Star Trek The Next Generation - Justification of a preemptive strike vs. Picard
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ส.ค. 2010
- Another starship captain starts a preemptive war all by himself, kills 700 people and then tries to justify it in front of Picard.
The episode's title is " The Wounded". Hole on the outside, damaged on the inside due to the inhumanity of war itself, invisible to the naked eye. - บันเทิง
![Yoshi Rinrada - 'มาทำไม' [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r41xbfRLkLs/mqdefault.jpg)
I like how PIcard says, "You have killed nearly 700 people." He refers to them as people and not Cardassians. A small detail but an important one.
We need to use that word more often today, instead of words denoting race, nationality, political affiliation or sexual orientation.
Which is why I think Picard got it wrong permitting him the "dignity" of retaining his command. He was already willing to kill 700 people--therefore his judgement cannot be trusted and that action ends up costing more lives later. I know the story would have been disrupted with that action but Picard should not have let Maxwell retain command.
I grew up in the church, but when I say I learned my morals from watching this show and observing Picard, I mean it.
@@jontilden3082 And Picard was dead wrong. Even in the end, his sacrifice of the truth wasn't enough to stop the Dominion War.
Very observant, and honestly true. Somthing all sides of political spectrum do is try to dehumanize the "others" so when they choose to opress them they arent views as the bad guys
Reading a lot of comments here where people seem to be missing the point. Picard isn't dismissing Maxwell's suspicions. Maxwell may be right, but that doesn't give him the authority to unilaterally decide to engage in hostilities against a sovereign power with which the Federation has a peace treaty. Picard even acknowledges the suspicious nature of the Cardassian activities and warns the Cardassian officer at the end of the episode that the Federation will be watching them closely.
The point of Picard's disapproval here isn't to dismiss Maxwell's suspicions, but that his suspicious do not justify his actions.
Well said. A complete and professional explanation.
Its good to see there is someone who understands how the world works.
he could have done it better but what did the federation do afterwards. Nothing. heck they gave territory away (without consent of the people living their i might add) So the apthay and sheer stupidity of the fed politcians led to a more cost Dominion war in the future.
Revkor If we consider only the visible costs and not the hidden gains, Im sure we can justify anything and everything in the world.
How about this: Federation is able to keep peace in a dozen borders and and its member states happy because it is trustworthy. Take that away, and it leads to cold wars everywhere despite "promises".
After all, the promise of the Federation means nothing, if every one of its thousand captains can unilaterally declare war on its behalf.
Furthermore, the Federation can declare war without breaking a peace treaty by ordering a captain to start a war.
Further than that, Federation can LEGALLY wage a war while still claiming to be in peace, since its starship captains could attack foreign nations independently and without fear of reprisal.
"Uh, deres nuffink we can do ubbout it, we cant control our own mil`try anymore.
Sorry about your dead. Friends?"
Such a policy would make the federation look like a nation that civilized peoples (everyone else) should exterminate for the good of all, and also an inviting target, since if Starfleet Command cannot order its captains around, it must be already weakened to the point of lying on its deathbed.
The point is that the point is not whether the attack is good tactics. The point is that its illegal, bad diplomacy, a deathblow for all military discipline, and bad strategy.
Its like fixing a car with limited money, and buying expensive set of tyres, not fixing the engine and walking 10 miles to work for the next year, being late every day, and losing your job, and never affording to fix your car again.
So yes, its nice to have good and dependable tyres, but not at the cost of everything else.
Now, everyone:
- Trust is the credit that diplomacy works with, and its only true currency.
If your word is good as gold, it IS worth gold.
If you cannot be trusted, its like going to the bank, asking for a loan and having an empty account and several unpaid loans.
The Klingons are allies to the Federation because of trust. They call it honor. Federation keeps its word and is honorable.
The Romulans did not join the Dominion because of trust. Dominion is way more powerful, but untrustworthy.
Romulans were just waiting for a sneak attack by Dominion, but peace was kept with the Federation, because it was not seen as possibility that Federation would declare war.
Had not the Cardassians been severely humiliated and weakened both externally and internally, they would never have joined the Dominion against Federation. Had they been allowed to save face during their losses, they would easily have allied with the Federation.
Even the Dominion is not an exemption to this:
They are not naturally xenophobic, they learned it the hard way. They started believing they are universally hated, and cannot trust anyone, ever.
Had the changelings met the Federation before they became the Dominion, they would have joined it, not fought it.
Odo showed this. A changeling found by people who accepted him. Certainly Dr. Mora did not coddle him, and the Cardassians were not nice people, but they still accepted him, unlike what happened to other changelings. And as a result, he felt more kinship with the peoples of Alpha Quadrant than with his own.
About "consent" of the people... They should have left the Federation BEFORE the treaty was made. They were part of the Federation, with the same rights as everyone else, and the same duties as everyone else. In a democracy, the people give their consent every election day.
If they do not like whats happening, they can vote for representatives who support seceding from the greater whole, or to gain autonomy.
You cant choose to get good roads and police and fire departments and choose not to pay taxes. You cant choose to buy stuff and choose not to pay for it.
In politics, sometimes bad things happen to good people who did not ask for it. But in a good country, bad things do not get piled up on the same group, and good things are received to compensate.
Often people do not pay attention to these good things, or to the price that other people have to pay. But when they face the bad things themselves, they start crying for justice, even when any change, any - action by the government - would actually be injustice towards everyone else.
And yes, if I remember correctly, the Federation - traded - territory away, and received an equal amount in exchange.
So Federation did not lose face or appear weak in any way. And still, its possible to give territory away and not appear weak. Thats way more complicated, but its still possible.
*****
If they had won the war then why did they have to give up land. The issue here is showing the failure of centralized government. For again after this incident what did the Federation do. Nothing and worse give up land again without consent and again showing a disconect between the Council and the people. Hence the Maquis to come having several federation officers join them because of the bullcrap the government did. And if they declared war then instead of later. there would have been a different government for the union eariler. Thus no reason for the Klingons to invade and no reason to the fight the fed. THe Dominion gets no foothold in the alpha quadrant if the war itself even happens. The truth is the Cardassians were already starting to violate the treaty. and less lives lost now then in DW
Revkor You know what? You are completely right. Picking and choosing that information, basing your logic on those claims, that is exactly true.
However, I dont agree with your facts, but dont let it stop you. ;-)
What bothers me though, is that you stop simulating these events at a point most suitable to your claim. It tells me that most likely you have a real-life agenda behind you. Which you think about the same way as this.
First the agenda, then the suitable facts, then the logical solution.
Which in the end might not be logical at all.
Maybe it is not Star Trek you wish to talk about, or this particular situation, but centralized government in general?
So I ask you this: If given a chance to choose between losing your home, or keeping your home, but having someone you do not know die so you could keep it, which one would you choose?
*"Information comes my way"*
From whom?
*"Lives were at stake"*
Whose lives?
*"We had to act now!"*
Why?
*"I did what had to be done!"*
What had to be done?
I love Picard in these moments; no platitudes or moralising speeches; just simple questions that cut through the other captain's cliched pronouncements and forces him to actually think about what he's done.
Geez, it's Trump all over again!
Picard went full Socrates on that guy.
Picard knew fully well that there was more to this than Captain Maxwells rogue actions. What the Cardassians had done to his family during the war. Picard knew that this was payback for those atrocities. But the treaty was in place, and Captain Picards orders from Starfleet Command were to stop Maxwell by almost any means. Including firing on his ship, the USS Phoenix.
But why TF did Picard let him beam back to his ship. That doesn't make sense at all.
@@nuclearwinter391 he was trying to give a fellow captain a bit of dignity, he says as much
When you can’t rely on special effects, you’re forced to focus on things like writing, acting, etc.
Even then, TNG's effects were pretty good, all considered.
@@swishfish8858 But expensive. Now effects are cheap, good acting and good scripts are expensive.
@@dijikstra8 You kidding? Making this shit now costs a fortune and special effects are extremely expensive but it's what sells. That's why they have explosions and action in every episode.
Millo AF No. People cost money. People make films. Lighting, set construction and design, costume design and wardrobe, riggers, actors, directors, cameramen etc. Those people need to be fed, accommodated, managed and that all costs way more money than the effects will. How do films get made these days? You cut all that down to practically zero, end up with a substandard production with effects draped over it to try and mask the failings. What used to happen was the effects took a nosedive to preserve the things you really needed but now that stuff, sets and lighting and extras in particular, that gets cut out altogether if it can be done inside a computer with blue screen. Because it will always be cheaper to reproduce these things inside a computer than it will be to provide them in real life. That’s why these things look so shoddy comparatively.
If i recall correctly TNG was pretty expensive at the time with an average of half a million dollar per episode.
TNG talks about actual issues and real human dilemmas, a different kind of television.
And it did so without relying on extreme, blood-soaked plot devices or killing off a major character every week.
