The admirals biggest mistake was confirming his violation of federation ordinance. With that knowledge Worf, Picard, and Rikers disobedience became wholeheartedly lawful and the admirals assumption of command null and void.
@@Th0ughtf0rce I mean yeah, wouldn't that have been completely fine? To just develop the phasing technology and ignore the cloaking part of it? Then it wouldn't have been a violation of the treaty. And they could use the phasing technology for so much. Like who needs a cloaking device when you can hide inside planets and moons and asteroids? Who needs shields when you can turn your phaser on and all weapons will just pass right through you leaving you unharmed? It'd make the federation instantly invincible and wouldn't have violated any treaty. It was absolutely broken, completely OP, it would have made it impossible to destroy federation ships. Yet they just completely ignored it.
@duffman18 The frustrating thing about this era is that the "peace" faction held far more sway and thought themselves clever while being strategically dumb. The likes of Nechayev, Kenelly, and others were willing to sacrifice the Maquis and Bajorans to appease the Cardassians, for example. Blackwell and Pressman in this episode represented the more hawkish side of the admiralty. Had they had their way, the DMZ skirmishes and Dominion war would have costed a lot less Federation citizens.
The cloaking effect seems to be part of the phasing. There was a different episode where a few people were phased and they were invisible to the rest of the crew. Of course, there's the question of how a phased thing can sense non-phased things, but whatever.
If light and energy passed through a phased ship with no effect then they could use the device to avoid being shot by energy weapons, or could fly right through a planet or sun to avoid other ships, but then if light and energy could pass through the ship without effect the crew members would not be able to see or detect the outside environment and would be flying blind every time they switched it on, and would never know if it was safe to switch it off.
@@stevenpayne984 That's correct, though they could use their knowledge of where objects were before they phased (projected forward in time for ballistic objects like planets) along with their knowledge of their course and speed to make a good guess. Of course, you can't predict everything, and the longer you go without looking, the more accuracy your predictions lose. De-phasing inside an object would have disastrous consequences. You would have some atoms suddenly occupying the same space, and their nuclei might merge to create some huge new and very unstable element, leading to a spontaneous fission. Enough overlap could lead to a runaway chain reaction - a nuclear explosion.
@@jdotoz Well, if sensors still work, then that means it can still send and/or receive energy. If you can project a holographic image of the ship over the the entire hull, you're phased, but technically not cloaked since the hologram makes your ship visible. Similar to the stealth bomber. It's damn near invisible to radar, but when it wants to be seen for takeoffs and landings, it raises some piece of equipment which is visible to radar.
@@sleazybtd I think the point is that the sensors should not work, at least not with any matter they are out of phase with. Any physical process that makes you truly invisible must also make you blind to what you're hiding from.
The federation voluntarily limiting its own ability to make war is an incredible act of good faith, it’s almost unimaginable that people would go along with it
It's believable if they believe they'll lose the war. If they believe the Romulans have the ability and intention to war until one side is destroyed. It's not dissimilar to the fallacy of building ever-larger arsenals with the strategy of avoiding war through the threat of mutually assured destruction.
@@jakeb3157 - Yeah, no empire or nation would make that kind of deal to disarm or not be able to enhance their own nation. It would give their rivals more power over them and would cause their own demise.
@@S31Syntax Unlimited Romulan Ale, trips to the hot springs at the firefalls of Gal'Gathong, and all the Tal'Shiar agents you can ask for. Sounds like a deal to me.
The producers of DS9 were considering bringing back Pressman for the Dominion War. Would've been interesting to see the storylines that came out of the high and mighty Federation using disgraced personnel. Who were stripped of rank, and serving time for violating Starfleet rules back on duty.
@@Ragitsu Pressman seemed to have the Federation's best interests at heart. And as the episode showed, he had quite a bit of support within' Starfleet's higher ranks. Besides, recently rewatching the episode. Maybe the Pegasus' crew hadn't mutinied, and screwed up the tests. Maybe the accident wouldn't have happened in the first place.
I love it when Pressman tries to have Picard removed from the bridge everyone just looks at at Pressman and Worf folds his arms and just stares at him too then Riker smiles and says to him'' I don't think anyone is going come to your defense this time ''
If your going to use quotation marks which is used when quoting someone's exact words, try to actually get those exact words right. That said, I've seen far worse examples of someone misquoting someone's else's words, so don't feel bad about it :-)
I wish we could have seen the "oh crap" look on his face when the Enterprise decloaks in front of him and Picard informs him that his government will be contacted about the incident.
Definitely among my favorite Romulans was Sirol. Right up there with the late great Andreas Katsulas's appearances as Tomalak. In a bit of trivia, The Sirol actor, Michael Mack, had a small role as the backup tactical officer in _Star Trek Generations._
4:21 when the admiral orders Worf... ----then cut to data.... and it's perfect. His android brain is experiencing something completely new at the moment, and he is genuinely curious about it. I really love TNG... it is just so well made, and well thought out. The complexity of this scene is so amazing, it's a great example.
I love how coy the Romulan captain is playing it this episode. There's an earlier call where both he and Picard know very well the other is up to something, and know that the other knows. They both can see the subtext to what the other is saying and there's a mutual level of respect between them, like they're playing a game.
@voldlifilm I think the script here pulls it off by having Picard make its one use also act as his choice to reveal its existence and thwart Pressman's illegal ambitions.
"I made you, I can break you!" Don't you hate it when someone says that to you? It's like your parents telling you "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it."
Has any character in the movies or TV who said "I made you and I can break you" EVER succeeded in what he was trying to do by saying that? Like intimidated the hero, gotten away with the cover-up, etc?
Not to mention a child can easily kill their parent given the right opportunity and motive, it's a stupid ludicrous statement. Like, what are you going to do? Shrink me back down into a fetus and replant me back in the womb to be disassembled? No logic in the statement whatsoever
"But why?" Asks one Vulcan Engineer "Because that would fucking rule!" Shouted the human engineers after pounding back a couple of 24th century redbulls.
Yeah, why do you think all the other races in the Federation basically allow humans to sort-of run the whole thing? They let us do all the crazy sh*t cause we apparently have a knack for that kind of insanity.
The Pegasus was, and is, one of the strongest episodes from a very variable final season. Credit for that largely goes to the two central actors- Terry O'Quinn as Admiral Pressman and Jonathan Frakes once again showing a commanding (excuse the pun) performance. The explanation for why the Federation doesn't use cloacking devices on their ships is finally explained (and makes sense), whilst the cat-and-mouse game between the Enterprise crew and the Romulans around the asteroid is tense and edited well. A pity that Pressman didn't return in DS9 during the Dominion War or defect to the Maquis.
@@MM22966 i’ve read he didn’t return to DS9 for 3 reasons- he was starring in Millenium and The X Files movie at the same time, he was too expensive and the writers didn’t want to hire him.
@Cliven Longsight Well yes and no. Worf was supposed to be one of the strongest BIOLOGICAL beings with very high fighting prowess. Not exactly a match for androids like Data or Lore, but coming close. Him getting his ass kicked throughout the show (usually by a new foe) should indicate: Oh damn, this foe is a real badass if he can beat Worf. It was more of raising the stakes, than showing Worf weak. In DS9, Worf is forced to fight Jem'Hadar, which were the fiercest fighters in the Gamma Quadrant (bio-engineered only for this one purpose), and beats 7 of them in a row. So he's not that weak after all.
Data: my organic boyfriend whom is gay for me is in danger. What should i do? Processing.....Processing..... Processing. Worf: graaaaa i will NOT disobey my Captain
Admiral Presman: “I’m taking command of this ship. Escort the captain to his quarters” great thinking... the whole bridge crew just heard what transpired, are you going to have them escorted away as well? Then who would be left to run the bridge???
THE NIGHT CREW! :D Seriously thought, there are actually 2 other bridge crews on starships. They each have an 8 hour shift. We only follow the adventures of the Picard crew.
Sometimes you reprimand a commanding officer and the rest fall in line. Ryker did. Sometimes it's as simple as that. There'll be whispers and backchannel discussion, but sometimes that can be mitigated. The truth has often been subverted by the chain of command, washed away in time and complacency. It happens, though I'm sure he'd even admit it was a hail mary. Trying to buy enough time to get the evidence sequestered so that rumor and speculation were all that was left of it.
My apologies to the Federation High Council, but Adm. Pressman is right. Cloaking technology is a first-strike weapon, and agreeing by treaty not to develop a means to either match or counter that weapon was at best idiotic, and at worst suicidal. My recommendation would be to renegotiate that treaty at the earliest opportunity...and, this time, _refrain_ from smoking the Pipe of Peace until *_after_* the new treaty is signed.
It doesn't matter because the Federation has the Klingons for allies, and they DO cloak. Open hostilities would cause the two to fall upon the one, and that is why Romulans have never engaged in a full-scale war of late, culminating unto the events of Star Trek Picard where even then, they STILL do not want an open conflict they won't win without heavy casualties.
Exactly. The Federation signed the treaty out of fear because they know they cannot bear the Romulans with their technological and military power it would be a total defeat. However they also are too focused on their ideals to see that they need to increase their military to provide a true deterrent to incursion. The Romulans signed the peace treaty to keep the Federation in a dark age. They only do not invade because they know they cannot defeat the Kilngons, who are too honor-bound to break their own treaties, and look for reasons to go into battle.
