The Deliberate Crash That Changed Formula 1
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#f1 #formula1 #crashgate
Massa has stated he doesn't want the Championship overturned, it's too late for that. He has stated that he simply wants answers from the FIA and this was the only way to get them.
Massa is a good man.
I personally think Bernie is lying. Mosley and Bernie were definitely not fans of Ron Dennis and after 2007 if there was a way to have stopped Mclaren winning a championship O think they'd have done it. Also with the things Bernie says these days I wouldn't believe anything he said.
Bernie was and will be stupid:- charles😂😂
Sad facts : Alonso is biggest cheater and bigest loser in motorsport who can get away from getting disqualified or race ban after doing dirty driving. He is the spanish one of biggest fraud who can brainwash people by playing victim which is pathetic.
Yeah? Where did he say that?
The thing I find amazing is how Alonso has been a mere bystander at more than one of F1's biggest controversies... always a beneficiary of them but seemingly never knowing or being involved
I've always found that a tad suspicious.
There was no proof that Alonso knew of the plan so there are grounds to accuse him of knowing about it.
Those who follow F1 will know that he gets involved with team decisions & does not just follow orders without question. He pitted at a very unusual time.
I'm sure he knew about it but it's on Briatore for making the call
Cause he's a douchebag, he acts innocently but is always part in all these scandals
They don't call it EL PLAN for nothing...
The hardest part about all this is that the people who benefited (or lost) the most from this crash were all innocent parties. It's so much easier when its the winner who has cheated.
Yea like it will be unfair for rosberg to lose his podium and massa's loss in singapore is more of ferrari's fault (remember massa dnf because of botched refueling)
@@kevinhanandi That only happened because they changed their pit strategy due to the deliberate crash from Piquet Jr though.
@@kevinhanandihe didn't dnf
@@kevinhanandithere’s always going to be someone who is not going to like a ruling but in this case, the correct one would be to invalidate the race and give Massa their championship. Unfortunately, he was racing against the golden boy of the sport.
But honestly, do you think Nico Rosberg (who has 57 podiums in F1) losing his podium would actually make such a difference? I think even Niko doesn’t care if he has 56 or 57 podiums.
The winner? Innocent?
*Hill, Senna and Prost slowly emerging from the abyss after hearing championships can be overturned*
Hill and Prost maybe, but Senna, I don't think so
@@draganluzija3823 you dont say.
I wanted to say Hamilton as well to add to the joke but I don't want my notifs flooded, and I don't want a war here either.
@@draganluzija3823 hard for dead people to care.
@Youre_local_idiot_hear yeah better delete your comment lol. We know how toxic both Verstappen and Hamilton fans are.
I suggest looking into NASCAR’s 2013 “spin-gate” scandal. Basically, it was NASCAR’s own version of “crash-gate” and it also resulted in some wild and weird af officiating decisions.
And it led into what i call the dark ages of stock car racing. In the 2013 off season, Brian France and all the executives got together and created the "Chase grid" which was implemented in '14, which lead to 2017's "segmented races" after Monster Energy took naming rights to the Cup Series, and with 2024 looming over the horizon, the big rumbling is that a split is going to happen. Teams want to save money, NASCAR executives tell the teams to "cut down" when teams don't want to cut down anymore, the charter system that has been around since '16 has been a colossal failure and is the reason teams like Rick Ware Racing are able to stay in competition... It's not looking good over here and that's coming from me, a *diehard NASCAR fan*.
Ruined Clint Bowyer’s career for good
Let me say that the 2010 to 2013 seasons of nascar were crazy.
From the start of 2010 in Daytona, to the end of 2013 in Miami, it was a chaotic mess. Shall we agree upon that?
Some main points to take away from those 4 seasons include Jimmie Johnson winning his 5th consecutive championship in 2010, Tony Stewart barely beating out Carl Edwards for the title after winning 4 of the last 10 races in 2011, Juan Pablo's Jet-Dryer crash at Daytona in 2012 leading to nascar trending on Twitter thanks to that year's champion Brad Keselowski, and Michael Waltrip Racing committing "spin-gate" and making Brian Vickers pit as the race was restarting. This ultimately led to nothing as Johnson would win his 6th of 7 championships.
@@emdotrod And it sunk MWR. A record setting $300,000 fine, a lot of points, Truex Jr (who was an innocent bystander and had nothing to do with the controversy aside from being the beneficiary) got taken out of the Chase, Ryan Newman was put in, NAPA left to sponsor some new guy named Chase Elliott in the Nationwide Series starting in '14, and Michael Waltrip would close shop after 2015 season.
Truex Jr recovered nicely after an abysmal '14 season, though.
@@emdotrod that was until Tony Stewart came to be his Messiah with SHR
Fun fact: Alonso went on to win the next race in Japan completely on merit, so this was made redundant, contractually-wise
Japan wasn’t on merit as well. Massa and Lewis tangled and most of the front runners had their own problems gifting him a free win
@@AZBCDEE exactly. It was just twisted fate essentially 😂
Something in between those two I guess. Yes Massa and Hamilton tangled and Raikkönen dropped a bit behind after the start, but beating him and Kubica was definitely not a "free win" for Alonso.
@@AZBCDEE It was on merit when compared to literally fixing the sport for a race win.
Renault won Japan fair and square, crashes happen all the time. That’s what he means with ‘merit’.
@@AZBCDEE you know none of your opinions matter at this point right?
2 things were left out:
1. Renault did this, because Alonso's contract said, he can leave the team after 1 year, if he don't win any race.
2. This idea of pit-before-safety-car came after the German GP where the same happened. Piquet went to pit, safety car needed to come in and he was on podium. But as SC is random, Renault had the plan to use the second driver for it.
I understand Massa's point, and as a brazilian, that title still haunts me. But I honestly don't think anything will come out of it and Massa himself is not actually trying to be called world champ. It's about the message, accountability. It's about F1 owning their screw ups and actually doing something so it won't happen again.
If that’s the case I want Michael Masi brought up on charges
Hard to own the screwup when one of the people responsible for it are no longer involved in F1 and the other is dead, but current leadership can learn from this.
