It could be detrimental for....society, the world...? Personally, I still don't exactly get what "identity" is. Is it the total of the social clubs you belong to? It makes no sense to me, maybe because I don't feel I belong to any clubs really. I'm Dutch but I don't particularly like the country, I'm a feminist but feminists often really annoy me, I'm a lefty but leftist parties everywhere have completely lost the plot it seems .....and so on. So, I'm just me...trying to find my way through life....and I think all of us are like me in that way independent of any ridiculous labels we like to stick on everyone, everything and ourselves. It's a really good feeling to be open, to just learn, and to change your mind in a major way every now and then. That probably didn't answer the question, sorry not sorry I guess. I'm looking forward to this interview. I don't know who he is so I'll find out. I liked your interview with Graham Linehan and Maya Forstater. I've known about them for many years. I liked your straightforward, uncomplicated way of doing it.
There's a misconception that it's exploded because of the left., but while yes of course that's partly true, it's also blown up as the left's priority by right wing media and newspapers - go look back through the daily mail and most of their stories are either about royals, the curse of 'woke' (usually involving identity ) or eco protesters. Very very little about the economy or different approaches or solutions. It's become how the right identify the left now - it's all 'woke''. It's focussed on to distract, particulary after austerity , while 'the economy' ia still talked about like it's a beast we have to placate, as opposed to something human beings have created and can change themselves. At a time when resouces, species diversity and ecosystems are depleting, when whole countries have been rendered uninhabitable by war, producing mass waves of refugees, when the supermatkets , energy companies etc are squeezing us for as much as we have while they can, they don't want to talk about the genuine problems we face, but instead focus on 'woke' . For the newspaper owners it makes sense because hey, they're billionaires so the economy works for them. And if that's all you constantly read about, what else are people going to discuss?
@@treesart6914 "identity" in this sense is a way to divide people along multivariant oppressor/oppressed, and good/bad categories. Intersectionality is when you make Venn diagrams out of your categories. It's a Marxian conception. It makes you primarily a member of (a) group(s ), rather than primarily an individual. It also focuses your attention on ways you are different from others, hence encouraging you to feel alienated - including alienation from people in your own group, when you don't feel a special connection to them, as you describe here.
My family were hidden Jew's my mother was born in Scotland and my dad in Belfast..I went to church and followed Jesus before we realised our lineage. It's been an interesting journey for our family. We do follow the Yeshua/Jesus type of Judaism...we travelled from Sub Saharan regions on mum's side and Spanish/Portuguese on dad's side. The markers were interesting. I went to Israel in 2018..loved it. Felt like home. It's an interesting journey for my family, but very inriching. 😊
I saw Baddiel on Triggernometry a few years ago, he wrote a book Jews Don't Count. Baddiel was annoyed that Jews weren't included in the group of oppressed and were seen as an oppressor. Francis and Konstantin were asking Baddiel instead of trying get Jews into the oppressed group, it would be better to do away with the oppressed/oppressor system.
He’s not “trying to get Jews into the oppressed group.” Jews were being oppressed for centuries before he came along. It’s the denial of that fact that he’s highlighting.
@@Historian212 Is there anybody who isn’t in an insane asylum on this planet who believes Jews weren’t oppressed in the past? Harping back to historical oppression from a position of privilege all is just a bit cheesy, it’s all a bit P. Diddy rolling in his millions rapping about day to day life in the hood.
I feel like he’s more upset that Jews are left out of woke identity politics, rather than having an issue with the flaws of identity politics at present. I think the first part is valid and something I think about a lot, but I found it jarring that he is so apprehensive to critique any part of identity politics except for the one that affect him and his identity directly
And when he started going after comedy and what you can and can’t joke about I felt uncomfortable. While it is a nuanced conversation his self interested view and somewhat censoring/you can’t say that language is a little unsettling. He’s hardly a heretic, he just wants to be included in the identity club
Not really, it’s ‘Identity politics is a fantastic racket, I want in, it’s not fair’. He’s happy for white people to be excluded, as long as Jews don’t count as white. An odd turnaround if you think about it, but that’s modern Britain .
Yes. He's very unclear in his thinking. He even makes a flippant aside at one point that online pressure is not real, then later claims that internet outrage can stop a movie going ahead. Maybe he should ask people who've been cancelled by losers on twitter whether online pressure is real or not.
Baddiel might think the "far right" are a greater danger to Jews than the left but he omits the elephant in the room. The "far right" isn't alligning & sympathetic to radical Islam, the left is. He also interrupts and dismisses Andrew, claiming it's not "interesting" to him that Andrew basically lost his career because he is white. I thought that was particuarly rude. He seems quite confused about his own progressivism. He says he's interested in the truth but actually I see a lot of avoidance and mixed messages. I am Jewish and I really don't agree with his stance. He acknowledges that he comes off like he wants to just join in the "hierarchy of victimhood" (even claiming he invented the term 🙄), but claims thats NOT what he's doing. Yet simultaenously praises identity politics. He obviously doesn't care about what happened to Andrew about his skin colour. But jumps on the comment about being Jewish. I agree that this is awful but thats not the reason Andrew lost work. Its bcs he's white. If Baddiel is so interested in "the truth" he wouldn't brush this aside so flippantly unless he thinks its fine or is scared to talk about it. Also, he might want to look into the history of Claudine Gay. She destroyed a black academic who was researching inconvenient truths. I think he wants to do the impossible, remain a progressive, and point out all the hypocrisies. He wants to praise identity politics yet ditch the bits he doesn't like. Which is the way "Jews Don't Count". Jews will never be part of the hierarchy of the progressive stack. Pointing it out won't change that. It's baked in! His defensiveness when Andrew points out that the world has changed (he didn't even let him finish) just shows how nervous he is about even the slightest whiff of someone touching the fact that anti-white racism IS a thing now. He won't even go there. So much for him only being interested in "the truth". Bullshit.
he reminds me of two other jewish critics of identity politics, both didn't seem to have a problem with the victim-hierarchy of identity politics, they were just annoyed that they were not included. One seemed to want to have it both ways and stated that Jews were uniquely opressed and uniquly powerful and no one asked her how that works in her mind.
This is well written. This could be subconscious but I think Baddiel realises there are only a handful of options. Baddiel is a dye in the wool Lefty. One is to go all in on calling out the Woke, and then he loses all his friends. He could just ignore it. The last option is to publicly affirm is loyalty to the Lefty cause while trying to move Jews into the victim group. He can keep his friends while doing this and he say that he is trying to change minds, but I think deep down he knows the Woke will never consider Jews as part of the victim group.
@@AdamJones381 I don't think this is subconscious. He's not stupid. You are correct. But inmo he's not going to achieve anything. He may keep his friends and leftwing creds. To a point. But he'll never get onto that victim hierarchy. I don't really get why anyone would want to join a club that doesn't want them as a member. (!?) Seems like a kind of humiliation to me. My instinct is to say "screw you. I don't want to be in your stupid club anyway." Has he no dignity?
Hmmm. I find Baddiel quite condescending. He also seems more annoyed that identity politics hasn’t been as kind to the Jews compared to others rather than whether or not there is something inherently unhelpful about it. Would he ever find the demonisation of ‘privileged’ white people intolerable? Anyway - great interview as always and well done for pushing back, Andrew
Yes, and I think another thing that's (to use David's term) 'infected' us is the need to concede to overwhelming social pressure and chime with the narrative, in this case the woke assumption of 'our' biased 'view' of 'Britishness' ('white bread' as David said), which I dispute, not least because it's a sweeping generalization, and ironically quite Middle England - centric. David seemed to reach back into his formative years to make that point, which is of course correct (and indeed, who am I to argue) but things have changed a lot in the intervening years (no disrespect intended), especially since the 1990s. Who were the 'faces' of London in the 1990s? In the 1960s, the most famous model was probably Twiggy. Fast forward to the 1990s, and you effectively have her counterpart in Kate Moss (although even then, there was pushback over her 'look'), *and* the equally famous Naomi Campbell. Here in Wales, the 'face' of Cardiff would probably look like Colin Jackson (thanks, I'm glad to say, to the unusually early multiculturalism in Cardiff (Tiger) Bay), who also literally was the face of Cardiff for a time in the 1990s, as Shirley Bassey has been since the 1960s.
I can slightly agree with your point here but I can also respect that his difference in beliefs didn't falter his ability to have a conversation about a controversial topic that although they may have had similar views on ultimately disagree about its not often we see this happening so regardless of the pretentiousness it was still nice to see how this ended up meaningful conversation is how we get out of this mess that is modern living
@@alexcrawford1387 agreed. I would still like to encourage more of these conversations, with good faith disagreements happening. I do also think that David, if pushed more on his beliefs, would likely become defensive and bad faith. He already seemed to suggest that Andrew was baiting him at one point
Baddiel only seems to care about his Jewish identity and that the struggle of ordinary white working class non-jews that Andrew rightly pointed out, just didn't interest him. Typical of the middle class left now . Well done Andrew for challenging him, he seemed troubled that you dare disagree with him
Exactly. He makes false allegations of anti-semitism all the time, particularly when people criticise Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, so yes, he is a hypocrite. He is arguably the most public profile false accuser when it comes to anti-Semitism.
He was making false allegations about anti-semitism just a few months ago. He was falsely accusing Private Eye magazine of being anti-semitic back in October.I've seen nothing to think that he's stopped between then and now. @@andrewfox368
Seems to me that David has trouble seeing prejudice anywhere other than on the right. Whereas Andrew can see that it is throughout most political idealogies. Andrew's approach to life seems much more humanist. It seems that a woke viewpoint, although started from a positive place, is now only able to be very singular in its considerations. Andrew's youthful humanist approach seemed to rankle that element of David's argument. Superb interview throughout.
Of course it's a good thing to, in Baddiel's words, 'have concern about people who are not the majority culture'. The issue is over HOW you do that. If the only way you can fight discrimination is not to remove the discrimination, but simply reverse who is on the receiving end of it, you are a dangerous ideologue, not someone genuinly after a fairer society. It's revenge you're after not a meritocracy. It's not, 'everyone should be treated equally on merit' rather, 'now it's our turn to be the victimisers'. And when this attitude comes not from minority people but from people who are part of the current majority or supposed victimiser group, it's an attempt to assuage guilt they choose to feel over who they are and their history. That's utter narcissism. It's a way of atoning for perceived wrongs while not changing your lifestyle in any meaningful way. 'Yes, I know I'm in the top 25% of wealth but ignore that. I'm a good person (honest) because I vote for a Left-wing Party & espouse progressive views'. It's allying with the societal revenge peddlers to give yourself a pat on the back. Pfft!!
I've been a fan of David Baddiel since the days of The Mary Whitehouse Experience. I appreciate the fact that he's prepared to go outside of old media and the way that he tries to provide nuance to certain situations, but nevertheless he still comes across like someone clever enough to know that the waters he's been swimming in have been poisoned with stupidity, but still can't quite bring himself to get out of the pool.
@jonnywiles3068 Yeah, I was reluctant to say this, because it felt reductive having just watched him be very careful and nuanced for 90 minutes, but it did kind of seem like he was saying that he'd be okay with the whole DEI thing if they just included Jews. I'm with Andrew - just scrap the whole thing. Whatever small amount of good it may have done for some (though I'm not even really convinced about that) the larger effects on a societal level are incredible division and unhappiness. *Edit:* The person I'm replying to either deleted their comment or TH-cam ate it.
Too much navel gazing means Baddiel is constant trapped on the same wheel. Round and round he goes, sometimes slow, sometimes fast. Same destination that is never properly arrived at. However, this is exactly the problem with "identity" based philiosophy/politics.
@@conrad1on I couldn't tell whether he was simply pointing out that special treatment for minorities is applied inconsistently, using his own minority as an example, or advocating for special treatment for his own minority. He made a good case that "Jews don't count," as he says. But, then what? It was not clear what should follow from any of that.