I understand Picard wanting to stick to that treaty. And Riker for not wanting this to continue. But.. Pressman was absolutely right, I agree. Who have cloaked ships? Romulans, and Klingons. The Klingons are strong warriors but warfare is in their blood. The Romulans are as untrustworthy as they come. So you have an iffy ally who you were at war with not long ago who LOVES battle AND has cloaked vessels... and a very untrustworthy, deceptive opponent who ALSO have cloaked vessels. Starfleet would be idiots to not develop the same technology.
"What I want is an officer that care more about the safety of the ship and accomplishing the mission, than how it looks on his record." Jean-Luc Picard
Data was an absolute mastermind to force pressman's hand by stating that cutting out would be dangerous. In all reality they probably could have cut the entrance and forced it out using the tractor beam, since collapsing the entrance only closes it but doesn't make the rubble a structural support.
Something here to consider, since not only was the Enterprise able to cloak but also pass through the asteroid which was a game changer. In Deep Space Nine, where the Romulans gave permission to the Federation to use cloaking technology for the Defiant in certain territories. The Federation should've used their own cloaking technology here since they were permitted. That would've made some interesting episodes seeing here in this episode of TNG, where the ship could also pass through matter. The writers kind of dropped the ball in Deep Space Nine concerning this episode of TNG IMO.
I think if the federation revealed that they had this kind of tech in their back pocket every spy in the quadrant would go after it because it’s such a game changer. With that kind of interest it’d only be a matter of time before someone gets their hands on it & whoever does would essentially have the ability to just wipe out any ship, station, base, anything they want completely unchallenged, they could absolutely dominate the quadrant with that kind of advantage. So the best thing to do is to keep it under wraps. Even in a war. It’ll win you the war easily but people aren’t going to forget that a ship *phased through matter*. Info will always leak, the only way to stop that is to not make the info to begin with. I think Romulans know this too. There’s that one episode where Geordi & Rho where phasing through the ship when they got caught up in a romulan experiment of very similar tech. & it was working fine too! Romulans could phase, engage in combat, even fire weapons while phased **yet they’ve never seemed to use it since**. Neither the federation nor the romulans want to use phase-tech because it would open a huge can of worms on all sides. They still want to have knowledge of how to do it though. Just in case.
The problem was how unstable it was. A whole ship got stuck inside the asteroid because of it. It was simply not ready for deployment and certainly not something you want to be battle-tested by live fire.
@@matasa7463 Another thing to counter the argument is that the Federation/Starfleet wanted to have the Romulans on board against the Dominion. So the choice of using a Romulan cloaking device with a Romulan officer on board (who was conveniently left out after the first appearance of the Defiant) was a diplomatic one as well. They could have asked the Klingons as well, which would have provided a cloak without hesitation, but since the Klingons are already allies, there was no reason to butter them up.
I'd love to know how Pressman was planning to get out of the asteroid without using his illegal cloak. Or did he really think he could just shout at the crew enough to get them to not talk, ever?
He was probably hoping to hold out long enough for starfleet security to send another ship where he could in theory secure the cloak from outside eyes.
Best case scenario, Pressman bullies Picard and the whole Starfleet crew into holding their tongues...and then the winners and honorable mentions of the Captain Picard Day art contest all flap their gums about it the moment they hit Starbase. We gonna court martial the kids now?
@@zorkmid1083 not the question: after the romulans seal the asteroid then pressman says he's taking command. question is how will he get out of the asteroid with the enterprise under his command without using the phase cloak
Isn't it technically not a cloak? It changes the state of matter into a different phased state, light just happens to pass through as well. But I agree with the admiral, Star Trek could have some interesting stories with ships that can cloak.
Technically a cloak too though. Phasing the Enterprise and all contained within means photons will no longer interact with the ship. If there's no light hitting the ship, you cannot see it.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 DS9 itself doesn't cloak, the USS Defiant does. Even then they had to have a Romulan on board to supervise the use of the cloaking device, and only in the Gamma Quadrant. After the start of the Dominion War and the Romulans actually not siding with the Federation, the ship is somewhat forgotten by the Romulans, allowing Sisko to use its cloak as much as he wants despite the agreed terms. It didn't matter in the end as in Operation Return the cloak is fried and rendered non operational, then the Defiant itself blows up at Chin'toka. The new Defiant has no such cloak, so we never see it again.
@@SantomPh when I said DS9 I meant the show, not the station. The romulans forgetting about the super weapon they loaned to one of their greatest threats is really funny. Almost as goofy as when the Klingons donated several cloaking devices to the marquis. The Klingons really are the worst treat faction in that show. Even Gul Dukat after Waltz didn’t get it as bad as the Klingons.
Terry O'Quin played the reoccuring role of "Capt Boone" on JAG & also appeared in different roles mostly ex-military in NCIS..They should've made this ep longer w/a pt.2
Strangely enough, I think the admiral's right. But he also went about this the wrong way. The incompetent way that got people killed and cost the Federation a starship. How was he not court-martialed for that? If the Federation had any sense of Realpolitik, they would publicly denounce the admiral and claim they destroyed the phasing cloak. While keeping the prototype under lock and key for study, and future deployment. Then again, this is Trek lore so none of it matters. The Klingons developed a Bird of Prey that could fire while cloaked, whatever happened to their research? Derp.
I think the fact that he didn't give much of any thought to the lives being lost is what showed he was ultimately wrong. Or, at the very least, that he wasn't doing all of this simply for the sake of the federation or to fend off their enemies.
or a warhead ... just think about a small bomb under the romulan senate paitently waiting until its time to go BOOM Or a smal drone that disstripueds a neurotoxin to an troubelsome politicen. Do wath i say or die ... or just die ^^ Or a torpedo witch goes throw mass until it hits his target. For goundcombat a nice tank. Dive to the enemy. Get your troops easly behind enemy lines and back for raids. ... Or build a base that can only be accest with this technology. Or ... ohh, i have too many ...
@@julonkrutor4649 If they were to use it offensively but then the cat would be out of the bag.Which could potentially spark an arms race much like the atomic bomb did after WW2.Keep in mind Section 31 is secretive and as stated the tech violates a peace treaty with the romulans."IF" they created any space craft or vehicles with said tech it would only be a handful.Used if and when necessary during covert ops.Developed in planetary bases and space stations which wont be found on any star map because they wont officially exist.That is not to say they would not find more offensive uses for it like you mentioned or more perhaps in ways we may not have thought of.But only a handful of trusted people would know those were even created.they might not even use them at least not away.The really powerful stuff that could say take out a star ship in one hit even if it is fully shielded.They would keep those hidden away.locked up and kept as a last resort.Like say their was a major Borg incursion into either federation space or another attack against Earth.Only this time with a large fleet with new next gen offensive/defensive tech the federation has yet to encounter and initially wont have any response to defeat it as the Borg may have adapted to their countermeasures just enough where the old tricks will no longer be effective.Their last ace in the hole if you will.
@@stevengreen9536 you couldt get away with this for at least 10 years - if you do not overuse them and do not give them to Starfleet (they are not good at gepping secrets). After that, well, section 31 had a decat to come up with something new. I wouldt prepare most of those things - plans for the mass production of the new torpedos for exampel. I also wouldt planed surprises on most eneamy planets to take out key infrastructure ... like nukes only bigger - or at least have something close by - like a smale drone with warp in interstellar space. And i like the blackmail thing, woouldt work wonders on romulus ^^
Think about ds9 Sloan disappeared all the time and with remote access he could decloak a hatch of the ship and recloak it and fly right through the station
@@julonkrutor4649 Phase bombs already exist. See the episode in DS9 where the Dominion uses them against the Federation, the episode where Nogg loses his leg.
Pressman is right, even if he is an arrogant ass, as all Admirals were in Star Trek. To agree to a treaty that gives your mortal enemy a clear and distinctive advantage, on every ship, that lets them strike at the very heart of your territory before you know they are even there is tantamount to suicide. In fact, the plot is the only reason the Romulans didn't already wipe out the Federation and take it over. Even the treaty with the Cardassians wasn't that stupid.
Stellar powers have the means to use what are essentially warp capable ICBMs, so eh, there’s definitely some sort of balance of power going on. And cloaking devices, like say, nuclear powered submarines in reality, are quiet but not undetectable. The Federation clearly tachyon detection grids which can detect cloaked vessels. It does seem a bit off putting to not match an adversaries capabilities, but it is hard to say the plot protected the Federation when it has the means to thwart cloaking devices in the first place. There are submarine detection grids in real life too.
Honestly, though, he's kind of right. Starfleet absolutely neutered itself in every way possible, aside from fully disbanding its fleet of luxury cruise ships. The Dominion war showed that pretty clearly.
@Ragitsu But what good is 60 years of peace just loose millions (or was it billions?) Of people in the Dominion War plus the ever lingering possibility of the fall of the Federation? The Federation was always too quick to make concessions in the name of peace.