Honestly it's pretty cruel of Bernie to reopen these old wounds. Despite what he says there is no precedent and nothing in the 2008 rules that would allow for a whole race result for every team to be scrapped. At best Renault would be DQed from the race and/or the season. This is the same Bernie who said he'd take a bullet for Putin and was arrested at the airport last year for having a gun in his suitcase. If he said grass was green I'd still ask for a second opinion.
I feel bad for Massa. It's all well and good to figure out what happened after the fact, but nothing can correct how it played out at the time. It's really shitty knowing that this happened, and clearly affected the championship, but now nothing can be done about it.
A professional sport admitting it's screw ups and fixing them? What fantasy world does Massa live in? No professional sport will ever do such a thing ever. They claim it will hurt their creditability so they just act like nothing happened and never hand out proper punishment. Renault should have been banned outright no probation. Masi should never be allowed anywhere near a go kart track
11:24 One of the weirdest things after all of this, was Romain Grosjean binning the 2009 Renault into the exact same section of wall
Well, he's gotta crash somewhere.
@@davidtaylor1397
Or everywhere.
@@davidtaylor1397 Lol so was Grosjean the original Latifi?
@@ShawnFX no, Grosjean was actually quick despite his habit of wrecking
Michael Schmidt from Auto Motor und Sport recently revealed more to the timeline. Nelson Piquet jr. confessed it to him directly after the race on the condition that he won’t say anything. He realized what he had done and was really scared to call his father. Also 50% of the journalists suspected that this was planned but didn’t have any proof.
Nelson Piquet sr. informed Charlie Whiting about what his son did during the Brazilian Grand Prix weekend but him and Bernie Ecclestone decided to keep it secret in order to not put the sport in a bad light.
When Piquet junior was dropped in 2009 his father called Michael Schmidt to write a story about it to revenge Briatore. He however advised him to go to Max Mosley first because he was still in the dark and it would be very bad to learn it from the press.
After it came out Max Mosley thanked Michael Schmidt that he told Piquet senior to tell him first before the rest of the press.
The things that men in power would do to keep their public image clean...
@SivalinPutheryare we surprised?
@@joelandjake F1 having political controversy on within itself is honestly hilarious
Surprised you didn’t mention what Nelson Jr did afterwards.
“And so, being shunned by F1, Piquet left for a simpler, less-controversial series, one where skill and finesse are required, and intentional crashes just don’t happen.
NASSSCAHHHHH”
Didn't Piquet Jr also win Formula E?
@CodecrafterArtemis yes he did; in fact, Nelson Piquet Jr. ultimately became the first ever Formula E champion.
@@ALCTheBladethen got dropped half way through a season
@hcw_fig_fed curious, isn't it? He went from defeating the strongest team in the first season to barely being able to score a point five seasons later.
@@ALCTheBlade yeah it is quite surprising he was a good driver but wasn't consistent and either Jaguar dropped the ball with their car or it was something else
I know everyone says Massa would be champion if the race was cancelled or Renault didn't fix it, but...
Massa would also be champion if Ferrari could just figure out how to do a pitstop correctly.. 15 years on, they're still figuring it out.
Imagine Ferrari backing up Massa for cancelling Singapore 08 just so to say that they did nothing wrong
Had the pitstop happened correctly, none of this would have happened
Or his engine blowing up 3 laps from finish in Hungary while he was leading...I was just 11 but I was heartbroken
@@blsm-burminilaicalseparati6214but Kovalainen won so that's good he deserved better
Crashgate and it's outcome still hurts.
I was a huge Massa fan in 2008 and him losing the title in Brazil broke my 8-year old heart.
Same, Massa is my favourite driver but honestly, going for it, is quite hopeless. Everything is set in stone and I assume Lewis won't back down as he did also have a great season that year, Bernie just wanted some drama to happen
@@Corvus67 I agree.
It's not Lewis' fault that a lot of backstage fuckery happened.
@@finnthecoach16 Yeah it just made me hate Bernie more for giving Massa false hope and Lewis a grave thought that he might lose a title
Massa lost cause he wasn’t fast enough. If he had got more points in other races, he would have won.
I love rewatching old races and old seasons. But to this day I can't bring myself to rewatch 2008 again. I can't take it. Especially Singapore, Hungaroring and Interlagos.
Fun fact:
After announcing his suspensions of the race, Brundle walked around the paddock with 3 eyes
The all seeing Martin, lol. But for real Brundle's F1 iq is on the highest of levels
*suspicions?
@@Hugo28- one in the back of his head. Just in case...
I was living in Singapore at the time and was at this race. Everyone was just so buzzed to have F1 cars racing the streets for the first time. The "accident" also happened right in front of where I was sitting at the Marina Bay stand, so close I always remember the smell of the burnt rubber. We all just thought it was an odd place to crash, a low speed corner. Nobody thought anything until it all came out with Piquet's admittance. Crazy stuff. F1 golden rule....you never ever deliberately crash.
For people who didn't watch F1 in the refueling days: the reason Massa got a penalty for dragging the fuel hose down the pitlane is because whenever the fuel hose was attached, the car's fuel system was entirely open. A tiny mishap would have meant Massa's car, and basically the entire pitlane blowing up, which thankfully, did not happen. This was also among the final nail in the coffin for refueling, (also the 2009 Brazilian GP, where Kovalainen's McLaren also got released while the fuel hose was still attached, spraying Kimi's car with fuel and igniting it for a few seconds) people have been calling for it to be removed from F1 as it made races more dull, most overtakes happening in the pitlane, and there have been way too many accidents for it to be kept in the sport. The whole "refueling makes races more exciting" argument is void, because that's mostly just nostalgia.
Refueling can reduce car weight & dimension.
@@Revtiva And overtaking. And the skill element of qualifying. kHz33 speaks truth, the refueling era of F1 had, statistically, the lowest frequency of overtaking of any era, and not by a small margin. In, I believe it was the 2002 and 2004 Hungarian Grands Prix, there were literally _zero_ overtakes made the entire race. _Zero._
@@ELSTERLING Wasn't that the era when DRS didn't implemented yet?
@@Revtiva The last and only formal refueling era was 1994 - 2009. Before and after overtaking was significantly more common, with and without DRS. Also we currently get more non-DRS passes per race on average than we got per race at all in that refueling era. It cannot be overstated how bad it got, in the mid-90s it was a regular event for dry races to have a single digit number of total overtakes. _Including_ DRS passes we often get more overtakes in a single race than happened in the entirety of many or all season in the 90s/early 2000s. IIRC there was one season where Jos Verstappen had the most overtakes of anyone and he didn't even rack up 20, and this statistic is even worse than it seems on the face of it considering there were more cars on track (28 - 24 depending on the season and race).
