Attention Everyone. This new format DOES NOT mean we are going to ditch standard tutorials all together. We are just trying to provide a variety of content as well as a means to provide more "meta" videos or videos that talk about things in the meta game rather than step by step tutorials. We are uploading these along side our standard tutorials where there will be no facecam due to the focus being on only the gameplay. Since this is a "meta" video, the focus is on the discussion of it and the gameplay examples. Thank you everyone for the feedback
SSBM Tutorials As long as its quality stuff then there is no reason to worry about it. Its good stuff and helps with all aspects od the game. If people dont like it, too bad. It's your channel and you want to have fun with it.
I think this is important. I was a dumb tech skill Marth. I'd practice going as fast as possible and doing useless Wavelands and what not and I was losing like 90% of my matches. then I switched to peach and used her very practically because of her limited movement and started winning a lot more sets because I utilized good neutral and punish games. that then transfered back to my Marth and now I use both and get good results
Tooglian Primus it's not do much about being fast but in that sense of how fox is fast. I usually try to keep my spacing correct and utilize her float cancel to get moves out quickly. also her wavedash and Waveland isn't as bad as people think. try to work on getting the full length out of those. I play a more bait and punish style with her but there are more approaches to Peach as well
I was exactly the same, but with Fox. I was always trying to be flashy, but it was rarely practical or purposeful. It's still a habit that I'm trying to break, actually, but I've gotten much better about it.
Love the new format, for non-tutorials anyway. I would love a video about the specifics of marth movement, and optimal Marth neutral, although this may be too specific of a topic.
Jackal VonStone wavelanding from ledge back to ledge? it's just a mix up, and it looks kind of cool, mainly its just to throw off the opponents timing if they seem to be ready for an invincible ledge dash, then you can hax dash to bait the reaction and THEN do your ledge dash.
Coach McGuirk I know how it works, but I kinda just want to see a video about it. I'm a Marth/C.Falcon main and I think learning the different timings for both characters in video format would be helpful to me.
You don't even have to bait a reaction for haxdash to be effective. Haxdash forces the opponent to react to Falcon standing on the ledge (+ hanging on the edge) as opposed to Falcon hanging on the edge.
I'm a Falcon main & I've been learning how to Haxdash. I have figured out the inputs, which are tap away or tap down to let go of edge, then immediately jump, hold towards stage, then do a downward angle
I'm focusing on getting better at Project M right now, and this video helped me to realize that my punish game was very weak (and I main Snake, who is *the* punish character in PM, IMO). I'm going to start grinding away at my punish game in isolation and see how it works out for me. TBH, this video applies to a lot of fighting games (Smash or no) in various ways, and it helps me to look at things a little differently than before. Thanks, SSBM-T Crew! :D
For analysis videos like this, I enjoy this facecam format. For How-to's, I believe the old traditional format works best. I wouldn't mind having both to mix it up a bit. Sick vid as always.
kira somehow has a "good look" for face cam videos. I can't explain it. BUT - while this new format isn't necessarily bad, I'd like it to only be used when it's effective, when a topic is too abstract to only show with examples and so on. one of the great strengths of this channel is its clearness: you always get clear examples of everything that is explained. never prioritize format over content- that is, only pick a format if it truly serves the content! also, I'd like for the series that has already been going on for a while (i.e. "are you an X player" etc) to remain the way they are: without face cam. continuity and consistency is important, and those videos has already proved to work amazingly without face cam. anyway, nice video as always. I'm exited to see how you develop your channel, and I always look forward to every upload. :)
I love this style, it feels like I'm having a real discussion with you about the topic at hand and you answer my questions, that makes Melee more meaningful and this info much better remembered.
I'm not sure what it is about being able to SEE you while you describe things but it actually helped my comprehension with the video. You seem to have a good idea of when a game play clip is necessary, which is also very helpful.
Yeah I LOVE this new format. Showing in real time what you're explaining (like m2k vs mango on FD) is perfect to help me understand what you mean. Definitely keep this style up lol
I think this is a really good format for some discussion topics, it'll flesh itself out when you have more of them to talk about; one could be the facts on the controller controversy that's going on right now. I'd personally like to see a video on exactly what to setup on 20XX and how to practice specific tech skill. Having 20XX myself, it's hard to determine what exact parameters to setup to actually improve and work on, what to look for, and what to actually work on with it. That all by itself would be a really good video.
Thanks a ton for this video! I totally agree that the punish game is more important. No matter how many times I win neutral, if my opponent wins neutral less than me but kills me faster, I lose. This happens a lot since I haven't had the time to focus and practice my punish game as much as I'd like to since I have been dealing with fixing my low grades in college. As important as the neutral game is, I feel like it only becomes MORE important than the punish game if both players have an equally strong punish game. If one player has a stronger punish game, odds are they will win more often because they need to win the neutral game less times than their opponent does.
I really liked this format, and the more theory oriented content. Don't get me wrong, I love character specific guides and matchup information, but developing a strong mental game is so important in the long run.