And the Federation was able to adapt its fleet into a fighting force to match any other power in the Alpha Quadrant in less than 4 years. The Federation’s advantage is in adaptability, generalized ship performance, and modular upgrade potential, as well as experienced expertise from dozens of worlds on an extremely wide array technologies, including ones superior to normal loadouts, but not commonly distributed. Unless you had accurate information on the disparate R&D projects of hundreds of worlds, you would never be able to accurately gauge the Federation’s potential strength. Extended decades of peace gave the Federation time to pursue this research while other powers mostly built up fleets of lesser craft
As much as I hate the Admiral, he's got a point. If the Fed's got a cloke, the elf's wouldn't stand a chance against the combination of intelligence and might that the Fed beings to the table
@@ractaros9611 "further militarisation of Starfleet" He's got my vote. Not cuz I Wana see humans kick but. We've been doing that since we first learn to sharpen a stick and arguably a lot further before then. I just Wana see some more epic space battles much like in STO (amazing game BTW a bit of a mess in turm of story ark (beginning middle and end) and is easy to get confused but still an amazing game)
I would agree its stupid... but then i remember how they treated the Romulans my fave race in STP just to further an Android story arc and now i really don't give a shit about the Federation tbh.
Dude have you forgotten the number of nefarious deeds and illegal covert actions the Romulans have done over the years. Hell factions of their own people caused the destruction of Picard's rescue fleet on Mars which in turn gave certain federation and starfleet officials the excuse they needed to pull out of the rescue. Hence the Romulans themselves share in half of blame for their own downfall
in the Novel, the Federation sit by and watch as one of the most important race within the Federation facing Extinct, that is the Andorian, one of the four founding species of the Federation and the Andorian asked the Federation for help, but they do nothing and let the Andorian facing inevitable extinction, the Andorian Imperial Council became angry with the federation and thus withdrawing their membership from the Federation, but only with the help of Julian Bashir, that their Species saved. they're facing extinction due to their mating problem and their confusing Four Genders
I have never actually had a problem with the Treaty of Algeron. From the Romulan perspective, it might also be one of the worse deals ever. In turn, they agreed to a trade embargo with the Federation, coupled with a frequent impasse with the Klingons. That means most of the time, the Star Empire can't trade with their TWO biggest neighbors, and their most trustworthy. I mean sure you can trade with the Breen, Ferengi, and Tholans. Two of those have regular xenophobic cullings; and the third are Ferengi.
The United Federation of Planets is a massive alliance spanning hundreds of star systems and races. The Romulan Star Empire holds one star system (their own) and the two habitable planets within it (Romulus and Remus). Their cloaking technology is their only real advantage. Of course they want to keep other races from figuring out how to neutralize it. As far as that goes, the answer is foolishly simple. You neutralize the invisible man's advantage by blinding him. (Turn off all the lights in the room.) Somebody cloaks, you start pumping out white noise on all sensory frequencies. You can't see them, and they can't see to navigate or target their weaponry. Oops....!
@@TheDetailsMatter According to canon (the map from "Balance of Terror") and some not-quite-canon embellishments (Star Trek Star Charts), the Romulan Star Empire is pretty big (something latter-day Trek doesn't quite acknowledge but whatever) and is only surrounded by Klingons and the Feds on three sides... Furthermore (mostly head-canon but it's implied) they conquered those systems (we're talking third-to-half the size of the Feds) and took everything they could, so they had a fairly decent economy and contact with a bit of the galaxy the Feds aren't sure about (the Romulans weren't going to let Starfleet past their space) including trade with other people and, possibly, earlier and more direct contact with the Borg (at least a year before Q showed Picard and crew the Borg but maybe quite a bit longer) and in so doing, they probably can fight the Borg better than the Feds or Klingons (at least initially).
@@TheDetailsMatter It did not go as planned though. The Romulans used fusion based impulse power to power their early warp drives - see Balance of Terror. While still allowing them to travel at warp, it was inefficient, used a lot of fuel and was much slower. They came up with the idea of trading their cloaking technology with the Klingons who made a poor copy of it - gamma issues - for matter/anti-matter reactor technology. They got some old D-7's in the process - see the TOS episode where Kirk disguised as a Romulan steals a device. But, the deal failed, Romulan space had far to little dilithium to use in M/AM reactors and had to develop Micro Singularity power sources, which were still not as powerful as M/AM power generators and thus Warbirds were 30% slower then a Galaxy Class - see Tinman. In the end the Treaty of Algeron did nothing for them except cripple them long into the future.
Cloaking isn't even all that useful in an actual fight. No shields, no weapons and if the enemy even suspects someone is using a cloak nearby you better believe they'd have their own shields and weapons charged and ready so you can't even use a cloak to get an alpha strike off. Hell, since space isn't actually empty you could just scan the area and look for patterns of particle displacement or even the impacts of said particles against the hulls of a moving spaceship.
Plus he basically was doing that, just not the way Klingons do it. It's more of how a human crosses their arms, but the implication is the same; to Worf, Pressman is a coward and a traitor without honor.
@@zorkmid1083 Who knows? We've never seen the full text of the treaty. Presumably some territorial concessions, maybe a ban on certain Romulan weapons technologies or something.
The Federation got to preen it's ego at preserving the moral high ground. They don't get to trade with the Romulans...but they didn't before. They don't get to dress up their ship captain's as Romulans to infiltrate and steal cloaking devices any more (sigh...those were fun times), and they don't get to play in the "submarine warfare" arena along with all the other kids on the playground. But at least they can keep their hands from getting dirty. What a win for our side.
Picard meets himself from another dimension Other Picard. “ Yes, Wolf 359 was unfortunate. One or two ships destroyed•” Picard “ We lost over half the fleet!” Other Picard “ Well, our Federation was never stupid enough to give up the right to cloaking technology…”
Well, they agreed to not develop it, not to use it, whereever it comes from. Indeed, since they had an alliace with Klingons, they could just use the ones developed and produced by the Klingons.
For Admiral Pressman it seemed that the alliance with the Klingon Empire was not enough to keep the Romulans in check. He wanted to insure that there was some sort of contingency plan, if the Federation's bond with the Klingons would sour over the course of time.
This cloak would have been so helpful in the dominion war. Starfleet commend was stupid to sign that treaty. All they got out of it was peace and an established neutal zone with the Romulan violated repeatedly. Pichard should have exited and left cloaked.
To be fair, the treaty sent the romulans in to isolation for over 53 years. Isolation from the federation at least, though they had skirmishes with the Klingons
If Picard exited and left cloaked, it would've been a dead giveaway what the Federation had when the Romulans got sick of waiting, went in after them, and not only found them gone with no apparent means of escape, but that other ship stuck in the rock. Proactively letting the Romulans see what happened signaled they were still operating in good faith.
@@Regfife they could have use torpedoes to blow up the asteroid while shifting opposite the romulan ship and claim they just managed to cut their way out before it collapsed. they could have tried cutting and then shifted if things got bad, with a similar outcome. They could have detonated torpedoes, shifted out and left. then just appear later on with no explanation, or a cryptic one. the romulans already know or they wouldn't be there searching in the first place. as long as they can't confirm it you are fine (which is the same trick they've used on the federation and picard numerous times, turnabout is fair play). There was no reason to give the romulans more ammunition for their propoganda
@@sglkh3r6f9h Interesting ideas, but if the asteroid collapsed as they were trying to bust out, and they had to phase out to avoid getting pulverized, then how would they phase back in without materializing in the rock or in front of the Romulans? I guess they could still have gotten clear and then phased in, letting the Roms think they'd been crushed, but when they learned later that the Enterprise is still jetting around, they'd wonder what happened, giving them a potential lead to follow.
How does Riker know? Twelve years ago, did they tell every crew member about this experiment that violated the treaty, just expecting them to keep quiet about it? Logically, they would have tested it on a ship with a crew as small as possible, all hand picked.
3:30 - We're in space, Data. HOW could the chasm, "collapse" in zero G? Is there enough mass for it to collapse in on itself? Any internal explosion would blow chunk out and away in all directions.
It is a very large asteroid, I wouldn't call it zero G. It wouldn't so much "collapse" in on itself, it'd be more like a slow motion avalanche, thousands and thousands of tons of rock and debris pouring in towards the center of the asteroid.
The cloak must stick around for awhile under lock and key and in All Good Things the Enterprise has a cloak that looks a lot like the one used in this episode. I was really hoping in Picard that Starfleet had cloaks as by that time the Romulan Star Empire was a mere remnant of its old self thanks to the destruction of Romulus.
Pressman: "None of you are authorised to know about that device. Commander Data you're with me I need you to get that device working. Lt Worf execute the rest of the crew and then report to Commander Data for an honourable death." Data: "A strict reading of the regulations states that what you are asking would constitute an illegal order." Worf: "Klingons do not follow illegal orders! ... Also if anyone asks in the future I wasn't here and therefore will have no memories about about being on a Federation ship with a cloaking device. Tell them I was knocked out by slipping on a banana peel or something and missed the whole thing"
The arguments on this page actually do a wonderful job of showing Master thinking vs. Slave thinking. IE "The law says I can't do that." vs. "The law says I'm allowed to do that." In any case, a law (including a treaty) has to define what a given thing is in order to render it illegal. The language of the treaty would have to be reviewed to determine how a cloaking device is defined within the treaty, and whether or not the phase cloak actually falls under that definition. If it falls in that definition it is banned, if it doesn't, it is not. Since the show never tells us how its actually defined, we don't actually know whether or not it would fall under the limits of the treaty. Picard & Riker obviously think so, but it would be up to a judge to determine, or more likely given that its a treaty, the ambassadors of the respective states. Just hope whoever is looking at it doesn't view things the way the ATF in the US does. "Cloaking devices are illegal." "This isn't a cloaking device." "We think it is, therefore it is. Also, we have to confiscate your deflector while we're at it." "The deflector is not a cloaking device." "The deflector can be modified to trap visible light and render you invisible. Therefore your main deflector is a cloaking device and we'll have to confiscate it." "But...that's not what the deflector is used for." "Doesn't matter. You have the ability to do it, so that is constructive possession of a cloaking device." "Damn it." "Also. We're taking all the shower curtains." "How could you possibly justify that?" "A shower curtain keeps you from being seen. Therefore it is a cloaking device." "Its a shower curtain. Its not a cloaking device. That doesn't even make sense." "It keeps you from being seen, therefore it *is* a cloaking device. Now, about your shield system..." "Please make it stop." Yeah, there's a reason fiction doesn't deal with this kind of stuff. When its not mind-numbingly boring, its so over-the-top stupid the audience would have trouble believing it.
