Dan just speaking facts that we can understand automatically wins this debate. 3 minutes into the other guys speech he is all over the place with charts, talking fast, and jumping around from point to point with zero proof. He's a perfect Christian.
It takes imagination to propose a debate can be had with one who thinks travel is best done with one foot in fantasyland. In the XII century significant events take place, as described in the Gospels: the coming of Jesus Christ, his life and crucifixion, although the existing text of the Gospels was edited and most likely dates to the XIV-XV cc. In the mid XII century, in the year 1152, Jesus Christ is born. In secular Byzantine history he is known as Emperor Andronicus and St. Andrew the Apostle the First-Called in Russian history he was portrayed as the Great Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky. To be more specific, Andrey Bogolyubsky is a chronicler counterpart of Andronicus-Christ during his stay in Vladimir-Suzdal Rus’ of the XII century, where he spent most of his life. In fact, the Star of Bethlehem blazed in the middle of the XII century. This gives us an absolute astronomical dating of Christ’s Life. [ЦРС], ch.1. ‘Star of Bethlehem’ - is an explosion of a supernova, which at present is incorrectly dated to the middle of the XI century. The present-day Crab Nebula in the Taurus Constellation is the remnant of this explosion. Enigmatic timber scarcity in Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages as first recognized by dender-pioneer Ernest Hollstein (1918-1988) "No sites exist anywhere with uninterrupted timber specimen from about 1000 CE backwards to Imperial Antiquity(1st-3rd c.). which is why the dendro-chronologies for Ancient Rome and, thereby the entire first millennium are in disarray. Since the very existence of the chronology periods without wood samples was never doubted by the researchers, nobody started to question our textbook chronology. Instead, out of stratigraphic context, scholars searched for wood samples in wells or moors to fill the irritating gaps. In addition, identical reign sequences were used twice in a row to gamer more years. Therefor, "all dendrochronological datings done on West Roman time wood is wrong by some unknown number of years"(") th-cam.com/video/c876lPZ-UZU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PlanetAmnesia
I totally agree, apologists overload the audience with so many claims that the audience get overwhelmed and only realize later that it was all talk no substance. He also fits the bill as an apologist because he has not converted anybody to his cult, though he thinks he has… Dan is playing theological chess with a pigeon
Coincidentally the Simpsons are prophetic in the same sense that Daniel was prophetic. The events had already taken place when the prophecies were made
Let’s all just think about it for a minute. If any of the characters from the Bible were around today telling their stories wouldn’t they all be labeled schizophrenic and most likely locked up? I’m sure as hell I’d be locked up if I tried saying God told me to sacrifice my son.
@@captaingraybeard sure, reluctantly, but he knew God could raise his son from the dead. The Lord never intended to carry out a human sacrifice. Ask yourself, what has atheism achieved globally? Dreadful massacres in Russia, China, Korea Cambodia, etc,etc,etc. One third of the population of Cambodia slaughtered without mercy
@@JC57515 the Jews, Muslims and Christians have all been killing each other for centuries. All in the name of the same exact god. How’s that any better?
The fact of the matter is it’s human nature for the strong to dominate the weak. So if we’re all “created in his image” what’s that really say about god?
I don’t know why I used to take this second guy’s opener as proof of anything. I did, though. It’s a jail of the mind. You want to know who saved ME? When the Internet was new and I was searching for Truth, Dan Barker himself was kind enough to enter into an email exchange with me. He answered all my questions, recommended books and barely-there websites, and was endlessly patient with me. Thank you, Dan! Since then, I’ve left the church, 2 years later my husband followed, our 6 children grew up as unbelievers, and they’ve established unbelieving households for my grandchildren.
@@antoniochavez508 Fact is some were not believers in the first place so its very easy to stop believing in something you never did. I cant see into the mind of people so what they believe I dont know, but I have heard many people who attend church say they only attend for the social life.
And so what-no you've embraced a literally mindless and unscientific worldview where you have no rational basis for logic or even your own "moral" views, where none of the most fundamental questions of human existence (origins, meaning, morality, ultimate destiny) receive any meaningful answers? Why is that?
@David Burrey I can help with that. Firstly, The Old Testament is framed on the template of the hero’s journey. It’s as viable as Jason and the Argonauts. Just a different genre of story telling. The fact that Genesis was written for their people at that time and matched their life is kind of a "duh" moment. In the original creation story, The Babylonian, Enuma Elish, they talk about building Babylon and zigarats. Archeology shows those are real. So by default, the Enuma Elish is real? Greek myth sails from real places. So real stories? We don't need anyone to show us this. We can see it for ourselves. You just chose to place one in a different category for person reasons. Gods existence has yet to be demonstrated. Even remotely.
Imagine for a moment that I released a book in 2010 that I supposedly wrote all the way back in 1995 and I claim that it contains dozens of prophetic revelations. So you're reading through the book and you notice that the prophecies about the years 1996, 97, and 98 are mostly accurate but they are fuzzy in a few places and contain some information that was thought to be true even just a few years ago, but we have since discovered it's not accurate. You find that kind of interesting so you keep reading. You notice that the closer you get to the 2010 release date of the book, the more accurate and specific the prophecies become. The housing market crash in 08 is described in detail, including names of important people at the time, important dates and places, with very very few errors. "Wow" you think. "Amazing!" You keep reading.. but suddenly all the prophecies about events occurring after 2010 are entirely unspecific. They are so vague they could be interpreted to mean any number of things. Gone are the dates, the names of people and places and their effect on history. The language is ambiguous and poetic. No longer do we see "predictions" like "Barack Obama shall be elected president on the promise of healthcare reform". Instead we see flowery language like "and the 3 great waves of the sea shall terrify the people and pillars of smoke and ash shall rise from lands to the east and west" The only people who wouldn't see through the sharade are those who desperately wanted to believe I was a prophet. Everyone else would correctly surmise that I didn't write the book in 1990, I wrote it in 2010. My memory was a little fuzzy on events that took place 20 years earlier but I got the gist of it right. Events that had just taken place prior to 2010 were fresh in my memory, so details were clear and accurate. But since I have no prophetic abilities, I had to resort to vague, ambiguous predictions with no specific timelines for everything after 2010. And that folks, is the book of Daniel.
2010 was an interesting year ... a blood moon eclipse and full moon (lunar Sabbath). What also happened 2010? Vatican told the world is has been appointing ALL Mr Presidents since George Wershington. And what did We the PERSONS do? THEY F'ING VOTED ... AGAIN AND AGAIN and about to 2024! The ONLY correct definition for "insanity" is We the PERSONS aka American voters voting over and over and (bend) over expecting results different than wars and debt, debt and wars, wars and debt. And We the PERSONS could careless who the lender is, the terms and conditions and the FACT We the PERSONS and the other brain dead the "Patriots"! Well PERSONS and Patriots ... it''s time to pay the freight! Pay up your fair share or you will be WWIII shot! mRNA ought to clear up much of the debt! Along with the heavily brain damaged WE the PERSONS and Patriots are, perhaps, the MOST dangerous International Terrorists known to man: the "Christians" who actually believe JeZEUS abolished the Law handed to Charlton Heston on mount Sinai ... They go on by claiming JeZEUS is their LORD... well, Saturn is Satans planet. Satan is the LORD of the Rings of Saturn. Satan sent it's only begotten SUN; JeZEUS, to fix the imperfections of God! 1, 2, 3 ... We the PERSONS, Patriots and Christians ...pffft ... gone!
@@josephshepherd60 wrong. You just don’t understand spiritual metaphor. And all spiritual lessons must be taught in metaphors to break your mind out of dualistic thinking
I do love how, in the rebuttal portion, he goes "See, this other part of the book has this name in it." Which only really establishes that that book is referring to A Daniel. I personally knew three at one point in my life. So, I guess they were all the author of the book too.
We should not concern ourselves with a fictitious God of vile temperament, and voracious appetite for violence, but we ought to fear those who endeavor to follow him, march to his drums, and obey his commands.
@@MrDOB1000: Perhaps Yahweh and Satan are one and the same. King David said Yahweh told him to count his fighting men, then in another book, David said it was Satan who had inspired him (Kings and Chronicles). Who knows and who cares. Evil is evil and wicked is wicked. It doesn't matter if evil is done by god or wickedness is done by the devil. What matters is that it was done at all.
Jesus said that, simply by asking, we can know Him. Christ is a spirit and those who worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. You were never a Christian you never knew the Lord. Jesus died on a Cross so that we may know Him! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@JC57515 Yeah so coming to "god" saves his people from being "haunted"(whatever tf that is),being robbed,being murdered,and experiencing "hell"?! Whatever helps you get through life,right?
@@lorenzolucifuge1653 thanks Lorenzo, being haunted is a visitation by a Spirit something never forgotten, and very rare and horrible. The name of Jesus is my protection, and its protection has certainly saved me, thank God.
I love how believers resort to slide shows about the bible in order to prove god’s existence instead of just asking “hey god, can you help me out here?”
Exactly.. I Always thought abt this.. GOD Doesn't practically Do anything !!in anyone's lives.. Nor does he care to reveal himself when people really just want to see him.. lol
@@spacetofu19 I'm not being rude, but you literally don't know what you're talking about. As I said elsewhere, when you see a demon, you'll believe instantly.
Daniel 11 sounds more like a summary of the Game of Thrones than a prediction of the future. Of course, Daniel 11 was written around 164 BCE so it isn't all that amazing that it "predicts" events that happened well before it was written.
I took the time to read the Old Testament when I was 18 and all the things Richard Dawkins says about it are true. It describes a God who is unbelievably horrific.
Actually, if you begin with the premise that just one act of wickedness: one lie, one theft, one disrespectful word towards God is enough to warrant eternal condemnation, then the Old Testament is awe-inspiring in its love, kindness, and mercy. Yet, is it reasonable that just one sin is enough to eternally condemn someone? The fact of the matter is that heaven is a place of moral perfection. No one will lie to you or steal from you there. That is, if you have lied or stolen, you would simply pollute heaven. If people like you and I were allowed there, how long before 'heaven' looked like South Central LA? We all deserve hell. Therefore, God's judgements in the OT are full of compassion, though they seem very harsh. For example, let's take a Bible skeptic from 100 years ago who complained about Noah's flood. Unless they made things right with God, they are in hell right now - with those same people God judged. What were they like? It is written that their thoughts were only 'violence continually.' Does that sound like a fun way to spend forever? Moreover, God won't destroy those people in a flood; they will live on and on; are you happy now? God will not kill anyone in hell. However, if you wind up in hell, it is violence continually!' That is who they are! Jesus said that if you go to hell, you will be tortured by the 'torturers.' Now, angels are not in hell, so who are these 'torturers'? Thank God, I will never know. Will you? I hope that I have 'scared the hell out of you.' You cannot say that I did not warn you. To libel God publicly rather than to humbly ask questions is a terrible crime! Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. The blood of Christ makes us fit for heaven. I hope that you will look to Jesus. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@daylesuess552 oops, I accidently typed my answer to your question in a post below. Oh well, here it is: Jesus said that, simply by asking, we can know Him. Christ is a spirit and those who worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. Jesus died on a Cross so that we may know Him! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
I tried so hard to make any sense of what the Christian guy was trying to say. Unfortunately, it sounded like a torrent of word salad. Dan makes a much more coherent and logical argument.
