Do Stop Start Systems Save Fuel?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.ค. 2024
- Stop start system automatically switch off the engine and restart it again when you are in neutral. The idea is to save fuel but some people believe this is not true as starting the engine uses more fuel than is saved from having the engine switched off. In this video I put it to the test.
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00:00 Stop start switched on
01:16 The car
01:30 What is stop start
02:05 Jerky gas pedal
03:34 Energy recuperation
05:45 Is stop start bad?
09:12 Busy traffic stop start on
11:45 Conditions and heating
12:57 Driving Style
13:43 Half way stop start on
14:44 Using the trip computer
15:54 Low efficiency when slow
18:18 Battery & starter motor
19:15 End with stop start on
20:16 Stop start switched off
25:06 Half way stop start off
25:53 Stiff first gear
27:47 Busy traffic stop start off
28:49 Conditions stop start off
30:09 End with stop start off
30:46 Cost comparison - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
The imperial MPG figures are correct in this video but some of the conversions may be wrong as my convertor has proven to be unreliable.
Have you tried specifiying UK or US gallons to make conversions more reliable? they're different amounts at 1 uk gallon to about 1.2 us gallons.
Yes, definitely trying to specify it, sometimes I think it changes without me noticing. I'll be more careful with it in future.
I didn't even know there're different gallons in UK and US. Now the MPG is even more confusing :D
P.S: filling the car in litres adds up more confusion.
Don't sweat it CD the figures are just for indication but a very interesting topic presented well
no stop start systems are only there to. make ur car wear out faster. therefor parts break faster which require energy to produce and ship. more proof nobody is doing anything about the polution problem. cuz our answer is recycling but all that is, is shipping our toxic garbage to another country to fill up their land or even better just dump it in the ocean. which is were a good portion of our waste gos. the micro plastics are even in the food chain now. good job idiots yall dont deserve a planet to live on.
Stop start will save fuel. but, on many cars, puts extra wear into the starter motor and battery. If you drive whilst using aircon and other accessories, the car may have to restart to protect the battery. Potentially the money saved by the engine not running could be outweighed by replacing the battery and starter motor more frequently than in a traditional car.
I cannot talk about starter motors, but by observation in the new cars with auto start stop they are more beefy than usual. On batteries I can talk with data, on a Jeep Wrangler JL the battery lasted exactly the same time while S/S enabled vs not. I disabled SS right after changing the battery since I thought that was the culprit but the second battery lasted exactly the same time. I got shy of 3 years on each. Note mine is the 2018 so no mild hybrid just the regular 3.6 v6 pentastar engine
Stop start does not save fuel in my car! Seat leon diesel auto. The difference is about 30 miles for every £100 of fuel. Tested it many many times, I'm an uber driver so do lots of miles 😢.
@@holymoly40 The fuel you save is neglible. I had a 2.7l V6 citroen a while back, it sipped 2l per hour at idle. smaller more efficient engines could use maybe about half to a third of that. Driving into London is hell for the starter and eventually the battery.
@@holymoly40 If you didn't stop long enough, you'll use more fuel.
I think this system have to be improved with a button for instant engine on/off.
I keep the auto stop on, but I have to predict every stopping time to decide whether to turn off the auto stop and it's annoying.
For me cars lasted forever long before it was invented, so I just leave it off to avoid the potential risks
In Canada we are familiar with US mpg but we officially use the L/100km system.
Hi Richard,
I am just letting you know that I passed my New Zealand restricted licence test today! There is not much content online about the NZ restricted or full tests (especially nothing as detailed as your videos), so I appreciate them greatly! Even if the rules are slightly different, you have made me a more confident driver and have given me the more general information I needed to pass my test!
Cheers,
Vinnie
That's great to hear! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Congratulations. There's one tip I'd like to spread since some people forget but you might already know this, but turn on headlights when it's raining. I was driving the other day and realized the poor visibility.
Remember to always indicate out of a roundabout. Even when you're going straight. Good luck when you go for you full!
Hi and well done. Took me three goes, due to nerves. I've been driving now for 46 years, some of the time in London, and have never had points on my licence. Enjoy your new skill and treat each drive as an opportunity to learn and improve it. Remember, you have the weapon.
Ahhh restricted ! I remember those days! No passengers and curfew by 10pm .. but I remember similar elation
I feel most stop-start systems are over-eager when paired with automatic transmissions and will cut the engine just before wheels come to a complete stop. This causes really annoying jolts when stopping so if I'm driving an automatic it's the second thing I disable in slow traffic. The first one is the lane assist.
Agreed. I switch my automatic car Stop/Start off because it's just so sensitive and frustrating if you're creeping.
A lot of these features on modern cars are so annoying, sure they are there to help pass all these safety and emissions regulations and maybe to sound cool on the brochure, but goddamn do they get irritating real fast.
This almost caused an accident for me... I was driving Skoda Kodiaq 2019 and I came to a busy intersection, I was going to join the fast road and I saw a small gap I could squeeze into, but just when I hit the gas pedal the engine shut off and it took a few precious seconds to restart and I had to slam the breaks because no way I get into that gap any more and didn't want to be stuck in the middle of the intersection.
It should cut the engine only when you have stopped completely. With manual it seems to have a good logic to it, but with automatic it's annoying...
MY VWs have never done that. Actually, I use so little braking force that sometimes I have to press harder (while having just stopped) to get the engine to stop.
@@vivahate100 The first day that I had stop start my wife and I disliked it. The next day we liked it. Took a while to see what the benefit was. VW engines always create some vibration. They don't when stopped. The startup is nice and gradual too.
I sometimes drive to Frederick, MD. I can drive almost the entire distance (about 50 miles) with far less annoyance due to traffic. Around Harpers Ferry there are always backup and creeping traffic. Adaptive Cruise works well for this. When it stops it will automatically resume if the stop is only for a few seconds.
I just want to say I passed my test last week with 2 minor faults. Thank you for all of the videos as they have been super helpful :)
That's great news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Just wanted to drop a thank you. Your videos really helped me pass on third attempt at one of the top 15 most difficult test centers in the UK. I found it so reassuring to hear your story as well on how you passed your test.
Thanks for the great videos!!