In my opinion, this is one of the best episodes of the series. Whose orders does Riker follow? Does he follow Admiral Pressman out of a misplaced sense of loyalty? Or does he follow Captain Picard and unveil Pressman's wilful violation of the Treaty of Algeron, regardless of the consequences to himself? If it was you in this situation, what would you do?
No orders are valid if they are unlawful theres no conflict Riker should have reported it to jag 12 years earlier and deffinitely should have as soon as pressman came on board
Rat Pressman out immediately. The worst that will happen is that I get discharged from Starfleet. Big deal - civilian life in the Federation is a utopian paradise. I don't need a job to make a living, which is the biggest reason why workplace abuse goes unreported in our modern world. Starfleet needs me, more than I need Starfleet. And I'm sure I can find something worthwhile to do with my time outside of the organisation.
While the treaty was a bit of a pain, I'm sure there would be certain situations where a cloak could be used in an emergency without causing an issue. Cloaking to escape from a Borg invasion perhaps?
I can understand where Pressman was coming from but also I understand where Picard was coming from too I think Picard was afraid of Federation going down a slippery slope.
He should have ordered Data to escort Capt. Picard. He would have had better luck. Slightly better chance than ordering the most Honorable Klingon who respects his Captain. 🤣
Couldn't they have developed a phase-sheild that simply didn't cloak. It wouldn't make them invisible, it also wouldn't violate the treaty. But if you shot at them, your bullets aka your torpedos or phasers would pass right through without interacting with you. It would still be a very powerful weapon and we know it works very well.
"... your torpedos or phasers would pass right through without interacting with you." You might want to look up the definition of invisibility (aka cloaking). It's the /interaction/ of light with matter that makes it visible in the first place. No interaction with anything = perfect invisibility.
This would have been even better if Crusher was on the bridge at the time and rubbed salt in the admirals wound by declaring him loop in her medical opinion and confining him to quaters instead
And then a couple of years after this, the DS9 crew got the Defiant with a cloaking device loaned to them from the Romulans, and it was only ever supposed to be operated by a Romulan officer on board the Defiant with no federation officers of crewmen going near it. Except that they almost immediately dropped that and the DS9 crew just continued to use the cloaking device on their own without the help of a Romulan there, forever after. They just ignored the treaty and didn't give a shit and neither did the Romulans, weirdly. So if Admiral Pressman had just waited a couple of years then he would have got what he wanted and wouldn't have torched his whole career lol. What an idiot lol
There is a 0% chance that cloaking device was destroyed. It’s sitting snug on a shelf at Section 31.
Probably not, Section 31 mostly likely already have the design, but that particular device was more than likely handed over to the Romulans
Handed over? Lol 😆
This should of been the cloak used in Picard rather than the old klingon one
After the recent Picard season I am convinced you are right!
I legitimately thought the "Genesis II" was the phased cloak on my first watch.
The admirals biggest mistake was confirming his violation of federation ordinance. With that knowledge Worf, Picard, and Rikers disobedience became wholeheartedly lawful and the admirals assumption of command null and void.
Imagine if he said "well, achtuallee we were pursuing a phasing, not cloaking, technology". At least Worf would have been onboard with him, I bet!
I mean, yeah, the plot happened because there was a plot in the script of the show.
@@Th0ughtf0rce I mean yeah, wouldn't that have been completely fine? To just develop the phasing technology and ignore the cloaking part of it? Then it wouldn't have been a violation of the treaty. And they could use the phasing technology for so much. Like who needs a cloaking device when you can hide inside planets and moons and asteroids? Who needs shields when you can turn your phaser on and all weapons will just pass right through you leaving you unharmed?
It'd make the federation instantly invincible and wouldn't have violated any treaty. It was absolutely broken, completely OP, it would have made it impossible to destroy federation ships. Yet they just completely ignored it.
@duffman18 The frustrating thing about this era is that the "peace" faction held far more sway and thought themselves clever while being strategically dumb. The likes of Nechayev, Kenelly, and others were willing to sacrifice the Maquis and Bajorans to appease the Cardassians, for example. Blackwell and Pressman in this episode represented the more hawkish side of the admiralty. Had they had their way, the DMZ skirmishes and Dominion war would have costed a lot less Federation citizens.
Funny thing is, if the device just phased matter without also cloaking, it would be perfectly legal and still give a huge tactical advantage.
The cloaking effect seems to be part of the phasing. There was a different episode where a few people were phased and they were invisible to the rest of the crew. Of course, there's the question of how a phased thing can sense non-phased things, but whatever.
If light and energy passed through a phased ship with no effect then they could use the device to avoid being shot by energy weapons, or could fly right through a planet or sun to avoid other ships, but then if light and energy could pass through the ship without effect the crew members would not be able to see or detect the outside environment and would be flying blind every time they switched it on, and would never know if it was safe to switch it off.
@@stevenpayne984 That's correct, though they could use their knowledge of where objects were before they phased (projected forward in time for ballistic objects like planets) along with their knowledge of their course and speed to make a good guess. Of course, you can't predict everything, and the longer you go without looking, the more accuracy your predictions lose.
De-phasing inside an object would have disastrous consequences. You would have some atoms suddenly occupying the same space, and their nuclei might merge to create some huge new and very unstable element, leading to a spontaneous fission. Enough overlap could lead to a runaway chain reaction - a nuclear explosion.
@@jdotoz Well, if sensors still work, then that means it can still send and/or receive energy. If you can project a holographic image of the ship over the the entire hull, you're phased, but technically not cloaked since the hologram makes your ship visible.
Similar to the stealth bomber. It's damn near invisible to radar, but when it wants to be seen for takeoffs and landings, it raises some piece of equipment which is visible to radar.
@@sleazybtd I think the point is that the sensors should not work, at least not with any matter they are out of phase with. Any physical process that makes you truly invisible must also make you blind to what you're hiding from.
"Two people and one piece of equipment to beam up."
Beams up them and the panel behind them.
I always thought it would be hilarious if they accidentally locked on to one of the corpses
A chair...? a fkn chair!?
You beamed back a fkn chair!!!
Presumably that's why Pressman held his hand on the 'piece of equipment' to identify it for the transporter chief.
@@tylisirn exactly lmao
Yes, because “Pressman, Riker, and the piece of equipment at our feet” rolls off the tongue so easily and makes for great television.
The federation voluntarily limiting its own ability to make war is an incredible act of good faith, it’s almost unimaginable that people would go along with it
It's believable if they believe they'll lose the war. If they believe the Romulans have the ability and intention to war until one side is destroyed.
It's not dissimilar to the fallacy of building ever-larger arsenals with the strategy of avoiding war through the threat of mutually assured destruction.
@@jakeb3157 No - it is not.
It is what Ukraine did. Of course - they didn't think the Democrats would be in charge at the time. Biden - esp.
Doesn't that mean that all federation members that currently have cloaking devices to be removed from their ships?
@@jakeb3157 - Yeah, no empire or nation would make that kind of deal to disarm or not be able to enhance their own nation. It would give their rivals more power over them and would cause their own demise.
I love Worf's response: just a silent 'I dare you to come over here and make me do it.'
More like "Bitch please".
How bout no
With a subtle gesture he indicated that he would be unwilling to comply.
"I believe I speak for the entire crew when I say, to hell with our orders"
So? Wharf always assed kicked
"Im taking command of this vessel!"
I just LOVE Riker's reaction there. The simple, raised eyebrow. Such a simple action and it screams "oh really?"
Vulcan s do not bluff
@@thodan467 “No…No I don’t suppose they do.”
I love Worf's reaction after the admiral says "Lt. Worf, escort the captain to his quarters." 😎✌
ADMIRAL "Worf, arrest Captain Picard!"
WORF "Make me." "
God, I LOVE how slimy and spin doctor-y Romulan captains were before the fall of the Star Empire.
This dude was the best. Romulan snark to the max.
I don't understand how the crew could turn down a vacation on Romulus with an undetermined end point, it was such a generous offer.
@@S31Syntax Unlimited Romulan Ale, trips to the hot springs at the firefalls of Gal'Gathong, and all the Tal'Shiar agents you can ask for. Sounds like a deal to me.
That's exactly how a Romulan should be. Polite and charming to your face, with a knife to put in your back if necessary.
The Star Empire fell? Now that's a canon I don't acknowledge.
This kind of technology would've really been helpful during the dominion war
The producers on DS9 did have some plans for Pressman to return
The producers of DS9 were considering bringing back Pressman for the Dominion War. Would've been interesting to see the storylines that came out of the high and mighty Federation using disgraced personnel. Who were stripped of rank, and serving time for violating Starfleet rules back on duty.