Dan Barker: uses Science, Archeology, Logic and sound reasoning to show how the Bible is most likely myth and fiction. Christian: uses the Bible to prove the Bible is fact. Christianity in a nutshell. Dan Barker is one of my favorites to do these debates. Him and Hitch, who is sorely missed.
True , many Christians do indeed use the Bible to prove the Bible is fact ; the circular fallacy . No worse a non sequitur than that of atheists who posit nature itself as the cause of itself !
Here we go: Yahweh is a Hebrew tribal male god who always existed and knows all things. He creates a male human out of dirt and a female human from the man's rib. He assigns them free will and runs a test to see if they will disobey him, knowing that they will. When they disobey him as he knew they would, he curses them and remains angry with them and their descendants for thousands of years. Finally he relents by having a son by a virgin which he sacrifices over a weekend to remove the curse. Later he rejoins himself in his heavenly kingdom - which is within you, according to his son. Pure rubbish.
Free will by nature gives you the option to be disobedient. If you want to see how God's mercy and wrath is portrayed read Hosea it only takes about 30 minutes. Also your last state about Gods reunion inside us isn't theologically correct. We're referred to as temples replacing the brick and mortar temples, not his kingdom.
Well - at least what you wrote is pure rubbish. Yahweh is not a male human. He began in infinity from the eternal laws of reality, and for that reason He is all knowing and accomplishes all things. He made Man out of dust - what else is He going to use to create animals? He has only been angry with people because they keep rebelling and doing evil. The curse came on Adam and Eve at the beginning because they disconnected from the spirit of the Lord. It wasn't due to any action from the Lord. Yes, through Jesus the Christ the curse has been removed, IF you repent and receive Him as Savior. The Holy Spirit is then given to reconnect your soul, and at the Second Coming your body is reconnected and becomes eternal again. You have no understanding of spiritual things right now. You need to contact a local church, preferably Baptist.
It took me until I was 29 to finally break my yoke with Belief. I finally embrace Knowledge, not Belief. Philosophy and The Sciences was my key to Freedom from Faith.
It’s a typical position from all those that wanna escape moral responsibilities in this world… There’s good and evil we all know that…there’s truth and lies we’ve all met liars. The philosophers died horrible deaths and knowledge is just information…by the way information doesn’t evolve, matter doesn’t give rise to coded information, things deteriorate in a closed system (2nd law of thermodynamics). Maybe you should examine your beliefs a little deeper.
As we Cristians do not know the Philosophy and Science... How much you are stupid western Godless and Souless idiot... 🤣🤣🤣 But Jesus knees there were people who would not believe in him, he called them Vipers, that why he said the did not come to bring the Peace but the Sword, that what he meant... Thank you to prove him right You godless and Souless western idiot. 🙂
@@ahmesceanga6382 As we Cristians do not know the Philosophy and Science... How much you are stupid western Godless and Souless idiot... 🤣🤣🤣 But Jesus knees there were people who would not believe in him, he called them Vipers, that why he said the did not come to bring the Peace but the Sword, that what he meant... Thank you to prove him right You godless and Souless western idiot. 🙂
Gotta love how he describes the prohecies in Daniel as clear, specific and concise after having to explain in painful detail how the prophecies line up with reality with winding, complex interpretation and mental gymnastics.
I'm loving how he grounds his entire argument in a book that is almost universally agreed to have been written in the 2nd century BCE, after all of the allegedly prophesied events have already happened, and attributed to a figure, Daniel, who is almost universally agreed to have never actually existed.
I love how a western Godless and Souless idiot come up with a new theory everyday just to attract others godless and Souless western idiots that live in Wealth societies and so lost their faith in God and so they Soul... 🙂
@@gregmark1688 I love how a western Godless and Souless idiot come up with a new theory everyday just to attract others godless and Souless western idiots that live in Wealth societies and so lost their faith in God and so they Soul... 🙂
As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
@@homophilosofikus8215 As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
When dealing with a Bible literalist who declares that the Bible is 100% accurate and inerrant, you know you're not dealing with someone who is intellectually honest.
It is amazing how deep belief can be. My belief was powerful before I applied logic to my worldview. Most religious people are "honest"... they believe it. They are just wrong.
It's amazing how powerful brainwashing and indoctrination is. When people you love more than anyone else in the world teach you that something is true, from birth, it is nearly impossible to shake that, even in the face of clear evidence impeaching it.....
@@leoaguinaldo65 You speaking for this Jewish imaginary supernatural been who never existed and supertious claims that never happened evil genocidal racist maniac from the zionist bible. Imaginary been never ever speak for itself but only speak to people in there heads always in there's heads.
It's been a while since I thought of 'the salt woman' ....aka Lot's wife.. When i was little, i thought she turned into the Dead Sea .. She was a primary example I held as a Christian to 'not look back'... I never felt compassion for her, not once. Now I do. She was only human. Like me.
Yes, that old testament deity is pretty scary. Its also pretty scary that the religion I grew up in taught that same message hook, line and sinker. But I was pretty discerning even as a kid. End of the religion thing.
Why wouldn't common sense dictate that the thing was fiction? All the stories were mean, and the whole system with a god panting for blood to get paid back for his creatures naughtiness.
I have been studying the writings of free rational thinkers all my life. I became an Atheist in around 1960. I have studied the works of the Enlightenment, and the Encyclopedists, as well as all modern Atheist publishers. In my opinion, nobody articulates the evil, that is religion, better than Dan barker. And, as we all know, there is no religion more evil than that as described in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic "Holy Books".
@@hisvorpalsword Dan Barker evangelized before the debate and insulted something that doesn't exist according to him, calling it various names. He let everyone know that he took great issue with a non existent entity.
a random kyle...the Old Testament is Dogma but JEWISH Dogma along with The Talmud !!! The Old Testament was written by jewish scribes for jewish people. Now, if are you referring to The New Testament that's a different subject. If you don't know the difference between the two is because you're lost about judeo-christian religion.
Dan Barker is an excellent resource following the sad demise of Christopher Hitchens. While I fully endorse Barker I have spent the last 40+years understanding the purpose of religious faith for people. We need to consider compassionately this action/choice of believers of religion . Only then can we relate with those who live their lives by the standards of these religious myths.
Agreed! I am a former Christian, but it's not as if I see Christianity as 100% flawed. For all the theological nonsense, church life itself can provide all kinds of benefits for people. Nothing wrong with that at all.
The very fact that educated, intellectual adults today are still discussing the question of WHETHER the Old Testament is fictional or not is extremely strange to me and also has something grotesque about it!
The way the Christian guy argues screams insecurity, and he would be absolutely crushed by someone like Prof. Francesca Stavrakopoulou, an expert on the Bible and who argues that the Bible is mainly not historical at all. The Chrustian guy just seems to waffle off a load a useless information which can be explained away in other ways. Dan Barker puts up much more of a convincing argument here.
The default position of ancient stories, or even current ones, is that it is fiction. The fact that some references in literature are verifible such as settings, dating, and people make such works historical fiction, with the emphasis on "fiction."
It's wonderful hearing Dan Barker calmly bringing rationality to those who propose Christian nonsense in their buy-bull. Hearing Tom preach in his tone-deaf manner that never addresses Dan's points is... well... just plain sad...
The sin argument is an interesting one. Christian apologists claim that Adam and Eve were created perfect but they had freewill - hence why they sinned. The problem with this claim is that if they were created perfect then they should have always made perfect decisions. Imperfection does not give birth to perfection. That goes against the rules of logic. PERFECTION BEGATS PERFECTION. IMPERFECTION BEGATS IMPERFECTION. Logic always wins. Therefore, the Christian apologists claim is completely wrong from a logical standpoint - of course, that is if we are using the same logical parameters to assess this topic in the same way we would assess everything else in life. Of course, the Eden story is entirely mythological - but Christian apologists interpret the story literally - thats the problem. You see foks, All the geographical locations in the bible are actually real - so are the various people groups mentioned in the bible. But all the stories are entire mythological and consist of allegory and metaphor. In fact, all the worlds organised religions are actually the same in this manner. Ancient Humans were simply trying to understand the world around them and their greater purpose - so they wrote what they SURMISED was Gods nature and mixed in their own folklore tales with it. They then put these ALLEGORICAL hybrid tales into books and the resulting end products are what you would call the so called "holy books" from the various people groups around the world. There is nothing surprising about this. Thats just human beings behaving like human beings. Throughout the thousands of years people groups from around the world have done this. The trick is to make the various resulting religions work for YOU. Rather than YOU working for these religions. Hell was not taught as a lake of fire in the Old Testament. The greek idea of hell in the New Testament is very easy to explain. Let us first examine the Jews. The orthodox Jews claim that both Christianity and Islam are actually BASTARDISATIONS of orthodox Judaism. The orthodox Jews do not believe in hell as a place of eternal torture by fire. That would explain why greek ideas of hell have been put in Jesus's mouth by the greek writers of the New Testament. Especially, considering that in order for any person to learn greek 2000 years ago the only greek writings actually available to actually PRACTICE learning the greek language were greek mythological epics which documented precisely greek ideas of hell. For example, Hades and Tartarus are terms for hell copied straight from the greek mythological epics which contained these concepts and ideas. People simply learnt these Greek epics as a way of practicing reading and writing greek as the main greek writings were all mythological works. The New Testament writers then copied these greek ideas of hell into the greek New Testament they were writing. The New Testament is a fusion of Judaism and Greek mythology. Hellinistic Judaism is well documented by Orthodox Jews themselves. It was eventually suppressed - but It re-emerged as New Testament Christianity in 325ad. The difference is that this time it was backed by the state of Rome in what became known as Roman Catholicism. ALL, the various protestant denominations copied these doctrines as they branched off from Roman Catholicism. They left out other doctrines and took the main doctrines into their new Protestant version of Christianity.
you wanna know what I think; it wasn`t god, who laid down the foundations for the whole sin business, it was a gathering of Jewish mothers ,and they are the culprits we ought to blame them for all the misery of us all.
@@frankiewally1891 Be careful not to say that to their face Frankie. They control everything in the world and they may have you killed. I like your courage and honesty though.
@@shaunigothictv1003 Shauni ,let`s not fall into a paranoia; I know the cabal of "heaven" inspired idiots is a danger to the world`s peace, but we must not surrender to the deluded terrorists of any ilk. Life indeed is beautiful and we have a duty to keep it so, despite the relentless attacks of "faithful sheep".
Poor Tom, slow down and think about your evidence, the slides and stories are not evidence...Every time you look down after your speech show your timidity, the faster you talk and the angrier you become doesn’t prove anything other than you lack of confidence or your information....Thank you Dan...
Dan Barker has an excellent command of the American English language. In this New Information Age, with instant global data sharing, we need good communicators, like Dan Barker, more than ever!
