Punish Game vs. Neutral Game - Which Is More Important? - Super Smash Bros.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ธ.ค. 2016
- Is Punish Game or Neutral Game more important when playing Competitive Smash? Kira discusses this in a new format for one of our Meta videos. Also we haven't done meta in a long time so we felt like we should. Enjoy!
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Spoiler Alert: It's both.
NVM
I like the format, as well as the other. Both are good for different types of videos.
ayyyyyy
Shoutouts to you
It is interesting how a low liked comment is top because Im subcribed to them. Cool how that works TBH
Yayayayayayayayayayayayayaayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayahoooooooooooooooooooooo
I'm always amazed by how crazy Leffen and Armada's punish games are
one touch very often leads to death
Attention Everyone. This new format DOES NOT mean we are going to ditch standard tutorials all together. We are just trying to provide a variety of content as well as a means to provide more "meta" videos or videos that talk about things in the meta game rather than step by step tutorials. We are uploading these along side our standard tutorials where there will be no facecam due to the focus being on only the gameplay. Since this is a "meta" video, the focus is on the discussion of it and the gameplay examples. Thank you everyone for the feedback
Nice to see new stuff. Keep at it.
This new setup is fine as long as the standard format just comes more often
SSBM Tutorials As long as its quality stuff then there is no reason to worry about it. Its good stuff and helps with all aspects od the game. If people dont like it, too bad. It's your channel and you want to have fun with it.
Nintega94 /\
New format is good as long as the old one stays as well ofc
Neutral game? Funny way to spell spindas-
Wrong channel
Cyrekt Lmao
This new format is a dope way to mix things up, as long as the old one stays
Love the new format, for non-tutorials anyway. I would love a video about the specifics of marth movement, and optimal Marth neutral, although this may be too specific of a topic.
we have a couple videos on that already!
People to watch for a textbook punish game:
ICs - "LOL"
LOOOOL
I think this is important. I was a dumb tech skill Marth. I'd practice going as fast as possible and doing useless Wavelands and what not and I was losing like 90% of my matches. then I switched to peach and used her very practically because of her limited movement and started winning a lot more sets because I utilized good neutral and punish games. that then transfered back to my Marth and now I use both and get good results
Aldo Raine what do you practice for faster movement w peach?
Aldo Raine also love the inglorious basterds reverence
Tooglian Primus it's not do much about being fast but in that sense of how fox is fast. I usually try to keep my spacing correct and utilize her float cancel to get moves out quickly. also her wavedash and Waveland isn't as bad as people think. try to work on getting the full length out of those. I play a more bait and punish style with her but there are more approaches to Peach as well
I was exactly the same, but with Fox. I was always trying to be flashy, but it was rarely practical or purposeful. It's still a habit that I'm trying to break, actually, but I've gotten much better about it.
kira this is a great new format, you're a natural in front of the camera
This a great format. I think a video about haxdashing would be helpful.
Jackal VonStone wavelanding from ledge back to ledge? it's just a mix up, and it looks kind of cool, mainly its just to throw off the opponents timing if they seem to be ready for an invincible ledge dash, then you can hax dash to bait the reaction and THEN do your ledge dash.
oh shit nice video
Coach McGuirk I know how it works, but I kinda just want to see a video about it. I'm a Marth/C.Falcon main and I think learning the different timings for both characters in video format would be helpful to me.
You don't even have to bait a reaction for haxdash to be effective. Haxdash forces the opponent to react to Falcon standing on the ledge (+ hanging on the edge) as opposed to Falcon hanging on the edge.
I'm a Falcon main & I've been learning how to Haxdash. I have figured out the inputs, which are tap away or tap down to let go of edge, then immediately jump, hold towards stage, then do a downward angle
this new format is clean af
I'm not sure what it is about being able to SEE you while you describe things but it actually helped my comprehension with the video.
You seem to have a good idea of when a game play clip is necessary, which is also very helpful.
I love this style, it feels like I'm having a real discussion with you about the topic at hand and you answer my questions, that makes Melee more meaningful and this info much better remembered.
I think this format is great, both are amazing imo, as long as you keep releasing great videos!