@@VesnaVK I don't want to put words in his mouth, because he doesn't say outright that he wishes Jews were included as potential benefactors of DEI culture, but the fact that he claims that there is some good to those ideas suggests, at the very least, that he probably wouldn't object if those within his own minority was suddenly able to benefit from them. One might think the fact that they're not applied to every minority equally should really be another reason why those notions are not fit for purpose. Baddiel says here that he's constantly on eggshells about how people will react to what he says these days, so perhaps that accounts for his reticence to say exactly what he means. But is he really equally worried about what some randos who might reply to him on Twitter think, rather than all the people in his industry who have the power to shun him and stop him working? This involves more mind-reading on my part, but if I had to guess at his disposition these days, I'd say that he's intellectually savvy enough to know that a lot of these kinds of ideas are actually bad, but to say so directly risks him being excommunicated in the manner of Laurence Fox, Graham Linehan and others, who made the grave mistake of simply being honest and expressing what, in normal society, are incredibly mundane opinions that most people agree with.
When Adrew raised the point "it doesn't seem okay to say you can't do that because you're white" Baddiel's only problem with that seems to be 'but you're Jewish so you're not white', would it be okay to say it to Andrew if he wasn't Jewish? Would it be okay to prevent Andrew from being the face of his own films if he were just a white person of European descent with absolutely no 'minority' ancestry? It seems to me that if you're okay with discrimination on the basis of race you don't really get to complain when people decide it's also okay to discriminate against your race too. I think the best antidote to racism is to stop racism against all racial groups, I don't think it does any good to just change the group it's acceptable to be racist against. If you're okay with the idea of racism but you don't like it when you're the victim A) you're just a hypocrite, and, B) tough luck.
Hmmmm I am Polish … The topic is starting to get on my nerves .I am White and represented by the let”s face the past colonizers .Our suffering during the war is completely taken over by Jews . Similarly to the Irish we had been raided ,constantly fighting for our existence and still told we have the White privilege …. Sick and tired of it
I am half Polish and half-Irish. My grandparents were catholics in the concentration camps (Sobibor) and I had relatives in Auschwitz. I am also sick of this shit. Polish people lost 18 MILLION. But we are told the "6 million" are the most important. The worst part is I have non-Jews saying I am an "anti-semite" because I disagree with Israel's bullying and weaponization of anti-semitism accusations. They have no skin in this game. My grandparents names are literally in the holocaust museum database. I should be quiet because some fucking guy wants to virtue signal for a genocidal state?
@@Welcome2TheInternet Not mentioning the fact the after the war we were given to Stalin as a present … My family member who was fighting for Britain had to immigrate to Argentina ,my grandfathers,s lands and properties were taken away and he landed in jail because he was fighting under Józef Piłsudski. My mother’s family was kicked out from what is now Ukraina and were prosecuted on the way by the nazi Ukrainian bandits which are getting standing ovations in Canada …. I myself witnessed Russian tanks rolling the streets …. Had passport and currency which could get me nowhere … Enough of all that “ victim olympics” ,nothing to do with skin colour !
Andrew is great. Love his podcast. Love even more that he tried NOT to play the oppressed card (being Jewish) when he was trying to get his idea to audiences. Woke BS promotes racism and division. What's happening now is nothing better than allotted forms of discrimination. It's disgraceful and regressive
One of the many problems with identity politics is that it ignores the individual experience. You might be a white man but if for example you had a rough childhood and grew up in care then that's going to have a much more negative impact on your life than you being white and a man.
Well said! I don't think we should concede the point at all, because it’s so cynically divisive. Many now feel entitled to make 'antiracist' assumptions on sight, with absolutely no idea about them, their personal history, or their heritage. They haven't even considered that 'white' is so uselessly descriptive that, for example, the descendent of a survivor of the Irish potato famine would be indistinguishable from those of their land owners, or those in parliament who blithely theorized about 'natural balance'.
Precisely. The whole identity politics paradigm basically completely ignores economic class, which is by far the most important factor of your "identity" in most economic, educational, or often social circumstances. They even came up with "intersectionality" as a codified means of capturing intersecting identities and their consequences, but it just serves as an amplifier (im a woman, and black, and homosexual) and completely disregards the intersection of economic class with the "oppressive" or privileged classes.
@@user-bn9ji8od3x yeah the whole "intersectional" crap just steals from the work of bahktin & his translator Kristeva: intertectuality encompasses everything ascribed to 'intersectionality" & more but in a more nuanced manner ironically without the ideological focus on being as a rung on the victim ladder from oppressor (a purely Marxist term) at the top to oppressed (read minority) at the very bottom
I've never heard of Badiel before but good lord does he suck all the air out of a room. Constantly interrupting to tell Andrew he's wrong or he doesn't agree before Andrew can finish a thought. Sadly the woke crowd are just like David, they aren't willing to listen and they think they know everything.
I have similar opinions on Baddiel but can’t ignore the broad sweeping statement at the end there - a lot of the right-wing media loves to caricature the left (and it happens the other way round too) but a *lot* of ‘woke’ people are a lot more open and receptive to others’ voices than you give them credit for
That's true but not mutually exclusive to another answer: Not work in cabals that promote each other over others. Or else other groups should perhaps do what the Jews do which is promote their own is probably the best lesson to learn aka "If you can beat 'em join 'em" ie do whatever they do that works. They're not the only group who do this and achieve success either and it does not take away from the fact they're competitive and talented either.
Doesn't know who Peter Boghossian is, thinks he discovered the concept of "hierarchy of victimhood" when "progressive stack" was in common parlans 12y before the publication of "Jews Don't Count", "ID-pol comes from a good and useful place"... I'm starting to doubt the quality of his research and expertise on the subject.
@@TheJustinJ He bitches about "not wanting to be part of the team mentality" but based his own identity on his jewish team. He whines about the "hierarchy of racism" but fails to mention that Jews are at the top of that hierarchy and weaponize anti-semitism accusations to divert criticism from israel. He claims he is an atheist, but his whole schtick is based on a bronze age religion. Now shut up.
Every insufferable woke warlord says 'we need a conversation about that'... What does this mean? And we all know who is invited to this discussion and all those that arent.
Cracking interview Andrew. From a atheist perspective, i found this chat utterly fascinating and actually didn't want it to end! Ive always really liked David, and his forthright pov, but to hear him so utterly raw and uncut (so to speak) was a breath of fresh air! Long may these voices of modern wisdom continue to be heard
All commentators argue for their own opinions. It’s what they have always done. Jewish people can talk about whatever they want, just like everyone else. You don’t like it, TH-cam has plenty of other videos you can watch.
@@Historian212 well that's a valuable contribution :/ I'm simply surprised that his main point of criticism is not so much (or not at all) identity politics itself, but the fact that he, as a Jew, cannot enjoy privileges carried by it. Cry-baby.
I don't remember any other of your interviewees picking questions they weren't going to answer. How charming of him. You really should have pressed the Trans issue - we'd have seen the scale of the hollow where his brain used to be then.
Yes!! He's an elder so I understand Andrews underplay of himself....but with David's portfolio I thought he'd have an opinion on such a contemporary issue!!!
I think he meant that the whiteness doesn't count, or counts much less, than the Jewishness. Not that "white Jews" don't count. I took it as him suggesting that he'd like to see Jewish people concentrate on being Jewish, rather than on skin colour. That was my take on it anyway. Other opinions may differ.
It feels as though this isn't an exchange, it's just DB spouting forth on his hobby horse and promoting his book into the bargain. He's just talking at the young bloke. Reminds me of Monkey Dust's take on Baddiel.
Hope you don’t mind me giving some constructive criticism Andrew, either put a high pass filter of 75-100Hz on the microphones or put them on floor mounted stands, there won’t be that low thump when a guest accidentally bumps the table then.
Just as arrogant as he was on The Mary Whitehouse Experience telling constant jokes about masturbation and being very annoyed that he wasn’t as funny as Rob Newman. Turned this one off when he got snooty about the legend that is Peter Boghossian!
I like Baddiel, but he dismisses elements to suit his needs. For instance, dismissing the representation by Jews in entertainment/communications/media. He sort of cherry picks, "but what about in the UK." Really? Not the original epicenters of Hollywood and NYC? Ridiculous arguing technique.
As someone of a similar age I have a different recollection to David. He said “you never really saw people of colour on tv”. Trevor McDonald, Moira Stewart, Floella Benjamin and Derek Griffiths. And that was just the News and Play School.
Charlie Williams (the Comedians), Johnny (Pipkins), Brinsley Forde (The Double Deckers), Don Warrington (Rising Damp), Lenny Henry, Norman Beaton, Carmen Munroe, I'm sure it's a pretty extensive list, too.
Baddiel touches on an interesting subject about whether a non deaf actor can play a deaf person because mimicry is tantamount to mockery. I feel like this is a surface level opinion very typical of people on the progressive left. I have often heard that certain people shouldn’t use certain words and that context doesn’t matter. Context ALWAYS matters. If an actor plays a deaf person for comedic effect and the target of the joke is simply deafness, that is mockery. When Riz Ahmed learned BSL and delivered an amazing performance in _Sound of metal_ it wasn’t mockery, it was a heartfelt tribute to the struggles within the deaf community.
@@VesnaVK Exactly and that is the crux of my point tbh. When you break things down and look at them properly, it is very easy to debunk such accusations.
I am an actress and I am so sick of this BS about people having to play the parts because they are actually deaf/ gay / whatever. The clue is in the title 'ACTING'. You train to do this, to inhabit different characters. I have never played myself though I have brought my experiences that all humans have to the role, but for chrissake you hire the person who is best at the job, who fits in with the casting, who can take direction.. End of. And by the way if Othello has to be a black person then why doesn't it work the other way round? Where is the blind casting they are always banging on about? One rule for one group quite another for the rest.
David's 'critique of DEI / progressivism from a progressive POV' seems to be only that they do not recognize Jews as an oppressed minority, and if that were to be remedied tomorrow, he sounds like he'd be on board. While to me it's getting more and more obvious what he critiques is a feature, not a bug. Reminds me of those who think communism is a great idea and would work out great if only its practitioners don't 'distort' it.
It's not apparent to me that he gets that 'diversity' in DEI is a radically rebranded concept whose essence is exactly the imposition of a new strict hierarchical pyramid of oppression which measures group worth (and institutes a new typology of discrimination) by race, gender and other identitarian traits, and which by design relegates anyone seen by the 'oppressed' as white or 'white-adjacent' including Jews to the bottom of the new value pyramid.
I don’t think so. His point seems to be that when you have a group like Jewishness that does not slot into the oppressor ‘ oppressed dynamic, it makes you question the overall framework.
David had the attitude that he was intellectually superior, and he controlled the interview. Andrew was almost bullied by an older man with more confidence than he had. Don't let them get away with it Andrew! Stand up to these people. You are easily their equal!! They were young and unsure of themselves once.
I didn't see that. David said that he disagreed on a couple of points and Andrew invited him to say why, then they discussed their opposing views without descending into a shouting match. That's a good interview.
I don't see Andrew as unsure of himself. Handled well. This is what good interviewing is all about and this one didn't look easy. Let's have more opinionated tablebashers!
In the 1961 Census for the UK 98.9% were white British. If you went to the Majority of Capital Cities and Towns across the world they would be majority indigenous population.. You would not expect anything else.
I wasn't a massive fan of David before the interview. Post interview, my original impression still stands. It's unusual that I don't find someone more likeable after this style of interview.
Evil happens when you start thinking of people as things, it evolves into treating people as things which is deplorable, even when you treat yourself as a thing.
The interesting part was when Andrew spoke about being told they won't show his documentary unless he has a person from an ethnic background present it. David basically said its fine that he was discriminated against for being a white man but wrong that he was discriminated against for being Jewish. Here lies the problem. If he accepts that then he has no real argument that jews should not be discriminated against or forgot, because either all discrimination is wrong or its not. Imo no one should be discriminated against unless there is a very, very, good reason like only hiring women at refuges. It should not have mattered at all is andrew was white, or a man or Jewish what should have mattered was whether or not he made a documentary they thought would be draw in viewers and be interesting to people. That's it. It's also so patronising if I was making a documentary and it got accepted by the BBC in this climate I would wonder if I got it through on merit or the fact I tick a diveristy box being a women.
