Why I crank up the heat to 25°C in Chinese cars
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ม.ค. 2024
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Seems the Chinese car sets the heater temp to exactly what you specify, but of course the cabin will never reach that temp. Instead tesla takes your set temperature as the target cabin temp, and the heater will crank until reaching it
This is what happens when the given parameters are not included in the control.
PID- vs P- Controller
I wonder if it’s the same for cooling.
Wow, makes a lot of sense!
Where is the temp sensor located?
I can say after owning a PTC based Model 3 and Heat pump Model Y a few things.
The Model 3 would be get hot quick. It was also much more noticeable when auto would change the air flow for recirculation or more for dash /windows. I would likely guess it was the PTC turning off to cool for a few minutes. In the Model Y it is much less a temperature change but still happens since the heat pump has more steady temperatures than a resistive heater.
I am one that now leaves the seat on auto but often ran on 1 bacon for most of a drive prior to being able to have it auto adjust. I keep my car to 73 F (22.8 C) as that seems to be enough to keep heat going after warming to 75 F (23.9 C) for 15 mins. Sometimes leave it at higher temp on below freezing days and 80 F to warm up when I'm done with 10-20 F (-12 to -6 C).
I hate the cold. I don't care if it eats another 5 miles of range. I used to worry. I have noticed the Y side window fogging up at mirror. Maybe shouldn't breathe so heavy too. 😅
Probably helps goose the range and efficiency numbers as well if it tries to get you not to heat the cabin has much.
Good choices. Drive like you own it. Hyper-miling and trying to stretch charge is not a real-world testing standard. Set temperature to comfort in all cars regardless of what the gauge "says" and use speed and acceleration as normal driving habits for most honest comparisons. Use GPS speed instead of car gauges, as well. My car speedometer claims almost 10% faster than I'm really going. Stupid. Trust gps for speed and distance and independent thermometer for cabin temp. And charging station for how much energy used. Never trust what the car mfr systems say.
Thermal Camera measurements will vary widely depending on the surface, texture, finish and color of the surafce you are measuring because of chagning emissivity on different materials. Its a good visual indicator but never accurate. Old school contact based thermometers is the best in this case.
Congratulations Bjorn. You made it through the cold like a real Kanuck 🇨🇦
It’s 9c outside today, already feels like summer 🥵
Also be related to level of sound deadening in car & insulation in roof to help maintain temperature in car.
I agree. Comfort first and the consumption comes in second hand.
Thank you, useful data
Canadian here, I'd love some -15°C this year to get some decent snow made on my ski hills. 0 with a 'feels like' of -2 just isn't cutting it...
My MG4 Trophy is the same, I ran my MX5 at 19C all year round, the MG needs to be at 24-25 for the same comfort level. Here in the Uk my car reports the inside temp as 9C despite it being 3C outside and the car has not moved for 3 days.
sounds like the chinese cheaped out on accurate inside temp sensors lol
@@VxO4fame I think it’s more likely a calibration or software error, given the number of ‘features’ in the software I suspect the latter.
Multiple refreshes/scans of the car with the app will bring the recorded internal temperature down to real values - for some reason the sensor only updates the reading when scanned, and appears to have an integral function so ramps the value towards real rather than step it to the real value. 🤷♂
well what do you expected when you bought chinese car - two of them.
you just traded your dignity on imported car from communist country with labor camps where state controls everything..although, I have to say that UK is getting better at that as well ;)
@@RandomTheories firstly the MX5 was made in Japan, secondly the West’s addiction to cheap clothes, food, energy and consumer goods means we have given away our manufacturing base to nations with poor human rights, farming to those who don’t care what pesticides they use and brands sold off to the highest bidder. Even goods made at home are just assembled from parts manufactured abroad.
In my IONIQ electric 38kWh I feel really comfort around 22°C and put the seat heater on level 1.
It's the perfect way to drive efficiently and have a nice warm temperature, so I can drive without a jacket and stuff.
On the first driving km I also put the heated steering wheel on.
👍
21-22 in my 38kWh Ioniq too, perfectly comfortable in winter with this setting.
