most do. I don't necessarily have a preference either way, as long as the fight is fun and engaging.
mrbinkey04 Seconded. As long as it isn't just USE ITEM ==> HIT WEAK POINT WITH SWORD ==> RUN IN CIRCLES ==> REPEAT, it's fine. Basically, as long as it makes me think.
Mark, I just recently subscribed to your channel and I have to say that you have helped me so much. These videos, especially in the Game Maker's Toolkit series are incredible, and have helped me a hell of a lot in my game designing. There are countless game analysis channels on TH-cam, but none of them come close to being as enjoyable and understandable as yours. The editing and the music and everything is just fantastic, ending in a video that not only provides vital advice to anyone aspiring to make good games, but is also just downright entertaining to watch for fun. Thank you so much, and don't ever stop making these.
I really don't understand how you've decided that linear = bad. "No compelling reason to return to a previous area"... So? It just seems like you've arbitrarily decided that linear = bad, and non-linear = good. There's SOOOO much more that goes into whether or not a dungeon is good. There are good linear dungeons and bad non-linear dungeons. Puzzles, theme, gimmicks, ambiance and mood, enemies, complexity, length, music ... there are so many things that can determine a dungeon's quality. But you've just randomly decided that because Wind Temple was the only non-linear dungeon, it was the only good one. Wind Temple was probably my least favorite of the game! Well, except for Forsaken Fortress. I'm not saying that the dungeons were very strong in this game, because they weren't, but it's hard to take your analyses seriously when I know you're just going to say the linear dungeons were bad and the non-linear ones were good. I barely remember which dungeons were linear and which weren't when I think about them. I remember the puzzles, themes, and music, and THAT determines whether I remember it fondly or not.
I think it's not so much that it's linear but that it's linear in a way that it often presents the solutions to you right to your face. So you are more going through the motions than thinking about solutions yourself. Like with the flower example, you don't have to think "where can I use this boomerang" because the dungeons leads you right up to it and basically says "use your boomerang here."
Right, and that's not as fun. But I find that these videos are basically dismissing all linearity. There have been some brilliant puzzles that require real thought and planning in dungeons that are linear, and there are really watered-down mindless dungeons that are non-linear. Perhaps what he doesn't like are the watered-down ones, but he's acting like watered-down and linear are synonymous when they're not.
mrbinkey04 I don't think that's what he meant to say but maybe he focused on that word too much. But I think he made it clearer what he meant by linearity with the examples he gave though.
To answer this, it's important to think about what sort of experience Zelda, as a franchise, is trying to offer and focus on. I think it's exploration. It has puzzles and it has combat - but neither are as interesting or developed as pure puzzle (Portal) or combat (Dark Souls) games. Plus, proper swordfighting combat was added in OOT and proper puzzles - well, that's up for debate but I'd say Wind Waker. But exploration is at the heart of Zelda. And so when the dungeons aren't allowing for that (because they are funnelling you from room to room until the end) I'm going to say that's going against what makes Zelda... Zelda. Yeah, that is my opinion. For sure. This is, after all, criticism so it's going to be subjective. But hopefully that better explains why I value a multi-layered approach to dungeon design (and why I wouldn't call for it in, say, Super Mario Bros).
If that's what he meant, I thought it was still pretty unclear. It still feels like he's saying linear = bad, especially throughout the series. Plus, I've heard the linear = bad thing from other people, and I just don't get it.
Hello Mark Brown ! I want to first thank you for this serie, I'm a studient game designer and your analysis is like a gold chest to the heart of us all ! So bless you for your hard work ! I want to thank you especially for this episode in particular, as a gamedesigner and as a Zelda fan. Wind Waker wasn't the first game my brother and I played, it's the first one we truely finished for sure, together (I'm not sure if he did finish A link to the past, and he did finished Oracle of Seasons, but not of Ages, and I wasn't with him when he did so.) What I want to implie here, is that i am this kind of "modern" player. We played this game on Gamecube, so we liked games before the Wii and the smartphone mania, but my first full experience of a game until the end was Windwaker. This "easy" dungeons were the only times I felt clever as a little girl, non-hardcore player, and I must admit, I like puzzle, but i'm not a good solver, so it just makes sense I could't finish a game before Windwaker. And the fact i could finish it, and it's a serious statement, made me a fan of the serie. Made me feel a fan of this universe. Because that's the first time I could embrace the sensation of completing an experience. And I know this feeling has been designed, so that lil girls and lil boys like me at the time could feel clever and enjoy a epic end of storyline without a ragequit (or, later in time, a internet soluce page permanently calling me in the back of my head). Later, when I was first introduce to Gamedesign at School, the first thing I learnt was the concept of "Exposition, validation, challenge". And we asked us to make a Zelda-like dungeon. And it striked me so hard because, hey, that IS what was Windwaker build like. The most precise application of it. And at the time, I was like an Architecture Student discovering Le Corbusier : "This is genius". This "single-layered" thing, it was my (and our in class's) "Cas d'école", nintendo style, and in my eyes, that is still a rule i think I should stick, even with the way we treat Signs & Feedbacks, we kind of always ry to make everything the most obvious possible, and yes, no subtility, because the teacher always says "better a shitty glow on interractible objects that no signs at all". Not to make gamers like you (I should call that "traditionnal gamers, or "first hour gamers") happy, but make the wide audience we are trained to target comfortable and proud to have finished (and recommand to their friends even if they are not "too deep into games". Thoses baby steps, they are my norm, as a casual, narrative oriented Explorer typed gamer, and as a wide audience developper. So I'm so glad that you are doing this serie and comment on what you think is a better dungeon, what it makes you feel like, as an experienced gamer who knows what nintendo is doing in this game and why, but still express the gap there is between audiences. Thanks to you to make a point of reminding of us about subtility. That a thing we need to shape for games for everyone. We need more of that, and I hope we will be a generation that tries to go into that gap, between complete discovery and mystery, and clarity in learning. Thank you again. Have a marvelous day. Get many cookies, a bright Isle Delphino's Sunshine and many Rainbow Robot Unicorn Friends.
The game may be super easy, but it's still my favourite game of all time. While I do think the first 2 dungeons are fairly average, and I actually don't like Tower of the Gods at all, I love the Earth and Wind Temples. Linearity really isn't a problem for me. I like to do the exploring outside the dungeons. But as a whole, it doesn't have my favourite collection of dungeons in the series (OoT and TP easily top it) but I think everything else about the game makes up for it. I'm one of the few that likes the Triforce Quest and I actually hated that they shortened it in WWHD. Also, Earth Temple is best temple.
Excellent video. I've always felt the dungeons in Wind Waker was it weakest point but never had the words to properly articulate that. This video explains the feeling perfectly. Thanks, Mark!
You've gotta remember that Wind Waker was rushed and unfinished. These dungeons were probably the equivalent of the pendant dungeons from LttP or the sacred stone dungeons from OoT; an easy start before the difficulty ramps up. It's very possible that a hypothetical completed WW would have 6 more Wind Temple-quality dungeons. Also, I feel like you ignored my favorite part about WW's puzzles, which is how subtly they're introduced with no handholding. For example, in Dragon Roost Cavern you have to use an enemy's weapon to break down a barrier, which is demonstrated to you by having that same enemy break through another of the same barrier with its weapon. And the puzzle needed to enter Dragon Roost, where you have to water the bomb flowers, is one of my favorite examples of puzzle design ever.
The dungeons were probably made linear to make beta testing as simple as possible and the testers only checking for one possible path. The Tingle Tuner in particular had a high potential to break sequence so they probably had to check for that too. The game was less than half what it was supposed to be.
+Montasser1992 The Tingle Tuner was flat-out disabled in certain rooms. That room in the Forbidden Woods with the bomb funnel gave me trouble when I was a kid, and it pissed me off that the Tingle Tuner was just disabled there because we're not allowed to play smart in Zelda! It makes sense to turn it off in a boss/miniboss room, but other places should have been left alone. What's so objectionable about multiple solutions? It's one thing if the intended path is much harder or less obvious than the alternates, but i they're about the same difficulty, why not allow the alts? Go look up a Portal speedrun for what I mean.
True, it feels like by the time you get to Wind Temple, that's when the more elaborate dungeons were meant to begin but then that's the last real dungeon. Still it doesn't change the fact that Wind Waker was sold as a finished product (even if they did have to scrap ideas) so the criticisms still stand. The dungeons have a momentum that unfortunately don't get to take off in my opinion.
This episode really highlights all the other episodes so far, I feel like I understood a bunch of ideas of what Zelda dungeons puzzles and exploration are made of.
With Windwaker I feel like they tried to make the dungeon feel interconnected so you had a bunch of these "AHA!" moments when you ended up coming back to a room you recognised. The problem is that Zelda as a franchise isn't particularly difficult, so it's not as necessary as it is in something like Dark Souls or Metroid that can have you lost for long stretches of time in a tense environment. I love Windwaker, but it definitely had the worst dungeons and bosses. The bosses were aesthetically cool at least though.
I'm currently making a game using Minecraft (don't judge me based on that; it's a great way for non-developers to make a game, and a simple enough coding format for beginners). It's based heavily on The Legend of Zelda, being essentially the only other games that I play, complete with collectible items, sidequests, bosses, and my own attempt at dungeons. Your videos have proved invaluable to me, particularly the dungeon graphs you've created. Constructing my own, using your graphs as a basis, helped me create parts of this game that I am truly proud of. Aside that, I guess that I'm just overjoyed that there's someone out there making these videos, evidently as excited and fascinated by the science of Zelda dungeons as much as I am. They can be bite-sized masterpieces inside of masterpieces, which is something truly rare in this world. I'm glad that more people get to see these dungeons for the works of complex, abstract art that they truly are, through the omnipotent power of the TH-cams. Carry on, my good sir. Maybe, in the end, give us a list of what your research uncovers as its method's objective few "best" and few "worst" dungeons in the franchise. (My money's of OoA's Jabu-Jabu dungeon for best).
This whole episode might as well be a gentle "f**k you" to 9 year old me who found the dungeons in this game pretty complex and difficult :p Thanks, Mark, looking forward to the next episode (and the wrap-up at the end) :)
Many people today are perpetuating a falacy in this industry: "Linearity is bad". This series seems another example of that. I for one don't see nothing wrong with solving self contained rooms instead or exploring complex architectures and have multiple branching paths... At the end of the day you're still going down a pre-determined path so why not embrace that?
If a boss is really hard I prefer a shortcut to it. It can be incredibly tedious if you just want to figure out how defeat a boss but you have to repeatedly have to plow through stuff you already mastered before.
Sweet Spirit It was probably a pun and I do think he at least likes most Zelda games, except SS. I do think Zelda is very holistic so its pretty hard to say a game is bad because an aspect of it is subpar.
this is still the only zelda game ive played to the end. i do agree that the dungeons are very linear, but i almost forget about that because the individual puzzles are so cool (i was also backtracking lots in the beginning before i understood how the dungeons were laid out)
Three years later, rewatching this video, I have to add a bit to my comment: while I absolutely loved the themed "puzzle motifs" and the consistency with which each one was introduced and built upon, the Triforce hunt was actually my favorite part of the game overall. Not only did it feel like the first and only time the game really let go of my hand so to speak, but it also felt like what the whole game was leading up to. In a game set in a huge archipelago with a talking boat, I was surprised I didn't get to spend MORE time sailing around like a pirate with a treasure map searching for lost treasure. It just felt natural, and in my perfect version of Wind Waker I would have traded a few of the dungeons for even more mysterious little islets and cryptic sea charts. Just go all out with the theme, you know?
I loved the sailing in Windwaker. The feeling of epicness you get from sailing across the ocean, with no loading screens, and the triumphant score is amazing. I also loved the triforce quest, because it gave me an incentive to explore the world more, and I felt like I was unraveling a gigantic puzzle, especially with the ghost ship. Windwaker is truly, in my opinion, the best Zelda game.
I'm loving this series - it's great fun to watch. Although when Boss Keys finishes, I would love to see you do a similar thing in regards to the level design in the Souls games; although with how hard they are I imagine that would be a challenge trying to get through each and every game.
Yeah, it was easy... except that one bit where you have to close the DS, that took me a long time to get. I don't think it's ever brought up later, too..
I have always loved this game. I loved it when I played it originally and when I played it in HD. I see your points on in the dungeons, and I wish they had been longer and more in depth, the game just felt exciting and beautiful. When I first saw the dungeons, I was blown away by the art style. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess and A Link Between Worlds as those are my next two favorites.