Snuggles McSquishbottom
I am guessing a game of thrones reference or perhaps walking dead?
+kuribo1 I was thinking of GoT, but any show that starts substituting shock for substance fits the bill.
I find TOS more entertaining, but this is a very interesting show, i have to admit.
What's ToS?
"One more thing Gal Macet: Maxwell was right. Those ships were not carrying 'scientific equipment' --were they? a 'research station' within arms reach of three Federation sectors? Cargo ships running with high energy subspace fields that jam sensors? "
"If you believed the transport ship was carrying weapons captain, why didn't you board it as Maxwell requested?"
"I was here to protect the peace. A peace that I firmly believe is in the interest of both our peoples. If I had attempted to board that ship, I'm quite certan that you and I would not be having this 'pleasant conversation' and that ships on both sides would now be arming for war."
"Captain, I assure you-"
"Take this message to your leaders Gal Macet-- we'll be watching."
I was waiting for this part in the video!.
*turns away menacingly*
_Gul_ Macet, actually. It's a Cardassian rank, roughly equivalent to captain.
th-cam.com/video/5WHAUzBNoKw/w-d-xo.html
Kinda why the Germans sank the Lusitania?
As it turned out, Maxwell was right about what the Cardassians were doing. He was only wrong in the way he handled it.
Picard knew it too, we can see at the end of the episode
Oftentimes the premise is correct, but improperly carried out.
He was also wrong about the consequences of his actions, as seen in DS9. The war still came, greater than anyone could imagine, and soon enough that Picard was still Captain of the Enterprise.
@Sunday Girl Perhaps he thought that Starfleet was very aware of the situation but didn‘t counteract within an appropriate timeframe… They have been both right, but one has chosen the wrong way of handling it.
@@EditDeath Only came because of a combination of an unprovoked Klingon attack on the Cardassians as well as aid from a faction that lives on the other side of the galaxy.
With the context of DS9 behind it, this episode got even better, aging like a fine wine. Maxwell was right, more right than even he realized. But Picard was also right. Suspicion of the Cardassians was justified but Maxwell's actions in response certainly were not.
Actually, with the context of DS9 they should have followed Maxwells suggestion and intercepted one of the Transports. The main reason the Cardassians were such tough opponents in the Dominion war is exactly because they had the Dominion at their side. While competent Cardassia was still clearly inferior to the Federation at this point and the War could be won comperatively easily, especially if the Klingons joined the fray. That way the Dominion wouldn't have gained a Foothold in the alpha quadrant and be completely shut out with the mining of the Wormhole.
Of course they couldn't know that, but it's still interesting to think about.
@@Thatslifebro_ That would've required someone to pull a Christopher Pike and see the future though. The problem is that what little future sight there is in Star Trek tends to not have context.
Thats what was great about DS9, it continued a LOT of TNGs loose threads
@@Thatslifebro_ Not necessarily. The Cardassia that was allied to the Dominion was a massively weakened barely functional new administration, that was essentially controlled, first by Dukat and then by Damar. That combination of factors, that Cardassia had been weakened and humiliated time and time again, was part of what resulted in a Cardassian Uprising at the critical moment.
Cardassia at this point had the full might of the Military Dictatorship, had the fully intact Obsidian Order raring to go (Which also we know later, enjoyed friendly relations with the Talshiar. Romulus at this point was also *much* more hostile to the Federation and to the Klingon Empire.
A Federation Cardassian War approximately, what, 10 years earlier would have been between a *much* more potent Cardassian Empire, and would have left the entire Alpha Quadrant exposed to the Dominion when 10 years later, they became aware of the Federation.
Such a hypothetical Dominion War may have broken out far earlier if the Federation was aggressively searching for allies in the Gamma Quadrant, bringing them into contact with the Dominion Earlier, shown them at a more vulnerable time. It may have led to Cardassia aligning with the Dominion without being a Member of the Dominion, with the Military, the Obsidian Order and the total economic and societal collapse that followed the return of the civilian government in Cardassia. An earlier war with the Dominion may have It may have also led to them aligning with other powers in the Alpha Quadrant from the get go. The Breen Confederacy - or maybe even the Romulan Star Empire. (Who, only entered the War due to the feared ambitions of Cardassian Territorial Pretensions on their space.
A Federation-Cardassian War in this Era may have doomed not just the Federation, but the Entire Alpha Quadrant in the long term. It would almost certainly have involved covert Romulan Support for the Cardassians, and devastated both sides calamitously. More importantly though, such an outbreak of war would have killed the Alpha Quadrant Coalition against the Dominion in the Cradle, and there would have been no Cardassian Uprising behind Dominion lines, both factors which were essential to the defeat of the Dominion in the original timeline even if the Federation *hadn't* been exhausted from fighting a multi year war with Cardassia by the time the Dominion War inevitably broke out.
Of course, that relies on a number of assumptions, but I think they are reasonable assumptions.
@@Thatslifebro_ I'd disagree entirely. First off, this was right after Wolf 359 and the Federation wasn't at its strongest. The Admiral makes it clear in this episode that they're not in a good place for war.
Maxwell risked plunging the Federation into a war they were not ready to wage. He was also wrong about its imminence. The entire crux of Maxwell's position was that he had to act immediately, without reporting to Starfleet Command first. Essentially, he was claiming this situation was the same as the incident in "The Defector," - in which Picard still got Admiralty approval to make the final call, too.
Maxwell was also wrong, in that the threat he was concerned about wasn't the Dominion War, but the border invasion that played out in "Chain of Command." An invasion that the Federation prevented, partly because they were in a better military position when it finally came to that event. As Pcard pointed out to Gul Macet, the Federation were never buying the Cardassian's peace deal. Maxwell wasn't alone in not trusting the terms of the treaty. It just wasn't his call to declare war.
But the biggest point against Maxwell's call to war is what ultimately drove the Cardassians into the arms of the Dominion in the first place and that was because they got invaded by the Klingons. It was that preemptive strike that led to the war. Prior to that, the Cardassians were well on their way to becoming a Federation ally. No war meant that the Alpha Quadrant would have been more united come the discovery of the Dominion. Conflict among the major powers was what resulted in the war.
I really like the clip that follows this up where Picard implies he fully believes all the claims that the captain is making, which is why in this clip he is specifically criticizing the methodology of the attack. It's not paranoid delusions, it's vastly overstepping his station.
Bob Gunton's acting resume must read something like: "Professional Antagonistic Authority Figure"
A lot of character actors are typecast that way. Danny Trejo is always a tough. Ron Dean is always a cop, usually a detective. Dale Dye always a military officer, usually a colonel or higher.
He was a friendly and helpful guy in some of the later seasons of 24
Hey, as long as it pays the bills.
'Got killed by John Travolta via torch to the windpipe.'
@@bodieofci5418 Broken Arrow lol
Putting aside the Cardassian issue, I love how this scene puts two veteran Starfleet captains in the same room. Picard and Maxwell ooze gravitas. The acting is excellent.
🌬☃️
I disagree, I think Stewart's acting level here is far beyond the other actor, who kind of chews his lines instead of delivering his lines
Easily one of the best TNG episodes... Bob Gunton is one of the most underrated actors ever and rarely gets the recognition he deserves.
This is his second best role. He will always be Warden Norton to me.
@kdryan21 Thank you, I was going to say the same thing, such a wonderful performer.
@@cteal2018
How could you be so obtuse?
😂
I love how patient Picard is in such a discussion. I wish I could be like that.
+Ancaneon That's how we all are in our own heads.
I wish i could be like Picard too, but then again you don't become a captain if you're not a calm, rational person. Kinda ironic in this scene.
+Clement Lee Shows that we are not talking about real life sadly :/
+Ancaneon Fairly easy. Take personalities out of it, take labels out of it and it becomes a discussion about the facts. Picard in the beginning is peeling back the other guys argument to the facts, you can start to see where someone is weak by the amount they rely on the discussion of a character or label rather than a demonstrateable fact. Picard strays into this territory toward the end where he's using guess work for his position, discussing possible motivations, whereas he started off strong (and finished strong). I should say discussing this way, avoiding character assassination especially, you'll get insight in discussions and quite often learn something new or a new perspective at the least.
Now that I am looking at it again, I never understood why Picard didn't throw the Captain in a cell. Seriously. Imagine your self in the same situation, talking with someone who killed nearly 700 lives, and after what he just said, you still allow him to command a vessel of such power? Doesn't make any sense. No one would ever do that in real life.
Remember when Star Trek was about stuff like this. Yeah, those were the good years of scifi.
+kxmode I'd kill to see B5 get the same face lift TNG got recently.
+kxmode Now it's about lens flares and explosions.
Meow Meow
lol
+kxmode There are rumors that the new series is going to be more like old trek, actually addressing current issues.