I usually go for 19C and seat heating in my Ioniq 5. Consumes way less energy but its still comfortable. If I still need it warmer, I go for 21C
I also use 22 °C in my 28 kWh IONIQ. It's the perfect temperature ✌🏽
Even Celsius is fake in China 😅
Thanks, yes helps,and to understand what leather seats advantage and disadvantages when not preheated and you seat on them with light clothes and temperature in the car is actually not really 21 degrees in the winter
In my M3 SR 2022 I used now 19 to 19.5 degrees and this feels warm
Hi, thanks for the great videos, I have an MG4 about 4 months now, and the inside temperature reading was similar to what you experiencing. However, after a software update it become more realistic. Perhaps this specific car still have the old sw.
Hey Bjorn, for sure there are Canadians here - hello from Canada!
I think because of temperature senzor position inside the dash is different in each car model Temp inside the car have a bigger Delta
On my MG4 i set the temp at 23C, seat heater at 2 and steering heat on, and if its real cold like not i set the temp at 24C, works great for me.
I notice the same on my MG5.
The default temperature of the HVAC is 23C, but I crank it up to 25 on some days because it just doesn’t get very warm.
Climate control works fine otherwise, but it seems to incorrectly sense interior temperature.
Yes from Toronto
My gues is that the temperature controller, the PID (proportional, integral, Differential) controller in better cars uses proportional, and integral control algorithms to control temperature. Cheaper units only use proportional control. So when it is really cold it requires more kWs are required to hold at the target (integral looks after this in pid good cars) than in less cold conditions for the same target. The driver essentially adjust the integral issue out by setting a higher target in very cold conditions than in less cold conditions. The car has an offset in the target from the actual achieved temperature. The other factor might be the size of the heater itself, but if you can get the MG4 to warm up the heater is big enough so it has to be a crappy controller. Same occurs in most office aircon systems summer to winter causing continuous confusion, especially when some like it hot and some like cooler.
Interesting conversation! MG 5, 2nd generation in UK when outside temp is +2 to 3 C, I have to set auto cabin heat to 23. to maintain a comfortable feel. Heated seats have only one burn your butt setting, so not good to leave them on - the thermostat needs factory adjustment, ABC, Always Be Cosy ! The house is looking great. Thanks.
Damm good video 👍 Tak Bjørn
Depends on where the temp sensor is in the car and how good its calibration is. Could the sensor be on the heating matrix/element, if so difference in fans, ducting etc might make a difference. With the two sensors you were using it would be good to re-run the test by swapping over the sensors between cars, again because their calibration may differ, certainly would only be within a few degrees on cheap sensors no matter what they state. I think, if I lived in Norway, I'd have the interior stripped and line the inside with insulation, it's good for noise and temp control.
It is the same in my 2018 ZOE. You really have to crank it up to get the desired temperature.
My Polestar 2 quickly becomes pleasantly warm. Even at level 1 of three, the seat heating is sufficient in winter and the steering wheel heating is far too hot for me even at level 1.
There is already confirmed a bug from MG themselves about the climate temperature. It is a fix coming but that takes way too long atm. They confirmed the internal settings shall be adjusted so the temp numbers will match with actual temperature in the vehicle. It is however NOT easy to even get the workshops to give the car all the updates that are out as they only prioritize updates MG has told them to. My mg4 is set to 25 now in winter then i get around 22C in the car wich is alright together with heated seat and wheel.
I’ve noticed in winter, have to set my tesla model y a few degrees warmer than i would normally or I get cold…
Yes very useful because i never live in winter country.
My ZS EV also have the same issue:)
I have 26gr on the hvac.. and its approx 22gr in the car😊
Byd Atto 3 I have to use Hello mode ("HI") all the time in winter time,
Not sooo cold here in Venise-en-Québec, Canada. My Tesla Y does a good job on heating.
In my previous ICE cars (all from VW Group) I would use around 19-20C in Summer and 21 or 22 in Winter. Now in my Enyaq RS Coupe I need 23 or 24 in Winter and 21-22 in Summer, otherwise it gets a bit chilly. Something strange I also noticed though: If I pre-condition the car at 23C (e.g. be ready at 23C at 17h00), it feels much warmer than driving around with the HVAC set to 23C... But OK, just a matter of getting used to it and adapting accordingly.