While the dungeons are easy, I still find them very satisfying. I think it has to do with the pacing and flow of each dungeon. Admittedly, I struggle listening to any constructive criticism of my favorite game of all time, but its worth mentioning that you are one of the classiest people on the internet that I know of. I'm glad that you still find a lot to like about the Wind Waker aside from the dungeons. Keep up the good work!
Mark, this is such a brilliant analysis! I too love Wind Waker, but I also felt that it lacked proper challenge. All this talk of linearity and backtracking makes me think about how you could talk about other games for dungeon design. Final Fantasy has always had cool "dungeons", areas, and puzzles (especially FFX). You could start several more series just talking about Final Fantasy.
I think this game's linear dungeon design is actually great from a one-off game perspective. When I played this game, I was 5. The room-based problems were easier to conceptualize and I felt a sense of success and momentum when moving through them. I'm now 25 and my roommate is playing the game for the first time and has never really played a video game before. She loves the game because she feels like she's getting good at it. The atmosphere and characters propel her interest, and the new weapons and items give progression. I watched someone who had not played video games before play It Takes Two and I saw the same sense of "wow I'm really good at video games?". It Takes Two is linear and introduces mechanics that are only used for that chunk of the game and even uses aim-assist in areas. It makes it fun, smooth, and fast which is made more enjoyable by the art style and animation. So in contrast to the series, yeah the dungeons are not as complex or interesting, but in this game, it's extremely enjoyable for those without expectations. Even now, it feels like the same freedom I'd get while longboarding down an empty road, smooth and beautiful.
I think you make a really insightful point at the end when you say you love the "sense of adventure"! And it think it alludes to the idea that a linear, map-boring dungeon/exploration doesn't necessarily mean the experience of the game is then going to be boring. The designer can, perhaps should, make it so that you have that sense of adventure, the sense of complexity, even if it's not totally there. Obviously for the die hards who love a challenging game, this wont be for them but this game is about the adventure, not the challenge. The two don't have to be synonymous.
This Zelda was the first Zelda me and my brother played and it felt amazing solving this now seemingly easy puzzles. It was one of the most approachable games. Saying a Zelda is too easy for adults, doesn't make it a bad game. No backtracking to bosses, obvious week points and easy jumps were perfect for me as a kid. I had my full of exploring with the shrines and pirates on sea.
Exploration of the same space has always been my favorite. As a player I value aesthetic above all else (art style and theme, not graphics). I always look up in awe of how its design is so clear and not misleading. I love traveling and the chest hunting in the windwaker. Wind Waker has one of the most cohesive dungeon theme, from enemies types to enemies placement even if you strip everything to white walls and black dots as enemies you can clearly tell which dungeon it belongs to because each dungeon is design with one clear motive in mind. Now I played Twilight Princess and more I understood that Wind Waker is not the pinnacle of Zelda Dungeon Design but the forgotten temple sure give me the the feels that no other game had.
the graphs you've been making are so interesting! I never noticed how linear the windwaker dungeons are... either that means they've disguised it really well, or I'm just terribly unobservant :P but when you started talking about the smoother introduction of puzzles in this game, it made me realize that this, and the increased linearity, are probably means to the same end: giving the player the illusion that they're a super-smart puzzle-solver who's skillfully navigating this huge complex space, while ensuring (as much as possible) that this illusion WILL be delivered, and that's a pretty cool trick.
I like this series a lot; just chiming in to say i don't think a compelling case is made that simplicity and linearity are inherently negative. In fact, I think that one could certainly make the case that with The Wind Waker's sprawl it might be considered an intentional counterbalance to make the dungeons pretty straightforward: the path itself being winding and diffuse, necessitating that the destination itself be something with a more defined Point A to Point B. But again, just thinking out loud, and I love the videos, and keep up the good work.
Wind Waker was the only Zelda game I completed. Watching this helps me to understand why; I think this game was an attempt to make the dungeons more palatable to a broader audience - I think Nintendo's been trying to do this in all their franchises for a long time, but perhaps this was the start of it. As someone who'd only started and not completed Ocarina of Time (I'd have been around 13 at the time), picking up Wind Waker didn't feel easy in the slightest (although clearly it was in a relative sense). For a new player, seeing the rooms guide you back to areas you'd seen before, and even just the very real sense that dungeons like Dragon Roost were not a disconnected series of rooms, but a path around a central area, felt rewarding in the ways that you pointed out in the OoT video. It seems to me that much like the divide between old and new school Final Fantasy fans, there can be a divide between old and new school Zelda fans, the latter of which have been more conditioned to appreciate the environments and sense of solving puzzles rather than for the explorative process to be a puzzle in itself. Granted though, I don't consider myself a fan of the franchise, having made that cardinal mistake of assuming the story in the Zelda games would be a credible focal point, but perhaps this sense of a change of development mindset will be made more clear in the coming vids.
I find Windwaker to be a refreshing title, because unlike other Zelda games, where the game is "go to this dungeon, then go to the next", Windwaker breaks that up by revisiting past dungeons, or doing something in place of a dungeon "trying to get to Jabun.'" Many naysayers claim that this shows a lack of quality, that because of time constraints they had to remove dungeons. I see it instead as an ingenious way to improve the game with limited time. I also don't see what the problem is with the Triforce quest. I hear people complain about it all the time. For me, the triforce quest was an amazing final challenge before being able to fight Ganon. It was a sort of puzzle in a way, trying to find all the islands and unlock their secrets. More often than not, the people I talk to that hate Windwaker never went exploring, and never even finished the game.
This linear gameplay is fine for some players, but I like to savor my Zelda dungeons like a fine meal. I don't want to rush through them or be led by the hand. I remember playing through the earlier Zeldas as a kid and they left a memory because I had to work at solving the puzzles and conquering the dungeons. I have little memories of the later Zeldas (and a few negative ones) precisely because I was led through the experience. *I* wanted to be the one who figured it out, not to be told what to do. That takes time and effect which are both processes that are short-circuited with all the hand-holding and linearity. So I don't remember those dungeons as well. I was especially disappointed in the Goron Mines of Twilight Princess once I realized the path forward was actually linear. That was not the experience I craved and we have to wait years between releases. The Temple of Time was the same (sigh) linear experience. And yet there was so much creativity on display! It could have been so much better as a non-linear experience. The whole point of Zelda is that it's an adventure. The original Zelda was notorious for telling the player almost *nothing*. So friends would try different things like blowing up all the walls and lighting all the trees on fire. And when we uncovered a secret (!) it was the best feeling! It was as close to pure exploration in an adventure game as I can imagine. But with popularity has come a corruption in what made Zelda great in the first place.
Linearity isn’t inherently bad!! I love Wind Waker’s dungeons because of the *style* and *history* they all have. They’re religious sites, ancient villages, tests from the gods themselves! I felt like the backtracking paths were more secrets than shortcuts. You can’t re-access them, there’s something special about that.
3:10 - 3:20 Yes, absolutely. Either you already knew what you had to do (in which case the 'shortcut' is both convenient and an opportunity for something new to happen), or you don't, in which case the game is giving you a hint, without patronizing you unless you're actively watching the game designers' work. More importantly, it wasn't fair to gloss over the dangly-spike-ball room that came just before the giant flower, because it's actually kinda brilliant. If you already know where you need to go, this room is a simple puzzle that keeps you occupied and helps familiarize you with specifics of how Wind Waker's boomerang works. If you _hadn't_ figured it out yet (remember, this might be the player's first experience with a Zelda game) this room is a chance for you to put the pieces together by _learning how the tool is used._ Considering this is the first dungeon, it's actually a brilliant little compromise: the experienced player can progress forward quickly to the greater challenges (as well as what new story and locations) the game has to offer, while someone who hasn't played a Zelda before is given ample opportunity to piece everything together without the game having to explicitly tell them what to do. This way the game is always helping you along but never patronizes you by outright telling you anything. And there's the _most_ important thing you should be accounting for: the game already _has_ a massive, multi-layered exploration-driven element to it... You know, that place you have to rigorously explore and chart out bit by bit, backtrack over when you get a new piece of equipment or a new treasure map, and can very easily spend half of your game traversing? The streamlined, moment-to-moment-oriented dungeons are a counterbalance to the slower-paced exploration of the sailing. If the dungeons in Wind Waker all took the labyrinthine approach then the game would slow down to the point of becoming slow, boring, and banal. Hell, a lot of people _already_ complain about the sailing being tedious. To put it another way, if the dungeons in Wind Waker feel like something from Ratchet and Clank, try to imagine what it would feel like if you slapped something like OoT's Water Temple in between a pair of Ratchet and Clank stages. Would kinda break the flow of gameplay, wouldn't it?
As I watch each new GMTK episode it becomes more and more fascinating to me how in some instances I totally agree, and in others Personal Preference causes me to think "great design!" while you have the opposite perspective! It has yet to be more true than here, where all the linear dungeon aspects of Wind Waker is exactly what made it my favorite Zelda of all time (until BotW). I LOVED that shortcuts opened up, and I didn't have to struggle to figure out what to do next. It made me feel more like I could ENJOY the game, rather than scrunch up my brow and be frustrated by it. I think my opinion might have been different in my younger days when I would play Tony Hawk Pro Skater with a custom character with ZERO STATS just to see how hard I could make it on myself, but these days I play games for fun, not "frustrating challenge." So Wind Waker will always hold a special place in my heart, as it set me free from all the parts of Zelda dungeons that made me feel overwhelmed by mazes and just let me PLAY. Love it.
The combination of design and gameplay elements in WW made it a personal favorite, right behind OOT in overall enjoyment. I didn't mind the linearity. I think it enhanced the game because so much of the overworld was non linear (being the overworld was free to explore). I like this series a lot. Nice work.
One sticking point I've had with this series so far - and I say this as a fan of your work - is the focus on linearity and overall structure than the mechanics and puzzles within each dungeon. I'm glad that in this episode you noticed this, but I still feel like reducing each dungeon to its core sequence of keys and doors is a gross oversimplification. Often each dungeon is chocked full of moments and rooms that are unto themselves very unique or engaging, and even when the overall dungeon structure is rigidly linear and doesn't offer a lot of choice, the dungeons can still be very worthwhile because they are a sequence of interesting moments. The Spirit Temple and Shadow Temple are two dungeons you seem to be harping on a lot which is perfectly valid when you approach them from the perspective that linearity is bad, but they also feature lots of rooms that are some of my favorites in the series. Perhaps we approach these games from different perspectives, but I think that your focus is a little reductive so far. Still, I am enjoying the series quite a bit as a long term Zelda fan, so I do plan to continue to keep watching. You have a soothing yet emphatic voice.
The Tower of the Gods was definitely linear on purpose- they establish right at the start that it's a giant tower that you need to get to the top of, so you just keep climbing and climbing. If there were bits where you went back down, it'd just be a very vertical dungeon, instead of a narratively driven ascent.
That's a good point!
Still ruins the aspect of a puzzle the dungeon could present.
I agree, though I wish they focused on the 'climbing' aspect. Linearity in dungeons leads itself well to the idea of slowly climbing a tower and feeling significant progress being made. It's what made Temple of Time in TP so good. Unfortunately Tower of the Gods falls short. You practically beam yourself right to the top. That final moment when you go outside and climb the steps towards the boss, you're robbed of the potential feeling of accomplishment. You can see how high up you are, but it didn't feel earned. I could get to the top of Everest if there was an elevator straight to the top. It's a missed opportunity for a great dungeon.
@@Patrick-ho3st the problem with temple of time is that the first part is a bit of a slog and its puzzles for the most part are pretty simple and repetitive, however, the concept works and it is probably the most creative dungeon in the game. tower of the gods was pretty underwhelming. the only good part from what i remember was the first part. the temple of time was not entirely linear. you can get the boss before getting the dominion rod. overall it is one of the better dungeons in twilight princess, but still a linear dungeon that is done correctly. hyrule castle tower in a link to the past was also well designed linear dungeon despite being mostly a gauntlet of enemies and very little puzzle solving. tower of hera in ALBW was also pretty good. alttp's version was not a bad concept either but it was underwhelming. snowhead temple and eagle's tower are unusual for tower dungeons because they are non-linear. the ice tower is also different where it is very linear then becomes less linear and allows for an optional key.
