" " "My name is mekkah" incorrect, Mekkah is just a nickname." Incorrect. Mekkah has 3Ks" " Incorrect, Mekkah actually has 2Ks, but the channel's name has to be 3Ks because it is the same as a certain muslim stuff
but mekkah, don't you know that killing a prepromote on their join map actually transfers their exp to your most underleveled unit? truly skilled players kill seth in the prologue to give eirika a guaranteed 20/20
I also don't think Seth can even die on that map unless you remove all his items move off the forest tile and end your turn 10 times and hope he gets hit every turn.
Haha, Fe 6 Bartre is a unit I enjoy using. Why? 22 BASE ATTACK, THAT'S WHY! He literally explodes anything he hits when he joins. Sure, his skill might make it a bit difficult to hit things every now and then, but same goes with everyone else in Fire Emblem 6, and hell, if your worried about his 10 speed, remember what Bartre said himself to Gonzales; if you can kill them in one hit, it doesn't matter XD
He actually is a pretty good unit. He does the same damage with an iron bow at base as Klein does at base with a silver bow. He’s probably the best wyvern counter in the game and as someone who’s made him a muligir user he’s certainly the best bow user in 6.
I think "exp stealing" is only ever a thing when you brain-dead send your "jaegan" down the middle of every map soloing everything until no longer capable (and then the rest of the team is trash). I say this as someone who first started Fire Emblem (FE 7 specifically) doing so, literally letting Marcus do everything for the first several levels until my lower level units had fallen behind the experience curve. I think it is worth being just be a little more clear that while pre-promotes are great tools, they have to be used with a grain of salt.
I think he sorta covered that in the video (in the example where he said Seth isn't "stealing" any experience *as long as he's not taking any more kills than Franz would*).
There's absolutely nothing wrong with your lower level units falling behind because FE7 gives you so many strong prepromotes along the way. FE7 Marcus is one of the most broken Jagens out there because his bases are good enough for him to be serviceable until the lategame.
@@picklejuice7041 Its not "wrong" per say to let those units fall behind, but the game is significantly easier in the later stages with a little bit of minimal effort into the lower level units with good growths and bases.
@@picklejuice7041 Well there are also a couple of good low level growth units that are definitely worth raising. Raven, Canas, Sain, Kent, Lowen, Heath, Florina etc. You can get by FE7 without some(or all of these), but its definitely worth it to train some(or all) of the people I just mentioned since their growths(and maybe bases) do allow them to be useful
Playing through Shadows of Valentia, I used all of my characters so equally that by the 3rd act nobody was even close to their final promotion (aside from Celica and Alm, who just get it from plot). It wasn't until around that dragon ambush that Kliff finally became a dread fighter, my first 3rd promotion near the last 3 battles of the game. I suppose it is a skill in and of itself to spread out XP so much that nobody benefits though.
Man I’m super behind xp wise than you were, I just finished act 4 and I just got Kliff to Dread, and he’s my first early game unit to be at the highest class
Mekkah this new style of pitfall videos is veeeery good, I appreciate the extra effort you are putting into these. I thought I understood the whole exp distribution thing but this video cleared things up for me even more. Keep up the good work Mekkah
Considering that he's causing no damage at all and that his experience gain is pitifull when he does cause damage, no experience is actually lost. Mind you, using Marcus is recommended for the early parts of HHM. As long as he doesn't achieve any lv beyond 5 until you bench him at chapter 21, then it's okay to use him somewhat.
@@jellyunicorn8347 Yeah, they're really bad about that... XD Even so, it's clear that they know what they're talking about in their runs. Plus, they're pretty good about answering questions in the comments.
I remember when looking on gamefaqs for how to recruit shinon during my first playthrough of fe9 I saw some guy saying that the exp for killing him would be more valuable to them than having shinon join their army
Considering recruiting him requires Ike, a freshly promoted unit, to get the kill EXP.... that logic just doesn't hold. He "dies" and you get EXP either way.
I feel like that argument barely holds water, because Ike is one of six units who can kill the final boss, and is on of only three who can bring down his first form on Hard, being the best option if trained due to how good Aether or Wrath/Resolve are. BK is an optional boss, so I won't count him as necessary, but I would argue that exp to Ike is NEVER wasted. That being said, you never said you agreed with him, so I'm not arguing against you or anything. That's just a weird argument they made. Shinon with a +Hit forged Steel Bow or the Brave Bow can be instrumental in taking down Naesala on Hard, which is literally the chapter afterwards. He's a viable boss counter that you can get for the effort of deploying Rolf(who can be untrained) on a map that is easily taken care of with a few trained units, and requires a fairly good unit, Ike, to get the kill.
I think another important point to make is about the exp rubber band effect in Fire Emblem and other RPGs. Because lower level units receive more exp, it often doesn't matter in the long run whether you min-max that extra level early on. Because a min-maxed unit will be at a higher level, they'll receive less exp per kill for the rest of the game, making the exp gain you worked for early on completely moot. In other words, the min-maxed unit's early game self is exp-stealing from it's future self.
just sharing this but one time years ago i was live streaming fire emblem and this guy joins and loses his mind because i let my premote get one kill on a unit threatening a weaker one, he told me that i would have dodged it, but dodge is unreliable, i told him to not backseat and that i know what im doing but he left calling me bad, for real idk why people hate premotes they exsist to make your life easier aginst the early game monsters
Boiling a pot of warm water takes less energy and takes a shorter amount of time than boiling a pot of cold water, even if heat transfers faster the more disparate the temperatures are (touched in thermodynamics classes that use differential equations), the cold water still has to put in the all that energy to raise its temperature to get to where the hot water starts at before it start putting in the energy that the hot water could from the beginning. Therefore, if you have the choice of leveling up either hot water or cold water, you're stealing exp from the party by choosing cold water.
Except that "hot" water is lukewarm and you can't cook your spaghetti al dente because the cold water sucks shit. The cold water on the other hand can get pretty easily to the boiling point and make me the perfect pasta
Hi Mekkah, I like your pitfalls videos a lot. Please keep making them. I actually started a 0% growth run recently on FE7. Not because I wanted a challenge (I played on normal difficulty), but because I wanted something different. And it really is different! It makes you think in new ways while playing. I appreciate that you recommend trying this out in the video and after playing for a while I even get a better understanding of what your point is in this video.
From a purely practical level i agree with your argument on jegans, however on a personal level I use prepromotes rarely to not at all. The main reason is they just arn't fun to me, i find it boring using a character that can wipe fields easily without any work on my part. Its like "why am i even here if they are already perfectly competent." I think the reason a lot of people try to argue about exp stealing is they want to have a concrete reason to defend they way they prefer to play. The way I see it you don't need a built in reason to play the way you want with the units you want........except for people who like phoenix mode, fuck those people.
On other words, "I suck at strategy"-mode. At least in Final Fantasy Tactics you still have to get them up yourself and there's a possibility for permadeath. Good middle-ground between permadeath and Awakening's Casual Mode for me to get used to the genre and prepare for the older FE games. Probably going to try out Gaiden first, black sheeps tend to intrigue me.
I think another thing is that growth units seem a lot better when you only play on lower difficulties. Fe7 growth units are absurd on normal because they will still gain levels really fast even when killing low level enemies making reaching level 20 before promotion easy and level 20/1 unit seem a lot better then many prepromotes. However on hard you get massive exp decay after being 5 levels higher meaning that on hard getting to 20 before promotions is not feasible unless you want to promote near end game as you really don't get as many levels. On hard it is better to actually limit the number of growth units used as using too many means you will just have a army of weaklings. Preepromotes actually help growth units since they help bolster your combat power without investment allowing me to invest more in my other units since Marcus at base is already good enough to easily handle 2/3 of the game so I can use him as needed instead of going out my way to feed him.
This is very well done. In terms of practicality, using pre-promotes like Seth is a no brainer, but in terms of fun a lot people prefer using exclusively shit units that can be good later. Thats who will be screeching at this vid.
It’s really interesting rewatching this after coming off of FE Engage. Vander, FE Engage’s Jagen, is an amazing unit even as a Jagen, especially when you compare him to the twins starting out, and they tend to be pretty weak starting out in their canon classes. Vander is a godsend in front lining early on with his high defense and the lack of powerful mages or staff users early game.
I like prepromotes mostly for utility and not for combat power, although there's something satisfying about sending Marcus on his own to assassinate a few problem enemy units
I'd honestly debate that exp stealing should be used for ests and trainees, not for jeigans( and certaintly not oifeys). You are actually wasting all of your late game exp.
Jelly Unicorn That's true, but giving them exp really accomplishes almost nothing. It's not going to make the game impossible or even hard obviously, but it still is technically more of a waste than giving it to a jeigan.
That's not entirely true, outside of FE1 Est gives you the opportunity to triangle attack the shit out of Camus so you can get the Gradivus undamaged. You still don't need to give her exp for that, but I just wanted to mention that this is a nice possibility to use her.