That's great to hear. Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Just wanted to thank you for your videos man! I just passed my drivers license test today first try, thanks in large part to your videos. Although we don't drive on the left in my country, your videos were still the best advisory content on the entirety of youtube (atleast among the languages I know). Keep up the great work!
That's really great to hear! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Really interesting video. And thank you! I moved to the UK 8 months ago and today I passed my practical driving test! I never would have been able to without your helpful videos. Thank you so much for what you do!
That's great news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Passed on the 13th with a New 23 reg on the way at 17!! Your tips helped me a lot to pass with 2 minors.
That's great news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
I passed my test today with 3 minors and had an absolutely amazing examiner to do it with. I am super grateful for the examiner I had. Thank you, Conquer, for driving for your videos they have helped me to pass my test today 👏.
I thought it would be an adult conducting the test?
Not 3 kids
@Tom Elwood No I meant three driving faults
@@beamboy07 No, I meant three driving faults
That's great news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
I passed back in the summer, your videos boost my confidence. Thank you
The reason why your transmission is easier to get into first gear with the autostop active is because to activate it, the clutch has to be engaged (foot off pedal) when you are stopped. You engage the clutch (foot on pedal) in order to re-start the engine, but in doing so, you're actually doing something else necessary to engage gears smoothly: You get everything rotating again. When your engine is stopped and your car is not moving, all of the components in your transmission have stopped moving too. As the engine restarts, it begins everything spinning again inside your transmission because it's still in the process of disengaging the clutch as it's starting. Some of that rotation is transferred through to the transmission just before it completely disengages. Synchromesh transmissions really don't "synch" all that well unless the components inside it are rotating. In order for gear engagement to be silky smooth, you have to get everything moving inside your transmission again, and that's exactly what your starter is doing when it re-starts your engine JUST as you're depressing the clutch pedal.
With the autostop inacative, it doesn't get a chance to do this. Coming up to a stop, you disengage the clutch, pop it into neutral, and sit for a few seconds. What happens then if you're sitting long enough is that all of those gears and synchros and shafts inside your transmission come to a stop as well, and then when you want to move again, you are trying to force the 1st gear synchros to engage without any rotation in the transmission components. The extra effort required to get it into 1st is your transmission synchronizers protesting.
There are several solutions for this ...
- Just before you try to jam it into 1st after sitting and WHILE IN NEUTRAL, let your foot off the clutch all the way and then immediately depress the clutch pedal again. What this will do is get everything rotating again. Then try to engage 1st.
- Try engaging another gear first, like 2nd or 3rd. Sometimes they will be "more aligned" than 1st gear synchros and when you engage those gears, you may cause the 1st gear synchros to move into a better alignment for engagement. (It's another way to get things moving in there. Do you see the common theme?)
- If you are at a short stop, don't take it out of gear to begin with. Leave it in 1st gear. Side note: You can engage 1st just as you're coming up to a stop. But be ginger. Those synchros really need to speed up if you're going to do it this way. Like ... 5kph or lower tops.
- If you're at a longer stop, try leaving the transmission in neutral (foot off clutch) and then when you're ready to go, depress the clutch pedal, pop it in 1st and away you go. If you do it this way, you will find that it shifts into 1st like a hot knife through butter ... That's because everything inside your transmission is still rotating and already up to speed!
By the way... This **IS NOT** a fault of the transmission or the car. It's how a manual transmission works.
Yep, this is exactly it - its the synchros. Though this is definitely something that is worse on some transmissions than others. I have an NC Miata and I also noticed that this car is more finicky with shifts into 1st compared to other manuals I've driven. I guess the design must be similar. I always quickly shift into 2nd and back into 1st if I notice significant resistance.
Yes I understand this, although I like to use neutral for even a short stop as I like to stay off the clutch. Also, it is a design fault of the transmission because most manual gearboxes don't have this problem. When the oil is properly hot it doesn't have this problem. This gearbox is known to be weak and I think it's on it's 4th iteration, also a dual mass flywheel was needed to protect it too. The transmission on the previous generation car was a bit heavier but seems to be more reliable.
how does this correlate with auto trans? My car has a auto shut off feature.
@@uhhh684 It doesn't. This thread applies only to manual transmissions.
One of my previous cars had a rather worn rear gear. This clutch depress-press technique was the main way for me to make the gear engage properly. They are usually desynchronised anyway, so any wear doesn't contribute to smooth shifting.
Another good example, albeit not related to transmission, is turning the wheels when standing still vs moving. Rolling friction, as opposed to static friction when standing still, eases turning considerably and saves the resource of the steering mechanism and amplifier.
Just had to replace the starter motor in my 2011 BMW 530d due to being worn out from the stop/start feature. So worth balancing the cost of replacing that against any savings.
(Also maybe worth allowing for the cost of the breakdown recovery when it leaves you with a non-starting car in the centre of Oxford!)
Yeah ... there went all you ever saved on gas, and more
I worked for a courier company, about the first thing the owner told me was to always disable stop-start !
If you disable it, you should never have starter issues as they're made beefier to cope with more starts, thus last longer without S-S
Its not worn because Start-Stop, its worn because its a BMW. Terrible reliability overall.
Was this the original starter? I've replaced starter motors more frequently than every 10 years. They do wear out.
@@j_taylor yes it was but I have also had cars for longer than this without needing them and remember, this is an updated starter motor.
I’m not saying the lifespan was bad I’m just saying it would have lasted MUCH longer had I turned off the stop start
12-13 years on something like a starter is pretty good. If it was a regular one you probably would have had it wear out in that time too. Anecdotally I know after a little over a decade I needed to replace one on a 99 Camry and that didn't have stop-start. A friend of mine has a 2008 Element that needed a starter replacement in 2021.
We had a CX5 diesel with stop/start for six years. Stop start saved us about 1 litre per year, (because, diesel) but I had to replace the stop/start battery three times over that period. None of the batteries were eligible for warranty (because, stop/start) and they are expensive batteries. So, we saved less than $10 in fuel, but it cost about $900 extra in batteries. Maybe more, since for comparison the ute that I had for all of that period never had a battery replacement once while the CX5 saw four batteries in that period (the original, two replacements, plus the one I had to put in it just before I got rid of it). Petrol engines use a lot more fuel when idling (maybe a couple of litres per hour for a 2L 4 cylinder) however I'm still not a big fan of stop start. No matter how much fuel it can save in a passenger car it's still extra wear and tear on battery systems and starting systems. Since my wife passed away last year I sold the CX5 and bought a Suzuki Jimny - a more economical vehicle (if you drive it appropriately) with much simpler systems, and no stop/start rubbish. I don't miss it at all.