But then why does it work in almost every other category?
Or, right.
They're basically level playing fields, those categories.
As a brazilian, this season's still painfull to remember. I think Massa should seek some kind of compensation if proven the FIA already knew about the "strategy" before the end of the season, but I think the results are set in stone. 15 years is just too long. If he tried to revert the results in 2009, when everybody was feeling sorry of him, that might be different, but right now? Move on.
Its impossible for F1 to be fair regarding team punishments as third parties who are not involved in the incident can benefit or be negatively affected by it. Great video Josh!
It's the FIA and Bernie knowing about it aspect that, if I were Massa, I would be most burned by. I'd also remind everyone of the dignity with which he conducted himself in Interlagos after that heartbreaking moment. Whilst I wouldn't want the 2008 title changed at this point, and, the outcome changes to Massa if Singapoor is deleted, but not if renault are excluded, and if Singapoor were deleted, the Lewis/McLaren camp can rightfully say they'd have had to approach things differently. The current situation is deeply unfair to Massa, but changing the title now would be unfair to Lewis. Ultimatly, I doubt the title will ever officially go Massa, but I do hope he gets something from this as an admission he was wronged, and those with the power to make it right did nothing to do so, for thier own ends.
Top secret fact: when alonso left mclaren after crashgate, he still had 2 years left on his contract. In order to release him, Ron/McLaren stipulated he could not race for the top 3 in last years (2007) points.
He did not go back to renault because they were the only one who WANTED him, in was because it was the only team he was ALLOWED to race for that actually had a shot at running up front. To prove this out, AS SOON as Ferrari could (2010) they bought out Kimis contract and benched him immediately for Alonso, they would have had him in there in 2008 if McLaren hadn't have blocked it.
Damn Alonso vs Hamilton in 2008 would have been amazing
Luckily Hamilton didn't place his douchey ass in a red car.
@@Xale-yt it would have made 2021 look boring lol
Briatore and Dennis swapping Alonso for Kovaleinen was convenient for a number of reasons.
Heikki's salary was way lower than Alonso's and by itself help pay a big chunk of the spygate fine.
There's a rumor in the paddock that after Alonso left Ferrari Mercedes CEO Dr Dieter Zetsche and Fiat boss Sergio Marchionne had a handshake deal that Alonso would not be allowed to race in a Ferrari or Mercedes powered car so that "he wouldn't be a problem for either of them"
This is said to be the backdoor reason McLaren couldn't get a Mercedes engine deal until after Alonso left the team, and why they ended up with Renault power.
It's only now that Zetsche is retired and Marchionne is dead that Alonso can drive for Aston with a Mercedes engine. That and Stroll doesn't give a shit what Mercedes says
@@darkalman yes he was banned from Mercedes engines, I guess for exposing the complacency in stealing and using Ferrari data? Lol.
Not entirely related but I still think it’s mad that Carlos essentially said deliberate crashes still happen and nothing came of it
if they gave piquet the seat for the following season, the public wouldve never known about this, it wouldve just been an ordinary crash.
Yeah weird that nobody ever talked about it. Alomost like drivers/teams and fia did not want anybody to talk about it.
Ofcourse it will continue to happen. It can get you pole position on Monaco, so its worth the risk.
@@Xzibitfreek
People did know about it, they just aren't weren't to.
They do not happen tho
Briatore is so weird that being in the passenger seat with james may was utterly terrifying for him
Break break break, Jezuz Christ
I don’t think you can change the championship in this regard as you have no idea how things might have played out. A different result here may have caused other changes in later races, and could open up a whole can of worms for other championships and change things for people who were blameless
That said, you *can* put a monetary figure on how much Massa may have lost in career earnings and can put blame on Bernie and the FIA so… hopefully he goes after them
Except there are rules about these things from what I've read
It's not about what would have happened had the crash not happened. It's about the fact that the race should have been rendered void.
Race should have been void based on the rules at the time, so it’s just enforcing the rules
@@squeakybunny2776can you actually cite the rule that says the race should be voided? I mean where it's actually written in the regulations and what it says not just basing it off of what Bernie has said. The 2008 regulations can be found and read online if you want to view them. There is nothing about voiding a racing because someone is cheating Bernie is lying cause stiring up crap and trolling is all he's got these days. This is someone who said was such good friends with Putin he'd take a bullet for him and he was arrested last year at the airport for having a gun in his suitcase. If you believe anything Bernie says then I've got some magic beans I'd like to sell you.
They knew before the end of the 2008 season but never did anything
*phone rings
“Ey Flavio the mad Ladio”
“Hey Ciao Nando the mad Lando, how is it going?”
“I’m trying to win the Singapore 2008 Grand Prix, but literally can’t right now. What do?”
“Dont’t worry, we got you”
*phone dials “Pronto, Piquet?”
“Yes?”
“S🅱️innala”
“What does s🅱️innala even mean?”
“Ask Seb”
“Oh okay. Hey Seb, what does s🅱️innala even mean?”
“It’s a meme from the future, you can’t get the reference yet”
*awkward silence
“Just crash okay?”
“Say no more”
-Mattzaba’s depiction of Singapore 2008
I feel much the same about the 2008 championship as I do about the 2021 championship. Do I feel there was many shenanigans that happened that went against the one that lost the championship? Absolutely.
But that door was left wide open by the failures of the team and or driver throughout the year to secure a singular position on track. There's no promise that their fueling rig system wouldn't have failed at the next pit stop regardless.
It is a shame though, Massa was a proper wheel man and does not get near the recognition from the era he drove in compared to everyone who got away with a championship
2021 was nothing like this. If Massa would've terminally crashed twice by Renaults you might have a point.
I loved the reference to the Tripoli grand Prix. What a scandal that was
Outrageous
Me too, but it was 1933 not 1937 where there were race fixing accusations (I had to look it up again to check I was correct), brilliant they they mentioned it though!
what happened?
@@James-xo4ph absolutely no idea to be honest
@@bg22757 this was so real
Honestly. I hope Massa actually goes for it. i'm going to have laughing material for years if he actually becomes World Champion 15 years later.