I got a lot more comfortable with using Jagens to help out early once I realized that sometimes it's not really taking any exp at all if a large swarm of enemies would have just killed any other unit I put near them. If a unit does need to be fed a bit of exp I can do it in less dense areas.
Cool video, and it's gotten me curious about 0% growth runs, which up until this point I have completely disregarded (what kind of person would hack a game just to make it artificially harder on themselves?!?). However, I can't help but feel your conclusion to the true premise that Fire Emblem generally front-loads its difficulty to be itself a little misleading. If you eat up the entirety of early maps with your Jagen on the enemy phase, then you run the very real risk of the units that you would want to groom for mid-late game falling behind even the slow enemy unit progression, effectively not making the game any easier at all. Discretion is advised.
Also there is way more than enough exp for everyone by the time you reach end game as everyone will most likely be promoted so missing a few kills with a growth unit doesn't matter.
In my first playthrough of a fire emblem game (fe7) i gave all the EXP and statboosters to eliwood. I maxed him out in the dragonsgate, thinking he will get promoted when meeting his father. Boy was I wrong.
I think most people don't want jagens that one round every earlygame enemy because they want to have the jagen chip in enough damage so that every other party member is able to finish it off and get kill XP. Jagens in the normal mode in most fire emblem games seem to one round a lot of enemies so that other units can't get kill XP, thus meaning it's very difficult to control this pie chart example.
Dude the first time I played Ruby back in high school, there was a Feebas on my team right until endgame because I had no idea how to evolve the thing. He was the Jeigan that could!
The thing with using prepromotes a lot is them accidentally dying due to a dumb mistake or some random bullshit and thus being left with underdeveloped characters to work with.
Fortunately you can use prepromotes alongside unpromoted units. Or use multiple prepromotes. Or reset if something very unlikely happens. Which could also happen to units that are not prepromotes.
If he reaches certain stat thresholds in his first few levels, he's usable all of the dawn brigade chapters, imo. The early speed and strength is make or break. I agree to bench him when Zihark/Jill join otherwise
For prepromotes I usually will use a marcus type to soften up enemies and then feed the kills to maybe 5-6 babby units I think prepromotes "stealing" exp is only a problem if you use too many characters to begin with. I think in the GBA games a team should be maybe 6-8 people for a regular fun run and maybe 3-4 for a minmaxed optimized run
My philosophy is i'll use the characters I like the most, but if it's a jeigan, GENERALLY I will take his weapons away and use him as a meatshield, then enemy units may crowd around them. After that, I'll have them rescue a unit that's more ahead than the others (usually my lords for some reason) and that way they don't double, with an iron sword they'll leave units low enough that almost anyone can finish 'em off also I'm one of those terrible people who only 20/20, i'm sorry, the though of promoting a unit at level 19 instead of 20, and missing out on my very useful 1 health 1 luck is unbearable to me. I know you could easily go without, and probably even promo at 10 and still be MORE than fine, I just am unable to do it it doesn't help that my favourite units are peg knights, I play really stupidly aggro and i always have them in deep, so maxing them is usually very rewarding. that said I have used fe9's Titania because that was my first fire emblem game, and to this day she's one of my favourite units. I always bench Oscar for her and she doesn't really struggle til around chapter 15ish in my experience, on hard that is
@@kentknightofcaelin4537 They are but I'm really weird, I've never liked cavalry even in fe9 where they're BROKEN. I would probably take him if I had one more slot. I often do a lot of rescue dropping and stuff which is why pegasus knights are my jam
Lol I had no idea that exp stealing was a thing. I started with Shadow Dragon and although the guides said not to use Jagen, his bases are too good for early-mid game to not use. Also keep up the good work Mekkah! The quality of the content has gotten so much better now! 👍 Honestly wouldn't mind some pitfall re-visits! ^^
While I was thinking: "Urgh, why does he have to be such a bad prepromote?" when I played SD for the first time. Guess I've got too spoiled from using FE7 Marcus, Seth and Titania (or just stop beginning games with Hard 4 mode).
Well, he's a bad prepromote. Since his stats are about the same as a lv 5 Cavalier. He falls off very quickly. He has his uses, but he's not worth mentioning.
Just for reference - the only games with 0% growths being unbeatable are: - Awakening on any difficult above Hard - Path of Radiance Maniac Mode (unconfirmed)
POR maniac has a 60 hp Ashnard who heals 6 per turn: At 0 growths you have 3 units who can theoretically damage him Ike (18+5+3) vs 35 defense, dealing 8 assuming Aether procs. Ashnard heals 6 per turn, meaning Ike’s net DPT is 2.0. This clearly isn’t good enough since Ashnard hits him back for more than his base HP, but may be possible with RNG abuse. Dragon (Ena), 2 net damage, far too low. Ashnard outheals ENAs DPT Tibarn (3 DPT) Gifts (15 if I did the math right) In short Ashnard vs gifca may be doable, so it’s hard to rule out. With sufficient RNG abuse it may be possible although unlikely
Hey experience stealing was redone and you clarified your definition of stealing (Though you are still comparing level up pace of prepromotes and unpromotes as if the experience difference isn't there like you did with your Marcus v Kent graph) And you're being a whole lot... idk, nicer? to your opposition? Maybe too nice? But I still believe you AGREE with the actual experience stealing argument. From how I see it, experience stealing doesn't invalidate a prepromote or 20-lord, it just provides a reason to use them less. Which you yourself use to praise them! You've shown how Seth fills the role of Franz while being able to give up kills to Vanessa and the like. But isn't the idea of using a jeigan less so other units can train more without forfeiting a deployment slot the idea behind exp-stealing? ... Wait there are people who just don't deploy them Why If you're not using neimi or seth long-term just bring Seth OK I didn't realize that there were people actually calling them bad units I still wouldn't put old marcus and frederick on the same tier as Ares, Raven, Othin, and whatnot But the only jeigans below a solid B plus are Gunter (who cares) and Mystery of the Emblem Jeigan (not new mystery, haven't played shadow dragon) My whole problem was that you were arguing against something that people weren't saying Little did I realize they WERE Still I don't think I'd call it a "common misconception"
"(Though you are still comparing level up pace of prepromotes and unpromotes as if the experience difference isn't there like you did with your Marcus v Kent graph)" I actually made sure that part was 100% correct now. Franz's line rises a lot more quickly than Seth. Look more closely at the chart and the comments if you think otherwise. "I still believe you AGREE with the actual experience stealing argument. From how I see it, experience stealing doesn't invalidate a prepromote or 20-lord, it just provides a reason to use them less. Which you yourself use to praise them! You've shown how Seth fills the role of Franz while being able to give up kills to Vanessa and the like. I actually think every unit steals EXP, especially growth units. If you choose not to use Franz you'll have more EXP for your other units. Every unit you use has an opportunity cost. In Seth's case though you have the choice not to do so, while in Franz's you don't. That's part of what makes Seth so good. "But isn't the idea of using a jeigan less so other units can train more without forfeiting a deployment slot the idea behind exp-stealing?"" I personally use my jeigans a whole lot more because their combat is so good, and I don't get a whole lot out of spending that EXP on a unit like Gilliam or Joshua instead. As I said later in the video, it's a giant waste not to put their amazing stats not to good use.
Mekkkah Mekkkah "Performance" is still a very vague y-axis stat. How is it measured, and why is Franz a 10 where seth is a 100? If Seth is a 100, Franz is well above a "10 performance" right off the bat solely because of his cavalier class. And if all units steal exp, to whom does it belong? If all units are stealing exp from an exp RANK, it should be low-level units that steal the least and promotes that steal the most, right? If growth units are stealing exp from base units, why did you make the point about high base units needing less exp and being able to give exp to growth units? I'm against using early game jeigans because I just think it's boring. I certainly don't deny that they are GOOD in early game. But I REALLY don't understand your point on growth units stealing exp. I agree that fire emblem is more than possible without having a capped Nino for the last three chapters or giving Corple Tornado. From what I hear, part of what makes jeigans useful is their ability to give other units exp, so you end the game with a moderately stronger Seth slightly behind a 15/5 Franz while Vanessa and friends split the levels that would have gone to Franz otherwise. And I agree with that! But shouldn't the argument be "too many growth units splits the exp too thin" and not "growth units steal more exp?" Because in the case of Franz v seth, Franz is stealing kills... from other growths. How can growths steal exp if that exp was already going to growths? Why am I even here I did fe7 ranked and it's not like the seth thing matters cause fe8 doesn't HAVE ranks
I do not disagree on the exp distribution stuff, and use Seth because he is both mechanically useful and also one of my favorite characters in that game in general by personality. Honestly though, I have just never used Marcus. Honestly, I should. Having looked at the wiki his growths are not the abysmal numbers I had always heard they are, so using him at least some should not be the issue I thought it was when I first went through Lyn's game.