It's the biggest pile of garbage that climate alarmists came up with. Turn that shit off and forget about it. It's cheaper to buy the car software adapter than replacing a starter, battery and wearing the engine prematurely.
Passed today with 4 minors. Thank you Richard. Your anticipation and awareness video really helped me. Glad I came across it. Wow 🎉
That's fantastic news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Passed today zero faults! Your videos helped immensely thank you !
What an achievement! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
perfect timings! And that is not a neglegible saving.
Also, I know that the last version of Fiat Panda, the mild hybrid, equipped with 3-cyl NA "Firefly" engine has an interesting stop&start system with BSG and an auxiliary battery (under driver's seat) that allows to have the engine turned off not only when the car is still, but also when coasting in neutral, under 30 km/h, in safe conditions, while keeping all the services on.
I watched your driving in Madeira and this S&S video makes me wonder if you noticed it (but didn't mention since it was not the point of that episode).
Greetings 👋🏼
I did mention it actually. It had a good stop start system. At least I think I remember mentioning it.
The stop-start system in my car also reacts to the force I use on the brakes, the harder I brake, the more likely it is to turn off the engine.
My fiat panda does that.
Does your stop-start engage before the car has come to a complete halt?
@@manoz6194 In my VW Arteon it does. The stop start will engage when braking and I'm below about 5-10mph. It will also turn itself back on when it notices the car in front start to move away
Richard, big thanks for doing these videos loaded with useful information even beyond the original topic. I couldn't figure out why my car behaves exactly the same as yours on a cold start. It's a bit annoying, but at least good to know it's just something that modern cars do and I don't have to worry about it
If you wait 30 seconds - one minute after starting the engine, it won’t act like that. You are not supposed to drive off unless you let the car at least 30 seconds - idealy one minute after starting it cold. If you wait, the oil has enough time to get to all the components and the revs will come down to under 1000RPM and you will be able to drive gently.
Passed yesterday 🎉🎉 can't understate how helpful these videos have been!
Now part of the "Passed but still watching" club 😂
That's fantastic news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Hi Richard, once again thanks for the amazing well explained video. All though I do like to enjoy my car when i have the chance too, when i am simply driving around town or doing a long journey, I like to save as much fuel as possible as a sort of challenge to myself. Interesting enough, I have a 2007 R56 Mini but it's an April 2007 car so it doesn't have the start stop system which you even mentioned in the video was introduced in August 2007, but when i get to traffic lights which I know will be a long wait, i just manually do the start stop myself as long as the engine is up to temperture, although i would like to retrofit the system if possible. My thoughts on it is that engineering explained did a video on start stop and 'did the maths' behind it, the fuel needed to start the average engine is the same as idling for 7 seconds so if you're stopped for longer than 7 seconds, start stop is saving fuel each second after that. It is impressive how they did find a way to make the starter engage very quickly and using new battery technology whilst also not causing any extra wear on the engine, system has been around a while and seemingly no problems caused by it.
Other than the cost of a new starter motor when you wear it out
Finally passed my test on 3rd attempt! Your videos have been great help!
That's great news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
I passed thanks to your informative videos along with the helpful comments. Thanks a bunch Richard, you're the man.
That's really great to hear! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
As a mechanic I was never over concerned with fuel consumption, for me I always worried about the starter motor in these kinds of systems.
Lots of variables at play here, including engine size of course - but from ten years of mapping Engine Management systems I can tell you that you need a decent size shot of fuel to get a warm engine to catch reliably, so, unless you are stationary for a LONG time, the difference is pretty negligible in most cases.
You are very right..
I think the on/off start system is the less of all variables.
Great comparison! I'm driving a nearly new Mazda 6, 2.5l, 194HP for two weeks now. I'm using the start stop system, because it works very well in traffic jams in the city, combined with the automatic gear. I'm surprised how much fuel it can be saved with this. Thanks for that video!
Another great video Richard! I find the same thing with my 2011 Mitsubishi Colt, it takes way too long to start the engine and go. I either end up keeping the clutch down to prevent the engine from stopping, or I have to spend time easing the clutch (or forgetting and stalling). I just disable the system altogether.
It is more important to save your engine, than save a tiny amount of fuel. Keep the oil circulating, engine warm and battery charged.
Also saves wear on the starter motor, battery and the alternator too.
I've read that at low RPMs the oil circulation is not that good and that the battery charge at low RPMs is negligible.
If you consider the amount of wear, thus the cost of repairs, on your starter, battery and flywheel, I doubt you'll be happy about saving a few bucks on fuel per tank. And for those saying that Start/Stop systems should be more environment friendly at least (by saving fuel), don't forget that manufacturing and transporting the replacement parts I just mentioned also consumes fuel :)
The kind of people that support these regulations and systems are the sorts that are easily dazzled by shell games. I'm sure that they are also big fans of "free" government services paid for by their tax dollars.
Regarding the difficulty going into 1st gear, from my understanding it's because the synchromesh for 1st gear (you can do research for better understanding or ask me). I've had similar issues on cars but only when the car gets to over 100k miles. I find putting the car quickly into 2nd then 1st help (I hate forcing the gearstick into 1st, I feel like I will break the gearbox 😂), hope that helps a bit. Great videos, keep them coming.
Hello, just to say thank you for your helpful videos , I passed my test today, first time!
That's fantastic news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
I passed today🎉🎉🎉 4 minors
Well done! Drive safely
Well done 👍
That's fantastic news! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Congrats
Well done!
Keep in mind that the starter motor will be used every time during the used of autostart on. Then eventually you will need to replace it. Cost of saving a little gas will cost a lot more replacing the starter motor.
I have a 2.2L Civic diesel and on your point about the stop start working a lot. I was in London on Saturday and the stop/start was kicking in at every stop for a solid 40 mins several times with me barely driving more than about 500 metres. This was both in the daytime and when it was dark with my headlights on. I was and still am very impressed and also surprised. I'm not quite sure how it managed to do it.