And Hamilton a 6 time champion lmao. They say Max's titles are controversial. Lewis first one still talked to this day haha
@@Hamisxa To me the real controversy in 2021 was the gifted win to Hamilton in Bahrain. Max's overtake was legal at the start of the race and ilegal at the end of it. They changed the rules mid-race.
Due to the long gap between races, I want this to happen for entertainment sake.
@@Hamisxa Hamilton did nothing wrong and you max fans still cry about 08 🤣 😂😂😂hypocrites have truly reason.
It was Renault for causing this whole mess anyways
And yes 2021 is still controversial. RB having to exceed the budget cap and Masi doing his stunts is what’s controversial
Max and controversy are never separate. Everything he does it’s got either ‘aggressive’ ‘tainted’ and other words like that. Simple wheel knowledge
@@TheProkonover you’re so plastic you don’t even remember what happened in the race 😂 🤣 😂😂😂 max fans are all the same. Talk with their mouths and not with their brain..
Hamilton undercut him and then max overtook him off track…
Why didn’t max overtake him afterwards then if he was faster? He had the laps after all; all he had to do was overtake fairly without going off track on fresher tyres. Nothing else
I don't think Massa will get anything out of it if he decides to go forward. I think that the most that can happen is Alonso being stripped of his win, which makes no change to the championship's outcome.
I do understand his anger, though. What I'm angry about is that Briatore and Symonds were eventually allowed back into the F1.
Yeah I think Felipe himself think it's a long shot but it's worth a try
Alonso can’t get stripped of his win cause he did nothing wrong, the guy just drove his car as fast as he could, he didn’t crash neither planned to do it, he just drove fast
@@ferst262 fair point
@@ferst262 there a few that belive Alonso KNEW what was going to happen...so take it for what it is...
@@TSEDLE333 believe, yet it was proven he knew nothing and had nothing to do with it. And if his haters, which are the only ones that say he knew used their tiny little brains for a second, they would realise he had nothing to gain from that except 1 victory, which he didn’t need at the time as he wasn’t fighting for the championship, and if he hadn’t won he would have left for Ferrari at 2009…
how do people not understand that this is incredibly different than Hill, Senna, Hamilton-Verstappen astounds me. Bernie came clean in an interview that the FIA knew about the accident in 2008 but they had reported they only knew about it in 2009 in order to protect the integrity of the sport. This effectively means the FIA denied Massa the right to protest (which lasts up until 2 weeks after the conclusion of the season), which is a clear violation of the rules
EDIT: I do hope Massa gets his title if it is indeed proven that the FIA knew about it in 2008, thus knowingly denying Massa’s right to protest. The whole race should have been abandoned. Just look at the Calciopoli. I have the utmost respect for Hamilton, but the race’s legitimacy was ruined and it should be nulled as to show competitors that there is zero tolerance for match-fixing
Yeah you're spot on. The only way Abu Dhabi 21 will come close to the Crashgate scandal is if RB had paid Masi before the race to screw Lewis but even Lewis fans would know that's highly unlikely. I feel bad for Massa as it screwed his title hopes but like many people say a title is won across a season and Massa fucked up in Silverstone 2008 due to his own error.
Come on, the FIA knew the Hamilton-Verstappen situation was a shitshow the instant it happened and simply closed ranks to protect themselves from criticism. The whole thing became about offering Merc weak concessions and dragging the process out until Max had his hands on the trophy at which point it was too late to do anything. They knew all along Masey had dropped a collossal bollock, but didn't want the title decided in some kind of legal battle between RB and Merc.
And let's be honest, the Hill-Schumacher incident was pretty obvious to anyone with functioning eyes. Noboidy needed an admission of guilt to see that for what it was.
@@craigcharlesworth1538 It was a shitshow BUT they were allowed to protest. Massa was never given the chance, and there is now a real possibility the FIA knowingly broke its own rules to the detriment of a competitor and legitimacy of the sport. This is in another stratosphere in terms of severity compared to Abu Dhabi
@@craigcharlesworth1538 no
@craigcharlesworth1538 Hill got screwed massively from that title and till this day is still one of the biggest robberies in sports.
Abu Dhabi 21 was simply breaking rules. Brazil 2012 ended under a safety car and while it was shitty it was legal. Alonso didn't get a chance to fight Button but the FIA followed the rules which meant Alonso never got that chance. Regardless of how you feel about Max and Lewis that title decider should've ended under a SC.
I just realized when you said piquet that our local paintball field is owned by the piquet family and has a little racing museum. They bought out the previous owner a few years ago and re vamped it. It’s in royal palm beach
Both Lewis and Massa made plenty of mistakes and could have easily the championship with races to spare ie Lewis in Canada and Japan. Massa in Monaco, Silverstone and Hockenheim.
Here's a small, personal story about that day:
I was watching that race at home, on the "teley", some of you like to say. At the time, I was working on a motorsport magazine (no longer exists) in my place. No problemo, all is well, Piquet Jr crashes, Alonso goes to pits, Massa gets out "doing an Albers" (watch 2007 French GP to see what I'm talking about.)
The cars were still behind the safety car when I get... not one, but TWO phone calls - one from my cellphone, other by my land phone. At certain time, I was holding both, one in my hand (there are witnesses who would sworn seen it) ad both were saying the same: that Piquet Jr had crashed on a deliberate manner. On the spot. Less than three minutes after it happen. I couldn't believe it, but they were telling me.
Race over, Alonso won and... I wasn't hearing nothing about those suspicions, not even from the reporters from the track. A few hours later, at the desk, I asked a guy who was there, a brazilian, and asked of any rumours of crashing on purpose. He said "no", I discussed my phone calls at home, and said "I'm gonna write something". I did, but on my blog and in a cryptic manner.
So, Bernie's claims are utter BS. He said that just for publicity, he wants people not to forget him.
Then, Alonso wins again in Japan, and the issue is forgotten because of the Hamilton/Massa fight for the title. All of this happen because of a whistleblower called Nelson Piquet Sr, when his son is fired, and tells to a Globo reporter, Reginaldo Leme. If somebody knew a thing, they were with tight lips, even among the paddock reporters.
NIce...that legendary hate Piquet Senior has for Globo doesnt count when his hate is on. Nice.