As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
@@stevehorn1471 my shame is I was invited to a real satanic sect , I was an atheist, for my it was a just role playing , maybe some sexual thing in the beginning, before I join I wanted to be sure what I was doing , so got many old books about esoteric doctrines , ancients religion , what you could call physics phenomena, etc the lost is not complete . In the beginning nothing seem to happen , the truth is demonic entity are real , think about them as life form that precede human being , the ufo phenomena the ones that are not a fake , is caused by the intersection of this entity in our reality Depending the historical moment , the populous have different interpretations, the truth is keep only for the elites , yes even the very scientists who create the theories that discredit religion are part of it , in public they can pretend to be atheist, agnostic, other religion , free thinker or even Christian , yes is complete model of dominion , the only reason I found out is is my stupid obsession with finding secrets . The cost of trying to learn the truth is a paradox , for you to have real evidence, you need to learn how he very thing that destroy you , yes to learn the truth at this level is almost certain your soul will be condemn to hell , the very think no human should ever do . Imagine my terror when paranormal phenomena manifest, to live knowing this is the most depressing thing you can know , your life change , you almost breadth fear every day of your life and the real end can be so terrible you would almost anything to avoid it he end . If you think this a joke let me warn you , some people like me turn against them , most never love to say the truth and even less ever hear them , this is your best chance ever to to know the truth. Tell me what do you need to know .
I’m in this weird middle ground of not really knowing what I believe but Dan Barker is a fresh of breath air. He’s not a cocky atheists like most of who I see, but someone, who like me, was deep into Christianity and recognizes the right tone to speak from when talking to people. He seems like he kept the good qualities, like being soft spoken and quick to listen but slow to speak.
You are in a good place with no need to go one way or the other. Claiming to know the unknowable one way or the other seemed wild to me once I came to be comfortable with the fact that maybe I don’t know the details of the origins of the universe. Be positive, love everyone and claim ignorance; what could go wrong?
He did keep the good qualities- incredibly ignorant about the Bible, extremely insulting to something that doesn't exist according to him, and pathologically fixated on this non existent entity.
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
@@robinrobyn1714 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
Bart Erhman had a similar history, he became a born again Evangelical Christian before going to college where he was introduced to the "problems" of the Bible (translation errors, historical errors, evidence of editing, etc. btw, most Bible scholars have known about these for 100 years or more) and eventually let go of his faith. Not, interestingly, because of Biblical fallacies but from what he describes as "God's Problem," in which how does an all powerful all knowing etc etc allow the suffering of humanity....
I can't understand how the second speaker thinks that vague Biblical prophecies "coming true" are proof that the Bible is historical. These prophesies are so vague that you can easily cherry pick events fit the prophecy. You can even find events that fit Daniel's prophesies in American history. On the other hand, he completely unable to offer physical/archaeological proof that supports his events. And he does not even try to rebut the other guy's arguments.
The Christian guy claims that Dan needs to prove that God doesn’t exist beyond a reasonable doubt, but I’ve never seen any believer prove that God DOES exist beyond a reasonable doubt. I’ve never seen anyone prove that God exist using even minimal evidence besides personal experience.
I have spirit unicorns in my back garden. I can't prove it to you but you can't disprove it either, so that makes me right 😂😂😂. I can invent anything I like on the basis of what can't be disproved. "Why do elephants paint their toenails red? So they can hide in cherry trees! Have you ever seen an elephant in a cherry tree? No? Shows how good the disguise is" 😂
I can prove that the Christian God does not exist, at least, not as described in his book. •He says in multiple places that he always affirmatively answers prayers, then doesn't •He is said to be omniscient but is surprised quite often •He is said to be omnipotent but can't beat humans armed with iron chariots, and gets angry when surprised •Zero evidence of an Exodus or worldwide flood. •Could have appeared to Tiberius, Pontius Pilate and the Sanhedrin after the resurrection but kept to his buddies (and a single non-eyewitness account claiming also 500 randoms saw him), again, pointing to lack of omniscience. That's a pretty stupid god. •Is still completely dismissed as fiction by more than 2/3rds of all humans, despite being all powerful and wanting us to know him.
Cut it out, Devon. You're in denial. You're intelligent enough to know that the circumstantial evidence of intelligent design in creation clearly points to the existence of an intelligent, benevolent Creator.
Donny . Please be specific. But let me explain my statement. Adhering to a religious or ideologic faith, is mostly connected to a confession to some principles that are seen as absolute, unchangeable, inerrant, in the case of religions beyond death. And these kind of faiths are based on holy texts and manifests. These things create a segregation which actually means: We are right, the others are wrong. You can observe that everywhere.
@@donny5429 Except for the unavoidable fact that few religions acknowledge the existence of other deities in their doctrine. This means that either 1. only one religion has the truth and only their deity exists , 2 All or some of their contradictory deities exist and for reasons known only to themselves said deities are either in ignorance or denial of, or purposefully hide the existence of other supreme beings, which is not exactly behaviour befitting of a god or goddess, or: 3. None of them exist. Of course that is without going into the various splinter sects which encourage their slaves to believe that others who worship the same god are "doing it wrong" and will be punished for it. If you want to disagree with a statement like the one made above, fine. But it is customary in debate to actually then offer a logical reason and maybe a qualifying argument for your view. Merely telling us that you disagree is frankly a waste of time for all concerned.
@@wassilykandinsky4616 I don’t think someone is wrong to believe in something they find to be true. Why would they not? If they believe it in their heart, who are you to tell them their wrong or that it’s just another religion?
@@denemessina8601 I believe there is a designer behind what we see today. I just can’t get myself to believe that things just came to be with a Big Bang and evolution. If you really think about the Big Bang, it makes no sense. Two atoms that just happen to be wondering around the universe waiting to explode into what we call human beings, wildlife, and the rest of the universe.
Anybody could read the Bible before the internet and see it's contradictions. Just buy a Bible and keep an open mind and take notes if you see things that don't make sense.
It's interesting that Daniel doesn't mention the Romans. But clearly it does refer to the Romans after very careful interpretation. In fact, after very careful interpretation, it actually mentions anything I like.
Daniel was a captive of Babylonians, the first ancient kingdom, which was followed by Medo-Persia, then Greeceand later the Roman empire. How will he mention the Romans, a kingdom that existed millenuims after Daniel was dead. Intact, its during Daniel's time as a captive in Babylon that the prophecy for the world political succession was Given to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonian (Mesopotamia). If the Bible is really Fiction, does it give account of these kingdoms in succession? Does history confirm the events recorded in the Bible? The Bible is the most accurate book ever written. whoever doesn't understand it is because they have chosen not to. Read the Bible with Hiistory and confirm.
@@eo9438 like many good lies , there is a kernel of truth. But there is no Egyptian record of Moses or a sizeable captive Hebrew population. For example. As for the " miracle's" , you don't really believe people can walk on water or rise from the dead ? But the greatest improbability is the god of Abraham himself. He is a venal , violent, cruel psychopath. Why would the creator of the Cosmos want me to worship it? And if l didn't, torture me forever? You are welcome to such a god , I will have nothing to do with it.
@@eo9438 Suppose I wrote a story about the assassination of John F Kennedy and buried in my garden. Should anybody discover it, in say 500 years time, what would they think ? Would they think it had been written before or after the event ?
47:57 Well look here: Millions of Mickey Mouse Dolls exist. Millions of Mickey Mouse Coloring Books exist. Millions of Mickey Mouse Clocks, and Watches exist. A bunch of old Mickey Mouse Telephones even exist! There is hardly a living person today, anywhere on Earth, who has never heard of Mickey Mouse! Who in their right mind, would doubt the truth of the existence of Mickey Mouse?
@@rondecambio7375 None of the following fantasy figures ever existed, but were inventions of the story tellers among the ancient Hebrews: Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Mickey Mouse is better known, and more loved, than any of these phony Hebrew "Holy Book" figures.
@@robertmyers6865 He knows the Bible very well and that's why he's not a believer. Yahweh is not God and is in fact the very Devil he claims to have created 😈
If I went to the most devout Christians and told them that God told me to kill my son (Abraham story), how many of them would actually believe me and/or condone it? Yet Christians praise Abraham for deciding to kill his son. Oh the hypocrisy
I'm like Dan; ex fundamentalist Christian. Eventually my sense of self respect wore down my defence of the indefensible. I woke up, "saw the light" and left the church. A few years later I admitted to myself I was no longer a believer. That was thirty years ago. Now, when I hear Christians defending or explaining their faith, it's nothing short of embarrassing. I've heard all these arguments so many times and none of them hold any water. It's cringeworthy that anyone with a working brain could believe and follow a religion.
Without God our are thoughts nothing more then the arbitrary movement of neurons? Why would our thoughts be any more relevant to reason then the passing of wind? Never heard any naturalist give a good reason why reason matters in their view. Also to me the idea of an indefinite regress of events without a beginning of time is evident God exist. If you admit to there being a beginning to the universe you must understand nothing doesn't produce something. Theories about a multiverse or a collapsing and expanding universe fall victim to the same indefinite regress problem
@@ChillAssTurtle That's no critique of what I proposed, just baseless anger. I'll reiterate what I said since you seemed not to understand. Why is the movement of neuron (brain activity) more meaningful to reason then the wind moving. Both are a result of seemingly arbitrary chaos of matter and and electrons colliding with each other. Basically I'm asking why does your thoughts matter if there is no objective standard to reason and truth. It seems to me in atheism human thoughts are no more meaningful then any other interaction, after all it's just matter and electric moving rather arbitrarily
It's a bit disrespectful to not name the other guy in the video description. Whether you agree with him or not, he's a human being worthy of being identified; even Dan Barker acknowledges his courage in participating. At least he's there, in the arena, being vulnerable, stating his position, not hiding. Like him or not, it's admirable. Most people wouldn't do it.
That's your cry-baby whine? Not respectful to name the religious progogandist spreading bullshit? Perpetuating nonsense? ... But you're worried about not being named?
Must be more important issues in the world, for these individuals to address, than arguing about non existent beings. Absolutely no relevance in the 21st century. The rest of us have moved on.
I figured all of this out by the age of nine, the bible has a severe lack of correspondence with the real world, what I've always found absolutely astounding at the time and to this day was the fact that grown ups believe this stuff,
YOu said it . Correspondence with the real world. people go to the bible because it gives people what they want . People of course don't want to grow up !
@@yvesandrethevenot3489 no you don’t , I learn directly from witchcraft books and saw real paranormal phenomena, hell is real you are being warn , your life is a lie and no human can escape .
I believe most long time believers are scared to say they are wrong ...as then and only then they would realise they have waisted all there life on this beautifull planet and just enjoying instead waiting for the end to go to heaven ...😮
The Old Testament is framed on the template of the hero’s journey. It’s as viable as Jason and the Argonauts. Just a different genre of story telling. People today lost what to do with them. Theists think they’re historical. I presume, as do others, that’s a fear based thing.
I am embarrassed to say that it took me until my 30s to finally apply critical thinking to my cherished beliefs. A God that takes joy in blood sacrifices and obsessed with foreskins is so odd to me now that I am free from Christianity.
It's hardly you fault, it's simply a matter of location, I live in England and never considered scriptures or the bible to have any actual truth, I never went to church, in fact I don't know anyone that did, had I lived somewhere that church and bible was a daily thing it's quite possible I would have believed some of it..... that's the trick fill young minds with crap and hope some stays put.
Congratulations bro. I never believed it since I was a kid. That benevolent God never made sense to me. But I hung on it ( attempting to convince myself every day ) because of fear to find myself one day in hell , being burned forever. I was on in my 30 when browsing TH-cam; unexpectedly: a debate ( does God exist ) between Dan Brker and Kyle Butt popped up in my screen. I watched the entire debate and I started yo read the bible ( stupidest book ever writen ) Yeeaaapp ! It did take long to draw the conclusion that no way such a stupid character can the architect of such complicated and sophisticated universe. And , because I can't assimilate the two ; therefore: none of them exist for me.