That was interesting Richard, I never used to bother about all these things before! Finally I've done the M6!! I got on at 44 and drove it to 19, with a wee stop for lunch at Southwhaite, after watching your video about the trip computer I got my Son to show how to reset mine. I got 61 MPG going but only 56 coming back. A few scary moments, but I've done it!!
That's impressive economy!
I’ve always been curious. Over a long journey, does rev matching decrease fuel economy? Thanks for all these videos!
Not much, it's a hard test to do.
I'd say it depends. On a downhill it'd probably save some gas if you're coasting and then bring the rpm's back up up the hill.
I think the decrease in fuel economy is marginal, each time you're revving up the engine for a brief moment with basically no load
Revving a standard modern 2.0L I4 with a 9kg flywheel from 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm using full throttle takes about 0.5 seconds, and the average fuel flow is 3.0 gallons per hour. That is 3 x 1/7200 or 0.00042 gallons of fuel. That's enough for you to drive 88 feet at 40 mpg. It's not nothing, but if you don't Rev match, the energy for revving up the engine will come from the momentum of the car when the clutch slips, and you'll have to replace that energy with the engine anyway so it really makes no difference at all.
rev matching gear changes is mainly used for things like saving wear and tear on a clutch and gearbox, as for fuel ecconomy, then depends on accelerator usage, ie, out of gear, and hard acceleration and into gear quicker, then you would use more fuel, but gently reving up the engine over a couple of seconds before putting the vehicle into gear, you aren't forcing as much fuel into the engine in a shorter space of time. either way you would use more fuel over a journey than not rev matching, but the wear and tear on components like clutch and gearbox would be much better for the vehicle over say a 10 year period. but the savings over that period are more for clutch and gearbox wear. especially when rev matching is only over a short period of driving time, like from a company base to the motorway then the wear and tear on clutch and gearbox is a huge saving copared to fuel usage, but if rev matching the whole time for town driving, then you would probably just use more fuel, and only saving the clutch wear.
I think the reason it's harder to go into first with the stop-start disabled is because when the engine is idling in neutral, then all the gears in the transmission are spinning at idle speed. When you put it in first, then it has to stop all those gears to match the car which is stopped. But when the engine is stopped, then those gears are already stationary.
There are actually very few "gears" in a transmission. It's actually more drums than anything. And aside from that, when stopped, the only thing spinning transmission wise.... is the torque converter.
@@Charlesbjtown @Charlesbjtown this is a manual transmission though, so no torque converter. When you're stopped, in neutral, with the clutch engaged then, by my understanding, the engine is rotating all the gears on the input shaft at the engine speed, just since there's no gear engaged then none of the synchros and output shaft are spinning, so the car isn't moving. But the transmission still has a bunch of gears moving and carrying some inertia which I imagine you might feel when trying to push it into 1st gear, which requires stopping everything in the transmission, so it lines up with the wheel speed
@@Charlesbjtown in an automatic transmission you would be right though, you keep it in drive when stopped and let the torque converter slip to make up for the difference in speed between engine and transmission, rather than neutral with both transmission and engine moving at same speed due to clutch being engaged
Thank you very much your content is so useful, thanks to you i learned to control clutch and gas in uphills and to change smoothly after 2 fail exams y passed yesterday. It was hard to pass.
That's great to hear! Thank you for watching and congratulations on passing!
Thank you for this video, very informative the bits of information you share throughout the video.
Interestingly the first stop start system was developed all the way back in 1974 by Toyota. My car does have stop start but I nearly always turn it off, it's a relatively limited run engine. I want to keep the car up to full operating temperature and it's very difficult to get it there as the stop start kicks in well before it's reached proper temperature, so it's just fighting the stop start to keep the temperature.
Why do you think under conditions that your oil stays low heat these days it's even needed to have hot oil?
I remember stop-start on a VW Polo back in 1981 (Mk 2 version Formel E model) and thought that was the first time it was used but you are a few years ahead of that.
@@grolfe3210 I had a mk 2 golf c formel e in 1984 that also had the stop start system.
The difference is way bigger than I would have expected, yet not so far off from each other that there's a clear enough difference to ascribe fully to the stop/start feature. Also, a 10-mile survey period is very short and likely magnifies any variation that could occur with road and traffic conditions. A more rigorous approach might be to flip a coin before any given trip and let that coin toss decide whether or not to use stop/start. Then record distance, weather and traffic conditions average speed, number of full stops, etc. for a long period, such as a month or two. Then all that data can feed into a proper analysis of variation to show just how much impact such a system has.
yet, it assumes it doesn't need heating or cooling. Also the car is very hungry. Usually for 185HP you need a turbine even for 2 liter engine.
Not so far off????
More than 10% difference is so far off.
In fact if urban driving is what you do most, 10% less emissions and carbon burning is worth it, even if starter wear and more expensive battery eat up all the fuel cost savings.
11% is a lot. I would have thought 2~3% at most, taking it as an appreciation for a cleaner environment. Can't believe that there is some economical gain in it.
@@bulentkulkuloglu what I mean is one test on this short of a drive is not enough to make a statistically valid claim. If the difference is 10% that is definitely enough to be worthwhile but this data set does not convince me that the difference truly is 10%.
enjoyed your very useful fuel consumption video and your efficient driving habits, i own a 2018 chevrolet cruze, 1.4 litre turbo here in Pa. U. S.A. i take very good care of the car, im very fussy with keeping up on everything from maintenance and also spotless , the car just turned 44,000 miles from day one when new, so low mileage for 5 years old, on a trip, turnpike highway routes i get 44 mpg , so a great car on gas, and city driving i average around 33mpg also its an automatic trans and has stop start
Ashley would be proud of the way you fixed the black car leaving the roundabout in the wrong lane.
Engineering Explained has made a video about it, which is pretty compelling - 7 seconds idling equates to 1 start, pretty much.
I personally disable it, except for when I have the feeling I'll be stopped for >20 seconds. Too much stop/starting can't be good, I still feel.
Starters and batteries are significantly beefed up for cars with start-stop system, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. But when the battery dies (as all of them will), replacing it will be more expensive
Stop Start was created for the "feel good" factor rather than any real impact on anything...
@@jasonking1284 Start/Stop was created for fuel economy and environmental impact. Its also more pleasent for the surroundings, its less noisy and the air is less polluted.