A lot less useful if they had to go war with the Romulians and lose a massive chunk of their navy and possibly their systems.
@@ikecarr5989 You don't want someone that you can't control.
@@Ragitsu Pressman seemed to have the Federation's best interests at heart. And as the episode showed, he had quite a bit of support within' Starfleet's higher ranks. Besides, recently rewatching the episode. Maybe the Pegasus' crew hadn't mutinied, and screwed up the tests. Maybe the accident wouldn't have happened in the first place.
I love it when Pressman tries to have Picard removed from the bridge everyone just looks at at Pressman and Worf folds his arms and just stares at him too then Riker smiles and says to him'' I don't think anyone is going come to your defense this time ''
If your going to use quotation marks which is used when quoting someone's exact words, try to actually get those exact words right. That said, I've seen far worse examples of someone misquoting someone's else's words, so don't feel bad about it :-)
@@slinkerdeer Updated
Asking Worf to escort Picard to his quarters is a long shot at best.
Especially whn you have just been reviled to be in violation of Federation law and so should be the one being escorted to a secured location...
If it was anyone but Worf, no way
This is the most troll Romulan in all of TNG.
Search "Singularly impressed"
*Romulans are Vulcans*
I wish we could have seen the "oh crap" look on his face when the Enterprise decloaks in front of him and Picard informs him that his government will be contacted about the incident.
Definitely among my favorite Romulans was Sirol. Right up there with the late great Andreas Katsulas's appearances as Tomalak. In a bit of trivia, The Sirol actor, Michael Mack, had a small role as the backup tactical officer in _Star Trek Generations._
He's chill
"its not a cloaking device, its a phasing device. Nothing in the treaty about that."
But it cloaks you too, so its still illegal. If it phased you but didn't cloak you, well then that's fine
@@lander77477 Then it would be a ...........phaser?
"The cloaking effect is merely a side effect of the phase shift. No violation of the treaty has occurred"
@@CedarHunt I think we'll have to go to the judges on that
@@lander77477 Eh, after Romulas was destroyed, they aren't a threat anymore. Let's break the treaty.
4:21 when the admiral orders Worf... ----then cut to data.... and it's perfect. His android brain is experiencing something completely new at the moment, and he is genuinely curious about it. I really love TNG... it is just so well made, and well thought out. The complexity of this scene is so amazing, it's a great example.
He is probably thinking: "Strange, my orders are to follow his commands, and yet instead I wish to tell him to go fornicate with himself."
What’s also funny is rikers expression when the admiral walks away. The way he looks at Picard is almost like “ can you believe this guy?”
I love how coy the Romulan captain is playing it this episode. There's an earlier call where both he and Picard know very well the other is up to something, and know that the other knows. They both can see the subtext to what the other is saying and there's a mutual level of respect between them, like they're playing a game.
"This technology is wrong! Now how do we use it to get out of trouble just this once?"
@voldlifilm I think the script here pulls it off by having Picard make its one use also act as his choice to reveal its existence and thwart Pressman's illegal ambitions.
When you realize the pips on your collar are just decorative!
When Riker announced what the device was, that was a mind-blowing moment.
It simply shows that when one's ass is in a sling, one will consider any and all options.
"I made you, I can break you!" Don't you hate it when someone says that to you? It's like your parents telling you "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it."
Has any character in the movies or TV who said "I made you and I can break you" EVER succeeded in what he was trying to do by saying that? Like intimidated the hero, gotten away with the cover-up, etc?
Not to mention a child can easily kill their parent given the right opportunity and motive, it's a stupid ludicrous statement. Like, what are you going to do? Shrink me back down into a fetus and replant me back in the womb to be disassembled? No logic in the statement whatsoever
Then there is the follow up of "and I can make another one that looks just like you"
Sounds like something Frank N Furter would say.
mine said that while beating me as a kid. Shame the stairs were slippery that one day.
The United Federation of hold my beer I got this.... yeah lets copy someone elses cloak but make it have noclip as well.
"But why?" Asks one Vulcan Engineer
"Because that would fucking rule!" Shouted the human engineers after pounding back a couple of 24th century redbulls.
Yeah, why do you think all the other races in the Federation basically allow humans to sort-of run the whole thing? They let us do all the crazy sh*t cause we apparently have a knack for that kind of insanity.
@@williamcostigan91 Why would they drink that shit? I would have them chugging some Romulan Ale.
"Noclip" - LOVE IT!
@@smokinggnu6584 human beings are probably the only ones stupid enough to do something like that.
"Any attempt to cut through the rock may cause the entire cavern to collapse"
In space?
The Pegasus was, and is, one of the strongest episodes from a very variable final season. Credit for that largely goes to the two central actors- Terry O'Quinn as Admiral Pressman and Jonathan Frakes once again showing a commanding (excuse the pun) performance. The explanation for why the Federation doesn't use cloacking devices on their ships is finally explained (and makes sense), whilst the cat-and-mouse game between the Enterprise crew and the Romulans around the asteroid is tense and edited well. A pity that Pressman didn't return in DS9 during the Dominion War or defect to the Maquis.
Pressman was a bad bad person - he wouldn't agree to voluntary self disarmament.
@@jamallabarge2665sarcasm?
There were some ideas floated to have Preessman's command and rank reinstated during the events of the Dominion War.
Yeah. Maybe the actor wasn't available. Pressman had some distinct Section 31 vibes, especially with that "I know people" crack at the end.
@@MM22966 i’ve read he didn’t return to DS9 for 3 reasons- he was starring in Millenium and The X Files movie at the same time, he was too expensive and the writers didn’t want to hire him.
4:23 Data is processing whether he is going to have to embarrass Worf's fighting capabilities or not.
@Cliven Longsight correct
@Cliven Longsight Well yes and no. Worf was supposed to be one of the strongest BIOLOGICAL beings with very high fighting prowess. Not exactly a match for androids like Data or Lore, but coming close. Him getting his ass kicked throughout the show (usually by a new foe) should indicate: Oh damn, this foe is a real badass if he can beat Worf. It was more of raising the stakes, than showing Worf weak.
In DS9, Worf is forced to fight Jem'Hadar, which were the fiercest fighters in the Gamma Quadrant (bio-engineered only for this one purpose), and beats 7 of them in a row. So he's not that weak after all.
Data: my organic boyfriend whom is gay for me is in danger. What should i do? Processing.....Processing..... Processing.
Worf: graaaaa i will NOT disobey my Captain
Liked how Johnathan Archer was able to help Riker make the right decision.
Also how Riker's 30 lb overweight gut seemed to disappear for this confrontation.
@@MaestroDrake it was a stressful time for Will 😂
@@MaestroDrake 30lbs? lol You just jelly, 'cause Riker is handsome and you ain't
@@The_Gallowglass You probably ain't either.
@@MaestroDrake Not what my mom says.
Admiral Presman: “I’m taking command of this ship. Escort the captain to his quarters” great thinking... the whole bridge crew just heard what transpired, are you going to have them escorted away as well? Then who would be left to run the bridge???
THE NIGHT CREW! :D Seriously thought, there are actually 2 other bridge crews on starships. They each have an 8 hour shift. We only follow the adventures of the Picard crew.
RMJ1984 Beer me!
@@RMJ1984 There are 2 other if working day is 8h, but I can't remember if it is 8h working day. It could be 6h or 4h working day. It's the future!
Sometimes you reprimand a commanding officer and the rest fall in line.
Ryker did. Sometimes it's as simple as that. There'll be whispers and backchannel discussion, but sometimes that can be mitigated. The truth has often been subverted by the chain of command, washed away in time and complacency. It happens, though I'm sure he'd even admit it was a hail mary. Trying to buy enough time to get the evidence sequestered so that rumor and speculation were all that was left of it.
Well, it was high-risk, that's for sure. Thanks goodness it didn't come to that. It would have been a much different series.
Meanwhile Sisko is looking at these idiots going, "wait...you want me to fight the dominion without cloak....are you insane"
What idiots?
Don't tell Admiral Pressman what he can't do.
My apologies to the Federation High Council, but Adm. Pressman is right. Cloaking technology is a first-strike weapon, and agreeing by treaty not to develop a means to either match or counter that weapon was at best idiotic, and at worst suicidal. My recommendation would be to renegotiate that treaty at the earliest opportunity...and, this time, _refrain_ from smoking the Pipe of Peace until *_after_* the new treaty is signed.
That's not for anyone in uniform to decide.
It doesn't matter because the Federation has the Klingons for allies, and they DO cloak. Open hostilities would cause the two to fall upon the one, and that is why Romulans have never engaged in a full-scale war of late, culminating unto the events of Star Trek Picard where even then, they STILL do not want an open conflict they won't win without heavy casualties.
Trust me, Section 31 has a cloak. 😄 It's also implied that the federation has this technology in the future.
Exactly. The Federation signed the treaty out of fear because they know they cannot bear the Romulans with their technological and military power it would be a total defeat. However they also are too focused on their ideals to see that they need to increase their military to provide a true deterrent to incursion. The Romulans signed the peace treaty to keep the Federation in a dark age. They only do not invade because they know they cannot defeat the Kilngons, who are too honor-bound to break their own treaties, and look for reasons to go into battle.