I've listened to David on this subject twice now, and I think he's putting out a mixed message. He seems to think some forms of discrimination are fine, but other forms, specifically against minorities, are not. I think he also disapproved of categorising people, but then later categorised people. He seemed to think diversity was a good thing, whereas I think in fact diversity can just make things more difficult and complicated.
"Diversity" is a catch all phrase. But in modern American re-wssigned meanings is means "a group of people not sharing the same appearance" And therefore, it's meaningless. The smallest minority in any society is the individual. Any and all attacks on the individual, and on that persons rational actions to live their own life, so long as they live without harming other people, any actions against them to coerce or manipulate or punish them, is abhorrent, immoral, and evil.
Baddiel's problem seems to be "There's a party and only the cool kids get invited, and I'm not one of the cool kids! It's not fair! I want to be one of the cool kids!" It's pathetic.
I really enjoyed listening to this. It's good to hear people who may not necessarily agree with each other having a conversation. I think the point about teams is so important, it's not easy to go against the expected opinion of your peers and i think that's why people get swept along with the madness created on social media.
He got the Congressional hearing wrong. The questions had moved on from specific statements and sought to establish a baseline. What the world heard was exactly what we heard; the professors refused to even acknowledge that explicitly "calling for genocide" violated their bullying/harassment codes.
I LOVE how much of a seeker David seems to be. I hope, HOPE he keeps going down this route and sees the ridiculous sham this whole identity thing is. It's a sham and a chase for status. It's a fight for power with a different currency.
I wonder how old you are and where in the world you hail from. I'm slightly younger than him, but i remember the days he talks about. A black person on TV was a BIG deal. A gay was even bigger. To clarify not gay people, but gay characters (not the same thing), Freddy Mercury was pretty famous and i think you might have heard of him. Minorities were hugely underepresented. Whats wrong with more folks from more backgrounds having the same oportunities as folks with less melanin? Just have to watch that pendulum swing. The fact is that pendulum will settle down and the folks decrying the inclusion of minorities will not be viewed well by either history or anyone really. I wonder if you can spot my unconscious bias, i almost missed it.
@@jamesmaybrick2001Listening to Andrew and 1000s of other testimonies, im starting to believe diversity means anyone but white straight male? Everyone was raging at the Argentinian team and the womens football team for being white, yet absolute no one bats an eyelid at asian team, african team or middle east team being all one colour. You get the impression 'a group of white people' are seen as offensive these days... I could go on and on.
@@jamesmaybrick2001 I don't know how old you are but when I grew up we had kenny Everett, hinge and bracket, lenny henry, the sitcom Desmonds, mel brooks films in the cinema lampooning everyone. DB is old enough to remember all that too. as for underrepresented I disagree they are over represented now which is why if you ask the average person in the street they will say 10% of the UK population is gay and 30% is black, the truth is nothing like that its a 5 times over representation but interestingly those numbers match the representation in the media, so the media is giving a false perception of the demographics of the UK, and thats not a good thing.
I’ve noticed a thing that is a warning sign for me about a person and it’s when I get a message and I’m then put into a group where another person has decided who’s in it, I don’t like that at all and it’s a form of modern day bullying. It happens in work, social life of hobbies and I think it’s bad for society. It’s a group of individuals who want to exclude others because of x or y when they might only disagree with the unselected person or persons on one thing but are otherwise a very nice. This to me is modern day cancellation, you must like all I say or you are not in my picked group and deserve to be left out ⚠️ ( ps the only minority that isn’t allowed on tv or to present any program is the working class with their views, but the same tv people write mocking comedy about them constantly )
@@MsMounen yes on tv they are nowhere to be seen except as figures of fun and exploitation, you can’t have those people presenting a show or putting their racist views over !
@@kellysouter4381Well said, and good for you! Unfortunately people have always been too keen to form cliques, and social media exploits this weakness cynically and corrosively.
Andrew, I saw a fantastic interview with David Bernstein, his book is called Woke Antisemitism. It was on a channel called Quillette. He’s an American academic. Can highly recommend
David and Andrew have a lot to learn about the political landscape in America. David, who worries that "Jews don't count" finds a politician, Ellise Stefanik, standing up for Jews but she's on the right, and he doesn't want to be associated with that, so he dismisses her. Then he sees academics who can't decide whether calling for the destruction of Jews during intense campus protests is against their Code of Conduct. But he wants to be associated with these "smart ladies." So he makes excuses for them. Don't expect the rest of us to follow that "logic." They also need to educate themselves on the Abraham Accords. Any other politician would have won the Nobel Peace Prize for that work.
Pluckrose, Boghossian and Lindsay: the Grievance Papers. These were sent to Social Science publications, not scientific publications. Seven were published. The authors were 'outed' by a journalist who saw through them. Otherwise, more would probably have been published. Pluckrose and Lindsay: 'Cynical Theories'. (Book)
True, but even respected science journals are publishing papers with dubious arguments about 'the sex spectrum' now. Colin Wright's recent talk to the Genspect Denver conference covers some of them.
Cynical Theory is an astonishingly good book, very overlooked. Totally dismantles the Critical Theory principle and exposes the insanity from the ground up. The book that opened my own eyes and turned me from continuing down the path of neo leftist thinking.
Baddiel says economic class inequity is ignored by progressives who now focus on identity politics instead but he doesn't see identity politics as a bad thing. He seems naive: How beneficial it's been for the elites--especially the ultra rich who want to appear to be progressive--to turn the poors to squabbling against each other's identities instead of banding together against the elites.
He’s been keeping his head down for a while, hasn’t he! Leaving it for the rest of us to point out what going wrong til the pendulum starts swinging back. Sorry, Andrew. Baddiel had his chance to be the canary in the coal mine and he kept schtum.
Funny thing about art, David... once you put it into the world, you don't have much if any control over how it will be interpreted. And sometimes authors even realize that they weren't actually saying what they thought they were saying.
Loving these videos. It's always good to get different opinions on all sides. Do i agree with Mr Baddiel.... No but it gives us hope for finding solution of how to solve this identity politics mess we find ourselves in. Kudos to you Andrew, if we dont debate in good faith how can we maintain what humanity we have left. And thats the key, how to preserve what our socieities and culture has strived to achieve for all people, tolerance, democracy and liberty rather than let it be dissolved in a matter of moments for cultish dogma and virtue signalling for those that crave power and status. Good work Andrew, we need channels like yours, keep it real.
"Identity Politics is a good thing" Sorry David, no its not and your point doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny. He's talking out of both side of his mouth on this issue, its staggering!
A very interesting discussion, but I think Mr Baddiel leans into the opressor/opressed narrative a bit too much. I understand his point about the precipice of acting vs. mockery when it comes to actors playing disabled characters... but isn't that the entire purpose of acting as a career? If you are a good actor, there is no chance the audience will interpret the acting as mockery. Take Sean Penn in I Am Sam, for example. Or Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump. Or Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. These actors were superb at their job, and they portrayed their characters with the utmost respect. If an actor is suited to a role and is capable of doing their job properly, there should be no "diversity criteria" requirements. It completely defeats the purpose of acting.
Andrew, each interview gets better and better! This is your format.,, I hope everyone watching these interviews understands that you don't no agree with anyone,, it's a format to make you think. To open doors you didn't know were there. This kind of interview is what we've lost. Allowing people to speak openly and if you disagree.. that's great!! It's just allowing people to express their opinions openly without fear.
One hundred p.c agree. On a few u.tubes I've expressed a view as part of a discussion and later had some very nasty personal replies. Yet without debate we can't expand. And often words infer an unintended meaning. I'm interested in all the heretic shows Andrew gold did that I've had time to see. I'd like to see Mr icke invited. I always felt he was unfairly censored which made him go radical but he uncovered some relevant stuff. Like you. I hear others out even if I don't agree.
The idea of a Sacred Circle of Minorities is silly. People should be treated fairly and justly. One of the problems of Western cultures at present is the active worship of minority status as something praiseworthy in its own right, rather than merely promoting mutual tolerance and civility to our countrymen.
@@Welcome2TheInternet I don't recall if that specific politician did, but I do recall one specifically asking if calling for genocide of Jews was against school policy, and they wouldn't say "yes, it's against school policy". Never mind quibbling about what is or isn't "calling for genocide", which i would expect, she wouldn't even say genocide of Jews is bad. The clip I saw was asked to Claudine Gay, now former president of Harvard.
@@Welcome2TheInternet What Ms Stafanik said was (word for word): "Ms Magill, at Penn, does calling for the genocide of jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct. Yes or no?" Magill would not give a yes or no answer but said it was context-dependent.
Thank god, Baddiel just referred to 'majority culture' - this is where I've thought the whole identity politics thing has gone wrong ever since I heard the phrase white privilege back in the early 20teens. The wrong impression is given that its something inherently white. It's not. Its majority privilege. It just so happens to be that the movement is based in countries like USA and UK where historically the most powerful groups have all been european (not 'group', groups. People of English and Spanish descent are not the same culturally, regardless of their genetic make up. There IS no global 'white' culture any more than that there is a 'black' one. In theory there is a Jewish culture and a Muslim culture, but very like Christianity or any other religion, I suspect it is likely that's more a factor of the common faith and I would also imagine it varies quite wildly depending on the country or even city a given Jew grew up in). But go to bangladesh (or Iran, or really wherever - anywhere where white poeple are not the majority) and you will find the equivalent prejudices and biases amongst whichever group is the majority/most powerful. It's just the human condition - if you're in a majority group, you will have privileges. That's not inherently evil, it's what you do or don't do with those privileges that matter, exactly like being very rich. If you want to call it American White Privilege you'd at least be warmer, but now we're stacking up the labels and eventually if you stack them up high enough you're just going to swing all the way around to where you aren't thinking about group identity at all cos there'll be no groups, just individuals. It's a self-eating philosophy as far as I can tell. It's trying to codify something complex and nuanced into our behaviours with hard structure - that won't work, and as humans we don't need it, on an individual interaction level, we used to just call all this awareness of other's background, influences and blindspots as 'building rapport'. I do agree with Baddiel that intersectionality and being aware of that isn't at all bad plan, it's essential to be as aware of your blind spots as possible and be willing to be clarified by someone else. But if you make your collection of labels your entire personality then you are more likely to feel aggrieved and attacked if someone who uses different labels or feels that *your* labels make little sense to them then challenges you in any way. That's how we've really started getting tribes collecting themselves around those labels and before you know it you've started dehumanising people - maybe you start lumping everyone who disagrees with you as 'left' or 'right', for instance.... It's how you get the LGBT 'community' (again I find the concept of an LGBT community arguable by this point, as it's rightly become such a broad church, you might as well try saying 'labour voters are a community') tearing itself apart internally with bi-phobia, unable to resolve the politics of feminism vs trans rights to the point people just form ranks and don't try to reach across.... ...its just humans humaning incredibly lazily, which before you know it, leads to you've got division, then you're very quickly on the Dark side path of fear > anger > hate > suffering. I happen to be white and straight. If you think from that you can predict my personality and beliefs... well, you're an idiot. How many more labels do you need me to give myself before you've triangulated? 3? 7? 33? Where's the line? Is it the same for someone else? There isn't one, so I'd love it if activists on woke issues - for and against - could pack it in with the projection. I don't care if you're an activist like Suella Braverman, obsessed with the idea that Wokism is an actual movement and must be fought, or someone who claims to *be* woke whilst hypocritically throwing around 'white' this and 'white' and denying antisemitism exists when it's in front of you... you really gotta stop projecting whole personalities or emnity on to people with a different idea to you. Its so intellectually LAZY.