That was legit my first ever formula 1 race I watched… literally
Massa doesn't have a leg to stand on. The fact is that his Pit Crew cost him any chance at the Podium. It would be impossible to prove, one way, or the other, that Fuel Hose would, or wouldn't, have happened without the intentional crash.
Absent being able to prove that, he has nothing. Sad for Massa, truly, but, as they say, them's the breaks.
It’s content like this that puts me off making content as i cannot make stuff this good. From the editing to the script. Amazing work.
Possible hot take: if they change the 2008 title, surely that sets a precedent for changing world titles where the rules were broken. Thing about how many titles were won way back by drivers crashing into their title rivals. Also, would that precedent be expanded to 2021. To be clear, what Renault did was wrong but if you were to stick to the "change it" logic then way too many world titles would have to be given to someone else right?
Agree. While something like 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix or the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix can damage the viewed integrity of F1, but changing such a major result after nearly 15 years due to a lawsuit from a driver, would set such a dangerous precedent and lead to a PR nightmare that’s consequences would last forever
Yeah tonnes of titles were changed way back by drivers deliberately crashing into their rivals like Hamilton tried to do in 2021.
Briatore's manager ban was very costly for Kovalainen. He was threatened by Max Mosley with a certificate which had his signature to cut ties with Briatore to even maintain his super license. Kovalainen did so but Alonso and Webber didn't and nothing happened to them. Briatore took Kovalainen to court for a contractual breach and before it Mosley said the certificate was void.
I think it would be difficult to say this race doesn't count because the points given on that day affected everything that happened afterwards. Ferrari and McLaren (and everyone else) would have acted differently with different points
I gotta feeling they’ll be a “Part 2” down the road
EDIT: I wrote this comment mid-way through the video. Please watch the whole video before commenting below.
Original comment: Maybe people don't know this, but Massa filed a request for reevaluating the 2008 WDC result. Lots of comments sound like Massa is past this, he's not. This video is important and right on time.
I thought he was… oh well,
But the fact that that old idiot eccelstone claims that fia “knew” why the hell did they not evaluate Massa’s request is my question
@@matt_v_photo Your question will be answered in the upcoming court.
And make no mistake, Ecclestone is no idiot.
He can ask all he wants, its never, ever going to happen. Hes paying a price for the credibility of the sport. I was rooting for him that year.
Can't Ferrari do something? it's their driver and title after all..
@@chiyolate 15 years is too much later.
I imagine Massa deserved the Championship that year, but knowing full well that Lewis will not let go without a fight especially considering relinquishing the title will mean he has one less WC to rave about. I expect a very popcorn worthy next few months.
Well, in this case, the "robbed" claims would have some ground. In the end, this is all Briatore's fault, but Hamilton's performance was worthy of such a title. He had nothing to do with all of this except being the person to profit the most. There have been titles decided in a way shadier manner, where both parties (crash driver and profiteer) were the same person - Schumacher's 94 title for example.
I'm saying this as a Schumi fan. I love the guy, but that title and the way it was achieved is what it is. I'm not a particular fan of Hamilton, but I'd feel a little bad for him, having two titles taken away from him by some outside scheming. Think of him what you will, his skills on the racetrack are (almost) unmatched.
It isn't getting overturned. Lewis doesn't need to do anything. Even if there's an investigation that brings to light that Filipe was robbed by corruption. Culpability will be admitted and punishments dished out, that's literally all that would happen. So yeah, don't get your hopes up lol.
@@sebastianahrens2385 Scumi's 94 title was shady sure, but Spygate was on another level (or it would've at the same level if FIA knew Schumi was about to punt Hill at that race, yet they do nothing about it and let schumi do that antics then give schumi his first title)
Silverstone beggs to differ
I dont think that Lewis will take up the fight at all.
It would be an unprecedented thing in professional sports to make any taksies backsies of THAT size.
Its not gonna happen when the time for an official complaint (a few hours after the race ends) has already ended and especially not 15 years later.
Not only are bad referee calls part of the game as the pit stops and tyre changers, but the entire arguement to throwing out a race based on a single competitor (unrelated to the actual fight) breaking the rules is not only unreasonable, its also not how to increase any legitamacy.
Additionally it would open a can of worms that can NEVER be closed which would NECESSARILY include:
- Revoking at least one Senna world championship (deliverate crashing) - THE SCENES
- Revoking at least one Schumacher world championship (same Spiel) - THE SCENES EVERYWHERE BUT ENGLAND
- Revoking one Prost championship (AGAIN, same spiel) - THE SCENES EVERYWHERE BUT BRAZIL
- Revoking countless wins, poles, fastest laps and everything else throughout more than 75 years of the sport, having unforseen consequences for every single championship wins (constructors and drivers) and drivers positions in the standings.
I do not like Lewis as a person as much as the next guy.
But as a racer? Fantastic guy, rarely seen someone better, period.
I think Bernie knows what he was doing when he made that statement "Lewis got lucky", that's your go to person after everyone who benefitted from it mostly Alonso but all you think is, Lewis.
I’m not going to defend Bernie, but it’s not _that_ strange. Hamilton did massively increase his lead over that race, and was leading the WDC at that point while Alonso was like 6-7th or something.
With the WDC battle going on, Alonso’s win wasn’t important for the WDC. But it was for Lewis and Massa.
@@theglitch312 Alonso win was important to renault, simple as that.
@@drmaulana2600 i mean, that was intentional, not based on luck
@@drmaulana2600 Oops, I meant to say “wasn’t important for the WDC”. You’re right.
@@theglitch312 Lewis only benefited massively cause Massa was busy spinning going off track that day, remember when the crash happened Massa was ahead.
If nothing else, I want a boatload of money to come Massa's way.
i'm pretty sure Massa is not not broke and doesn't need the money.
@@charlesjay8818 He already said he doesn't care about the money. He wants the title
I'm pretty sure that Massa doesn't want money, he wants justice.