Just like he mentions return to hyrule castle in a link to the past 😄
Hello! A quick update
My use of "linear" and "non-linear" has been a sticking point throughout Boss Keys. That's my fault - you've gotta be careful with language as it can really muddy your message
I've used it to mean two things:
1) Linear = Player must collect keys, open doors, and use items in a specific order. Non-linear = Player is given freedom to collect keys, open doors, and use items in an order of their choosing
2) Linear = Player moves from room to room in a direct path to the boss, never needing to return to a previous area. Non-linear = Player returns to previously-visited rooms with new items or after changing the dungeon layout.
The first use is legit. The second is confusing. So I will be changing to a new set of terms for the second use, in the next video. Right now I'm thinking single-layered and multi-layered dungeons. We'll see. Join me for Minish Cap to see!
It's really cool how open you are to feedback and criticism, even on smaller points like this!
Thanks for clarifying that some, that does help understand what you are going for. I appreciate that, so thanks.
The only difference I'm seeing is linear w/ backtracking and linear w/o backtracking. They're both linear. In this video, you talked about shortcuts to avoid the backtracking. I thought it was clear. But it does bring up a good point, does backtracking when there are no other choices add any value to the game? You mentioned tension. Dunno about that one.
Perhaps better term would be 'inter-connected'? Since what you're describing is the same principle that makes metroidvania worlds feel more like a coherent place.
Mark, don't you think though that having a variety of "types" of dungeons (linear and non-linear) in a Zelda game is a maybe a good thing? My personal feeling is that an ideal Zelda game would have dungeons in many styles - some really demanding of puzzle solving skills, some more of fighting skills, etc. For instance, the Shadow Temple which is so often picked on, I think, is saved in a way because it directly follows the Water Temple. Those two dungeons are SO contrasting in the way they work that it keeps things fresh. After the slog that is the Water Temple (though a wonderful slog - easily my favorite dungeon in the entire series!) it really feels good to slam through enemies and freaky torture chamber-inspired traps one after the other at a high pace. Both dungeons satisfy different aspects of the gamer's appetite for play in a Zelda game and so I wonder about holding them to the same standards. For instance, the Shadow Temple would get a D at best for puzzles/mental demand of the player while the Water Temple would get an A. The Shadow Temple though might get an A for action/dexterity demand, while the Water Temple would get a C or so.
This all being said, I agree that Wind Waker could have used more dungeons like the Wind Temple, but I don't think more linear, action-based dungeons like Dragon Roost aren't without their place. Just a thought. Anyway, I love the series and everything you do. Can't wait to hear what you think of Skyward Sword!
I enjoy this series, but it has made me realize that many people love zelda (and video games) for different reasons. I enjoy the idea of a truly open, exploration heavy dungeon. But in execution this often is much less exciting than when compared to "linear" dungeons. Nonetheless this is a thought provoking series, and I greatly appreciate your consistence stance on what you like about dungeons. Most youtube video's I watch about zelda's game design (Usually titled "Why I HATE Link to the Past", or "Twilight Princess THE WORST ZELDA GAME") is usually absurdly biased towards certain titles without objective justification.
It's wonderful you've realized that. I didn't notice it till a couple of years ago.
It means different design philosophies may be used depending on the game and what the designer is striving for.
For instance, even though, I hate most design ideas behind JRPGs, I can't knock them off. They're appealing to other kind of players and are being designed with different goals in mind.
Naturally, there's some concepts that are ever-lasting, objective and unbiased e.g. frame rate. On the flip side, a lot of ideas that I may disagree with, are encouraged by some designers and players alike e.g. heavy dialogue interrupting gameplay, esoteric puzzles, overly simplistic puzzles etc.
I feel like most 'linear' zelda dungeons are designed to trick you into thinking you're exploring something while not being guided, that's the main point of linear experiences really, look at last of us, which has lots of dead end rooms, but it doesn't stop you from going towards them, the game feels MASSIVE...as long as you stay on the critical path, same goes for zelda dungeons, as long as you don't pay attention to the machinations something like the shadow temple can feel grand and sweepign and terrorfying, but if you graph the 'important elements' out the backdrop falls, the house lights come up and you see that the carefully created artiface isn't as intricate as you thought. it's deffinitely a different design choice that I don't think is worse, but then again most people think the water temple is the worst, while I actually really enjoyed it, so maybe I'm just playing devils advocate.
Yah I think if the linearity is well-disguised and the moment-by-moment puzzles are interesting, it's not really an issue to me - just part of the 'theatre' of gaming, to use your analogy. The endless keys and small rooms in ALTTP aren't actually as satisfying to me as a player I don't think.
@@andrewtucker94 I actually like ALttP dungeons, it just sucks to go back trough them to get back to the boss (which themselves are very gimicky)
In other words, you want the game to play by itself.
I think Wind Waker is the best way to make linear dungeons work. Unlike most other Zelda games that are more linear, WW's linearity doesn't make it any less fun or enjoyable. I agree that it can be too easy at times, but I still think it's a very fun game with a lot of positives.
Also, you were playing the Wii U version - the Triforce quest should only take like, thirty minutes to an hour at most.
And thank goodness, the original took way too long mainly because of the rupees you had to earn.
@@OtakuUnitedStudio Not to mention the fact that you can't get enough rupees for even a single map by default, making the collection of at least one wallet upgrade mandatory. Requiring the completion of sidequests to see the game's credits is a game design sin. They're called _side_ quests for a reason.
I love these videos and respect the hell out of you for how in-depth and well-made they are, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your stance that extensive backtracking is what makes dungeons great. Still, excellent video.
It's not extensive backtracking, I think - it's more the possibility of getting lost being absent. I think - or, well, that's how I feel. Zelda dungeons are always a bit of a guided tour, but Wind Waker really made it feel like a ride at a fair.
The 2D titles are generally more puzzly than the 3D ones.
yeah! I noticed that in his Link's Awakening video, too... he seems to really like the most-frustrating dungeons :P different people like different stuff, I suppose...
It's really hard to make a player feel like he's actually exploring a temple without it becoming tedious :P there definitely is a big negative side to backtracking in particular, but It can be done in very cool ways I thin!.
I'd say if you need to walk A LOT to test whether you understand the dungeon it becomes boring as the uneventful legwork interrupts your flow.. If you can do more exploring in your mind it becomes more fun again, I think.
There's much more to it but I think this is something to consider
Well, there's the two different kinds of shortcut. The ones that let you save on the walking through solved puzzles are one thing - the ones that drop you directly at the next step are another. It's not about the fact that there's a shortcut or not, it's about the question "does each new key open up an immediate path directly to the next one, or do I need to think about where to bring it?"
You touch on two reasons I'd defend the dungeons in Wind Waker: optional items and puzzle motifs.
They didn't offer the same kind of challenge that previous Zelda dungeons did, if you only care about finishing the thing. That's not really the sort of game WW is, though. WW leans much more heavily on exploration of the overworld than anything else in the series that I've had the chance to play. This is because the audience they most wanted to capture was people interested in the setting. They knew that with this time-consuming sailing mechanic, they'd need to target people who might enjoy the peace rather than be bored by it, and that works best when you're fascinated with the places you're seeing. This is also the reason WW has more overt references to the busted, confusing mess of the Zelda timeline than anything that came before it.
The dungeon design is informed by this targeted approach. I didn't perceive them as particularly linear and was quite satisfied while exploring them, because those things weren't optional to me. A boomerang is a boomerang is a boomerang. I've picked one up a million times, I know I need it, but what's buried at the bottom of the ocean over there? I HAVE to know about that.
As for the puzzle motifs: they feel good and play into the "magical object" quality I talked about in the comments of the OoT and MM videos. They're clearly important to improving the design ethos of the series, and WW had the most developed yet. The dungeons in WW are so tightly focused on it that it reminds me of the kishotenketsu concept discussed in your SM3DW video.
The trouble is that it's quite difficult to present something in that manner without a fairly high degree of linearity. To do this in a non-linear fashion, careful choices must be made about which intermediate-level puzzles can be parallelized, and then you have to figure out how to work that into the dungeon spatially. It's important to remember that, for people interested in fully exploring the overworld, the dungeons have always primarily been teaching tools, even when they were trickier. They show you all the ways your new toy can help you get to stuff outside that you had to pass by before. With WW leaning so heavily on this, trying to put so much of the great adventure above ground for the people invested in the setting, it's easy to see why they chose to compress the dungeon experience. They aren't quite like traditional Zelda dungeons, but WW isn't a traditional Zelda game. If they're all you're looking at, they lose something compared to their predecessors. However, when taking the game as a whole, the dungeons perform their intended purpose very well.
I like your ideas, but I don't think the idea 'They show you all the ways your new toy can help you get to stuff outside' holds water in Wind Waker (ha, pun). Most of the items you get in dungeons are used very sparingly in the overworld, with the exception of the hookshot and bombs - but that's because your ship uses them in completely different ways to those in the dungeon anyway. So I don't think you can argue they are learning tools, which means they should work well in a vacuum.
You're not wrong really, because that's how it is when you're on the boat, and that does account for quite alot of your time. However, the world is peppered with other ways to make use of your tools. There's all kinds of little microdungeons you can find while island hopping that call for different mechanical knowledge, and the big islands have more several more conventional "how do I get up there" puzzles.
007bistromath I remember there being a couple of cool instances of that, but in most cases you just had to get to the island and then perhaps bomb something. Unless I'm misremembering? I didn't play too long ago and pretty sure I got nearly everything in the game.
My own memory is a bit spotty; I've done it 100% twice, but years ago. I know there was definitely more to it than that, though. I remember becoming frustrated at more than one instance of seeing a thing I could ALMOST ride the leaf to, when in fact you need another tool to get to the right place to launch. Many of the aforementioned microdungeons also present unique item-focused challenges, like that archery trial out in the middle of nowhere.
For me the biggest thing that differentiates recent Zelda dungeons from the older ones is the growing emphasis on in-room puzzles as opposed to some sort of complex maze- the first two dungeons of Skyward Sword, for instance, are little more than a step by step progression towards the boss, however the individual rooms feature some pretty awesome puzzles and mechanics, it's just that the actual dungeons themselves aren't terribly interesting. But I do feel like overall there's an emphasis on this in-room exploration and changing different things about the dungeon, such as flooding the room in Skyview Temple, or when you get the beetle and use that to open up a variety of different things in the central room.
Obviously that isn't to say that it's a universal trend- something like the Sandship is an extremely complicated maze wherein you're continually changing the whole of the dungeon- but I do feel like overall the idea has become emphasis on the puzzles within a particular room rather than how the rooms are related to each other.
Certain of them felt pretty weak to me-i:e the opening dungeons, though they all have a fantastic sense of atmosphere. Lanayru Mining Facility makes fantastic use of backtracking however, and stuff like Sky Keep, The Sandship and Ancient Cistern are all fantastic examples of dungeons, not to mention that however weak the actual layout is nearly every 3D Zelda dungeon tends towards some fantastic atmosphere, the only exception in my eyes is Woodfall Temple.
Skyward sword actually broke this trend surprisingly for how linear it was. Skykeep, Ancient Cistern, and Skykeep are all maze like. Similar to OoT and MM
@@arjunabazaz1006 I think you meant Sandship because you wrote Skykeep twice.
Love how these videos are made, though I don’t think the linearity is inherently bad. Backtracking is generally something I don’t enjoy in Zelda games so I appreciated this change
Wind Waker doesn't have as strong dungeon design as other Zelda games, but it's still one of my favorites for various other reasons. I loved sailing around, the artstyle is amazing and Link is very expressive, the combat is the best in the series (though the easier difficulty kinda makes it feel like a waste), and the confrontation with Ganondorf is probably my favorite ending in a Zelda game, on par with OoT.
I feel like a lot of people think because the dungeon design isn't as strong, then the game should be 0/10 and thrown in the garbage, and games aren't really that simple.
If I was to build a Zelda game out of the best parts of other Zelda games, I'd be plucking a good number of things from Wind Waker.
Agreed, everything else about this game just felt so good that it feels kind of odd to play any of the other ones.
I was surprised by the quality of combat in this game. Despite the fact that so many of Link's sword attacks are dreadfully unrealistic, the combat mechanics actually do a really good job of creating the feel of a sword fight. Too bad the enemies are so... stupid. On the bright side, at least they could pick up weapons, and could fight unarmed. The darknuts seemed far more skilled in Wind Waker than in later installments.