To be fair I wasn't too much into this channel (only watched a couple of vids before this one months ago), however the format of this video made it very approachable since it actually felt like someone was talking to me instead of just some voice and footage of the showcased tutorial. Maybe it's just the fact that Kira appeared on this video but it felt more, human so to speak.
Thought this was a cool approach and vid. A friend of mine and I actually had a similar conversation recently. He brought up something akin to what you were saying about the more recent meta revolving around the punish game, and we proposed that since there are more players now that know about super great competitors, but don't live in super strong regions or have access to incredible players, people focus more on playing "optimally." This leans more towards punish game in my opinion. Practicing and solidifying "guaranteed" punishes, or safe pressure as opposed to being able to mentally break down, download, or manipulate your opponent. The latter things usually require much more time with the game, and other players, whereas you can simply practice punish game anywhere lol I don't personally think that it's necessarily a better way to play, but I do think that it's a more practical way to progress when you don't have highly skilled people to play against regularly. When playing against other players who are "up and coming" or beginning, the punish game will definitely give you the edge. It's almost like the beginner tech ceiling. Without a certain amount of tech, you'll most likely lose to anyone else that has that tech. BUT, I think that once you begin to play players who have solid punish games, and legitimate skills in neutral, the sole focus on punish game proves detrimental. Being able to detect baits, or condition your opponent are paramount in competitive fighting games. It's hard to cheese really solid players, so you should definitely have a strong sense of positioning, defensive options (if hit, or if shielding a hit), and mix-ups or you'll get destroyed before making it to where your punish game can shine.
I feel like a lot of people think of punish and neutral as if there's some kind of trade-off between the two. In reality, having a great punish game and having a great neutral game are complimentary skills that should both be improved upon in unison. Players may have certain strengths or be good at specific things, but a good neutral with no punish is useless, as demonstrated in this video, while a good punish game with no neutral will leave you getting punished heavily yourself. If you had all the time in the world, sure, practice your punish game because it never hurts to, but playing with other players and thinking critically about the neutral while still experimenting with your punish game is the best way to improve in my opinion.
I really liked this format, it seems more like a friendly conversation of a high-level smasher teaching a young padawan how he can improve, which I'm sure is how a lot of other new-ish smashers like to learn as well.
I mean the way i see it, melee's technical skill is so in depth compared to other 2d fighters that, honestly, you shouldn't even bother practicing neutral you master wavedashing and L canceling with over 90% consistency, and you begin to develop a basic punish game plan. Once your movement is good enough to do basic combo's I'd say it's important to start practicing neutral along with your punish game to avoid plateauing later on. I guess neutral is more important, but like you said punish game is much more practical and requires a LOT more in game practice.
Minimu5e I play Melee and other 2D fighters, and I honestly hate when other melee fanboys say that melee's tech is a ton more in depth than other 2D fighters cuz that shows how ignorant these people are with other fighters. I love Melee, it's definitely a lot more technical than Smash 4, Street Fighter and MK, but it rivals games like GG series and older fighting games like MVC2 in terms of technicality and depth.
I love this! Good stuff. I like this format a lot as well. And the info: even if it's something I've thought of before, it's phrased in a way that makes me rethink it, so good stuff. Really liked this video. Btw.: IC's main here. And Neutral is definitely more important, might be character depended as well. But that's what I feel.
i pretty much exclusively practice movement and punish game, but it doesn't take me too far. i rarely play against human opponents so i usually find it very difficult to even find an opening or get a hit on an opponent more skilled than me. aka, you need neutral skill too
He says that I already know who it is at the beginning of the video but I'm always surprised that it is Kira! I mean who has the foresight to know who it is everytime!? but for real love the videos
You should do a video guide on the marth ditto. It is a very volatile matchup that is very difficult if you don't know the basic guidelines for what to do
Don't agree with you on that. Yes, his techskill is very flashy, but not dumb. When he lands a shine, he can often get a huge punish off of it and sometimes 0-deaths. So not just Dumb Technical, because his punishgame is amazing.
I know I’m like super late, but punish is massively underrated especially at time of recording. No one has a perfect neutral but nigh perfect punish is a must have at top level play because you can just grind it out. If you have bad neutral but amazing punish, it doesn’t matter because you only have to win neutral 7-8 times a game to win which is not a lot. If you have amazing neutral and bad punish, you’re neutral win rate has to be amazing. Also, neutral is (mostly) dependent on player which is radically different from player to player but punish game is based on character (mostly). So learning neutral first is learning the game backwards.
I agree with what the video seems to be implying. Punish game is more important to focus on for newer players with less access to other people because it is more of the fighting game side is melee, where you can basically muscle memory your way from the opening to the kill, while neutral is something that is learned over time.
This semester I played almost every day with people from my uni, most of whom happen to be considerably worse than me, but because of school I didn't go to many tournaments. I didn't drop very many games unless someone good came to play (it's a very casual setting in the middle of a big city so ppl would just drop by). What I didn't realize until later is that by beating up on scrubs all semester, my punish game slowly became pretty nasty, to the point where I can comfortably take games off players who I used to consider much better than me. Since I realized this, I've started focusing a lot on more the neutral game, because I'm confident in my ability to get a wicked fat punish off most openings. tl;dr: I believe the best way to improve is to focus on punish first, neutral after. It's the exact same reason we tell day 1 scrubs to grind tech skill before facing people - once the tech (punish) becomes second nature to execute, you can start using your brain on how to find the openings.