You mean to tell me someone beat Lunatic Conquest with 0% growths? *sees description labels as unfinished* I really just want to see how he gets past ch25 and Endgame. I actually got my best hands-on experience of prepromotes in playing, of all things, the 0 bases hack of FE7. In it, I promoted Kent around level 15 in Lyn’s mode, and left Sain to hit level cap (30 in this hack, though exp gain was drastically increased). Kent was sturdier, pulled his weight more, and generally was reliable through the most difficult parts of HHM, at least after he joined up. Later on, of course my other units surpassed him, but even though he couldn’t do much late game he still was a useable unit. I also could use my experience with Matthew in the early chapters of HHM. He basically was my emergency plan for doing what nobody else physically could, since I had deliberately fed him exp in Lyn mode to let him Jagen for the no-stat Hector. By the time the first Valor arc was winding down Matthew’s days of combat mastery were over, but he let me actually beat these chapters which would be effectively impossible without him, so he was definitely the mvp of my run.
What about in echoes/gaiden? Most characters dont get enough stat bonuses from promoting and it only raises units to the BASE stats of the new class. Rounding them out with a couple of levels past promotion has proven to be very useful for increasing stats that arent boosted by promotion. Prepromotes arent as much of a topic since there are 3 tiers for them anyway
Its worth noting that FE4/6 0% growths involved RNG abuse. I'm pretty sure FE6 only had that one super unreliable bosskill on Henning, but FE4 0% growth strats are absolutely ridiculous and involved long arena RNG abuse.
True, but again that was mostly because he was LTCing. He could've taken a slower and more reliable approach. FE4 is actually one of the two games I've beaten on 0% growths and it wasn't all that bad.
When playing an Ironman. Even if we went with the wasted EXP mentality. A Jagen killing a unit to save your Est's life. Would still save a LOT of exp when youthink of it. The ammount of exp saved is the total your Est has earned - 35.
@Mekkkah *There is a logical error in the explanation of "EXP stealing".* The argument goes as follows: Claim in the video: 1. If all EXP were split between 6 characters, each will gain 1/6 of the total EXP. 2. Seth doesn't grow much, if any at all. Result > - Each of 5 non-prepromoted unit + 1/6 total EXP of levels/stats, +1 unit of Seth. Counter 1: 1. If we restrict Seth completely, and train 5 characters instead of 6, each will gain 1/5 of the total EXP. 2. Seth doesn't grow. 3. Franz doesn't grow. 4. But we can re-include Seth after each unit has received 1/5 of the total EXP. Result > - Each of 5 non-prepromoted unit + 1/5 total EXP of levels/stats, +1 unit of Seth. Counter 2: 1. If we restrict Seth completely, and train 6 characters including Franz, each will gain 1/6 of the total EXP. 2. Seth doesn't grow. 3. Franz grow to Seth's equivalent. Result > - Each of 6 non-prepromoted unit + 1/6 total EXP of levels/stats, +2 units of Seth (Franz's equivalence). Counter 2 has been addressed in the video, but it was heavily constrained as "given you can only choose 6, and all the other 5 are fixed, and you can only choose either Franz or Seth, it makes no difference." Which is very much a false dichotomy/constructed edge-case, as in no chapter of the game that I can recall, that you were forced to have only 6 characters, and one of it must be either Franz or Seth, or any of such equivalent cases. An oversimplified TL;DR explanation: - If you give 1/6 EXP given to Seth, you have 1x Level 4 Seth and 1x Level 1 Franz. - If you give 1/6 EXP given the Franz, now you have 2x Level 1 Seths. Which has more combined power? 2x promoted units, or 1x promoted unit with slight level up + 1x base-fodder? I'm in no way saying this is a bad video, but the logic of "EXP stealing" is JUSTIFIED, and can only be nullified (not even improved by alternatives) in edge cases such as one provided in the video. In most unconstrained cases, "EXP stealing" is still mathematically bad in 95% of the time. P.S. I'm the 666th like :D
Your math "works out" but the conclusion you (and many others) are attaching is that Seth is somehow a worse character for it. The point of using exactly 6 units with different EXP distributions is to show that including Seth in your army is not hurting the EXP gain of the other five. In fact, it can potentially help them if he donates some of his fair share. You can repeat the excercise with 7, 8, 9 or 9000 units and the point remains the same. The reason I'm making one choose between Seth and Franz is that a lot of people (unfortunately) think class-by-class and only want to compare a Paladin to another potential Paladin. By using Franz as the example I'm demonstrating what the difference is between being prepromoted and not prepromoted. Again, you can repeat the same thing but put a different unpromoted character in Franz's place. Comparing a team of 6 units + Seth to a team of 5 units + Seth is not only an unfair comparison (the 5 unit team could just add a unit as well), but it also misses the point: both of these teams have Seth, and this is only possible because Seth is a prepromoted god that can be inserted into a team later in the game without a drop of EXP. And this doesn't address that when Seth is used unrestricted he is really, really, really good.
@Mekkah Seth is God-tier character; from base stats, to class advantage, to stats growth, to weapon mastery, to combat relevance, to chapter involvement, etc, basically in every sense of the game, Seth is incredibly useful. To underrate Seth is ignorant at best, and I do not agree on any premise that Seth is bad unit to use, except some would say he is too OP. With that said, the 'EXP thief" argument still stands, that giving the EXP from Seth to another unit, gains you one more powerful unit, while allowing you to keep Seth as he was. It's not "comparing 5 units + 1 Seth, to 6 units + 1 Seth"; but rather "having 5 unit without Seth at first, leads to 6 units + Seth in the end". The results are mathematically in favour of doing without Seth, unless your Seth has miraculous growth and your "Seth substitute" got RNG stomped. This is essentially an "systems optimisation" problem, which is just another Calculus problem. It is not that "Seth will destroy your progress if you use him", it is just that "Using Seth is not the most optimal solution to your maximisation problem". Using Seth is like getting 8/10, it is not bad but 9/10 is better. My key argument was that you have made some errors in your calculations, that has head to equating 8/10 to be as good as 9/10, which is not correct in the mathematical sense. And yes you are right that even if you have made a mathematical error, it doesn't constitute as evidence that using Seth is "literally the doom", which is what lot of people having been constantly harping about but has had little statistical evidence to back up said naggings. Overall I'm pretty neutral about the whole "EXP thief" thing (except when it comes to the math), during a casual play I'll just use Seth whenever I see fit/convenient, I'm not too bothered about the "potential +1 Skill if I had let Eirika got the kill", since it really doesn't contribute to neither the overall progress of the game, nor my overall enjoyment of the game. In fact, over-optimisation sucks the fun out of the game, making it as if I'm doing some math homework that no one has assigned, in place of hours of fun that I could have enjoyed if I'm not so anal about perfection. In a troll playthrough, I would just Arena-abuse Seth and Lute, and sweep the game LOL XD
Wouldn't the entire early game be waaay easier though if you just used Seth instead of benching him for any other prepromote to grow? It was already argued that EXP wasn't as important as many people deem it to be, which is why EXP stealing/distribution is a pitfall. I am by no means a smart person, maybe I just kicked myself in the head for replying, but sacrificing Seth for better later chapters doesn't seem worth.
disagree on the difficulty curve part. I don't actually find the early chapters to typically be difficult since enemies are few in number and maps provide plenty of easy ways to go about clearing them. Theres usually a bit of a spike during the early-mid chapters, but that's typically past the point where a weak early unit that I want to use would still be a weak early unit.
although the only non-localized game I've played so far is thracia, I feel that what I've said applies to all fire emblems I've played, thracia included. Don't get me wrong, the prison chapters are difficult, but they're difficult *because* you lose all the units and items you've had up to that point. The game basically hands you a fresh save with sub-optimal units across the board, and you don't even have the option of using a jeigan so that argument is moot. I'm only on chapter 11 now, which I'd consider early-midgame, but it's still not that difficult for me. I don't really think using lunatic mode is a good basis for an argument since those often really can just come down to luck, and are supposed to be more of an unbalanced "challenge" run anyways.
I personally never understood the "exp stealing" angle, and I'm generally somebody who WILL micromanage my exp distribution in *ranked* runs thru FE. Units like Marcus in FE7 are almost guaranteed one-hit kills through a certain extent of the game. This is an obvious help to turn counts and combat rank. So basically, it's a "2v1" situation. Also, EXP distribution is not much of a factor when you get to the bosses. Those early-level bosses are easy kills for the likes of Marcus, and he's still getting relatively nice EXP. If your management is great, the EXP will never be stolen. The Jaigen will just keep your well-oiled machine running whenever needed, and he/she can still get good EXP against bosses.
Good vid. I find myself using pre-promotes more or less based on how well I know the game. I am not as familiar with FE6 or 4 as I am with 7 or 8 so I find myself taking advantage of those characters to kill problem units or soften up targets. Eventually they stop being as good as they were to star. But I find their ability to get enemies into near death hp range by one third through the game to be EXTREMELY useful for leveling up any of my stragglers.
I only used Marcus seriously in Bindìnb Blade Hard Mode... where he eventually hit the bench due to lack of stats. You do need the exp most of the time, so you can replace your rusted Marcus with a better Paladin. I know, I know, this game has Percival, but Lance will carry the gap better. Maybe you can solo Sacred Stones with Seth, but in other games it wont work.On the other side if a character with lot of gained dxp dies, it really sucks, but not always hopeless after their death.