This guy did blackface on TV in the '90s and bullied people for cheap laughs, and now he's some Guardian reader intellectual lecturing people about identity politics.
@@NataliaMartan It depends on what device you're listening to this on. Speakers on most laptops/tablets/smartphones filter out the low frequencies. But plug in headphones or connect things like AirPods and you get a wider frequency range, including the rumble range of the table thumps.
Agree with everyone's comments saying DB is just a woke numpty who wants to get in the club with his own special identity. The ironic thing is how he manages to genuinely isolate himself in this position from both anti-woke anti-identitarianism and woke identitarianism. I guess he really does have the unique viewpoint he claims, but so does everyone who has an ill thought out take they think is so ground breaking that no one can see their true genius.
Badiel claims to not want to be on any one groups "side," but he sure does do a very good impression of being on one! He does appear to be very aggrieved that the Jewish community does not have, in his opinion, the same perceived minority status as others. Personally, I do my best to see beyond one's innate characteristics as they provide no information whatsoever on one's character, skill set & intention. I'm sure my opinion upsets Badiel greatly -I mean, how on earth would he cope with having to be judged on who he is inside & not identity politics?
Baddiel describes the narcissist dynamic in this. They have no 'person' inside them so they have to paste on a personality to exist. Such a shame - for humanity.
tell the guest to stop banging on the table, it's really poor for the audio experience. Love your work generally, didn't care for this guest a ton but that's okay!
Had a close friend who worked in psych wards back in the 90's and the worst affected patients in there were cannabis users. It wasn't anywhere near the strength it is today.
This smacks of Dame Maureen Lipman ironically accusing Dame Helen Mirren of "jew facing" for accepting the title role in Golda. There could be many reasons why a minority group actor might not be available for a project, so assuming racism is so White Fragility (DiAngelo) . I can't imagine Harrison Ford only acting roles as the skilled carpenter that he is. I have not seen one Nelson Mandela film portrayed by a Xhosa actor, as any black or mixed race actor is apparently acceptable, so I smell double standards and hypocrisy (again)
What do you know? Enough to have spotted how much he is in line with the established discourse coming from this current brand of leftism (I resist using the "W" word). The guy bemoans identity politics, but then complains about growing up in a society where the main views came from "white men" (imagine that eh? In England of all places?), and used the term "white bread" (he even went to the trouble of giving us some quotation marks) where the derision was plain for all to see. He uses terms like "people of colour" (shudder), and balks at the idea of delving into the issues around class. Sounds like every other Metropolitan, middle class leftists to me. You saw how dismissive he was when Peter Boghossian was mentioned too. He really is a smug, self-aggrandising prick who will put people off even when he makes good points. Baffling how he's still around as he was never really funny in the first place. I'm still perplexed in regards to him becoming famous for being a comedian.
Basically he said, I didn’t mind DEI when White British people (or Whites anywhere) were being negatively impacted but as soon as DEI no longer benefitted me, I no longer support it.
When I think of David Baddiel I just imagine him and Jo Brand calmly wandering through the Taskmaster house. I do agree with Baddiel that this channel is overall quite anti woke, which I'm generally as well. But I like that a different opinion is heard here, even if I don't agree with it. Some youtube interviewers don't have room for differing opinions without ridiculing them. I like seeing the calm disagreement here where both of you argue your cases, at least until David started interrupting your every sentence.
Andrew this is an excellent interview. I found it really interesting and entertaining. I would love to see more interviews with guests where you have the intellectual discussions mixed in with the humour.
I always relate David Baddiel to those Mary Whitehouse Experience old Professor discussing "History Today" sketches with Rob Newman, especially when he is head to head with someone.
Just a heads up, all through the interview, there was constant thudding coming through the microphone. Perhaps bumping the table over and over and over again. Had to stop listening.
Hegel never took sides either: 'It often happens in philosophy that a one-sided view sets itself up beside the totality, claiming to be something particular and fixed vis-a-vis the latter. But, in fact, what is one-sided is not fixed and does not subsist on its own account; instead, it is contained within the whole as sublated. The dogmatism of the metaphysics of the understanding consists in its adherence to one-sided thought-determinations in their isolation, whereas the idealism of speculative philosophy involves the principle of totality and shows itself able to overgrasp the one-sidedness of the abstract determinations of the understanding. Thus, idealism will say, "The soul is neither just finite nor just infinite, but is essentially both the one and the other, and hence neither the one nor the other." In other words, these determinations are not valid when they are isolated from one another but only when sublated'. - 'Encyclopaedia Logic'
Frank Skinner says he and David Badiel are still friends. He added that he gave in a lot 😊 ..... If people don't understand your play, it's a bad play. Luckily some people enjoyed it for what it wasn't so he should be grateful for that,at least, but no............those thickos that don't understand his genius! I gave up at 11 minutes
Overall it was a good interview, and while I don't always agree with David Baddiel's views I think you both made some great points and I like to hear people coming from differing points of view. I do find it interesting that Baddiel can't seem to see the obvious similarity; He agrees Jewish people seem to be the only people you're allowed to be subconsciously racist to in UK culture, because they're seen as Rich and Powerful (also known as privilege) while he doesn't seem to find an issue with the allowed VERY CONSCIOUS and often openly stated racism against non-Jewish white people in UK culture, due to their perceived "privilege". You even try to bring that up regarding the Asian BBC guy who openly stated having so many white people made him feel uncomfortable. Barmy.
An important conversation with some nuance, not as much as I'd hope as Baddiel interrupts each time he is afraid that Gold will say something that will have to make him align with Gold's ideas. It ends up just being rude and cutting him off to constantly make his own point and Gold has to cede the floor as he is the host of the show and that is just good manners. And I agree that Adam Phillips is a wonderful thinker. I read his case study book, "On Kissing, Tickling, and Being Bored" in graduate school and it really left an impact.
On one hand it was a mind opener. I am not a Jew and I did think of them as a minority, but never as a minority that needs to be represented…. On the other hand he is very condescending and he seems to undermine all the reasons why Jews are not seen as a minority that needs protection. I think the riches they have is enormously disproportionate to the numbers they are. And minorities do tend to go with colour. I am a minority in Europe, but with my skin colour no one gives me the right to complain and I am happy with that!!
I'm the expert on weed 😊 😂 I could have torn david apart on this 😂 I think people mistake the high as being something like schizophrenia because it stimulates your minds eye and your thoughts become more intense but it goes away if it was so bad why would all of us have a cannabis system within us and also produce sativa thc the part that gets you high the media have always said it makes you stupid the scientists however say its in our bodies for the opposite to help us learn fact and also for dietary reasons and happiness its an anti depressant also he says its stronger now skunk that's another media thing skunk is just cannabis real cannabis not hemp which is another plant from the same family but doesn't get you high its things like coke people should avoid that really can cause mental health issues and rapidly
Andrew, love all of your content. If I may be a nerdy douche, might i suggest either isolating your mics from the boomy table ( with freestanding mic stands) or using a bass cut to remove the table rumbles from arm movements, etc? Thanks again for great content.
Here in suburban Australia ,we would not know a Jew if you paid us .We have seen the specials on tiny Jewish groups in Bondi and we always hear about Jews in U.S entertainment .In reality, I meet no one who wants to be seen as Jewish (even if they might have ancestry)nor have I ever come across discrimination of Jewish folk .Australians tend to judge the individual ,not his religion.
![ฮักเทื่อสุดท้าย - บอย ศิริชัย [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-1PoPoQ-B-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Thoughts on identity politics? Hit like above!
It could be detrimental for....society, the world...? Personally, I still don't exactly get what "identity" is. Is it the total of the social clubs you belong to? It makes no sense to me, maybe because I don't feel I belong to any clubs really. I'm Dutch but I don't particularly like the country, I'm a feminist but feminists often really annoy me, I'm a lefty but leftist parties everywhere have completely lost the plot it seems .....and so on. So, I'm just me...trying to find my way through life....and I think all of us are like me in that way independent of any ridiculous labels we like to stick on everyone, everything and ourselves. It's a really good feeling to be open, to just learn, and to change your mind in a major way every now and then.
That probably didn't answer the question, sorry not sorry I guess. I'm looking forward to this interview. I don't know who he is so I'll find out. I liked your interview with Graham Linehan and Maya Forstater. I've known about them for many years. I liked your straightforward, uncomplicated way of doing it.
There's a misconception that it's exploded because of the left., but while yes of course that's partly true, it's also blown up as the left's priority by right wing media and newspapers - go look back through the daily mail and most of their stories are either about royals, the curse of 'woke' (usually involving identity ) or eco protesters. Very very little about the economy or different approaches or solutions. It's become how the right identify the left now - it's all 'woke''. It's focussed on to distract, particulary after austerity , while 'the economy' ia still talked about like it's a beast we have to placate, as opposed to something human beings have created and can change themselves.
At a time when resouces, species diversity and ecosystems are depleting, when whole countries have been rendered uninhabitable by war, producing mass waves of refugees, when the supermatkets , energy companies etc are squeezing us for as much as we have while they can, they don't want to talk about the genuine problems we face, but instead focus on 'woke' . For the newspaper owners it makes sense because hey, they're billionaires so the economy works for them. And if that's all you constantly read about, what else are people going to discuss?
@@treesart6914 "identity" in this sense is a way to divide people along multivariant oppressor/oppressed, and good/bad categories. Intersectionality is when you make Venn diagrams out of your categories. It's a Marxian conception. It makes you primarily a member of (a) group(s ), rather than primarily an individual. It also focuses your attention on ways you are different from others, hence encouraging you to feel alienated - including alienation from people in your own group, when you don't feel a special connection to them, as you describe here.
My family were hidden Jew's my mother was born in Scotland and my dad in Belfast..I went to church and followed Jesus before we realised our lineage. It's been an interesting journey for our family. We do follow the Yeshua/Jesus type of Judaism...we travelled from Sub Saharan regions on mum's side and Spanish/Portuguese on dad's side. The markers were interesting. I went to Israel in 2018..loved it. Felt like home. It's an interesting journey for my family, but very inriching. 😊
Hate identity politics btw, the world has lost it's marbles
I saw Baddiel on Triggernometry a few years ago, he wrote a book Jews Don't Count.
Baddiel was annoyed that Jews weren't included in the group of oppressed and were seen as an oppressor.
Francis and Konstantin were asking Baddiel instead of trying get Jews into the oppressed group, it would be better to do away with the oppressed/oppressor system.
At this point I would agree with them. It's become so extreme and detrimental.
Yes do away with the Oppressed/Oppressor system!!!! The Oppressors would love nothing better.
He’s not “trying to get Jews into the oppressed group.” Jews were being oppressed for centuries before he came along. It’s the denial of that fact that he’s highlighting.
@@MsMounenIt’s hard to be authentically oppressed when you are loaded and extremely well connected.
@@Historian212 Is there anybody who isn’t in an insane asylum on this planet who believes Jews weren’t oppressed in the past? Harping back to historical oppression from a position of privilege all is just a bit cheesy, it’s all a bit P. Diddy rolling in his millions rapping about day to day life in the hood.
I feel like he’s more upset that Jews are left out of woke identity politics, rather than having an issue with the flaws of identity politics at present. I think the first part is valid and something I think about a lot, but I found it jarring that he is so apprehensive to critique any part of identity politics except for the one that affect him and his identity directly
And when he started going after comedy and what you can and can’t joke about I felt uncomfortable. While it is a nuanced conversation his self interested view and somewhat censoring/you can’t say that language is a little unsettling. He’s hardly a heretic, he just wants to be included in the identity club
He's more upset that his carrier collapsed, so he's trying to jump on a band wagon. what an arse
It’s amazing how little a lot of otherwise very intelligent people engage in self reflection.
Yeah, that's exactly his take. He's an idiot.
This is what identity politics is all about. Point proved
All I'm hearing here is "identity politics is good as long as I'm not feeling the pressure".