Chess grand masters say that you should study the endgame, and then the opening. Their theory was that the opening is too abstract to study, but the endgame was very definite because of the lack of options available to both players. I think this applies to Melee and I've been applying this with moderate success.
I would say it depends on the character. Some can easily kill at mid-high % without larger combos or setups so all they need to do is win neutral to rack up %. Some just need to win neutral once and have a much easier time killing with it, so even if they lose neutral a few times that's fine.
its a mix of both for sure, but i feel like taking the time to learn the neutral game will ultimately take you further in the long run. The punish game is something thats already pretty set in stone for each top tier character, but the neutral game is so broad since it has more to do with human nature and habits
Regarding those new types of videos, I think a mix of both would be better, or you could use this type of video on certain subject. For Exemple, game analysis or something like it. Regarding the neutral VS punish, I think there needs to be a good balance between both of them, but I have strong preference for the punish game since once you win neutral, if you can take a stock, you did your job!
I do hope the neutral game gets more coverage. Right now as a mediocre player at best with no reliable practice partners I'm struggling a lot just to find the right material to study, what to look for and how to practice it.
I think both are VERY VERY important. As such i make a great effort to improve both aspects as best as possible. Someone in the yoshi skype group way back when it existed answered a match up question i had with "one touch death and don't get hit" and while i'm fairly positive as yoshi there are times you need to get hit to win the neutral, i subscribe to the mentality that they're both very important to practice and learn, and that neutral game can be grinded out just as hard as tech skill once you learn what to look for. That said yoshi's neutral game is limited, but interesting regardless, and in a situation where your opponent can one touch kill you (incert ics here, or any character who can combo you to death reliably) then honestly your two options are to repetitively winning neutral, or win neutral then hope your punish game is on point. My punish game isn't always on point so i do my best to use the former. Just my opinion on the matter though. (PS; neutral game is too much fun to give up on. especially when you use it to beat someone better skilled in tech than you are)
1:08 Not necessarily, because you can't always GET a guaranteed combo, that they can't possibly escape from, that will lead to death. A more accurate description is just that you always get the most possible damage that it is possible to get from that opening you got in neutral.
I feel like whichever you focus on when practicing, the other will slowly build as you get better. (e.g. I practice punish game, so my neutral builds at a slower rate as I get better)
untill high level, it's the punish game that matters the most but at high level unless you can get a stock everytime you get a hit ( which is realistically impossible) then the Neutral game matters more this is why westballs get's beat up by high level players and demolishes everybody else
I think it sort of depends on the character and the player. I say character, because you can look at a character like Peach or Luigi or Samus who have great neutral games, but have trouble finishing off those stocks sometimes. And then there are characters like Captain Falcon and Pikachu who have awful neutral games, but can erase stocks with one small opening. And then there's the player. Fox and Falco both have fantastic neutral games and punish games, but someone could play Falco and be fantastic at neutral but awful at the punish, or play Fox and be bad at neutral, but amazing at the punish. There are some variables here, but I think overall you need the punish game to succeed. It's literally the icing on the cake, what completes you game. Neutral is definitely important, no doubt, but the harder you punish, the better you are.
please give me some tips, I'm having some trouble playing super smash bros melee. my brother keeps beating me, he is 18 I'm 10, so I'm a pretty hound player. I'm good but I can't beat him easily. I get really mad and not want to play the game anymore...
Next time you play him, watch what he's doing to hit you. Are you jumping in and getting grabbed, are you running into fsmashes, are you getting gimped, is he killing you when you recover, etc, etc. Find out where you're making your mistakes, list out all the things you can do instead, practice doing the new stuff, and when you play him, mix it up and don't be predictable.
I'm relatively new to the Melee competitive scene (I'm not a player. I'm just a spectator), but in my opinion, I think the Neutral Game is more important than the Punish Game. However, I think that this argument is kind of like the Tier list system. It comes down to what style suits the player and which character can bring out that particular style. Just because Fox is considered the best character in Melee doesn't mean that someone is guaranteed a tournament win or heck even Top 8 (Leffen vs Duck anyone?). Just because I think the Neutral Game is more important it doesn't mean it's for everyone. Like you guys said, some people thrive with the Punish Game. No matter what style is being shown or whether people perfer the Neutral or Punish Game, I think we can all agree that seeing great competitive matches in Smash benefits us all.
Exactly what people asked for the last comment section holy shit you guys are beast. How to get better and an insight into the pros all at once, amazing :P
as a newer player who hasn't gone to any tournies or played many friendies i would say neutral game is harder to learn and seems harder to practice to me, therefore more important. playing only 20xx (vanilla with random di, not the crazy cpu) so far i can already tell that i have bad habits when approaching and neglecting to dash-dance efficiently
Hit confirming and comboing is the first level of experience in any fighting game, neutral is way more important. Combo extensions are mixups in themselves. A good neutral game is not getting converted off of if you whiff.