I would say that Twilight Princess has better combat, but its combat is just Wind Waker's with the counters becoming active, rather than QTEs.
Also, while Wind Waker's choreography is a tad on the silly side, it is still far more realistic than the likes of Skyrim. As a result it is far more effective and fun.
Elouj Time Reaver I respectfully disagree about Twilight Princess having better sword combat than Wind Waker. Twilight Princess's art style is far more mature and realistic than Wind Waker's, which calls for more realistic animations; this makes the helm splitter and back spin horribly out of place. In Wind Waker, these moves simply serve as the generic counter and involve reading your enemy and timing your attack. In Twilight Princess, these moves are just spammed until your enemy dies. If they really wanted to give Twilight Princess Link a good counter that fits the art style, they should have done something more like Skyward Sword's shield attack. Wind Waker communicates the feel of a real sword fight through these counters and the fact that you have to consciously hold your shield up to block, whereas in Twilight Princess, Link blocks automatically, and counterattacks are replaced with spamming "hidden skills." The shield attack was a good upgrade, but they made it overpowered.
I admit though, Twilight Princess had the best cavalry combat in the series, and the second best ranged combat.
I forgot that they made the shielding automatic, I usually did not hold down L targetting during fights, so I never really thought about that.
I would agree that that aspect is weaker, but counters a definitely better when active.
It is better if you are punished for trying to spam them, but that boils down to enemy AI, which is abysmal in every Zelda game.
I'm quite late but Id still like to make this statement:
Wind Waker's Dungeons:
Easy? Yes
Straightforward? Yes
Simplistic? Yes
Fun? Yes
Engaging? Yes
Stylistically Awesome? Yes
*Unpopular Opinion Warning*
All in my top 10 Zelda Dungeons? Yes
Also quite late but the reason it works is WW didn't eliminate any of the complexity Mark was looking for, it simply moved it to the overworld. Whereas the dungeons were the main paragraphs of prior Zeldas, they were more like the punctuation marks of WW.
I am absolutely loving this series!!! I can't wait for skyward sword and twilight princess!!!
Jack Durston Hey again ;-)
Unidentiviable is there a video we're both not on?
xDDD
Just wait, he'll point out that TP and SS's dungeon design is even worse in regards to the "use item on obvious target to get to next room" BS that marked this Dark Age of Zelda.
The 3rd Option You're too negative.
I think more than anything this game is highlighting a split in the Zelda fanbase. I feel like what constitutes a dungeon having a "Zelda" feel now comes from to completely separate pools of origin. The people that started the series playing the earlier games grew up with an understanding that puzzles span the entirety of the dungeon (and brings in that idea of "non-linearity") whereas the people that started playing the later entries were exposed to more room oriented puzzles. In my opinion one is NOT better than the other and they serve the overall feel of each game in very different ways.
Despite what has been said here I do feel like Wind Waker is actually one of the more open Zelda games to date with the ability to sail and explore the map at your own pace. The fact the the outside world and the dungeons contrast so much in this way I feel is a very interesting design decision.
All in all it can't be forgotten that this series is focussing on trying to compare and contrast Dungeon experiences, and maybe the dungeons in this game out of context fair weakly against other entries in the series but like so many other people are saying there is soooo much more than just the mechanics and flow that goes into creating a quality experience.
Personally I love the story in Zelda but don't necessarily need "non-linearity" or deep exploration baked into my Dungeon experience, I prefer it to be an optional endeavour, but I know thats what I like personally and not what everyone else necessarily wants. Nintendo have given themselves a pretty tall order by continuously changing what Zelda means to newer generations. Must be pretty tough to attempt to serve so many masters especially as the series becomes more and more popular.
8:00 i beg to differ. In wind waker there is a part in the mirror temple that you have to reflect sunlight off your shield onto a curtian to burn it and reveal a switch. This is way more clever than shooting a block of ice with a fire arrow. the sense of self discovery that you get from it is awesome
I don't think I ever realized that's what you're supposed to do there, I always just shot the curtain with a fire arrow...
Although you are correct in your assessment of linear and non-linear level design and the value that it can hold for a Zelda game, I think it's important to simultaneously understand that the simplicity and linearity of The Wind Waker's dungeons can, in fact, be a good thing.
The 2D games set a standard of difficult dungeons with complex puzzles and difficult boss fights, and it fit the framework that the games were trying to work in. A complex and rigorous adventure requires mental skill, and ALTTP and the Gameboy Zelda games followed this ideology and created fantastic games because, again, it fit the tone and framework of the games.
Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask saw a slight departure from this, given the transition to the third dimension, although the same core system applied. The Stone Tower Temple and The Water Temple (despite popular opinion) are, as you said, great examples of fantastic dungeons with interesting, complex systems put in place. These games keep within the framework of an "ideal" Zelda game, making a fantastic game in the process.
The Wind Waker marks what is, in my opinion, the biggest change in the Legend of Zelda's history as a franchise. The art style made the environment of the game more friendly and relaxing, in comparison to the more realistic and darker tones of the previous 3D games. Because of this shift in tone, the characters gained more complexity in their expression and the environments became richer in atmosphere. The story was more intertwined, and the characters had more development. It was, in many ways, a completely new game.
The dungeons had to change as well, however. The light-hearted atmosphere of the game required the gameplay to cater to its needs. The dungeons and puzzles were much simpler than they had ever been before because it fit the tone of the game. The game would not have made sense if it had had dungeons in the style of Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening.
But, still, your point remains. The dungeons are, indeed, not as complex or interesting as they have been in the past. The "ideal dungeon" isn't nearly as present as it is in other Zelda games.
I would like to propose that that isn't necessarily a bad thing, however. The Wind Waker is a different game than most other Zelda games, and perhaps that is a good thing.
Well I guess we'll see how the dark and menacing Twilight Princess is - are the dungeons complex and challenging to fit that art style / tone?
I feel like most of them definitely are- the opening temple in Twilight Princess is a great example of backtracking all throughout a central room until you can finally take the last few steps forward and reach the boss. The Goron Mines are an atmospheric maze, Lakebed Temple requires a pretty solid understanding of its architecture, Arbiter's Grounds has astonishing atmosphere, Snowpeak Ruins is a wonderfully surreal take on a dungeon, City in The Sky also has some good back'n'forth and while I think Palace of Twilight is way too short, it's still got some of the best atmosphere in any dungeon, and even for the ones with some weaker construction (Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak) on the actual layout, the in-room puzzles are fun, the atmosphere's fantastic and you're guaranteed to spend a good amount of time exploring if you missed a single key.
I have a completely different takeaway than you on this, I feel like The Wind Waker was the first time Zelda dungeons really got interesting, and the reason for this is the moment-to-moment puzzle/gameplay design is so much stronger than it was in previous entries' dungeons. Players tend not to experience levels as overarching experiences, but on the moment-to-moment, so even if the structures of Wind Waker's dungeons are uninteresting, the dungeons are still great and fun to explore because the things you get to do in each individual room are fun in and of themselves.
I also disagree that the low level of difficulty is a bad thing. The Wind Waker was designed to be accessible to new players, in fact that's one of the most important themes in its narrative: passing the torch on to the next generation. To that end, the simplified dungeon layouts are 100% successful in achieving this.
"the first time Zelda dungeons really got interesting" you should look at the links awakening video
My takeaway from this video is that Mark kind of missed the importance of theme. He seems to realize only at the very end that every dungeon's puzzle is thematic; because the puzzles are thematic and the first two dungeons have loads of lore resonations, they feel bigger and deeper than they really are. Theme and lore also why I generally like Twilight Princess's dungeons better than Ocarina's.
The downside to thematic dungeons is, of course, a tendency to organize your entire dungeon around your key item. But the trend towards organizing dungeons around key items is omnipresent in 3-D Zelda games.
While I agree that the bosses are much too easy, even by Zelda standards, I think in this case Mark has missed the point because he's been looking at dungeons as exercises in complexity rather than ones in theme. I think it was somewhere around my second or third playthrough that I realized that they aren't supposed to be complex -- but they are supposed to be thematically coherent. The theater of moving through dungeons has played ever-increasing roles in Zelda games.
Lyseola -- Actually, it's fascinating. I approach the gameplay experience the same way I, as a writer, approach a story. There is a reason semioticists don't write good literature!
I completely agree. Windwaker has comparatively strong dungeons in my opinion - in ALTTP the mechanics were very complex and ingenious but I'd argue often overly so, and the designs, atmosphere and themes in each temple were often a little bland and interchangeable. I'd agree that for me, moment-by-moment puzzles are more engaging than remembering countless keys and rooms.
Well to be fair to Mark, this series analyzes design from an analytical standpoint. This series is meant to look at the structure and design of a dungeon, so thematic and personal feelings are often to put to the wayside.
Wow, you totally put my experience with Windwaker into words. I remember playing it back in high school and being somewhat disappointed with the temples. I couldn't explain why, especially because I had a few friends who absolutely swore by this game. Of course, Windwaker is still one of my favorite games in the franchise, but not because the dungeons are anything super satisfying, let alone that there are only four/five of them. I am particularly excited to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess because those dungeons are what got me into LoZ post-Ocarina of Time.
I love the minish cap, can't wait for that episode, so many things you talked about in the gbc zeldas apply to minish cap
Danielle Anderson mostly link's awakening
I can't wait for him to rip Minish Cap a new one. Wind Waker's dungeon design had problems, but at least it gave you plenty of islands to explore. MC just sort of hates you for trying to play it.
Angolin he doesn't really go in depth as to rip it a new one, but still I don't remember minish caps dungeons being bad at all, maybe the swamp one but not the other ones
Rip Minish Cap a new one? That game was sooooooo good! It was like if Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, and Wind Waker had a tri-baby. I loved Vaati and Ezlo. And the shrinking idea was freaking sweet.
Danielle Anderson I would have to play through it again as it's been roughly 10 years since I've played it to give an opinion of the dungeon designs. But one mechanic I remember from one that was pretty cool was based around using this air vase that you could use as a vacuum to blow wind or suck things towards you. And it had a lot of functionality and interactions with the puzzles in cool ways
Can I just say it was total bullshit you didn't win the GMA awards Mark, complete shambles.
i wasn't even nominated this year! ah well. i'll buy myself a chocolate medal and eat it
Didn't expect to see larry here :P He knows all the best youtubers it seems.
YES! The Minish Cap is next!! One of my favorites. Underrated game.
Everyone, he's not complaining about backtracking. What he's saying is that in a regular dungeon, you get the key item and open new routes in the dungeon. So like when you enter the dungeon, you see something you cant interact with in the first room. You get key item, return to that room, and now you have a new path due to that item. That's how you explore, it gives you a reason to explore old rooms to reach new places, which isn't just backtracking cause room X opened up and you have to walk across the dungeon to get there.
So yes, Windwaker streamlines this by giving you shortcuts to the next area. But it does that because there is nothing new in the old rooms. There's no route in the old room for you to open with your item, so it makes sense that Windwaker lets you bypass that. So shortcuts are good, but that there are no new routes to explore in old rooms are bad.
While I do see where you're coming from, I completely disagree with your end point here. I think the shortcuts to get to where you need to go, as opposed to backtracking through places you've already gone, is actually quite good. It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go.
But that's just my opinion.
Of course! Opinions are good. To explain my point a bit more - having the boss be at the end of a long and scary dungeon ramps up the stakes because if you die, you've gotta get back there. More enemies, more exploring, more traps. You don't wanna die because you know it's going to be painful!
If you can just get back to the boss room in five seconds with a warp then - oh well, no big deal. Reduces the tension.
*_"It's fresh gameplay, and it sort of respects the player. They know where to go, so why MAKE them go back through old stuff. Here, have some new stuff that'll lead you to where you need to go."_*
I dunno dude, I think it shows much more respect for the player to effectively say "Well, here's the item, I trust you know where and how to use it," rather than taking the player by the hand on a guided dungeon tour, just in case they don't know what to do.
Backtracking can be "fresh gameplay" if new items or changes to the dungeon recontextualize what you've previously experienced, so that doesn't have to be an issue. Think Metroid.
Mark Brown
Yeah, and that's fair, the warp pots definitely reduce the tension. It also reduces the tedium, so it's a double edged sword type thing.
Cheeseman
This is true. I'd argue the short cuts are their own "sort" of backtracking, and maybe they could be done in a better, exciting way, like with recontextualizing previous rooms, which you brought up.