@@fesouzasan So many sporting events in the past has miscarriages of justice, we just have to live with it. I guess Lewis could say the same in 2021. But i feel for Massa, he's is such a nice guy and well liked and deserves a WDC title for his time in F1
@@patepulkkinenvtec2403 So many sporting events in the past has miscarriages of justice, we just have to live with it. I guess Lewis could say the same in 2021. But i feel for Massa, he's is such a nice guy and well liked and deserves a WDC title for his time in F1
You have to feel for Nelson Piquet, Jr. in this situation. Essentially blackmailed into doing something illegal to keep a drive he subsequently lost anyway. Even though this would have been very hard for him to do, I have often wondered what would have happened if he a) Didn't crash at all, or b) Just pulled off the track on the parade lap and not started the race
Or just ignored the team out right telling them to F off and continue on his race, relationship was already buggered might as well nuke the rest of it in orbit
FINALLY
THE CRASHGATE VIDEO
it's a good day when big daddy J posts
Content just keep getting better and better amazing work josh
People like to say Hamilton was gifted the championship by Glock…when in actuality Felipe ultimately lost desperately valuable points on three big occasions. Spa when he crashed out, Hungary when his engine spat the dummy near the end, and Singapore where Ferrari being Ferrari happened. A combination of sheer bad luck, utter jackassery from Ferrari and his own personal mistakes. Without that Massa would’ve and should’ve rightly been champion in ‘08. That being said it’s not Lewis’ fault. It’s just the way the cards fell.
And let's not forget him making a mockery of himself in Silverstone while Lewis cruised to a dominant victory...
@@extremegrieferbible Urgh, I’d somehow managed to erase that from memory. Felipe should’ve just stayed at home that day. 😭
What's so crazy is how had Alonso's car didn't die in Q2 the previous day, they wouldn't have gone ahead with the plan 😂😭.
Renault reliability in a nutshell
I've got nothing but respect for Massa wanting a full airing of the truth. And I'm not a Hamilton fan, but the results should not be changed. Briatore and Symonds should have been permanently banned, but other than that there's no one you could take any action against.
Somewhat disappointing that there was no discussion of the points results for that year, or what the standings would have looked like if this race were nullified. Easy enough to look up I suppose, but definitely an important aspect that should have been covered.
The way your character gets forged after pulling something like this… you know you are the goat, regardless of the outcome.
i feel like in a perfect timeline (even as a disgusting max redbull fan) we would have Felipe win the championship in 2008, and the entire 2021 abu dhabi scandal removed and hamilton would still get his 7 championships.
would he? if abu dhabi was removed the championship would still be Max because i'm pretty sure in a tie the title goes to the driver with more wins in the season.
@@teofalleiroyep, and the 2021 Belgian Grand Prix was counted as a win for Max so he had 9 compared to Lewis' 8.
While I feel for Massa, the mistake still occurred at Ferrari's hand. This wasn't a simple pit stop that lost him a few seconds and allowed someone else to win. This was a MAJOR error on the pit team. If the error hadn't of happened, there is a good chance things would have been different and Massa would have gotten enough points that day to win the championship, assuming everything else plays out the same. Due to this I don't think it should be overturned.
See, my argument against why the result shouldn't be changed is because even though Massa had to stop because of the SC his team still made the mistake with the fuel hose. Yes they were essentially forced to stop because of the SC, the mistake that Ferrari made could have also happened at a normal pit stop, a very similar thing happened at the European race the next year if I remember correctly.
The people are arguing about invalidating the race, not changing the result, as if it didn't happened
i second that
@artbryanmoldon But that fucks up everything for other teams. Williams gained a huge bunch of points in the race so taking that away means they would move down in the standings that year.
@@stevenjoseph6048 yep, hence the arguments, it's a mess
"You have the protection of Sir Lancelot's race seat"
PRICELESS!!!
Massa definitely deserves that title. Still, I don't think taking Lewis's trophy would be a good idea. What about just having two champions in 2008? Brazil loves those two guys, and I don't think is fair for either of them to have something to lose for the stupidity at Renault and the FIA.
I still find it very VERY hard to believe that Alonso didn't know about it, especially after Spygate.
Also, Hamilton should not have been punished in Spa so honours even I guess.
It’s Alonso. Who believes what that whining coward has to say anyways? He always tries to deceive people which works on the fanboys that cream him in their sleep but not to everyone.
It’s clear he knew it but they just covered it up to make sure no further penalty was put up
and now with Bernie saying even he knew about it, it's kind of hard to believe a driver from the same team wouldn't
one of them was just a decision. other was race fixing. massa deserves it. an alonso fan is saying this btw.
maybe he really didn't
It is impossible he didn't know. On which planet would he otherwise accept the horrible strategy they had put him on?
In F1 there is a posthumous world champion, the great Jochen Rindt.
Now there is also a screwed world champion, the unfortunate Felipe Massa.
I say we put Felipe and Lewis in KTM X-Bows and in a 20 lap race in the red bull ring, they decide the 2008 title. 🚬🧐
2008 was one of the most exciting year for me, F1 came to singapore, its was my first tiem watching F1 live at home and it kick started that F1 fanboy in me
I don’t feel indifferent with Alonso. There’s no way he didn’t know about it before hand. Also how did Bernie find out and who else knew? I bet the entire paddock knew well before Piquet Jr came out. F1 is very tight-knit.
Alonso knowing doesn't mean he's guilty, he might've know about it just after the race..
@@Simon-kc4ml F1 teams feverishly go over everything together as a team so that everyone is on the same page and know what to expect, and can react to specific situations while operating.
Obviously I can’t know for sure whether or not Alonso knew what was going on beforehand, but I do think the likely hood of Piquet knowing and Alonso not knowing is very, very slim. And I think that’s a reasonable assumption given my first paragraph. And guilty or not, it seems wild to me that he was able to keep the win. They race as a team, and he should have been punished accordingly. No driver should ever benefit from a team’s cheating, if they were in on it or not. You race and fail as a team.
In fact, the only way for Alonso to know before the race, it is if the idea come from Alonso himself.
Alonso was already a two-time world champion, at the time, and had nothing to gain from that victory, it would be too risky to tell the plan beforehand and Briatore needed his collaboration to make it work (basically, driving as fast as he could and taking any chance that came his way, something which he does anyway).
“Quaking like a pug on Angel Dust”… that’s too funny bro! Excellent job. Great upload.
So gutted for Massa, still makes me angry thinking about it.
Massa was always my favourite
This video is written reeeaaallly well! It's like Veritasium video level of writing...