Perfect neutral game doesn't always mean you're never getting hit, because humans have reaction time. A perfect neutral for humans would just mean that they're playing in a way that gives them the highest chance to win the game possible. A player with perfect neutral game understands the weakness that is reaction time, and knows how to play with and against it to create the largest advantage possible over the imperfect opponent
for that list of "textbook" punish game list at the end, wouldnt sheik just be m2k again? I'm actually thinking about it right now and all the other ones [minus ICs and luigi, I dont pay much attention to them] and all those people with those characters are actually very spot on for that description "textbook punish game" makes me happy to see the diversity of characters and people lol.
The punish game affects the mindset of the player involved. For the m2k example with nairing in, it doesn't remove the option it just dissuades the player from doing it because it isn't good in a risk/reward sense. Part of a good neutral is understanding what is good in that aspect, so nairing in didn't become bad it just always was bad when paired against a marth in CC percent. But at the same time if the marth doesn't have to worry about nairing in then he can just start doing late shffle ariels safely and push the fox back into a corner, at which point a nair in is amazing. You don't ever want to remove the tool entirely, just understand what you are covering. Mango isn't just nairing in because fuck it let's nair baby, he's doing it because he thinks it will beat what m2k is going to do which could be dashing without CC or an attempted jump or shielding at improper spacing. So yes the punish game affects the neutral, but the neutral also affects the punish game. Knowing what to go for to get the most out of the hits you do land and less damage from counterhits basically IS a great neutral. Even a player like PP that can get stray hits more often gets them to limit options and pseudo extend combos.
Punish game is easier to improve at a low level but I feel when it comes to mid vs high the neutral is what separates players at the highest level from a mid tier player. This is why I feel players switching from brawl or now smash 4 see the most improvement because a lot of the game for them revolves in neutral. Just my thoughts on the subject both equally important
i believe that neutral wins in most situations, maybe 55-45 or 60-40. a good punish game can beat a good neutral game if it is that high of a level, because what good is keeping them away hit by hit when the one time they get a hit you die? while at the same time if you struggle in neutral you could make poor choices that are easily capitilized on and you may never land a hit. one of the best examples of neutral vs punish game is Summit 2 PPMD vs Westballz they both play Falco, and the only difference is PPMD has an amazing neutral, while Westballz has an amazing punish game.
The fact that your combo game can win games for you is why a lot of fighting game players dislike melee. I think it's an interesting thing that makes smash different, but I still think the focus should be in the neutral.
Spoiler Alert: It's both.
NVM
I like the format, as well as the other. Both are good for different types of videos.
ayyyyyy
Shoutouts to you
It is interesting how a low liked comment is top because Im subcribed to them. Cool how that works TBH
Yayayayayayayayayayayayayaayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayayahoooooooooooooooooooooo
I'm always amazed by how crazy Leffen and Armada's punish games are
one touch very often leads to death
Attention Everyone. This new format DOES NOT mean we are going to ditch standard tutorials all together. We are just trying to provide a variety of content as well as a means to provide more "meta" videos or videos that talk about things in the meta game rather than step by step tutorials. We are uploading these along side our standard tutorials where there will be no facecam due to the focus being on only the gameplay. Since this is a "meta" video, the focus is on the discussion of it and the gameplay examples. Thank you everyone for the feedback
Nice to see new stuff. Keep at it.
This new setup is fine as long as the standard format just comes more often
SSBM Tutorials As long as its quality stuff then there is no reason to worry about it. Its good stuff and helps with all aspects od the game. If people dont like it, too bad. It's your channel and you want to have fun with it.
Nintega94 /\
New format is good as long as the old one stays as well ofc
I think this is important. I was a dumb tech skill Marth. I'd practice going as fast as possible and doing useless Wavelands and what not and I was losing like 90% of my matches. then I switched to peach and used her very practically because of her limited movement and started winning a lot more sets because I utilized good neutral and punish games. that then transfered back to my Marth and now I use both and get good results
Aldo Raine what do you practice for faster movement w peach?
Aldo Raine also love the inglorious basterds reverence
Tooglian Primus it's not do much about being fast but in that sense of how fox is fast. I usually try to keep my spacing correct and utilize her float cancel to get moves out quickly. also her wavedash and Waveland isn't as bad as people think. try to work on getting the full length out of those. I play a more bait and punish style with her but there are more approaches to Peach as well
I was exactly the same, but with Fox. I was always trying to be flashy, but it was rarely practical or purposeful. It's still a habit that I'm trying to break, actually, but I've gotten much better about it.
Neutral game? Funny way to spell spindas-
Wrong channel
Cyrekt Lmao
This new format is a dope way to mix things up, as long as the old one stays
Love the new format, for non-tutorials anyway. I would love a video about the specifics of marth movement, and optimal Marth neutral, although this may be too specific of a topic.
we have a couple videos on that already!
kira this is a great new format, you're a natural in front of the camera
This a great format. I think a video about haxdashing would be helpful.