Notice how that Christian presents his quotes on what looks like original, aged, parched pages when of course that's all fake; they weren't written in English! Why would he do that? Next he'll put choir music behind his speech. Sorry, that doesn't make your arguments any less ridiculous. Also talking really fast makes you sound desperate!
Anyone can write down human experiences, principles and perceptions metaphorically ascribing it the word of the Lord or a higher external source or poweri.e. sin and human depravity. These are all perceptions of bronze and iron age men trying to understand the reality of the unpredictability and adverse behaviors of men, and the antinomy of nature.
@Seraphim Step. i think he is using the bible to disprove the bible, because debating with Christians myself, they use the bible to explain or prove the Bible.
Yes, it's amazing how 'Daniel' (who never existed) was able to predict all these things that had already happened by the mid 2nd Century, when The Book of Daniel was actually written. The guy arguing against is both shallow-minded, and dishonest.
The second speaker says no archeological evidence has contradicted anything in the old testament, but failed to provide anything to support this assertion. In fact the opposite is true. As Dan said, cities referred to in the old testament didn't exist at the time. There is no evidence of millions of slaves living in Egypt, let alone exiting en masse and wandering in the desert, taking years to complete a journey that should take weeks, getting lost when all they had to do was follow the coast, etc. etc. There has never been a global flood. And so on.
the numbers saying 603550 fighting men in Exodus 38 which implies a few million in total is impossible, it was merely hyperbolic, this goes on all the time where numbers in the old testament are deliberately inflated and excessively large, was just a literary device of the time. It surely was just a few thousand runaway slaves in total. As for the flood, there's loads of evidence. Fossils and numerous records of flood myths that have been found in practically all ancient cultures.
Well, it isn't true to begin with horrible or not. The problem the apologists, as I say repeatedly in my own vids, is they ignore the fact that many Hebrew stories are modified stories from other cultures. No one could logically argue that the flood story came from the ancient Sumerians for example. So when they "prove" a historical "fact" or relic that they claim gives legitimacy to the Old Testament they really aren't. Or they find a piece of evidence for events in history and make this grand leap that it proves the entire bible story. Like when a piece of evidence showed Hebrew slaves. I'm sure there were some Hebrew slaves. But there is nothing to show global slavery nor exodus of what would have been several million people. That is a fallacy and the type of fallacy the apologists use in most of their arguments. Cheers, DCF
What made this man a enemy of the cross. 1John 2:19 clearly speaks of this type if person. They went out from us but were not of us as now manifested. Sad pray that he repents and becomes a true believer.
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
All those fantastic incidents are exaggerations and hyperbole intended for a reason and never intended to be historically precise. The lessons in them are important. Hitting the rock produces water means that finding water seemed as impossible as it flowing from a rock but because of their "faith" the Israelites achieved it. I am sure they dug deep and hit an aquifer! My take is that it means never to give up hope even when everything seems lost. It does not help to think in any other way. I am not religious in the least. Is it even known how many times the Testaments were written and rewritten?
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
Christian Knowledge anticipates the mode what it means to be a Christian and how to live a Christian life. For all of the effort that we put into our preaching, we apparently find, to our disappointment, that our listeners are ignorant of the basics- a situation that reflects badly on the publicans. With challenges to Reformed orthodoxy all around in the forms of Arminianism, deism, and other "fashionable schemes," it is vital for us to be well-armed with historical truth so that we can repel heterodox invasion. It may well be, too, that we hear, and try to lay the groundwork for a new revival among people. Apostle Paul's admonition to the Christian Hebrews aptly suit our case. If we have a want of proficiency in the knowledge of Christian teachings. Like Paul, I'm not speaking of divine or experimental knowledge but of doctrinal knowledge that can be received by the Holy Spirit. Thus, when people have been able to digest "strong meat," my listeners are still babes who requires "milk of of the word that they can grow thereby." In the Doctrine, we move progressively through four propositions. We begin with defining "divinity" as that which concerns the great things of religion and, more specifically, "the doctrine of living to God by Christ." Given this definition, what kind of knowledge is to be sought first? Where does the Christian begin? Let us identify speculative, or intellectual, knowledge and practical knowledge, which abides in a sense of the heart. Seek the former in order to gain the latter. Rather than being exclusive of each other, the two are integrally connected. Speculative knowledge is the essential building block because, without it, the means of grace are in vain. Both require a certain fund of knowledge in the recipient to be effective. Finally, Christians should endeavor to grow in this sort of knowledge; they should "make a business of it." God gave humankind the faculty of understanding for this very end. The things of divinity are, in themselves, "things of superlative excellency" and therefore worthy of being sought. As such, they are of infinite concern to the Christian. Even more, God has left us a guide in the form of his revealed Word and has appointed ministers to teach what is written there. The Application brims with practical advice. Let me begin by telling you not to be content with a nominal amount of knowledge: "your catechism" and "as much of the principle of religion as is necessary to salvation." Instead, seek to excel in knowledge of divinity. As is so often my strategy, the (AV), Authorized Version, also called the King James Version gives you all what is needed to be a spiritual elite saint with a humble pie in your face. People should seek to edify one another and expand one another's knowledge. My own obsession with Scripture reading alone will become a regular theme in sermons on the street in Waikiki, while minister one to one, the knowledge of diverting in exuberant exhortation and Faith by Grace is the all in all. My criticism of christians is that they talk too much of worldly matters, of public affairs and contentions. They would benefit from serious pursuit of Christian knowledge as a way of weaning them from the world. If all would only seek such knowledge, they would find it a "noble," "pleasant," and "useful" way. I conclude with a list of practical directions on how to gain knowledge, including reading and searching the Scriptures, avoiding vain conversation, and seeking spiritual benefits. "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Philippians 1:27).
The tradition of taking the bible literally (or literalistically) is a relatively new one. There are section which everybody (even the most fervent evangelical) would take allegorical; e.g., I am the door. Where the border between allegory and literal meaning is, differs between different traditions (of which there are thousands). Dan's argument is good: even the most fervent Christians would agree that Mohamed was not riding into heaven on a winged horse. Belief in biblical inerrancy is a decision, not a necessity.
his delivery is stressful to listen too. besides heavy use of the filler "ah", I thought he was gonna hyperventilate. perhaps some tch and alcohol to relax...
Dan is such a good orator. I wish I had half his ability to explain, and I’m a school teacher. I only stumbled upon some of his stuff last night. As, I think, your regular Aussie, I didn’t really have much religion around me growing up. Sometimes I have a bit of a look at some of the religious stuff on YT. I often think Au and the US and pretty similar, but boy… when it comes to religion 😳
Yes. Separation of church and state, except in USA. Gotta be religious to be a politician in USA. Senate and house vote according to their false or fake religion. F the USA.
@@edwardgatey8301 I think most pms we’ve had have been religious (off the top of my head), but it almost never comes up. For instance a reference to god is rarely ever made during speeches, which seems to happen over there all the time. I think Julia Gillard would call herself atheist. See, even that term ‘atheist’, I only ever really hear when I watch American stuff. It just isn’t that big a deal here.
I live in Oklahoma . These Christians will stone ya ! They also will let criminals ,( local drug addicts who owe money to the courts). Terrorize women and people who don't believe. They do character assignation. Call you crazy to the community so people will fear you therefore you will receive no help.
I'm being terrorized by local druggies in my sml town in Oklahoma. Going through a bad divorce from a local rich attorney . I was starving had no running water or electric or natural gas for heat. I begged five different preachers for help. They all said ....they had no time and would pray for me.
Barker does a terrible job of interpreting the text. He also contradicts himself about 20 times. His rhetoric has nothing to do with the actual Hebrew bible, it's all an argument against his own past ignorance. He hates the fact that he took it literally at one point, thus an intense bias is taking place. Obviously it's mythology. But that doesn't mean "none of it is true" as he stated numerous times. And then he claims 51% is fiction or something.... which is it? Is "none of it true" or is " at least 51% fiction", those are mutually exclusive statements. No, Barker isn't even debating the Christian guy, hes fighting his own former beliefs. And there is certainly plenty in the Hebrew bible that is historical. Assyria existed and they sacked Canaan. Whether the details and time are true is irrelevant, because it's mythology. So did Babylon. So did Cyrus and Persia. These are just a few examples. "Jew": means a person of the Kingdom of Judah. It doesn't mean "one who practices Judaism, the religion of the Kingdom of Judah" The Hebrew bible is simply the mythology of the Kingdom of Judah. And yes, the Kingdom of Judah actually existed. So did the Davidic Kingdom, which there is evidence for. Not to say David himself was necessarily historical, all though he likely was. And the particulars of his life are probably not very accurate. The Tel Dan stelle from the 9th century BCE clearly mentions the Kingdom of David. I wish Barker was less bias. But he really isn't.
ESCAPE THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL DAMNATION BY BELIEVING JESUS CHRIST CONQUERED DEATH AND HELL ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY BY SHEDDING HIS BLOOD, FORGIVING THE SINS OF THE BELIEVER THROUGH SAVING FAITH IN ETERNAL SALVATION. DO NOT TRUST IN YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS AND SELF HELP. PRAY THIS PRAYER WITH ME: JESUS, I NOW BELIEVE BY FAITH ALONE THAT YOU HAVE DIED FOR MY SINS AND WAS RESURRECTED THE THIRD DAY. SAVE MY SOUL AND BE MY LORD AND SAVIOUR.
@@dasgelbevomei4739 The Triune God reads our minds because he created us, and we are guilty if not worship the glorious Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ, that we may escape eternal damnation in hell as dying in our sins, instead of Everlasting Joy in New Jerusalem !!
@Brendan Butler "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:18-20) Ps: No bot are filled with the Spirit of the Living Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ !!
I can't stand biblical literalists. "The Bible is literally true and factual because it is the word of God. And I know Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so."
My father in law was Dean of Religion for a college for nearly 50 years. PhD scholar with six languages to study the original materials and a truly amazing memory. His comment was clear: "Anyone who thinks the Bible is literally true is an idiot," followed by "It was never meant to be taken literally." Cheers.
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
@@johnstewart4350 So what? That kind of *literature* is used to justify unjustifiable arrogance. It is essentially no different from any of the other crap in there.
The old testament is at least 5000 years old.How could anyone with a brain think it s exactly as writtern.I hate the horrid thing he said about God.It s so disrespectful and just plane mean but, god wanted people love and respect everyone and mistakes would teach you to be a better person.He was forming the life and morals of the human race not play evil games for fun.I am a jew who has read that Bible hundreds of times.Yes god could be mean but in a learning way to teach us.But basically He was a warm and living god who taught us to live with our enemies.He loved us so much we were his chosen people because in his eyes we were the best.He saved our male children in Egypt,freed us from slavery gave us Moses and the 10 commandments.,he gave us the arc of the covenant which produced manna a food that fed the Jews in the dessert for 40 year to isreal.I don t call that a miserable mean person.He was a teacher and a god he is the holy of holies and I love him.He also brought Christians a blessed leader as well as a teacher.How can you say such horrid thing about our holy wounderful God????