+kxmode There hasn't been a good sci-fi show since stargate atlantis ended :(
I wish Maxwell had been released from prison when the Dominion War had started and guest starred on DS9 during The Dominion war, would've been great to see Bob Gunton return to the role.
There was a novel in which he featured, but it was lackluster at best.
That would make the Federation Justice system a joke, a Captain cant just go around and strike bases of other Nations as he wants, that would be like an Captain of an US ship attacking Iran without Orders from the President.
@@shadowsayan3454considering how large the Dominion War was, I could see the Federation commuting Maxwells sentence through Starfleet service. They needed every officer they could get their hands on, and one that not only had extensive experience, but experience fighting the Cardassians would be invaluable. Obviously, he’d need some form of oversight to prevent him from going on another rampage, but the benefits would outweigh the risks
"I'll accept the judgement of history"
Similar to Fidel Castro's famous "History will absolve me"
Considering how the Dominion War played out...I'd say Maxwell would be judged better than Picard.
@@shruk4 And boy was he wrong.
@@dullan123 wrong
@@dullan123 a very similar situation to the video, did the wrong thing for the right reasons. Nobody is gonna say Cuba was better off before him but it doesn't excuse the things he did with his power.
"what the kardashians have or have not done is irrelevant"
That pretty much sums it up.
+marvin van zon Cardassians, not Kardashians.
+wv9mm they are not the same. One is a family, the other is a race.
+wv9mm I do know, I just don't see this as one.
Bert Visscher Yeah... I meant it as a joke. It was a pretty bad joke.
+Bert Visscher You must be fun at parties
"I know what they're doing! I can smell it..."
Like a fart in the wind....
He's being so obtuse...
oh shit, it's totally the Warden. i never put it together.
alexhortdog95 saw what you did there. :3
And that fart wouldn't have created the diarrhea shit storm in the future that we see in Deep Space 9 if Picard had grown a pair of balls and realized that he was right all along. Kardashians are cancer!
Thank you. I knew there was a Shawshank joke in there, just waiting.
I like how Picard makes him explain what he did and why. Picard just simply asks "why?" "from whom?" and "where is your documentation?" He gets the other captain to realize what he's done rather than come at him with accusations. "Whose lives were at stake?" We had to act! "Why?"
Really good writing, here.
One of Trek's core strengths is that it recognizes the value of both emotion and reason. You see Picard listening to Maxwell make his case, and all he had was a hunch and illicit "information". He immediately knew Maxwell couldn't convince Command, let alone help his case in a very possible court martial. So he cross-examines Maxwell, trying to convince him that his testimony won't hold up at all, particularly in light of the fact that he's already destroyed Cardassian ships and crew.
You see this in the 6th film as well. Spock knew the crew desperately wanted to race into Klingon space to rescue Kirk, but he also knew they would all be court martialed or abandoned by Starfleet to the Klingons unless they could make the case that the rescue was justified. "We require evidence."
It would have been very easy for Picard to join Maxwell and inspect a Cardassian ship, as he too is a veteran of the war with the Cardassians. But it would have given the Cardassians the perfect excuse to escalate: Maxwell blew up these peaceful ships and stations! He had no proof of weapons! I'm sure Macet had convoys of decoy vessels at this point, hoping Maxwell would latch onto one of them and get rope-a-doped into a diplomatic crisis.
The guy was proven right in the episode though
@@poopoo7705 the ends don't justify the means
@@joda7697they did here. The means were fine. The reasoning was not. You’re not using this phrase in the correct context. He didn’t kill a bunch of innocent people, to get one bad one. He killed bad people, and the “means” were that they were hiding under the guise of being good people. His means were right, his justification was wrong.
Except he didn't. Maxwell just ignored all the questions and decided to huff about it and call Picard a bureaucrat. Maxwell didn't 'realize what he'd done' at all.
A little unknown fun fact is that Maxwell managed to escape the authorities after being captured, stole a starship and travelled back in time by slingshotting his ship around the sun, in turn arriving in the 20th century. There he changed his identity and became an obtuse prison warden.
Who are you calling obtuse??? A month of solitary!!!
that's hilarious!!!
Wha..
What did you call him?
wat?
Damn fine acting here
Patrick Stewart and Bob Gunton are fantastic.
I agree
I kept expecting Warden Norton to pull out a Bible and start quoting scripture.
I didn't even realize that was the same guy. @@stephenjackson6111
back when studios used to hire actual studied actors rather than doofuses they gathered off the street (*cough* star wars)
That simple "Why?" from Picard is so powerful to me; so full of honest puzzlement, even a bit of tragic grief. Very impactful scene.
I love that he's using such a simple, unexpected question to try and make Maxwell truly consider the situation again. His proof, his actions, and the consequences of taking those actions. Maxwell was unwilling to; its why he lost his temper at the end of the conversation. He didn't have evidence, his actions were poorly thought out, and the consequences were devastating.
*hwhy*
The Shawshank warden knew what they were up to
"I permit you the dignity of retaining your command during the voyage, but the only alternative is to put you in the brig and tow your ship to the star-base in disgrace." Sheeesh thats how you do it Picard!!!!
how can you be so obtuse?
+individualist00000 Boy, you are forgetting yourself.
I'd be just as inditable as you for laundering that gold pressed latinum
Don't you ever mention money to me again, you sorry son of a bitch! Not in this office, not anywhere!
+katey1dog Give him another thirty days to think it over.
Or am I being obtuse?
Picard asks the guy how does he know what he knows and he just says “information comes my way.” Sounds like code for Section 31.
Sounds like a guy trying hard not to say "I had a hunch"
Can we please pretend that whole subplot of DS9 never happened
@@shadda Yeah I loved DS9 but the entire Section 31 arc was awful. Really went against the entire Star-Trek "aesthetic."
@Gen. JFH What the fuck are you on about?
@Gen. JFH What good are morals if you are willing to break them? "One who stands for nothing falls for anything" goes the other way around too. You'll justify anything if it means you can sleep soundly, fiction or no, so don't pretend to be all high and mighty bro.
Picard: Why would you take unilateral action like Michael Burnham did, dragging the Federation into the costly Klingon War?
Maxwell: Who?
This is the power of math, people!
@@saberiandream316 I don't quite understand the reference, never got into Disco
@@mmjahink th-cam.com/video/MxaFnx8GGX8/w-d-xo.html
@@saberiandream316 Huh? The guys who wrote that were clearly not fans...
Oh ffs, Burnham didn't start the war. Georgiou did. Burnham was trying to prevent war, trying to speak the Klingon language of honorable combat. That's how the Enterprise C did it, after all; fight until they couldn't anymore. Earn the Klingons' respect. The one lore-friendly thing DSC tried and it's one of the most criticised.
If we're going to shit on Disco, shit on what deserves to be shit on, like Stamets and Tilly. And BurnhamXTyler. And the premise of both seasons. And the poorly-chosen time period. And the needless focus on action. And the ugly uniforms. And the binge structure (GAHD I hate it, I want a series not a 10-hour movie). And the bad writing. And the bad fanservice.
I love Saru though, we can keep Saru.
Conflict shows who we truly are. Picard will not abandon his values even if it is difficult. The other captain will abandon his principles to do what he feels must be done. This scene is great shows two people on the same side of a conflict disagreeing on what steps must be taken to win. I miss TNG
You can always tell a man has made a mistake when he turns to insults when you ask a simple question: "Why?"
The thing I love best about this episode is that it really shows how much sits on the captains' shoulders. Their administration is out there in the near reaches of the galaxy, their crew are generally following their commands, and it is endemic on the captains of these ships themselves what to do. Picard could very easily have followed along, checked a transport ship, started the war off early. Kirk might have done precisely that. But Picard was a different kind of captain. The task of deciding essentially the foreign policy and the morality of an entire Federation was on his shoulders.
In a way, I kind of feel that sort of weight. I never thought of myself as being in a lofty position, I'm just some guy on the internet. But we are all our own little outposts of initiative, bearing the responsibility of our reputations in whatever identities we're associated with. It just sort of struck me that the whole "it doesn't matter what the Cardassians have done" thing holds true throughout life, not just on starships on the show. Who we are as people isn't about what other people are doing, it's about holding ourselves accountable.
This show taught me a lot about life. One of those times when a sequel show is, I think, far better than its predecessor (and I loved the original Star Trek very much).
I don't know that you're being fair to Kirk.
look at the Eurpoean powers between the world worlds. Hitler broke treaty and they basically ignored it and it lead to WW2
Good god Eric I hope you've gotten a hold of yourself in the last 3 years LMAO.
You pecking away at your little laptop is a pretty far cry from feeling anything the captain of any ship would feel.
It's just a show son. Just a show... -smh
@@mckinleymac3452 He wasn't talking about commenting he was talking about the way we operate as humans throughout our daily lives in a broad sense. And yes, it's just a show, just a show that asks you to think about morality, politics, history, religion, and culture. He's literally just engaging with the show on the topics it's presenting and asking the audience to ponder. Why anyone would watch TNG and not at all be interested in further discussing the moral issues presented in the episodes is beyond me.
