Plug-In Hybrids Are Not What You Think They Are | Talking Cars with Consumer Reports
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ค. 2024
- We purchased over a dozen of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) for our auto test program at consumer reports, to study deeper and reveal many nuances of the most misunderstood vehicle. This week we share our initial impressions of some of our first interactions with plug-in hybrids and what we have discovered so far. Jake Fisher drafts a complex spreadsheet to help one of our audience members decide between a hybrid and a PHEV. We also answer if there is any correlation between the hybrid battery and the 12-volt battery in hybrid vehicles.
CR PHEV Cost Calculator: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
SHOW NOTES
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Is a Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle Right for You?
www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Electric Cars 101: Answers to All Your EV Questions
www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Electric Cars and Plug-In Hybrids That Qualify for Federal Tax Credits
www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Car Safety Guide
www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Ratings and test results on every car CR purchases and tests: www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Subscribe to Talking Cars on TH-cam: www.youtube.com/@consumerrepo...
Have a question for our experts? Leave a comment on this episode, or reach out to us directly! Send us a text at TalkingCars@icloud.com to send a photo, video, or text directly to the Talking Cars team!
00:00 - Introduction
00:15 - Why (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) PHEVs?
04:28 - What are plug-in hybrids?
07:28 - Who are PHEVs for?
12:10 - Plug-ins are a version of gas powered vehicles
13:39 - Our experience with 2023 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe (PHEV)
16:52 - Driving the 2023 Ford Escape PHEV
20:08 - 2023 Mazda CX90 PHEV
21:04 - PHEVs are not for everyone
26:08 - Question #1: Which plug-in hybrid should I buy?
31:22 - Question #2: Will a 12-volt trickle charger also keep the hybrid battery topped off?
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Driving a PHEV isn’t as complicated as CR wants people to believe. We own a gen 2 Volt and a RAV4 Prime. Never any range anxiety and mostly EV driving. These vehicles are amazing. Chevy should have kept the Volt alive.
Hybrids are CRAPPY , its a fact.
I think you got 2 of the best PHEV's. Some don't disable the gas engine ever and will kick on the engine if you ask for more than a certain amount of throttle. Also some have laughably short ranges - I know someone with an X3 PHEV and it gets 12 miles of EV range. Volt and RAV4 are some of the best PHEVs with long ranges and strong EV defaults.
Glad Toyota bumped the range on their Prius Prime, filling in the gap left by the Volt.
I agree with @skcbiol. Former Gen 1 Chevy Volt owner here. Even with the shorter EV range, I drove all electric 95% of the time. Amazing vehicle.
If you are trying to minimize your use of gas and you don't want to hunt down chargers on long trips, it can be difficult to predict whether a PHEV or regular hybrid will be more efficient for your own likely driving. For me and my PHEV it has been the opposite of what they tell you -- yes my EV range is down in the winter, but I do fewer long trips, so the PHEV beats the hybrid in the winter while the hybrid beats the PHEV in the summer. Overall, so far, it has been a toss up.
You make it sound very complicated and confusing. It's a hybrid with a bigger battery that you can charge by plugging it in. We plug ours into a regular outlet on our garage. With the amount of driving we do, we seldom burn any gas. When we take a long trip, we treat it as a hybrid. And when you talk about waste, think about the giant batteries in most EVs with capacity that's never used. That's a lot of weight to carry around, a lot of resources wasted.
Average just over 100 mpg in 7000 miles. On a trip to Quebec, just over 1000 miles, 56 mpg driving as a hybrid. No range anxiety. No switching back and forth as you describe. Leave it in EV mode. When it runs out of charge, it automatically switches to hybrid mode. Just leave it alone and drive it.
Hybrids have more parts that can potentially go bad vs an all electricitic vehicle. Evs have like 70% less moving parts.
Complexity here isn't the complexity of use, but rather the mechanical complexity of the drive train.
@@jmatt98 Have a 2004 Toyota Prius and 2019 Kia Niro. Prius has 390,000 miles and finally broke last year. A rusted out brake line. Other than that just routine fluid changes. The 2019 Kia has had zero problems at 70,000 miles. Not seeing any real problems at all and awesome mileage with both.
@@jmatt98 Yeah but electrics have that one big part.
If I am reading the spreadsheet correctly, there was a fundamental error (which may affect the choices) in that electricity in Saskatchewan is C$0.15¢/KWhr. Jake has converted this to US$20.25¢/KWHr, which is the "wrong" way. That is, 15¢ Canadian is more like US11¢/KWhr . Then this error is repeated with the gas price calculation - a litre of gas in SK is is about C$1.80. That's ~US$1.32. There are about 3.8L in a US gallon, so the price per US gallon of gas in Sask is about US$5.28 - nowhere near what Jake calculated and further muddying the waters. It may be that the same mistake applied to both factors evens out, but I'd want to rerun the numbers. Hopefully someone at CR will notice
It's an easy mistake to make (Google will try and do it wrong for you) but obvious to any Canadian viewer (the CDN$ is typically 75% of the US$ in value). While gas is expensive in Canada (compared to the USA) electricity tends to be less expensive (obviously varies by location). And BTW Mike - it is pronounced Re-JEYE-na :-)
They are not mudding the water, just pouring oil into it.
Hopefully they will correct those figures in the next exciting episode but don't hold your breath waiting.
Amazing what bias will cause to happen, isn't it?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught this. The first error I noted is when he said Canadians are paying nearly $9 per gallon of gas. Since I know there are roughly 3.79 liters per gallon, I knew that even if gas was $2 per liter, there's no way that equals $9/gallon, did the quick math and realized his numbers were off. When you're with your buddy or just posting on line like we are, who cares if you're wrong. If you're posting an informative video that many will see and you're making decisions based on those numbers, you better check and recheck your numbers. I stopped watching after I caught their mistake, because I realized everything after is based on a mistake and what's the point?
I agree. When I heard his errors it greatly reduced my confidence in anything else he said. If you can't get simple arithmetic right how wrong will you be on anything complex.
CR makes this seem complicated. It's actually simple. I've had a 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime PHEV for more than two years now. I love it. I use electric in town. I buy gasoline when I go out of town. PHEVs are for everyone.
It sounds to me like, when it comes to PHEV's, there's Toyota and then there's everyone else.
I love my 2023 Hyundai Santa Fe PHEV!
@@justingroen3235IDK - I have a BMW 330E and it's brilliant.
But how much over sticker!? How many gallons of gas would that have been
Yeah have a RAV4 Prime also. EV on town / city roads. HV on the highway. Flick of the switch, enough said.
how to make something quite simple sound complicated and draging it out for 35 minutes
35min of absolute ignorance.
@@geofflecren8827 ...and awkward jokes and laughter
Exactly
True for you talking rubbish
Glad I'm not alone in thinking this. Plug-in hybrid EVs should just be EVs which kick in an ICE generator to supply the juice when the battery runs low. If they have two separate drivetrains and an ICE *motor,* then whether you can plug them in or not, I think they're still just regular hybrids.
Bought a RAV4 Prime last year. Thought about going full EV, but didn't feel the infrastructure is quite there yet to support them everywhere. It has been a great vehicle so far. (And it is quick!)
Driving it in the city for daily local commutes or just tooling around town, I use practically no gas. As long as my daily usage is under ~ 45 miles. Which is 98% of the time.
But then my family enjoys (very) long road trips and it gives me piece of mind that I can just operate it as a regular Hybrid on those trips. Pulling over at Any gas station, Anywhere and be fully fueled in less than 5 minutes. (Out in the sticks, there aren't very many charging stations.)
At this time, I think PHEVs are the best of both worlds for some people. Certainly for my usage.
Hi Doc, I bought a used 2018 RAV4 hybrid earlier this year and love it. I drove a friends RAV4 Prime before I bought it and would have bought one if my finances would have allowed it. Oh well, maybe a used one in a couple of years. I totally agree with your conclusions though.
RAV4 prime is the best PHEV since the Volt itself, imo. Test driving one today!
Everywhere? You're driving "everywhere"? No... this goes back to their point about people buying based on what they might need. If you really need to go somewhere that you cannot charge... just rent a car. Or, buy a Tesla.
BTW, your usage... is based on your uninformed perspective. I have been driving EVs for 6 years. We don't own an ICE vehicle. Our first EV was a PHEV and no... you really don't want one unless you really need it... not your "might need" situation. Driving a PHEV turns into a game. As soon as you get one based on your perspective, you will try to never use fuel (unless you're silly because electricity is cheaper than fuel). And it is just going to leave you wishing you had bought an EV with sufficient range.
@@dus10dnd Yet another insufferable EV cult member telling people what to do.
@@larder548
I found driving was not complicated, just let the car do it’s thing and switch modes as necessary. Don’t bother worrying about plugging in on a trip, just drive. What I found incredibly complicated was what charger to use at home and what electrical work was needed. The Logistics of outlet placement, cable length and what level charger was a challenge. I eventually realized that we did not really need anything more than a level 1 charger and most importantly that there are better level 1 chargers with longer cables than what the dealer gives you. Just by purchasing an after market charger/cable made a 30 percent faster charge with a 4 foot longer cable.
and it's ridiculous that the car mfr doesn't provide that info which would enhance the value of the car. OR, the gvt should regulate this info so that ppl can easily get it. These united states, our country, is not wel regulated, like our cousin countries are, namely Oz/nz and europe. Really getting sick of this crap.
@@18_rabbit I mean, they literally provide you with a cable that just plugs into an ordinary wall socket. People have these ideas in their head that they need a level 2 charger at home, but that's not something that manufacturers told them.
@@AUniqueHandleName444 Yes one doesn't need level 2 charging at home but it really cuts down the time to charge and allows one to use the cheapest times available form the grid or solar to recharge the PHEV battery. I've been doing that with a 2023 Volvo XC 60 ReCharge T8. Very fast PHEV and after 3500 miles I'm averaging 81 MPG and loving it. 42 miles EV range.
Yeah PHEV are not intended to be charged on trips, it is just not worth it at all, you would be stopping all the time.
I agree my Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross PHEV is just charged every night at home from a standard 3pin wall plug and this system works really well for me. You don't really need to upgrade to a bigger and faster charger. Greetings from downunder!
After a ton of research, I decided I wanted a RAV4 Prime (to replace my 2008 Outback), and I spent two years trying to find one without a huge markup (they're not sold in Washington state where I live). I also looked at the KIA Sportage PHEV which is sold in my state. I live on a small island in a condominium with only one allotted parking space. I wanted all electric for my short island drives, but I also wanted a vehicle large enough for car camping and off the beaten path road trips (including the potential to sleep in the car). In an ideal world, with the luxury of owning two parking spaces, I would have gotten an old Leaf for my local drives and a hybrid for the camping trips. The RAV4 Prime is over-priced, but I view it as owning two vehicles in one, with the reliability and resale value of the Toyota brand. I finally bought a used RAV4 Prime in July and I love it!