If the interior of the car is already warm when you leave, you're benefitting from the radiant heat from the surfaces, as opposed to the car absorbing your body heat when cold started.
not only that but quality of seals to keep the warm in. it does not help to put 25 if the car pushes out 25 but it leaks out the air and or cant fill the cabin to actually reach 25. etc etc
My MG4 Trophy is always colder in the front foot wells even with the vents off. I set to 25-26° c winter in the UK and this is comfortable. It’s a known issue and a software patch is (supposedly) coming. I agree comfort is more important and the charge rate is fast enough that its not really worth being frugal with the heating 😊
Supposedly... at new units. OTA is not in their plans. 😞 With R46 the same that with previous versions. Under 24 is cold.
I’ve had other makes that read the temperature at the vents rather than the cabin, I don’t take too much notice just adjust up/down until it feels ok. I’m always nice and comfy all year round and the condensation is kept away in the damp cold UK winter so all works well. My MG5 struggled a bit in hot weather as there was no UV protection in the windows! The 4 is much better 😊
Since owning my Tesla Model Y for a few months, I've noticed I need to set the temperature to 20 deg C to "simulate" a real temperate of about 23 deg C. It's often above 30 deg outside so anything higher than 20 inside the car is too hot. Other cars I've owned setting to 20 deg would be way too cold.
My 22 M3LR gets too hot too, i have to drop it to 20 or 19.5c. When its auto defogging its worse, especially when you don’t need to defog because you just popped into the shop for 10 mins and nothings fogged up.
in MG4 if auto was changed to recirculate does that change it? I noticed where I am the cooling improves. We have Dec 2023 update
How much does the seat heater use, considering it's a resistive heating element?
I have my 2021 Model 3 mostly on 20°C sometimes 19°C.
Which ODB device do you recommend for EV’s?
Not sure that you are effectively measuring the material temperature more than the inside cabin temp. A more accurate measure would need to have the thermometer hang from the ceiling, cause depending our the air dispenser are blowing the armrest can get a more direct air flow
Isn’t any setting fir the AC? Like comfort or economic mode? My BYD Tang has this and if it is on economic mode the air vent temp is much lower compared to comfort mode.
@bjorn can we hope for byd seal review?
Greetings from Calgary, Canada where it is forecast to be -39° on January 12, 2024.
My 2018 VW e-Golf has no trouble warming up as well as an ICE car in these cold temperatures, as it has a heat pump. The big challenges are range, which is about 50% of summer capability.
Last year, we hit -38°C and the car was not happy to run as perhaps the battery was too cold, but at -34° all was well. The VW battery is air-cooled, so after the -38° day I set the car to pre-heat the interior at 4, 6 and 9 am as a way to try to keep the battery a bit warmer. I'll find out what difference that makes in a couple of days...
My MG4 SE SR is 3C out on the gauge: 21C on the dash is 18c in the cabin, 22C dash is 19c in cabin and so on.
I normally have it on 21 or 22C in depth of winter and 24-26C in summer: cabin temperatures therefore 18-19C in winter and 21-23C in summer
At home we have a M3P and a MG4 Luxury. M3P is set at 21. MG4 at 24.
If the heater makes the heat, maybe the fan needs to blow it more into the car? But this could be noisy?
11:31 In winter *for* *comfort*, I always have the seat heater on level 1 and most of the time the steering wheel heater on, while depending on the distance I drive (usually I adjust upwards on longer distances) I set the AC to 18.5, 19.5 and 20.5 °C (not sure why I go for the .5 steps, I just got used to this). I repeat, I do this for comfort reasons, because I get less dizzy / sleepy when the air around my head is cooler. I totally hate to breathe warm air in winter. And I keep on my jacket and stuff, I never did othewise in the car - and I'm driving for almost 40 years now. Only problem is, in my car (Ioniq 28, bought it new in 2018, it's my only car), the steering wheel heater has only on and off, can not be set to a lower setting, so it sometimes gets too warm. But when I really drive the distance, it gets warm enough anyway. Oh and when I step into the car from cold and dry weather, depending on how cold it is of course, I'm used to that anyway, so when I do short trips like 3 km to the supermarket, sometimes I leave AC/heater switched off, but only if the screens don't start fogging. My previous car (2009 Octavia 1.4 TSI DSG; drove it for 173t km) was way less comfortable in winter. It stayed frickin' cold for upto 15 km (when below -10°C outside) and as I had to heat up everything including the steering wheel (till then I wore gloves) from the car's air temperature, I always had to crank it up too much, so first I froze, then I got dizzy, and only on distances above 30km, I could finally adjust to a comfortable level. It had full specs, incl. heated seats, but no steering wheel heater was avaliable for it. Otherwise, for a combustion car of that time and price range, it was a great one.