I'm focusing on getting better at Project M right now, and this video helped me to realize that my punish game was very weak (and I main Snake, who is *the* punish character in PM, IMO). I'm going to start grinding away at my punish game in isolation and see how it works out for me. TBH, this video applies to a lot of fighting games (Smash or no) in various ways, and it helps me to look at things a little differently than before. Thanks, SSBM-T Crew! :D
"falcon punish game- Stomp > Knee" -Kira 2016
Remember that comment you wrote to that guy who asked for falcon's punish game?
Grind out that punish game guys
Definitely like this format! Much more laid back. Keep it up!
Yeah I LOVE this new format. Showing in real time what you're explaining (like m2k vs mango on FD) is perfect to help me understand what you mean. Definitely keep this style up lol
new video style was dope. keep up the good work homie
I like the new format. Keep up the good work!
Loved this type of video, I wouldn't mind if you did this style every now and then. Keep up the hard work man. Even though I still suck at Melee this still helps me learn more about the game and helps me understand interactions better when playing.
Loved this new format. Much more information is delivered
big fan of this format. the cuts to gameplay are very professional and I found it to work well.
I think this is a really good format for some discussion topics, it'll flesh itself out when you have more of them to talk about; one could be the facts on the controller controversy that's going on right now. I'd personally like to see a video on exactly what to setup on 20XX and how to practice specific tech skill. Having 20XX myself, it's hard to determine what exact parameters to setup to actually improve and work on, what to look for, and what to actually work on with it. That all by itself would be a really good video.
This will probably create some good discussion. Great video Kira!
Good timing; for fans of m2k's punish game, UGC was an immensely fun tournament.
Also I like seeing you talk at the camera, it felt professional.
I love this! Good stuff. I like this format a lot as well. And the info: even if it's something I've thought of before, it's phrased in a way that makes me rethink it, so good stuff. Really liked this video.
Btw.: IC's main here. And Neutral is definitely more important, might be character depended as well. But that's what I feel.
really like this format! It's its just a nice change,hope to see both tho.
It's so cool to see how this channel has grown
For analysis videos like this, I enjoy this facecam format. For How-to's, I believe the old traditional format works best. I wouldn't mind having both to mix it up a bit. Sick vid as always.
I do like this format vety well, still good that you guys still incorperate the visuals in, I say go with this format and use it more often.
This video was awesome, I love this format
I really dig this style of video, having examples of clips instead of just melee the whole time makes it easier to watch imo
Good vid Kira, new style works well
Ice Climbers with a textbook punish game "lol" XD. Great video guys.
really liked the new style of video 👍
This is great! Thanks Kira!
Great Video! By the way, congratz on Prof at Eden! It makes me happy to see the teacher out here bodying fools.
I like both formats. This one was a nice change of pace and works pretty well, imo. It's like having a nice chat with Kira!
awesome vid dude!!!
I like the new format, it feel much more personal. Its nice to see the man behind it all every once and awhile.
Yo dude had fun playing you at eden, I like the live action stuff keep it up :)
Love the format!
Would like to see a video about 20XX, and its various features in the latest version, as well as its advantages and where to get it
Saw you at eden. Your tutorials are sick man.
Liking this series, Kira!
Dumb Technical = WeshBaws
Still love him
Don't agree with you on that. Yes, his techskill is very flashy, but not dumb. When he lands a shine, he can often get a huge punish off of it and sometimes 0-deaths. So not just Dumb Technical, because his punishgame is amazing.
Its Tip he used to not be as smart
But he often loses to players not considered better than him.
good shit. been thinking this for a while so been grinding but nice to have it affirmed by a non-noob.
He says that I already know who it is at the beginning of the video but I'm always surprised that it is Kira! I mean who has the foresight to know who it is everytime!? but for real love the videos
The format in the video is fine pretty much what you want to do. As long as visual examples are included, it's all good.
Great video!
Love the new format
Thanks a ton for this video! I totally agree that the punish game is more important. No matter how many times I win neutral, if my opponent wins neutral less than me but kills me faster, I lose. This happens a lot since I haven't had the time to focus and practice my punish game as much as I'd like to since I have been dealing with fixing my low grades in college. As important as the neutral game is, I feel like it only becomes MORE important than the punish game if both players have an equally strong punish game. If one player has a stronger punish game, odds are they will win more often because they need to win the neutral game less times than their opponent does.