I think that is a very fine and profound post.
Warden Norton. I love that actor seeing him every so often. But that aside amazing how this video posted now nine years ago still not only shows TNGs incredible writing without all the lasers and booms always needed to make compelling television but shows how great of a captain Jean-Luc really is.
What makes it painful is Maxwell's clear sense of betrayal as well, even if part of him knew Picard had a point; he was clearly thinking that the man who helped bring down the Borg and nearly lost his life and soul to them would understand, more than a bureaucratic desk officer would. We've all felt that gut punch when someone we counted on to have our back abandons us, even if we knew we weren't altogether in the right to ask them.
It's a flimsy story, what idiots would put a man who had his family killed by Cardassians ON the Cardassian border? and then expect him to play nice... stupidity. Picard acted like that against the borg in First contact, he went nuts.. wow
This dude could have done a better job convincing Picard if he turned the crazy down a little bit
Now that's a tall order when you're in a bureaucrats office
It's hard to turn down the crazy of killing 700 people on a wimb
He was right that is was a station and Picard knows that. But he still did the wrong thing Picard was keeping the peace.
The crazy is exactly at the right levels for the scene. This is exactly how these people are.
They wrote the crazy to make it more easy for the audience to favor Picard's view point . I'm sure he had quite a bit of evidence. How different it would have been if star fleet had the evidence and failed to act on it simply to preserve a treaty that was being broken by an enemy.
Picard : "How can you be so obtuse?"
Maxwell : "What did you call me?!"
Picard: Obtuse. Is it deliberate?
Maxwell: You're forgetting yourself, Son.
@@ilovethetampabaylightning92 Good thing Picard didn't start talking about money, otherwise Maxwell would've thrown him in the brig for a month--with another month to think about it.
Don't you ever mention the Cardassians to me _again,_ you sorry son of a _bitch!_
Not in _THIS_ office,
Not *Anywhere!!*
-slaps nipple-
Get in here! Now!
This writing, direction, delivery *_*
STP could never
“His judgement cometh and that right soon.”
You were right socialcraigster, salvation lay within
I like to think the last thing that went through his mind, other than that phaser, was "How the HELL Captain Picard EVER got the best of him?".
Daniel Cannata that's who I identify bob gunston as, the warden from shawshank
PICAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRDDDDDD!!!!!!
Capt. Maxwell was a fascinating character. Picard calls him one of Starfleet's most respected captain's. It's possible he was one of the candidates to command the Enterprise itself. Yet his soul was broken when he lost his faily(and God knows what his other wartime experiences were). it pushed him over the edge. Yet despite being emotionally disturbed at best, he was able to outmaneuver the Cardassians and was right about their intentions. Brilliant work by Mr. Gunton.
So he did get vindicated
He was most likely a highly decorated combat officer, given his implied and stated roles in the Cardassian war. I think O'Brien claims everything he learned about tactical, he learned from Maxwell.
@@animateddepression without a doubt. Honestly I would have loved to see his character revisited during the Dominion War arc of DS9.
Two powerhouse actors
This remains one of my favorite episodes in the whole series.
Bob Gunton played this part to perfection!!!
The last scene with Picard warning the Kardassians...
"...we'll be watching..."
Chill's everytime!
"...it smells musty in here, like a bureaucrats office!"
classic
Probably one of the best -slams- _compliment or completely unrelated comment_ against Picard in TNG.
@@rafetizer No it's not. Maxwell went rogue and just took it for granted that he had a perfect right to do so on the basis of his suspicions. Picard is on a mission to preserve the peace and he cannot allow one rogue Starfleet captain to start a war on his own initiative. Said rogue also never presented a single scrap of evidence to back any of his contentions and Picard rightly called him out for it. This is how a responsible government acts when the issue of war and peace is at stake. A war might be necessary in the future, but it's not up to some captain playing cowboy to decide that.
@@rafetizer ^ Stupid comment.
@@LordZontar I didn't mean to imply Maxwell had any standing, just that he delivers the line so well it qualifies as one of the best slams.
@@LordZontar Maxwell saved federation of another war so soon. They should make statue of him
The thing is...they're both entirely right.
Maxwell is an experienced captain, and he saw the writing on the wall. Anyone with a sense of strategy could tell that an opponent like the Cardassians would be gearing up their military, waiting for a moment to strike back - especially at such a key location. Even without the gift of hindsight, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that whenever an attack did come, it'd be from there. As such, destroying it now would save Federation lives down the line and remove an advantage, an incentive for the enemy to start a war. Waiting for politicians and bureaucrats can give the enemy an opportunity to guard its resources and stabilize itself pre-emptively, which is a dangerous risk to take with a known threat.
Picard, meanwhile, understands the careful balancing act of diplomacy - understanding and working with the current of politics while maintaining a pragmatic view of what could and likely will happen. A treaty or a ceasefire also saves lives, even if only in the short-term, and while Maxwell was in all likelyhood correct in his assumptions, his 'noble act' would easily give the Cardassians the legitimacy to escalate the conflict and blame it on the entire Federation, dragging entire worlds into a war that most simply aren't ready for. Ironically, Maxwell's desire to save innocent lives from war (if indeed that was his true intention) only accelerated them towards it...and all because he didn't seek any counsel before acting. To say nothing of the innocent lives Maxwell's attack ended, of course.
Ultimately, I do side with Picard on this one. Morally speaking, if Maxwell trusted Picard enough to try and persuade him to his line of thinking, he could've just as easily tried to do so BEFORE pulling this stunt. Or, y'know, at least consulted someone else before going rogue. Maybe it would've changed things, maybe it wouldn't have, but at least that would've marked Maxwell as desperate, maybe paranoid, rather than an impulsive firebrand. Furthermore, it's strategically short-sighted - destroying one supply depot is beneficial, but the cost was nearly inciting a war that the Federation was ill-prepared for and giving the Cardassians carte blanche to retaliate and harry our own endeavors. Instead, he could've taken his information and suspicions and urged the neighboring systems to be on guard, maybe find a discreet means to disrupt the enemy's efforts.
In short, I think Maxwell was 100% correct in his suspicions, but was entirely wrong in his response to the situation. If it was because of what happened with his family, it's certainly a relatable sentiment, but that doesn't make it smart.
I am not a lore expert on Star Trek, but I do have a theory to why Maxwell could not disclose or communicate among his comrades. He is probably being used by Section 31 and the Starfleet Black-ops, to test the resolve and "humanity" remaining in Picard post-assimilation. These briefings and reports would undoubtedly return to their agents among the admiralty. Maxwell would be just a pawn in figuring out
A) Cardassian resistance and technical levels along the border (especially used for scientific or militaristic purposes)
B) Effectiveness of Starfleet technologies against those levels. and
C) How Captain Picard would choose to engage an ally, and his allegiances to Starfleet.
No, maxwell did the right thing, he bought the stupid federation time, the federation should of declared war on the cardassians
No, Maxwell was completely right. The Cardassians were preparing, and the Federation was not. That is an automatic and huge advantage to the Cardassians. That the Federation was ignoring Cardassian preparations made it an emergency level threat. A threat that was only acknowledged and acted upon thanks to Maxwell's actions. If Maxwell had done nothing and followed orders, an invasion that caught the Federation completely off guard would have been the result.
None of this suggests Picard did anything wrong. The Federation has laws and Maxwell violated them. That the violation likely saved millions of lives (ignoring the Dominion War that was unforeseeable at the time) doesn't change the fact it was a violation. Maxwell himself had to know that even if he was proved right, he was falling on the sword for the good of the Federation. Picard recognized everything and did what was necessary to uphold the law, while acknowledging that Maxwell had exposed a threat that needed attention.
Both captains did what was necessary, and both were justified in their actions.
Or the Cardassians were putting on a show in order to provoke a response like this so they wouldn't have to be the ones to break the treaty.
Exactly.
Maxwell was a fool, he let emotions get the better of him. At the worst, it was motivated out of pure revenge, at best, falling for dominion manipulation. This was a dominion victory thanks to him. That station was bait.
Look at it this way, the dominion set up a phony research station that is in truth a military depot. If the federation willfully ignores it, they now have that advantage.
And if someone notices and takes action, they've willfully opened fire on what both sides must recognize as an innocent, civilian target. This makes the federation the aggressor, and the dominion innocent. It invites doubt in federation allies, bolsters pro-dominion support, and gives the dominion a powerful bargaining chip.
He claims he delayed war, as if that one station was all they were waiting for, but it's still in both sides interest to maintain peace, only now the dominion is free to make justified threats. "We'll agree not to go to war, as long as you meet our demands and pull back your starships. How can we possibly trust that you aren't aiming to strike at us in the middle of a ceasefire after that last stunt?" The federation is still going to attempt to maintain Peace, and their bargaining power is weakened, the dominion are now free to maneuver without scrutiny because the Federation is the one at fault, not them.