So, I'd say, when it comes to comfort, people simply are very different. No need to should at "typical EV sterotype".
Anyway, interesting review, this gets rarey addressed 👍
The first generation of TSI engines was infamous for its slow heat buildup in winter. Some cars were later even equipped with PTC heater to solve this issue. Yet the problem was completely solved only in the next generation of these engines made since 2012-2013.
Yes you have Canadians watching Bjorn
It is on purpose, for sure. Just the reason they states is probably BS. Most likely is about cheaping out with sensors and trying to get better range.
I use 17° in my i4 + steering wheel heater. Perfect.
Perhaps the Chinese one it's blowing 21 degrees air while the Tesla it's keeping cabin at 21 degrees
Hi, Canadian here!
To enable a fake camp mode i open window, exit, close door, from window press the internal lock doors button and finally close window
The air flow in the MG hasn't been engineered. They placed the heat-exchange heater in, and didn't care of considering where the heat ended up. Of course, it flows out and the thermostat is giving an erroneous temperature, much higher than reality...
Yeah my BYD is the same.
I have heard that if you get stuck in a stau in winter, it is better to use seat heater and steering wheel heater to save energy. Is that correct?
No
there should be a sensor or some sensors inside the car, which report a temp and that temp should match the temp you set in hvac.
in tesla you should be able to see the sensors in service mode.
maybe the interior sensor in the mg4 ist near to the outlets and thatswhy the car thinks that it already reached the 21 degrees.
You are probably right, see my post.
Tesla does a lot right, AC is one of those things.
Maybe would be interesting to include cupe temperature during range test?
I always use 21°C.
My MG4 only heats when I use onlyfans. Doesn’t heat when climate is on. 😢
Hi Bjorn !
This FLIR seems good?
You recommande?
Is it FLIR one (I phone 12 Pro Max)
350 €?
Get the chinese ir adapters. Flir is frame limited, the Chinese are not. And they are cheaper / have an higher resolution. I upgraded from a flir, never looked back…
I would like to suggest you ad a column for winter and one for summer to your spreadsheets for a Bjorn Bias ranking. How many degrees + or minus the heating or cooling in a vehicle setting to get the cabin to your subjective ideal. Maybe use Tesla Plaid as the reference and pick bias from there... kind of like today's video. Not meant to be scientific but kind of a relative measure. ID cars that need to be set higher or lower. Maybe even your sense of how quickly they get to the desired cabin temp from winter cold or summer hot. A little extra work on your part and something else to talk about for a few minutes in your videos. I'd be interested in those observations and thoughts.
Interesting :)
In the UK, at least, the issue with the MG4 is a complete lack of heat pump. I know some markets get them but it's a garbage heating system that we get. The excuse was it keeps cost down but since you can get the MG4 Xpower for about £30,000 brand new, I'd more than willingly pay another £1000 for a system that more efficiently heats the battery and cabin.
can you share the bid with £30k, please?
Maybe the Chinese cars use a heat pump for cooling, but PTC for heating. That might be another reason why they'd tune a bit cooler
I had to go up 2-3C when moving from a Golf TDI to e-Golf. The e-Golf feels colder.
The range drops quite rapidly as temps go down towards -10C and below due to the high heater consumption. Even if mine is a 2019/2020 with heat pump and everything.
The diesel did have a Webasto aux heater or it would never get up to optimal temp in winter. Forcing it off in -15C would see the coolant drop to 60C or less.
That's one way to get better mileage ratings
If you go to sensors in carscanner and select just one sensor the measurement won't do a ping pong
A seat has a ridiculous energy(heating) inertia(resistance). Because it’s a insulator. Just pointing that out. Because it is not important how warm it is. It is how fast it wants to suck your own 37 degrees out of your body to reach equilibrium. Which is very slow in this case. The important parameters are the air temp. There is very little mass to energize in a car cabin.