Felipe really doesn't wanna let this go. Besides, Lewis didn't have anything to do with all of this so he doesn't deserve to lose his Championship
This!! Let's not even speak about spa 2008 which may have screwed Lewis out of a win, depending on who you ask. But the people who want Massa to get the championship clearly don't remember 2021. Not going to say much else otherwise I'll have a bunch of keyboard warriors attacking me for something called an opinion which doesn't even indite anyone.
@@harry69007 Also Silverstone 2008 where Massa pretty much made an absurd amount of unforced errors that got him out of the points
@@harry69007 I remember Hamilton making an error that even mazepin didn't make at Baku 😬. I remember Hamilton being slow at Monaco while journeyman bottas was on course for at least a podium. I remember Hamilton damaging his car at the second Austrian race. In conclusion, if you want to make the claim that Massa didn't deserve to win the 2008 championship, then Hamilton didn't deserve to win the 2021 championship. P/s, massa didn't deserve the 2008 championship.
@@darrenjohn8524 he has won 7 championships you will cry a river but he remains the mos successful f1 driver of all time,
@@drugoviic Worthless plastic championships have no value 😂. Since you like stats so much, here is some for u : So called 7 time wdc poles and wins in 2022 =0, former backmarker who came from Williams =1🤣🤣.
This was my first year watching formula 1, and watching Massa have his heart ripped out broke me. I hated Timo Glock, but my anger went to Alonso and had been there ever since. Piquet jr was a pawn. Of that didn't happen, Massa would have won the championship. This still keeps me up at night
This is foolish by Massa. Who says the pit stop wouldn’t have gone wrong without the crash and safety car? That Ferrari light system played up all season. Hamilton still managed to end up on the podium as well and he was running second prior to the crash… Massa was also gifted the Belgium GP win. Imagine how Lewis felt after having that taken away in such a ridiculous manner? I think Massa needs to find some purpose in his life after F1 and Bernie needs to piss off - he’s obviously bored and playing games.
And the times he spun
Fernando knew all along what the plan was. I mean, the dude grabs every opportunity he has to make positions, no matter in what way
This will never get overturned because there's no way to prove that Massa would have won that race.
I mean I doubt the lawsuit will do anything. But I’m pretty sure Massa’s lawsuit is to invalidate the race, not declare any results. All he needs is to take a point off of Lewis and he’s 2008 champ
massa never deserved to win that race anyway for his pitstop
He doesnt need to lol they just need to discard singapore results and he wins on points
your sarcasm is on another level
Josh's content is getting alot better in my opinion like I always thought it was good but last couple of videos have been hitting the spot
Crazy how Nelson Jr, Alonso and Renault went unpunished, only Briatore got punished.
Justice for Massa
Not going to happen.
All because Nelson could not imagine another way to crash with more creativity, credibility and also without practicing the crash a lap earlier.
Ecclestone seems to have some personal beef with Hamilton and appears to be using this bombshell to 'prove' he isn't a driver on the same level as Schumacher despite them having 7 titles apiece because his first title should have gone to Massa.
Which is all well and good, but if you play those kind of games Lewis should get the 2021 title and Schumacher should give his '94 title to Hill so in actual fact Hamilton remains on 7 titles but Michael drops to 6.
Bernie has been trying to discredit Lewis for half a decade. The old man is senile at this point.
Hamilton would remain on 6 tho.
The problem is that if the FIA knew about crash gate before the end of the championship they should have voided the race. That would give massa the title.
If you do the same for abu dhabi 21 (which by the way is quite different from crash gate) max would still win the wdc
@@squeakybunny2776 that would be way more shameful for f1 to strip a title from an icon of f1 15y later due to Briatore incompetence...
@@alexlacl8730 and if Ecclestone knew and let Briatore do his antics, then it was more than just "incompetence".
and if they indeed got a prove that FIA knew about this fiasco beforehand yet still let Briatore and Symonds do their thing, then covered it until Piquet Jr told FIA the next year. then this race should've been nullified (which indirectly striped Hamilton's title), yes it sucks but if they let this stuffs slde then there is no guarantee that other team could do even more vile thing in the future.
@@squeakybunny2776 max gets disqualified for a bare check in Saudi and Lewis is champion
11:05 made my heart jump, it sounded like my wake up alarm 😭😭
I really wish massa had won the championship that year
I may adopt the characterization of understatement as being "a violently British way of saying...." things.
The only question that matters is: what will Ferrari do about it?
we are checking
I ask the question because this is probably Ferrari’s closest chance to getting a driver’s title in the next 10 years,LOL!😂🎉
I doubt it will do anything...Ferrari was the main culprit of Massas losing that champioship. the crashgate fucked him over in the end, but Ferrari multiple messes trough out the year did colaborate a lot with it too.
Really enjoyed how you looped back to the opening question. Very well structured story here 👍🏽
If they actually take away Hamilton’s championship and give it to Massa, what is the point? Who wants a championship 15 years after they should have had it. I know this is a lot of ifs but if it happens, I think Hamilton will retire right now. (I don’t think Hamilton will be stripped of the championship)
I mean did he fully deserve it after this exact race? It’s mixed tbh (yes cuz it’s his first and it was a hard fought for and no cuz ofc of that race) but is it worth stripping it? No, Massa already moved on from that backstab and so did everyone.
I just don't see the point of stripping the title, why just not make it a shared one?
@@KaspaTEHEE 🤔🤔🤔
@@KaspaTEHEE They likely never strip titles unless the driver himself cheated or broke the rules. Lewis didn’t do anything wrong, Massa will probably have to live with that.
And I think it’s impossible to have a shared WDC according to the rules. They’ll go by points, finishing positions, qualifying positions(?), etc. etc. Until one winner is declared.
Equal points is already incredibly rare. Equal finishing positions? That’s basically 1 in a million already.
Shared WDCs will never happen.
The point is that he would've made a lot more money over the past 10 years if he was F1 world champion he wants compensation not titles.
I remember this like it was yesterday. It hurts so bad even after all these years... But still, it's nothing compared to Brazil of the same year... Massa was always my favourite driver... :(
Super well made video❤️ love your content, keep up the awesome work mate
BMPH did a great video on this, I recommend watching it to anyone who hasn't seen!
Only a few days ago the German motor sport outlet "auto motor sport" (YT channel ams.F1) made a long video about this where the legendary main reporter Michael Schmidt said that after the race ended several people had already known that the crash was on purpose but they only told him off the record and he couldn't report about it.