Good choice. I think you unknowingly dodged a bullet. Leaving batteries to sit unused, shortens their lifespan. If you wanted a second vehicle, exclusively for road trips, I wouldn't recommend an EV, or hybrid.
@@chuckwilliams6261 blah blah
As a somewhat frequent car renter, I'm really frustrated by rental car agencies who have embraced EV rentals, but for decades now, basically ignored hybrids in their fleets. On a recent trip to the southwest, we flew into Las Vegas where we could have had our pick of a dozen EVs, but with lots of driving to National Parks as part of the plan, and hundreds of miles driving on desert highways, we just couldn't risk not having a place to charge. But if there were a traditional hybrid, the gas savings would have been spectacular.
European fleets from the mainstream car rental companies have more hybrids this year, but I agree that they have been slow to change. Hybrid in my opinion is better than EV for rental, no need to worry about charging, way better fuel efficiency than regular gaz or diesel engines.
Hybrid already selling so well, they don't want to discount for those fleet cars. Agencies can only get what other people don't want.
I reserved a Hybrid car specifically on a recent trip (online reservation claimed I would have some type of hybrid vehicle). When I arrived they had no hybrids and then proceeded to "upgrade" my reservation with an overpowered higher horsepower variety of some mid size SUV. Do they not understand that someone with a reservation for a hybrid would prefer to have a 4 cylinder vehicle and not the V-8? Trying to rent a hybrid is INDEED a FRUSTRATING experience with the rental companies.
Interestingly, I read recently that Hertz is dumping thousands of EV's from its fleet and not purchasing more as they had promised to do. Mostly seems to apply to Teslas.
That’s interesting. In my province in Canada we have a car rental service whose fleet consists primarily of hybrids. The rest are a mix of ICE and EVs.
I owned a gen1 volt from 2012 to 2017. I changed it due to seating comfort and related issues for long drives. After 70k miles and five years, I used gas only for about 5% of the miles. Visted dealer only two times for oil change. Total service costs under $200. Great car.
PHEVs are a great choice for most people.
Hybrids are a CRAPPY car w/ a Vibrator sized battery , for your Girlfriend.
Changing oil only 2 times in 5 years is not good for that ICE
@@clarkkent9080 Not really an issue. You can check the stats on the Volt, including the oil life. Since I drive mostly on electricity, the ICE standard rule of "change oil and filter every 3000 miles" is utter nonsense. I only change when the theoretical oil life (a factor of engine use) is down to around 10-15%. Maybe a bit sooner if I'm planning a road trip (all gas-powered) in the near future.
@@kayl456jennaI'm also a gen 2 volt owner. Unless you're a volt owner, you won't understand. 25k kms was the best distance per tank of gas I've ever gotten. My avg is 90% electric to gas ratio. I honestly wish they'd bring back the voltec system. I love driving on battery power 100% of the time, even when the ICE generator is running. Such an amazing car
@@alisatrelivingVoltec (sadly) was its own worst enemy. Most folks don’t understand it and GM didn’t try to explain it. An enormous amount of thought clearly in execution and engineering. Voltec would be the perfect bridge to future when reliable EV charge grid in place. Love my ‘16. Best car I’ve owned in 50 yrs of driving.
I had a 2g Volt and I loved it. And as an engineer I was amazed at how sophisticated it was and how seamlessly it could manage the power. However, my daily commute was 54 miles and it could only do it in non-winter. So instead of "range anxiety" I had "dont let the engine come on anxiety" and I did a lot of planning to find the optimum time to run the engine (usually first thing on cold days so I could get heat for "free"). And I hated carrying all that stuff around with me and almost never needing it; and it took up a lot of room. So I sold it and got a Bolt. Not as fun a car but way more practical.
But the Volt was the "maximum" electric-like PHEV you could get. It IS an electric car, just with a 2010-sized battery and an engine to provide electricity when you exceed 53 miles.
I see the attraction of plug-in hybrids is for those who take long trips. For me, a long trip in an EV is currently affected by the relative scarcity and time waiting at charging stations. A plug-in hybrid doesn’t have that issue. Additionally, there are the benefits the reviewers mention (especially using electric only for shorter commuting and errands).
This was the prime reason I went with a PHEV. Usually just use all electric tange, but when 8 take longr trips I’ e got no range concerns.
I’ve owned my RAV4 Prime XSE for 2 1/2 years. In that time I’ve accrued 50,000 miles; 60% electric. 40% gasoline. The gasoline engine, which most often is used on the highway, has averaged 38 mpg.
Acceleration is phenomenal. The AWD works well especially since I installed Michelin Cross Climate 2 tires a year ago.
If you pay attention and drive as this auto was designed the results will make you a believer. It has my wife who at first was very skeptical.
Same experience here. Toyota hit the sweet spot on electric range and hybrid gas efficiency and a super practical car for winter weather driving.
Why did you get rid of it ?
Range of the plug-in is important . Plug-in EV need minimum 40 miles + Range.
what's your total range on a full tank and charge?
@@mcbjvhgurl600 miles in the summer. Mind you, the empty gas light will come on when there’s still 3 gallons left in the tank.
Not sure when this was recorded but wanted to double check the math here. Given that today's CAD/USD rate is $1CAD to $0.73USD, at $1.75CAD/liter, would that equate to $1.28USD/liter. If I multiply that by 3.785, would that be $4.83USD/gal?
You are correct. I mathed the conversion rate wrong (mult instead of the divided) so the costs look much higher. The good part - is it affects both gas and electricity proportionally so the advice is still right. Sorry Canadians!!
Here's the latest version of our PHEV cost calculator with all the correct info: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AHW1tUQIXa5NMWAKLHxKh1Xoro6tkOHpyV6cDbAu6U8/edit?usp=sharing
@@consumerreports Your price per kWh is still wrong. It should convert to around US $0.11, although that doesn't change the comparison.
The main issue I had with hybrids when I was last buying a 2nd car for the family (and decided on a commuter type EV, 2019 Hyundai Ioniq) was why should I buy the headaches of an ICE (oil changes, etc.). My older ICE car would be the 'road tripper' while the EV would be for daily driving. Both would be more efficient operating in their 'sweet spot'. If you are a one car family, a hybrid (plug in or not) would be the right choice. But for a 2 car family, let the two cars create your 'hybrid system'.
I get a kick out of people thinking oil changes are a massive hassle. Most modern vehicles only require that a few times per year and you can get it don't drive in, drive out for several tens of dollars. Takes less time than some electric car chargers :).
Oil changes aren't a frequent thing with a PHEV. With my C-Max Energi it's every 2 years or 20,000 miles, or if the oil monitor light comes on before that.
We have a Honda Clarity PHEV for road trips and a Nissan LEAF for local use. In the summer the Clarity gives us >45 mpg in hybrid mode and 60 miles range on the battery on surface streets.
My exact thought.
A PHEV is not really that complicated. When I drive the Clarity, I really enjoy the whole "let's see what this thing can do" puzzle. My wife on the other hand is just a, "turn it on and go" type of person. They work perfectly fine either way. So if you are deciding about one, leave all this nonsense on the table and know all you have to do is plug it in and drive it like a normal car. Because of the bigger battery, efficiency can be slightly greater because if there is a big dynamic charging event, the battery is big enough to absorb all of it. If you are a nerd and want many things to play with, they are there for you also. Quite frankly though, you may be able to squeeze another 5% out of it, not worth it to my wife, but quite enjoyable to me. I also only change the oil every 2 years because it only burns about 10 gallons of gas per year, so maintenance, while still there, is considerably less than a strait gas car and is still less than a hybrid.
if the oil minder system is not suuuper smart (which i seriously doubt it is) u probably should change oil once a year. This is bcuz the PHEV's tend to have the engine come on for brief periods, sometimes super brief and brief means condensation accumulates, and that is very degrading of both the oil and metal components. How smart Honda made the whole system, i dunno, ie if they made it smart enough to get hot enough to burn off all the condensation and fuel (fuel dilution is a major thing in engines nowadays), i dunno. I'd deifnitely change once a year at a cheaper indy mechanic ship or DIY at home if u like to.
@@18_rabbit Yep in my Volt I change the oil once a year, just regular temperature changes will cause moisture to accumulate in the oil. Even though it has a maintenance mode that idles the engine after a certain period of time of not running (like months) I still change the oil in it when I do the rest of my vehicles. Takes about ten minutes since everything is really easy to get to in the Volt.
Some hybrids are very complicated unfortunately (from a mechanical standpoint). For example the Hyundai hybrids use a parallel system with a dual-clutch transmission, which introduces a ton of wear components.
Having two drive trains and a battery seems like a lot of extra weight that would impact mpg
@@jacksmith7726 Probably no more so than lugging around a battery sized for your once a year road trip.
I have 2023 Volvo S60 T8 PHEV and it's a great car. It drives like a normal S60 - just a lot more powerful. It's faster than most cars on the road (including most BEVs), it can do ~40 miles of pure electric range so if you daily commute is shorter it's like a BEV, it's actually smart on longer trips (if you use the Google Maps built-in navigation) to optimize battery/gas usage. You have no range anxiety because if you run out of battery it's still a 2.0 Turbo, 310HP regular gas car. Oh, since it's a Volvo, it's super comfortable, safe beyond belief, built quality is terrific, materials are good-to-great. The same would apply to the XC90 and XC60 T8 PHEVs - just with less range as SUVs are heavier and less aerodynamic.
I just saw several TH-cam presentations on the new Volvo X30 and I'm impressed. It's reasonably priced. Volvos seem to have higher prices.
A couple of observations: You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Buy a PHEV if your normal use profile fits with what they are good at. Most people are not going to try to optimize every trip, and will leave the car in its automatic setting, where it will mix and max the power trains to provide the best result. In that setting, full power will always come on if you floor it. BEV's are not difficult to charge, and only delay the start of charge when the owner sets it that way. If you have a level 2 charger, plug it in after the last trip of the day, unplug it when you start the first trip. You can set it for off-peak charging if you want. Road tripping a Tesla is not an anxiety producing event. It's quite simple, the car tells you when to charge and routes you to the charger. No looking at a cell phone. Tesla public chargers are 99% reliable. You will usually go from10% to 80% in 20 minutes. There are many reasons to have a larger battery, than you need for day to day use. Get as much range as you can afford.
Phev is the best of both worlds many times. However quality of technology is not as even field as EVs.