If Maxwell really wanted to neutralize the threat, he would have made his concerns publicly known, sent warnings, insisted the dominion prove their "innocence". Best case scenario, he catches the dominion red handed, and now the federation is the one with the bargaining power.
But say they manage to hide the evidence: that STILL means that they were forced to disarm the entire station top to bottom, delaying if not removing the threat. And under both conditions, it still brings the vulnerability to light, and susceptible quadrants are able to shore up their defenses accordingly and seal the chink in the armor, rendering the stations strategic advantage useless.
Even from a pragmatic point of view, Maxwell fucked things up hard and played right into the dominions hand.
"They don't know what's going on out here."
-the man who refused to tell them what was going on out there
I think the problems lay with the admiralty who flatly refused to believe that there was anything afoot along the Cardassian border.
Sisko tried desperately to inform Nacheyev of the genuine concerns of Federation colonists occupying those borders only for her to downplay the situation. She seemed to think that the colonists would disarm by simply being reminded that they were Federation citizens and that they should play nice with the Cardassians.
Admirals are supposed to know precisely what’s going on in their sectors, especially if they happen to contain Federation worlds who have concerns about local politics. Nacheyev brushes the colonists fears aside almost out of irritation and annoyance. Even when those issues are verified by two of her officers.
What an amazing performance from Bob Gunton, simply amazing
What I like about this episode is that Picard is sticking to morals and protocol, but he knows full well the other captain is right.
I'm not sure he does, at least at this point. It's actually all the more impressive to imagine him replaying this conversation to himself after the fact and conceding Maxwell's points, whereas in the moment he is completely committed to de-escalation.
@@BoxdHound To say you think it would be "impressive" to imagine that Picard suddenly said to himself "Ooops, the other guy was right", just means you totally missed the point of the entire episode.
The point of the episode was that maintaining peace is hard.
Peace is work. Peace is constant effort. Peace is very, very hard. The only thing harder is war. And the people who want escalate to war as anything but the absolute last resort are fools.
And people who try to start a war because "they know better" than everyone else are authoritarians and criminals. They might have motivations that earns them pity, but it's still criminal.
@Anne Geyer I inadvertently implied Picard wouldn't be overarchingly committed to de-escalation despite any cassus belli. Nevertheless he was still truly listening to Maxwell despite the obvious prejudice, hawkishness, and criminality on display.
@@BoxdHound Exactly. He suspected that Maxwell was right, and was willing to consider action if it was true. Perhaps not Maxwell's proposed action, but still action. Picard didn't dismiss him out of hand, he simply questioned him on his evidence. Maxwell dodged all of Picard's questions in this video because he knew his evidence wasn't sufficient. Picard knew it'd be immoral to take such serious actions unless you're certain about your accusations, and Maxwell didn't care.
I hope Picard thought about this when he was debating 4 or 5 lights!
You know a show is good if people are still debating a single scene decades later.
4th season was a gem man. This episode, First Contact, Devil's Due, Mind's Eye, Redemption, Nth Degree to name just a few. It was magnificent.
Data's Day as well
Maxwell was right but he should have reported to Starfleet Command not taken it into his own hands.
+Jason987262 He was right, I always like the look on Gul Mercet face when Picard confronted him about it.. Maxwell shouldn't have taken matters in his own hands by doing so placed Picard in a dangerous position in possibly starting a war..
+Jason987262 Maybe George Bush Jr should have been prez. lol He would have acted. The funny part is this is part of an arch that would lead to DS9.
TheStarTrekApologist Channel What arc is that? Refresh my memory.
They are talking about the lead up to Chain of Command where Cardassians try to take back some system lost in the war, but end up having to give up some systems including Bajor. This leads to the taking of DS9 for federation use.
HE wasn't right at all.
He had proof, but his actions are dangerous and of a crazy men who overstep his autority.
He had some proof but his actions was of a criminal.
The last few minutes of this episode are the best. When Picard tells Gul Macet "We will be watching"
But the real question is where is Andy Dufresne?
That last bit about towing the ship back at the end gives me chills every time.
8 years later and the Dominion war starts because Gul Dukat needs them as allies to fight off the Klingons and the Maquis who have invaded Cardassian territory. The Klingons invaded after the Cardassians were reeling from political turmoil after Central Command, and the Obsidian Order, collapsed after years of aggressive and oppression. And the Maquis only came about because the Cardassians were arming their own colonies in the Demilitarized Zone in typical aggressive militaristic fashion.
Perhaps Maxwell was right with the luxury of time.
His only interest was revenge.
Agreed but his suspicions were accurate
He may have in fact started this whole debacle. He should have used the chain of command like Kyra did with the Romulans.
I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet released him during the dominion war. They were desperate enough to give the Maquis amnesty. A cardassian-hating captain? That's pretty much every captain at the time.
Right perhaps in his SUSPICIONS, not in his ACTIONS. Picard even says point-blank that he believes Maxwell is right on the former, he just completely disagrees that it justifies what he's done.
"When it has become clear what the Cardassians have done. I will be vindicated"
The funny thing? The Dominion war did occur (albeit for unrelated reasons to what Maxwell was paranoid about) and the Cardassians obliterated Millions of Federation personnel and citizens.
Looking back you could argue that he was right all along, a visionary who attempted to prevent atrocities. I kinda wish they featured Captain Maxwell in a episode of DS9 and explored this, but alas.
TheBackStabbedSniper You think they could have done well with that?
Or Captain Jeriko as well?
I kinda wish we would have had that as well, mostly because I think The Sisco would sympathize and still insist that Picard was right, that Maxwell made the wrong call. If Maxwell had seized a shipment to show that the facility was for military use, that Sisco would support, but what Maxwell actually did? Sisco wouldn't approve. I don't think he would see that as necessary. And remember, this is the man who poisoned an entire planet to halt a terrorist, then lied, cheated and used the crimes of men to cover up the crimes of other men.
Hindsight is a bitch. If you act so velociously, without any based rational or logic then you are ultimately wrong.
You cannot just condemn a people on suspicion or because of their history, that equates to nothing more than a witch trial; giving into paranoia which breeds oppression and hatred. This was something Picard understood and it was one of which the core tenants that made the character the next step in human evolution.
Cardassia went through at least two or three changes in government and a couple of wars before the Dominion War. That had absolutely nothing to do with Maxwell’s suspicions. And, even if it did, he’s only a captain. He doesn’t have the power to declare war.
he was not vindicated at all. No one argued that the intel was wrong. He fucked up by acting on his own as if it was a critical emergency and not telling starfleet about the information until later. The cardassians got to realize starfleet had intel BEFORE STARFLEET EVEN GOT THE INTEL.
This only enabled the cardassians to become more secretive and directly lead to the situation in DS9 with them. Had he just reported the intel, starfleet would have had a huge advantage against them without them finding out.
This was like radio-ing ww2 germany to tell them "Hey we broke your codes lol!"
If this was Discovery, Maxwell would’ve organized a reckless covert attack, discovered the military nature of the station and destroyed it, and been hailed as a totally cool hero by both the show and a tongue-tied admiralty sitting there annoyed that the Federations’ ideals were violated but forced to accept that believing in them makes them the chumps of the show who always get in the hero’s way.
Haha. Beautifully said. How society's concept of proper conduct has radicalized indeed.
Spoken like someone who hasn't actually watched it. People pulling that crap in DSC get tossed in the brig. A lot. And this was during Peacetime. DSC's entire first season is during Wartime.
"You know what it's like to be under fire."
"You wheren't under fire."
"Lives where at stake."
"Who's lives?"
"We had to act now!"
"Why?"
"Smells musty in here, like a bureaucratic office."
Typical fear mongering behavior, never answering a single question, and when called out on the fact he has no answers, no justification, he claims the other side to basically be useless and/or cowardly.
I appetite you didnt cll out either side u just said fear mongers and your right its up to logical thinkers on both to keep them at bay
@@matthewjones2095 I didn't call out either side, because it's Not limited to just them. There are tons of sides that do this and very rarely is any 1 group completely free of people who do this kind of bullshit.
Given Starfleet's track record prior to the Dominion War, he wasn't wrong.
@@redpillfreedom6692 But he wasn't right. His methods where brutal his debating was full of holes and being right in hindsight does not justify his behavior.
@@KenshiImmortalWolf
His behavior was wrong but his instincts were spot on.
The problem with the Federation is that they operate under the assumption that being peaceful in and of itself will protect them from harm.
That's why they explore space with the arrogance that Q spoke of and are completely unprepared when armed conflict arises. Whether it is the Dominion or the Borg.
