Hey, thank you so much. It's been a while since I've given this talk. It would be nice to speak to another traditional AA group again. I have missed that since COVID. Thanks so much for listening and taking the time to comment. John
Reason Rally recovery is so important now that we need to truly do what it says and maintain our sobriety and help the alcoholic who still suffers.. so you are right, believers and nonbelievers need to cooperate
@@karlwright6431 alcoholism is a short word for a disease model based off of some kind of religious principles. However if you want a new dad that's where you should go. There's no telling how faith will lead you to truth. But hey. Let's keep spinning our wheels til they get out of the mud.
Acceptance that we can not get sober alone is what was needed to get and stay sober....AA is not allied w any religion...the concept of God as we understand Him does mean the traditional concept of God
as you understand means = As YOU Understand. Not how anyone else understands. It can be the traditional concept, could be an abstract concept, could be whatever you want it to be. Don't ever let anyone tell you it is anything SPECIFIC. You do You and let Marie do Marie. Don't let your mind weigh too much on the words in a traditional sense or anyone else's interpretation.
@@leehammett9196 it can be made as ambiguous as one likes in it's attempt to distance itself from a particular religion, but it is quite clear that the foundation of it's entirety ws not meant to include door knobs, family pets, or long walks on the beach - as a higher power.
That emotion of that acceptance might be true for some people who get sober, but let's be quite clear about one thing. There are vast swaths of population that get sober for life without even considering one element of a 12 step program. And there are so many people that 12 step programs do not work. I believe the # 1 thing turning people away is the god component, regardless of how it is phrased. The world is changing, it's considerably different than it was at the time this literary piece and program were assembled. Recovery is moving ahead for so many people that recognize that long term sobriety has nothing to do with having a higher power.
AA is not interested, at any level, in making meaningful changes to improve outcomes. Secular AA adds extra layers of mental gymnastics to repackage the steps as a “solution.” Bill Wilson himself said the reason he chose 12 steps was, “if 12 is good enough for the guy from Galilee (aka Jesus Christ) it’s good enough for me (bill w).” There are speeches by bill w on TH-cam where you can hear this directly from bill w. Piling on a sin management program (steps 2-11) to a person struggling to get and stay sober is inhumane. As a person with long term sobriety, I fully respect how difficult it is to achieve. +\- 2M ppl in AA since the late 80’s. Simple math says there is not even nominal retention rate. AA literature says membership is 89% white, and significant majority male. This should concern anyone in AA with compassion for struggling drinkers. Instead, AA is lost in tradition and dogma, madly resisting the most reasonable changes. 72% gross profit on all literature sales per box 459, F14 document published by AAWS. Greg Tobin, AA president/GM from 2015-21, made $315k/yr while working an average of 17.5 hrs/wk per AAWS IRS filings of form 990 (easily searchable). Tobins background was editor of a biweekly magazine for the archdiocese of Newark. As PR man for the archdiocese of Newark his tenure coincided with revelations of rampant child sex abuse in the district, one of the worst in all of Catholicism. Interestingly, AA is historically religious and current leadership is the nastiest type of catholic imaginable. Many courts have declared AA religious. As recently as last year a federal court ordered United Airlines to pay $305k to a pilot that was sentenced to AA in spite of his objecting on religious grounds. The pilot won, as have several others. AA’s primary purpose is to maximize profits (72% on literature) and convince courts/rehabs/medical institutions to keep the pipeline flowing with new literature customers. AA is a churn machine, and that is exactly what leadership is protecting. As one member said years ago, “I’ve only been to one rehab, but I’ve been to it 6 times,” then he’d hold up his big book and say “all I got to show for it was this $65k book.”
Lol i was speaking at an open AA meeting with a lot of people in the room moving around and making noise. I should have adjusted the mic so it wouldn’t be that sensitive, but this was a few years ago and I didn’t have the skills or equipment that I do today.
Thanks, I really enjoyed your talk. It's encouraging to hear from someone who successfully works the steps in a secular way.
Hey, thank you so much. It's been a while since I've given this talk. It would be nice to speak to another traditional AA group again. I have missed that since COVID. Thanks so much for listening and taking the time to comment.
John
How do you work the steps with no God?
It's completely OK to be an atheist in AA. Thanks for doing this great talk.