Been driving my Prius Plug-in since 2013. Took it from SF area to Vancouver BC and back, Denver area and back, Oregon, Yosemite, etc.
50 MPG on the highway. At home, plug in at night to a wall outlet. Half my total miles are electric. Favorite car ever. These guys make it WAAAY too complicated.
Some PHEVs will not use the gas engine unless you select it or the battery is depleted (Chevy Volt, Ford Fusion are two that I've owned that work this way)
Obviously, Tesla thought this all through. All the others just jumped on the EV bandwagon without having any charging infrastructure of their own.
As Tesla owner for two years road tripping is not an anxiety producing event. You do have to be knowledgeable about charging options if you stray from the Interstate and large towns. But otherwise it’s easy with the Tesla charging network and the car does all the work for you.
Drove a Model Y for 3 months a couple of years ago, bought a used RAV4 Prime recently and absolutely love the Prime. in the first 2 weeks I drove about a mile in hybrid mode. It fits my typical driving perfectly and is so easy to deal with in terms of plugging in to a normal outlet etc.
His comparison of his wife, Priius, to the Testla made me quit watching.
gotta keep the oil stirred up in it sometime. 🙂
Right now I love PHEV because they weigh less and cost less than BEV. I can charge every night in my garage to start every morning with a full battery, so I almost never use gas, but when I do need to take a trip I have no anxiety with range or finding charging stations. Yes I'm carrying around a gas engine I rarely need, but a 200mi battery weighs even more than a 40mi battery and a small gas engine
Thank you!!! I was thinking the same thing
This may be a short-term issue, but I think you also have to consider price and availability when selecting a PHEV. When I first started looking, around 18 months ago, the PHEV concept sounded great for my typical use, so I started shopping. What an eye opener! I learned a number of things. First of all, manufacturers don't always offer PHEVs in all states. They seem to focus more on the "blue" states. The cars sellout fast, so good luck finding one, and if you do, be prepared to pay a big dealer add-on. When I first started looking, dealers were tacking $10k on top of the MSRP for the RAV4. Are you effing kidding me?! Sorry, just can't do it. I decided to wait. I finally gave in last month and bought a 2024 Hyundai Tucson PHEV. I still paid MSRP, which is more than I wanted to pay, but I was able to buy it off the lot. Maybe price and availability are becoming more reasonable now.
So far, I'm very pleased with the Tucson.
My sister lives in surrey bc and she's enjoying her hyundai tucson phev without being added to the list she went to the dealership and there was 1 available as it was supposed to have been ready for delivery and the buyer was transferred to Europe
If by blue you mean ZEV status states. Take that up with your representative. This isn’t a political thing. Most PHEVs are “compliance vehicles” meant to fit certain laws and standards so manufacturers can get incentives. If your state reps and lobbies don’t desire ZEV status that’s a decision you can raise your voice on.
I drive a Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid in Texas. I had to buy it out of state - it wasn’t offered in Texas and certainly not PHEV. I love it but can’t wait to go fully electric next time.
Can a regular hybrid be charged on home power?
@@davetupling2678 "Can a regular hybrid be charged on home power?" From what I've seen, only if it is called a PHEV (plug in electric vehicle). I think PHEVs are the way to go in the future where it is the best of both worlds, EV and ICE. The optimum compromise especially if the manufacturers continue to improve EV range (battery capacity), simplicity (separate ICE and EV components) and more overall power (both ICE and electric motor) for the "fun factor".
Make sure you test the Outlander PHEV which is what I have. Fuel economy isn’t great which I am seeing anywhere from 25-35 mpg after depleting the battery. However, that is not as important when I am averaging 1500+ miles between fill ups. EV range is useful for me at 30-50 miles. PHEV won’t work for people who live in apartments because having access to overnight charging is the key.
Many love that. Especially who need more 4WD capability than Rav4.
Yes, I’ve had an Outlander PHEV for 6 mos and I’ve used a total of 2 tanks of gas. I drive 5-40 miles per day, and therefore hardly ever use gas. It makes me use it after 3 months. Power management is fine. Very smooth. I generally don’t manage the EV vs gas settings. “Train conductor” is really exaggerating the experience. I chose the Outlander for the 3rd row jump seat capability (kids). My husband has a Tesla. Both vehicles are great, different use cases. (2 L2 chargers)
I recently got a 9 year old PHEV and am digging it, but I'm a renter and need to move and it's tricky to find another place to live that fits my needs where I'll be able to plug in outside
Unless we get some dope charging infrastructure, the future is homeowners in cool EVs and everyone else spending 6hrs/day on the bus or something something
The biggest thing that went into my choice to go full electric was the moving parts. In a phev, you have the motor, battery, and a mechanical interface with the gasoline engine. In the gasoline engine alone there are hundreds of components plus the transmission which has to shift gear to gear. In an ev you just have one gear, a motor and a battery.
Yeah, we are currently in the market for a new car and considering among hybrid/PHEV (Toyota) and pure EV (Tesla), and spent a lot of time debating. We test drove RAV4, Venza, and Model Y. Think we have finally reached our conclusion, a Tesla. Just don’t want to deal with the hybrids. They are essentially still an ICE car that come with pretty much the same maintenances, and on top of that, a separate electrical system. Plus, the overall fuel efficiency is good but not that great. We like the overall experience with Tesla!
@@lindenlee3705 the Mitsubishi Eclipse-cross PHEV gets a claimed 1.9 litres/100 km. No idea what that is in US mpg, but it's more efficient than a Prius. Yes, an EV ought to be a lot simpler mechanically, but you have all the range anxiety issues. It depends on your use-case.
Between me and my wife we've driven 132,000 pure electric miles between our cars (Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3) since 2019. We've never once wished we had a hybrid. This includes several multi-k mile road trips in the Tesla.
@@lindenlee3705 'overall efficiency' is a total cost issue i assume? if just the physics, then by definition, it's a wash since of course, the principles of thermodynamics rules the roost, ie it's all the same efficiency-wise, or very close. But total owner cost indeed includes maintenance, and if u dn't use an indy mechanic/shop for that or DIY, then yeah i guess the EV could end up cheaper, by a bit. But obviously the elecricity cost vs fuel, will be your main comparison and that will be the main difference probably. But to me, for those who dn't need a car for road trips or specifically road trips into the deep country, then an EV is often the no brainer choice. That said, for those who need very small range, then these Teslas are way way more EV than needed. But i guess there are few EV's with small range right now , maybe? but soon we will have quite a few including possibly great chinese ones, bcuz the chinese, wrt the the actual EV systems, are just as good as the best, ie Tesla, if not better, apparently. We shall see.
@@lindenlee3705 I only buy used vehicles and wound up with a PHEV Cadillac ELR (a fancy Chevy Volt). I just couldn't justify the $20k extra for a used Tesla over the Caddy I bought. How many gallons of gas do I have to save to make that up?
I burn between 0.7 -1.2 gallons a day depending on the season for my 93 mile work commute with a charge at home and a charge at work. That's a lot of trips to make up for buying the used Tesla.
The other thing I learned about the Tesla when I was researching them is their owners like to claim they can charge to 80% in 20 minutes, but what they leave out is that Tesla recommends supercharger use only on occasion as it does stress the battery and will shorten its life. The best way to charge the battery is slowly, overnight at home. If you don't have a charger at home then you're looking at potentially a lot of supercharger use.
Then there's the cost of the battery when it's time to replace it. I saw around $25k to replace the battery in a Tesla and it's not even a new battery from Tesla, it's refurbished.
PHEV is two cars in one. If you manage to use EV mode for majority of your driving, the engine will be reserved and it would be almost as new when the battery degraded. Then you can use your PHEV as a hybrid.
No. When the battery takes a crap in a Hybrid the car stops working properly, or stops entirely.
But that may be 10 years or more
@@DonziGT230care to provide a citation for this opinion? It contradicts many owner videos here on YT of old Volts and Camrys with completely flat battery packs that now run exclusively on the gas engine.
I can't speak to anything more recent, but I had to scrap my 2003 Civic Hybrid when the battery died and the tab to replace it was more than the car was worth.@@morstyrannis1951
@@morstyrannis1951 Hybrid, not PHEV - he means the 12-volt SLI that *no* car can operate without. Purely disingenuous.
The Volt was a complicated system but mine worked fine for the 11 years I owned it. It got great mileage, was wonderful to drive (the final drive was electric so it was like driving something special). Complicated yes, but IT WORKED! If it was not reliable or was in the shop all the time, a complicated car is a problem. But the Volt was carefully executed. I experienced no battery degradation over 11 years - GM really understood what needed to keep the battery happy which is the key. I miss it terribly.
I've had a BMW 530e plug-in hybrid for some 5+ years and love it. I always plug it in to 110 volts at home overnight using the charger that came with the car, and it's never seen a public charger. As a retiree, almost all of my driving is short local trips, the great bulk of it in electric-only mode. I do occasionally take a long trip in it, so the gas engine comes on, but not enough to significantly affect the average fuel economy much, which to date has been about 42 mpg, not too shabby for a large luxury car. Part of that is on long trips the car is operating as a full hybrid. So I figure I have most of the advantages of a full BEV but with no range anxiety at all.
One thing that I feel doesn't get enough press is the performance advantages of hybrids and plug-in hybrids. The new eCorvette and a lot of racecars utilize hybrids, not for their fuel economy but for their performance due to their low-end torque. In fact, BMW designates mine as an iPerformance model.
The Volt was actually the simplest type of PHEV, they all should have been like that. The Prius was horrifyingly complex in comparison.
My 2018 Volt LE is great. Pretty much the best of electric driving with no range anxiety and I can plug it into the 110 outlet in my garage overnight for a full charge. For me the major negative is the lack of meaningful cabin heat during winter driving unless the ICE is running. My Volt's specified electric range is 53 miles but during warm weather, I've reached 70+ miles multiple times on electric only. I typically carry no more than 1/2 tank of gas unless I'm planning a lot of highway driving, during which I switch to ICE mode. After having a PHEV, I would not consider a 100% EV until there is a truly supportive infrastructure and EVs have batteries that can be fully recharged within 15 minutes.
I understand the Telsa Supercharger can do 80% in 20 minutes.
I like the Volt. But 47 percent of PHEVS drivers don't plug in.
I'm a retiree and own a 2022 Toyota RAV4 Prime. I drive short commutes every 2-3 days. I drive long trips (100 miles+) about 2-3 times a year. Daily EV driving range is 48-50 miles (38-40 miles at first but has now settled closer to 50 miles). I installed a 240 EV system in my garage and charge the car about twice a week (when the remaining EV range has reached 0%). I only charge between midnight-6:00am when rates are about 11 cents per kwh. I use approx. 4 - 5 kwh for a full charge (usually from 35-37% to 100%). Also, the utility company provides a rebate of approx. 1.5 kwh (between 12 and 6am), so overall charging costs are minimal. Toyota did the right thing when they built this car which is why they are so popular but difficult to find. I love the car. Peace of mind is an extra benefit so its money well spent imo!