Jackal VonStone wavelanding from ledge back to ledge? it's just a mix up, and it looks kind of cool, mainly its just to throw off the opponents timing if they seem to be ready for an invincible ledge dash, then you can hax dash to bait the reaction and THEN do your ledge dash.
oh shit nice video
Coach McGuirk I know how it works, but I kinda just want to see a video about it. I'm a Marth/C.Falcon main and I think learning the different timings for both characters in video format would be helpful to me.
You don't even have to bait a reaction for haxdash to be effective. Haxdash forces the opponent to react to Falcon standing on the ledge (+ hanging on the edge) as opposed to Falcon hanging on the edge.
I'm a Falcon main & I've been learning how to Haxdash. I have figured out the inputs, which are tap away or tap down to let go of edge, then immediately jump, hold towards stage, then do a downward angle
I'm focusing on getting better at Project M right now, and this video helped me to realize that my punish game was very weak (and I main Snake, who is *the* punish character in PM, IMO). I'm going to start grinding away at my punish game in isolation and see how it works out for me. TBH, this video applies to a lot of fighting games (Smash or no) in various ways, and it helps me to look at things a little differently than before. Thanks, SSBM-T Crew! :D
People to watch for a textbook punish game:
ICs - "LOL"
LOOOOL
"falcon punish game- Stomp > Knee" -Kira 2016
Remember that comment you wrote to that guy who asked for falcon's punish game?
this new format is clean af
For analysis videos like this, I enjoy this facecam format. For How-to's, I believe the old traditional format works best. I wouldn't mind having both to mix it up a bit. Sick vid as always.
I think this format is great, both are amazing imo, as long as you keep releasing great videos!
kira somehow has a "good look" for face cam videos. I can't explain it.
BUT - while this new format isn't necessarily bad, I'd like it to only be used when it's effective, when a topic is too abstract to only show with examples and so on. one of the great strengths of this channel is its clearness: you always get clear examples of everything that is explained. never prioritize format over content- that is, only pick a format if it truly serves the content!
also, I'd like for the series that has already been going on for a while (i.e. "are you an X player" etc) to remain the way they are: without face cam. continuity and consistency is important, and those videos has already proved to work amazingly without face cam.
anyway, nice video as always. I'm exited to see how you develop your channel, and I always look forward to every upload. :)
When is the sheik needle video coming out?
when the wobbling video comes out
when the jab tutorial comes out
Calugrey when smash switch comes out
big fan of this format. the cuts to gameplay are very professional and I found it to work well.
I love this style, it feels like I'm having a real discussion with you about the topic at hand and you answer my questions, that makes Melee more meaningful and this info much better remembered.
Grind out that punish game guys
I'm not sure what it is about being able to SEE you while you describe things but it actually helped my comprehension with the video.
You seem to have a good idea of when a game play clip is necessary, which is also very helpful.
Yeah I LOVE this new format. Showing in real time what you're explaining (like m2k vs mango on FD) is perfect to help me understand what you mean. Definitely keep this style up lol
Ice Climbers with a textbook punish game "lol" XD. Great video guys.
I really dig this style of video, having examples of clips instead of just melee the whole time makes it easier to watch imo
I like the new format, keep up the good content dude.
Yo dude had fun playing you at eden, I like the live action stuff keep it up :)
Good timing; for fans of m2k's punish game, UGC was an immensely fun tournament.
Also I like seeing you talk at the camera, it felt professional.
I like both formats. This one was a nice change of pace and works pretty well, imo. It's like having a nice chat with Kira!
This will probably create some good discussion. Great video Kira!
I think this is a really good format for some discussion topics, it'll flesh itself out when you have more of them to talk about; one could be the facts on the controller controversy that's going on right now. I'd personally like to see a video on exactly what to setup on 20XX and how to practice specific tech skill. Having 20XX myself, it's hard to determine what exact parameters to setup to actually improve and work on, what to look for, and what to actually work on with it. That all by itself would be a really good video.
I like the new format, it feel much more personal. Its nice to see the man behind it all every once and awhile.
new video style was dope. keep up the good work homie
Definitely like this format! Much more laid back. Keep it up!
Thanks a ton for this video! I totally agree that the punish game is more important. No matter how many times I win neutral, if my opponent wins neutral less than me but kills me faster, I lose. This happens a lot since I haven't had the time to focus and practice my punish game as much as I'd like to since I have been dealing with fixing my low grades in college. As important as the neutral game is, I feel like it only becomes MORE important than the punish game if both players have an equally strong punish game. If one player has a stronger punish game, odds are they will win more often because they need to win the neutral game less times than their opponent does.
Great Video! By the way, congratz on Prof at Eden! It makes me happy to see the teacher out here bodying fools.
really liked the new style of video 👍
I really liked this format, and the more theory oriented content. Don't get me wrong, I love character specific guides and matchup information, but developing a strong mental game is so important in the long run.
To be fair I wasn't too much into this channel (only watched a couple of vids before this one months ago), however the format of this video made it very approachable since it actually felt like someone was talking to me instead of just some voice and footage of the showcased tutorial. Maybe it's just the fact that Kira appeared on this video but it felt more, human so to speak.