"I know, I know, this game has Percival, but Lance will carry the gap better. " ??? Your "rusted Marcus" can be replaced by Zealot, who is easily about as strong as Alan and Lance would be by the time he joins with no use of the Knight Crest. By the times Zealot "rusts" you have Percival, who is better than Lance even if you train him. Lance does not carry any "gap" better at all, the trio of Marcus->Zealot->Percival outperforms him at each point in the game without spending anywhere near the exp on any of them. Training Lance is good because he's a good unit in a good class himself, not because he somehow "carries the gap" better than the pre-promoted paladins.
K, quandry. What about Conquest? Like, in most FE games I find that enemy units level up quite a bit slower than my own. But in Conquest, enemy units level up s'durn quickly that I find myself playing catchup on basically every map. .... Maybe it doesn't matter because you don't exactly have access to Gunter for most of the game and the pre-promotes you get are generally units you want to use, even if doing so in the exact chapter you get them might be a bit premature.
Depends heavily on the game, usually they aren't actually much more luck based than normal play (everything in Fire Emblem goes to hell if the RNG is particularly cruel), the 0% growths players who upload are generally LTCers and LTC play tends to require more favourable RNG so you don't get stuck standing in place waiting for Henning to stop dodging everything. That can give a skewed example of how 0% growths works. Mekkah has done a FE7 *negative* growths playthrough and it wasn't a big luck fest, he just had to use some slower and more cautious strategies at times to compensate, so if that works you can obviously clear the same game on 0% growths without relying on convenient hits/crits for everything.
Mekkkah Cool. Have never tried one but wanted to check whether Gerik or Oswin-type unpromoted units (comes at high level with good bases) were viable compared to prepromotes.
Gerik is really important for FE8 0% growths. He's one of the only characters who can do well against the lategame bosses since they have insane atk (and DK has decent AS)
or you just play fe8:sethbosskills,every other kill being taken by the lords and vanessa. suddenly you have massively overleveled units after chapter 8
I know that you said that we should play how we want, and that these tips are for people who want to hive higher difficulties a shot, but I like sharing my perspective. Unless the unit is completely useless, I'll use them. I generally care more about the character themself and their design, and I find most Jagens to be very boring, with the exception of Arran (sadly, he's one of the worst Jagens statistically).
you can edit the game with nightmare the hex editor or find the patches online on serenesforest.net on serenes, there is a patching guide (i think) somewhere on the main site or forums, so poke around and you should find it
When i started Fire Emblem (with Sacred stones) i noticed Seth was waaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than my other units, taking no damage (with taking a HORRIFYING 1 point of damage very now and then) and basically one shoting and outspeeding most enemies. My general rule since then is to let others attack and use Seth (or the Equivalent OP starting unit) as an emergency button, either to finish a really big threat that is gonna kill someone or rescue a unit in peril, like a poor Mage that got shot by a lucky longbow crit or some bullshit like that. From my (a bit limited) experience your other units are more than capable to handle their own if you know how to position them. Exept in Radiant Dawn were all your units suck and enemies will literally pop out of nowere to gangbang them. Seriously that game's normal mode is just brutal, and not in the fun way.
Krauser Cruz well Radiant Dawns normal mode being very hard is because a translation error. Because in the japanese version Normal mode is actully hard mode And Easy mode is actully normal mode.
Has anybody beaten PoR on 0% since? It was the only notable game missing from the list Mekkah gave, at least that I would expect to be beatable. *Somebody* has to have done it somewhere, right?
I find it is very sad that I got introduce to fe with later games in series. As those games allow you a lot of grinding. Most of the time I play and have fun first a few chapters and then game allows you to have dlc so I grind until on every chapter I can just auto resolve the whole thing without loosing a single unit. At least I haven't found anything like that in 3 houses
@@kentknightofcaelin4537 Can't recall but I think she was starting to struggle with securing kills while a few units ended up far more blessed than they should have
@@goldencyclone4984 Hm, might be possible. Generally, I would recommend using her until endgame, because she has a ridiculous class and her stats usually hold up. She's also one of the best transfer candidates.
I try not to use my Jeigan units unless I really botch something up and need a meat shield or to quickly kill a specific enemy so that I don't have a character die instead.
Definitely something that I should've mentioned in my video as well (y'know that one that came out last august?). Leveling up isn't as important as players think, it's helpful but not necessary to beat any FE game.
I have a bit of trouble in knowing when to use a pre-promote without worrying about over using them. First game (that I beat) was fe13 which had frederick, the most broken oifey ever.
It's a little known fact that Ests actually steal EXP away from your Jagens.
Characters such as Athos steal even more exp from Jagens
@@garbagelord4374 athos prevented my Marcus from getting a level that would've allowed him to finish off Nergal
There goes Nino, preventing Marcus from getting his 16 speed🙄
"My name is Mekkah." Incorrect. Mekkah is just a nickname. +10%
*Video/audio quality -10%
The video/audio quality really did improve considerably, so that is only fair.
"'My name is Mekkah.' Incorrect. Mekkah is just a nickname." Incorrect. Mekkah has 3 Ks
" " "My name is mekkah" incorrect, Mekkah is just a nickname." Incorrect. Mekkah has 3Ks" " Incorrect, Mekkah actually has 2Ks, but the channel's name has to be 3Ks because it is the same as a certain muslim stuff
I am sure he will legally change his name to prove you wrong
but mekkah, don't you know that killing a prepromote on their join map actually transfers their exp to your most underleveled unit? truly skilled players kill seth in the prologue to give eirika a guaranteed 20/20
Luke Maps fucking stop
I also don't think Seth can even die on that map unless you remove all his items move off the forest tile and end your turn 10 times and hope he gets hit every turn.
Or you know, you could just take away his weapons? Killing is utterly unecessary.
I thought everyone knew that
I just realized that Ephraim is just older Asvel. Think about it.
BARTRE IS GOOD. BARTRE IS A PREPROMOTE. THEREFORE PREPROMOTES ARE GOOD. END OF DISCUSSION.
Haha, Fe 6 Bartre is a unit I enjoy using. Why? 22 BASE ATTACK, THAT'S WHY! He literally explodes anything he hits when he joins. Sure, his skill might make it a bit difficult to hit things every now and then, but same goes with everyone else in Fire Emblem 6, and hell, if your worried about his 10 speed, remember what Bartre said himself to Gonzales; if you can kill them in one hit, it doesn't matter XD
Warriors are always the best archers.
cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/146482767713140737/430231203774464010/Fire_Emblem_U__1522645472365.png
me too thanks
He actually is a pretty good unit. He does the same damage with an iron bow at base as Klein does at base with a silver bow. He’s probably the best wyvern counter in the game and as someone who’s made him a muligir user he’s certainly the best bow user in 6.
I PREFER WADE!!!
fight me
"Their growth rates tend to be worse" And then there's Seth...
literally better growths then eirika lol
and titania
Whenever someone brings up seth i hear the "then along came zeus" from Hercules but "then along came seth"
Thank you for using my music for this cool video ☺☺
Thanks for making it. It's super chill and it made editing a lot less tedious to do!
I think "exp stealing" is only ever a thing when you brain-dead send your "jaegan" down the middle of every map soloing everything until no longer capable (and then the rest of the team is trash). I say this as someone who first started Fire Emblem (FE 7 specifically) doing so, literally letting Marcus do everything for the first several levels until my lower level units had fallen behind the experience curve. I think it is worth being just be a little more clear that while pre-promotes are great tools, they have to be used with a grain of salt.
I think he sorta covered that in the video (in the example where he said Seth isn't "stealing" any experience *as long as he's not taking any more kills than Franz would*).
Yeah, it's good advice to not let a Jagen solo a map. But at some point that advice mutated to "never use them at all", which is just wrong.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with your lower level units falling behind because FE7 gives you so many strong prepromotes along the way. FE7 Marcus is one of the most broken Jagens out there because his bases are good enough for him to be serviceable until the lategame.
@@picklejuice7041 Its not "wrong" per say to let those units fall behind, but the game is significantly easier in the later stages with a little bit of minimal effort into the lower level units with good growths and bases.
@@picklejuice7041 Well there are also a couple of good low level growth units that are definitely worth raising. Raven, Canas, Sain, Kent, Lowen, Heath, Florina etc. You can get by FE7 without some(or all of these), but its definitely worth it to train some(or all) of the people I just mentioned since their growths(and maybe bases) do allow them to be useful
Erika takes XP from my growth units like Seth in the sacred stones
A video where a calm Dutchman tells me not to worry with chill background music? Today is a good day.
RenegadePronoun is mekkkah dutch?
@@matthijscalje4143 three years later and here i am wondering if Mekkah is a dutch
@@its_sisha_not_chair505 he is
Playing through Shadows of Valentia, I used all of my characters so equally that by the 3rd act nobody was even close to their final promotion (aside from Celica and Alm, who just get it from plot).
It wasn't until around that dragon ambush that Kliff finally became a dread fighter, my first 3rd promotion near the last 3 battles of the game.