Here in Alaska, my Rav4 Prime is the perfect car - and I almost never plug it in. In the dead of winter, my 2 mile drive to work every day would be hell on any ICE-only car. (Short trips and never warming the engine up) I just use electric. Milage per KWH is as expected in cold. Couple 2 or 3 days a week after work - and weekends I hit the gym about 20 minutes away - so I use Charge mode maybe once or twice per week. Warm the engine up nice, and put EV miles in the coffer for the week's short trips to & from work. The car's heat pump heating is inefective on a lot of colder days and would otherwise force an engine start so my fix is to use my little 400W fan heater instead. Gotta love that nice 120v 1500 watt AC outlet.
Summer time if I'm stuck following someone on a dry dusty gravel road I go EV and avoid packing the ICE's air filter full of crap. When I need to pass, this thing just teleports me in front and I'm on my way again.
Longer roadtrips like Anchorage, or to "the States", I enjoy some "energy management" tasks to stay engaged, and the geek in me LOVES it.
As discussed in this video, each vehicle (ICE, HEV, BEV, PHEV) has its pros and cons.
In 2022, I purchased a Lexus NX 450h+ (PHEV), because I prefer Japanese made reliability and I probably meet the Goldilocks definition for a PHEV buyer. I retain my vehicles 15+ years; typically drive approximately 20 miles/day; rarely make trips over 50 miles; live in a moderate climate with year-round daytime temperatures generally between 50-80°F; am subject to very high gas prices locally; and regularly plug-into my home's 110V outlet (it only takes an extra 15 seconds to do so). Roughly 85% of my driving is purely EV. Most of the remaining 15% driven in hybrid (HEV) is done primarily to "exercise" the combustion engine and to refresh the gasoline. Additionally, I benefitted from a $7,500 tax credit when I purchased the Lexus 15 months ago (no longer available today).
As a side note, other variables can come into the decision making process. I often heard the Lexus NX 450h+ is nothing more than a RAV4 Prime with "lipstick." At the time, our local Toyota dealer was marking up the Prime by $10,000 with wait times over 1 year. I paid MSRP and waited 7 months for the Lexus, so my decision was a "no brainer." Also, I briefly considered the Volvo XC Recharge. Initially, I was enamored by its power and 0-60 speed, but (rightly or wrongly) I'm biased against Chinese products, and Volvo is owned by Geely, a Chinese company. The real deal breaker, however, was Volvo's nearest dealership being 95 miles from my home (vs. 5 miles to Lexus). Yes, dealer servicing and reputation can be another buying consideration.
So as Consumer Reports states, a PHEV may not be the right vehicle for many buyers. Buyers must honestly analyze their needs, emotions, and budget, then carefully evaluate the vehicles that check most of their boxes. For those like me, the Lexus NX 450h is a great match for my needs, a pleasure to drive, and its PHEV functionality meets or exceeds all my expectations.
@johntobin I totally agree with your situation as I'm in the similar climate and now retired. The Volvo dealer is 5 miles from my home so purchase was comparable to most other makes. Leasing allowed the $7500 tax credit reduction when I purchased. I'm hoping that the selection of PHEVs available over the next years improves to provide more models similar to or better the best available now because the current selection that attracts my interest was very limited and usually more expensive (Porsche, Mercedes) than what I bought.
Thank you for focusing an entire installment on PHEVs. Very informative, especially the (very granular) discussion of costs at the end. A topic that wasn't covered, though, was the basic topic of plugging in. Given how poorly informed some are about EVs, PHEVs, HEVs, etc., it might haven been useful to discuss the importance of plugging in daily and that there is no need to upgrade the wiring in the garage to accommodate a PHEV. Because there is no consequence to forgetting to plug in-you'll still be able to get to work-owners may fall out of the habit of routinely plugging in at night. Still, a very lively and useful discussion overall.
We don't. I think in the past 2.5 years of ownership we've forgotten maybe twice. The biggest issue is to not plug in the vehicle after every short trip. Batteries have a limited number of recharge cycles - in the case of the Rav4 Prime that number is thought to be around 5,000 before the battery hits the 20% down mark. So if we are doing a series of short trips over successive days we'll avoid plugging in. As a result, we have now put the battery through around 250 cycles. This means the batteries will likely last for our lifetime or the car's lifetime (whichever ends first). Our goal is to drive the car, with the current battery, for 20 years.
@@davidgapp1457So what about someone who can’t charge at home and needs to charge at free chargers on the road. I picture myself only being able to charge a Prius Prime a few times a week sporadically 1/2 to 1 hr intervals. I’m planning on getting a regular Prius because of this but I’m concerned in about 5 yrs I will regret not getting the Prime. I’m not in the position to replace my car every few years. I commute about 45 mins about 2-4 days per week and use my car every day for errands etc.
@@davidgapp1457 nice car, to say the least. Live long and prosper!
2018 Porsche Panamera plug in hybrid works great for me. 30 miles of electric range gets me back and forth from work and long trips are great. Performance is more than I will ever need.
Damn I wish I had the $$ for a Panamara! 🤣
Hi folks - very interesting video, I have learned some more than I knew before... so thanks for that. Just one point that was made right near the end:- the reason the 12 volt battery dies in many modern cars (not necessarily hybrids, but particularly hybrids of any type) after only a few weeks is that power from this source is being used by various systems monitoring all sorts of aspects of vehicle/engine/accessories etc. Unless you disconnect the 12 volt battery when leaving a vehicle unused for some time, it will run down, like it or not. But DON'T disconnect the 12 volt, because you will probably find a dash full of warning lights come on after reconnecting it! It's part of the overall system, and ECUs and other electronic systems won't like being disturbed. This is one of many things that are completely different in the modern era - EVERYthing needs a lot or a little electrical input, even when the two battery systems might appear separate. Everything is interconnected, like it or not. Just a thought.
Totally agree....use a trickle charger if possible to maintain the 12 volt while stored.
27:50 your conversions are out - 1 US gallon = 3.785 litres that's correct and that $1.75 (which is actually $1.60 today) is in Canadian Rubbles, your conversion from CAD to USD is the wrong way around.
Using the CAD$1.75 per litre - CAD$6.62 per US gallon = USD$4.82 per gallon not $8.94, $1 CAD = 73 US cents not $1.39 USD
I’m wondering if these guys ever correct themselves? It appears the guy in the black long sleeve t-shirt didn’t do well in math.
I went with the Jeep Wrangler 4xE
. I mainly purchased it because with the four cylinder turbo plus the electric motor in the transmission it gives you a lot more combined horsepower regardless of battery state than the non-plug-in hybrid version. I didn't want to spend the extra money for their big 492 and the horrible gas mileage it gets. The bonus was since I have a level two charger in my garage for months on end for running errands around town I never use gasoline. And yes when I leave town and go on vacation it's a hybrid with just a lot of extra power. Jeep replaced the alternator with a generator that powers the electric motor regardless of battery state so for me it's a win.
You don’t buy the 392 because of gas mileage, you get it because having a V8 in a Wrangler is rare and fun.
Everything Jeep makes seems to break, so good luck with a hybrid Jeep.
I’m not trying to be a dick, but adding Jeep “quality” to an ultra-complex engine is a recipe for disaster.
@@jsimmons12 Not if you hardly ever use it except on the highway.
I’ve been driving a Model 3 for 4 years. The biggest unexpected difference between this a my Prius is the massively reduced maintenance cost (and bother). Also I couldn’t be happier to not have a dealership to deal with.
Do you mean Prius is much cheaper to maintain? Only swap small battery in 170k miles? And Tesla half a car price on 100k? 😅
Keep it for the avg 10 years and let's talk. Oil change maintenance my be reduced but when something goes wrong or wears out aha you see the shocking extra cost and availability of parts and service code and time and it won't feel better at all. If not you then that's for others that keep cars. Even my Gen 1 Chevy volt only needed oll changes every 20k miles so about 8 months for me. Many people take over a year. It ain't that bad but all the exotic service issues still exist done day so though it's been the most robotic car I've ever had. Just goes everywhere, every day untouched.
My 2022 Plug-in Prius is the perfect car for me. I would 20 miles from home so I arrive at work with about 10% of the battery left. I plug it in at work and it is charged up for my trip home. I often run errands and the car automatically switches over to hybrid mode when the battery goes down, with no intervention from me. Some of these other plugins sound way too complicated. All I have to do is remember to plug in when I arrive at home and at work.
I *LOVED* our 2016 Hyundai Sonata PHEV, when it was new. My wife's work took her less than the rated distance on battery only, round trip. But, it also required her to drive further too--making an all electric very impractical for her. But, it would sometimes fail to charge up overnight. Eventually, it spent months in the service department, as the replacement parts had to be shipped in from South Korea. This told me that more Sonata PHEV's failed, just like mine. Eventually, I used our state Lemon Laws, and Hyundai bought it back. We decided to go with an extremely reliable Honda Accord gasoline model, and have not stopped loving it.
thanks for the cautionary tale!
Model Y maintenance schedule:
Brake Fluid Health Check: Every 4 years, replace if necessary12.
A/C Desiccant Bag Replacement: Also every 4 years.
Cabin Air Filter Replacement:
Standard cabin air filter: Every 2 years.
HEPA and carbon filters (if equipped): Every 3 years.
For vehicles in China: Replace HEPA and carbon filters every year2.
Clean and Lubricate Brake Calipers: Annually or every 12,500 miles (20,000 km) if you drive in areas where roads are salted during winter1.
Tire Rotation: Every 6,250 miles (10,000 km) or if the tread depth difference is 2/32 inch (1.5 mm) or greater, whichever comes first13.
HEPA Filter Replacement: Every 3 years (or every year in China)12.
PHEV maintenance per Microsoft bing:
Regular Maintenance:
Oil and Filter Changes: Just like conventional gasoline-powered cars, PHEVs require regular oil and filter changes.
Coolant Checks: Monitor the radiator coolant levels to ensure proper cooling.
Fluid Checks: Regularly inspect brake fluid and power steering fluid.
Hose and Spark Plug Checks: Examine hoses and spark plugs for wear.
Tire Rotations: Rotate tires to ensure even wear.
Suspension and Fuel System: Check suspension components and inspect the fuel filter and pump.
PHEV-Specific Systems:
Hybrid Battery: The hybrid battery powers the PHEV when the gasoline engine is not in use. Regular health checks ensure optimal performance and efficiency.