Thought this was a cool approach and vid. A friend of mine and I actually had a similar conversation recently. He brought up something akin to what you were saying about the more recent meta revolving around the punish game, and we proposed that since there are more players now that know about super great competitors, but don't live in super strong regions or have access to incredible players, people focus more on playing "optimally." This leans more towards punish game in my opinion. Practicing and solidifying "guaranteed" punishes, or safe pressure as opposed to being able to mentally break down, download, or manipulate your opponent. The latter things usually require much more time with the game, and other players, whereas you can simply practice punish game anywhere lol
I don't personally think that it's necessarily a better way to play, but I do think that it's a more practical way to progress when you don't have highly skilled people to play against regularly. When playing against other players who are "up and coming" or beginning, the punish game will definitely give you the edge. It's almost like the beginner tech ceiling. Without a certain amount of tech, you'll most likely lose to anyone else that has that tech. BUT, I think that once you begin to play players who have solid punish games, and legitimate skills in neutral, the sole focus on punish game proves detrimental. Being able to detect baits, or condition your opponent are paramount in competitive fighting games. It's hard to cheese really solid players, so you should definitely have a strong sense of positioning, defensive options (if hit, or if shielding a hit), and mix-ups or you'll get destroyed before making it to where your punish game can shine.
The format in the video is fine pretty much what you want to do. As long as visual examples are included, it's all good.
I feel like a lot of people think of punish and neutral as if there's some kind of trade-off between the two. In reality, having a great punish game and having a great neutral game are complimentary skills that should both be improved upon in unison. Players may have certain strengths or be good at specific things, but a good neutral with no punish is useless, as demonstrated in this video, while a good punish game with no neutral will leave you getting punished heavily yourself. If you had all the time in the world, sure, practice your punish game because it never hurts to, but playing with other players and thinking critically about the neutral while still experimenting with your punish game is the best way to improve in my opinion.
I really liked this format, it seems more like a friendly conversation of a high-level smasher teaching a young padawan how he can improve, which I'm sure is how a lot of other new-ish smashers like to learn as well.
This video is still super informative, honestly melee is probably the game where advantage state matters the most
Loved this new format. Much more information is delivered
I mean the way i see it, melee's technical skill is so in depth compared to other 2d fighters that, honestly, you shouldn't even bother practicing neutral you master wavedashing and L canceling with over 90% consistency, and you begin to develop a basic punish game plan. Once your movement is good enough to do basic combo's I'd say it's important to start practicing neutral along with your punish game to avoid plateauing later on. I guess neutral is more important, but like you said punish game is much more practical and requires a LOT more in game practice.
Minimu5e I play Melee and other 2D fighters, and I honestly hate when other melee fanboys say that melee's tech is a ton more in depth than other 2D fighters cuz that shows how ignorant these people are with other fighters. I love Melee, it's definitely a lot more technical than Smash 4, Street Fighter and MK, but it rivals games like GG series and older fighting games like MVC2 in terms of technicality and depth.
Bruce Wayne agreed
I love this! Good stuff. I like this format a lot as well. And the info: even if it's something I've thought of before, it's phrased in a way that makes me rethink it, so good stuff. Really liked this video.
Btw.: IC's main here. And Neutral is definitely more important, might be character depended as well. But that's what I feel.
i pretty much exclusively practice movement and punish game, but it doesn't take me too far. i rarely play against human opponents so i usually find it very difficult to even find an opening or get a hit on an opponent more skilled than me. aka, you need neutral skill too
I'm waiting for a tutorial on westballz style shield pressure
I do like this format vety well, still good that you guys still incorperate the visuals in, I say go with this format and use it more often.
He says that I already know who it is at the beginning of the video but I'm always surprised that it is Kira! I mean who has the foresight to know who it is everytime!? but for real love the videos
I like the new format. Keep up the good work!
You should do a video guide on the marth ditto. It is a very volatile matchup that is very difficult if you don't know the basic guidelines for what to do
This is great! Thanks Kira!
Dumb Technical = WeshBaws
Still love him
Don't agree with you on that. Yes, his techskill is very flashy, but not dumb. When he lands a shine, he can often get a huge punish off of it and sometimes 0-deaths. So not just Dumb Technical, because his punishgame is amazing.
Its Tip he used to not be as smart
But he often loses to players not considered better than him.
could you do a vid on all the new 20xx features in 4.05
the most useful ones are in the "how to practice fox" video, i think 3.02 is overall better for practice
I know I’m like super late, but punish is massively underrated especially at time of recording. No one has a perfect neutral but nigh perfect punish is a must have at top level play because you can just grind it out. If you have bad neutral but amazing punish, it doesn’t matter because you only have to win neutral 7-8 times a game to win which is not a lot. If you have amazing neutral and bad punish, you’re neutral win rate has to be amazing. Also, neutral is (mostly) dependent on player which is radically different from player to player but punish game is based on character (mostly). So learning neutral first is learning the game backwards.
I really liked this format. Felt more laid back and personal. Almost like chatting about Melee with a better player.
I agree with what the video seems to be implying. Punish game is more important to focus on for newer players with less access to other people because it is more of the fighting game side is melee, where you can basically muscle memory your way from the opening to the kill, while neutral is something that is learned over time.