I understand Picard wanting to stick to that treaty. And Riker for not wanting this to continue. But.. Pressman was absolutely right, I agree. Who have cloaked ships? Romulans, and Klingons. The Klingons are strong warriors but warfare is in their blood. The Romulans are as untrustworthy as they come. So you have an iffy ally who you were at war with not long ago who LOVES battle AND has cloaked vessels... and a very untrustworthy, deceptive opponent who ALSO have cloaked vessels.
Starfleet would be idiots to not develop the same technology.
I love Worf’s response, essentially “Not happening!”
"What I want is an officer that care more about the safety of the ship and accomplishing the mission, than how it looks on his record."
Jean-Luc Picard
The guy playing the Romulan is great! He'd make a great politician - if such a thing exists.
He played the back up tactics officer announcing lursas betore bird of pray same year 1994
Data was an absolute mastermind to force pressman's hand by stating that cutting out would be dangerous. In all reality they probably could have cut the entrance and forced it out using the tractor beam, since collapsing the entrance only closes it but doesn't make the rubble a structural support.
I love data’s confused look when he looked at worf 😂
It's like there was a silent understanding that they were supposed to force pressman's hand and not provide alternatives.
Something here to consider, since not only was the Enterprise able to cloak but also pass through the asteroid which was a game changer. In Deep Space Nine, where the Romulans gave permission to the Federation to use cloaking technology for the Defiant in certain territories. The Federation should've used their own cloaking technology here since they were permitted. That would've made some interesting episodes seeing here in this episode of TNG, where the ship could also pass through matter. The writers kind of dropped the ball in Deep Space Nine concerning this episode of TNG IMO.
I think if the federation revealed that they had this kind of tech in their back pocket every spy in the quadrant would go after it because it’s such a game changer.
With that kind of interest it’d only be a matter of time before someone gets their hands on it & whoever does would essentially have the ability to just wipe out any ship, station, base, anything they want completely unchallenged, they could absolutely dominate the quadrant with that kind of advantage.
So the best thing to do is to keep it under wraps. Even in a war. It’ll win you the war easily but people aren’t going to forget that a ship *phased through matter*. Info will always leak, the only way to stop that is to not make the info to begin with.
I think Romulans know this too. There’s that one episode where Geordi & Rho where phasing through the ship when they got caught up in a romulan experiment of very similar tech. & it was working fine too! Romulans could phase, engage in combat, even fire weapons while phased **yet they’ve never seemed to use it since**.
Neither the federation nor the romulans want to use phase-tech because it would open a huge can of worms on all sides. They still want to have knowledge of how to do it though. Just in case.
@@Electrolux219 basically like Nukes in our era. Every nation wants to learn the technology, but is very unlikely to ever use it for obvious reasons
The problem was how unstable it was. A whole ship got stuck inside the asteroid because of it. It was simply not ready for deployment and certainly not something you want to be battle-tested by live fire.
@@matasa7463 Another thing to counter the argument is that the Federation/Starfleet wanted to have the Romulans on board against the Dominion. So the choice of using a Romulan cloaking device with a Romulan officer on board (who was conveniently left out after the first appearance of the Defiant) was a diplomatic one as well. They could have asked the Klingons as well, which would have provided a cloak without hesitation, but since the Klingons are already allies, there was no reason to butter them up.
@@Electrolux219A weapon you can't ever use is useless.
I agree with Pressman, that device would have given the federation the edge against the dominon and the borg
I love Riker's look at 4:17
"Excuse the fuck outta ME?"
I'd love to know how Pressman was planning to get out of the asteroid without using his illegal cloak. Or did he really think he could just shout at the crew enough to get them to not talk, ever?
I think he was banking on Riker having his back.
He was probably hoping to hold out long enough for starfleet security to send another ship where he could in theory secure the cloak from outside eyes.
The Romulans outsmarted him. He was hoping to get out before they came back.
Best case scenario, Pressman bullies Picard and the whole Starfleet crew into holding their tongues...and then the winners and honorable mentions of the Captain Picard Day art contest all flap their gums about it the moment they hit Starbase. We gonna court martial the kids now?
@@zorkmid1083 not the question: after the romulans seal the asteroid then pressman says he's taking command. question is how will he get out of the asteroid with the enterprise under his command without using the phase cloak
“Captain, this weeks plot device can get us out of here”
Writers: you just ended your career
Isn't it technically not a cloak? It changes the state of matter into a different phased state, light just happens to pass through as well. But I agree with the admiral, Star Trek could have some interesting stories with ships that can cloak.
Technically a cloak too though. Phasing the Enterprise and all contained within means photons will no longer interact with the ship. If there's no light hitting the ship, you cannot see it.
DS9 does it.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 True but one of very few ships that can.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 DS9 itself doesn't cloak, the USS Defiant does. Even then they had to have a Romulan on board to supervise the use of the cloaking device, and only in the Gamma Quadrant. After the start of the Dominion War and the Romulans actually not siding with the Federation, the ship is somewhat forgotten by the Romulans, allowing Sisko to use its cloak as much as he wants despite the agreed terms.
It didn't matter in the end as in Operation Return the cloak is fried and rendered non operational, then the Defiant itself blows up at Chin'toka. The new Defiant has no such cloak, so we never see it again.
@@SantomPh when I said DS9 I meant the show, not the station.
The romulans forgetting about the super weapon they loaned to one of their greatest threats is really funny. Almost as goofy as when the Klingons donated several cloaking devices to the marquis. The Klingons really are the worst treat faction in that show. Even Gul Dukat after Waltz didn’t get it as bad as the Klingons.
Terry O'Quin played the reoccuring role of "Capt Boone" on JAG & also appeared in different roles mostly ex-military in NCIS..They should've made this ep longer w/a pt.2
Strangely enough, I think the admiral's right. But he also went about this the wrong way. The incompetent way that got people killed and cost the Federation a starship. How was he not court-martialed for that?
If the Federation had any sense of Realpolitik, they would publicly denounce the admiral and claim they destroyed the phasing cloak. While keeping the prototype under lock and key for study, and future deployment.
Then again, this is Trek lore so none of it matters. The Klingons developed a Bird of Prey that could fire while cloaked, whatever happened to their research? Derp.
Discontinued as part of their alliance with the Federation. They still have the research, but they elect not to use it.
@@tek512 that explains a lot
As far as that Bird of Prey is concerned, Chancellor Azetbur banned all such ships to be developed after Chang's ship was destroyed.
I think the fact that he didn't give much of any thought to the lives being lost is what showed he was ultimately wrong. Or, at the very least, that he wasn't doing all of this simply for the sake of the federation or to fend off their enemies.
That Romulan is an ultimate troll.
I love when Pressman says he's taking command Will just gives Picard an "Oh, really?" look.
"Thank you for your generous offer" - love his disrespectful Latin sarcasm.
Picard a true Latino pa que tu lo sepas BRO!
I wonder if Section 31 ever got hold of this technology? A shuttle equiped with this device would be an excellent tool during their spy missions.
or a warhead ... just think about a small bomb under the romulan senate paitently waiting until its time to go BOOM
Or a smal drone that disstripueds a neurotoxin to an troubelsome politicen. Do wath i say or die ... or just die ^^
Or a torpedo witch goes throw mass until it hits his target.
For goundcombat a nice tank. Dive to the enemy. Get your troops easly behind enemy lines and back for raids. ...
Or build a base that can only be accest with this technology.
Or ... ohh, i have too many ...
@@julonkrutor4649 If they were to use it offensively but then the cat would be out of the bag.Which could potentially spark an arms race much like the atomic bomb did after WW2.Keep in mind Section 31 is secretive and as stated the tech violates a peace treaty with the romulans."IF" they created any space craft or vehicles with said tech it would only be a handful.Used if and when necessary during covert ops.Developed in planetary bases and space stations which wont be found on any star map because they wont officially exist.That is not to say they would not find more offensive uses for it like you mentioned or more perhaps in ways we may not have thought of.But only a handful of trusted people would know those were even created.they might not even use them at least not away.The really powerful stuff that could say take out a star ship in one hit even if it is fully shielded.They would keep those hidden away.locked up and kept as a last resort.Like say their was a major Borg incursion into either federation space or another attack against Earth.Only this time with a large fleet with new next gen offensive/defensive tech the federation has yet to encounter and initially wont have any response to defeat it as the Borg may have adapted to their countermeasures just enough where the old tricks will no longer be effective.Their last ace in the hole if you will.
@@stevengreen9536 you couldt get away with this for at least 10 years - if you do not overuse them and do not give them to Starfleet (they are not good at gepping secrets).
After that, well, section 31 had a decat to come up with something new.
I wouldt prepare most of those things - plans for the mass production of the new torpedos for exampel. I also wouldt planed surprises on most eneamy planets to take out key infrastructure ... like nukes only bigger - or at least have something close by - like a smale drone with warp in interstellar space.
And i like the blackmail thing, woouldt work wonders on romulus ^^
Think about ds9 Sloan disappeared all the time and with remote access he could decloak a hatch of the ship and recloak it and fly right through the station
@@julonkrutor4649 Phase bombs already exist. See the episode in DS9 where the Dominion uses them against the Federation, the episode where Nogg loses his leg.
I got to admit, the Romulan Capt. is one cool cat.