Inverter Coolant: Different from engine coolant, the inverter coolant is crucial for converting DC power to AC power for the electric motor.
Regenerative Braking: PHEVs use regenerative braking to store kinetic energy in the battery during braking. Technicians check for brake binding.
Charging Port: Inspect the charging port for any damage and replace parts as needed.
Frequency of Checks:
Every 3,000 to 5,000 Miles: Have the hybrid components inspected during oil changes.
Refer to the Owner’s Manual: Follow the automaker’s recommendations for specific service intervals1.
Per PHEV manufacturers don't park inside as >100 times more fire prone than BEVs
The 'A' interval service for my Merc is £30 more than the same 'A' service for the pure petrol equivalent.
I don't understand why they can't do a straight EV with an easily/detachable attachable generator. No extra drivetrain. They could put less battery capacity in it to lower weight and you could add the generator when you need to take a long trip. If the car sees the trip is going to be 500 plus miles it could start the gennie and keep it running even when the car is stopped for food or bathroom breaks.
If consumption outstrips demand say with big loads or high speeds, you might eventually need to stop at a supercharger to top off, but for most long distance trips EV with the generator topping off the batteries should keep everything rolling. It could run all night if you are at a campsite or offgrid if need be. Batteries would be charged when you wake up.
The gennie could be removed from the car and save weight / increase frunk space if the day to day requirements are just around 40 miles of EV with charging at night.
That's my kind of EV/hybrid!⛰🌎
I understand why. Because small gas engines in generators are highly polluting compared to any car engine or any electricity source for an EV. Buying an EV and charging it with a terrible little gas engine, is simply a terrible idea. It is no different than saying that all new cars no longer have to meet any emission standards at all.
Plus, no longer having to deal with gasoline any longer, is one of the greatest benefits of an EV. Going backwards and having to deal with funneling gas from a can into a generator, is absolutely ridiculous, 100x dirtier than just filling up a car's gas tank.
Where, pray tell, would this generator be carried? Inside the passenger compartment of the EV, creating a fire hazard? Externally, ruining the car's aerodynamics and reducing range? In a little trailer every EV owner would have to pull?
Thanks, but no. For now, I'll stick with my PHEV, and not be smelling gas vapor as I drive, from carrying a generator. And EV owners will stick with paying for however much range they need, and charging up without spilling gas on their hands.
Over the years, I had bought the Toyota 2008 Prius, 2013 Prius V (V, not 5), and decided to get rid of the Prius "morning shakes". Both Prius were amazingly slow but did pushed out averages 38-42 MPG for the Prius and 32-38MPG for the Prius V. I then went to Honda 2018 Clarity PHEV Touring. My week days are approximately 15 miles round trips for work and about 80miles for the weekend fun. Honda Clarity PHEV averages 137MPG to 199MPG depends on how many times I charged the Honda at work or at home. I use both 120 Volt regular wall socket and garage dryer 240 Volt socket for a quick 2.5hrs in between to meet the driving needs. Not ready for a full EV yet, because I had already tried many broken charging stations and waiting time at the "charging pump". PHEV is the way to go for a normal usage when the at home/work charges can save me tones of money and no need to wait on a busy charging station with multiple broken plastic handles. Honda Clarity PHEV costs 7 gallons per month. You do the math. Now, I'm waiting for the next PHEV.
The reason your utility gives you a rebate 24:58 and pushes your charging off until night is it lowers their peak power demand. This saves them money and ideally it prevents the grid from having to build more peaking generation plants that would cause everyone in your area to have a large rate increase.
Not all utilities do this. Definitely a case-by-case basis sort of thing.
And then there’s PG&E, who will take every opportunity to gouge you😂.
Vox made a good TH-cam video regarding how the bottleneck of infrastructure is the power grid transmission lines need updating before widespread BEV adoption occurs
The guy said his utility doesn't vary the rate by hour of day. It may be that the car itself is set to finish charging at a certain time. You can usually enter settings about whether to charge immediately, or to have it finish charging at a desired time.
Sorry Canadians! I mathed the conversion rate wrong. I multiplied when I should have divided to convert to USD. But since both gas and electricity are proportionally lower, the advice still stands. -Jake
I was just about to make the same comment. As you state, the analysis is still excellent.
Finally!
While watching the video, I nearly yelled at the TV! Basic rules for unit conversion: CD/kWh * USD/CD = USD/kWh. Simply logic dictates that since USD > CD, costs fall when converting CD to USD. FYI, gas costs 4.906 USD/gal not 8.94.
what was overlooked in this video is the unique benefit of PHEV in cold weather. you have to make no compromises like you do with a pure EV in the cold. you dont worry about range in the cold because the gas motor can provide super efficient cabin heating and if youre going on a long highway trip, your electric range doesnt change. more important to most consumers is the durability of the battery. PHEV protect their batteries from negligent users by preventing them from over discharging the battery by keeping it above a minimum state of charge while also disincentivising harmful fast charging. why fast charge on a trip when you could fill up with gas much more quickly and reliably while you also ironically end up paying less. the durability of these vehicles is why chevy killed the volt. gen 1 volts are well known to have over 500k miles on them with no noticeable battery degradation, and if there is an issue with the battery, it just reverts to a regular car. with the volt example, the gen1's i know have a bulletproof cast iron block, which will really only get use on the highway and will wear exponentially slower than a gas car in town which is constantly heat cycling on short trips.
I agree on your comments about PHEVs lasting too long for planned obsolescence.
I LOVE my Volvo xc60 PHEV. This conversation has really described my experience very well. I have an incredible amount of flexibility in choosing which fuel source I need and when. For daily trips I can use electricity and when I need to travel long distances or need more power it’s there. For daily trips I charge daily. When I travel away for a weekend I can drive it as a hybrid I have zero range anxiety in places where I don’t have access to a charger. There’s about 400hp total when needed so it’s great. The only downside is that the electric only mode isn’t super powerful but in the city I live in, traffic is generally terrible so you’re never really traveling at high speeds.
Really interesting and entertaining. Great crew. I would have liked to learn more about charging a plug-in like how long it takes and level 1,2,3 what’s advised.
Also the two-powertrain conundrum. If I have a couple adults in the backseat isn’t that about the same weight as a gas powertrain? How much does having passengers really hurt your mileage? Worth a little test?
Most people get groceries or run errands at least once a week and go out for a social life or kids' activities. Add that to a work commute, and that's a few times a week they need the ICE to drive farther. PHEV makes it so a gas tank will go about a month for the typical driver. This is then way to go for reducing emissions since the batteries are much smaller than full electric, so more cars can be built and make a bigger impact. Go PHEV!!!
i don't know if i missed it in the conversation, but does the engine in a plug-in hybrid car charges the battery when its depleted just like a regular hybrid car? or does it only charge by plugging it in?
Remembering the gas lines of the 1970s, the most fundamental advantage of the PHEV is being able to drive on multiple fuel sources - gas, electricity and if you have a home generator, natural gas/propane independently.
Great video. I owned a Lexus RH300 which starts out in EV mode then switches on the gas engine when you exceed a certain speed (25-30 mph?). The initial acceleration was great but then it switched to a "regular" gas engine and ran mostly in that mode. I'm not sold on full electric vehicles since our infrastructure isn't ready yet for mass EV transport-not to mention that the inconvenience of waiting for a charger or finding a "working" charger along the route are not acceptable to most drivers. Hybrids offer the best of both worlds and are the stepping stone technology in our pathway to a mass EV use consumer transportation methodology.
Phev are a small step to EV, hybrids are still gas only vehicles.
@@ralanham76 well the whole point of EV's is to reduce CO2, and that means in toto, today in most locales, EV's are indirectly producing as much C02 as full on ICE cars (even often as much as huge ICE engine cars!). So realityville is that a hybrid that sips fuel is producing far less CO2 than many EV's, if not all EV's actually. Physics matters! lol
A few years ago we were looking at both PHEVs and BEVs. We probably would have purchased a Toyota RAV4 Prime had we been able to find one. After six months of waiting we had the opportunity to test drive an Ioniq 5. A week later we bought it and have been very happy with the decision. I can understand why a PHEV would make sense for some drivers. However, we found the EV ownership experience to be far easier and better than expected. I don’t see us ever buying another internal combustion engine.
BTW-EVs are less efficient at higher speeds than lower speeds but they’re far more efficient than gas vehicles at any speed.
Enjoy
congrats. However, for those of us who paid attention in sci/stem courses even in highschool, let alone uni, it's an ambiguous and inaccurate stmt to say that EV's are 'more efficient' than gas vehicles at all, let alone at any speed. Physics matters!
@@18_rabbitWith internal combustion engines 20-25% of the stored energy in gasoline actually gets to the drive wheels. Most of the energy is lost as waste heat. Electric vehicles can deliver close to 90% of the energy stored in the battery to the drive wheels.
@@18_rabbit You've assumed that there is zero conversion loss between chemical or electrical energy and torque.
This could not be further from the truth - the massive heat generated by an ICE engine is not "free." Physics matters!
My X5 PHEV is great. I plug it in to a normal outlet at night and drive mostly on E in our small city. On road trips it operates as a normal hybrid and gets 15% better mileage than gas only.
Hey guys, great PHEV video, I’m currently driving the last year of the first-generation Chevy Volt (2015). This car is absolutely…amazing! This car rocks. It is very heavy, handles the road like it is on a track and the car feels stable and solid. Quick as a rabbit! Easy to park, maneuver, and is a great city car. My car gets around 40 miles of range on average per charge, this car is built well, no rattles or squeaks so far. The only downside is driving with the windows down is the most annoying thing about this car. This September I will have owned my car for 5 years and have only used approx. 65 gallons of gas. I have only driven in "L" low gear since I owned it this way it able to regenerate my battery as I drive. Fully electric until the battery runs out, however that does not happen very often. With a 220 charger at home in my garage I can go to the gym, run errands plug in and within an hour I back at 40 miles of range. Lastly, I Love how quiet it is...I call it my Ninja mobile because it makes no noise…none, the newer models must make a sound when moving under 5 MPH. Mine came with Leather & Suede Seats, Navigation, Rear View camera, Red Exterior with Tan Interior, and front heated seats. Last week I needed to have the software updated due to some errors codes that would not go away, had to take to the dealer, dealer charged $400 for the update…other than 1 oil change this is the only maintenance I have done on my car for the past 5 years…crazy.
The spreadsheet you made is great. I had elderly friends that wanted to buy the plug-in Mazda, CX 90 and after doing some research on my own I told him it is a very inefficient hybrid. In fact, shockingly poor. Your numbers just backed up my impression.