And the argument that "Starters are batteries are more expensive" isnt really much of an argument because every single combustion engine produced in 2023 has the start/stop feature and the components required for it, unless youre deciding between a newer car and an older one that might not have start/stop
Interesting video. You could do a video on different fuel types (diesel, E10, E5 etc) and which one is the most efficient.
Yes, the difference between E5 and E10 would be interesting, especially 98E5 vs. 95E10 because 95E5 isn't sold in many European countries
same efficiency per kg of fuel on gasoline e10 and e5 etc
as far as i know the u need more e10 than non ethanol gasoline in liters therefore u get seemingly worse economy, though usually ethanol fuel is cheaper so it comes out to be the exact same cost per km (as long as the car is compatible with those fuel types)
From my experience it depends… Some vehicles consume significantly more fuel so that it equals out the price difference.
On others, the consumption stays the same and you can save quite a bit of money.
Great video.. The channel 'engineering explained' suggested after 7 secs of idling, you are using more than the extra used for start up. Will differ car to car of course.
Tyre tread forms a linear pump. It takes energy to pump the water out from the road surface they're about to occupy, also some water sticks to the tyre and is thrown upwards behind the tyre, sapping energy. Worse at high speeds or when road surface is wetter, but the total amount of water moved is surprisingly large even when the road only seems a bit damp.
I came across your channel while researching becoming an ADI. I’m about to start training with Red after working as a self employed domestic gas heating engineer for the last 25+ years. Great videos, thank you.
Although I've met many instructors who have had a wide range of jobs/professions before becoming instructors, 2 or 3 have surprised me. I would now add self employed domestic gas heating engineer to the list.
Good luck, but it does seem a strange choice, as I would have thought your previous career would have been far more lucrative (and probably less dangerous). Still, money isn't everything, and, personally, having the freedom to change my hours really suits my current situation.
@@pineapplepenumbra Multiple factors have landed me here, chiefly a pair of knackered knees! My industry is moving at break neck speed in the direction heat pumps which I’m completely unconvinced with. I seem as though I’m following in the footsteps of my dad, he was a labourer for a local plumbing firm, after a spell in the fire service he worked for BSM as an instructor before joining the police where he taught cops advanced driving.
@@martynlewis9020 "chiefly a pair of knackered knees!"
That did occur to me, but I didn't want to appear too rude or nosy.
" in the direction heat pumps which I’m completely unconvinced with"
I was dubious about their effectiveness, and recent articles seem to back up our mutual views.
"I seem as though I’m following in the footsteps of my dad"
This often seems to happen.
I would like to be taught by an ex police trainer.
@@martynlewis9020 Years ago I was asked to do an assessment of a bloke whose angle of vision was closing in and who was fighting to get a test with a top examiner. He had a few friends and his local MP on board.
He was also trying to get an IAM assessment, as well.
He had paid for 2 hours, but I initially only charged him for an hour as he turned up in his own car and we only took about an hour.
At the end I told him that he wouldn't pass a test now, without some lessons, but that the mistakes he was making weren't down to his lack of range of vision. He asked me not to put that last part in my assessment.
So I sent the paperwork to him and phoned up 2 or 3 days later to make sure that he had received it and was happy with it. His wife answered and said that he was mostly happy, but wished that I had put the "few minor mistakes" that he had made. Now this I wouldn't have been happy putting, as it would imply that he would easily pass a test in his current state, and I certainly wouldn't want any examiner, let alone a senior examiner, reading that.
I thought that was the end of the matter, but no, he had rewritten my assessment, with the help of his MP's secretary, claiming that I had found him to be an excellent driver (which I hadn't).
We had a few emails back and forth after that, with him getting increasingly angry, accusing me of touting for business (at the time I was busy, and didn't need extra business), and saying that 4 of his friends, all of them with more driving experience than I had had time on the planet (I was in my late 30s, I think) had all found him to be a great driver.
I pointed out that they didn't have relevant experience of assessing his driving, and charged him the other hour.
Finally he got the IAM assessment and sent me a copy of the report, along with more or less and apology, and asking how much I charged for lessons. I never got back to him, but wondered why he asked, as the IAM instructor was an ex police driver trainer, grade 6 instructor (as it was before the Standards Check Test A,B,C grading) with C&G in Accident Reconstruction, qualified in speed trap calibration, etc. In other words, far more qualified than me and someone I would have liked to have gone out with, myself, as one should never stop learning.
The IAM report said the same things I did, only in "police speak".
@@martynlewis9020 I would have loved to have joined the fire service when young, but they had a height restriction and I was just a bit too short. It was a bit daft, as I used to carry a "mate", who was 6'4" without much trouble and thought nothing of running around a football pitch with someone on my back.
Great video! 👍
2p a mile doesn't seem much saving but with 15k annual miles that would amount to £300, if all those miles would be done in the city.
I'd still be worried about engine wearing out faster when it's subjected to many cold starts when it wears the most. 🤔
Cars with the start.stop system from factory has improvements in the engine itself to prevent this type of damage. If you turn.off and turn on an engine that's not equipped with this from factory, you are 100% correct.
You'd only get that kind of savings if you'd do all those miles in similar traffic, with lots of stopped time.
Typically, stop-start doesn't work until the engine is warmed up
@phaa84 What kind of improvements are you talking about?? 🤔 for example, Ford Ka mk2 with or without start stop has the same 1.2 Fiat engine in it, and I am not aware that the ones with start stop would have anything different apart from upgraded starter motor and more expensive battery (AGM or EFB), otherwise engine, oil, filters are all the same.
@Wannes_ yes I said, that you'd have to drive in a city to get that, which many people will. My friend has a 17 plate Kia Sportage and it switches the engine off even when it's cold, but he usually switches the start stop off as it takes longer for his diesel engine to warm up. I'm sure some makes have software preventing system from working on a cold engine. I don't have start stop in my old Focus but still I switch it on if I'm on traffic lights with long waiting times or in heavy traffic, for the sake of the environment as I drive old smoky diesel.
This auto-stop/start thing are amongst the most efficient way to shorten the longevity of the engine in combination with DPF( in which melts the turbo down the line, ) E10( in which makes hoses rot, ) bio fuel( too much bio mass in the fuel system makes wear in new unknown places, ) and EGR( in which is a rebreather in which forces the engine to use the same air more than once. )
Such a negative view. Also, entirely accurate! 🤣
@@squadmeta Negative? As long as science is jeopardized by politics it's important to underline the obvious.