Not really, it’s ‘Identity politics is a fantastic racket, I want in, it’s not fair’. He’s happy for white people to be excluded, as long as Jews don’t count as white. An odd turnaround if you think about it, but that’s modern Britain .
Yes. He's very unclear in his thinking. He even makes a flippant aside at one point that online pressure is not real, then later claims that internet outrage can stop a movie going ahead. Maybe he should ask people who've been cancelled by losers on twitter whether online pressure is real or not.
Baddiel might think the "far right" are a greater danger to Jews than the left but he omits the elephant in the room.
The "far right" isn't alligning & sympathetic to radical Islam, the left is.
He also interrupts and dismisses Andrew, claiming it's not "interesting" to him that Andrew basically lost his career because he is white. I thought that was particuarly rude.
He seems quite confused about his own progressivism. He says he's interested in the truth but actually I see a lot of avoidance and mixed messages.
I am Jewish and I really don't agree with his stance. He acknowledges that he comes off like he wants to just join in the "hierarchy of victimhood" (even claiming he invented the term 🙄), but claims thats NOT what he's doing. Yet simultaenously praises identity politics.
He obviously doesn't care about what happened to Andrew about his skin colour. But jumps on the comment about being Jewish.
I agree that this is awful but thats not the reason Andrew lost work. Its bcs he's white.
If Baddiel is so interested in "the truth" he wouldn't brush this aside so flippantly unless he thinks its fine or is scared to talk about it.
Also, he might want to look into the history of Claudine Gay.
She destroyed a black academic who was researching inconvenient truths.
I think he wants to do the impossible, remain a progressive, and point out all the hypocrisies. He wants to praise identity politics yet ditch the bits he doesn't like. Which is the way "Jews Don't Count".
Jews will never be part of the hierarchy of the progressive stack. Pointing it out won't change that. It's baked in!
His defensiveness when Andrew points out that the world has changed (he didn't even let him finish) just shows how nervous he is about even the slightest whiff of someone touching the fact that anti-white racism IS a thing now. He won't even go there.
So much for him only being interested in "the truth".
Bullshit.
👆💯😁
Bravo...
he reminds me of two other jewish critics of identity politics, both didn't seem to have a problem with the victim-hierarchy of identity politics, they were just annoyed that they were not included. One seemed to want to have it both ways and stated that Jews were uniquely opressed and uniquly powerful and no one asked her how that works in her mind.
This is well written. This could be subconscious but I think Baddiel realises there are only a handful of options. Baddiel is a dye in the wool Lefty. One is to go all in on calling out the Woke, and then he loses all his friends. He could just ignore it. The last option is to publicly affirm is loyalty to the Lefty cause while trying to move Jews into the victim group. He can keep his friends while doing this and he say that he is trying to change minds, but I think deep down he knows the Woke will never consider Jews as part of the victim group.
@@AdamJones381 I don't think this is subconscious. He's not stupid.
You are correct.
But inmo he's not going to achieve anything. He may keep his friends and leftwing creds. To a point. But he'll never get onto that victim hierarchy.
I don't really get why anyone would want to join a club that doesn't want them as a member. (!?)
Seems like a kind of humiliation to me.
My instinct is to say "screw you. I don't want to be in your stupid club anyway."
Has he no dignity?
Hmmm. I find Baddiel quite condescending. He also seems more annoyed that identity politics hasn’t been as kind to the Jews compared to others rather than whether or not there is something inherently unhelpful about it. Would he ever find the demonisation of ‘privileged’ white people intolerable? Anyway - great interview as always and well done for pushing back, Andrew
Yeah, sounds exactly like that.
Yes, and I think another thing that's (to use David's term) 'infected' us is the need to concede to overwhelming social pressure and chime with the narrative, in this case the woke assumption of 'our' biased 'view' of 'Britishness' ('white bread' as David said), which I dispute, not least because it's a sweeping generalization, and ironically quite Middle England - centric. David seemed to reach back into his formative years to make that point, which is of course correct (and indeed, who am I to argue) but things have changed a lot in the intervening years (no disrespect intended), especially since the 1990s.
Who were the 'faces' of London in the 1990s? In the 1960s, the most famous model was probably Twiggy. Fast forward to the 1990s, and you effectively have her counterpart in Kate Moss (although even then, there was pushback over her 'look'), *and* the equally famous Naomi Campbell. Here in Wales, the 'face' of Cardiff would probably look like Colin Jackson (thanks, I'm glad to say, to the unusually early multiculturalism in Cardiff (Tiger) Bay), who also literally was the face of Cardiff for a time in the 1990s, as Shirley Bassey has been since the 1960s.
His brain departed shortly after his sense of humour (decades ago).
I can slightly agree with your point here but I can also respect that his difference in beliefs didn't falter his ability to have a conversation about a controversial topic that although they may have had similar views on ultimately disagree about its not often we see this happening so regardless of the pretentiousness it was still nice to see how this ended up meaningful conversation is how we get out of this mess that is modern living
@@alexcrawford1387 agreed. I would still like to encourage more of these conversations, with good faith disagreements happening. I do also think that David, if pushed more on his beliefs, would likely become defensive and bad faith. He already seemed to suggest that Andrew was baiting him at one point
Baddiel only seems to care about his Jewish identity and that the struggle of ordinary white working class non-jews that Andrew rightly pointed out, just didn't interest him. Typical of the middle class left now . Well done Andrew for challenging him, he seemed troubled that you dare disagree with him
Must be a lot easier to be an independent thinker and work things out for yourself when you constantly interrupt anyone that disagrees with you.
Just like the woke crowd David won't listen to anyone.
My thoughts exactly
Rather too pleased with himself for my taste. He's very contradictory. Doesn't like tribes but reminds us constantly that he's in one.
nailed it. even his X bio says "Jew". it's his whole thing. which is weid for a guy who doesn't want to be a "team".
Feels like Baddiel was fine with all the discrimination that woke ideology was bringing until he was left out. This man is no Heretic
Yeah. And woke is best defined as whoever the right-leaning media want to bash today without the inconvenience of fairly examining their ideas.
That's what I took from this too.
Exactly. He makes false allegations of anti-semitism all the time, particularly when people criticise Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, so yes, he is a hypocrite. He is arguably the most public profile false accuser when it comes to anti-Semitism.
I mean - he was. And now that he had a personal reason to see the error in the thinking, he’s doing a pretty solid job of speaking against it.
He was making false allegations about anti-semitism just a few months ago. He was falsely accusing Private Eye magazine of being anti-semitic back in October.I've seen nothing to think that he's stopped between then and now. @@andrewfox368
Seems to me that David has trouble seeing prejudice anywhere other than on the right. Whereas Andrew can see that it is throughout most political idealogies. Andrew's approach to life seems much more humanist. It seems that a woke viewpoint, although started from a positive place, is now only able to be very singular in its considerations. Andrew's youthful humanist approach seemed to rankle that element of David's argument. Superb interview throughout.
Baddiel is a right wing centrist. You are politically illiterate.
Of course it's a good thing to, in Baddiel's words, 'have concern about people who are not the majority culture'. The issue is over HOW you do that. If the only way you can fight discrimination is not to remove the discrimination, but simply reverse who is on the receiving end of it, you are a dangerous ideologue, not someone genuinly after a fairer society. It's revenge you're after not a meritocracy. It's not, 'everyone should be treated equally on merit' rather, 'now it's our turn to be the victimisers'. And when this attitude comes not from minority people but from people who are part of the current majority or supposed victimiser group, it's an attempt to assuage guilt they choose to feel over who they are and their history. That's utter narcissism. It's a way of atoning for perceived wrongs while not changing your lifestyle in any meaningful way. 'Yes, I know I'm in the top 25% of wealth but ignore that. I'm a good person (honest) because I vote for a Left-wing Party & espouse progressive views'. It's allying with the societal revenge peddlers to give yourself a pat on the back. Pfft!!
I've been a fan of David Baddiel since the days of The Mary Whitehouse Experience. I appreciate the fact that he's prepared to go outside of old media and the way that he tries to provide nuance to certain situations, but nevertheless he still comes across like someone clever enough to know that the waters he's been swimming in have been poisoned with stupidity, but still can't quite bring himself to get out of the pool.
@jonnywiles3068
Yeah, I was reluctant to say this, because it felt reductive having just watched him be very careful and nuanced for 90 minutes, but it did kind of seem like he was saying that he'd be okay with the whole DEI thing if they just included Jews.
I'm with Andrew - just scrap the whole thing. Whatever small amount of good it may have done for some (though I'm not even really convinced about that) the larger effects on a societal level are incredible division and unhappiness.
*Edit:* The person I'm replying to either deleted their comment or TH-cam ate it.
Too much navel gazing means Baddiel is constant trapped on the same wheel. Round and round he goes, sometimes slow, sometimes fast. Same destination that is never properly arrived at. However, this is exactly the problem with "identity" based philiosophy/politics.
@@conrad1on I couldn't tell whether he was simply pointing out that special treatment for minorities is applied inconsistently, using his own minority as an example, or advocating for special treatment for his own minority.
He made a good case that "Jews don't count," as he says.
But, then what? It was not clear what should follow from any of that.
@@VesnaVK
I don't want to put words in his mouth, because he doesn't say outright that he wishes Jews were included as potential benefactors of DEI culture, but the fact that he claims that there is some good to those ideas suggests, at the very least, that he probably wouldn't object if those within his own minority was suddenly able to benefit from them. One might think the fact that they're not applied to every minority equally should really be another reason why those notions are not fit for purpose.
Baddiel says here that he's constantly on eggshells about how people will react to what he says these days, so perhaps that accounts for his reticence to say exactly what he means. But is he really equally worried about what some randos who might reply to him on Twitter think, rather than all the people in his industry who have the power to shun him and stop him working?
This involves more mind-reading on my part, but if I had to guess at his disposition these days, I'd say that he's intellectually savvy enough to know that a lot of these kinds of ideas are actually bad, but to say so directly risks him being excommunicated in the manner of Laurence Fox, Graham Linehan and others, who made the grave mistake of simply being honest and expressing what, in normal society, are incredibly mundane opinions that most people agree with.
who started this bullshit
David comes off as so arrogant and condescending in this interview.
When Adrew raised the point "it doesn't seem okay to say you can't do that because you're white" Baddiel's only problem with that seems to be 'but you're Jewish so you're not white', would it be okay to say it to Andrew if he wasn't Jewish? Would it be okay to prevent Andrew from being the face of his own films if he were just a white person of European descent with absolutely no 'minority' ancestry? It seems to me that if you're okay with discrimination on the basis of race you don't really get to complain when people decide it's also okay to discriminate against your race too. I think the best antidote to racism is to stop racism against all racial groups, I don't think it does any good to just change the group it's acceptable to be racist against. If you're okay with the idea of racism but you don't like it when you're the victim A) you're just a hypocrite, and, B) tough luck.
I think you meant "descent" not "dissent".
@@davidlamb7524 thanks
Hmmmm I am Polish … The topic is starting to get on my nerves .I am White and represented by the let”s face the past colonizers .Our suffering during the war is completely taken over by Jews . Similarly to the Irish we had been raided ,constantly fighting for our existence and still told we have the White privilege …. Sick and tired of it
I am half Polish and half-Irish. My grandparents were catholics in the concentration camps (Sobibor) and I had relatives in Auschwitz. I am also sick of this shit. Polish people lost 18 MILLION. But we are told the "6 million" are the most important.
The worst part is I have non-Jews saying I am an "anti-semite" because I disagree with Israel's bullying and weaponization of anti-semitism accusations. They have no skin in this game. My grandparents names are literally in the holocaust museum database. I should be quiet because some fucking guy wants to virtue signal for a genocidal state?