Hello, great episode and very timely for me as my wife and I recently retired and trying to go down to one car. We want to make the transition to a more environmentally friendly vehicle. But that one car has to do everything - occasional long trips, many short trips, haul stuff, tow stuff, want AWD etc. because Toyota has been making hybrid for a very long time and have a proven track record (look at most taxi fleets, manny are the Prius hybrids), we are on a wait list for the RAV4 Prime. It is really a hybrid vehicle with a larger battery to give you 60km of pure EV range. When in hybrid mode about 6.2L per 100km (I will let you convert to US miles per gallon 😉).
However, in my heart, I would prefer to get a 100% pure EV, but cannot stomach the price premium nor have to rely on the charging infrastructure when on those “occasional “ long trips.
Your thoughts / other suggestions most welcome - I still have time to decide …. as you said, there is a long wait list for the Plug-in.
Thanks, keep the info coming 👍
Tesla
We've owned a RAV4 Prime for over a month now. You won't regret it - terrific riding and handling car and no worries about finding a charger that actually works. Our highway mpg in hybrid mode runs 42 to 50.
I am averaging 79 mgp after 1 year of owning my 2016 Ford Fusion Energi. I mostly use it for short trips to the grocery store. Affect on my electric bill is undetectable since I only shoo about once per week. I love the car.
Great overview. I have a 2016 X5 40e and it works perfectly for us. The battery only has 13 miles on full electric but the distance to work is 12 miles. At work there is a fast charger available (company benefit) to recharge for the trip home. The daily commute is all electric and we can go on long trips where the 4cyl turbo gets about 34mpg. BTW, the battery management system never allows the battery to completely discharge. There is always battery available for power assist when starting from a complete stop. It uses regenerative braking and I maybe an additional way that keeps energy available.
We started out with a 2019 chevy Volt, we loved that car but we were probably one of the few people who actually ran it on full electric mode for most of its life. We had a 220v charger installed and in the summer we could get over 60 miles of all electrric range.
Sadly we lostt that volt in an accident but we now own a Tesla M3 and a Chevy Bolt EUV. Plug in hybrids are great IF you get one with usable range and I would call usable range a minumum of 40 to 50 miles. You have to also consider that range goes down in winter when the batts are cold, so if your electric range is 40 miles you may only get 25 in winter.
You're choice to go full ev makes so much since. If the 30 to 40 mile range was good for most of you're neede that even a shorter range ev would be a good fit.
IF you are motivated to get a PHEV to get a lot of EV miles, you should be aware (A) if it is at all cold outside, the ICE will run to heat the cabin (unless you shut off the air completely), and (B) In terms of longevity, you have to worry that you are probably DEEP-CYCLING the drive battery EVERY DAY. Contrast this with a full EV, where you deep-cycle the battery maybe once a week -- and only if you want to let that happen. As a consequence of heavy use (in hot weather), my 2017 Hyundai Sonata PHEV's drive battery went below 70% capacity after 44,000 miles. The car actually started to throw an error that forced me to pull over - three times in two days. To Hyundai's credit, they replaced the big battery under warranty, but I had to drive a 'gas guzzling' loaner car for 6 MONTHS. This is also a caution about low-volume 'special' vehicles -- Hyundai made a few thousand of these Sonata PHEVs and had stopped selling this car, so replacement parts are scarce. The dealer confided that they actually had to BUY BACK another PHEV owner's car in one case.
I should mention that the cabin heat problem should have a simple solution: Give me a 'VENT' button! Both of my PHEVs have automatic climate control, so it is nearly impossible to tell the car "I just want some outside air". With the lowest thermostat setting being around 65, it doesn't take much to convince the computer that it should be adding heat, and then boom -- the ICE fires up -- even when your battery is full. In medium-cold weather, I keep the air off completely and crack the windows. But cracking the windows has numerous downsides.
Deep-cycling the battery is an issue IF the manufacturer don't give enough thought to it. The first gen Volts were very conservative and used only 65% of the battery capacity, never fully depleting or charging to full. They allowed 76% on the second generation. Volt batteries really last a long time with negligible range loss. The Volt uses heated seats as a less power-intensive way to keep you comfortable. But you can also heat the cabin air if you want.
The rav4 prime always keep 30% of the energy to keep the hybrid system active. So the battery is never empty even if the electric mode is not available anymore. I imagine all PHEV are the same. So no deep discharge every day.
Our 8 year old Ford Fusion Energi displayed a wrench icon in the instrument panel and it would be slow and jerky when going from a full stop. After 8 years the warranty was finished , we had 131 000km on it, after 8 years we could see the battery gave a lower range, much lower. We brought it to the dealership and they replaced the small battery but the problem came back in cold weather. We sold it, we didn't inquire the cost of a new hybrid battery since we didn't need two cars anyway. We drive another PHEV but in the future we will get a regular hybrid, the cost of the PHEV battery replacement is just too uncertain; cost, warranty, performance..
It all depends on use case. Good to plug in overnight (fill up). We are retire and can run around town, go to food store, see doctor, go to restaurant locally. This way we use battery and given electric cost save money. However, for our longer road trips (800 mi.), the gas engine gives us the range ! While I don't have an PHEV I am definitely interested (Mazda CX-70)
Great episode. I run a VW Golf GTE PHEV in Europe and can back up all the observations made. PHEVs really work well if you have a commute that fits comfortably within the battery range and can charge at home. Things get even better if you can use cheaper off-peak electricity pricing and/or your employer offers some subsidized charging at work. Of course, any charging available at work gives you the option of more range as a result. It is a shame more PHEVs are not on the market in the US, and that the price premium is often so high. I bought my Golf used, and paid a very small premium over the equivalent ICE model. The benefit of the GTE is that it has about 200HP with both the ICE and EV elements combined, which mean it is almost as fast as the GTI model
Many of the first PHEVs in Europe were a sort of "compliance special" spec - enough EV range to get around restrictive rules on congestion and emissions but not really that practical to use as a mostly-EV. That is changing and the price is coming down. Toyota had bet big on hybrids (not so sure about PHEVs) so may be placed well as the US buyer goes looking for a new car, but would rather not commit 100% to an EV
Thanks for testing PHEVs. I’m extremely happy with my 2022 Prius Prime, which has an actual EV range of 32-36 miles.
Only save money when you go shopping?
no POINT in testing Hybrids anymore, the BEV is a SUPERIOR car.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is quite competitive with RAV4 prime, cheaper and readily available.
I hope your not pissing people driving 30 on the freeway to get that 30miles 😉
Here in the UK, I have a prius phev Excel 2020 and I get abt 30miles on EV only. The telsa owners here drive slow on the motorway, driving about 60mph on a 70mph. I just quickly overtake them, on my way to work. 😂
For us going with a full EV made the most sense. PHEVs didn't have enough range or frankly enough power in EV only mode, and even in EV only mode they often weren't very efficient either. We use our ID.4 for probably 80% of our miles and our old Sienna for the rest. The total efficiency is still better than the 3 row PHEVs we were looking at, and the overall user experience is vastly superior
If you have the luxury of being able to keep a larger ICE vehicle in reserve for the relatively rare times you need it, a BEV for daily use is perfect. Many people don't have the parking space and/or financial resources to do that.
Have a 2020 Audi Q5 plug in hybrid, love this vehicle. Have a short commute and with 25 thousand miles getting 95 MPG. Have had a couple of long trips and can use gas with no range anxiety. Best of both worlds IMO
Owned a 2017 CT6 Plug-in Hybrid and a 2018 Chev Volt Premier plug-in Hybrid. I loved the Cadillac for the Luxury and the long-range 4-cylinder turbo ( 2.0T. ). When the charge about 35 miles was gone the engine kicked on smoothly. The Chevy Volt offered about 42 electric miles and then the 4-cylinder came on but worked as a generator feeding electric power into the on-board battery. Both were great. After 4 years the Cadillac dealership purchased my car back at 80% of what I paid for it. ( Sweet ) but I missed the car and all the toys. My Chevy Volt was wrecked not too soon afterward and spent 10 weeks in the body shop waiting for parts. When we got it back and took a trip up from Florida to North Carolina. The Car drove nicely but in the back of my mind, the car had been wrecked. When I got back I happened to see a 2020 Chevy BOLT EUV. When down and bought it. Love the car. Has a lot of toys that the Cadillac had but it rides like a rough Buckboard driven over 100 speed bumps. It may have something to do with One Pedal Driving. Because I have a 240v garage Charger which has been considering current Gas Prices. It's good for around town but on long-range travel, we will take our 2020 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E.. The BOLT on the dash screen has a button in the navigation screen that shows where the next charging stations are and that illuminates range anxiety.
In 2022 I began my search for an EV to lease. I was focusing primarily on the Hyundai IONIQ 5 or the Cadillac Lyriq. Long story short, I was unsuccessful in being able to acquire either prior to the end of my leased ICE vehicle. In desperation, I pivoted to getting a BMW 530e PHEV which I custom ordered from Germany. I took delivery in May.
When I saw the topic of your episode, I was excited to see your commentary, but it soon became apparent that you folks were more concerned with topics that weren’t what I was expecting. For most people considering an EV, the principal concern for taking the plunge is 1) range anxiety and 2) the charging network and in my mind, a PHEV is the “Goldilocks” solution. Whether your driving needs are short city/suburban commutes or 50 mile highway excursions, a PHEV will fit your needs. I am retired and my daily commute is usually a round trip of less than 20 miles. In my four months of ownership, I have used about 1/2 of my car’s gasoline tank. For most days I drive on electric only, but on a couple of occasions I made 100 mile highway driving round-trips that forced me to switch to the gas-only mode. The transition was seamless and worked fine … again I’ve yet to have to fill-up with gas. I chose to have a Level 2 charger installed because eventually I will be getting an EV and my charging time for the BMW PHEV went from 12 hours on the 120 charger to 2.5 hours on the Level 2. Now one thing that I’m not happy with on my particular BMW is the weak all-electric mileage for the 530e. The marketing says the car has an all-electric range of 22 miles, but since my car is also AWD, when I charge the car overnight, the EV miles available is usually showing as only 17 miles. Again, okay for my driving needs but disappointing for a vehicle costing $65,000. Now I’m reading that the 2024 model will get a bigger battery thereby providing a boost in all-electric mile to 40 (a big improvement).
The bottom line is that my PHEV works well for me and also helps my environment goals while eliminating my need to plan any charging stops when I go on longer trips. It had been my intention at the end of my lease (Dec of 2025) to go full EV, but if I can find a PHEV that can get decent all-electric miles (40-75 miles), I may consider sticking with a PHEV and continuing to get the best of both worlds.