I suppose it is a skill in and of itself to spread out XP so much that nobody benefits though.
Man I’m super behind xp wise than you were, I just finished act 4 and I just got Kliff to Dread, and he’s my first early game unit to be at the highest class
I just dungeon abuse
Mekkah this new style of pitfall videos is veeeery good, I appreciate the extra effort you are putting into these. I thought I understood the whole exp distribution thing but this video cleared things up for me even more. Keep up the good work Mekkah
Too late, I already killed off Marcus to save exp.
Killing is unecessary, you can just remove his weapons and have him act as a meat shield instead.
Goddamnit Tyga...
But what about the 1 exp Marcus gets from being a meat shield. No experience can be wasted he must be killed. :D (Lol)
Considering that he's causing no damage at all and that his experience gain is pitifull when he does cause damage, no experience is actually lost. Mind you, using Marcus is recommended for the early parts of HHM. As long as he doesn't achieve any lv beyond 5 until you bench him at chapter 21, then it's okay to use him somewhat.
or you could just keep using him because he's only going to be *a bit* worse than the rest of your team by the end
i miss your laptop fan
2:15 *Finally* somebody in this community acknowledged MoogleBoss.
Dark Bishop J i acknowledge him
as someone who never finishes their fucking run >:-(
@@jellyunicorn8347 Yeah, they're really bad about that... XD
Even so, it's clear that they know what they're talking about in their runs. Plus, they're pretty good about answering questions in the comments.
I remember when looking on gamefaqs for how to recruit shinon during my first playthrough of fe9 I saw some guy saying that the exp for killing him would be more valuable to them than having shinon join their army
Armless Kirby he must really hate shinon. Can't say I really blame him that much though...
Considering recruiting him requires Ike, a freshly promoted unit, to get the kill EXP.... that logic just doesn't hold. He "dies" and you get EXP either way.
they were saying they wanted to give the exp to someone else iirc
I feel like that argument barely holds water, because Ike is one of six units who can kill the final boss, and is on of only three who can bring down his first form on Hard, being the best option if trained due to how good Aether or Wrath/Resolve are. BK is an optional boss, so I won't count him as necessary, but I would argue that exp to Ike is NEVER wasted.
That being said, you never said you agreed with him, so I'm not arguing against you or anything. That's just a weird argument they made. Shinon with a +Hit forged Steel Bow or the Brave Bow can be instrumental in taking down Naesala on Hard, which is literally the chapter afterwards. He's a viable boss counter that you can get for the effort of deploying Rolf(who can be untrained) on a map that is easily taken care of with a few trained units, and requires a fairly good unit, Ike, to get the kill.
nah i didnt agree with him i thought it was one of the stupidest things ive seen
I think another important point to make is about the exp rubber band effect in Fire Emblem and other RPGs. Because lower level units receive more exp, it often doesn't matter in the long run whether you min-max that extra level early on. Because a min-maxed unit will be at a higher level, they'll receive less exp per kill for the rest of the game, making the exp gain you worked for early on completely moot.
In other words, the min-maxed unit's early game self is exp-stealing from it's future self.
The pie diagram with Seth/Franz was very powerful
I thought it was all supposed to go to Eliwood.
Shogus 00 not the worst choice you could make (though close to it now that I think about it)
Eliwood, Hector, Rebecca and Guy, those are the ones you should be focusing on giving experience to.
i gave all my exp to florina even after level 20 because i didnt know what i was doing
i had to restart on chapter 19
Experience gains start to crawl once the characters are higher level than the enemies. Avoid giving experience to such characters if possible.
@@DiogoJ1 please be joking
n o t i f i c a t i o n s q u a d b o y s
edit: your content has improved so much, holy shit. Great job!
*loud fan whirring noise*
i love it when my fans make loud noises
just sharing this but one time years ago i was live streaming fire emblem and this guy joins and loses his mind because i let my premote get one kill on a unit threatening a weaker one, he told me that i would have dodged it, but dodge is unreliable, i told him to not backseat and that i know what im doing but he left calling me bad, for real idk why people hate premotes they exsist to make your life easier aginst the early game monsters
Just got five +1 HP level ups in a row in Binding Blade, so im here to console myself
Congrats! Any defence?
Is the joke that it is a high quality video?
there is only one way to EXP steal and that is to let a *GREEN* unit steal kill your exp
Boiling a pot of warm water takes less energy and takes a shorter amount of time than boiling a pot of cold water, even if heat transfers faster the more disparate the temperatures are (touched in thermodynamics classes that use differential equations), the cold water still has to put in the all that energy to raise its temperature to get to where the hot water starts at before it start putting in the energy that the hot water could from the beginning.
Therefore, if you have the choice of leveling up either hot water or cold water, you're stealing exp from the party by choosing cold water.
Except that "hot" water is lukewarm and you can't cook your spaghetti al dente because the cold water sucks shit. The cold water on the other hand can get pretty easily to the boiling point and make me the perfect pasta
Hi Mekkah, I like your pitfalls videos a lot. Please keep making them.
I actually started a 0% growth run recently on FE7. Not because I wanted a challenge (I played on normal difficulty), but because I wanted something different. And it really is different! It makes you think in new ways while playing.
I appreciate that you recommend trying this out in the video and after playing for a while I even get a better understanding of what your point is in this video.
YES! a video that isn't an April Fools joke, going to enjoy this.
But I did enjoy your troll video, found it funny, and I really liked the fan.
Make Mekkah laptop fan great again
Everyone needs to watch this episode! So fantastic!
From a purely practical level i agree with your argument on jegans, however on a personal level I use prepromotes rarely to not at all. The main reason is they just arn't fun to me, i find it boring using a character that can wipe fields easily without any work on my part. Its like "why am i even here if they are already perfectly competent." I think the reason a lot of people try to argue about exp stealing is they want to have a concrete reason to defend they way they prefer to play. The way I see it you don't need a built in reason to play the way you want with the units you want........except for people who like phoenix mode, fuck those people.
whats Pheonix mode
B A S S G O U L D M E M E S it's a game mode in fates where if a unit dies, they come back to life at the start of your next turn.
On other words, "I suck at strategy"-mode.
At least in Final Fantasy Tactics you still have to get them up yourself and there's a possibility for permadeath. Good middle-ground between permadeath and Awakening's Casual Mode for me to get used to the genre and prepare for the older FE games. Probably going to try out Gaiden first, black sheeps tend to intrigue me.
thanks for the replies lol
My main annoyance wth FF tactics's perma death was the chance to miss revive spells several times in a row.
Ty so much. This will allow me to have a way better experience playing Fe. I never thought of it this way.
I think another thing is that growth units seem a lot better when you only play on lower difficulties. Fe7 growth units are absurd on normal because they will still gain levels really fast even when killing low level enemies making reaching level 20 before promotion easy and level 20/1 unit seem a lot better then many prepromotes. However on hard you get massive exp decay after being 5 levels higher meaning that on hard getting to 20 before promotions is not feasible unless you want to promote near end game as you really don't get as many levels. On hard it is better to actually limit the number of growth units used as using too many means you will just have a army of weaklings. Preepromotes actually help growth units since they help bolster your combat power without investment allowing me to invest more in my other units since Marcus at base is already good enough to easily handle 2/3 of the game so I can use him as needed instead of going out my way to feed him.
This is very well done. In terms of practicality, using pre-promotes like Seth is a no brainer, but in terms of fun a lot people prefer using exclusively shit units that can be good later. Thats who will be screeching at this vid.
Mekkah pitfalls, discussions about the games and thracia playthrough is making me really better
It’s really interesting rewatching this after coming off of FE Engage. Vander, FE Engage’s Jagen, is an amazing unit even as a Jagen, especially when you compare him to the twins starting out, and they tend to be pretty weak starting out in their canon classes. Vander is a godsend in front lining early on with his high defense and the lack of powerful mages or staff users early game.
I like prepromotes mostly for utility and not for combat power, although there's something satisfying about sending Marcus on his own to assassinate a few problem enemy units
I'm glad you didn't make this pitfalls episode into an April fools joke like the one from yesterday. Your videos are great, especially the pitfalls 👌
Seth... Makes me happy.
I'd honestly debate that exp stealing should be used for ests and trainees, not for jeigans( and certaintly not oifeys). You are actually wasting all of your late game exp.
Jan Rasmussen in a sense kind of but you get so much of it anyway that it doesnt really matter
Jelly Unicorn That's true, but giving them exp really accomplishes almost nothing. It's not going to make the game impossible or even hard obviously, but it still is technically more of a waste than giving it to a jeigan.
That's not entirely true, outside of FE1 Est gives you the opportunity to triangle attack the shit out of Camus so you can get the Gradivus undamaged. You still don't need to give her exp for that, but I just wanted to mention that this is a nice possibility to use her.
ComRidleyW well that's different than feeding tons of kills. Can't you do it in fe1 as well? The triangle attack is in the game.
the new musical flair is sick
also CONGRATZ on 7k subs!!!