I used to own a Peugeot 2008 automatic, it had a stop start system and it saved me a lot of money for the three years that I owned, this was because it was zero road tax, I just used to turn it off every time that I used the car. It was only a small engine and very under powered but cheap to run.
i experimented with the difference between having the stop/start system on or off in my previous diesel car. I didn't do a specific journey like you have done, but I drive during my work, so I compared days with it on against days with it off. With it on the economy would normally be in the range of 60-70mpg. Obviously there were outlying days but well over 95% would fall within that range. With the system off my economy was usually 45-55mpg, again with occasional exceptions. This does not include days with AC usage or heavy rain, both of which reduce economy to a reasonable extent. Either way, my difference between on and off seems to be greater than yours, which is going to be due to numerous factors, like different car, different driver, different road/conditions, etc., but I think it is unlikely that many people wouldn't experience at least some fuel saving, although on longer journeys out of town the savings are somewhat negligible.
You’ll find it’s a better option NOT to use the stop start function on your car because the cost of a starter motor or an alternator far exceeds the cost of fuel saved but at the end of the day it’s your choice,I’ll stick with switching this feature off. Keep switching the engine off and on is NEVER a good idea but the manufacturers couldn’t give a toss about that once you are paying the repair costs.
Also the engine inner surfaces, lubrication, seals... will be ruined.
I understand cars with stop/start to have a different type of alternator and starter motor and battery that allows the car to stay engaged whilst the engine is off.
You assume the starter motor or alternator aren't designed with frequent starts and stops in mind. They should at least last within the warranty period.
@@vitordelima
Shouldn't lubrication stick to the walls at least for a short time? Stopping for a few minutes shouldn't affect that.
@@2010ngojo I’m not assuming anything,my friend has an Auto-electric business and has traded for over 50 years so I think he knows what he’s talking about and he’s regularly changing alternators on these stop start vehicles once they get 4/5 years old if the owner constantly use’s the system. These components are very expensive and sometimes very difficult to get at so Labour charges are not cheap either. The amount of fuel saved is negligible when compared to these expensive repair costs,also shutting a diesel
29:35 There is something odd about those numbers. In imperial it seems the car consumes less with stop start (it makes sense), but in mpg us and L/100 km it seems the car consumes less without stop start 😅😅. I think without stop start it should be 9.8 l/100km and 23.14 mpg us if the imperial units are correct, right?
in mpg US it says 26.8 vs 24.0, that's less without stop start as expected isn't it? Are you looking at the very end after all 10.5 miles
@@bbaovanc You're looking at the final results, right?. I'm referring at the results at 29:35
@@javiTests oh I see, I assumed that was the wrong timestamp
I'm surprised to see the price comparison in INR too, thank you for including INR.
I was recently staying in Colchester. I've been enough to know my way around, apart from finding the new place we were staying. It was an apartment near Wickes and I found myself on the roundabout where you are at 11:21, but wanting the next exit. I just had to go under the bridge, turn round further on and come back.
not about saving fuel its about cutting emissions probably used more fuel the constant starting
Nice video, interesting and informative thank you.
I had the start/stop coded out on my M140i so it defaults to off at every start.
I hate stop/start but it's just a personal thing, I didn't buy an m140i and tune it to worry about fuel consumption, but I did find your results very interesting so for those who do care, it seems stop/start does save money.
Now, there is an argument to say it wear components more, as the engine does wear more on a start, and it also wear the starter and other components more, so in the long run you might have bigger bills replacing the large worn parts.
Excellent test mate.
On the issue with the 1st gate being hard to get into: With my dad’s old ‘97 f-150, I noticed he would almost always move into 2nd then immediately into 1st all before taking off. When I asked him about it, he replied that it was because sometimes it was hard to get into 1st sometimes and going into 2nd seems to loosen it up quite a bit. Seeing that’s the vehicle I learned to drive manual in, I can confirm that it was true. Now I have a habit I can’t break in my mustang lol.
It is true that moving it into a different gear before first will help. I actually find it easier just to move it slightly into first come out and then push it in again as it's faster and still works.
What I am worried about, without any research, is if the starter is designed for stop start. Normal starters get really hot when starting a car. They also don't have any sort of cooling. If it constantly springing on and off, it could wear the starter pretty fast.
This is why you have an reinforced starter for the cars with this options.
@elenabob oh ok, because I saw a video of a person using a starter motor from a normal car to drive a bicycle. They had an issue where the motor would overheat.
You're completely correct. These auto-stop feature are scams that just make midwits feel good about themselves. Some fools will say that it's fine because the starters are beefier when used with these systems, but they neglect to mention that while the starters might be good for 2 to 3 times as many usages as a standard starter, the actual usage rate of the starter shoots up 10x or more so you're still losing out in the end. The absolute best thing that you can do for the environment is disable this garbage feature. The environmental cost of the extra maintenance is worse than burning a little extra gas.
I haven't been able to absorb all of what you've said, but did you compare the cost of the bigger batteries stop/start systems use vs the fuel they save?
what about the time cost? stop start is slower than taking off with an idling engine - and if you have some mechanical sympathy you should also take off quite gently and give the engine 5-10 seconds to recover oil flow/pressure.
plus the extra wear on starter motors, engine mounts and the big ones, oil dilution and turbo's and their oil feeds should be factored into total cost of the system vs cost of the fuel saved.
time cost? what time cost? nobody is losing any time because of start/stop. the vast majority of situations you can predict when its time to accelerate. youre at a traffic light, 2 cars in front of you. light goes green, you need to wait for the cars in front to accelerate first, by the time its your turn to accelerate, there is no time difference.
even if youre first at a traffic light, i cannot imagine a half a second difference to have any time impact at all.
for some reason there is a lot of pessimism about start/stop and a lot of half knowledge without much evidence backing arguments like yours. maybe its the fact that you have a little less control over the car is what scares people and try to form a narrative and fill in arguments that may be convenient.
its just like he said, there arent millions of engines dying because of start/stop, i cant find any major institution that ever officially confirmed that start/stop in any way shape or form hurts the engine compared to not using the feature. the cars and components are DESIGNED with this feature in mind, its not like they put this feature into every car with no thought, the cars with this feature were designed with start/stop in mind.
thankfully this discussion will die as electric cars take over and its not really a topic with electric cars.