Mitsubishi outlander phev may fits you
I’ll weigh in here as well and mention a couple of observations. First, living in northern New England, most (all?) PHEVs probably can’t be run in ev mode for a few months of the year unless you don’t care about having heat. My 1981 Toyota Tercel (RIP) didn’t have heat but I was 20 and didn’t care. I do now. Unless it has a heat pump or resistance element (range?), the heat comes from the engine which will run when it’s cold and you turn on the heat. (Are there any with heat pump?) So no ev range at all, but rather runs in hybrid mode or fully gas. Second point is that PHEV still has all the maintenance of a gas car. Third, they are as expensive or more than a decent ev with all the headaches of a gas car and the headaches of a very low range ev with no heat. Some say they are the best of both worlds but they have attributes of the worst of both.
I have excellent heat in my phev Fusion that doesn't have a heat pump. The only negative is poor EV range in winter.
A PHEV has the same maintenance _items_ as a gas car, but if you drive mostly on electricity those need service less often. Not counting wipers, cabin air filters or tires of course, which will wear about the same on any car. Thanks to regenerative braking, the brake pads get _very_ little use.
I live in NH. My 2017 Prius Prime has heat without the engine coming on. It has a heat pump, electrically driven. It also has heated seats, even in the base model. I wish it had a heated steering wheel, but I wasn't going to buy the top trim level with all sorts of stuff I don't need, just to get that.
I take it offroad out west, believe it or not, so an EV made no sense for me in 2017. Probably by the time I replace this in 2035, an EV might work for me. For now, I'd need 2 cars if I got an EV, due to how I travel, where I go and what I do.
I do all my own maintenance, and there have been zero repairs needed so far in 6.5 years and 116K miles. Doing an oil change, is not a big deal to me. An air filter takes 2 minutes. Replacing coolant, trans fluid, and fuel filter every 100K miles isn't a big deal, either. It's been probably 30 years since I've changed spark plugs on a car, they seem to be lifetime items now. Last exhaust/muffler problem was almost 20 years ago on a used car I bought one of my kids.
25:00 It likely delays charging because the grid is cleaner if it is delaying charging and no timed charging was programmed (intentionally or accidentally)
I have a KIA Sorento PHEV and I drove 2600 miles this summer in Hybrid mode and saved all of my Electric range for when I arrived at my destination each evening. Drove EV around each city and then charged up over night. Just have to remember to set the mode when you start up each time. Other than that my engine fires up periodically around town to keep it active but that is minimal. Right now I am at POINT 2 litres per 100Km's for the past 2 months. Great in summer. In winter the engine is on most of the time because it is required to heat the cabin but I fill the gas tank half as often as I did with my ICE 2018 Sorento. So in short, I love it!!
I had to decide which power train to go with in 2019. I had a C-Max with 95k miles. I inherited a 2014 Camery. I also had a 2012 Leaf which I bought cheap as an experiment.
I considered buying a Volt as a compromise. But in the end I decided to sell the C-Max and Camery. Then buy a Bolt. I do not often drive long distance. And maintaining a rarely used gasoline engine is expensive.
I also kept the Leaf. It has been a reliable car. Even with it's limited range. I would not consider a car with a gasoline engine ever again.
You mentioned maintaining a gasoline engine is expensive! 100% agreed! I have three Chevy bolts Love them and life is so much simpler. Of course if I do take a little longer trip really enjoy the new experience of learning how to find chargers! even without Tesla, plug share really is great! have lots of fun. My wife and my son drive two of these. Don’t believe they’ve even used the fast charger yet in about two years but they’ll catch on eventually if they need to. In the meantime, they can rent something if they really need it and it works well.
Yup, full EV like the Bolt EV would just cost $4.10 (112 miles divided by 3 miles per KWH for Bolt EV multiplied by $.11 per KWH).
With respect to Ford’s PHEV It might be better to prompt for return to EV mode after you ease off on the accelerator. Jake at 27:41 you got the conversion backwards for CAD to USD and way overpriced Electricity and Gasoline in USD. 0.15 CAD per KWh is approximately 0.11 USD per KWh and 1.75 CAD per liter is 4.91 USD per US Gallon. Also, gas mileage also drops significantly in cold weather for shorter trips, but not much impact on a 180Km trip as the ICE engine will reach full operating temperature.
Didn't sound right to me, either.
The Volt is simple: if there's power in the battery it defaults to EV mode; deplete it enough and it switches to gas by itself. If I'm on a road trip, I press the Mode button a few times to reach "Hold" which runs the engine and reserves the battery for later. If the car needs some extra oomph on the highway, it just grabs the power from the battery without asking me for permission.
On question 2; Charge the high voltage to about 50 %, I would disconnect 12 volt and bring it inside if you are in a cold weather place. No damage will be done by having it sit. Or you could rent your car out on Turo on a long term lease as long as you don't care about miles getting rung up.
Great info. I currently have a RAV4 hybrid and hoping the technology on the PHEV’s eventually gets to at least 100 miles on a charge and I’ll definitely consider one.
Ofc the technology exists. The price would be much higher due to the bigger battery. And thus no one would buy it
I think the currency conversion went sideways CD/USD is ~0.74, not 1.35 as suggested in the spreadsheet
We goofed! But we have gone back and made changes to the PHEV cost calculator, so all the info is now correct: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AHW1tUQIXa5NMWAKLHxKh1Xoro6tkOHpyV6cDbAu6U8/edit?usp=sharing
@@consumerreports yay y'all are the best! 💯
My last new car, 2013 Volt. Most reliable car I have ever owned. I use hold mode when traveling from Seattle to Spokane. Volt, the original originator.
The engineering is more complicated but driving them in auto mode is easy. We owned two phev, the 2013 Ford Fusion phev and the 2017 Chevy Volt. We really liked the volt. It was sporty in ev only mode with 300 lb ft of torque and jack rabbit starts. Because we drove so many EV miles (55000 miles at 90 percent EV), the gas engine and the brakes were still brand new after 55,.000 miles yet the used car market is unable to consider that. You covered all the bases in the video so I gave it a like.
This was an interesting show and your debates amongst each other are very similar to what is going on in my head. I work from home 90% of the time so I only drive about 300-500 miles a month. But we go on longer trips (300+ miles) round trip about 5 or 6 times a year. Our family is growing so we need a 3 row vehicle and the options for a PHEV or EV are slim, especially since we'd prefer AWD as we live in New England. I've gone in circles trying to figure out what kind of car is best for our needs and our budget.
Sorento PHEV AWD is what we're going with for the exact use case you describe.
Sorry Gents but the spreadsheet calculations (27:41) are fundamentally flawed because the exchange rate was incorrectly applied for both the cost of the Electricity and Gas. The Electricity should have been almost half of what is shown => $0.11 instead of $0.2025 USD. Similarly the Gas per US Gallon => $4.91 instead of $8.94 USD.
I still liked the episode and I am a long term subscriber.
Yes I had to laugh at this gaffe!! Makes u wonder when basic math is lacking. lol
As suggested, availability may be the ultimate deciding factor these days. Good luck finding a Toyota any time soon.
It sounds like you've narrowed it down to two cars for Jayen. The thing I would recommend, is to rent each of these vehicles for at least 1 week. That gives him a chance to take a prolonged, obligation free test drive in each of them, and get some real experience with them. That could help avoid a $40,000 mistake! You can learn a lot more about a car if you live with it for a week, than just a drive around the block at a dealership.
In your comparison of $1.75 per litre Canadian gas prices to u.s. per gallon prices you said it was $9 or close to that per US gallon. I just did this calculation last week as I go across the border quite often to get gas and it's closer to 4.76
I love my 2022 bmw 530e PHEV! In my situation, commuting about 40km a day and my 530e perfectly covers the range only electric. BMW states this vehicle can drive EV only up to 31km, but it can drive longer in the Summer. On the other hand, in the Winter, I am living in Edmonton Canada where one of the coldest major city in the world. The range drops 15 or 16km in one full charge. No idea how newer models handle this issue but I am happy with my vehicle so far.
BMW does a very good job with their PHEVs. I have an 2023 X5 45e, it is amazing. Super quiet and refined too
Great episode! You didn't address my question about tailpipe emissions when a cold engine is suddenly tapped for duty, then shut off again for long enough for the ICE to cool down. Then rinse and repeat. Also I would think that starting an ICE from cold and revving it to, say, 4,000 RPM is not the best thing for that engine. Do these vehicles start the engine when you start your drive to ensure that there's some oil someplace other than the oil pan? I get that this question wasn't really in the spirit of your discussion, but I hope you'll address it at some later date. Thanks again.
Great post!
Yes, cold starts are the most wear and the most pollution operating times for the ICE.
No one wants to talk about this inconvenient truth/fact of the hybrid and the PHEV.
Avery good point
Can’t speak for all manufacturers but this not an issue with RAV4 Prime. Toyota has lots of programming to keep both ICE and traction battery happy. That’s why it regulates when ICE automatically comes on
This is part of the complexity of hybrids, and why I would recommend Tesla to most people instead.
Good review. One part I'm not sure I understand though. The video often discussed not wanting to deal with the complication of worrying about charging on a road trip for an EV. I wonder when and where they tried. I just rented a Tesla Y long range and in 2 weeks drove over 7,000 kms around western North America while visiting national parks... There was nothing complicated about charging, plug destination in Nav, stop where it tells you to charge, plug in car (which is easier than filling a car with gas... Which is already easy), then grab a coffee or ice cream and before you're done the car is ready to start driving again...
I was a bit surprised at this discussion as it did not cover a number of factors. Here are some of the thoughts I felt they should have covered:
1. Will you have more than 1 vehicle in the household? If you have more than 1 vehicle, then the other can be tailored to how that vehicle is used (the case for an EV might go up if this is the intown/commuter vehicle). If you have only 1 vehicle, the PHEV can make sense depending on the spec abilities of the vehicle.
2. I have found the PHEV electric motor is sized to be able to run the car so it has more HP/torque than a hybrid (only) electric motor. In the hybrid case. the electric motor is more of an assist capability. It can only be operated in just EV mode at low speeds like moving slowly in a parking lot.
3. If you only have 1 vehicle, the PHEV can let you operate in the most efficient mode if you are in city driving (EV mode) or if on the highway (ICE mode). An ICE drive train is working the hardest in city stop/go and idling driving and if you don't go too far, the ICE warmup period can be a factor affecting efficiency and wear and tear on the ICE components. If you can operate in just the EV mode to commute in city traffic, there will be less wear and tear on the ICE/transmission components. Your ICE drivetrain might last 300-400K miles. When the time comes t replace the EV battery, in the PHEV, it is much smaller, so the cost is MUCH lower.