@@Welcome2TheInternet Not mentioning the fact the after the war we were given to Stalin as a present … My family member who was fighting for Britain had to immigrate to Argentina ,my grandfathers,s lands and properties were taken away and he landed in jail because he was fighting under Józef Piłsudski. My mother’s family was kicked out from what is now Ukraina and were prosecuted on the way by the nazi Ukrainian bandits which are getting standing ovations in Canada …. I myself witnessed Russian tanks rolling the streets …. Had passport and currency which could get me nowhere … Enough of all that “ victim olympics” ,nothing to do with skin colour !
Love Andrew he's honest and authentic. I cannot take to David, condescending and pompous.
David's woke as in he thinks identity politics is a perfectly good thing, he's just upset that people see him as an oppressor.
@@thorinhayward1124 That's exactly it, his big criticism of woke is that it doesn't see his group as an oppressed minority.
yea....he was the first to refer to hierarchy of racism.....bullshit
its a;; trumps fault
Andrew is great. Love his podcast. Love even more that he tried NOT to play the oppressed card (being Jewish) when he was trying to get his idea to audiences. Woke BS promotes racism and division. What's happening now is nothing better than allotted forms of discrimination. It's disgraceful and regressive
One of the many problems with identity politics is that it ignores the individual experience. You might be a white man but if for example you had a rough childhood and grew up in care then that's going to have a much more negative impact on your life than you being white and a man.
Well said! I don't think we should concede the point at all, because it’s so cynically divisive. Many now feel entitled to make 'antiracist' assumptions on sight, with absolutely no idea about them, their personal history, or their heritage.
They haven't even considered that 'white' is so uselessly descriptive that, for example, the descendent of a survivor of the Irish potato famine would be indistinguishable from those of their land owners, or those in parliament who blithely theorized about 'natural balance'.
Badielle needs a shave, a shower & a good shit cos that's what he talks. He's never been funny but he thinks he is
Precisely. The whole identity politics paradigm basically completely ignores economic class, which is by far the most important factor of your "identity" in most economic, educational, or often social circumstances.
They even came up with "intersectionality" as a codified means of capturing intersecting identities and their consequences, but it just serves as an amplifier (im a woman, and black, and homosexual) and completely disregards the intersection of economic class with the "oppressive" or privileged classes.
@@user-bn9ji8od3x yeah the whole "intersectional" crap just steals from the work of bahktin & his translator Kristeva: intertectuality encompasses everything ascribed to 'intersectionality" & more but in a more nuanced manner ironically without the ideological focus on being as a rung on the victim ladder from oppressor (a purely Marxist term) at the top to oppressed (read minority) at the very bottom
I've never heard of Badiel before but good lord does he suck all the air out of a room. Constantly interrupting to tell Andrew he's wrong or he doesn't agree before Andrew can finish a thought. Sadly the woke crowd are just like David, they aren't willing to listen and they think they know everything.
I had to check out early on 🤦♂️.
I have similar opinions on Baddiel but can’t ignore the broad sweeping statement at the end there - a lot of the right-wing media loves to caricature the left (and it happens the other way round too) but a *lot* of ‘woke’ people are a lot more open and receptive to others’ voices than you give them credit for
Thomas Sowell explained things simply. When asked what Jews could do to escape antisemitism he used a single word : Fail.
That's true but not mutually exclusive to another answer: Not work in cabals that promote each other over others. Or else other groups should perhaps do what the Jews do which is promote their own is probably the best lesson to learn aka "If you can beat 'em join 'em" ie do whatever they do that works. They're not the only group who do this and achieve success either and it does not take away from the fact they're competitive and talented either.
drink every time David mentions His Book
He said "juice" so many times I got thirsty. 🙂
Great!!! Some humour!!! Made me laugh indeed, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!
Ugh, what an off-putting fellow the guest is.
Badiel talking about how things are "simplified" online and proceeds to simplify things into 'left-wing, right-wing'. You can't make it up.
Doesn't know who Peter Boghossian is, thinks he discovered the concept of "hierarchy of victimhood" when "progressive stack" was in common parlans 12y before the publication of "Jews Don't Count", "ID-pol comes from a good and useful place"... I'm starting to doubt the quality of his research and expertise on the subject.
I wouldn't say his commentary is based on any deep research. @@Alhoshka
@@Alhoshka Even simply googling 'hierarchy of racism' will get a result from 2003 - and it wasn't him that said it. He has such a baseless ego.
Nah I am out after 20min because he is a disingenuous hypocrite.
Explain the logic?
@@TheJustinJ He bitches about "not wanting to be part of the team mentality" but based his own identity on his jewish team. He whines about the "hierarchy of racism" but fails to mention that Jews are at the top of that hierarchy and weaponize anti-semitism accusations to divert criticism from israel. He claims he is an atheist, but his whole schtick is based on a bronze age religion.
Now shut up.
Every insufferable woke warlord says 'we need a conversation about that'... What does this mean? And we all know who is invited to this discussion and all those that arent.
Cracking interview Andrew. From a atheist perspective, i found this chat utterly fascinating and actually didn't want it to end!
Ive always really liked David, and his forthright pov, but to hear him so utterly raw and uncut (so to speak) was a breath of fresh air!
Long may these voices of modern wisdom continue to be heard
58:37 ‘take the bait’? This guy is so self-righteous. I don’t think Andrew was setting you up, mate
Is it only me, or does David come across as quite precious about himself? And the fact that he is a Jew.
All commentators argue for their own opinions. It’s what they have always done. Jewish people can talk about whatever they want, just like everyone else. You don’t like it, TH-cam has plenty of other videos you can watch.
Never liked this feller.I gave it a go,makes my teeth itch! So full of himself,its unreal.
@@Historian212 well that's a valuable contribution :/
I'm simply surprised that his main point of criticism is not so much (or not at all) identity politics itself, but the fact that he, as a Jew, cannot enjoy privileges carried by it. Cry-baby.
Yes. He's an insufferable twat.
It's only you.
I don't remember any other of your interviewees picking questions they weren't going to answer. How charming of him.
You really should have pressed the Trans issue - we'd have seen the scale of the hollow where his brain used to be then.
Would we? What are we supposed to think of "the trans issue", in order to fulfil the criteria that makes us acceptable to you?
Yes!! He's an elder so I understand Andrews underplay of himself....but with David's portfolio I thought he'd have an opinion on such a contemporary issue!!!
What about me, Baddiel? I'm white, blue-eyed, formerly blonde haired AND JEWISH. 'White Jews Dont Count' according to Baddiel.
I think he meant that the whiteness doesn't count, or counts much less, than the Jewishness. Not that "white Jews" don't count. I took it as him suggesting that he'd like to see Jewish people concentrate on being Jewish, rather than on skin colour. That was my take on it anyway. Other opinions may differ.
@@ArachnerdGC fair enough. I'd like him to clarify his statement.
It feels as though this isn't an exchange, it's just DB spouting forth on his hobby horse and promoting his book into the bargain. He's just talking at the young bloke. Reminds me of Monkey Dust's take on Baddiel.
Yep. See how strongly he needs to assert the age gap between them 🧐 I like DB's output but I doubt I'd enjoy a pint in his company.
He was all in favour of woke when he was the one crapping on people.
Hope you don’t mind me giving some constructive criticism Andrew, either put a high pass filter of 75-100Hz on the microphones or put them on floor mounted stands, there won’t be that low thump when a guest accidentally bumps the table then.
@alunjprice : I agree. Would be nice to bring decent audio to perfection.
Dude! For sure. This guy was driving me nuts (as a headphone user). Had to stop listening it was so distracting.
Just as arrogant as he was on The Mary Whitehouse Experience telling constant jokes about masturbation and being very annoyed that he wasn’t as funny as Rob Newman. Turned this one off when he got snooty about the legend that is Peter Boghossian!
I like Baddiel, but he dismisses elements to suit his needs. For instance, dismissing the representation by Jews in entertainment/communications/media. He sort of cherry picks, "but what about in the UK." Really? Not the original epicenters of Hollywood and NYC? Ridiculous arguing technique.
He seems to be unaware that it was a Jew running the programme he thought was anti-semitic by not including them enough !
As someone of a similar age I have a different recollection to David. He said “you never really saw people of colour on tv”.
Trevor McDonald, Moira Stewart, Floella Benjamin and Derek Griffiths. And that was just the News and Play School.
Or when he was..."dressing up" as Jason Lee...
Charlie Williams (the Comedians), Johnny (Pipkins), Brinsley Forde (The Double Deckers), Don Warrington (Rising Damp), Lenny Henry, Norman Beaton, Carmen Munroe, I'm sure it's a pretty extensive list, too.
Aye. Is this what some would call gaslighting?
My fave TV show in the 80s was Desmonds, that had 1 white character who visited the barber shop every so often.
Well it also somewhat misses the point of how homogeneous Britain was 50yrs ago.
45:30 There's another reason why transgender rights activists go after J K Rowling rather than the far more offensive Ricky Gervais: misogyny.
Is Ricky more offensive?
@@stephenparry6811 His current material seems to be offending people.
I love Ricky Gervais .Trans go after JKR purely because she's a woman and a successful one at that.
Baddiel touches on an interesting subject about whether a non deaf actor can play a deaf person because mimicry is tantamount to mockery. I feel like this is a surface level opinion very typical of people on the progressive left. I have often heard that certain people shouldn’t use certain words and that context doesn’t matter. Context ALWAYS matters. If an actor plays a deaf person for comedic effect and the target of the joke is simply deafness, that is mockery. When Riz Ahmed learned BSL and delivered an amazing performance in _Sound of metal_ it wasn’t mockery, it was a heartfelt tribute to the struggles within the deaf community.
Yeah, I was confused when he said that. He didn't explain why it was mockery. Or how we discern what sorts of things would be mockery or acting.
@@VesnaVK Exactly and that is the crux of my point tbh. When you break things down and look at them properly, it is very easy to debunk such accusations.
I also thought this, what about great films like the rain man, was that mockery?
@@shloopy8427 If Rain Man was released today it would definitely be dismissed as "problematic" by the liberal elite.
I am an actress and I am so sick of this BS about people having to play the parts because they are actually deaf/ gay / whatever. The clue is in the title 'ACTING'. You train to do this, to inhabit different characters. I have never played myself though I have brought my experiences that all humans have to the role, but for chrissake you hire the person who is best at the job, who fits in with the casting, who can take direction.. End of. And by the way if Othello has to be a black person then why doesn't it work the other way round? Where is the blind casting they are always banging on about? One rule for one group quite another for the rest.
David is not as smart as he thinks
So that is the statement you want social media to hear?
@@ladymary22??
@@ladymary22 It was heard. And it seems a few people agree.
You are not as lacking as you think. Which is equally invalid.
@@charlescawley9923I think you need a hug.
David's 'critique of DEI / progressivism from a progressive POV' seems to be only that they do not recognize Jews as an oppressed minority, and if that were to be remedied tomorrow, he sounds like he'd be on board. While to me it's getting more and more obvious what he critiques is a feature, not a bug. Reminds me of those who think communism is a great idea and would work out great if only its practitioners don't 'distort' it.
Well said
Don’t think he agrees at all with DEI.
It's not apparent to me that he gets that 'diversity' in DEI is a radically rebranded concept whose essence is exactly the imposition of a new strict hierarchical pyramid of oppression which measures group worth (and institutes a new typology of discrimination) by race, gender and other identitarian traits, and which by design relegates anyone seen by the 'oppressed' as white or 'white-adjacent' including Jews to the bottom of the new value pyramid.
I don’t think so. His point seems to be that when you have a group like Jewishness that does not slot into the oppressor ‘ oppressed dynamic, it makes you question the overall framework.
David had the attitude that he was intellectually superior, and he controlled the interview. Andrew was almost bullied by an older man with more confidence than he had. Don't let them get away with it Andrew! Stand up to these people. You are easily their equal!! They were young and unsure of themselves once.
I didn't see that. David said that he disagreed on a couple of points and Andrew invited him to say why, then they discussed their opposing views without descending into a shouting match. That's a good interview.