Tribal Gods, were quite commonplace in ancient, and prehistoric times. During the Roman Empire, every family had a shrine devoted to their family deity. Each individual, likewise, could chose a single favorite deity to devote his worship to, and make sacrifices to. It was believed, that having the favor of a special deity, better guaranteed protection from that deity. Of course, the Ancient Hebrews likewise, had their special "Tribal God" that protected, and favored them over other tribes, and nations! These are the historic roots of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "Holy Books".
Eh..... Barker doesn't really have clear insight into what he's talking about. He's arguing against his own previous ignorance. He obviously has contempt for his own past, his own ignorance that led him to taking it literally in the first place, which has lead to this quite fallacious argument. Of course both arguments are fallacious, the literalist interpretation and Barker's. But Barker has many facts wrong. In one spot he claims 51% is not historical, and in others he claims "NONE of it is true"....... those statements contradict each other. Because this isn't a genuine examination of the Hebrew mythology, it's a rant by Barker about his own inability realize it was mythology sooner. And that contempt for it makes him completely biased. Just like the literalists love for it makes him biased. There certainly is loose historical occurrence mixed with legend. It doesn't matter if they placed the Philistines in the wrong period, the Philistines existed and the general narrative reflects that. It really does not matter if they place it earlier than it really was. I don't know why there is this need to either take it all as true or take none of it as true, when reality is somewhere in the middle.
I just think of the tens of millions across the world who have been duped and deceived by the purveyors of religion over the millennia. How many wasted hours and lives have resulted from unquestioned believe in legends, fables and fairy stories? The greatest scam ever told!
Ezekial mentions Daniel, but not Isaiah, Jeremiah, and even Elijah. Clearly, Daniel must be some ancient name that nobody can say anything about(mythologists do this all the time; they put them in obscure places and times so nobody can say anything about the mythology)
i have not found one person, regardless of education, who can beat DB in a debate...the man has a laser logic that only a fool can deny...he simply makes the case...FAITH: pretending to know shit u just don't know...that's why it's called "faith"...but if u know for certain, it's knowledge, not faith.
The Holy Spirit speaks (1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 2:7); He demonstrates (1 Corinthians 2:4); He intercedes (Romans 8:26); He quickens (Romans 8:11); He gives utterance (Acts 2:4); He creates (Psalm 104:30); He comforts (John 14:26); He sheds abroad the love of God in my heart (Romans 5:5); He renews (Titus 3:5). He is the Spirit of holiness (Romans 1:4), the Spirit of wisdom and understanding (Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17), the Spirit of truth (John 14:17); The Spirit of knowledge (Isaiah 11:2), the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), the Spirit of glory (1 Peter 4:14), the Spirit of my God (1 Corinthians 6:11), the Spirit of the living God (II Corinthians 3:3), the good Spirit (Nehemiah 9:20), the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11), the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), the Spirit of life (Revelation 11:11), and the Spirit of His Son (Galatians 4:6). Such is the Holy Spirit by whom John Stewart is sanctified (II Thessalonians 2:13), "the eternal Spirit" by whom "Christ offered Himself without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14). Such is the Holy Spirit by whom I am "sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30), the Spirit who makes me His habitation (Ephesians 2:22), who dwelleth in me (II Timothy 1:14), by whom I am kept looking to and looking for Christ and by whom I am made to "abound in hope" (Romans 15:13). John Stewart ~ hbh@email.com
@@homeontherange733 There are three basic types of agnostics. The first says, 'I don't know, but I wish I did.' The second says, 'I don't know, and I don't care.' The last says, 'I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.' The first type of agnostic is a searcher. If his searching is honest, he will find the answers he is looking for. No hungry heart ever goes unfed. The second option is extremely foolish. This kind of agnostic is too lazy to search for answers. Indeed, he does not even want to be bothered with the questions. To say, I don't know and don't care is to admit that you don't even know if not caring is wise. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. What would you say? Your basis for rejecting my truth claims about God is your assumption of another truth about God. You are saying that God is such that he cannot be known by man. You are claiming to know something about God. This claim to knowledge is inconsistent with your claim to be an agnostic. In order to have truth about God, it must be given us by God. But in order to make the denial, you have to say something true about God. You have to say that God may be there, and if He is, He is the sort of being who is incapable of communicating truth to man. Either that, or He is unwilling to. In either case, you are claiming to know something about God. Where did you get this knowledge about God? When Jesus Christ judges the world, that truth will be completely evident. The one who will judge is the same one who died and rose again. That death was for sinners and is offered to sinners. Those sinners who reject to be forgiven cannot complain of unfairness when God does not apply it to them.
This experience the last few weeks are like finding out Santa's fake all over again.... heart breaking. I wanted the truth though.. I won't start regretting any choices now.
I just went through this the last year as well. It’s pretty tough and you can get pretty angry or sad at times. A good resource for me was Recovering From Religion. Stay strong buddy!
When you begin to ponder the benefit of its promulgation and consider who benefits from the indoctrination, you will find there is no pain to hold on to. :)
@@agentfmib9206 I moved in with my uncle 600 miles from where i grew up in 2020 to start fresh in life and rekindle my relationship with God/Jesus. They were mormons so I knew it would be extreme religious environment but seeing my uncle sending his church $1,000/month while also giving them free labor as an accountant, and paying them to send his kids across country on a mission to recruit people to their church for 2 years made me start digging deeper into what was going on. I don't feel bad for myself. Them........ Mmmmm. I don't even know how to face them and go with it...
@@bradgaines I never really worried about it previously. My belief in a God was formed from a bias that said God loved me and therefore surely his hrand plan COULDNT end with ME in hell. Religion is a huge thought experiment fortunately for you or anyone else that ever feared hell. You'll do what you're told by anyone who says your eternity rests in your servitude toward man, for God. Lol. Funny how that works. I'm so mad at myself.
@@zachio69 Good question - because it says that the Messiah will come and be killed, and that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed - Daniel 9:26; 9:27 is yet to come; there are 4 commandments by different kings re Jerusalem, but the one by Artaxerxes Longimanus fits the bill here; Sir Robert Anderson wrote a book about this, "The coming Prince".
@@Bible_bits This is what I'm reading in Daniel 9:26 - 27 "26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” " I'm not seeing anything about a messiah bruh. Are you sure this isn't just wishful thinking?
Almost all scholars say that the Book of Daniel was written during the Maccabean period because the events described closely follow what was happening at the time.
@DrakenViggen "Actually, homeslice, it's on YOU to prove your point, not the other way around." What point did @Paul Lever make? As far as I can tell he just asked for evidence of the claim made by @Pat Downs. So no, homeslice, I'm afraid you have your burden of proof backwards.
@@paullever2085 The Maccabean period was 167-160 BC. Collins, John J. (1984). Daniel: With an Introduction to Apocalyptic Literature places the authorship of Daniel in the 160s. FFS, this isn't rocket science.
"It is from the Bible that man has learned Cruelty, Rapine, Genocide and Slavery for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.” It would be more consistent that we call [the Bible] the work of a demon than the word of God. In the entire first Christian century Jesus was not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! references." "Jesus Christ Was never Exist "
Hate to tell you this …cruelty comes from man the way men treat men because they’re selfish self-centered narcissists and fallen and arrogant just like you… Think about that tonight instead of your bullshit. Seems like you should study a little deeper.
Dan just speaking facts that we can understand automatically wins this debate. 3 minutes into the other guys speech he is all over the place with charts, talking fast, and jumping around from point to point with zero proof. He's a perfect Christian.
Ross Perot had charts too. U know nada.
@@mariag8806 ross perot relative perhaps? Doubtful.
It takes imagination to propose a debate can be had with one who thinks travel is best done with one foot in fantasyland.
In the XII century significant events take place, as described in the Gospels: the coming of Jesus Christ, his life and crucifixion, although the existing text of the Gospels was edited and most likely dates to the XIV-XV cc. In the mid XII century, in the year 1152, Jesus Christ is born. In secular Byzantine history he is known as Emperor Andronicus and St. Andrew the Apostle the First-Called in Russian history he was portrayed as the Great Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky. To be more specific, Andrey Bogolyubsky is a chronicler counterpart of Andronicus-Christ during his stay in Vladimir-Suzdal Rus’ of the XII century, where he spent most of his life. In fact, the Star of Bethlehem blazed in the middle of the XII century. This gives us an absolute astronomical dating of Christ’s Life. [ЦРС], ch.1. ‘Star of Bethlehem’ - is an explosion of a supernova, which at present is incorrectly dated to the middle of the XI century. The present-day Crab Nebula in the Taurus Constellation is the remnant of this explosion.
Enigmatic timber scarcity in Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages as first recognized by dender-pioneer Ernest Hollstein (1918-1988) "No sites exist anywhere with uninterrupted timber specimen from about 1000 CE backwards to Imperial Antiquity(1st-3rd c.). which is why the dendro-chronologies for Ancient Rome and, thereby the entire first millennium are in disarray. Since the very existence of the chronology periods without wood samples was never doubted by the researchers, nobody started to question our textbook chronology. Instead, out of stratigraphic context, scholars searched for wood samples in wells or moors to fill the irritating gaps. In addition, identical reign sequences were used twice in a row to gamer more years. Therefor, "all dendrochronological datings done on West Roman time wood is wrong by some unknown number of years"(") th-cam.com/video/c876lPZ-UZU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PlanetAmnesia
@Stupidityindex feel sorry for those who cant think for themselves.
I totally agree, apologists overload the audience with so many claims that the audience get overwhelmed and only realize later that it was all talk no substance. He also fits the bill as an apologist because he has not converted anybody to his cult, though he thinks he has… Dan is playing theological chess with a pigeon
If we're counting predictions the Simpsons should be up there as a holy show.
On god 😂
Amen! 😜
"Predictions" lol
facts 💯
Coincidentally the Simpsons are prophetic in the same sense that Daniel was prophetic. The events had already taken place when the prophecies were made
Let’s all just think about it for a minute. If any of the characters from the Bible were around today telling their stories wouldn’t they all be labeled schizophrenic and most likely locked up? I’m sure as hell I’d be locked up if I tried saying God told me to sacrifice my son.
Millions of women sacrifice their children Adam, many forced to do so by atheist governments,ie China, North Korea.
@@JC57515 yeah but Abraham was perfectly willing to do it wasn’t he.
@@captaingraybeard sure, reluctantly, but he knew God could raise his son from the dead. The Lord never intended to carry out a human sacrifice. Ask yourself, what has atheism achieved globally? Dreadful massacres in Russia, China, Korea Cambodia, etc,etc,etc. One third of the population of Cambodia slaughtered without mercy
@@JC57515 the Jews, Muslims and Christians have all been killing each other for centuries. All in the name of the same exact god. How’s that any better?
The fact of the matter is it’s human nature for the strong to dominate the weak. So if we’re all “created in his image” what’s that really say about god?
I don’t know why I used to take this second guy’s opener as proof of anything. I did, though. It’s a jail of the mind. You want to know who saved ME? When the Internet was new and I was searching for Truth, Dan Barker himself was kind enough to enter into an email exchange with me. He answered all my questions, recommended books and barely-there websites, and was endlessly patient with me. Thank you, Dan! Since then, I’ve left the church, 2 years later my husband followed, our 6 children grew up as unbelievers, and they’ve established unbelieving households for my grandchildren.