Pressman is right, even if he is an arrogant ass, as all Admirals were in Star Trek. To agree to a treaty that gives your mortal enemy a clear and distinctive advantage, on every ship, that lets them strike at the very heart of your territory before you know they are even there is tantamount to suicide. In fact, the plot is the only reason the Romulans didn't already wipe out the Federation and take it over. Even the treaty with the Cardassians wasn't that stupid.
Stellar powers have the means to use what are essentially warp capable ICBMs, so eh, there’s definitely some sort of balance of power going on. And cloaking devices, like say, nuclear powered submarines in reality, are quiet but not undetectable. The Federation clearly tachyon detection grids which can detect cloaked vessels. It does seem a bit off putting to not match an adversaries capabilities, but it is hard to say the plot protected the Federation when it has the means to thwart cloaking devices in the first place. There are submarine detection grids in real life too.
Stinger913
I don’t think Tachyon detection fields were a thing till the Klingon Civil War.
Stinger913
Funny you mention “balance of power” how often tos rejected that notion of needing a balance in power to prevent war.
that moment when you're grateful Worf hasn't got a weapon in his hands!
One of my favorite TNG episodes. Thank you for uploading this good sir!!
Honestly, though, he's kind of right. Starfleet absolutely neutered itself in every way possible, aside from fully disbanding its fleet of luxury cruise ships. The Dominion war showed that pretty clearly.
I can't remember but were the Romulus really that powerful enough to take out starfleet to make this treaty signed ?
A treaty that prevents war for sixty years (and counting) seems like a win.
@Ragitsu But what good is 60 years of peace just loose millions (or was it billions?) Of people in the Dominion War plus the ever lingering possibility of the fall of the Federation?
The Federation was always too quick to make concessions in the name of peace.
And the Federation was able to adapt its fleet into a fighting force to match any other power in the Alpha Quadrant in less than 4 years. The Federation’s advantage is in adaptability, generalized ship performance, and modular upgrade potential, as well as experienced expertise from dozens of worlds on an extremely wide array technologies, including ones superior to normal loadouts, but not commonly distributed.
Unless you had accurate information on the disparate R&D projects of hundreds of worlds, you would never be able to accurately gauge the Federation’s potential strength.
Extended decades of peace gave the Federation time to pursue this research while other powers mostly built up fleets of lesser craft
During commercial breaks, Will and Deanna are playing with the NX-01 program on the holodeck.😝😝😝😝
Oh God, why did you have to remind me that this is where all that takes place 😭
@@vimb1717 Increase post count lol....
Oh God no lmao
i know we try to forget tatv...@@commando21
As much as I hate the Admiral, he's got a point. If the Fed's got a cloke, the elf's wouldn't stand a chance against the combination of intelligence and might that the Fed beings to the table
@@ractaros9611 "further militarisation of Starfleet"
He's got my vote.
Not cuz I Wana see humans kick but. We've been doing that since we first learn to sharpen a stick and arguably a lot further before then. I just Wana see some more epic space battles much like in STO (amazing game BTW a bit of a mess in turm of story ark (beginning middle and end) and is easy to get confused but still an amazing game)
So, few people talking about Worf's "LOL, no!" arm cross.
Adm. Pressman: "I am taking command of this vessel. Mr Worf, escort Capt. Picard to his quarters".
Worf: "How about *"NO?"*
I would agree its stupid... but then i remember how they treated the Romulans my fave race in STP just to further an Android story arc and now i really don't give a shit about the Federation tbh.
Dude have you forgotten the number of nefarious deeds and illegal covert actions the Romulans have done over the years. Hell factions of their own people caused the destruction of Picard's rescue fleet on Mars which in turn gave certain federation and starfleet officials the excuse they needed to pull out of the rescue. Hence the Romulans themselves share in half of blame for their own downfall
@@Lightingwarrior i was blaming shit writing tbh.
That entire cannon was just a dream
in the Novel, the Federation sit by and watch as one of the most important race within the Federation facing Extinct, that is the Andorian, one of the four founding species of the Federation and the Andorian asked the Federation for help, but they do nothing and let the Andorian facing inevitable extinction, the Andorian Imperial Council became angry with the federation and thus withdrawing their membership from the Federation, but only with the help of Julian Bashir, that their Species saved. they're facing extinction due to their mating problem and their confusing Four Genders
*Romulans are Vulcans*
Mr worf escort the captain to his quarters
Worf: no.... I don't think I will ....
I have never actually had a problem with the Treaty of Algeron. From the Romulan perspective, it might also be one of the worse deals ever. In turn, they agreed to a trade embargo with the Federation, coupled with a frequent impasse with the Klingons. That means most of the time, the Star Empire can't trade with their TWO biggest neighbors, and their most trustworthy. I mean sure you can trade with the Breen, Ferengi, and Tholans. Two of those have regular xenophobic cullings; and the third are Ferengi.
david lewis This is actually the first time I’ve known how the Romulans fared under the treaty.
The United Federation of Planets is a massive alliance spanning hundreds of star systems and races. The Romulan Star Empire holds one star system (their own) and the two habitable planets within it (Romulus and Remus). Their cloaking technology is their only real advantage. Of course they want to keep other races from figuring out how to neutralize it.
As far as that goes, the answer is foolishly simple. You neutralize the invisible man's advantage by blinding him. (Turn off all the lights in the room.) Somebody cloaks, you start pumping out white noise on all sensory frequencies. You can't see them, and they can't see to navigate or target their weaponry. Oops....!
@@TheDetailsMatter According to canon (the map from "Balance of Terror") and some not-quite-canon embellishments (Star Trek Star Charts), the Romulan Star Empire is pretty big (something latter-day Trek doesn't quite acknowledge but whatever) and is only surrounded by Klingons and the Feds on three sides... Furthermore (mostly head-canon but it's implied) they conquered those systems (we're talking third-to-half the size of the Feds) and took everything they could, so they had a fairly decent economy and contact with a bit of the galaxy the Feds aren't sure about (the Romulans weren't going to let Starfleet past their space) including trade with other people and, possibly, earlier and more direct contact with the Borg (at least a year before Q showed Picard and crew the Borg but maybe quite a bit longer) and in so doing, they probably can fight the Borg better than the Feds or Klingons (at least initially).
@@TheDetailsMatter It did not go as planned though. The Romulans used fusion based impulse power to power their early warp drives - see Balance of Terror. While still allowing them to travel at warp, it was inefficient, used a lot of fuel and was much slower. They came up with the idea of trading their cloaking technology with the Klingons who made a poor copy of it - gamma issues - for matter/anti-matter reactor technology. They got some old D-7's in the process - see the TOS episode where Kirk disguised as a Romulan steals a device. But, the deal failed, Romulan space had far to little dilithium to use in M/AM reactors and had to develop Micro Singularity power sources, which were still not as powerful as M/AM power generators and thus Warbirds were 30% slower then a Galaxy Class - see Tinman. In the end the Treaty of Algeron did nothing for them except cripple them long into the future.
Cloaking isn't even all that useful in an actual fight. No shields, no weapons and if the enemy even suspects someone is using a cloak nearby you better believe they'd have their own shields and weapons charged and ready so you can't even use a cloak to get an alpha strike off. Hell, since space isn't actually empty you could just scan the area and look for patterns of particle displacement or even the impacts of said particles against the hulls of a moving spaceship.
I just remembered that in ST:ENT Daniels (who was from the future) used a handheld device thst allowed him to phase through walls to get to a conduit
The cloaking device was the ultimate outcome of a centuries old project called the Dharma Initiative.
Even earlier. Philadelphia Experiment.
I'm lost?
Rather than crossing his arms, Worf should have discommended Pressman.
Harder to do without wearing one of those baldrics, nothing to dramatically rip off.
Plus he basically was doing that, just not the way Klingons do it. It's more of how a human crosses their arms, but the implication is the same; to Worf, Pressman is a coward and a traitor without honor.
Christopher Wall Plus the look on his face was basically "Ok boomer"
Show of force is better.
That romulan is the same guy who says ‘Sir a Klingon bird of prey is decloaking off the starboard bow’ in Generatjons.
Was this Commander the only Black Romulan we see on screen?
That was a pretty stupid treaty.
It's a treaty. They usually involve giving up something beneficial in return for something you want.
@@Tleilaxu0 And what did the Feds get back? Don't tell me peace.
And the Romulans tried to kill the Enterprise by trapping them. Fuck em.
@@zorkmid1083 Who knows? We've never seen the full text of the treaty. Presumably some territorial concessions, maybe a ban on certain Romulan weapons technologies or something.
The Federation got to preen it's ego at preserving the moral high ground. They don't get to trade with the Romulans...but they didn't before. They don't get to dress up their ship captain's as Romulans to infiltrate and steal cloaking devices any more (sigh...those were fun times), and they don't get to play in the "submarine warfare" arena along with all the other kids on the playground. But at least they can keep their hands from getting dirty. What a win for our side.
Worf reaction is priceless
Picard meets himself from another dimension
Other Picard. “ Yes, Wolf 359 was unfortunate. One or two ships destroyed•”
Picard “ We lost over half the fleet!”
Other Picard “ Well, our Federation was never stupid enough to give up the right to cloaking technology…”
Picard: We specifically agreed not to develop cloaking technology
Also Picard: How do we use the cloak to escape this asteroid?
Well, they agreed to not develop it, not to use it, whereever it comes from.
Indeed, since they had an alliace with Klingons, they could just use the ones developed and produced by the Klingons.