I got a lot more comfortable with using Jagens to help out early once I realized that sometimes it's not really taking any exp at all if a large swarm of enemies would have just killed any other unit I put near them. If a unit does need to be fed a bit of exp I can do it in less dense areas.
Cool video, and it's gotten me curious about 0% growth runs, which up until this point I have completely disregarded (what kind of person would hack a game just to make it artificially harder on themselves?!?). However, I can't help but feel your conclusion to the true premise that Fire Emblem generally front-loads its difficulty to be itself a little misleading. If you eat up the entirety of early maps with your Jagen on the enemy phase, then you run the very real risk of the units that you would want to groom for mid-late game falling behind even the slow enemy unit progression, effectively not making the game any easier at all. Discretion is advised.
Also there is way more than enough exp for everyone by the time you reach end game as everyone will most likely be promoted so missing a few kills with a growth unit doesn't matter.
these are actually lade out and presented so well now i love it, coming up to 10k subs aswell, congrats on 7k
In my first playthrough of a fire emblem game (fe7) i gave all the EXP and statboosters to eliwood. I maxed him out in the dragonsgate, thinking he will get promoted when meeting his father. Boy was I wrong.
I think most people don't want jagens that one round every earlygame enemy because they want to have the jagen chip in enough damage so that every other party member is able to finish it off and get kill XP. Jagens in the normal mode in most fire emblem games seem to one round a lot of enemies so that other units can't get kill XP, thus meaning it's very difficult to control this pie chart example.
Thank you for the helpful videos.
Really enjoyed the video. Its funny to see how you normally are as opposed to seeing you through the point of view of a certain bald norwegian
Can I show my lv100 Feebas in the next Pitfall where you discuss the opportunity cost of not using a max mov Brave Bow Ronan?
Dude the first time I played Ruby back in high school, there was a Feebas on my team right until endgame because I had no idea how to evolve the thing. He was the Jeigan that could!
The thing with using prepromotes a lot is them accidentally dying due to a dumb mistake or some random bullshit and thus being left with underdeveloped characters to work with.
Fortunately you can use prepromotes alongside unpromoted units. Or use multiple prepromotes. Or reset if something very unlikely happens. Which could also happen to units that are not prepromotes.
Hey, Mekkah, will you do a Fire Emblem Pitfalls episode involving the Tellius swordmasters?
That would be interesting. In fe10, Eddie has amazing growths, but the difficulty in the game is heavily frontloaded.
His growths don't save him from Hard/Lunatic mode.
MrYugioh5d he's usable at least. Not amazing like other difficulties
My Edward has always performed badly enough to kick him out when Zihark joins.
If he reaches certain stat thresholds in his first few levels, he's usable all of the dawn brigade chapters, imo. The early speed and strength is make or break. I agree to bench him when Zihark/Jill join otherwise
For prepromotes I usually will use a marcus type to soften up enemies and then feed the kills to maybe 5-6 babby units
I think prepromotes "stealing" exp is only a problem if you use too many characters to begin with. I think in the GBA games a team should be maybe 6-8 people for a regular fun run and maybe 3-4 for a minmaxed optimized run
What kind of April Fools prank is this?! Man, doesn't even compare to Pitfalls 1X
Exp is like dirt in minecraft, sure there technically a limited amount of it but there is so.much that it doesn't matter very much.
My philosophy is i'll use the characters I like the most, but if it's a jeigan, GENERALLY I will take his weapons away and use him as a meatshield, then enemy units may crowd around them. After that, I'll have them rescue a unit that's more ahead than the others (usually my lords for some reason) and that way they don't double, with an iron sword they'll leave units low enough that almost anyone can finish 'em off
also I'm one of those terrible people who only 20/20, i'm sorry, the though of promoting a unit at level 19 instead of 20, and missing out on my very useful 1 health 1 luck is unbearable to me. I know you could easily go without, and probably even promo at 10 and still be MORE than fine, I just am unable to do it
it doesn't help that my favourite units are peg knights, I play really stupidly aggro and i always have them in deep, so maxing them is usually very rewarding. that said I have used fe9's Titania because that was my first fire emblem game, and to this day she's one of my favourite units. I always bench Oscar for her and she doesn't really struggle til around chapter 15ish in my experience, on hard that is
Why wouldn't you use Oscar as well as Titania? They're both great units.
@@kentknightofcaelin4537 They are but I'm really weird, I've never liked cavalry even in fe9 where they're BROKEN. I would probably take him if I had one more slot. I often do a lot of rescue dropping and stuff which is why pegasus knights are my jam
Lol I had no idea that exp stealing was a thing. I started with Shadow Dragon and although the guides said not to use Jagen, his bases are too good for early-mid game to not use.
Also keep up the good work Mekkah! The quality of the content has gotten so much better now! 👍
Honestly wouldn't mind some pitfall re-visits! ^^
While I was thinking: "Urgh, why does he have to be such a bad prepromote?" when I played SD for the first time. Guess I've got too spoiled from using FE7 Marcus, Seth and Titania (or just stop beginning games with Hard 4 mode).
ComRidleyW too true he is lacking when compared to his GBA counterparts, but still good nonetheless.
Well, he's a bad prepromote. Since his stats are about the same as a lv 5 Cavalier. He falls off very quickly. He has his uses, but he's not worth mentioning.
Never thought this video would change my point of views on my hatred for prepromotes......
Just for reference - the only games with 0% growths being unbeatable are:
- Awakening on any difficult above Hard
- Path of Radiance Maniac Mode (unconfirmed)
POR maniac has a 60 hp Ashnard who heals 6 per turn:
At 0 growths you have 3 units who can theoretically damage him
Ike (18+5+3) vs 35 defense, dealing 8 assuming Aether procs. Ashnard heals 6 per turn, meaning Ike’s net DPT is 2.0.
This clearly isn’t good enough since Ashnard hits him back for more than his base HP, but may be possible with RNG abuse.
Dragon (Ena), 2 net damage, far too low. Ashnard outheals ENAs DPT
Tibarn (3 DPT)
Gifts (15 if I did the math right)
In short Ashnard vs gifca may be doable, so it’s hard to rule out. With sufficient RNG abuse it may be possible although unlikely
Your hypothetical situation is irrelevant, because no one in their right mind would have Gilliam or Joshua on their team instead of Franz/Seth.
I think Gilliam was just there to demonstrate competition for the knight crest
Hey experience stealing was redone and you clarified your definition of stealing
(Though you are still comparing level up pace of prepromotes and unpromotes as if the experience difference isn't there like you did with your Marcus v Kent graph)
And you're being a whole lot... idk, nicer? to your opposition? Maybe too nice?
But
I still believe you AGREE with the actual experience stealing argument. From how I see it, experience stealing doesn't invalidate a prepromote or 20-lord, it just provides a reason to use them less. Which you yourself use to praise them! You've shown how Seth fills the role of Franz while being able to give up kills to Vanessa and the like. But isn't the idea of using a jeigan less so other units can train more without forfeiting a deployment slot the idea behind exp-stealing?
...
Wait there are people who just don't deploy them
Why
If you're not using neimi or seth long-term just bring Seth
OK I didn't realize that there were people actually calling them bad units
I still wouldn't put old marcus and frederick on the same tier as Ares, Raven, Othin, and whatnot
But the only jeigans below a solid B plus are Gunter (who cares) and Mystery of the Emblem Jeigan (not new mystery, haven't played shadow dragon)
My whole problem was that you were arguing against something that people weren't saying
Little did I realize they WERE
Still I don't think I'd call it a "common misconception"
"(Though you are still comparing level up pace of prepromotes and unpromotes as if the experience difference isn't there like you did with your Marcus v Kent graph)"
I actually made sure that part was 100% correct now. Franz's line rises a lot more quickly than Seth. Look more closely at the chart and the comments if you think otherwise.
"I still believe you AGREE with the actual experience stealing argument. From how I see it, experience stealing doesn't invalidate a prepromote or 20-lord, it just provides a reason to use them less. Which you yourself use to praise them! You've shown how Seth fills the role of Franz while being able to give up kills to Vanessa and the like.
I actually think every unit steals EXP, especially growth units. If you choose not to use Franz you'll have more EXP for your other units. Every unit you use has an opportunity cost. In Seth's case though you have the choice not to do so, while in Franz's you don't. That's part of what makes Seth so good.
"But isn't the idea of using a jeigan less so other units can train more without forfeiting a deployment slot the idea behind exp-stealing?""
I personally use my jeigans a whole lot more because their combat is so good, and I don't get a whole lot out of spending that EXP on a unit like Gilliam or Joshua instead. As I said later in the video, it's a giant waste not to put their amazing stats not to good use.
Mekkkah
Mekkkah
"Performance" is still a very vague y-axis stat. How is it measured, and why is Franz a 10 where seth is a 100? If Seth is a 100, Franz is well above a "10 performance" right off the bat solely because of his cavalier class.
And if all units steal exp, to whom does it belong? If all units are stealing exp from an exp RANK, it should be low-level units that steal the least and promotes that steal the most, right? If growth units are stealing exp from base units, why did you make the point about high base units needing less exp and being able to give exp to growth units?