You have to take a lot of credit for yourself. It is a rarity that former believers see thru the myths of their former religions.
@@antoniochavez508 Fact is some were not believers in the first place so its very easy to stop believing in something you never did. I cant see into the mind of people so what they believe I dont know, but I have heard many people who attend church say they only attend for the social life.
And so what-no you've embraced a literally mindless and unscientific worldview where you have no rational basis for logic or even your own "moral" views, where none of the most fundamental questions of human existence (origins, meaning, morality, ultimate destiny) receive any meaningful answers? Why is that?
@David Burrey I can help with that. Firstly, The Old Testament is framed on the template of the hero’s journey. It’s as viable as Jason and the Argonauts. Just a different genre of story telling. The fact that Genesis was written for their people at that time and matched their life is kind of a "duh" moment. In the original creation story, The Babylonian, Enuma Elish, they talk about building Babylon and zigarats. Archeology shows those are real. So by default, the Enuma Elish is real? Greek myth sails from real places. So real stories? We don't need anyone to show us this. We can see it for ourselves. You just chose to place one in a different category for person reasons.
Gods existence has yet to be demonstrated. Even remotely.
You are wonderful
Imagine for a moment that I released a book in 2010 that I supposedly wrote all the way back in 1995 and I claim that it contains dozens of prophetic revelations. So you're reading through the book and you notice that the prophecies about the years 1996, 97, and 98 are mostly accurate but they are fuzzy in a few places and contain some information that was thought to be true even just a few years ago, but we have since discovered it's not accurate. You find that kind of interesting so you keep reading.
You notice that the closer you get to the 2010 release date of the book, the more accurate and specific the prophecies become. The housing market crash in 08 is described in detail, including names of important people at the time, important dates and places, with very very few errors.
"Wow" you think. "Amazing!" You keep reading.. but suddenly all the prophecies about events occurring after 2010 are entirely unspecific. They are so vague they could be interpreted to mean any number of things. Gone are the dates, the names of people and places and their effect on history. The language is ambiguous and poetic. No longer do we see "predictions" like "Barack Obama shall be elected president on the promise of healthcare reform". Instead we see flowery language like "and the 3 great waves of the sea shall terrify the people and pillars of smoke and ash shall rise from lands to the east and west"
The only people who wouldn't see through the sharade are those who desperately wanted to believe I was a prophet. Everyone else would correctly surmise that I didn't write the book in 1990, I wrote it in 2010. My memory was a little fuzzy on events that took place 20 years earlier but I got the gist of it right. Events that had just taken place prior to 2010 were fresh in my memory, so details were clear and accurate. But since I have no prophetic abilities, I had to resort to vague, ambiguous predictions with no specific timelines for everything after 2010.
And that folks, is the book of Daniel.
2010 was an interesting year ... a blood moon eclipse and full moon (lunar Sabbath). What also happened 2010? Vatican told the world is has been appointing ALL Mr Presidents since George Wershington. And what did We the PERSONS do? THEY F'ING VOTED ... AGAIN AND AGAIN and about to 2024! The ONLY correct definition for "insanity" is We the PERSONS aka American voters voting over and over and (bend) over expecting results different than wars and debt, debt and wars, wars and debt. And We the PERSONS could careless who the lender is, the terms and conditions and the FACT We the PERSONS and the other brain dead the "Patriots"! Well PERSONS and Patriots ... it''s time to pay the freight! Pay up your fair share or you will be WWIII shot! mRNA ought to clear up much of the debt! Along with the heavily brain damaged WE the PERSONS and Patriots are, perhaps, the MOST dangerous International Terrorists known to man: the "Christians" who actually believe JeZEUS abolished the Law handed to Charlton Heston on mount Sinai ... They go on by claiming JeZEUS is their LORD... well, Saturn is Satans planet. Satan is the LORD of the Rings of Saturn. Satan sent it's only begotten SUN; JeZEUS, to fix the imperfections of God! 1, 2, 3 ... We the PERSONS, Patriots and Christians ...pffft ... gone!
Exactly
@@josephshepherd60 wrong.
You just don’t understand spiritual metaphor.
And all spiritual lessons must be taught in metaphors to break your mind out of dualistic thinking
I do love how, in the rebuttal portion, he goes "See, this other part of the book has this name in it."
Which only really establishes that that book is referring to A Daniel. I personally knew three at one point in my life. So, I guess they were all the author of the book too.
The book of Daniel is in the Septuagint. Septuagint is written/translated before the birth of Christ. Read Daniel 9:24-27 which is a prophecy.
We should not concern ourselves with a fictitious God of vile temperament, and voracious appetite for violence, but we ought to fear those who endeavor to follow him, march to his drums, and obey his commands.
I will be sure to quote this
Unlike Satan, who really loves you.
@@MrDOB1000: Perhaps Yahweh and Satan are one and the same. King David said Yahweh told him to count his fighting men, then in another book, David said it was Satan who had inspired him (Kings and Chronicles). Who knows and who cares. Evil is evil and wicked is wicked. It doesn't matter if evil is done by god or wickedness is done by the devil. What matters is that it was done at all.
Bingo!
March to his drums? Lol sounds occultish to me. U lost?
What I love about this dude is that he was a hardcore christian like I used to be. Finally he came to his senses.
I was a hard core atheist, my journey to Christ started when I was haunted! You can't forget such a terrifying experience. Glory to God.
Jesus said that, simply by asking, we can know Him. Christ is a spirit and those who worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. You were never a Christian you never knew the Lord. Jesus died on a Cross so that we may know Him! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
I never used to be Christian.
@@JC57515 Yeah so coming to "god" saves his people from being "haunted"(whatever tf that is),being robbed,being murdered,and experiencing "hell"?! Whatever helps you get through life,right?
@@lorenzolucifuge1653 thanks Lorenzo, being haunted is a visitation by a Spirit something never forgotten, and very rare and horrible. The name of Jesus is my protection, and its protection has certainly saved me, thank God.
I love how believers resort to slide shows about the bible in order to prove god’s existence instead of just asking “hey god, can you help me out here?”
I have, He did.
cook blahaha very funny
Exactly.. I Always thought abt this.. GOD Doesn't practically Do anything !!in anyone's lives.. Nor does he care to reveal himself when people really just want to see him.. lol
@@JC57515 No. “he” didn’t. Think rationally for 2 seconds for once, and see that’s it’s just of the mind.
@@spacetofu19 I'm not being rude, but you literally don't know what you're talking about. As I said elsewhere, when you see a demon, you'll believe instantly.
Daniel 11 sounds more like a summary of the Game of Thrones than a prediction of the future. Of course, Daniel 11 was written around 164 BCE so it isn't all that amazing that it "predicts" events that happened well before it was written.
I took the time to read the Old Testament when I was 18 and all the things Richard Dawkins says about it are true. It describes a God who is unbelievably horrific.
Actually, if you begin with the premise that just one act of wickedness: one lie, one theft, one disrespectful word towards God is enough to warrant eternal condemnation, then the Old Testament is awe-inspiring in its love, kindness, and mercy.
Yet, is it reasonable that just one sin is enough to eternally condemn someone? The fact of the matter is that heaven is a place of moral perfection. No one will lie to you or steal from you there. That is, if you have lied or stolen, you would simply pollute heaven. If people like you and I were allowed there, how long before 'heaven' looked like South Central LA? We all deserve hell. Therefore, God's judgements in the OT are full of compassion, though they seem very harsh.
For example, let's take a Bible skeptic from 100 years ago who complained about Noah's flood. Unless they made things right with God, they are in hell right now - with those same people God judged. What were they like? It is written that their thoughts were only 'violence continually.' Does that sound like a fun way to spend forever? Moreover, God won't destroy those people in a flood; they will live on and on; are you happy now? God will not kill anyone in hell. However, if you wind up in hell, it is violence continually!' That is who they are! Jesus said that if you go to hell, you will be tortured by the 'torturers.' Now, angels are not in hell, so who are these 'torturers'? Thank God, I will never know. Will you?
I hope that I have 'scared the hell out of you.' You cannot say that I did not warn you. To libel God publicly rather than to humbly ask questions is a terrible crime! Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. The blood of Christ makes us fit for heaven. I hope that you will look to Jesus. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh what do you know of heaven or even if it exists?
@@daylesuess552 oops, I accidently typed my answer to your question in a post below. Oh well, here it is:
Jesus said that, simply by asking, we can know Him. Christ is a spirit and those who worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. Jesus died on a Cross so that we may know Him! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh GO sell your black fear scam somewhere else where you fit in with your "natives".We all think for ourselves here.
@@kenshiloh in other words, you don't know. You just turned your brain off and now you want OTHERS to live a life of lies.
I tried so hard to make any sense of what the Christian guy was trying to say. Unfortunately, it sounded like a torrent of word salad. Dan makes a much more coherent and logical argument.
Lol! I thought I was listening to an auctioneer.
When you dont have any proof or the confidence that comes with knowing you actually have a foot t stand on.
Lol praise Jesus for his fictional facts
@@MarioMancinelli82 or else youll burn forever n god will hate you. Rofl
Christian Ben Shapiro
Dan Barker: uses Science, Archeology, Logic and sound reasoning to show how the Bible is most likely myth and fiction.
Christian: uses the Bible to prove the Bible is fact.
Christianity in a nutshell.
Dan Barker is one of my favorites to do these debates. Him and Hitch, who is sorely missed.
Barker IS BARKING up the Wrong Tree!🤣😭🤣😭🤣🤣😭🤣🤪😜🤣😁
The DAY is coming, You WILL change your mind!!!!! But, it will be tooooo Late to Correct your thinking. You better change IT NOW!!!
True , many Christians do indeed use the Bible to prove the Bible is fact ; the circular fallacy . No worse a non sequitur than that of atheists who posit nature itself as the cause of itself !
@@robertmyers6865 Magic-wielding carpenter wizards aren't real, bro.
Here we go:
Yahweh is a Hebrew tribal male god who always existed and knows all things.
He creates a male human out of dirt and a female human from the man's rib.
He assigns them free will and runs a test to see if they will disobey him, knowing that they will.
When they disobey him as he knew they would, he curses them and remains angry with them and their descendants for thousands of years.
Finally he relents by having a son by a virgin which he sacrifices over a weekend to remove the curse.
Later he rejoins himself in his heavenly kingdom - which is within you, according to his son.
Pure rubbish.
Free will by nature gives you the option to be disobedient. If you want to see how God's mercy and wrath is portrayed read Hosea it only takes about 30 minutes. Also your last state about Gods reunion inside us isn't theologically correct. We're referred to as temples replacing the brick and mortar temples, not his kingdom.
Well - at least what you wrote is pure rubbish. Yahweh is not a male human. He began in infinity from the eternal laws of reality, and for that reason He is all knowing and accomplishes all things. He made Man out of dust - what else is He going to use to create animals? He has only been angry with people because they keep rebelling and doing evil. The curse came on Adam and Eve at the beginning because they disconnected from the spirit of the Lord. It wasn't due to any action from the Lord. Yes, through Jesus the Christ the curse has been removed, IF you repent and receive Him as Savior. The Holy Spirit is then given to reconnect your soul, and at the Second Coming your body is reconnected and becomes eternal again. You have no understanding of spiritual things right now. You need to contact a local church, preferably Baptist.