I see where you're coming from a bit. Phantom Hourglass really capitalized on the taking notes mechanic, which really helped me, because PH was my first Zelda game. Notes on the map are nice because you can leave the dungeon and come back and it will still be there.
Of course, there is something to be said for the way they designed the dungeons. Windwaker seems to be designed for younger players, or people new to the series. For some reason, fans of the series seem to think a game being "easy", is a bad thing. Just because a game is easy doesn't mean it isn't fun. If this were true, no one would ever want to replay a game.
But again, going back to the issue of spoon feeding in a sense the player, this mechanic is very important for younger players. Even with this implemented, it may still take this new player a minute to connect that the vines on the flower are the same as the vines they had to cut through before.
While Wind Waker still is my favorite Zelda, your criticism is very valid, I also think WW is one of the easiest Zeldas. But that made me think about something and I'd like to hear your opinion on in a future episode: how could Nintendo (or any other developer) create a dungeon with a difficulty scale? I know the answer is the optional items, that advanced players can go after those and find a bigger challenge, but is there a way where the player chooses the "hard mode" and then the structure or the puzzles get harder?
Off the top of my head, a very cumbersome solution may be to make dungeons rely on a risk and reward system.
Think of Shovel Knight's checkpoints and Kid Icarus Uprising intensity system, in both games you can pretty much select the difficulty (mostly the latter) while appealing to different kinds of players. What the Zelda series could so is have minidungeons that range from easy to difficult and big dungeons that rely on this Kid Icarus-like system. That way a player who wants a dungeon tough as nails may have that experience if they pick the higher intensity, I mean difficulty. Naturally, to make programming easier, this would've to be mostly combat based.
You could add optional portions to dungeons that give you rewards, similar to the well in Ocarina of Time. Link doesn't need the lens of truth to beat the Shadow Temple, so he never needs to beat the well. The high difficulty dungeons could be the ones with optional items in them.
I need to think about this a little longer; it doesn't make sense that the hardest dungeons are the unnecessary ones that make the easy dungeons easier. How standard dungeons that can be beaten without some key item, but are much, much harder to complete without it. The key item could be in a fairly easy dungeon, allowing a player to do something easy to make something hard less difficult? Then put in place either a reward system for completing the primary dungeon without first completing the optional dungeon, and/or a punishment system for going out of your way to get the item that makes the dungeon easy.
Maybe the reward could be some optional quest item that you cannot complete a particular sidequest without, like the gratitude crystals in Skyward Sword, the poe souls in Twilight Princess, Golden Skulltulas in Ocarina of Time, and the masks in Majora's Mask. In order for the gameplay to remain challenging in the final dungeon then, the reward for beating the dungeons the hard way could not be overpowered, but upon completion of the sidequest the player should feel heroic and fulfilled. Maybe it unlocks an extended ending, like the ones in Majora's Mask. The punishment could look something like when Impa calls Skyward Sword Link a failure for taking to long to get find Zelda, resulting in her capture. It shouldn't automatically make the game more difficult, but perhaps encourage the players to step up their game, earn the love and respect of the NPCs, and be the legend that is Link.
Wind Waker, when looking at its parts alone, might just be one of the weakest Zeldas in the franchise........ but then, it's not. WW is one of the best Zeldas. For some reason, WW comes out to be greater than the sum of its parts; the overall experience is better than their parts alone. It has to be that everything in the game enhances the experience of everything else. WW is a really fun and good game.
It's good design. If you take the dungeons on their own, they are simple and linear... BUT they are also set inside a large open-world that requires the player to memorize/write down key details to successfully navigate it. So, a layer of complexity that once existed in the dungeons was not removed- it was simply moved to the overworld, not unlike Breath of the Wild.
I actually found Wind Waker challenging and the bosses hard when I was playing :(
Everybody works at their own pace it’s all good
Mark's more focused on a specific kind of challenge--mostly spacial awareness. Being challenged by the bosses in terms of combat is possible, but mark wasn't all that concerned with it at this stage of the project
He changed his mind a bit later on though
Soooo, I'm still not able to beat the wind temple. So...
@@raulsantandertirado4400 Where are you stuck? Getting lost easily, some puzzle getting in the way, or the boss being an absolute pain?
@@OtakuUnitedStudio I think childhood me just got lost, could not follow up with the map.
If I remember correctly I rescued a Korok then I just did not know what else to do...
I could watch your videos all day!
That's an AMAZING series, Mark! I had never seen anyone analyze Zelda Dungeons like this, with such technical intricacy instead of mostly subjectivity alone.
I really like how you use logical arguments to back up what most (including myself) would consider unpopular opinions.
This is interesting to me. The Wind Temple is my least favorite dungeon by far in this game. So much time is spent in the main core area, it takes a long time to go up and down from there until the turbines are blowing, and you often have to double up on that journey (once for Link, once for Makar), and there are a lot of large spaces with relatively little inside them. Even at the top of the main core area there are a bunch of windmills and neat looking things, but there is absolutely zero to do there. Conversely, I liked that the Earth Temple and the Fire temple allowed you to avoid monotonous backtracking and have shortcuts, or in the case of the Fire Temple, take you to a different part of a room you already know, but without the same agonizing travel times as in the Wind Temple.
Hey Mark, I personally think you have some of the best game analyses on TH-cam and making this Boss Keys series as a lead-in to a Zelda episode is brilliant. I would love to see you give other games the same treatment, when appropriate.
Given the visual style, platform and easy bosses I can imagine that they were trying to make the dungeons more kid-friendly while keeping that signature feel that would prime children into wanting the more challenging versions of the same thing presented in the other zelda games. I remember trying to play ocarina of time dungeons as an 8 year old and just getting way too confused. I could hardly manage the controls, kept forgetting where or what I was supposed to do and generally just did not have the dexterity or knowledge of gaming conventions to keep up.
"Kid-friendly"
Bro did you even play this game?
Angolin Admittedly no, the closest I've played was Zelda Phantom Hourglass, which nobody seems to remember *sniff*. I'd say my point is based mostly on what was mentioned in this video. To be clear, calling something "kid friendly" is not derogatory, Nintendo is well known for creating plenty of fantastic "kids games", and their is genuine value in deep and interesting games aimed at a younger audience. Wind Waker as described here struck me as just that: a good game, but rounded off to make it more amiable for a younger audience.
*****
The story is definitely not kid-friendly. The opening cutscene implies that everyone is Hyrule died after Ganondorf returned while Link was adventuring in Majora's Mask. The end involves Link making Ganondorf's head the new Pedestal of Time.
Seriously, man, get yourself a Smash adapter, the PC drivers, and Dolphin. WW is kinda weak in the dungeon design area, but it has a lot of other great stuff going for it.
Angolin I'm sure, I've heard some great stuff about it.
Ya do know that a lot of narratives aimed for childeren reference death and violence on a large scale, right? Also the opening cutscene doesn't actually imply that the Hylians die, it says that they all ran to the hilltops to escape the flood. But even of they did, look at a lot of Disney movies(Bambi, Pinocchio, Black Cauldron, The Lion King) and you can see that they explore a lot of very dark subjects. What makes them good for children isn't so much the content of the story, but how it is explored and the tone of the piece.
With The Wind Waker's bright visual design, optimistic tone, bright and cheery soundtrack, and complimented by it simpler dungeon design and fun but non-challenging combat, I really feel that Nintendo was aiming for a younger audience with this game. Which worked for me, I got this game when I was 7 and loved it. I feel that as adults we can see all of this dark content and feel as if it's not for children, but not realise that a lot of kids don't see this stuff at all. (Sorry for the wall of text btw, not an attack on Angolins comment, just wanted to share my perspective :) )
It's a shame - your criticism is probably quite valid (I've not played any other Zelda games to completion, but I trust your analysis), but the result is what I'd consider the least interesting episode in this series to date. It's probably due to the dungeons being much less interesting in the terms that you've chosen for the series, but this also makes what you say less interesting. It might be different for people who know the Zelda series much better than I do, though.
Jesus H Christ this game still looks so good.
He showed the Wii U remake, which has higher-poly models and some new lighting effects. Personally, I prefer the original.
Why?
It's only 3 years old, after all. This is the HD remake.
Miles_Metal... 8-Bit Metal, Video Game and Film Covers
The new lighting looks really ugly to me and kind of hurts my eyes a little. It reminds me of that time in the late '00s and early '10s where every game had ridiculous levels of bloom, except that WWHD also has ridiculous levels of gamma too. Everything looks like someone smeared vaseline on a camera lens and pointed it at a spotlight. The original had flat colors, decent shadows, and good shading, so aside from the edges of the models looking a little blocky it almost looks like a new game. Not AAA, but definitely better than most indie graphics.
EDIT: Also, the aspect ratio is stuck on 4:3 and resolution is noticeably lower than modern games, but run it through Dolphin on a good PC and you can fix that.
I've had you in my watch later list for 7 years. This is a great video. Finally got around to it. I love the clean map design you use.
Okay, so I get that Wind Waker is linear. And apparently that's a bad thing, but... why? Yes, non-linearity is nice to have. It's good to feel like there's more than one way you can do something. But is the lack of that feeling automatically a slight against the game? Why is the idea of backtracking supposed to be so pivotal to my enjoyment of this game? As far as I can tell, it's just a different way of doing things, and this video doesn't explain why I might want to think otherwise.
As I said in the vid, it's not about being able to do things out of order. It's about exploring one space inside and out, and regularly reevaluating rooms now that you have some new key, or some new item, or you've changed the dungeon itself. It's also about making the simple act of exploring the space an interesting challenge of spacial reasoning and navigation.
This is how Zelda started and is what I, for one, love about the games. Because if you want to play a game where you go from room to room to room in a straight line then, well, pick up just about any other video game series :P
Fluffy Heretic
He explained this with his first example in the forest temple. In previous zelda games you would be left to figure out that you needed to use the boomerang to cut the vines of the big plant you came across earlier in the dungeon. in wind waker the game railroads you straight to that big plant again.
basically, the nonlinearity of previous zelda games made each dungeon a large puzzle to be solved on top of the puzzles in each room. wind waker's dungeons lack this complexity, so they feel like just a series of room puzzles.
Mark Brown No I mean, I get why it's a good thing to have. My point was that I didn't see the inherit superiority. But I suppose that explanation is good as any.
My guess is that the superiority comes with the fact that it's original to the series to do dungeons this way. rather than most other titles, It's not a dungeon "run", where you just try to make it from point A to B as quick as possible, like the majority of titles that have dungeons, but rather, a deep and nuanced space that wants you to pay attention to the layouts of the rooms with attention to the details BECAUSE you are revisiting them throughout your journey, and finding new things, in a sense, mastering the space
It's not really that one is superior to the other, so much as one may serve Zelda's goals and other mechanics/design decisions better than the other.
I think the problem with Wind Waker's dungeons isn't that they're linear, so much as they didn't supplement this loss of freedom in exploration with anything. Creating puzzle motifs was a great start, but that has more to do with the intuitive nature of a puzzle's design (and immersive cohesion), and less to do with how engaging they actually are as problems to solve. I think the perfect supplement therefore would've been to create more daring, complex, and numerous puzzles that weren't quite so simple. They could've also made combat more complex as a supplement instead. Either way, losing the complexity and depth of dungeon layouts wouldn't have been an issue if the depth of other areas had expanded to compensate. I think that's where the core of the problem lies.
This is an old video, but the Forest Temple's ice eye switch has a purpose: it's to teach you that you can use arrows to shoot through fire and light things. Remember, Adult Link has no access to the Deku Sticks. So how does he light torches? He has to use arrows. But the problem is is how do you know that? You can't know that.
You do know you can use arrows to hit an eye switch. So when you see an eye switch covered in ice, you know you have to melt the ice. So when you see the lit torch, you put 2 and 2 together. Nintendo now taught you how to light torches as Adult Link with a neat puzzle!
you can also use din's fire. the forest temple was a pretty consistent dungeon overall but it also felt experimental with some of its puzzles. for example the twisted corridor only applied twice unlike in stone tower temple where the dungeon flip was the entire dungeon. then you had the rotating wall. this could have made an interesting puzzle perhaps in the central room where you had to line it up to other paths.
@@chaosprime1629 I've always felt the rotating wall would've been a great puzzle for hitting 3 Poe paintings. That should've been how you activate the Green Poe, and the timed jigsaw puzzle should've been used for the Purple Poe.