It always seams when a senior officer screw up they always pull rank to get out of it and then use friends to to back them to do it.
For Admiral Pressman it seemed that the alliance with the Klingon Empire was not enough to keep the Romulans in check. He wanted to insure that there was some sort of contingency plan, if the Federation's bond with the Klingons would sour over the course of time.
This cloak would have been so helpful in the dominion war. Starfleet commend was stupid to sign that treaty. All they got out of it was peace and an established neutal zone with the Romulan violated repeatedly. Pichard should have exited and left cloaked.
You are right. Also Picard was tremendously foolish in decloaking in front of the Romulans. It would have only made them more paranoid then they were.
To be fair, the treaty sent the romulans in to isolation for over 53 years. Isolation from the federation at least, though they had skirmishes with the Klingons
If Picard exited and left cloaked, it would've been a dead giveaway what the Federation had when the Romulans got sick of waiting, went in after them, and not only found them gone with no apparent means of escape, but that other ship stuck in the rock. Proactively letting the Romulans see what happened signaled they were still operating in good faith.
@@Regfife they could have use torpedoes to blow up the asteroid while shifting opposite the romulan ship and claim they just managed to cut their way out before it collapsed.
they could have tried cutting and then shifted if things got bad, with a similar outcome.
They could have detonated torpedoes, shifted out and left. then just appear later on with no explanation, or a cryptic one. the romulans already know or they wouldn't be there searching in the first place. as long as they can't confirm it you are fine (which is the same trick they've used on the federation and picard numerous times, turnabout is fair play).
There was no reason to give the romulans more ammunition for their propoganda
@@sglkh3r6f9h Interesting ideas, but if the asteroid collapsed as they were trying to bust out, and they had to phase out to avoid getting pulverized, then how would they phase back in without materializing in the rock or in front of the Romulans?
I guess they could still have gotten clear and then phased in, letting the Roms think they'd been crushed, but when they learned later that the Enterprise is still jetting around, they'd wonder what happened, giving them a potential lead to follow.
That man has an obsessive personality. In Lost as John, he was just as obsessed with the island as he is with the damn clocking device...
How does Riker know? Twelve years ago, did they tell every crew member about this experiment that violated the treaty, just expecting them to keep quiet about it? Logically, they would have tested it on a ship with a crew as small as possible, all hand picked.
3:30 - We're in space, Data. HOW could the chasm, "collapse" in zero G? Is there enough mass for it to collapse in on itself? Any internal explosion would blow chunk out and away in all directions.
It is a very large asteroid, I wouldn't call it zero G. It wouldn't so much "collapse" in on itself, it'd be more like a slow motion avalanche, thousands and thousands of tons of rock and debris pouring in towards the center of the asteroid.
Maybe cause the asteroid is large enough to have a gravitational field?
Cutting out and using shields.... good plan - especially going out the (hot) way they came in.
Ah the Romuluns, always so cordial and helpful. Now that is the Romuluns I remember.
*Romulans are Vulcans*
The cloak must stick around for awhile under lock and key and in All Good Things the Enterprise has a cloak that looks a lot like the one used in this episode. I was really hoping in Picard that Starfleet had cloaks as by that time the Romulan Star Empire was a mere remnant of its old self thanks to the destruction of Romulus.
Pressman: "None of you are authorised to know about that device. Commander Data you're with me I need you to get that device working. Lt Worf execute the rest of the crew and then report to Commander Data for an honourable death."
Data: "A strict reading of the regulations states that what you are asking would constitute an illegal order."
Worf: "Klingons do not follow illegal orders! ... Also if anyone asks in the future I wasn't here and therefore will have no memories about about being on a Federation ship with a cloaking device. Tell them I was knocked out by slipping on a banana peel or something and missed the whole thing"
The one time Worf successfully defends the bridge
The arguments on this page actually do a wonderful job of showing Master thinking vs. Slave thinking. IE "The law says I can't do that." vs. "The law says I'm allowed to do that."
In any case, a law (including a treaty) has to define what a given thing is in order to render it illegal. The language of the treaty would have to be reviewed to determine how a cloaking device is defined within the treaty, and whether or not the phase cloak actually falls under that definition. If it falls in that definition it is banned, if it doesn't, it is not. Since the show never tells us how its actually defined, we don't actually know whether or not it would fall under the limits of the treaty. Picard & Riker obviously think so, but it would be up to a judge to determine, or more likely given that its a treaty, the ambassadors of the respective states.
Just hope whoever is looking at it doesn't view things the way the ATF in the US does.
"Cloaking devices are illegal."
"This isn't a cloaking device."
"We think it is, therefore it is. Also, we have to confiscate your deflector while we're at it."
"The deflector is not a cloaking device."
"The deflector can be modified to trap visible light and render you invisible. Therefore your main deflector is a cloaking device and we'll have to confiscate it."
"But...that's not what the deflector is used for."
"Doesn't matter. You have the ability to do it, so that is constructive possession of a cloaking device."
"Damn it."
"Also. We're taking all the shower curtains."
"How could you possibly justify that?"
"A shower curtain keeps you from being seen. Therefore it is a cloaking device."
"Its a shower curtain. Its not a cloaking device. That doesn't even make sense."
"It keeps you from being seen, therefore it *is* a cloaking device. Now, about your shield system..."
"Please make it stop."
Yeah, there's a reason fiction doesn't deal with this kind of stuff. When its not mind-numbingly boring, its so over-the-top stupid the audience would have trouble believing it.
Picard's look of "Well, now".
"Riker, why do you find it so hard to believe?"
In my opinion, this is one of the best episodes of the series. Whose orders does Riker follow? Does he follow Admiral Pressman out of a misplaced sense of loyalty? Or does he follow Captain Picard and unveil Pressman's wilful violation of the Treaty of Algeron, regardless of the consequences to himself?
If it was you in this situation, what would you do?
No orders are valid if they are unlawful theres no conflict Riker should have reported it to jag 12 years earlier and deffinitely should have as soon as pressman came on board
Rat Pressman out immediately. The worst that will happen is that I get discharged from Starfleet. Big deal - civilian life in the Federation is a utopian paradise. I don't need a job to make a living, which is the biggest reason why workplace abuse goes unreported in our modern world. Starfleet needs me, more than I need Starfleet. And I'm sure I can find something worthwhile to do with my time outside of the organisation.
Mister worf escort the Captain to his quarters
Yes sir
roll credits
I do agree with the admiral, that aspect of the treaty is one of the worst decisions the Federation ever made.
Break your word and see how long your name lasts on the galactic scale.
@@Ragitsu Have you ever danced with the devil _In The Pale Moonlight?_
@@wyattmann8157 Crap Trek.
While the treaty was a bit of a pain, I'm sure there would be certain situations where a cloak could be used in an emergency without causing an issue.
Cloaking to escape from a Borg invasion perhaps?
The Borg have ways to detect cloaked ships, as they've encountered Romulans and Klingons before.
the Borg can see through cloaks. Cloaking is pointless against them
God I miss this show!!😭😭😭
I can understand where Pressman was coming from but also I understand where Picard was coming from too I think Picard was afraid of Federation going down a slippery slope.
He should have ordered Data to escort Capt. Picard. He would have had better luck. Slightly better chance than ordering the most Honorable Klingon who respects his Captain. 🤣
The look data gave worf when the admiral ordered worf to escort the captain to his quarters. Data is looking at worf like don’t you dare
4:03 "Biggest mistake." That became clear the first time they saw a D'deridex uncloak. Cloaks were no longer only for small, raiding ships.
DON’T TELL ME WHAT I CAN’T DO!
Oh wait, wrong show…
My issue with this episode is that Riker has no insensitive whatsoever to help him. Even the choice at the end is expose the cloak or die.
Couldn't they have developed a phase-sheild that simply didn't cloak. It wouldn't make them invisible, it also wouldn't violate the treaty. But if you shot at them, your bullets aka your torpedos or phasers would pass right through without interacting with you. It would still be a very powerful weapon and we know it works very well.
"... your torpedos or phasers would pass right through without interacting with you."
You might want to look up the definition of invisibility (aka cloaking). It's the /interaction/ of light with matter that makes it visible in the first place. No interaction with anything = perfect invisibility.
This would have been even better if Crusher was on the bridge at the time and rubbed salt in the admirals wound by declaring him loop in her medical opinion and confining him to quaters instead
Starfleet's mistake was telling Admiral Locke what he couldn't do.
It happened because Gene Roddenberry wasn't about to have the great Starship Enterprise sneaking through space.
I love how the cloaking device is a cheap looking $40 prop with two wires hanging out
And then a couple of years after this, the DS9 crew got the Defiant with a cloaking device loaned to them from the Romulans, and it was only ever supposed to be operated by a Romulan officer on board the Defiant with no federation officers of crewmen going near it.
Except that they almost immediately dropped that and the DS9 crew just continued to use the cloaking device on their own without the help of a Romulan there, forever after. They just ignored the treaty and didn't give a shit and neither did the Romulans, weirdly.
So if Admiral Pressman had just waited a couple of years then he would have got what he wanted and wouldn't have torched his whole career lol. What an idiot lol
if TNG was around today, i am almost sure, that it would be shown to the viewers that, Pressman was a member of section 31.
If they didn’t waste their time arguing they would have returned the the Enterprise and left the asteroid.
great episode