I thought the chinese might not take into account outside temp in their climate system. Byd when you set ac to 22degrees gives you 22 degrees airtemp from the vents...
Hey Bjorn, what's your take on older Model S in these days? Models manufactured around 2014-2015 are becoming more affordable, some of them even with free supercharging.
Not Bjorn here but can say: drive units not very reliable, plastic oil pump gear fails quite often and can cause bearings damage. Door handles prone to fail, but you can change them to newer year, sliding roof prone to stuck and leak, screen unit can have older ssd memory, that can fail and it can be costly. Overall they're usable, but you have to remember that they're cheap for a reason
Interesting
My guess is that Chinese cars measure “Air Off” instead of “Air On” temperature. I’m a retired HVACR engineer and have a Smart #1 Brabus, previously a BMW i3s.
Noob question, what do you mean by air on and air off? Chinese 21c is 21c out of vents and Tesla is trying to reach 21c for cabin?
please explaine air on/off!
Yes please
The control is based on where the temp sensor is located ie. before or after the device(s) that is cooling/heating (typically refrigerant coil, hotwater coil, resistive heater). 'Air on' is the air on the to coil pre-treatment (return air temp, room air temp) and 'air off' is air off the coil ie post-treatment (supply air temp) to the air. Controlling temp via post treatment sensor doesn't take into account of the room heating and cooling loads and will set set temperature that the air blows out the vents. Controlling via pre-treatment located temp sensor can modulate the temperature based on the room temp (the temperature that you experience in the cabin).
@@alistererskine7770i guess air on is better though?
Strange. 21 C is 21 C air temp inside the cabin ON AVERAGE. There is no debate possible about that. So I disagree that it is up to the manufacturer to "tune".
19 all the year on my tm3
on my 20 year old diesel audi it's the opposite :P
have it set to 16 degrees and I'm sweating
Bjorn
I set my mg4 to 27,c - always 😊
Yeah, me too. In sunny summer weather about 24°C and in fall and winter 27°C
Maybe a sneaky way for China cars to get more range/lower consumption by heating less than displayed? Or connected to very common high humidity in China?
It might be true, maybe they are not taking into account Heat index
Yeah, BMW i3 at 19C = MG4 at 23C for me.
❤❤❤
in the chinese cars, the thermostats have been orderen on temu 😂
Why tesla has much higher humidity? It probably recycling air more than mg. It might also help reduce consumption for heating.
Nope. The sensor was kept outside for a long time in -20°C. That's why. It had condensation.
Bjorn, have you considered wearing one of those electrically heated gilets when out driving in sub-zero temperatures?
It would keep you toasty-warm without draining energy from the car or the ecoflow.
Seems like the Chinese are blowing in 21 degrees while the other cars are trying to get 21 degrees in the cup. Different way of thinking, later makes more sense.
1:00 just hear the doorsound of that chinese car against the tesla 100k car. This is so ridiculous (ps. i`m a tesla driver :D)
Maybe they don't have winter in China 😶
I think MG has been using Bananas for ⚖️ measurements when testing temperature. Took the banana box test too far.
swap the sensors and measure again, there might be differences between them.
Nope
:) put both sensors in the same place then, in the house@@bjornnyland
Yo what's up
It would be a perfect to do the energy consumption comparison as well, you were close. There currently is a debate on getting stuck in the snow with an EV.
Bjorn does sub-0'C efficiency tests all the time, he has comparisons at low negative single digits up to high negative teens at both 90km/h and 120km/h.
test a smart fortwo electric xD
Would be interesting to compare heat loss from outside. Suspect MG has poor isolation
the price difference between the cars is €100k
Irrelevant
@@bjornnyland "Irrelevant" maybe.. Chinese MG is not made for northern climate, inefficient pump
Yes spend $50K on car and then freeze your ass off to save $1.
Maybe they dont have cold in china ?
You are joking, right? Half of flats in China have heat and no a/c and the other half have a/c and no heat..
@@stevemcgowenI am joking, its a TB joke if you know you know