Yes, Picard was wrong in the long run, but Maxwell had no right or reason to attack the Cardassians. It wasn't about thinking the Cardassians were or weren't arming, it was about not starting a war. Picard literally says that later in the episode.
Picard a few times made decisions like this before , the Pegasus with the cloaking device , he made Westley Crusher snitch out his squadron . Sometimes he thinks his bald head don't shine but it does . LOL
+Dan Reese lol exactly. Picard has broken the rules himself many times and has always relied on the phillosophy that 'following orders' and 'doing what is right' are not always the same thing. I like Picard but he was hypocritical and wrong here, wrong about the war, wrong about Maxwell, and wrong about what was right.
+Dan Reese lol exactly. Picard has broken the rules himself many times and has always relied on the phillosophy that 'following orders' and 'doing what is right' are not always the same thing. I like Picard but he was hypocritical and wrong here, wrong about the war, wrong about Maxwell, and wrong about what was right.
Maxwell was wrong, simply because to make a pre-emptive strike on behalf of the federation was not a decision within his authority to decide that strategy on behalf of the federation, and definitely not to kill 700. This would be like a unit commander deciding Korea is preparing for war and preemptively launching missiles without any permission from the higher-ups to engage.
+VisualiseTheFun I disagree. Breaking rules is one thing. Murdering people is another. If all Maxwell had done was break rules involving subterfuge or spying or technological trickery, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Even though the Cardassians are proven to be lying in the end, that can never justify murder. The ends NEVER, EVER justify the means. Justification is merely a way of lying to yourself, that what you are doing, even though you KNOW it is wrong, is okay. Wrong is wrong, even when done for the right reasons. And once you break a rule like that, you can never go back. Murdering someone the first time is difficult. Once you've done it, it gets easier every time, because you've already dirtied your hands.
It's the primary reason given why Batman won't kill the Joker. Because once he does, he will not stop killing ANY criminal that crosses his path. The first life he takes ends what he is, forever.
Maxwell went from being a decorated officer to a murderer. It doesn't matter whether or not the Cardassians were lying.
Damn, Warden Norton acting on his own accord again.
Great writing, great acting. No amount of CGI or lense flares can replace this. No meta references to the fourth wall, no cheeky one liners. It's refreshing.
This is how the scene would convert on the Picard show:
Maxwell: I don't believe it. I'm meeting the greatest Fuckin captain in the entire Federation. Picard! My man!
Picard: Holy shit cut the crap and get down on your knees, boy! Wait, how about some intravenous injections of Earl Grey before we begin?
Maxwell: Picard! My son is suffering so I had to... go fuck off Picard. FUCK OFF!
INDEED! This was before Trek turned into a bunch of Fast and the Furious-style shit. I miss real Trek.
Possibly the greatest demonstration of acting ability and depth of writing and expression I have ever seen in 50 years of star trek, the guys on DS9 used that prison as if it were a stage:
th-cam.com/video/rVHR0UPHERQ/w-d-xo.html
At no point is CGI or what have you 'replacing' the acting. What an idiotic statement.
And oh yeah, speaking of glass houses, Star Trek The Motion Picture. Literally all special effects at the cost of the script. It's nothing new even if your statement wasn't completely baseless and ill-considered.
Bob Gunton always plays such a fantastic bad guy :D
And he can belt out a tune like no one's business.
Agreed on both counts. But I MUST ask...is he a bad guy in this episode? Hmmm.
Pick'n'Roll82 Well, yeah he's a bad guy here but does get to play the good guy every now and then. He is adept at both.
Vic Morrow Chick There is no doubt he may be misguided in this episode, but is he wholly "bad"? Cardassians were arming for WAR after all.
Pick'n'Roll82 I have never watched an episode of this show other than this one so I have no idea.
Only Picard can argue with Norton the Warden; I see he was "obtuse" here as well with his plans haha. Damn solid character acting work from this guy.
Production, "We need someone obtuse"
Casting, "Got you covered"
"...I like to think that the last thing to go through Maxwell's head, other than that court-martial, was to wonder how the hell The Cardassian Union ever got the best of him."
as a audience member who has seen Deep Space 9, it would be easy to disagree with picard here. the thing is that picard can't see into the future so given all that he knows in this moment, what he is saying is logical
***** its a fine line to be skeptical and then to cross that line and violate others with no evidence..... REMEMBER THISSS
Xan Beerboy
well, this is the season after the Borg invasion so the federation probably can't afford to go to war right now
+slashandbones13 Good thought.
However, the Federation does not provoke a war. Neither do the Romulans.
In DS9, it was the Dominion that made war, the Cardassians joined in, then later realised they were being used.
***** if the federation would have/could of, they didn't have the resources at the time because of Wolf 359, gone to war with Cardassia and had a clear victory, they would not be a major threat at the time of joining the dominion. but like I said, Picard can't see into the future so he had no way of knowing a complete outside force would change the power balance of the alpha quadrant
+slashandbones13 I agree completely.
If it wasn't for the Borg, I doubt the Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans would have built so many ships later and trained for war.
Well, maybe the Klingons, heh heh!
When this episode came out, Maxwell seemed paranoid and crazy.
A few years into DS9 and he didn't seem so crazy after all.
This is not uncommon in history sadly, that being that someone warns of a threat, gets shrugged off as crazy, then turns out to be right a couple decades later.
@@DrewPicklesTheDark the trouble of being too honest
@@DrewPicklesTheDark
When Maxwell was likely restored to Captain and command during the Dominion War, I bet some Admiral owed him an apology.
Picard never said he was wrong for having suspicions, only for acting on them as he did.
After rewatching episode I can only think back to Capt Sisko speech about "Paradise".
"On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarised zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet." -- Cmdr Benjamin Sisko
I affirm my belief in that the Federation Council is incompetent at the least or criminally negligent at the worst. After countless wars they continue to play down to there opponents. The Klingon Empire was on deaths door until the council saw fit to save the Empire instead with the Kitimer Accords instead of crushing the Empire. Unfortunately for the Federation the Empire would wage war again and again against the Federation.
After the humiliating defeat of the Romulans by United Earth Alliance, the Romulans were the ultimate victor by means of the treaty signed. The Alliance agreed to establishing the Neutral Zone and forgo all research & development of cloaking technology whilst the Star Empire only had to pinky swear not to interfere with quadrant politics.
The Cardassians were at best a regional power going against a quadrant superpower. After years of fighting and stalemate a truce was called but repeatedly broken by the Cardassians restarting hostilities. It wasn't until the Jankata Accords that hostilities ended temporarily with the establishment of the demilitarized zone and ceding territory to an inferior foe.
In all three incidents the Federation had the ability to complete defeat there foe or be in a position where they could wage war again without incurring severe casualties. Unfortunately the Federation didn't, the Federation instead chose the moral high ground.
Bob Gunton's acting in this projected warmth and friendship.
I wish they would allow him to do more of that.
This is the equivalent of a US General deciding to start the Iraq War of 2003 on his own.
Episodes like this is why Star Trek is awesome. Will there ever be a show like this again?
probably not due to how the new Trek films gain a audiences so if they produced another TV show I am guessing they would make it appeal to wider audience so it will be about more action less talking
Well see how the picard show turns out atleast.
Of course there will be. Eventually.
But TNG was all about the cast interplay and the acting, not so much the writing. Much like TOS, the ones people remember are a smaller portion of what were actually made... and even the "good" (not "great") episodes would have clunky stuff in there. But the actors would deliver it with sincerity, their body language and interactions with a look . . . a tone, a subtlety? That's what made TNG work for me.
DS9 went all-in on trying to work with making its writing more serialized, more of an ongoing story which was central to everything else. Harder to just "drop into", but more rewarding to stick with despite its own problem episodes.
Voyager wanted to be another TNG but they played it safe, too safe, and the acting didn't . . . pop . . . in the same way. Which is a shame, because there were good people there who just couldn't shine. (Jeri Ryan I saw elsewhere and she was so good, Kate Mulgrew was pretty good in other roles, and fucking Robert Picardo was the saving grace of some of Voyager's worst episodes. Ethan Phillips was criminally screwed over as Neelix.)
Only in your dreams, Cheetara . . . only in your dreams.
Eventually. Perhaps once we overthrow capitalism.
I love that look on Maxwell's face after Picard says 'we're not going after any more Cardassian ships'. He looks like he's empty inside, and has that expression of 'what will I do now' in his eyes. 'Who will I be if I have no enemy?' Perfect acting.
"They're hiding something..."
"HOW BOUT YOU, FUZZY BRITCHES?"
alexhortdog95 Lmfaooooo
“Man up & vanished like a fart in the wind!”
THIS episode is one to watch before Deep Space Nine, and is a pivotal one in the history of the Trek universe. Ensign Ro is another.
Wonderful show! Not just one of the best sci-fi ever made, but some of the best television ever created, in my opinion, of course!