@@Xzibitfreek ok. I guess I’ll take my 23 years in the mechanical industry, coupled with 10yr arms experience as an owner and repairer of cars with stop/start systems and bow down to your condescending rant?
I can’t make anyone change an opinion, but I will offer points for people to consider.
The battery issue alone is very real for many owners - except those who only keep cars for the first 1-3yrs of the car’s life.
Same for every other item I raised.
Like every car, not all vehicles will suffer the same issues.
Time cost was mentioned in my reply. You have to drive quite gently for the first few seconds after the engine restarts. Plus it is not 1/2 a second delay in response for Toyota, Ford, Mazda, VW systems vs not using stop/stop start - it is more. PLUS the need to then drive slow.
I lived in Colchester from ‘79 until ‘02 - the area around St. Botolphs and Balkerne Hill still look the same!
Nice video . Should do more like this
I do not think it will save enough to keep replacing the starter
The far more important questions is what damage or accelerated wear does the stop start system cause? And does that replacement part defeat the fuel economy savings. Hint yes and yes.
9:05 Personally I never had any issue with the speed of start and stop. When I know that I have to react quickly I stay in 1st gear and don't engage it. When I can take my time and anticipate, I use it and then press the clutch a few seconds in advance.
But I always take this approach when driving, I always like to keep good security distance and anticipate things because it allows me to use more engine brake for example.
I have a bmw 1 series (120i) from 2018, the whipers are exactly as you had described them in your mazda, either they whipe a lot, or a little, even with the sensitivity adjustment, they are terrible. The start/stop system is similar to your Seat Leon, if you try to start fast, it feels like the engine can't handle the effort, it never stole, but it struggles like if it was going to stole. I think this might happen because they are turbocharged petrol engines, so when you start that fast, you have to let the turbo spin so it has power, don't know surely, but it might be that. Btw, nice video as always, cheers mate!
It’s not meant to save fuel, it’s meant to lower emissions.
Saving fuel means lower emissions. Lower emissions mean using less fuel. Crazy how that works right?
The start-stop system isn't meant to save gas. The system is designed to reduce emissions.
Thank you for doing this video, the results are very interesting. Given heavy traffic and many stops on the journey I can see how the engine being off saves fuel. It would be interesting to know just how many times the engine shut off and restarted on the trip. With the system turned off on a trip to and from anywhere, the battery would only have to start the car twice, as would the starter motor. With the system turned on that figure in heavy stop and go traffic could be dozens of times over. The battery could end up depleted to the point it would not have enough charge in it to start the car. Ordinarily the battery requires the engine to be running in order to recharge the battery back up to full for the next time you want to start the car, however if it constantly shuts off the engine that could be a big problem. That doesn't take into account the wear and tear on the starter motor.
If you rub the end of the stalk it should do one round of the wipers. It must be some touch sensitive thingy. Worked on my 2016 mazda 3, was so excited when I found out lmao
No but they destroy engines
real
No, I'm in charge with tuning and sw. The only thing that is different is that you will have a reinforced started to deal with so many stop and starts. In addition to that, you usually have a package that is called energy smart management with a slightly different battery that will also retrieve some energy while braking.
I work for one of German car makers, and I asked about this my colleagues engineers. They say it saves about 0.5l per 100km. The starter motor wear is not an issue, because when the system was introduced, the starter motor design was changed specifically for this reason, but most of all starter shouldn't be used much at all. Engine is stopped in a very precise point, so there's a cylinder with piston at position of full compression and fuel mist in, so just spark from the spark plug will start the engine. The fuel mist will settle over time, so this state can be kept only for limited time (~1 minute) but that is enough to handle a lot of the engine stops.
Personally I appreciate the engineering, but I just find the feature annoying. Also, just so we're clear, I don't speak for the company.
a good video . there is few buts ... the extra wear and tear on the starter motor over its life , every time the engine turns off the oil pump stops causing extra wear during restarting
There is some argument for extra wear on a cold engine when first started as the oil would have had all night to run down to the sump. But with an engine that has just been running, all the oiled parts will already be covered in oil which will not instantly disappear if the engine stops for 30 seconds.
I tend to drive high mileage cars and have never had any problems with a starter motor giving up on me with stop start on them.
Please do another testing with different socks color combo - just to be sure results are ok :)) Love your work!
That issue with 1st gear when the engine is on happens on my car too, but not all the time, is weird lol sometimes is super smooth and easy and other times is hard, my car is older but still, weird lol, MODEL: Nissan Almera N16 1.5 dCi from 2004. Anyhow, great video!
I have a US 2016 Miata (ND1), so older engine version, 1st transmission revision, & traditional flywheel. I've never noticed 1st gear being difficult to engage. The clutch does get a bit syrupy when the temperatures get below freezing.
I do wish we had the i-ELOOP system over here. My previous home was in an area with plenty of roundabouts with light/medium traffic, so I wouldn't get much use out of it there. My new home is in a much more traffic light filled area. My fuel economy can be downright dismal on short trips. Of course, since the start-stop system doesn't start working until the engine is warm, I'd miss a lot of the benefits even here. For reference, I have a 2.6 mile round trip to the local coffee shop (not safely walkable either, yay America...). There's only 1 traffic light on the route, plus a stop to pull onto the road from my neighborhood. Yet, I still often get less than 20mpg US (24mpg Imperial) for that short trip. If I could take advantage of start-stop, I'm sure that would improve significantly. Of course, it sounds like that drive would rarely benefit, as the engine isn't fully up to temperature until halfway home most days. I'd estimate that I spend a good 10% to 20% of my driving time around town just sitting at lights & waiting. The fuel savings for me would be significant.