@@pollyparrot9447 Maybe I need to give it another watch. Thank you for sharing your perspective 🙏 😊
I don't see Andrew as unsure of himself. Handled well. This is what good interviewing is all about and this one didn't look easy. Let's have more opinionated tablebashers!
I'm sure that back in the 80s/90s David even described himself as an intellectual. Who does that?
In the 1961 Census for the UK 98.9% were white British.
If you went to the Majority of Capital Cities and Towns across the world they would be majority indigenous population.. You would not expect anything else.
Yes, all people indigenous to North-Western Europe. @@Besthinktwice
Woke is basically The Borg
I wasn't a massive fan of David before the interview. Post interview, my original impression still stands.
It's unusual that I don't find someone more likeable after this style of interview.
Evil happens when you start thinking of people as things, it evolves into treating people as things which is deplorable, even when you treat yourself as a thing.
The interesting part was when Andrew spoke about being told they won't show his documentary unless he has a person from an ethnic background present it. David basically said its fine that he was discriminated against for being a white man but wrong that he was discriminated against for being Jewish. Here lies the problem. If he accepts that then he has no real argument that jews should not be discriminated against or forgot, because either all discrimination is wrong or its not. Imo no one should be discriminated against unless there is a very, very, good reason like only hiring women at refuges. It should not have mattered at all is andrew was white, or a man or Jewish what should have mattered was whether or not he made a documentary they thought would be draw in viewers and be interesting to people. That's it. It's also so patronising if I was making a documentary and it got accepted by the BBC in this climate I would wonder if I got it through on merit or the fact I tick a diveristy box being a women.
I've listened to David on this subject twice now, and I think he's putting out a mixed message. He seems to think some forms of discrimination are fine, but other forms, specifically against minorities, are not. I think he also disapproved of categorising people, but then later categorised people. He seemed to think diversity was a good thing, whereas I think in fact diversity can just make things more difficult and complicated.
Then diversity in Israel should be a good thing, no?
"Diversity" is a catch all phrase. But in modern American re-wssigned meanings is means "a group of people not sharing the same appearance"
And therefore, it's meaningless.
The smallest minority in any society is the individual. Any and all attacks on the individual, and on that persons rational actions to live their own life, so long as they live without harming other people, any actions against them to coerce or manipulate or punish them, is abhorrent, immoral, and evil.
@@zane62135There is diversity in Israel.
Hes got red flags ALL over his statements...
"We need a conversation about that"? Total elitist viewpoint. The puritans at it again.
This is a thoughtful comment, thanks @MsMounen
He wants his tribe to be white or a minority on the fly for maximum situational benefit and everyone else to not have a problem with this.
Argues that his group needs to be given a higher status. Predictable stuff
Baddiel's problem seems to be "There's a party and only the cool kids get invited, and I'm not one of the cool kids! It's not fair! I want to be one of the cool kids!" It's pathetic.
I really enjoyed listening to this. It's good to hear people who may not necessarily agree with each other having a conversation. I think the point about teams is so important, it's not easy to go against the expected opinion of your peers and i think that's why people get swept along with the madness created on social media.
He got the Congressional hearing wrong. The questions had moved on from specific statements and sought to establish a baseline. What the world heard was exactly what we heard; the professors refused to even acknowledge that explicitly "calling for genocide" violated their bullying/harassment codes.
I LOVE how much of a seeker David seems to be. I hope, HOPE he keeps going down this route and sees the ridiculous sham this whole identity thing is. It's a sham and a chase for status. It's a fight for power with a different currency.
I wonder how old you are and where in the world you hail from. I'm slightly younger than him, but i remember the days he talks about. A black person on TV was a BIG deal. A gay was even bigger. To clarify not gay people, but gay characters (not the same thing), Freddy Mercury was pretty famous and i think you might have heard of him. Minorities were hugely underepresented. Whats wrong with more folks from more backgrounds having the same oportunities as folks with less melanin? Just have to watch that pendulum swing.
The fact is that pendulum will settle down and the folks decrying the inclusion of minorities will not be viewed well by either history or anyone really.
I wonder if you can spot my unconscious bias, i almost missed it.
@@jamesmaybrick2001Listening to Andrew and 1000s of other testimonies, im starting to believe diversity means anyone but white straight male? Everyone was raging at the Argentinian team and the womens football team for being white, yet absolute no one bats an eyelid at asian team, african team or middle east team being all one colour.
You get the impression 'a group of white people' are seen as offensive these days... I could go on and on.
Andrew tries so hard not to be biased and that's important. I think he manages.
@@jamesmaybrick2001 I don't know how old you are but when I grew up we had kenny Everett, hinge and bracket, lenny henry, the sitcom Desmonds, mel brooks films in the cinema lampooning everyone. DB is old enough to remember all that too. as for underrepresented I disagree they are over represented now which is why if you ask the average person in the street they will say 10% of the UK population is gay and 30% is black, the truth is nothing like that its a 5 times over representation but interestingly those numbers match the representation in the media, so the media is giving a false perception of the demographics of the UK, and thats not a good thing.
I’ve noticed a thing that is a warning sign for me about a person and it’s when I get a message and I’m then put into a group where another person has decided who’s in it, I don’t like that at all and it’s a form of modern day bullying. It happens in work, social life of hobbies and I think it’s bad for society. It’s a group of individuals who want to exclude others because of x or y when they might only disagree with the unselected person or persons on one thing but are otherwise a very nice.
This to me is modern day cancellation, you must like all I say or you are not in my picked group and deserve to be left out ⚠️
( ps the only minority that isn’t allowed on tv or to present any program is the working class with their views, but the same tv people write mocking comedy about them constantly )
Are working class people a minority?
@@MsMounen yes on tv they are nowhere to be seen except as figures of fun and exploitation, you can’t have those people presenting a show or putting their racist views over !
Called cliques, it's why I stopped attending a church handiwork group. I haven't been near that church in years.
@@kellysouter4381Well said, and good for you! Unfortunately people have always been too keen to form cliques, and social media exploits this weakness cynically and corrosively.
@@MsMounenOf course not...but they are on TV.
Andrew, I saw a fantastic interview with David Bernstein, his book is called Woke Antisemitism. It was on a channel called Quillette. He’s an American academic. Can highly recommend
Thanks, I have found it on TH-cam 🙂👍
Maybe it feels a bit like being a female who is critical of gender identity ideology.
The Litmus Test isn't a pass/fail test. It measures a spectrum...
David and Andrew have a lot to learn about the political landscape in America. David, who worries that "Jews don't count" finds a politician, Ellise Stefanik, standing up for Jews but she's on the right, and he doesn't want to be associated with that, so he dismisses her. Then he sees academics who can't decide whether calling for the destruction of Jews during intense campus protests is against their Code of Conduct. But he wants to be associated with these "smart ladies." So he makes excuses for them. Don't expect the rest of us to follow that "logic."
They also need to educate themselves on the Abraham Accords. Any other politician would have won the Nobel Peace Prize for that work.
Seems like we need to invent yet another meaningless word, conservaphobia.
Wow, aren't you patronizing.
@@treesart6914what was patronizing? It was relevant ..
@@kungfreddie agree. Not patronizing.
Pluckrose, Boghossian and Lindsay: the Grievance Papers. These were sent to Social Science publications, not scientific publications. Seven were published. The authors were 'outed' by a journalist who saw through them. Otherwise, more would probably have been published.
Pluckrose and Lindsay: 'Cynical Theories'. (Book)
Didnt they say dog that hump other dogs in parks is a sign of patriarchy.
True, but even respected science journals are publishing papers with dubious arguments about 'the sex spectrum' now. Colin Wright's recent talk to the Genspect Denver conference covers some of them.
Cynical Theory is an astonishingly good book, very overlooked. Totally dismantles the Critical Theory principle and exposes the insanity from the ground up. The book that opened my own eyes and turned me from continuing down the path of neo leftist thinking.
@@notbloodylikely4817 I hope u heal and remove yourself from the cult hivemind.
Baddiel says economic class inequity is ignored by progressives who now focus on identity politics instead but he doesn't see identity politics as a bad thing. He seems naive: How beneficial it's been for the elites--especially the ultra rich who want to appear to be progressive--to turn the poors to squabbling against each other's identities instead of banding together against the elites.
Good interview, shame he never mentioned his book.
He’s been keeping his head down for a while, hasn’t he! Leaving it for the rest of us to point out what going wrong til the pendulum starts swinging back. Sorry, Andrew. Baddiel had his chance to be the canary in the coal mine and he kept schtum.
Funny thing about art, David... once you put it into the world, you don't have much if any control over how it will be interpreted. And sometimes authors even realize that they weren't actually saying what they thought they were saying.
This is very true....you let go of it!!!! Interpretation is individual based on their own parameters.
Loving these videos. It's always good to get different opinions on all sides. Do i agree with Mr Baddiel.... No but it gives us hope for finding solution of how to solve this identity politics mess we find ourselves in. Kudos to you Andrew, if we dont debate in good faith how can we maintain what humanity we have left.
And thats the key, how to preserve what our socieities and culture has strived to achieve for all people, tolerance, democracy and liberty rather than let it be dissolved in a matter of moments for cultish dogma and virtue signalling for those that crave power and status.
Good work Andrew, we need channels like yours, keep it real.
"Identity Politics is a good thing"
Sorry David, no its not and your point doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
He's talking out of both side of his mouth on this issue, its staggering!
A very interesting discussion, but I think Mr Baddiel leans into the opressor/opressed narrative a bit too much. I understand his point about the precipice of acting vs. mockery when it comes to actors playing disabled characters... but isn't that the entire purpose of acting as a career? If you are a good actor, there is no chance the audience will interpret the acting as mockery. Take Sean Penn in I Am Sam, for example. Or Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump. Or Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. These actors were superb at their job, and they portrayed their characters with the utmost respect.
If an actor is suited to a role and is capable of doing their job properly, there should be no "diversity criteria" requirements. It completely defeats the purpose of acting.
Andrew, each interview gets better and better!
This is your format.,,
I hope everyone watching these interviews understands that you don't no agree with anyone,, it's a format to make you think. To open doors you didn't know were there.
This kind of interview is what we've lost. Allowing people to speak openly and if you disagree.. that's great!! It's just allowing people to express their opinions openly without fear.
One hundred p.c agree. On a few u.tubes I've expressed a view as part of a discussion and later had some very nasty personal replies. Yet without debate we can't expand. And often words infer an unintended meaning. I'm interested in all the heretic shows Andrew gold did that I've had time to see. I'd like to see Mr icke invited. I always felt he was unfairly censored which made him go radical but he uncovered some relevant stuff. Like you. I hear others out even if I don't agree.
he was once a great guy now part of club
The idea of a Sacred Circle of Minorities is silly. People should be treated fairly and justly. One of the problems of Western cultures at present is the active worship of minority status as something praiseworthy in its own right, rather than merely promoting mutual tolerance and civility to our countrymen.
Bizarre defence of the 3 professors - whatever was said initially, the Republican politician did specify is it ok to call for genocide of Jews. 29:36
no she didn't.
@@Welcome2TheInternet I don't recall if that specific politician did, but I do recall one specifically asking if calling for genocide of Jews was against school policy, and they wouldn't say "yes, it's against school policy". Never mind quibbling about what is or isn't "calling for genocide", which i would expect, she wouldn't even say genocide of Jews is bad. The clip I saw was asked to Claudine Gay, now former president of Harvard.
@@Welcome2TheInternet What Ms Stafanik said was (word for word): "Ms Magill, at Penn, does calling for the genocide of jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct. Yes or no?"
Magill would not give a yes or no answer but said it was context-dependent.
David seems to think he is the final arbitrator of what's right and wrong. I found him condescending.
He’s like every other commentator. If you disagree, fine. What’s your problem?
@@Historian212he just said
agree...Baddiel is pompous and takes himself massively seriously
Hard to trust a poster whose name is actual John Birch (as in John Birch society)
Aren’t you what he was talking about?
a bright but totally woke and uber privileged life .