When Trek was about stuff like this. Before the Dark Times of JJ Abrams,
Absolutely!
Oh yes casue we all know Star Trek TMP was amazing, if you could stay awake. Or that Star Trek 5 was a masterpeice. Or how about Generations, or Nemesis. Hell how about the 1st two seasons of this show, or Voyager, or god forbid Enterprise. So yeah if you think JJ saving the series and breathing new life into it is bad then let me ask you who is really the fan. One who respects the old stuff but realizes its flawed and is willing to embrace the new, or the tired fans who blindly defend the worst of Trek simply because they refuse to let go of a model that nearly killed the entire franchise
Star Trek reached a pointed of oversaturation from the mid 90s to 2005. This became obvious with Voyager from the 5th season onwards, Enterprise was beset with recycled stories in the first two seasons and even DS9 stagnated a little in season 6 and season 7. There was simply too much Star Trek on the TV.
If it had only been DS9 broadcast and then when it finished there was a space of a couple of years between DS9 and another series, I think that would have helped.
At least every series, even Enterprise seasons 3 and 4, rolled the dice and tried new things. Sure there misses, but there were far more hits than misses. Towards the latter half of that 1987-2005 period it was burnout, pure and simple.
JJ Trek has not added much to the table. It is visually suburb and only the 2009 film got the balance right. Into Darkness and Beyond were just underwhelming. There's also a lot of pacing problems to so there can't be proper drama or dialogue.
It tries to emulate current Hollywood blockbusters and it is more comic book-like. Problem is Star Trek is another beast entirely.
+skatemetrix I think Trek has lost its soul. I am no fan of Enterprise and I dont follow the older stuff blindly. Even the best of Trek had its misses. More importantly, though, it had a noble goal: to show what humanity could become if it kept making the choice to honor its better impulses. Above all else, Trek is a worthy ideal. Conflict is of course inevitable, along with challenge and uncertainty. However, Abrams doesn't seem to realize that he can still make a good action movie while holding fast to Trek's philosophy. He just doesn't seem to care and I agree with the sentiment that he's done little more than make one more set of generic, instantly forgettable action flicks. Past efforts may not have always hit the bullseye, but at least they were aiming for a true target.
"Saving" ?!
To me JJ posed the grave stone on Star Trek.
Maxwell predicted the reaction to the recent Picard series, “history will look at this man and say this man was a fool”.
Eh, but the producing company was bought by fox and turned from quality to conservative "the future, technology, science and reason are dark dystopian things! woooo spoooooky liberals are baaaaaad" the show is no more legit than the jj abrams bs
He'll accept the judgment of history
Holy crap pap bear makes Maxwell sound reasonable and well adjusted.
it hurts
I loved how deftly they avoided having to show Maxwell’s crew in this episode
Yeah, because it would have *sucked* if they had showed us Maxwell's crew. WTF?! Would have been GREAT to see the tensions arising from the fact that part of his crew supports his action, while the other part doesn't.
OP likely meant because of budgetary concerns, not any narrative reasons.
This is REAL Star Trek, not what Paramount has been pooping out since 2009.
So Star Trek Beyond did not deal with texactly the same theme? What alternative cut have you been watching?
@@christopherg2347 the fact that you compared discovery to this masterpiece just shows that either you just got into trek or you're crazy.
@@tperfect7241 It is said a crazy person never considers being crazy. I did consider it. Yet you think everyone that disagrees with you must be crazy.
@@christopherg2347 no, just in this case, since disagreement seems wholly illogical and completely unfounded given the material.
@@tperfect7241 So you think everyone that disagrees with you on this topic is crazy? And you never even considered it is you that is crazy?
Patrick Steward, as usual, is superb.
I have many favorite episodes in TNG, and this is one of them. The entire episode, everything points out to this man having gone over the edge, becoming a rogue, actually killing mindlessly because he's chasing ghosts. You hear the pains of the Cardassian men, and you eventually see this captain break down. And you feel it's over. Episode over and done with.
And then... the plot twist happens. And seeing as this is one of the earlier (earliest?) interactions with the Cardassians, you dont see it coming. And all of a sudden you realise, YOU were led to believe the entire episode this man was nuts, YOU were led to believe the Cardassians were entirely innocent. And you realise all the hints were there, but this man's crusade just seemed so extreme that you ignored the actual facts.
God this episode was so strong. Truly, I miss a great deal of Star Trek (some episodes more than others)
Incredible episode and writing. Absolutely sublime juxtaposition. Surely Maxwell represents politics of advantage and espionage. In our world, we could certainly be safer having Maxwells in our government and military....yes? Yet, Picard is the philosopher of fairness, patience, and balanced judgement. If we had Picards in our government and military...we would be upholding treaties and be a much safer world because of it. In today's society we have so few, in any culture, east or west, or anywhere between, who possess such wisdom. I look forward to the 24th century!
We're definitely not enlightened enough for an all Picard approach, and all Maxwell would be globally disastrous in this day and age.
So, it's probably best to incorporate a combination of both outlooks for the foreseeable future.
Star Trek, so forward thinking... showing how the human mind and society could evolve, and what it could be capable of. Yet the Shakespearean nature of the human psyche is so quick to come out. A 24th century human, essentially peaceful and logical by nature experiences a crushing loss of mate and child. His vision becomes red, and has the awesome power of a Federation Starship (capable of sterilizing an entire planet) at His disposal. All being driven by the unyielding primitive urge of seeing his enemy's head on pike.
wonderfully put, and I couldn't agree more, 😊👍
***** Technically section 31 was around since before Starfleet... probably even predating the founding of united earth in the form of national intelligence agencies. But canonically, I believe you are correct in that it was first introduced in DS9
+Galileo Galilei I'm sure originally the idea was to counter intelligence threats from the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order. Even if they didn't know either of those two organizations when Section 31 was founded, the history of pre-unification Earth nations would let them know that when encountering nation states comprised of alien races, clandestine threats were inevitable. Even utopia needs to defend itself.
Of course I'm also sure Section 31 has evolved well beyond its original, purely defensive, mandate by the time of DS9.
TheYorkMan
What's your issue? Canon is by nature not linear, that's true in any canon based on serial broadcasts.
BTW I have a personal headcanon that Miles O'brien was a Section 31 operative which meshes with a surprising number of his appearances in TNG and DS9.
Besides tipping off Maxwell that 31 couldn't save him from the hole he'd dug himself, I believe that Miles vetted Bashir for his role in Inter Arma Enim Silent Legis, and was 31's failsafe operative to ensure that Bashir didn't develop a cure to the anti-Founder virus too soon, but also that he DID have one when it was necessariy. Nearly every part of the mindrip he and Bashier pulled off on Sloan was (or could have been) stage-managed by O'Brien, including introducing Bashir to the idea in the first place -- the objective being to give Bashir exactly the cure, and no more.
And how many times did O'Brien get implicated in, or was directly involved in, espionage operations? I think his duel with Garak in Empok Nor was spy vs. spy, the best of the Obsidian Order versus a well trained 31 operative, and we all know not only who won, but who kept his cover. Just my $.02
+Wm. Kyle Crossett Well he was right about it, but he made the mistake to not inform Starfleet. He tried to do it himself and started a war. But without him Starfleet would have not noticed until its too late.
In light of the Dominion War, Captain Maxwell will be remembered kindly remembered.
" I'd like to think that what went through his head other than that bullet was to think how did Andy Dufrane get the better of him."
Here's the thing about people saying Picard was wrong: he never flat-out denied Maxwell's claims about the Cardassians. What he did was to punish Maxwell for a preemptive strike, and he was right to do so. If Maxwell had such crucial information about the Cardassians preparing for war, then what he should have done was to report it to Starfleet so the federation could sort out the situation on their end, not launch an unprovoked attack himself. Frankly, he's lucky he didn't start the war right then and there.
Whether the Cardassians were preparing to attack the Federation or not wasn't the issue. It wasn't why Picard penalized him. The issue was what he did with that information.
Yep, he wanted to be a "cowboy" and make the decision for the entire Federation on whether or not to go to war.
It's like if the Captain of a Navy destroyer today thought a Russian cargo ship was carrying weapons to Syrian rebels, but without contacting anybody else, decided to fire on the ship, and worse, trespass into Russian territorial waters to attack more cargo ships, and the frigates protecting them.
We'd pretty much send everything we had to take down that ship to prevent war with the Russians, and in the process, lose any possibility of truly holding them responsible for what they were supposedly doing.
You can think you're right all you want but you are not alone just because you command a vessel. You're part of a fleet, and a nation.
Agreed. You should never act on intuition without documentation and jut say, "I can smell it."
Except what do we see of federation action after this? Nothing, even though the Cardassians repeatedly break treaty Starfleet does not respond. Hence why the leader of the Marquis was a Starfleet commander. This snowballs into the dominion war. A war far more costly then a fed carddie war now.