I'm against using early game jeigans because I just think it's boring. I certainly don't deny that they are GOOD in early game. But I REALLY don't understand your point on growth units stealing exp. I agree that fire emblem is more than possible without having a capped Nino for the last three chapters or giving Corple Tornado. From what I hear, part of what makes jeigans useful is their ability to give other units exp, so you end the game with a moderately stronger Seth slightly behind a 15/5 Franz while Vanessa and friends split the levels that would have gone to Franz otherwise. And I agree with that! But shouldn't the argument be "too many growth units splits the exp too thin" and not "growth units steal more exp?" Because in the case of Franz v seth, Franz is stealing kills... from other growths. How can growths steal exp if that exp was already going to growths?
Why am I even here I did fe7 ranked and it's not like the seth thing matters cause fe8 doesn't HAVE ranks
Wait nvm the corple thing if you gave corple tornado he would need Sety blood so he would already have holsety
I do not disagree on the exp distribution stuff, and use Seth because he is both mechanically useful and also one of my favorite characters in that game in general by personality. Honestly though, I have just never used Marcus. Honestly, I should. Having looked at the wiki his growths are not the abysmal numbers I had always heard they are, so using him at least some should not be the issue I thought it was when I first went through Lyn's game.
Exp stealing still exists, and the one who does it is Ryoma in Fates chapter 4
You mean to tell me someone beat Lunatic Conquest with 0% growths? *sees description labels as unfinished* I really just want to see how he gets past ch25 and Endgame.
I actually got my best hands-on experience of prepromotes in playing, of all things, the 0 bases hack of FE7. In it, I promoted Kent around level 15 in Lyn’s mode, and left Sain to hit level cap (30 in this hack, though exp gain was drastically increased).
Kent was sturdier, pulled his weight more, and generally was reliable through the most difficult parts of HHM, at least after he joined up. Later on, of course my other units surpassed him, but even though he couldn’t do much late game he still was a useable unit.
I also could use my experience with Matthew in the early chapters of HHM. He basically was my emergency plan for doing what nobody else physically could, since I had deliberately fed him exp in Lyn mode to let him Jagen for the no-stat Hector. By the time the first Valor arc was winding down Matthew’s days of combat mastery were over, but he let me actually beat these chapters which would be effectively impossible without him, so he was definitely the mvp of my run.
MythrilZenith yo matthew in 0 bases is really hot
dorcas is also basically your 2nd jeigan
What about in echoes/gaiden? Most characters dont get enough stat bonuses from promoting and it only raises units to the BASE stats of the new class. Rounding them out with a couple of levels past promotion has proven to be very useful for increasing stats that arent boosted by promotion.
Prepromotes arent as much of a topic since there are 3 tiers for them anyway
That game doesnt even have a jagen
Incredible work
Its worth noting that FE4/6 0% growths involved RNG abuse. I'm pretty sure FE6 only had that one super unreliable bosskill on Henning, but FE4 0% growth strats are absolutely ridiculous and involved long arena RNG abuse.
True, but again that was mostly because he was LTCing. He could've taken a slower and more reliable approach. FE4 is actually one of the two games I've beaten on 0% growths and it wasn't all that bad.
Yeah, Gen 2 isn't too rough going slow thanks to the holy weapons.
When playing an Ironman. Even if we went with the wasted EXP mentality. A Jagen killing a unit to save your Est's life. Would still save a LOT of exp when youthink of it. The ammount of exp saved is the total your Est has earned - 35.
@Mekkkah *There is a logical error in the explanation of "EXP stealing".*
The argument goes as follows:
Claim in the video:
1. If all EXP were split between 6 characters, each will gain 1/6 of the total EXP.
2. Seth doesn't grow much, if any at all.
Result >
- Each of 5 non-prepromoted unit + 1/6 total EXP of levels/stats, +1 unit of Seth.
Counter 1:
1. If we restrict Seth completely, and train 5 characters instead of 6, each will gain 1/5 of the total EXP.
2. Seth doesn't grow.
3. Franz doesn't grow.
4. But we can re-include Seth after each unit has received 1/5 of the total EXP.
Result >
- Each of 5 non-prepromoted unit + 1/5 total EXP of levels/stats, +1 unit of Seth.
Counter 2:
1. If we restrict Seth completely, and train 6 characters including Franz, each will gain 1/6 of the total EXP.
2. Seth doesn't grow.
3. Franz grow to Seth's equivalent.
Result >
- Each of 6 non-prepromoted unit + 1/6 total EXP of levels/stats, +2 units of Seth (Franz's equivalence).
Counter 2 has been addressed in the video, but it was heavily constrained as "given you can only choose 6, and all the other 5 are fixed, and you can only choose either Franz or Seth, it makes no difference." Which is very much a false dichotomy/constructed edge-case, as in no chapter of the game that I can recall, that you were forced to have only 6 characters, and one of it must be either Franz or Seth, or any of such equivalent cases.
An oversimplified TL;DR explanation:
- If you give 1/6 EXP given to Seth, you have 1x Level 4 Seth and 1x Level 1 Franz.
- If you give 1/6 EXP given the Franz, now you have 2x Level 1 Seths.
Which has more combined power? 2x promoted units, or 1x promoted unit with slight level up + 1x base-fodder?
I'm in no way saying this is a bad video, but the logic of "EXP stealing" is JUSTIFIED, and can only be nullified (not even improved by alternatives) in edge cases such as one provided in the video. In most unconstrained cases, "EXP stealing" is still mathematically bad in 95% of the time.
P.S. I'm the 666th like :D
Your math "works out" but the conclusion you (and many others) are attaching is that Seth is somehow a worse character for it.
The point of using exactly 6 units with different EXP distributions is to show that including Seth in your army is not hurting the EXP gain of the other five. In fact, it can potentially help them if he donates some of his fair share. You can repeat the excercise with 7, 8, 9 or 9000 units and the point remains the same.
The reason I'm making one choose between Seth and Franz is that a lot of people (unfortunately) think class-by-class and only want to compare a Paladin to another potential Paladin. By using Franz as the example I'm demonstrating what the difference is between being prepromoted and not prepromoted. Again, you can repeat the same thing but put a different unpromoted character in Franz's place.
Comparing a team of 6 units + Seth to a team of 5 units + Seth is not only an unfair comparison (the 5 unit team could just add a unit as well), but it also misses the point: both of these teams have Seth, and this is only possible because Seth is a prepromoted god that can be inserted into a team later in the game without a drop of EXP.
And this doesn't address that when Seth is used unrestricted he is really, really, really good.
@Mekkah
Seth is God-tier character; from base stats, to class advantage, to stats growth, to weapon mastery, to combat relevance, to chapter involvement, etc, basically in every sense of the game, Seth is incredibly useful. To underrate Seth is ignorant at best, and I do not agree on any premise that Seth is bad unit to use, except some would say he is too OP.
With that said, the 'EXP thief" argument still stands, that giving the EXP from Seth to another unit, gains you one more powerful unit, while allowing you to keep Seth as he was.
It's not "comparing 5 units + 1 Seth, to 6 units + 1 Seth";
but rather "having 5 unit without Seth at first, leads to 6 units + Seth in the end".
The results are mathematically in favour of doing without Seth, unless your Seth has miraculous growth and your "Seth substitute" got RNG stomped.
This is essentially an "systems optimisation" problem, which is just another Calculus problem. It is not that "Seth will destroy your progress if you use him", it is just that "Using Seth is not the most optimal solution to your maximisation problem".
Using Seth is like getting 8/10, it is not bad but 9/10 is better. My key argument was that you have made some errors in your calculations, that has head to equating 8/10 to be as good as 9/10, which is not correct in the mathematical sense.
And yes you are right that even if you have made a mathematical error, it doesn't constitute as evidence that using Seth is "literally the doom", which is what lot of people having been constantly harping about but has had little statistical evidence to back up said naggings.
Overall I'm pretty neutral about the whole "EXP thief" thing (except when it comes to the math), during a casual play I'll just use Seth whenever I see fit/convenient, I'm not too bothered about the "potential +1 Skill if I had let Eirika got the kill", since it really doesn't contribute to neither the overall progress of the game, nor my overall enjoyment of the game. In fact, over-optimisation sucks the fun out of the game, making it as if I'm doing some math homework that no one has assigned, in place of hours of fun that I could have enjoyed if I'm not so anal about perfection.
In a troll playthrough, I would just Arena-abuse Seth and Lute, and sweep the game LOL XD
He Ang pro_CTB fuck lute
Wouldn't the entire early game be waaay easier though if you just used Seth instead of benching him for any other prepromote to grow? It was already argued that EXP wasn't as important as many people deem it to be, which is why EXP stealing/distribution is a pitfall.
I am by no means a smart person, maybe I just kicked myself in the head for replying, but sacrificing Seth for better later chapters doesn't seem worth.
earlygame fe8 is really easy though, save for the bosses who are at best non-trivial
disagree on the difficulty curve part. I don't actually find the early chapters to typically be difficult since enemies are few in number and maps provide plenty of easy ways to go about clearing them. Theres usually a bit of a spike during the early-mid chapters, but that's typically past the point where a weak early unit that I want to use would still be a weak early unit.