This video is still super informative, honestly melee is probably the game where advantage state matters the most
kira somehow has a "good look" for face cam videos. I can't explain it.
BUT - while this new format isn't necessarily bad, I'd like it to only be used when it's effective, when a topic is too abstract to only show with examples and so on. one of the great strengths of this channel is its clearness: you always get clear examples of everything that is explained. never prioritize format over content- that is, only pick a format if it truly serves the content!
also, I'd like for the series that has already been going on for a while (i.e. "are you an X player" etc) to remain the way they are: without face cam. continuity and consistency is important, and those videos has already proved to work amazingly without face cam.
anyway, nice video as always. I'm exited to see how you develop your channel, and I always look forward to every upload. :)
Good video. Can we see one on techchasing/option coverage?
Regarding those new types of videos, I think a mix of both would be better, or you could use this type of video on certain subject. For Exemple, game analysis or something like it.
Regarding the neutral VS punish, I think there needs to be a good balance between both of them, but I have strong preference for the punish game since once you win neutral, if you can take a stock, you did your job!
I really liked this format, and the more theory oriented content. Don't get me wrong, I love character specific guides and matchup information, but developing a strong mental game is so important in the long run.
Thought this was a cool approach and vid. A friend of mine and I actually had a similar conversation recently. He brought up something akin to what you were saying about the more recent meta revolving around the punish game, and we proposed that since there are more players now that know about super great competitors, but don't live in super strong regions or have access to incredible players, people focus more on playing "optimally." This leans more towards punish game in my opinion. Practicing and solidifying "guaranteed" punishes, or safe pressure as opposed to being able to mentally break down, download, or manipulate your opponent. The latter things usually require much more time with the game, and other players, whereas you can simply practice punish game anywhere lol
I don't personally think that it's necessarily a better way to play, but I do think that it's a more practical way to progress when you don't have highly skilled people to play against regularly. When playing against other players who are "up and coming" or beginning, the punish game will definitely give you the edge. It's almost like the beginner tech ceiling. Without a certain amount of tech, you'll most likely lose to anyone else that has that tech. BUT, I think that once you begin to play players who have solid punish games, and legitimate skills in neutral, the sole focus on punish game proves detrimental. Being able to detect baits, or condition your opponent are paramount in competitive fighting games. It's hard to cheese really solid players, so you should definitely have a strong sense of positioning, defensive options (if hit, or if shielding a hit), and mix-ups or you'll get destroyed before making it to where your punish game can shine.
Id really like to see a fox vs falco guide video! I have been maining falco for a while but I think I might be seeing more potential in my fox
I liked series! More videos like this!
To be fair I wasn't too much into this channel (only watched a couple of vids before this one months ago), however the format of this video made it very approachable since it actually felt like someone was talking to me instead of just some voice and footage of the showcased tutorial. Maybe it's just the fact that Kira appeared on this video but it felt more, human so to speak.
I play S4 and this is actually really helpful.
i prefer these videos WAYYY MORE, they help me out A LOT
I liked this video! Now I'm motivated to improve my Punish game. Thank you!
I really liked this format, it seems more like a friendly conversation of a high-level smasher teaching a young padawan how he can improve, which I'm sure is how a lot of other new-ish smashers like to learn as well.
When is the sheik needle video coming out?
when the wobbling video comes out
when the jab tutorial comes out
Calugrey when smash switch comes out
I like the new style!
I'm waiting for a tutorial on westballz style shield pressure
You should do a video guide on the marth ditto. It is a very volatile matchup that is very difficult if you don't know the basic guidelines for what to do
I think adding your face is a great element for this channel. I would suggest having your face in your videos every now and then
Kira?! I thought this was Duck!!
JurgaBurgaFlintines
ah jeez
You can tell it's not duck because his face is moving.
nice video thanks
i like the new style of video
I really liked this format. Felt more laid back and personal. Almost like chatting about Melee with a better player.