In addition, Piquet was set to get a seat at Torro Rosso, but somehow he was convinced to actually try and stay at Renault and Briatore made him do that fake crash to guarantee a seat. That was foolish of course and his F1 career ended after doing such a stunt.
I'm genuinely surprised on how far F1 has gone along way throughout the year from their racers, tracks, rules, and racecourses.
People have almost forgotten that Lewis was also cheated out of the Spa win that year. He complied with the rules by giving Kimi the position back after cutting the chicane. However, the rules were changed AFTER the race (that you needed to give at least 1 corner after giving the position before attacking again).
It's also interesting to note that while this incident is now part of the sport's history, Perez deliberately crashing during last year's Monaco qualifying session (watch jolyon palmer brazil 2022 analisis) only to win the GP later on , there was no race ban or disqualification from the championship . Consistency.
That’s such a stupid argument because Perez didn’t have pole position when he crashed, he only won because of Ferrari’s incompetence. His crash had next to no effect on the constructors championship or drivers championship other than guaranteeing him being ahead of Max as long as Red Bull didn’t purposely screw him. Ferrari lost Monaco on their own terms. They could’ve won, they had pole.
Should we also consider Bottas and Russel deliberately crashing at Imola 2021 to give Lewis the most convenient red flag in history?
7:24 "known to you and ME" is correct grammar. A great many people get that wrong because they've been taught to always say "John and I", but in fact that is incorrect. Simple and correct rule: If you remove the other person from the sentence, it should still be grammatically correct: "known to you and I", would become "known to I", which is wrong.
Imagine if the race got invalidated and Felipe got the title:
+Lewis down to 6
+Schumi the only one with 7
+One more for Ferrari
To good to happen.
Given the highly suspect end to the 2020 season I can’t see how F1 has changed and learnt lessons.
Bit of a fun fact: Piquet Sr., after everything has gone down he went to the Brazilian F1 broadcaster at the time, talked with the main, and most respected, F1 journalist in the entirety of the 200 million population banana land, and told him everything, of which he did make the facts public during the broadcast of the 2009 Belgium GP for the first time ever around the world.
F1 in Brazil is transmitted on open broadcast nation wide by the way.
Kinda hard to ignore when you have a shit bomb that hit the fan really hard and spread in every direction possible that you can imagine and not imagine at the same time.
Massa really should be given that title ngl
As much as things were crappy for massa, if he hadn’t spun by himself in Malaysia, he would have comfortably won the title. Same with Lewis in 20, as much as he was robbed of a title in front of the world, he made a rookie mistake that cost him a win in a race his adversary suffered a tire puncture. It’s sucks, but such is life.
Massa also had a Bottas Turkey 2020 race in Silverstone that season as well. While Hamilton dominated that race, Massa couldn't keep his car on the track.
Isn't this true about every single driver in the championship? drivers only depend on themselves to win the title
Piquet, Briatore, Symonds and Alonso should have been banned from FIA racing for the rest of time. How you can obviously destroy so much sportsmanship, just to have one win is disgusting.
Also, how anyone can say Alonso didn't know about what would happen that night is just crazy af.
Alonso for what??? He had done nothing but drive his car as fast as he could…
He didn’t know, why would he? He wouldn’t risk his career in F1 for 1 race win after getting 2 championships and being 1 point away from a 3rd… his career had just started and was back then the driver with the most titles on the grid, he wouldn’t have permitted it
This decided an F1 career and a championship
No, Ferrari's pitstop decided the championship, along with an absolute trainwreck of a British GP. Without the botched stop he still would've got points and none of this would be being talked about today.
@@tall_toby8576 if the deliberate crash never happens, then the pitstop never happens
@@tall_toby8576 Massa was unable to protest the results because the scandal was only revealed in 2009. By hiding it, the FIA would have denied his right to protest agaisnt the race which, if proven right, could nullify Hamilton's third place in that race
@@aliataciciek and the FIA would argue that a pitstop would still have to be made at some stage. Them screwing up the stop had no external influence, it was Ferrari being Ferrari.
@@lRedKill3r what exactly would happen now though? DQ Alonso? Hamilton finishes 2nd and the championship result stands. They're not going to nullify the race result, regardless of what caused the crash it was still a full race and nullifying it punishes every other team/driver that scored points. The crash could've screwed anyone over, just as any legitimate crash could. Ferrari just ensured it was them. Massa threw his championship away at Silverstone, like Hamilton did at Baku, I don't get why that's hard to accept.
I 100% love and appreciate every Lance Stroll stab you make in each of your videos.
I can understand how aggrieved Massa is, but to say it affected the championship that year is rubbish.
Ferrari's pit stop team cost him those valuable points, not crash gate. Everyone in F1 knows you have to play the field given to you in the race, granted that huge shift was caused by Renault BUT his race win wasn't taken away from him as a direct result of that conspiracy. It was taken away by a huge accident and Ferrari's nerves to get him back out in the field, thus risking everyones safety in the way of that.
We should not deny history that has happened, especially history that has happened well over ten years ago now. Hamilton won the championship that year, and even with the recent report of them knowing in 2008, as Josh said "Its set in stone". There were races after that were Massa could have made the difference, but he didn't. One race in a season does not decide a championship like that one.
Hamilton fans in a bad spot though 1 race doesn’t matter v Abu Dhabi 21
@@safcjcp that’s different, it was literally the last race of the season and the last chance for both. And for the record, while that still lives in bitter memory, they didn’t change the result of it and admitted Masi was wrong so what makes people think they’ll do something about a race which took place over 10 years ago.
I was wondering when Ferrari started to be what they are now, compared to what the were in the early 2000s. I thought it was a gradual transition, but incidents like this one paint another picture. Rather, it seems shit immediately hit the italian fan after Schumacher, Brawn and Todt left. Nigel from Kent had gone by then, too.
what affected the championship more was how Massa was unable to protest the results because the scandal was only revealed in 2009. By hiding it, the FIA would have denied his right to protest agaisnt the race which, if proven right, could nullify Hamilton's third place
@William J. France and this was an actually rigged race that they covered up so those aggrieved couldn't do anything about it
Man! I like everytime you post. Keep up the good work
If only Kubica pitted in the same lap as Rosberg...
F1 TH-camrs keeping us sane during the 3 week break!