As for the twisted room, there should've been one more with a puzzle that leads you to Phantom Ganon (replacing the rotating wall in the original). And perhaps they could've even used one more twisted room in the Forest Section of Ganon's Castle.
And yeah, requiring arrows to light things on fire is only required a few times in the game IIRC (like in Ganon's Castle), but Nintendo still wanted you to know that arrows can light things on fire and the ice eye switch was a pretty neat way of showing you they can.
@@McDonaldsDude that is how i did it the first time. the poes was a nice concept for the multi key for a single lock (which originated in eagle's tower) but for beth i would have changed it to a different puzzle. i do think that a blue fire sort of obstacle would have been an interesting means to prevent that sort of cheesing in the dungeon itself while the water temple giving an alternate solution with din's fire worked. the forest temple in master quest added to the rotating platform a blue switch but you can technically skip this room if you know what you are doing. overall i do think the forest temple is a very solid dungeon, but it does have a lot of missed potential.
@@McDonaldsDude as for ganon's castle, that actually might have made the forest barrier more interesting. also the other thing i want to add to that video is that puzzle motifs technically go back to alttp, however, it was not done for every dungeon. one dungeon in particular that i can think of with this applied structure was the water dungeon. also link's awakening had it but due to most dungeons being non linear it is easier to miss. eagle's tower directs you with this sort of design and turtle rock has it the ice chunk puzzles.
I know it's not a Zelda game, but it would be really nice if you made an analysis of Okami's dungeons. :)
I mean, it's BASICALLY a Zelda game but with a much bigger focus on action-y combat than puzzles.
I say keep it to Zelda, because where do you draw the line?
If you do Okami because it's similar to Zelda, then why not Okamiden, StarTropics 1 and 2, Beyond Oasis and Legend of Oasis, Ys series, Gunple: Gunman’s Proof, Crusader of Centy, Golden Axe Warrior, Landstalker, Alundra, Brave Fencer Musashi, Oceanhorn, Beyond Good and Evil, Darksiders I and II, Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon, Mega Man Legends 1 and 2, Star Fox Adventures, etc. etc.
Cheeseman
Because those games all are either substantially less like Zelda or substantially less well-known and acclaimed than Okami.
TopHatPangolin *_"Okami is still the one most-like zelda"_*
No. I can pretty much guarantee you aren't familiar with some of the games I mentioned. Some of them like Oceanhorn, Crusader of Centy, or Golden Axe Warrior are more like Zelda than Okami is.
*_"Okami doesn't try to be a character action game"_*
That's wrong, Okami _does_ try to be a character action game to an extent. Certainly much more than Zelda.
*_"It's like trying to say Portal isn't THAT different from first person shooters because it involves shooting in first person, so its comparisons to Antechamber are mute... or something."_*
I'm not saying the comparison to a similar game is invalid. I'm saying comparing to _just one_ similar game makes little sense, and is opening up a can of worms as there are many similar games.
I think this is an excellent idea for a standalone GMT episode.
Hi Mark, I just wanted to let you know that I actually found this video very inspirational. I'm building a dungeon for a D&D campaign and my players are very new to the whole thing. What you saw as a problem for the Wind Waker's temples was actually a solution for me.
I wanted my players to have the feeling of exploring my dungeon without them getting lost and frustrated and having to backtrack through rooms they've been through. I used wind wakers streamlined design of having you loop back to where you need to be to avoid this and I think it's going to work really well! I also gave them a few places where they can veer off in different directions, but you're never off the critical path, just taking a different loop that always leads you to where you need to be.
I also used the puzzle motif and some of your earlier remarks about keys vs. items vs. switches all essentially being different kinds of keys.
Basically, thanks! This series is a big joy in my life, and I'm glad it's become inspiration as well!
A lot of people tend to forget this, but contrary to popular belief, the graphic art style was NOT the main criticism once the game came out, specially from actual critics and long time fans. It was what Mark addresses in this video: "The Wind Waker" is WAAAAAAAAAY too easy, to the point of being detrimental to the experience. And yes, the painfully basic level design in the dungeons were a big part of it.
The HD remaster alleviated it a bit with Hero Mode, but even then TWW is arguably the easiest game in the franchise.
However, I think the game makes up for it with... Well, pretty much everything else. I still think it's one of the best games in the franchise and one of the best adventure games of all time. It's just that level design is its weakest link. No pun intended.
I said "once the game came out". What you describe is what happened BEFORE the game was released. And yes, that criticism was crazy harsh like nothing I had seen before, but AFTER it was released, the only people who still used the art style as criticism was people who hadn't paly the game at all.
I want to say, I REALLY love the graph system from what I've seen. I think it'll be a very important tool and concept in story telling games like DnD that I run in the future, and it could even be expanded to include information as well as items that function as keys or locks, something like in a detective game.
I'm not sure that linear should be an automatic negative; back-tracking isn't required.
Hey Mark! Really Love this series!
When this game was released, i was hyped! Saving up my money and reserving this title was a clear accomplishment. I thoroughly loved this title in the series.
One thing that i do remember was their Innovative approach to how Link's Eyes worked in the game. Though the realm of 3D was being introduced with the capabilities of the Gamecube at the time, The developers paid much attention to Link's gaze to being able to solve problems and methods for players for being able to be solve them with this unique feature.
Thanks for the video! appreciate your dedication to the dungeon formula and keep it up!
so why is backtracking a good thing? i like it that the game will lead me where i need to go rather than going through room i've already been through my objective is to get to the boss not take in the scenery.
It's because when you decide to go back to a place you've been you made that decision and knowing where to go and why is it's own goal and you feel satisfied when you're correct. When the game shows you where to go it's just the developers holding your hand. The sense of satisfaction isn't there.
One can also make the argument that backtracking can become monotonous and filler by forcing the player to revisit the same rooms and refight the same enemies. In the early Zelda games this isn't the case since there are usually many new things to do and try in every room once you get the dungeon item--but in games like Metroid the backtracking can quickly start to feel like an arbitrary gate keeping you from progressing through the game. "Can't go through this door because it's RED, you can only go through BLUE doors until you get the missile on the other end of the world (that looks eerily similar to your current missile) and THEN you can walk all the way back and finally start progressing again."
Figuring something out and solving a puzzle is fine, but having to backtrack doesn't necessarily mean that you've solved a puzzle. Sometimes it's just wasting your time.
@@carlotta4th That's what makes Zelda dungeons so great. They're like tiny Metroidvanias, so making the choice to backtrack somewhere will only mean spending like 30 seconds speeding through a few rooms. That is, as long as the dungeon isn't mostly a couple linear hallways that you have to go from start to end, then back to the start to get in between them.
"my objective is to get to the boss not take in the scenery"
You answered your own question. If a dungeon has a great atmosphere it's a pleasure to behave like you're actually an adventurer lost in a forgotten temple (role-playing is supposed to be an important part of role-playing games). Backtracking gives you the impression that you are exploring a real place rather than a series of rooms tailored to suit your needs.
It also implies more freedom for the developer and more surprises for the player. The Skyrim dungeons are designed to eliminate any need for backtracking, for example, and as a result they all have the exact same linear sucky structure.
I don't remember a single time where the boss was more entertaining than the dungeon itself in any Zelda game I played. Backtracking always did puzzle far more satisfying because I was getting them by myself instead of being lead.
I haven't thought in all of this when playing the game, so I couldn't see all this architecture aspects. Instead, I was submerged into the atmosphere of the dungeon. I liked this game so much, and thanks to you, I can see from another perspective this aspect of the game. I really appreciate the quality you put on this series. I love this franchise and now I'm understanding it better! Thank you!
Personally I prefer the dungeons to be Linear and the over world no be non liner, which is why The Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda game and why I love it's dungeons. Also the Wind Temple is my least favorite dungeon in the game, I found constantly going back to the center of the Dungeon repetitive.
DarkOmega150 i didnt like the wind temple at all. Except the boss, that was cool i guess
The problem is when dungeons are too linear, you're basically on autopilot playing them. You don't have to think or make much of an effort, and there's little sense of accomplishment or feeling of adventure in completing them as a result.
I agree with you that the dungeons in the Wind Waker gives you less of a feeling of adventure than you do with other Zelda games but I think the over world more than makes up for it.
Every 3D Zelda dungeon is predominantly linear, it's how the linearity is handled.
Mark also really liked that Link's Awakening dungeon with the ball and the pillars, which I found SO frustrating :P haha. he seems to really like the mazes. I guess that's an aspect of dungeons that I've been happy to see go, although I never realized it until watching all these videos.
I love your work Mark, your efforts on this is awesome and well appreciated! Keep the good work
Can't wait to see you rip Twilight Princess' Temple of Time.
The most linear dungeon of all time. Somehow more linear than the Shadow Temple. lol
Oh man. Well, at least I'll have a new punching bag :P
I don't understand how some people love that dungeon.
I think it's the nostalgia. My favorite moments in Twilight Princess are all linked to the parts that make it such a failure for me. It's weird. I loved getting the Master Sword, I loved Midna's Lament, I loved that "YOU'RE FINALLY GETTING TO EXPLORE THE TEMPLE OF FCKING TIME IN THE PAST" feeling it throws at you..
Just doesn't make sense to follow that with a horrible dungeon.
Opinion: I love that dungeon. It might be linear, but its atmosphere is awesome and the Dominion Rod is really fun.
Having played breath of the wild recently makes me realize how important dungeon flavor is. In good zelda dungons, you can instantly recognize that a screenshot of a given room is; say, dodongo's cavern. Dungons have a core puzzle element, a signature foe, a signature music, a colors, etc. Complexity is part of what makes a good dungeon, but flavor also is.
is the series name going to change when you finish up the Zelda series? I'd love to see videos on the Metroid series :)
We'll see!
Please please please pleaaaaase make this happen, there are really cool puzzles in those. I've only played the prime games but you could do one video per area, so the design of chozo ruins, tallon overworld, agon wastes, bryyo (ice, fire, cliff)...
Thine wish hasth been granteth.
@@natiprot69 ré
@@natiprot69 se s
I've always enjoyed playing The Wind Waker but never really spared a thought for the dungeons and how they were designed. For making me actually question one of my favourite Zelda games you've earned another subscriber!
I actually found the first boss of Wind Waker quite difficult, because the HD remake was the very first Zelda game I ever played. I was incredibly confused by what I was supposed to do, until I realized that my grappling hook could be used to grab onto the tail of that giant bird. When I finally beat it, I felt both proud and accomplished.
However, once I knew that each boss's battle required use of the item obtained in the dungeon, the other bosses were little more than a bore. (Hey, that rhymes!) In retrospect, if I had known the "key item" trope going into the first boss, it would have been just as boring.
The key item used against the boss has been a staple across the Zelda games. My first Zelda game was Link's Awakening, and I could NOT for the life of me figure out how to beat the second boss. It didn't even occur to me to try to pick him up with my new power bracelet. Looking back, it's like how did I not think to use the item I got in that dungeon? But it was my first Zelda game, so it just didn't even occur to me. Plus, I was about 8, so there's that.
mrbinkey04 I'm guessing a lot of people who got their first Zelda experience via play have had much the same experience.
+mrbinkey04 Majora's Mask (N64) had a boss that you didn't necessarily kill with the key item. Odolwa is killed in many different ways, depending on the player's fighting style. In fact, both N64 Zelda games gave the players a lot of leeway in choosing how they as individuals want to fight a boss. Queen Ghoma can be killed just as easily with deku nuts, a generic item, as she can be with the slingshot, the key item. Link can kill Bongo Bongo without using either of the key items from the Shadow Temple. Ghot dies to either the goron mask or the fire arrows, depending on the player's preference. The key item for fighting the Majora's Mask is the Fierce Deity's mask, but most players kill the boss without unlocking it.
My preference is that they make it less obvious how a boss is killed, and provide many ways for the boss to be killed, while keeping it very difficult. What's your preference?
Another original name I know not all bosses require the new item, but most do. I don't necessarily have a preference either way, as long as the fight is fun and engaging.
mrbinkey04 Seconded. As long as it isn't just USE ITEM ==> HIT WEAK POINT WITH SWORD ==> RUN IN CIRCLES ==> REPEAT, it's fine. Basically, as long as it makes me think.
Your visualisations are the dream. I heavily respect the amount of work you put into these videos.
Thank you for this video. The reasons you mention are exactly why Wind Waker is my least favourite of all the Zelda games I've played.