Great video
Exactly what people asked for the last comment section holy shit you guys are beast. How to get better and an insight into the pros all at once, amazing :P
Amazing content, love you d00d
O thank god you pointed out the bell thing, I never saw it 'till now...
Kellen was at a local in Hawaii I entered yesterday, it was pretty dope
New style is GR8. You go Kira
could you do a vid on all the new 20xx features in 4.05
the most useful ones are in the "how to practice fox" video, i think 3.02 is overall better for practice
this is awesome variety is good
I know I’m like super late, but punish is massively underrated especially at time of recording. No one has a perfect neutral but nigh perfect punish is a must have at top level play because you can just grind it out. If you have bad neutral but amazing punish, it doesn’t matter because you only have to win neutral 7-8 times a game to win which is not a lot. If you have amazing neutral and bad punish, you’re neutral win rate has to be amazing. Also, neutral is (mostly) dependent on player which is radically different from player to player but punish game is based on character (mostly). So learning neutral first is learning the game backwards.
Hey, I have a box-like old crt, but it's like 25" so not super tiny. Will it work for lagless melee?
Chess grand masters say that you should study the endgame, and then the opening. Their theory was that the opening is too abstract to study, but the endgame was very definite because of the lack of options available to both players. I think this applies to Melee and I've been applying this with moderate success.
I agree with what the video seems to be implying. Punish game is more important to focus on for newer players with less access to other people because it is more of the fighting game side is melee, where you can basically muscle memory your way from the opening to the kill, while neutral is something that is learned over time.
I think both are VERY VERY important. As such i make a great effort to improve both aspects as best as possible. Someone in the yoshi skype group way back when it existed answered a match up question i had with "one touch death and don't get hit" and while i'm fairly positive as yoshi there are times you need to get hit to win the neutral, i subscribe to the mentality that they're both very important to practice and learn, and that neutral game can be grinded out just as hard as tech skill once you learn what to look for.
That said yoshi's neutral game is limited, but interesting regardless, and in a situation where your opponent can one touch kill you (incert ics here, or any character who can combo you to death reliably) then honestly your two options are to repetitively winning neutral, or win neutral then hope your punish game is on point. My punish game isn't always on point so i do my best to use the former.
Just my opinion on the matter though.
(PS; neutral game is too much fun to give up on. especially when you use it to beat someone better skilled in tech than you are)
lol at the the sheik textbook punish examples, I'd think m2k would be a good example
I would definitely recommend watching plup for punish game help with Samus. When he gets a grab vs spacies he has great platform tech chases
i pretty much exclusively practice movement and punish game, but it doesn't take me too far. i rarely play against human opponents so i usually find it very difficult to even find an opening or get a hit on an opponent more skilled than me. aka, you need neutral skill too
This semester I played almost every day with people from my uni, most of whom happen to be considerably worse than me, but because of school I didn't go to many tournaments. I didn't drop very many games unless someone good came to play (it's a very casual setting in the middle of a big city so ppl would just drop by). What I didn't realize until later is that by beating up on scrubs all semester, my punish game slowly became pretty nasty, to the point where I can comfortably take games off players who I used to consider much better than me. Since I realized this, I've started focusing a lot on more the neutral game, because I'm confident in my ability to get a wicked fat punish off most openings.
tl;dr: I believe the best way to improve is to focus on punish first, neutral after. It's the exact same reason we tell day 1 scrubs to grind tech skill before facing people - once the tech (punish) becomes second nature to execute, you can start using your brain on how to find the openings.
really like the vid
for that list of "textbook" punish game list at the end, wouldnt sheik just be m2k again?
I'm actually thinking about it right now and all the other ones [minus ICs and luigi, I dont pay much attention to them] and all those people with those characters are actually very spot on for that description "textbook punish game" makes me happy to see the diversity of characters and people lol.
i love this channel
new series = 👍
its a mix of both for sure, but i feel like taking the time to learn the neutral game will ultimately take you further in the long run. The punish game is something thats already pretty set in stone for each top tier character, but the neutral game is so broad since it has more to do with human nature and habits
New format is nice
are PM cpus good for punish game also? I'm trying to play PM as well