For our household, we have an ICE F150 for the yardwork and an EV (Bolt EUV) for the intown stuff. For the long trips, it's the hybrid (ES300H). Only the EUV is a new vehicle. All others are used. When they make a PHEV pickup, we will buy one.
One thing I noticed that people often make a mistake on is the effect of cold. Yes you lose range on electric in cold. But that is also true of gas too. I never realized that until I had gotten a Prius and I could watch on the screen my milage. In winter I got a lot less efficiency on the Prius. Bottom line is that a gas vehicle will have roughly a similar percentage loss in efficiency as the battery will in an EV, or PHEV.
Except it's much easier to get more gas when you're on trips.
I would love to see cold weather testing done on all of these electric vehicles. Come on up to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in February and test the battery in the cold.
Even the cold I’m sure you drive less than 250 miles per day.
I have a Toyota RAV4 Prime and live in Calgary, Canada. I lose approximately 40% of electric range in winter months.
EVs are very popular in Norway. I think they also have cold weather.
Yeah, it's not really new info or a secret, electric vehicles do lose 40-50% range in very cold weather...
I drive a Hyundai Ioniq (original, not the 5 or 6) PHEV and generally lose about 20% of the EV only range in the winter. The main issue mine has is that it still relies on the engine to run for heat (but not AC) which means to prepare the cabin when it's minus 20 out there it needs to sit and idle. I really wish it had a resistance heater that could run off the AC for a preheat or a cold climate heat pump, which would be best, since the AC system would just have to be set up to run backwards for that to work.
My car has an exit vent from the cabin which makes the air flow over the battery, so once the cabin warms it also warms the battery which helps when it can cycle the engine off to not lose so much of the battery capacity.
If your in ice mode can u charge w regen braking?
I just bought a 2024 Sportage X-Line Prestige PHEV. I was spending $60 a week in gas on my 2012 Odyssey for commuting and local errands. I just crunched the numbers for my first month of the Sportage and I'm right around $110 in gas and electricity combined and that included a day trip to the mountains. Most of it was electricity because my commute is 17 miles one way so 34 round trip and that is EXACTLY what the Sportage is rated for on a charge. I can charge at work for $.25kwh so a full charge (from 20%) is about $3.30 give or take a dime. I work four days a week so I'm spending under $15 in electricity a week on my commute. The PHEV was made for me in that respect. The gas otor kicks if I idle too long, need extra power or if I use the heater because the Sportage does not have a heat pump like the RAV4.
PHEV are great stop gap vehicles before EV charging is more readily available for people who make a few short city trips (within EV range) a day and occasionally some long distance driving. When the price premium for a PHEV over the gas only is within 2K like the 2023 X5 then it's worth it (BMW jacked up the 2024 prices so it's now a $10K difference). But if it's $10K like the Outlander that has a 38 mile EV range, it's going to take a long time to make back that difference. Also, the extra 900lbs of a PHEV will wear out consumables like brakes and tires faster
We had 2 PHEV's and as far as tire and break wear, I didn't feel it needed replacement more often. I also choose the best quality in terms of brakes. I think that since we drive in relaxed way, we dont drive in a sporty manner, the tires and breaks lasted longer.
If the PHEV has a “one pedal driving” mode, to use the electric motors for braking (and recouping some of the charge used, then the brakes are used far less often, which should at least offset the brake wear of it being a heavier vehicle.
Super important to cover the PHEV's -- so, thanks. I would emphasize that one of the calculations consumers face in many parts of the US is that the charging infrastructure is not only not there, but in many locales, not even on the radar, even in affluent neighborhoods. (I.e., we're not living in California). I don't own either an EV or a PHEV, but as an aggressive shopper, I've followed the commentary from those who do, but there are numerous growing pains which make predicting realistic EV distances difficult: weather extremes (heaters, AC), weather conditions, steep changes in elevation, route changes, cargo size (including passenger count). These are all factors the EV makers are working to help with, but that is a relatively slow, year-by-year journey with new model updates. What the PHEV offers is the opportunity to take a fully evidence-based look at one's own distance and driving practices. That means collecting data over six months or so and studying it carefully. In my area, I can't depend on in-route charging, so a "local" trip must be a round trip, including delays and other contingencies. If there's a lot of local driving, that should rule out a traditional hybrid. To save the planet, we have to get to zero, not just improve gas mileage. But if every fifth or six trip is out of range, then an EV won't cut it -- yet. Also, and less important, some of the limitations noted in this round table have been addressed by some PHEV models out there -- but I'm sure that will be clearer as CR works through additional testing. Some good TH-cam reviews CR has probably already seen: SavageGeese / Prius Prime, & Alex / EV Buyers on the Mazda CX-90; the ladder addresses the clumsy switch between EV and hybrid mode). Lastly, it's worth emphasizing PHEV overall problems: too few models to choose from, the trend toward bigger, heavier vehicles, persistent availability problems, dealer markups (especially for the Rav4 Prime) and of course the overall high price tag. Thanks for covering this market segment; I'll be viewing all of them.
We found EV charging to be easier than fueling our Tacoma. Mostly we charge at home. On road trips we prefer the EV for its comfort, low operating cost and zero tail pipe emissions. We’ve always been able to find a working charger. There are still some places with minimal charging options but western Colorado is pretty well covered.
Hybrids , have been DECLINE since 2017 w/ introduction of the BOLT.
Cars are not the main culprit in co2 emissions, industry emissions is the main cause. Vehicles are a small fraction
Just a 4 year waitlist for a rav 4 prime in western Canada. Arguably one of the smartest vehicles on the market. Real hard to get your hands on.
Hey CR! Great talk, i think you're running your escape with old firmware? I recently bought a phev escape, and my gage cluster looks different and i do not have to hit 'okay' for the vehicle to add gas engine for more power. In EV auto, it always uses electric power unless i want more power. if i press the padel hard, it automatically adds on gas motor power. In EV only, when i want more power, i press the gas padel padel to a point and press again to add gas motor power. I would check your firmware because you may also be missing out on other new or more polished features.
We’ve had a RAV4 Prime for over 2.5 years, LOVE it, no regrets. PHEV is better than EV here in Canada especially in winter.
Having lived with it that long, I’d love to hear your average electric-only range. If your typical drives exercise it in that way, of course.
Sold mine after 30 months. Good car but lack of Ev range was frustrating at least once a week and cold climate increase gas consumption because battery get too cold or the heat pump stop working to heat the car when it's -8 celcius.
Can't comment on Canada, but here in Maryland my RAV4 Prime is getting 52 miles of suburban range in summer, dropping to 47 in winter (parked & charged in garage).
That’s the issue with expectations on PHEVs where it should be accepted that you’ll have to refuel from time to time and go on pure EV at least a third of the time but it solves issue of range anxiety vs BEVs. Some folks who may have bought PHEVs thought they can use them on pure EV most of the time eliminating the need for refuelling which dampens their false expectations! I’d say it all depends on your need!
SAME we love our RAV4 PRIME!!!!
PHEVs are great for people who can charge at home and can find a PHEV that covers their daily commute in EV-only.
Also, PHEVs are not that complicated - the biggest complication is comparing them to each other because there are so many different ways to implement it and different EV ranges. But once you choose one, it is just a car that you usually plug in and can also run on gas.
We had 2 PHEV's and they are fun to drive , however battery degradation gave me pause after 8 years; cost replacement , warranty etc. Also they are heavier and our parking space started to mold and compact under where the wheels rest. The parking space will have to be redone eventually. I see the future of transportation in public transport and electric bikes, especially in urban areas. Working at home and shopping online showed us we could use our cars less.
In 12 months and 9400 miles of driving a 2023 Kia Niro PHEV, we are at 124 miles per gallon. Our daily errands are usually less than 40 miles; no gasoline used at all. Several times a month, we go on longer trips and mileage drops into the low 50's. No range anxiety, no costly 220v line at home either.
Do all the PHEVs support charging only at specific times in the day?
Based upon the conversation the solution is for manufacturers of PHEV is to do the following: The power train should be pure EV with a mid size battery and an onboard ICE generator purely only activated to replenish the battery pack on longer drives. A small gas tank onboard to fuel the ICE generator to recharge the vehicles battery. The vehicle branded as “ReCharge - EV” could be the nomenclature to label these types of powertrain in these PHEV vehicles. I think consumers will find this type of technology will be very acceptable. The ICE component is only employed on a as needed basis. CR Readers let me know what you think?
Sounds like a BMW i3 to me. The REX version.
Many years ago, the BMW i3 REX range extender model had exactly this solution. At the time, a very good idea and much simpler (powertrain & control-wise) vs true hybrid system, though the bigger-than-PHEV-but-not-pure-BEV battery still costs more at the time... it was an excellent tradeoff vs a much bigger/heavier/expensive long-range battery though.
However, given the much more widespread availability of BEV fastchargers now , especially since all makes are jumping onto Tesla's reliable and extensive supercharger network next year... roadtrips in EVs are not really an issue, except for some areas not covered yet, or special cases like towing w/ a pickup etc.
PHEVs are a complicated middle solution that... will soon not be necessary, especially as the charging network grows, and true BEVs continue to get cheaper. They are already near or at price-parity with comparable high-trim gas cars, especially hybrid ones (Tesla Model3 RWD 272miles for $39k, under $32k after tax credit? That is CHEAPER than a high end Camry.)
The Volt debuted in 2007. Other people have been having this discussion for about 15 years.
Not to confuse you with facts, but the Volt did not begin production until the 2011 models. I enjoyed mine immensely.
@@ianjay5301 The production design model was officially unveiled in 2008, the concept car in 2007. The parameters for battery and engine/generator had already been argued out inside GM by then.
I work from home, my wife is a stay at home mom. We have a 2022 XC90 PHEV and a 2006 Pontiac Vibe. The XC90 does most of our daily driving on battery (~35 mi summer, ~26 mi winter), but also let's us drive 500+ miles in a day on road trips without worrying about charging (along the way or when we get there). We drove it 12k mi the first year and got gas 11 times. We pretty much only put gas in it on road trips. The Vibe only gets driven when we need two cars, which is less than 2k mi/yr, and why I don't feel bad about it not being electric (plus it gets good MPG).
Great episode.
1. Is there an easy way to learn the total number if recharge cycles a for-sale PHEV has done in its lifetime?
2. In one-pedal slowing down, will you be testing and explaining when does the brake lights turn on even tho the brake pedal is not being depressed?
My 10y old phev with 170k is still like new, personally I wouldn't worry about cycles
Thanks. Never had a PHEV. Read 5000 recharge cycles but also read 10,000 recharges over 30 years. In my 70s, so sounds like no worries no matter which.