This semester I played almost every day with people from my uni, most of whom happen to be considerably worse than me, but because of school I didn't go to many tournaments. I didn't drop very many games unless someone good came to play (it's a very casual setting in the middle of a big city so ppl would just drop by). What I didn't realize until later is that by beating up on scrubs all semester, my punish game slowly became pretty nasty, to the point where I can comfortably take games off players who I used to consider much better than me. Since I realized this, I've started focusing a lot on more the neutral game, because I'm confident in my ability to get a wicked fat punish off most openings.
tl;dr: I believe the best way to improve is to focus on punish first, neutral after. It's the exact same reason we tell day 1 scrubs to grind tech skill before facing people - once the tech (punish) becomes second nature to execute, you can start using your brain on how to find the openings.
Chess grand masters say that you should study the endgame, and then the opening. Their theory was that the opening is too abstract to study, but the endgame was very definite because of the lack of options available to both players. I think this applies to Melee and I've been applying this with moderate success.
Saw you at eden. Your tutorials are sick man.
really like this format! It's its just a nice change,hope to see both tho.
Does the width or the length of the rectangle contribute more to its area?
So, I suppose the answer is to determine if the punish game or neutral game is one's "width".
very interesting take, but not far from logical.
so it's different for everyone? you basically need to practice what you're lacking to improve more
This analogy just blew my mind
WAit I never understood this question's relevance until now LMAO. The ratio isn't 50-50 it's more skewed towards punish imo
I would say it depends on the character. Some can easily kill at mid-high % without larger combos or setups so all they need to do is win neutral to rack up %. Some just need to win neutral once and have a much easier time killing with it, so even if they lose neutral a few times that's fine.
Love the format!
Would like to see a video about 20XX, and its various features in the latest version, as well as its advantages and where to get it
its a mix of both for sure, but i feel like taking the time to learn the neutral game will ultimately take you further in the long run. The punish game is something thats already pretty set in stone for each top tier character, but the neutral game is so broad since it has more to do with human nature and habits
Regarding those new types of videos, I think a mix of both would be better, or you could use this type of video on certain subject. For Exemple, game analysis or something like it.
Regarding the neutral VS punish, I think there needs to be a good balance between both of them, but I have strong preference for the punish game since once you win neutral, if you can take a stock, you did your job!
I do hope the neutral game gets more coverage. Right now as a mediocre player at best with no reliable practice partners I'm struggling a lot just to find the right material to study, what to look for and how to practice it.
I think both are VERY VERY important. As such i make a great effort to improve both aspects as best as possible. Someone in the yoshi skype group way back when it existed answered a match up question i had with "one touch death and don't get hit" and while i'm fairly positive as yoshi there are times you need to get hit to win the neutral, i subscribe to the mentality that they're both very important to practice and learn, and that neutral game can be grinded out just as hard as tech skill once you learn what to look for.
That said yoshi's neutral game is limited, but interesting regardless, and in a situation where your opponent can one touch kill you (incert ics here, or any character who can combo you to death reliably) then honestly your two options are to repetitively winning neutral, or win neutral then hope your punish game is on point. My punish game isn't always on point so i do my best to use the former.
Just my opinion on the matter though.
(PS; neutral game is too much fun to give up on. especially when you use it to beat someone better skilled in tech than you are)
Good vid Kira, new style works well
i prefer these videos WAYYY MORE, they help me out A LOT
1:08 Not necessarily, because you can't always GET a guaranteed combo, that they can't possibly escape from, that will lead to death. A more accurate description is just that you always get the most possible damage that it is possible to get from that opening you got in neutral.
Id really like to see a fox vs falco guide video! I have been maining falco for a while but I think I might be seeing more potential in my fox
I feel like whichever you focus on when practicing, the other will slowly build as you get better. (e.g. I practice punish game, so my neutral builds at a slower rate as I get better)
I think adding your face is a great element for this channel. I would suggest having your face in your videos every now and then
God of Neutral: M2K
God of Punish: Armada
God of Spacing: PPMD
untill high level, it's the punish game that matters the most
but at high level unless you can get a stock everytime you get a hit ( which is realistically impossible) then the Neutral game matters more
this is why westballs get's beat up by high level players and demolishes everybody else
Liking this series, Kira!
I think it sort of depends on the character and the player. I say character, because you can look at a character like Peach or Luigi or Samus who have great neutral games, but have trouble finishing off those stocks sometimes. And then there are characters like Captain Falcon and Pikachu who have awful neutral games, but can erase stocks with one small opening.
And then there's the player. Fox and Falco both have fantastic neutral games and punish games, but someone could play Falco and be fantastic at neutral but awful at the punish, or play Fox and be bad at neutral, but amazing at the punish. There are some variables here, but I think overall you need the punish game to succeed. It's literally the icing on the cake, what completes you game. Neutral is definitely important, no doubt, but the harder you punish, the better you are.
This video was awesome, I love this format
please give me some tips, I'm having some trouble playing super smash bros melee. my brother keeps beating me, he is 18 I'm 10, so I'm a pretty hound player. I'm good but I can't beat him easily. I get really mad and not want to play the game anymore...