I disagree. maxwell was justified, but he shouldn't have tried to persuade Picard. He should've just said "o damn I screwed up. Arrest me." and left it at that, since he already accomplished what he was trying to do
@@paulrasmussen8953 Hindsight is always 100%.
Besides, the Federation clinging to peace is understandable, even if it was wrong. In this case. But then again in Babylon 5 a similar brash captain that started the Earth/Minbari war which nearly wiped out humanity.
Also remember, that Picard resisted the temptation of committing genocide against the Borg, something he got into hot water later. Something Section 31 later did. While it helped stop the war, it better does not come to light, because anyone who has a problem with the Federation may start their attack with bioweapons now. And they don't even need something that affects every member species. Just something that nearly wipes out humanity. That will leave Starfleet's manpower crippled, ships understaffed and vulnerable.
No matter what you decide, you may choose wrong, which has happened often in our own history. Short-term goals resulted in long-term consequences. Even after those that made the mistakes are long dead.
It's the warden from shawshank redemption. He's driving a starship?!
...everyone's fucked now.
"... I'd like to think that the last thing that went through his head, other than that phaser beam, was how the hell Picard ever got the best of him"
Hhhmmm shoooes ah🤷♂️nevermind😏👍
I KNEW I recognized him from somewhere!
How could he be so Obtuse!
"Picard how could you be so OBTUSE?"
"What did you call me?"
“Don’t you ever mention Cardassians to me again you sorry son of a b! Not in this ready room! Not anywhere! Worf get in here! The Brig a month!”
"What's the matter, Captain, am I being too---obtuse?"
Thank you Andy Dufrenes!!!
Ironically, the Cardassians would declare war on the Federation like 8 years later, and his pre-emtive strike probably did save lives
The base was only useful strategically as long as it remained a secret.
Picard letting the Cardassian know he fully believed Maxwell ,did a better job of shutting it down than Maxwell's actions.
It's what Maxwell should have done.
Sent a report to Starfleet and PERSONALLY warned the Cardassian's to stop.
I like how Picard brought up the reason Maxwell's judgement had been impaired
@Jackalofdeath Do you understand that Star Trek is fiction?
(None of it really happened)
His pre-emptive strike did nothing to save lives. It only made the cardassians aware that the federation now knew. hell his actions made them aware starfleet would know BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY GOT TO KNOW because he didnt inform them about it!
It only made the Cardassians act even more secretively and removed any advantage starfleet would ahve had if he had just reported the intel to them. They would have had a full deck of cards to surprise the cardassians with.
@Jackalofdeath Heck, the tactical info was probably relayed by an Obsiddian order agent to begin with, just to test the water to see how Starfleet would react. If there was no action taken, the Order would have validated the Federation is weak and ready for more concessions to be taken. The fact Maxwell took action likely made the Order think there was more too it than they thought and they should back down for now.
@@tenjenk if the only thing the Cardassians respect is might and strength, then it can be argued that taking out their base is what prevented them from declaring war for those 8 years. In any case, the real issue here is the admiral violating established rules of engagement chain of command and existing policy. He could have easily fibbed a bit on a report and gotten the green light from Starfleet Command to take the base down if that is what he needed to do.
Wow, such incredible acting on both their parts.
The best way to break down a person is to ask questions and make them explain their stance. Picard is constantly asking “why” to his statements. The other guy deflects by saying “it smells musty in here”. Cause he knows his actions weren’t justified other than being suspicious and maybe a tad vengeful.
Whether he’s right is not the point. The police act on “suspicions” all the time and our freedoms get encroached on, or even the government during WWII with the American Japanese. TNG really does make you think about things deeply.
"HE UP AND DISAPPEARED LIKE A FART IN THE WIND!"
I love how people can have sociological and philosophical arguments/discussions about fictitious events. This isnt an insult its just something i find interesting.
That's what Star Trek is. :)
Star trekk plots are often based off/inspired from real events in human history
@@Martionize I like the Treks where they chop off the badguy Romoolans heads and do spinny kick flips moves. pewpewpwpwpwpwpwpwepwepwepwepwepw
7 years later, I can still confirm that it's a pleasant thing to do, to discuss about fictitious events. Star Trek used to be THAT thought provoking and entertaining. It used to be a show for intellectual people, not your average beer-googled Joe.
Of course, now we have Picard that only got decent in the 3rd season, and that Discovery thing.
A lot of people didn't watch this episode... Picard comes right out and says that Maxwell was right about the military supplies five minutes later.
That's not the point.
I’m guessing you missed the part where he shouted “that’s irrelevant”. That was directed at you.
@dark zeratul What's your point?
Yeah, right after saying that their breaking of the treaty is irrelevant.
Also worth noting: Picard had the same suspicions that Maxwell had, but didn't appease him at all with that knowledge. There was no "Yeah, I don't think that's a science station either but..." in an effort to talk him down. Hell, those bureaucrats at Starfleet Headquarters probably knew for sure, too, and decided that a fake science station wasn't worth starting another war. But Picard didn't feel the need to explain any of that to Maxwell. Probably because he was just *done* with Maxwell. In the military, you have to take it on faith that an insignia means that you can trust a stranger with important information... and when that trust is betrayed, for any reason, classic Trek had a habit of making their COs really harsh on the person.
Unlike new Trek, which lets people be cowboys as long as it's for the right reasons.
The irony is Maxwell was right and won many important battles in the Dominion war a few years later.
He was right but he didn't fight in the war iirc.
His methods were wrong but his suspicions were correct, which this video didn't show. I think the true lesson here is you must be vigilant and take security seriously, while taking great care in how you go about it.
I think it's kind of odd that Maxwell remained a starship captain after what happened to his family. They should promoted him to Admiral to get him out of the way.
good point
Then again, Picard keeps his command after being tortured, turned into Locutus, forced to relive an entire non-existent lifetime in an alien civilization, and I can't even remember what else. I guess Starfleet assumes the resilience of character that got them into command will hold out until there's evidence of it failing.
boiledelephant You can count on that resilience when the horrible event happens to a starship captain. It's part of what they sign up for and they know it. But when it's your family that takes the hit; that's when someone high up should say "Ben Maxwell is a battle hardened warrior now; not an explorer. He should not be in command of a starship during peacetime."
Although not written as such, this could possibly be seen as a kind of pilot to DS9- all the elements are present and correct- a Starfleet Captain that has his flaws and goes rogue, O'Brien fleshed out more allowing Colm Meaney to really show his skills as an actor and introducing the Cardassians as antagonists. Worth revisiting.
A lesser show would give us an ending in which Picard’s position was unequivocally justified and Maxwell’s unequivocally discredited. What TNG gives us however is that, while Picard is correct that military commanders cannot unilaterally decide to ignore civil authority and begin their own personal campaigns of aggression at those they deem enemies, Maxwell is also not completely wrong in his suspicion. The Cardassians are a military dictatorship with vastly different values around power and security. Maxwell’s approach was unjustified, but his point that the Federation cannot afford to be naive about the Cardassian’s intentions had validity.
More then not being wrong in his suspicions, he is absolutely correct in them. And Picard shares them.
Two men who are both very very right.
+LostMercenary99 It's a right vs. right dilemma. Both men have reasoned their arguments, one is just cautious and the other aggressive.
+LostMercenary99 Picard is correct; the other captain is a war criminal.
That the United States breeds war criminals from Presidents does not make war criminals "right"
Thor: This was an act of war.
Odin: This was an act of a few doomed to fail.
A piece of advice: If your enemies are closer to you, you can fight them. If your enemies are far or too far from you, you can't fight them because you will be wasting too much for one endeavor with authorization or without.
+Merely Correct Captain Maxwell is correct in his assumption of Cardassian goals and intentions. A preemptive attack could potentially expose the Cardassian plot and stop a war. Yet, he provokes a war making them look like aggressors and while potentially essentially murdering unarmed enemies.
Picard sees the correct answer as in preserving the peace and bringing him into justice for breaking chain of command, going rogue, and essentially acting like a renegade pirate while nearly bringing a new war and a political nightmare in politics. Yet, he knows that Maxwell might very well be right, but can't risk the consequences and good conscience to do the same according to his duty.
Out of the two Picard is the one who didn't risk lives and didn't act reckless. In that regard he morally correct and doing his duty and being responsible. Maxwell went back on his obligations despite following morally well intentioned goals and was very irresponsible to the consequences should he be wrong, and is still in the wrong even if he was correct on his suspicions simply because he fired first and killed to the extreme. He could simply of planned out counter measures with like minded captains and gained support for an intelligence mission or be well prepared to destroy any invasion.
The one good thing out of this was that all of this alerted the cardassians to federation suspicions, and Picard made it clear that they would now be ready. It cost the cardassians the military goal they had, but the federation lost credibility and brave captain.
+V Guyver I agree completely.
This was some of the best writing in the series.