@DrakenViggen There are no mistakes in a kindergarteners artwork
That's putting it mildly
@@wprandall2452
Yeah, nature!!!
It took me until I was 29 to finally break my yoke with Belief. I finally embrace Knowledge, not Belief.
Philosophy and The Sciences was my key to Freedom from Faith.
It’s a typical position from all those that wanna escape moral responsibilities in this world… There’s good and evil we all know that…there’s truth and lies we’ve all met liars. The philosophers died horrible deaths and knowledge is just information…by the way information doesn’t evolve, matter doesn’t give rise to coded information, things deteriorate in a closed system (2nd law of thermodynamics). Maybe you should examine your beliefs a little deeper.
25 here. Lived with Mormon family for 1yr to change my life around. All boy did I 🤣🤣
This guy thinks he has the authority - what an absolute fuckhead.
As we Cristians do not know the Philosophy and Science... How much you are stupid western Godless and Souless idiot... 🤣🤣🤣 But Jesus knees there were people who would not believe in him, he called them Vipers, that why he said the did not come to bring the Peace but the Sword, that what he meant... Thank you to prove him right You godless and Souless western idiot. 🙂
@@ahmesceanga6382 As we Cristians do not know the Philosophy and Science... How much you are stupid western Godless and Souless idiot... 🤣🤣🤣 But Jesus knees there were people who would not believe in him, he called them Vipers, that why he said the did not come to bring the Peace but the Sword, that what he meant... Thank you to prove him right You godless and Souless western idiot. 🙂
Gotta love how he describes the prohecies in Daniel as clear, specific and concise after having to explain in painful detail how the prophecies line up with reality with winding, complex interpretation and mental gymnastics.
I'm loving how he grounds his entire argument in a book that is almost universally agreed to have been written in the 2nd century BCE, after all of the allegedly prophesied events have already happened, and attributed to a figure, Daniel, who is almost universally agreed to have never actually existed.
I love how a western Godless and Souless idiot come up with a new theory everyday just to attract others godless and Souless western idiots that live in Wealth societies and so lost their faith in God and so they Soul... 🙂
@@gregmark1688 I love how a western Godless and Souless idiot come up with a new theory everyday just to attract others godless and Souless western idiots that live in Wealth societies and so lost their faith in God and so they Soul... 🙂
@@gregmark1688 can’t believe I used to buy this crap
Evolution a "fact" , just a fictitious fantasy, that requires far more faith, than Biblical Christianity, Nothing +Nothing =Everything, Good Luck
using the bible to prove the bible is not really proving anything...
So true. The bible is the claim, not the evidence
As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
@@homophilosofikus8215 As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
it means you dont know what the bible even is about in any way
Pathologically ranting against something that doesn't exist according to the individual, isn't really proving anything
When dealing with a Bible literalist who declares that the Bible is 100% accurate and inerrant, you know you're not dealing with someone who is intellectually honest.
It seems like the Christian gentleman really believes what he's saying. It never ceases to surprise me.
It is amazing how deep belief can be. My belief was powerful before I applied logic to my worldview. Most religious people are "honest"... they believe it. They are just wrong.
It's amazing how powerful brainwashing and indoctrination is. When people you love more than anyone else in the world teach you that something is true, from birth, it is nearly impossible to shake that, even in the face of clear evidence impeaching it.....
@@silverwolfmonastery yuhhh hell is very real to my girlfriend.
@@ChillAssTurtle that is some sad shit. Sorry man
@@silverwolfmonastery its sickness dude
I will reward 1000 dollars to whoever understood what that Christian kid was babbling about.
I was really trying to pay attention to what he was saying, but I fell asleep. I sure didn’t for Dan because he speaks much better and real.
The brain dissolves immediately when you drink the holy koolaid.
@@leoaguinaldo65 😁😁😁😂😂😂😂
@@leoaguinaldo65 You speaking for this Jewish imaginary supernatural been who never existed and supertious claims that never happened evil genocidal racist maniac from the zionist bible. Imaginary been never ever speak for itself but only speak to people in there heads always in there's heads.
Be careful, Kenneth Copeland will come looking for you! 👀
my dog talks to me all the time, it always seems to be when my meds run out
He may as well have just argued “the bible is true because the bible says so”
I believe in it because it makes more sense to me than the Big Bang
Isnt that a known fact?
@@mudslinger888 not sure if you are taking the piss or not 🙄
That's the only argument they have, and it is so evidently wrong, it's laughable
@@mudslinger888 isn't what true?
It's been a while since I thought of 'the salt woman' ....aka Lot's wife..
When i was little, i thought she turned into the Dead Sea ..
She was a primary example I held as a Christian to 'not look back'... I never felt compassion for her, not once.
Now I do. She was only human. Like me.
Yes, that old testament deity is pretty scary. Its also pretty scary that the religion I grew up in taught that same message hook, line and sinker. But I was pretty discerning even as a kid. End of the religion thing.
In ww2 when Jews were gassed and shot it was scarier too. Real life incidents.
Why wouldn't common sense dictate that the thing was fiction? All the stories were mean, and the whole system with a god panting for blood to get paid back for his creatures naughtiness.
It takes a long time to learn something and a greater amount of time to unlearn it..
I have been studying the writings of free rational thinkers all my life. I became an Atheist in around 1960. I have studied the works of the Enlightenment, and the Encyclopedists, as well as all modern Atheist publishers. In my opinion, nobody articulates the evil, that is religion, better than Dan barker. And, as we all know, there is no religion more evil than that as described in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic "Holy Books".
💥 BOOM!
Amen!
Ramen
I feel sorry for you
@@cabdll
Don’t!
Anyone who evangelizes right before a debate automatically loses.
Exactly. And Dan Barker lost.
@@robinrobyn1714 lol... Ok
@@hisvorpalsword Dan Barker evangelized before the debate and insulted something that doesn't exist according to him, calling it various names. He let everyone know that he took great issue with a non existent entity.
@@robinrobyn1714 LOL.... Omg
Script reading is a defeat for the Christian you obviously didn’t listen to this guy reading from the Bible over and over
Dan helped me heal from indoctrination and overcome the abusive, cowardly rhetoric of Christian dogma. Thank you Dan Barker. 🤩
Your humility is astounding...
The old testament is principally the book of another " religion", and is embraced by Christians only through the lens of the New Testaments.
a random kyle...the Old Testament is Dogma but JEWISH Dogma along with The Talmud !!! The Old Testament was written by jewish scribes for jewish people.
Now, if are you referring to The New Testament that's a different subject.
If you don't know the difference between the two is because you're lost about judeo-christian religion.
@Margie Smith AGAIN...they're talking about The Old Testament !
So stick to the subject !
@Margie Smith Old Testament is relevant but PERTAINING mainly to jewish people.
It's irrelevant if you think OT and NT are myths.
Stick to the subject
The second person speaking reminds me of a person who reads a science fiction novel and believes everything in the novel is true .
Dan Barker is an excellent resource following the sad demise of Christopher Hitchens. While I fully endorse Barker I have spent the last 40+years understanding the purpose of religious faith for people. We need to consider compassionately this action/choice of believers of religion . Only then can we relate with those who live their lives by the standards of these religious myths.
Agreed! I am a former Christian, but it's not as if I see Christianity as 100% flawed. For all the theological nonsense, church life itself can provide all kinds of benefits for people. Nothing wrong with that at all.
The very fact that educated, intellectual adults today are still discussing the question of WHETHER the Old Testament is fictional or not is extremely strange to me and also has something grotesque about it!
it's like listening to the voice of reason followed by the voice of Fairy Tail conspiracy theories
Which voice belongs to WHO?
@@robertmyers6865 The Bible is obviously fairy tales
@@robertmyers6865 Reason I'd say Dan, he spoke first dude...
Fairy TALE or STORY, not tail-like that of a dog!!
The way the Christian guy argues screams insecurity, and he would be absolutely crushed by someone like Prof. Francesca Stavrakopoulou, an expert on the Bible and who argues that the Bible is mainly not historical at all. The Chrustian guy just seems to waffle off a load a useless information which can be explained away in other ways.
Dan Barker puts up much more of a convincing argument here.
The default position of ancient stories, or even current ones, is that it is fiction. The fact that some references in literature are verifible such as settings, dating, and people make such works historical fiction, with the emphasis on "fiction."
It's wonderful hearing Dan Barker calmly bringing rationality to those who propose Christian nonsense in their buy-bull. Hearing Tom preach in his tone-deaf manner that never addresses Dan's points is... well... just plain sad...
Dan Barker is a clown.
The sin argument is an interesting one.
Christian apologists claim that Adam and Eve were created perfect but they had freewill - hence why they sinned.
The problem with this claim is that if they were created perfect then they should have always made perfect decisions.
Imperfection does not give birth to perfection.
That goes against the rules of logic.
PERFECTION BEGATS PERFECTION.
IMPERFECTION BEGATS IMPERFECTION.
Logic always wins.
Therefore, the Christian apologists claim is completely wrong from a logical standpoint - of course, that is if we are using the same logical parameters to assess this topic in the same way we would assess everything else in life.
Of course, the Eden story is entirely mythological - but Christian apologists interpret the story literally - thats the problem.
You see foks,
All the geographical locations in the bible are actually real - so are the various people groups mentioned in the bible.
But all the stories are entire mythological and consist of allegory and metaphor.
In fact, all the worlds organised religions are actually the same in this manner.
Ancient Humans were simply trying to understand the world around them and their greater purpose - so they wrote what they SURMISED was Gods nature and mixed in their own folklore tales with it.
They then put these ALLEGORICAL hybrid tales into books and the resulting end products are what you would call the so called "holy books" from the various people groups around the world.
There is nothing surprising about this.
Thats just human beings behaving like human beings.
Throughout the thousands of years people groups from around the world have done this.
The trick is to make the various resulting religions work for YOU.
Rather than YOU working for these religions.
Hell was not taught as a lake of fire in the Old Testament.
The greek idea of hell in the New Testament is very easy to explain.
Let us first examine the Jews.
The orthodox Jews claim that both Christianity and Islam are actually BASTARDISATIONS of orthodox Judaism.
The orthodox Jews do not believe in hell as a place of eternal torture by fire.
That would explain why greek ideas of hell have been put in Jesus's mouth by the greek writers of the New Testament.
Especially, considering that in order for any person to learn greek 2000 years ago the only greek writings actually available to actually PRACTICE learning the greek language were greek mythological epics which documented precisely greek ideas of hell.
For example, Hades and Tartarus are terms for hell copied straight from the greek mythological epics which contained these concepts and ideas.
People simply learnt these Greek epics as a way of practicing reading and writing greek as the main greek writings were all mythological works.
The New Testament writers then copied these greek ideas of hell into the greek
New Testament they were writing.
The New Testament is a fusion of Judaism and Greek mythology.
Hellinistic Judaism is well documented by Orthodox Jews themselves.
It was eventually suppressed -
but It re-emerged as New Testament Christianity in 325ad.
The difference is that this time it was backed by the state of Rome in what became known as Roman Catholicism.
ALL, the various protestant denominations copied these doctrines as they branched off from Roman Catholicism.