Note, my fuel economy is going to be worse than typical for my car. It is completely stock, but I run 225-45/17, RT600 (200TW) tires on it. My distance & fuel economy estimates are technically 2.9% low to begin with. The 200TW tires also have higher rolling resistance than the factory S001 tires did. I suspect I lose close to 1mpg from that. I can't accurately test it now, as I only have said 200TW tires & WS90 winter tires now, neither of which is comparable to factory tires. I do track my fuel economy long term, but I've moved twice since buying the car, and driving conditions vary from interstate trips to autocross days. As a result, any long term trends are difficult to isolate. I suspect tire compound loses me another 1-2% at minimum. The rest of the difference is totally a result of my driving habits. It's technically my daily, but I still bought the Miata to have fun driving. I spend a lot of time moving constant speed in 6th gear, but I do like to accelerate hard when starting or coming out of a slow corner.
You mentioned the wipers. It sounds like they're designed similarly to in my mum's Clio. You tell them to wipe when there's so much rain on the window, and they try to judge when that is. In my Fiesta, you simply select the time between wipes, so when there is too much rain on the window, they wipe again.
I have a 2016 Golf 1.4 which I believe is basically the same car as your Seat learner car (just re-badged with slight alterations) and I agree on the stop-start comment.
It takes a good 2-3 seconds for the engine to properly kick into life when you let the start-stop system start the engine, if you move away too quick you can stall and it feels like the engine is partially asleep or something. I've driven quite a few cars and even vans with start-stop and never experienced anything like how bad it was with the 1.4 VW Engine
Regarding a difficult first gear, one option I've heard of, is to go into a different gear beforehand - it may be that the cogs get 'aligned' in a way that means they don't mesh correctly, and going into another gear slightly adjusts them so they can mesh.
That does work, it also helps if I push it forwards into first a little bit come back out and then try a gain. I usually do it this way because it's faster than selecting a different gear.
Great video.
Are you planning on testing the power of your MX-5 soon?
26:55 Push the clutch, wait a seond (as opposed to immediately miving the shift lever), then put it in first. That was the sequence that resulted in easy shift into 1st. If this is true and consistent, and everything you have described suggests that it will be, this is the issue with the syncro not keeping up with the clutch disk, transmission shaft, and gears inertia. Easy solution to try is mixing about a qarter if the transmission fluid with syncromesh.
Very informative. Thank you.
Really cool, i usually just turn the engine off in known wait places. But i dont have the SS or the regen capacitor.
They say that 7 seconds is the turn around for standard ICE vehicles. But with this mx5's system you could get more profit.
Let's say you could modulate regen braking to a degree where it's generating enough in braking to add a boost in accelerating.
And like with the miata, use a capacitor bank to save weight.
Maybe eventually we could be able to recapture like 70%, that'd be a dream.
Thanks for the tip. I’ll disable mine now.
I have a scooter with this feature, i dont do enough stop and go traffic for it to ever make a difference in terms of fuel savings. However i can see it being handy if you are stuck in traffic, specifically to stop the little bugger from overheating(its aircooled).
The clutch thing is exactly same as mine in my 2008 subaru impreza wrx. The owners manual says it's to help prevent being in 1st gear when car thinks you are rolling and should be in 2nd. Which is fine should only be going to 1st when fully stopped anyway, but yeah sometimes it's a bit stiff. I normally just leave it neutral, release clutch, then apply more brake then it's smooth and not stiff next attempt. Bottom line, using more brake seems to tell car you have indeed stopped and will need 1st gear.
In regards to first gear ⚙️
I have the same problem in My subaru sometimes.
I've found that putting it into second gear first if it won't go into first, works well. Cheers
Canada when talking gallons use the US however the standard measurement we use is kms per L. We seldom use anything but the metric system other then lbs for shipping and sometimes inches and feet in construction and some times yards if you own use firearms.
The bulk of your reduction in fuel efficiency in wet conditions has to do with the reduced coefficient of traction on the drive wheel and the road.
I drive Merc Sprinter vans for work. They have robo automatic transmission. Stop start seems to make no difference in normal use but it does cut fuel use in very slow traffic queues (lines). The most annoying feature is the shifter going Park (First and Reverse gears engaged), Reverse, Neutral, Drive. When I park on a hill, I always use hand brake before going into Park. It's not possible to select neutral when not moving. However, when parked on a hill, the handbrake always creeps a little. This loads loads up the gearbox creating a horrible bang when you select Reverse or Drive. It's a serious cock up by Mercedes, because they are glued to the gear shifter setup that applied to torque converter transmissions.
Right nightmare stop start systems are. Stop at lights, car turns off. Stop at a roundabout, car turns off. Right faff on. It's safer to just use the break and keep the car ready to go so you can shoot off when needed, especially at roundabouts
I have a 2006 Citroën C3R stop start. . It has the working software rear was missing from the original cars. It stops the engine with one cylinder 10% before TDC. then, when starting increases the mixture in that cylinder . It is silent and you can't feel it. The engine has to meet 21 requirements before stop starting is allowed. It uses the stop/start alternator to load the engine when cold to speed warming up. This occurs very quickly. It also uses loading the engine as initially slowing or maintaining speed downhill.
With dual clutch automatics the stop/start function is there to save the gear clutch release bearings. If you stay in drive when stopped then one of the gears, most likely first or possibly second, is pre-selected but not engaged with the result that the corresponding clutch release bearings is in use. Stopping the engine saves wear. Another approach is to put such cars into neutral when stopped, for example at traffic lights. The gearbox is a lot more expensive to replace than a starter motor and using neutral avoids even having to do that. Also kinder to the battery although in stop-start fitted vehicles the batteries are designed for the extra work. I mostly use neutral and my last battery lasted eleven years. Cost a bit to replace after that though! Starter is fine. Thankfully.
At are Ford dealer we love start stop feature. Keeps us in plenty of very profitable work replacing starters.
Great effort and a lot of interesting information shared along the video. You would need to collect more data and repeat the test for at least a month on each setting. Things like rain, temperature, gear shifts, traffic or even a random truck parked on a side of the road could change the results. I am still half way through the video, thought.
30:04: It's actually due to energy dissipated for the wheels to throw water away so they can touch the road. Throwing water (or shifting water) isn't free.
You mentioned first gear being hard to get in. I think it’s by design, it lets you know it’s the first gear you’re getting into. It was the very same on my 2004 WRX, first gear was hard to get into if the car was moving. Kind of a “are you sure this is what you want to do?” 😀
Fun fact: Colchester still has a railway station in the city centre called Colchester Town despite it now being a city!
Colchester hasn't been a City for very long.
thank you for adding rupee conversion for kpl!