You make me feel so much more normal. Thanks.
You are not alone. Remember you have friends all over the world who have seen the man behind the curtain and know there is no wizard of god.
Why does AA still speak of our CREATOR and GOD so frequently in the readings the 12 steps while claiming not to be a religious program? 😖
Reason Rally
recovery is so important now that we need to truly do what it says and maintain our sobriety and help the alcoholic who still suffers.. so you are right, believers and nonbelievers need to cooperate
@@jaybrumbaugh777 it is against the law to descriminate against others based on their personal freedom to not believe in any God.
@@karlwright6431 alcoholism is a short word for a disease model based off of some kind of religious principles. However if you want a new dad that's where you should go. There's no telling how faith will lead you to truth. But hey. Let's keep spinning our wheels til they get out of the mud.
can be more evangelical that Catholic Church or the thousands of breakaway christian groups. For some people this must be offputting
Because it's a cult, not a recovery program.
Acceptance that we can not get sober alone is what was needed to get and stay sober....AA is not allied w any religion...the concept of God as we understand Him does mean the traditional concept of God
as you understand means = As YOU Understand. Not how anyone else understands. It can be the traditional concept, could be an abstract concept, could be whatever you want it to be. Don't ever let anyone tell you it is anything SPECIFIC. You do You and let Marie do Marie. Don't let your mind weigh too much on the words in a traditional sense or anyone else's interpretation.
@@leehammett9196 it can be made as ambiguous as one likes in it's attempt to distance itself from a particular religion, but it is quite clear that the foundation of it's entirety ws not meant to include door knobs, family pets, or long walks on the beach - as a higher power.
That emotion of that acceptance might be true for some people who get sober, but let's be quite clear about one thing. There are vast swaths of population that get sober for life without even considering one element of a 12 step program. And there are so many people that 12 step programs do not work. I believe the # 1 thing turning people away is the god component, regardless of how it is phrased. The world is changing, it's considerably different than it was at the time this literary piece and program were assembled. Recovery is moving ahead for so many people that recognize that long term sobriety has nothing to do with having a higher power.
AA is not interested, at any level, in making meaningful changes to improve outcomes. Secular AA adds extra layers of mental gymnastics to repackage the steps as a “solution.” Bill Wilson himself said the reason he chose 12 steps was, “if 12 is good enough for the guy from Galilee (aka Jesus Christ) it’s good enough for me (bill w).” There are speeches by bill w on TH-cam where you can hear this directly from bill w. Piling on a sin management program (steps 2-11) to a person struggling to get and stay sober is inhumane. As a person with long term sobriety, I fully respect how difficult it is to achieve. +\- 2M ppl in AA since the late 80’s. Simple math says there is not even nominal retention rate. AA literature says membership is 89% white, and significant majority male. This should concern anyone in AA with compassion for struggling drinkers. Instead, AA is lost in tradition and dogma, madly resisting the most reasonable changes. 72% gross profit on all literature sales per box 459, F14 document published by AAWS. Greg Tobin, AA president/GM from 2015-21, made $315k/yr while working an average of 17.5 hrs/wk per AAWS IRS filings of form 990 (easily searchable). Tobins background was editor of a biweekly magazine for the archdiocese of Newark. As PR man for the archdiocese of Newark his tenure coincided with revelations of rampant child sex abuse in the district, one of the worst in all of Catholicism. Interestingly, AA is historically religious and current leadership is the nastiest type of catholic imaginable. Many courts have declared AA religious. As recently as last year a federal court ordered United Airlines to pay $305k to a pilot that was sentenced to AA in spite of his objecting on religious grounds. The pilot won, as have several others. AA’s primary purpose is to maximize profits (72% on literature) and convince courts/rehabs/medical institutions to keep the pipeline flowing with new literature customers. AA is a churn machine, and that is exactly what leadership is protecting. As one member said years ago, “I’ve only been to one rehab, but I’ve been to it 6 times,” then he’d hold up his big book and say “all I got to show for it was this $65k book.”
Nice talk but all the banging and clanging was really annoying- as if you were speaking in banquet dishwashers area.
Lol i was speaking at an open AA meeting with a lot of people in the room moving around and making noise. I should have adjusted the mic so it wouldn’t be that sensitive, but this was a few years ago and I didn’t have the skills or equipment that I do today.