Thank god, Baddiel just referred to 'majority culture' - this is where I've thought the whole identity politics thing has gone wrong ever since I heard the phrase white privilege back in the early 20teens.
The wrong impression is given that its something inherently white. It's not. Its majority privilege. It just so happens to be that the movement is based in countries like USA and UK where historically the most powerful groups have all been european (not 'group', groups. People of English and Spanish descent are not the same culturally, regardless of their genetic make up. There IS no global 'white' culture any more than that there is a 'black' one. In theory there is a Jewish culture and a Muslim culture, but very like Christianity or any other religion, I suspect it is likely that's more a factor of the common faith and I would also imagine it varies quite wildly depending on the country or even city a given Jew grew up in).
But go to bangladesh (or Iran, or really wherever - anywhere where white poeple are not the majority) and you will find the equivalent prejudices and biases amongst whichever group is the majority/most powerful.
It's just the human condition - if you're in a majority group, you will have privileges. That's not inherently evil, it's what you do or don't do with those privileges that matter, exactly like being very rich. If you want to call it American White Privilege you'd at least be warmer, but now we're stacking up the labels and eventually if you stack them up high enough you're just going to swing all the way around to where you aren't thinking about group identity at all cos there'll be no groups, just individuals. It's a self-eating philosophy as far as I can tell. It's trying to codify something complex and nuanced into our behaviours with hard structure - that won't work, and as humans we don't need it, on an individual interaction level, we used to just call all this awareness of other's background, influences and blindspots as 'building rapport'.
I do agree with Baddiel that intersectionality and being aware of that isn't at all bad plan, it's essential to be as aware of your blind spots as possible and be willing to be clarified by someone else.
But if you make your collection of labels your entire personality then you are more likely to feel aggrieved and attacked if someone who uses different labels or feels that *your* labels make little sense to them then challenges you in any way. That's how we've really started getting tribes collecting themselves around those labels and before you know it you've started dehumanising people - maybe you start lumping everyone who disagrees with you as 'left' or 'right', for instance.... It's how you get the LGBT 'community' (again I find the concept of an LGBT community arguable by this point, as it's rightly become such a broad church, you might as well try saying 'labour voters are a community') tearing itself apart internally with bi-phobia, unable to resolve the politics of feminism vs trans rights to the point people just form ranks and don't try to reach across....
...its just humans humaning incredibly lazily, which before you know it, leads to you've got division, then you're very quickly on the Dark side path of fear > anger > hate > suffering.
I happen to be white and straight. If you think from that you can predict my personality and beliefs... well, you're an idiot. How many more labels do you need me to give myself before you've triangulated? 3? 7? 33? Where's the line? Is it the same for someone else?
There isn't one, so I'd love it if activists on woke issues - for and against - could pack it in with the projection. I don't care if you're an activist like Suella Braverman, obsessed with the idea that Wokism is an actual movement and must be fought, or someone who claims to *be* woke whilst hypocritically throwing around 'white' this and 'white' and denying antisemitism exists when it's in front of you... you really gotta stop projecting whole personalities or emnity on to people with a different idea to you. Its so intellectually LAZY.
One of the best dissections of Identity politics I've read.
Well said!
Best comment 👏🏼
This guy did blackface on TV in the '90s and bullied people for cheap laughs, and now he's some Guardian reader intellectual lecturing people about identity politics.
STOP BANGING THE GOD DAMN DESK, DAVID!!!
Why don't I hear it??
@@NataliaMartan It depends on what device you're listening to this on. Speakers on most laptops/tablets/smartphones filter out the low frequencies. But plug in headphones or connect things like AirPods and you get a wider frequency range, including the rumble range of the table thumps.
@@RedshiftDougal I was listening on headphones and I didn't hear thing. Some folks are just too picky.
Get better headphones, the thumping is almost constant @@corydorastube
@@cookiedoughdynamo2747 My cans are fine. Get a life and stop whining.
I am disappointed with Baddiel's blinkered thinking.
Agree with everyone's comments saying DB is just a woke numpty who wants to get in the club with his own special identity. The ironic thing is how he manages to genuinely isolate himself in this position from both anti-woke anti-identitarianism and woke identitarianism. I guess he really does have the unique viewpoint he claims, but so does everyone who has an ill thought out take they think is so ground breaking that no one can see their true genius.
Badiel claims to not want to be on any one groups "side," but he sure does do a very good impression of being on one!
He does appear to be very aggrieved that the Jewish community does not have, in his opinion, the same perceived minority status as others.
Personally, I do my best to see beyond one's innate characteristics as they provide no information whatsoever on one's character, skill set & intention. I'm sure my opinion upsets Badiel greatly -I mean, how on earth would he cope with having to be judged on who he is inside & not identity politics?
Blackface Baddiel the vile bully and instigator of hatred is the last person I would ever listen to. Zero respect for him.
Baddiel describes the narcissist dynamic in this. They have no 'person' inside them so they have to paste on a personality to exist. Such a shame - for humanity.
tell the guest to stop banging on the table, it's really poor for the audio experience. Love your work generally, didn't care for this guest a ton but that's okay!
Not a conversation. A lecture. By Baddiel . For the record‘globalisation’ has been mentioned by all .
Had a close friend who worked in psych wards back in the 90's and the worst affected patients in there were cannabis users. It wasn't anywhere near the strength it is today.
This smacks of Dame Maureen Lipman ironically accusing Dame Helen Mirren of "jew facing" for accepting the title role in Golda.
There could be many reasons why a minority group actor might not be available for a project, so assuming racism is so White Fragility (DiAngelo) .
I can't imagine Harrison Ford only acting roles as the skilled carpenter that he is.
I have not seen one Nelson Mandela film portrayed by a Xhosa actor, as any black or mixed race actor is apparently acceptable, so I smell double standards and hypocrisy (again)
He seems very woke establishment even when he tries to sound balanced. A very intelligent individual I am sure. What do I know? 😅
He honestly thinks he's 'reasonable' because he swims in a sea of pretentious herd-think.
What do you know? Enough to have spotted how much he is in line with the established discourse coming from this current brand of leftism (I resist using the "W" word). The guy bemoans identity politics, but then complains about growing up in a society where the main views came from "white men" (imagine that eh? In England of all places?), and used the term "white bread" (he even went to the trouble of giving us some quotation marks) where the derision was plain for all to see. He uses terms like "people of colour" (shudder), and balks at the idea of delving into the issues around class. Sounds like every other Metropolitan, middle class leftists to me.
You saw how dismissive he was when Peter Boghossian was mentioned too. He really is a smug, self-aggrandising prick who will put people off even when he makes good points. Baffling how he's still around as he was never really funny in the first place. I'm still perplexed in regards to him becoming famous for being a comedian.
@@lutherblissett8780 You and me both. He vaguely repulsed me back in the day and continues to do so today.
Did that just go on for another 20min after David said he had to go, just because he got the chance to promote his own work?
Basically he said, I didn’t mind DEI when White British people (or Whites anywhere) were being negatively impacted but as soon as DEI no longer benefitted me, I no longer support it.
When I think of David Baddiel I just imagine him and Jo Brand calmly wandering through the Taskmaster house.
I do agree with Baddiel that this channel is overall quite anti woke, which I'm generally as well. But I like that a different opinion is heard here, even if I don't agree with it. Some youtube interviewers don't have room for differing opinions without ridiculing them. I like seeing the calm disagreement here where both of you argue your cases, at least until David started interrupting your every sentence.
Honestly this is one of my favourite channels. Every interview is fascinating. Good job Andrew.
Andrew this is an excellent interview. I found it really interesting and entertaining. I would love to see more interviews with guests where you have the intellectual discussions mixed in with the humour.
Microphone shock mounts are a wonderful thing....
I always relate David Baddiel to those Mary Whitehouse Experience old Professor discussing "History Today" sketches with Rob Newman, especially when he is head to head with someone.
That's you, that is.
Just a heads up, all through the interview, there was constant thudding coming through the microphone. Perhaps bumping the table over and over and over again. Had to stop listening.
Great conversation. Nice to meet you, David.
Hegel never took sides either:
'It often happens in philosophy that a one-sided view sets itself up beside the totality, claiming to be something particular and fixed vis-a-vis the latter. But, in fact, what is one-sided is not fixed and does not subsist on its own account; instead, it is contained within the whole as sublated. The dogmatism of the metaphysics of the understanding consists in its adherence to one-sided thought-determinations in their isolation, whereas the idealism of speculative philosophy involves the principle of totality and shows itself able to overgrasp the one-sidedness of the abstract determinations of the understanding. Thus, idealism will say, "The soul is neither just finite nor just infinite, but is essentially both the one and the other, and hence neither the one nor the other." In other words, these determinations are not valid when they are isolated from one another but only when sublated'.
- 'Encyclopaedia Logic'
Frank Skinner says he and David Badiel are still friends. He added that he gave in a lot 😊 .....
If people don't understand your play, it's a bad play. Luckily some people enjoyed it for what it wasn't so he should be grateful for that,at least, but no............those thickos that don't understand his genius!
I gave up at 11 minutes
Overall it was a good interview, and while I don't always agree with David Baddiel's views I think you both made some great points and I like to hear people coming from differing points of view.
I do find it interesting that Baddiel can't seem to see the obvious similarity;
He agrees Jewish people seem to be the only people you're allowed to be subconsciously racist to in UK culture, because they're seen as Rich and Powerful (also known as privilege) while he doesn't seem to find an issue with the allowed VERY CONSCIOUS and often openly stated racism against non-Jewish white people in UK culture, due to their perceived "privilege". You even try to bring that up regarding the Asian BBC guy who openly stated having so many white people made him feel uncomfortable. Barmy.
An important conversation with some nuance, not as much as I'd hope as Baddiel interrupts each time he is afraid that Gold will say something that will have to make him align with Gold's ideas. It ends up just being rude and cutting him off to constantly make his own point and Gold has to cede the floor as he is the host of the show and that is just good manners. And I agree that Adam Phillips is a wonderful thinker. I read his case study book, "On Kissing, Tickling, and Being Bored" in graduate school and it really left an impact.
On one hand it was a mind opener. I am not a Jew and I did think of them as a minority, but never as a minority that needs to be represented….
On the other hand he is very condescending and he seems to undermine all the reasons why Jews are not seen as a minority that needs protection. I think the riches they have is enormously disproportionate to the numbers they are. And minorities do tend to go with colour. I am a minority in Europe, but with my skin colour no one gives me the right to complain and I am happy with that!!
Weed also stopped 10 years of legal opiate use for me.
I'm the expert on weed 😊 😂 I could have torn david apart on this 😂 I think people mistake the high as being something like schizophrenia because it stimulates your minds eye and your thoughts become more intense but it goes away if it was so bad why would all of us have a cannabis system within us and also produce sativa thc the part that gets you high the media have always said it makes you stupid the scientists however say its in our bodies for the opposite to help us learn fact and also for dietary reasons and happiness its an anti depressant also he says its stronger now skunk that's another media thing skunk is just cannabis real cannabis not hemp which is another plant from the same family but doesn't get you high its things like coke people should avoid that really can cause mental health issues and rapidly
Andrew, love all of your content. If I may be a nerdy douche, might i suggest either isolating your mics from the boomy table ( with freestanding mic stands) or using a bass cut to remove the table rumbles from arm movements, etc? Thanks again for great content.
Yeah, I'm listening on headphones, at first I thought the bangs and bumps were coming from my neighbours through the wall before I realised! :--))
Here in suburban Australia ,we would not know a Jew if you paid us .We have seen the specials on tiny Jewish groups in Bondi and we always hear about Jews in U.S entertainment .In reality, I meet no one who wants to be seen as Jewish (even if they might have ancestry)nor have I ever come across discrimination of Jewish folk .Australians tend to judge the individual ,not his religion.
Also in suburban Australia I went to school with a Jewish brother and sister. They were quiet and pleasant people.