Honestly depends on the game and difficulty really.
although the only non-localized game I've played so far is thracia, I feel that what I've said applies to all fire emblems I've played, thracia included.
Don't get me wrong, the prison chapters are difficult, but they're difficult *because* you lose all the units and items you've had up to that point. The game basically hands you a fresh save with sub-optimal units across the board, and you don't even have the option of using a jeigan so that argument is moot. I'm only on chapter 11 now, which I'd consider early-midgame, but it's still not that difficult for me.
I don't really think using lunatic mode is a good basis for an argument since those often really can just come down to luck, and are supposed to be more of an unbalanced "challenge" run anyways.
I personally never understood the "exp stealing" angle, and I'm generally somebody who WILL micromanage my exp distribution in *ranked* runs thru FE. Units like Marcus in FE7 are almost guaranteed one-hit kills through a certain extent of the game. This is an obvious help to turn counts and combat rank. So basically, it's a "2v1" situation. Also, EXP distribution is not much of a factor when you get to the bosses. Those early-level bosses are easy kills for the likes of Marcus, and he's still getting relatively nice EXP.
If your management is great, the EXP will never be stolen. The Jaigen will just keep your well-oiled machine running whenever needed, and he/she can still get good EXP against bosses.
I would hope you micromanage your exp in a rank run lmao. That should be a given.
Waouh, 2 April Fools' videos instead of just 1!
You're a hard-worker Mekkkah!
numbers make my brain go up
Good vid. I find myself using pre-promotes more or less based on how well I know the game. I am not as familiar with FE6 or 4 as I am with 7 or 8 so I find myself taking advantage of those characters to kill problem units or soften up targets. Eventually they stop being as good as they were to star. But I find their ability to get enemies into near death hp range by one third through the game to be EXTREMELY useful for leveling up any of my stragglers.
Rancid Randy except that on fe4 Sigurd is your best unit forever
So good in fact the only way the game could step up the difficulty was to have him attend The Barbecue
And then they give you Sigurd 2.0. And a bunch of fricking gods. Yeah, I'm looking at you Ares.
I only used Marcus seriously in Bindìnb Blade Hard Mode... where he eventually hit the bench due to lack of stats. You do need the exp most of the time, so you can replace your rusted Marcus with a better Paladin. I know, I know, this game has Percival, but Lance will carry the gap better. Maybe you can solo Sacred Stones with Seth, but in other games it wont work.On the other side if a character with lot of gained dxp dies, it really sucks, but not always hopeless after their death.
"I know, I know, this game has Percival, but Lance will carry the gap better. "
???
Your "rusted Marcus" can be replaced by Zealot, who is easily about as strong as Alan and Lance would be by the time he joins with no use of the Knight Crest. By the times Zealot "rusts" you have Percival, who is better than Lance even if you train him.
Lance does not carry any "gap" better at all, the trio of Marcus->Zealot->Percival outperforms him at each point in the game without spending anywhere near the exp on any of them.
Training Lance is good because he's a good unit in a good class himself, not because he somehow "carries the gap" better than the pre-promoted paladins.
K, quandry.
What about Conquest?
Like, in most FE games I find that enemy units level up quite a bit slower than my own. But in Conquest, enemy units level up s'durn quickly that I find myself playing catchup on basically every map.
....
Maybe it doesn't matter because you don't exactly have access to Gunter for most of the game and the pre-promotes you get are generally units you want to use, even if doing so in the exact chapter you get them might be a bit premature.
>uploading a serious video on April Fools day
God Mekkah is based as fuck
0% growth runs are luck based. They need certain enemies to miss and hits to Crit.
Depends heavily on the game, usually they aren't actually much more luck based than normal play (everything in Fire Emblem goes to hell if the RNG is particularly cruel), the 0% growths players who upload are generally LTCers and LTC play tends to require more favourable RNG so you don't get stuck standing in place waiting for Henning to stop dodging everything. That can give a skewed example of how 0% growths works. Mekkah has done a FE7 *negative* growths playthrough and it wasn't a big luck fest, he just had to use some slower and more cautious strategies at times to compensate, so if that works you can obviously clear the same game on 0% growths without relying on convenient hits/crits for everything.
Wasn't expecting Undertale, gave me a good laugh.
But You said youre putting the channels in the description, but when i see the description, theres only some text and done. *WE GOT FOOLED AGAIN*
Something I've been wondering - in 0% growth runs, do promotion items and stat boosters no longer increase stats?
They do. The idea of 0% growth runs is to remove the luck factor of growths, not to prevent improvement.
Mekkkah Cool. Have never tried one but wanted to check whether Gerik or Oswin-type unpromoted units (comes at high level with good bases) were viable compared to prepromotes.
Gerik is really important for FE8 0% growths. He's one of the only characters who can do well against the lategame bosses since they have insane atk (and DK has decent AS)
or you just play fe8:sethbosskills,every other kill being taken by the lords and vanessa. suddenly you have massively overleveled units after chapter 8
But the wiki says experience stealing is bad so it has to be 100% true since the wiki is always right :(
You missed the links to the runs lol
fixed it! thanks
I know that you said that we should play how we want, and that these tips are for people who want to hive higher difficulties a shot, but I like sharing my perspective. Unless the unit is completely useless, I'll use them. I generally care more about the character themself and their design, and I find most Jagens to be very boring, with the exception of Arran (sadly, he's one of the worst Jagens statistically).
Also, you're right. People shouldn't stress about "maximizing exp". I do it because I have the most fun seeing a crap of units grow.
The most important pitfall
How can I do a 0% growths run? I'm curious
Idiot MK-1000 2: THE SEQUEL you set the growths to 0% and then you kill everything with prepromote/miledy/gerik/stuff
you can edit the game with nightmare the hex editor or find the patches online on serenesforest.net
on serenes, there is a patching guide (i think) somewhere on the main site or forums, so poke around and you should find it
When i started Fire Emblem (with Sacred stones) i noticed Seth was waaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than my other units, taking no damage (with taking a HORRIFYING 1 point of damage very now and then) and basically one shoting and outspeeding most enemies.
My general rule since then is to let others attack and use Seth (or the Equivalent OP starting unit) as an emergency button, either to finish a really big threat that is gonna kill someone or rescue a unit in peril, like a poor Mage that got shot by a lucky longbow crit or some bullshit like that.
From my (a bit limited) experience your other units are more than capable to handle their own if you know how to position them. Exept in Radiant Dawn were all your units suck and enemies will literally pop out of nowere to gangbang them. Seriously that game's normal mode is just brutal, and not in the fun way.
Krauser Cruz well Radiant Dawns normal mode being very hard is because a translation error. Because in the japanese version Normal mode is actully hard mode And Easy mode is actully normal mode.
Has anybody beaten PoR on 0% since? It was the only notable game missing from the list Mekkah gave, at least that I would expect to be beatable. *Somebody* has to have done it somewhere, right?
A couple of my Patrons (like Dani Doyle) have been doing it, I know Espinosa finished their run, and Radd actually finished FE9 JP 0% on Maniac Mode.
Very Seth.
*LYN FACE*
HOWEVER
This video in one line:
Bases > Growths
However, that's the simple truth
I find it is very sad that I got introduce to fe with later games in series. As those games allow you a lot of grinding. Most of the time I play and have fun first a few chapters and then game allows you to have dlc so I grind until on every chapter I can just auto resolve the whole thing without loosing a single unit. At least I haven't found anything like that in 3 houses
old games had grinding too
@@feferson492 didn't know. Everytime I watched TH-camrs they didn't grind so kind of thought that it didn't give you chance to grind.
@@germanverner6501 most of the lame stuff on the newer fire emblem games were in the old ones one way or the other
0% growth rates is a thing... yea I dont hate myself that much
>Posts useful video on April Fools
RIP Mekkkah
Oh God that perfect Artur level up screen. Jesus wept, that was beautiful.
Yeah, I used Titania for a good long while in FE9 on my first run, and my team still turned out fine. I did bench her around Chapter 17/18 though.
Why would you bench her?
@@kentknightofcaelin4537 Can't recall but I think she was starting to struggle with securing kills while a few units ended up far more blessed than they should have
@@goldencyclone4984 Hm, might be possible. Generally, I would recommend using her until endgame, because she has a ridiculous class and her stats usually hold up. She's also one of the best transfer candidates.
I try not to use my Jeigan units unless I really botch something up and need a meat shield or to quickly kill a specific enemy so that I don't have a character die instead.
Watched all this video in 144p glorious
I always get shafted by titania dont know why.
Definitely something that I should've mentioned in my video as well (y'know that one that came out last august?). Leveling up isn't as important as players think, it's helpful but not necessary to beat any FE game.
I have a bit of trouble in knowing when to use a pre-promote without worrying about over using them.
First game (that I beat) was fe13 which had frederick, the most broken oifey ever.