Future games double down on Wind Wakers design flaws, though.
Mark, I just recently subscribed to your channel and I have to say that you have helped me so much. These videos, especially in the Game Maker's Toolkit series are incredible, and have helped me a hell of a lot in my game designing. There are countless game analysis channels on TH-cam, but none of them come close to being as enjoyable and understandable as yours. The editing and the music and everything is just fantastic, ending in a video that not only provides vital advice to anyone aspiring to make good games, but is also just downright entertaining to watch for fun. Thank you so much, and don't ever stop making these.
I really don't understand how you've decided that linear = bad. "No compelling reason to return to a previous area"... So? It just seems like you've arbitrarily decided that linear = bad, and non-linear = good. There's SOOOO much more that goes into whether or not a dungeon is good. There are good linear dungeons and bad non-linear dungeons. Puzzles, theme, gimmicks, ambiance and mood, enemies, complexity, length, music ... there are so many things that can determine a dungeon's quality. But you've just randomly decided that because Wind Temple was the only non-linear dungeon, it was the only good one. Wind Temple was probably my least favorite of the game! Well, except for Forsaken Fortress. I'm not saying that the dungeons were very strong in this game, because they weren't, but it's hard to take your analyses seriously when I know you're just going to say the linear dungeons were bad and the non-linear ones were good. I barely remember which dungeons were linear and which weren't when I think about them. I remember the puzzles, themes, and music, and THAT determines whether I remember it fondly or not.
I think it's not so much that it's linear but that it's linear in a way that it often presents the solutions to you right to your face. So you are more going through the motions than thinking about solutions yourself. Like with the flower example, you don't have to think "where can I use this boomerang" because the dungeons leads you right up to it and basically says "use your boomerang here."
Right, and that's not as fun. But I find that these videos are basically dismissing all linearity. There have been some brilliant puzzles that require real thought and planning in dungeons that are linear, and there are really watered-down mindless dungeons that are non-linear. Perhaps what he doesn't like are the watered-down ones, but he's acting like watered-down and linear are synonymous when they're not.
mrbinkey04 I don't think that's what he meant to say but maybe he focused on that word too much. But I think he made it clearer what he meant by linearity with the examples he gave though.
To answer this, it's important to think about what sort of experience Zelda, as a franchise, is trying to offer and focus on.
I think it's exploration. It has puzzles and it has combat - but neither are as interesting or developed as pure puzzle (Portal) or combat (Dark Souls) games. Plus, proper swordfighting combat was added in OOT and proper puzzles - well, that's up for debate but I'd say Wind Waker.
But exploration is at the heart of Zelda. And so when the dungeons aren't allowing for that (because they are funnelling you from room to room until the end) I'm going to say that's going against what makes Zelda... Zelda.
Yeah, that is my opinion. For sure. This is, after all, criticism so it's going to be subjective. But hopefully that better explains why I value a multi-layered approach to dungeon design (and why I wouldn't call for it in, say, Super Mario Bros).
If that's what he meant, I thought it was still pretty unclear. It still feels like he's saying linear = bad, especially throughout the series. Plus, I've heard the linear = bad thing from other people, and I just don't get it.
Hello Mark Brown ! I want to first thank you for this serie, I'm a studient game designer and your analysis is like a gold chest to the heart of us all ! So bless you for your hard work !
I want to thank you especially for this episode in particular, as a gamedesigner and as a Zelda fan. Wind Waker wasn't the first game my brother and I played, it's the first one we truely finished for sure, together (I'm not sure if he did finish A link to the past, and he did finished Oracle of Seasons, but not of Ages, and I wasn't with him when he did so.)
What I want to implie here, is that i am this kind of "modern" player. We played this game on Gamecube, so we liked games before the Wii and the smartphone mania, but my first full experience of a game until the end was Windwaker. This "easy" dungeons were the only times I felt clever as a little girl, non-hardcore player, and I must admit, I like puzzle, but i'm not a good solver, so it just makes sense I could't finish a game before Windwaker.
And the fact i could finish it, and it's a serious statement, made me a fan of the serie. Made me feel a fan of this universe. Because that's the first time I could embrace the sensation of completing an experience. And I know this feeling has been designed, so that lil girls and lil boys like me at the time could feel clever and enjoy a epic end of storyline without a ragequit (or, later in time, a internet soluce page permanently calling me in the back of my head).
Later, when I was first introduce to Gamedesign at School, the first thing I learnt was the concept of "Exposition, validation, challenge". And we asked us to make a Zelda-like dungeon. And it striked me so hard because, hey, that IS what was Windwaker build like. The most precise application of it. And at the time, I was like an Architecture Student discovering Le Corbusier : "This is genius". This "single-layered" thing, it was my (and our in class's) "Cas d'école", nintendo style, and in my eyes, that is still a rule i think I should stick, even with the way we treat Signs & Feedbacks, we kind of always ry to make everything the most obvious possible, and yes, no subtility, because the teacher always says "better a shitty glow on interractible objects that no signs at all". Not to make gamers like you (I should call that "traditionnal gamers, or "first hour gamers") happy, but make the wide audience we are trained to target comfortable and proud to have finished (and recommand to their friends even if they are not "too deep into games". Thoses baby steps, they are my norm, as a casual, narrative oriented Explorer typed gamer, and as a wide audience developper.
So I'm so glad that you are doing this serie and comment on what you think is a better dungeon, what it makes you feel like, as an experienced gamer who knows what nintendo is doing in this game and why, but still express the gap there is between audiences. Thanks to you to make a point of reminding of us about subtility. That a thing we need to shape for games for everyone. We need more of that, and I hope we will be a generation that tries to go into that gap, between complete discovery and mystery, and clarity in learning.
Thank you again. Have a marvelous day. Get many cookies, a bright Isle Delphino's Sunshine and many Rainbow Robot Unicorn Friends.
The game may be super easy, but it's still my favourite game of all time. While I do think the first 2 dungeons are fairly average, and I actually don't like Tower of the Gods at all, I love the Earth and Wind Temples. Linearity really isn't a problem for me. I like to do the exploring outside the dungeons. But as a whole, it doesn't have my favourite collection of dungeons in the series (OoT and TP easily top it) but I think everything else about the game makes up for it. I'm one of the few that likes the Triforce Quest and I actually hated that they shortened it in WWHD.
Also, Earth Temple is best temple.
***** I don't know if I'd want it extended, but yeah, I liked sailing too. Made for the best sense of adventure in the series.
Excellent video. I've always felt the dungeons in Wind Waker was it weakest point but never had the words to properly articulate that. This video explains the feeling perfectly. Thanks, Mark!
You've gotta remember that Wind Waker was rushed and unfinished. These dungeons were probably the equivalent of the pendant dungeons from LttP or the sacred stone dungeons from OoT; an easy start before the difficulty ramps up. It's very possible that a hypothetical completed WW would have 6 more Wind Temple-quality dungeons.
Also, I feel like you ignored my favorite part about WW's puzzles, which is how subtly they're introduced with no handholding. For example, in Dragon Roost Cavern you have to use an enemy's weapon to break down a barrier, which is demonstrated to you by having that same enemy break through another of the same barrier with its weapon. And the puzzle needed to enter Dragon Roost, where you have to water the bomb flowers, is one of my favorite examples of puzzle design ever.
The dungeons were probably made linear to make beta testing as simple as possible and the testers only checking for one possible path. The Tingle Tuner in particular had a high potential to break sequence so they probably had to check for that too.
The game was less than half what it was supposed to be.
+Montasser1992
The Tingle Tuner was flat-out disabled in certain rooms. That room in the Forbidden Woods with the bomb funnel gave me trouble when I was a kid, and it pissed me off that the Tingle Tuner was just disabled there because we're not allowed to play smart in Zelda! It makes sense to turn it off in a boss/miniboss room, but other places should have been left alone.
What's so objectionable about multiple solutions? It's one thing if the intended path is much harder or less obvious than the alternates, but i they're about the same difficulty, why not allow the alts? Go look up a Portal speedrun for what I mean.
True, it feels like by the time you get to Wind Temple, that's when the more elaborate dungeons were meant to begin but then that's the last real dungeon. Still it doesn't change the fact that Wind Waker was sold as a finished product (even if they did have to scrap ideas) so the criticisms still stand. The dungeons have a momentum that unfortunately don't get to take off in my opinion.
Wind Waker was unfinished? Who said that?
Ethan C. Hey dude heads up you're on TH-cam right now, not Google. Be careful about that next time
This episode really highlights all the other episodes so far, I feel like I understood a bunch of ideas of what Zelda dungeons puzzles and exploration are made of.
What!? The Wind WAKER dungeons were awesome! Though the Wind Temple is my favorite.
This series is amazing! I can't wait for the next installments!
With Windwaker I feel like they tried to make the dungeon feel interconnected so you had a bunch of these "AHA!" moments when you ended up coming back to a room you recognised. The problem is that Zelda as a franchise isn't particularly difficult, so it's not as necessary as it is in something like Dark Souls or Metroid that can have you lost for long stretches of time in a tense environment.
I love Windwaker, but it definitely had the worst dungeons and bosses. The bosses were aesthetically cool at least though.
I'm currently making a game using Minecraft (don't judge me based on that; it's a great way for non-developers to make a game, and a simple enough coding format for beginners). It's based heavily on The Legend of Zelda, being essentially the only other games that I play, complete with collectible items, sidequests, bosses, and my own attempt at dungeons.
Your videos have proved invaluable to me, particularly the dungeon graphs you've created. Constructing my own, using your graphs as a basis, helped me create parts of this game that I am truly proud of.
Aside that, I guess that I'm just overjoyed that there's someone out there making these videos, evidently as excited and fascinated by the science of Zelda dungeons as much as I am. They can be bite-sized masterpieces inside of masterpieces, which is something truly rare in this world. I'm glad that more people get to see these dungeons for the works of complex, abstract art that they truly are, through the omnipotent power of the TH-cams.
Carry on, my good sir. Maybe, in the end, give us a list of what your research uncovers as its method's objective few "best" and few "worst" dungeons in the franchise. (My money's of OoA's Jabu-Jabu dungeon for best).
This whole episode might as well be a gentle "f**k you" to 9 year old me who found the dungeons in this game pretty complex and difficult :p
Thanks, Mark, looking forward to the next episode (and the wrap-up at the end) :)
There's so much work put into these vids. Very well done.
Many people today are perpetuating a falacy in this industry: "Linearity is bad".
This series seems another example of that. I for one don't see nothing wrong with solving self contained rooms instead or exploring complex architectures and have multiple branching paths...
At the end of the day you're still going down a pre-determined path so why not embrace that?
Because it's not engaging.
omg I just found this series, and you're already covering two of my absolute favourite Zelda games one after the other? Incredible.
If a boss is really hard I prefer a shortcut to it. It can be incredibly tedious if you just want to figure out how defeat a boss but you have to repeatedly have to plow through stuff you already mastered before.
I absolutely love these videos. Keep up the great work, Mr. Brown!
Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.
Cheers
I like your videos, but I do think the WW puddle is a really fun puddle.
You can say that for No Man Sky's ( but you won't be original ) but not for Zelda, please, don't :'(
NMH is an extreme version of what he stated above.
I saw Turbo Button's statement as a pun on WW's setting, not a reference to NMS.
Sweet Spirit It was probably a pun and I do think he at least likes most Zelda games, except SS.
I do think Zelda is very holistic so its pretty hard to say a game is bad because an aspect of it is subpar.
this is still the only zelda game ive played to the end. i do agree that the dungeons are very linear, but i almost forget about that because the individual puzzles are so cool (i was also backtracking lots in the beginning before i understood how the dungeons were laid out)
Three years later, rewatching this video, I have to add a bit to my comment: while I absolutely loved the themed "puzzle motifs" and the consistency with which each one was introduced and built upon, the Triforce hunt was actually my favorite part of the game overall. Not only did it feel like the first and only time the game really let go of my hand so to speak, but it also felt like what the whole game was leading up to. In a game set in a huge archipelago with a talking boat, I was surprised I didn't get to spend MORE time sailing around like a pirate with a treasure map searching for lost treasure. It just felt natural, and in my perfect version of Wind Waker I would have traded a few of the dungeons for even more mysterious little islets and cryptic sea charts. Just go all out with the theme, you know?
Am I the only person who liked the sailing part of this game?