Redthewolf •w• grind it out you'll beat him eventually.
lino332 Okay
Next time you play him, watch what he's doing to hit you. Are you jumping in and getting grabbed, are you running into fsmashes, are you getting gimped, is he killing you when you recover, etc, etc.
Find out where you're making your mistakes, list out all the things you can do instead, practice doing the new stuff, and when you play him, mix it up and don't be predictable.
AbuOsama29 Okay! he is fsmashing me sometimes, mostly dsmashing me... he edge guards, shield grabs, many things...
AbuOsama29 I can sometimes read his moves when he plays C.Falcon
I'm relatively new to the Melee competitive scene (I'm not a player. I'm just a spectator), but in my opinion, I think the Neutral Game is more important than the Punish Game. However, I think that this argument is kind of like the Tier list system. It comes down to what style suits the player and which character can bring out that particular style. Just because Fox is considered the best character in Melee doesn't mean that someone is guaranteed a tournament win or heck even Top 8 (Leffen vs Duck anyone?). Just because I think the Neutral Game is more important it doesn't mean it's for everyone. Like you guys said, some people thrive with the Punish Game. No matter what style is being shown or whether people perfer the Neutral or Punish Game, I think we can all agree that seeing great competitive matches in Smash benefits us all.
Exactly what people asked for the last comment section holy shit you guys are beast. How to get better and an insight into the pros all at once, amazing :P
I would definitely recommend watching plup for punish game help with Samus. When he gets a grab vs spacies he has great platform tech chases
as a newer player who hasn't gone to any tournies or played many friendies i would say neutral game is harder to learn and seems harder to practice to me, therefore more important. playing only 20xx (vanilla with random di, not the crazy cpu) so far i can already tell that i have bad habits when approaching and neglecting to dash-dance efficiently
Kira?! I thought this was Duck!!
JurgaBurgaFlintines
ah jeez
You can tell it's not duck because his face is moving.
Hit confirming and comboing is the first level of experience in any fighting game, neutral is way more important. Combo extensions are mixups in themselves. A good neutral game is not getting converted off of if you whiff.
Perfect neutral game doesn't always mean you're never getting hit, because humans have reaction time. A perfect neutral for humans would just mean that they're playing in a way that gives them the highest chance to win the game possible. A player with perfect neutral game understands the weakness that is reaction time, and knows how to play with and against it to create the largest advantage possible over the imperfect opponent
You know that the perfect neutral is not possible for humans. He is talking about inhuman..
for that list of "textbook" punish game list at the end, wouldnt sheik just be m2k again?
I'm actually thinking about it right now and all the other ones [minus ICs and luigi, I dont pay much attention to them] and all those people with those characters are actually very spot on for that description "textbook punish game" makes me happy to see the diversity of characters and people lol.
The punish game affects the mindset of the player involved. For the m2k example with nairing in, it doesn't remove the option it just dissuades the player from doing it because it isn't good in a risk/reward sense. Part of a good neutral is understanding what is good in that aspect, so nairing in didn't become bad it just always was bad when paired against a marth in CC percent. But at the same time if the marth doesn't have to worry about nairing in then he can just start doing late shffle ariels safely and push the fox back into a corner, at which point a nair in is amazing. You don't ever want to remove the tool entirely, just understand what you are covering. Mango isn't just nairing in because fuck it let's nair baby, he's doing it because he thinks it will beat what m2k is going to do which could be dashing without CC or an attempted jump or shielding at improper spacing. So yes the punish game affects the neutral, but the neutral also affects the punish game. Knowing what to go for to get the most out of the hits you do land and less damage from counterhits basically IS a great neutral. Even a player like PP that can get stray hits more often gets them to limit options and pseudo extend combos.
Punish game is easier to improve at a low level but I feel when it comes to mid vs high the neutral is what separates players at the highest level from a mid tier player. This is why I feel players switching from brawl or now smash 4 see the most improvement because a lot of the game for them revolves in neutral. Just my thoughts on the subject both equally important
good shit. been thinking this for a while so been grinding but nice to have it affirmed by a non-noob.
I'd like to see, how to BEAT peach. A lot of people have trouble with this matchup including me. I'm a Sheik main
i believe that neutral wins in most situations, maybe 55-45 or 60-40. a good punish game can beat a good neutral game if it is that high of a level, because what good is keeping them away hit by hit when the one time they get a hit you die?
while at the same time if you struggle in neutral you could make poor choices that are easily capitilized on and you may never land a hit. one of the best examples of neutral vs punish game is
Summit 2 PPMD vs Westballz
they both play Falco, and the only difference is PPMD has an amazing neutral, while Westballz has an amazing punish game.
I liked this video! Now I'm motivated to improve my Punish game. Thank you!
The fact that your combo game can win games for you is why a lot of fighting game players dislike melee. I think it's an interesting thing that makes smash different, but I still think the focus should be in the neutral.
i personally prefer the old format, but i like this to. maybe you can do like the streamer style where you're in a small part of the video, boxed off
I fall under the dumb technical :(
I liked series! More videos like this!