I loved the sailing in Windwaker. The feeling of epicness you get from sailing across the ocean, with no loading screens, and the triumphant score is amazing. I also loved the triforce quest, because it gave me an incentive to explore the world more, and I felt like I was unraveling a gigantic puzzle, especially with the ghost ship.
Windwaker is truly, in my opinion, the best Zelda game.
I'm loving this series - it's great fun to watch. Although when Boss Keys finishes, I would love to see you do a similar thing in regards to the level design in the Souls games; although with how hard they are I imagine that would be a challenge trying to get through each and every game.
linearity=not good
Weird argument.
SUCH an amazing amazing game! Incredibly well done dungeon review!
You want easy brain dead super linear dungeons? phantom hourglass.
Yeah, it was easy... except that one bit where you have to close the DS, that took me a long time to get. I don't think it's ever brought up later, too..
rip people with 2ds's
I have always loved this game. I loved it when I played it originally and when I played it in HD. I see your points on in the dungeons, and I wish they had been longer and more in depth, the game just felt exciting and beautiful. When I first saw the dungeons, I was blown away by the art style. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess and A Link Between Worlds as those are my next two favorites.
pretty comprehensive stuff here!! Amazing work mate!
While the dungeons are easy, I still find them very satisfying. I think it has to do with the pacing and flow of each dungeon. Admittedly, I struggle listening to any constructive criticism of my favorite game of all time, but its worth mentioning that you are one of the classiest people on the internet that I know of. I'm glad that you still find a lot to like about the Wind Waker aside from the dungeons. Keep up the good work!
You're already like my favorite youtuber and WIND WAKER IS MY FAVORITE ZELDA GAME tysm Mark
Mark, this is such a brilliant analysis! I too love Wind Waker, but I also felt that it lacked proper challenge. All this talk of linearity and backtracking makes me think about how you could talk about other games for dungeon design. Final Fantasy has always had cool "dungeons", areas, and puzzles (especially FFX). You could start several more series just talking about Final Fantasy.
I think this game's linear dungeon design is actually great from a one-off game perspective. When I played this game, I was 5. The room-based problems were easier to conceptualize and I felt a sense of success and momentum when moving through them. I'm now 25 and my roommate is playing the game for the first time and has never really played a video game before. She loves the game because she feels like she's getting good at it. The atmosphere and characters propel her interest, and the new weapons and items give progression. I watched someone who had not played video games before play It Takes Two and I saw the same sense of "wow I'm really good at video games?". It Takes Two is linear and introduces mechanics that are only used for that chunk of the game and even uses aim-assist in areas. It makes it fun, smooth, and fast which is made more enjoyable by the art style and animation. So in contrast to the series, yeah the dungeons are not as complex or interesting, but in this game, it's extremely enjoyable for those without expectations. Even now, it feels like the same freedom I'd get while longboarding down an empty road, smooth and beautiful.
This series is awesome. I'm subscribing and looking forward to the next episode. Keep up the great work.
I think you make a really insightful point at the end when you say you love the "sense of adventure"! And it think it alludes to the idea that a linear, map-boring dungeon/exploration doesn't necessarily mean the experience of the game is then going to be boring. The designer can, perhaps should, make it so that you have that sense of adventure, the sense of complexity, even if it's not totally there. Obviously for the die hards who love a challenging game, this wont be for them but this game is about the adventure, not the challenge. The two don't have to be synonymous.
This Zelda was the first Zelda me and my brother played and it felt amazing solving this now seemingly easy puzzles. It was one of the most approachable games. Saying a Zelda is too easy for adults, doesn't make it a bad game. No backtracking to bosses, obvious week points and easy jumps were perfect for me as a kid. I had my full of exploring with the shrines and pirates on sea.
Exploration of the same space has always been my favorite. As a player I value aesthetic above all else (art style and theme, not graphics). I always look up in awe of how its design is so clear and not misleading. I love traveling and the chest hunting in the windwaker.
Wind Waker has one of the most cohesive dungeon theme, from enemies types to enemies placement even if you strip everything to white walls and black dots as enemies you can clearly tell which dungeon it belongs to because each dungeon is design with one clear motive in mind.
Now I played Twilight Princess and more I understood that Wind Waker is not the pinnacle of Zelda Dungeon Design but the forgotten temple sure give me the the feels that no other game had.
This game absolutely oozes charm, a Zelda essential for me. I love it
the graphs you've been making are so interesting! I never noticed how linear the windwaker dungeons are... either that means they've disguised it really well, or I'm just terribly unobservant :P but when you started talking about the smoother introduction of puzzles in this game, it made me realize that this, and the increased linearity, are probably means to the same end: giving the player the illusion that they're a super-smart puzzle-solver who's skillfully navigating this huge complex space, while ensuring (as much as possible) that this illusion WILL be delivered, and that's a pretty cool trick.
I don't understand anything but I keep watching The videos.
Perhaps its because they are so well made or your voice it's very calm and Charming
I like this series a lot; just chiming in to say i don't think a compelling case is made that simplicity and linearity are inherently negative. In fact, I think that one could certainly make the case that with The Wind Waker's sprawl it might be considered an intentional counterbalance to make the dungeons pretty straightforward: the path itself being winding and diffuse, necessitating that the destination itself be something with a more defined Point A to Point B. But again, just thinking out loud, and I love the videos, and keep up the good work.
Wind Waker was the only Zelda game I completed. Watching this helps me to understand why; I think this game was an attempt to make the dungeons more palatable to a broader audience - I think Nintendo's been trying to do this in all their franchises for a long time, but perhaps this was the start of it. As someone who'd only started and not completed Ocarina of Time (I'd have been around 13 at the time), picking up Wind Waker didn't feel easy in the slightest (although clearly it was in a relative sense). For a new player, seeing the rooms guide you back to areas you'd seen before, and even just the very real sense that dungeons like Dragon Roost were not a disconnected series of rooms, but a path around a central area, felt rewarding in the ways that you pointed out in the OoT video.
It seems to me that much like the divide between old and new school Final Fantasy fans, there can be a divide between old and new school Zelda fans, the latter of which have been more conditioned to appreciate the environments and sense of solving puzzles rather than for the explorative process to be a puzzle in itself. Granted though, I don't consider myself a fan of the franchise, having made that cardinal mistake of assuming the story in the Zelda games would be a credible focal point, but perhaps this sense of a change of development mindset will be made more clear in the coming vids.
I find Windwaker to be a refreshing title, because unlike other Zelda games, where the game is "go to this dungeon, then go to the next", Windwaker breaks that up by revisiting past dungeons, or doing something in place of a dungeon "trying to get to Jabun.'" Many naysayers claim that this shows a lack of quality, that because of time constraints they had to remove dungeons. I see it instead as an ingenious way to improve the game with limited time. I also don't see what the problem is with the Triforce quest. I hear people complain about it all the time.
For me, the triforce quest was an amazing final challenge before being able to fight Ganon. It was a sort of puzzle in a way, trying to find all the islands and unlock their secrets. More often than not, the people I talk to that hate Windwaker never went exploring, and never even finished the game.
This linear gameplay is fine for some players, but I like to savor my Zelda dungeons like a fine meal. I don't want to rush through them or be led by the hand. I remember playing through the earlier Zeldas as a kid and they left a memory because I had to work at solving the puzzles and conquering the dungeons. I have little memories of the later Zeldas (and a few negative ones) precisely because I was led through the experience. *I* wanted to be the one who figured it out, not to be told what to do. That takes time and effect which are both processes that are short-circuited with all the hand-holding and linearity. So I don't remember those dungeons as well. I was especially disappointed in the
Goron Mines of Twilight Princess once I realized the path forward was actually linear. That was not the experience I craved and we have to wait years between releases. The Temple of Time was the same (sigh) linear experience. And yet there was so much creativity on display! It could have been so much better as a non-linear experience.
The whole point of Zelda is that it's an adventure. The original Zelda was notorious for telling the player almost *nothing*. So friends would try different things like blowing up all the walls and lighting all the trees on fire. And when we uncovered a secret (!) it was the best feeling! It was as close to pure exploration in an adventure game as I can imagine. But with popularity has come a corruption in what made Zelda great in the first place.
I've always really not enjoyed the dungeons in this game and this video helped me realize why. Nicely done.
Linearity isn’t inherently bad!! I love Wind Waker’s dungeons because of the *style* and *history* they all have. They’re religious sites, ancient villages, tests from the gods themselves! I felt like the backtracking paths were more secrets than shortcuts. You can’t re-access them, there’s something special about that.
3:10 - 3:20
Yes, absolutely.
Either you already knew what you had to do (in which case the 'shortcut' is both convenient and an opportunity for something new to happen), or you don't, in which case the game is giving you a hint, without patronizing you unless you're actively watching the game designers' work.
More importantly, it wasn't fair to gloss over the dangly-spike-ball room that came just before the giant flower, because it's actually kinda brilliant.
If you already know where you need to go, this room is a simple puzzle that keeps you occupied and helps familiarize you with specifics of how Wind Waker's boomerang works.
If you _hadn't_ figured it out yet (remember, this might be the player's first experience with a Zelda game) this room is a chance for you to put the pieces together by _learning how the tool is used._
Considering this is the first dungeon, it's actually a brilliant little compromise: the experienced player can progress forward quickly to the greater challenges (as well as what new story and locations) the game has to offer, while someone who hasn't played a Zelda before is given ample opportunity to piece everything together without the game having to explicitly tell them what to do. This way the game is always helping you along but never patronizes you by outright telling you anything.
And there's the _most_ important thing you should be accounting for: the game already _has_ a massive, multi-layered exploration-driven element to it...
You know, that place you have to rigorously explore and chart out bit by bit, backtrack over when you get a new piece of equipment or a new treasure map, and can very easily spend half of your game traversing?
The streamlined, moment-to-moment-oriented dungeons are a counterbalance to the slower-paced exploration of the sailing. If the dungeons in Wind Waker all took the labyrinthine approach then the game would slow down to the point of becoming slow, boring, and banal. Hell, a lot of people _already_ complain about the sailing being tedious.
To put it another way, if the dungeons in Wind Waker feel like something from Ratchet and Clank, try to imagine what it would feel like if you slapped something like OoT's Water Temple in between a pair of Ratchet and Clank stages.
Would kinda break the flow of gameplay, wouldn't it?
As I watch each new GMTK episode it becomes more and more fascinating to me how in some instances I totally agree, and in others Personal Preference causes me to think "great design!" while you have the opposite perspective! It has yet to be more true than here, where all the linear dungeon aspects of Wind Waker is exactly what made it my favorite Zelda of all time (until BotW). I LOVED that shortcuts opened up, and I didn't have to struggle to figure out what to do next. It made me feel more like I could ENJOY the game, rather than scrunch up my brow and be frustrated by it.
I think my opinion might have been different in my younger days when I would play Tony Hawk Pro Skater with a custom character with ZERO STATS just to see how hard I could make it on myself, but these days I play games for fun, not "frustrating challenge." So Wind Waker will always hold a special place in my heart, as it set me free from all the parts of Zelda dungeons that made me feel overwhelmed by mazes and just let me PLAY. Love it.
The combination of design and gameplay elements in WW made it a personal favorite, right behind OOT in overall enjoyment. I didn't mind the linearity. I think it enhanced the game because so much of the overworld was non linear (being the overworld was free to explore). I like this series a lot. Nice work.
Your eloquence is astounding. Even when you're picking apart my favorite zelda game, I can't help but agree with you.
One sticking point I've had with this series so far - and I say this as a fan of your work - is the focus on linearity and overall structure than the mechanics and puzzles within each dungeon. I'm glad that in this episode you noticed this, but I still feel like reducing each dungeon to its core sequence of keys and doors is a gross oversimplification. Often each dungeon is chocked full of moments and rooms that are unto themselves very unique or engaging, and even when the overall dungeon structure is rigidly linear and doesn't offer a lot of choice, the dungeons can still be very worthwhile because they are a sequence of interesting moments. The Spirit Temple and Shadow Temple are two dungeons you seem to be harping on a lot which is perfectly valid when you approach them from the perspective that linearity is bad, but they also feature lots of rooms that are some of my favorites in the series. Perhaps we approach these games from different perspectives, but I think that your focus is a little reductive so far. Still, I am enjoying the series quite a bit as a long term Zelda fan, so I do plan to continue to keep watching. You have a soothing yet emphatic voice.
The only big take away I got from this video was that I wish there were more dungeons in WW. My favorite Zelda.