They left out other doctrines and took the main doctrines into their new Protestant version of Christianity.
you wanna know what I think; it wasn`t god, who laid down the foundations for the whole sin business, it was a gathering of Jewish mothers ,and they are the culprits we ought to blame them for all the misery of us all.
@@frankiewally1891
Be careful not to say that to their face Frankie.
They control everything in the world and they may have you killed.
I like your courage and honesty though.
@@shaunigothictv1003 Shauni ,let`s not fall into a paranoia; I know the cabal of "heaven" inspired idiots is a danger to the world`s peace, but we must not surrender to the deluded terrorists of any ilk. Life indeed is beautiful and we have a duty to keep it so, despite the relentless attacks of "faithful sheep".
@@frankiewally1891 Excellent analysis.
@@shaunigothictv1003 happy to oblige...
Poor Tom, slow down and think about your evidence, the slides and stories are not evidence...Every time you look down after your speech show your timidity, the faster you talk and the angrier you become doesn’t prove anything other than you lack of confidence or your information....Thank you Dan...
I do not understand him as angry, rather engaged in the topic.
@@kikkan7110 true, not angry, just trying to cram as much of his "proof" into a short amount of time making himself appear hyper and manic...
@@hurdygurdyguy1 I do not believe he is manic at all, I guess he'll have his say, as we all wants to say our piece. Thank you for commenting Sir.
Q616
Poor Paul, can’t retort.
Dan Barker has an excellent command of the American English language. In this New Information Age, with instant global data sharing, we need good communicators, like Dan Barker, more than ever!
As God Cares what you think about his words, the Bible... Western Godless and Souless idiot without objective morals... 🤣🤣 But how much you are stupid Godless and Souless idiot??? 😉
Dan Barker was an imbecile.
He is wrong I have evidence
@@jorgeabuauad spill it then.
@@stevehorn1471 my shame is I was invited to a real satanic sect , I was an atheist, for my it was a just role playing , maybe some sexual thing in the beginning, before I join I wanted to be sure what I was doing , so got many old books about esoteric doctrines , ancients religion , what you could call physics phenomena, etc the lost is not complete .
In the beginning nothing seem to happen , the truth is demonic entity are real , think about them as life form that precede human being , the ufo phenomena the ones that are not a fake , is caused by the intersection of this entity in our reality
Depending the historical moment , the populous have different interpretations, the truth is keep only for the elites , yes even the very scientists who create the theories that discredit religion are part of it , in public they can pretend to be atheist, agnostic, other religion , free thinker or even Christian , yes is complete model of dominion , the only reason I found out is is my stupid obsession with finding secrets .
The cost of trying to learn the truth is a paradox , for you to have real evidence, you need to learn how he very thing that destroy you , yes to learn the truth at this level is almost certain your soul will be condemn to hell , the very think no human should ever do .
Imagine my terror when paranormal phenomena manifest, to live knowing this is the most depressing thing you can know , your life change , you almost breadth fear every day of your life and the real end can be so terrible you would almost anything to avoid it he end .
If you think this a joke let me warn you , some people like me turn against them , most never love to say the truth and even less ever hear them , this is your best chance ever to to know the truth.
Tell me what do you need to know .
I’m in this weird middle ground of not really knowing what I believe but Dan Barker is a fresh of breath air. He’s not a cocky atheists like most of who I see, but someone, who like me, was deep into Christianity and recognizes the right tone to speak from when talking to people. He seems like he kept the good qualities, like being soft spoken and quick to listen but slow to speak.
You are in a good place with no need to go one way or the other. Claiming to know the unknowable one way or the other seemed wild to me once I came to be comfortable with the fact that maybe I don’t know the details of the origins of the universe. Be positive, love everyone and claim ignorance; what could go wrong?
He did keep the good qualities- incredibly ignorant about the Bible, extremely insulting to something that doesn't exist according to him, and pathologically fixated on this non existent entity.
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
@@robinrobyn1714 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
Bart Erhman had a similar history, he became a born again Evangelical Christian before going to college where he was introduced to the "problems" of the Bible (translation errors, historical errors, evidence of editing, etc. btw, most Bible scholars have known about these for 100 years or more) and eventually let go of his faith. Not, interestingly, because of Biblical fallacies but from what he describes as "God's Problem," in which how does an all powerful all knowing etc etc allow the suffering of humanity....
I can't understand how the second speaker thinks that vague Biblical prophecies "coming true" are proof that the Bible is historical. These prophesies are so vague that you can easily cherry pick events fit the prophecy. You can even find events that fit Daniel's prophesies in American history.
On the other hand, he completely unable to offer physical/archaeological proof that supports his events. And he does not even try to rebut the other guy's arguments.
Barker perfectly set up the second guy to sound like a complete lunatic, which he does.
Faith defined: " Faith is all that you have left when you had nothing to begin with".
Faith is the art of lying to yourself
now ask if you even know what faith is
That's idiotic. "Faith" is taken from the Koine Greek language word' Pistis', and it doesn't mean what you wrote.
@@davidbelway6076 Atheism is the art of being pathologically ranting against something that doesn't exist according to the individual.
@@robinrobyn1714 Idiotic is believing in gods based on words not evidence! Who cares where the word comes from.
The Christian guy claims that Dan needs to prove that God doesn’t exist beyond a reasonable doubt, but I’ve never seen any believer prove that God DOES exist beyond a reasonable doubt. I’ve never seen anyone prove that God exist using even minimal evidence besides personal experience.
I have spirit unicorns in my back garden. I can't prove it to you but you can't disprove it either, so that makes me right 😂😂😂. I can invent anything I like on the basis of what can't be disproved.
"Why do elephants paint their toenails red? So they can hide in cherry trees! Have you ever seen an elephant in a cherry tree? No? Shows how good the disguise is" 😂
Look at the trees, therefore god.
@@brianrichards3119 I believe you, I’m a Theist I always believe in fairytale nonsense. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I can prove that the Christian God does not exist, at least, not as described in his book.
•He says in multiple places that he always affirmatively answers prayers, then doesn't
•He is said to be omniscient but is surprised quite often
•He is said to be omnipotent but can't beat humans armed with iron chariots, and gets angry when surprised
•Zero evidence of an Exodus or worldwide flood.
•Could have appeared to Tiberius, Pontius Pilate and the Sanhedrin after the resurrection but kept to his buddies (and a single non-eyewitness account claiming also 500 randoms saw him), again, pointing to lack of omniscience. That's a pretty stupid god.
•Is still completely dismissed as fiction by more than 2/3rds of all humans, despite being all powerful and wanting us to know him.
Cut it out, Devon. You're in denial. You're intelligent enough to know that the circumstantial evidence of intelligent design in creation clearly points to the existence of an intelligent, benevolent Creator.
Everything else but my faith is mythology says every believer in his own mythology.
I think that you think that of yourself and you’re projecting it to everyone. I have to say that I disagree with your statement.
Donny . Please be specific. But let me explain my statement. Adhering to a religious or ideologic faith, is mostly connected to a confession to some principles that are seen as absolute, unchangeable, inerrant, in the case of religions beyond death. And these kind of faiths are based on holy texts and manifests. These things create a segregation which actually means: We are right, the others are wrong. You can observe that everywhere.
@@donny5429 Except for the unavoidable fact that few religions acknowledge the existence of other deities in their doctrine. This means that either 1. only one religion has the truth and only their deity exists , 2 All or some of their contradictory deities exist and for reasons known only to themselves said deities are either in ignorance or denial of, or purposefully hide the existence of other supreme beings, which is not exactly behaviour befitting of a god or goddess, or: 3. None of them exist. Of course that is without going into the various splinter sects which encourage their slaves to believe that others who worship the same god are "doing it wrong" and will be punished for it. If you want to disagree with a statement like the one made above, fine. But it is customary in debate to actually then offer a logical reason and maybe a qualifying argument for your view. Merely telling us that you disagree is frankly a waste of time for all concerned.
@@wassilykandinsky4616 I don’t think someone is wrong to believe in something they find to be true. Why would they not? If they believe it in their heart, who are you to tell them their wrong or that it’s just another religion?
@@denemessina8601 I believe there is a designer behind what we see today. I just can’t get myself to believe that things just came to be with a Big Bang and evolution. If you really think about the Big Bang, it makes no sense. Two atoms that just happen to be wondering around the universe waiting to explode into what we call human beings, wildlife, and the rest of the universe.
Anybody could read the Bible before the internet and see it's contradictions. Just buy a Bible and keep an open mind and take notes if you see things that don't make sense.
It's interesting that Daniel doesn't mention the Romans.
But clearly it does refer to the Romans after very careful interpretation.
In fact, after very careful interpretation, it actually mentions anything I like.
Daniel was a captive of Babylonians, the first ancient kingdom, which was followed by Medo-Persia, then Greeceand later the Roman empire. How will he mention the Romans, a kingdom that existed millenuims after Daniel was dead. Intact, its during Daniel's time as a captive in Babylon that the prophecy for the world political succession was Given to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonian (Mesopotamia).
If the Bible is really Fiction, does it give account of these kingdoms in succession? Does history confirm the events recorded in the Bible?
The Bible is the most accurate book ever written. whoever doesn't understand it is because they have chosen not to. Read the Bible with Hiistory and confirm.
@@eo9438
I have read a very accurate book about the second world war.
At no point did I think it was written many centuries ago.
@@eo9438 like many good lies , there is a kernel of truth. But there is no Egyptian record of Moses or a sizeable captive Hebrew population. For example. As for the " miracle's" , you don't really believe people can walk on water or rise from the dead ? But the greatest improbability is the god of Abraham himself. He is a venal , violent, cruel psychopath.
Why would the creator of the Cosmos want me to worship it?
And if l didn't, torture me forever?
You are welcome to such a god ,
I will have nothing to do with it.
@@eo9438 The Bible claims that plants existed on the Earth before the sun was formed. Not even you can be stupid enough to believe that.
@@eo9438
Suppose I wrote a story about the assassination of John F Kennedy and buried in my garden.
Should anybody discover it, in say 500 years time, what would they think ?
Would they think it had been written before or after the event ?
47:57 Well look here: Millions of Mickey Mouse Dolls exist. Millions of Mickey Mouse Coloring Books exist. Millions of Mickey Mouse Clocks, and Watches exist. A bunch of old Mickey Mouse Telephones even exist! There is hardly a living person today, anywhere on Earth, who has never heard of Mickey Mouse! Who in their right mind, would doubt the truth of the existence of Mickey Mouse?
And yet Mickey Mouse never really existed and was the fictional creation of Walt Disney.
@@rondecambio7375 None of the following fantasy figures ever existed, but were inventions of the story tellers among the ancient Hebrews: Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Mickey Mouse is better known, and more loved, than any of these phony Hebrew "Holy Book" figures.
@@henrikrolfsen584 I agree totally.
Dan Barker metaphorically ran this guy over with a Mack truck 🚛🤕
Dan is a Barker alright. A dog barking up an empty tree.
@@robertmyers6865 He knows the Bible very well and that's why he's not a believer. Yahweh is not God and is in fact the very Devil he claims to have created 😈
"Faith, like a jackal, feeds amongst the tombs."
-- Melville
"A man had faith in a fart, and wound up shitting in his pants." --some guy with whom I used to bowl
@@jkryanspark Lol! Pickup that split .. and then "shackle it" for the head!
@@jkryanspark: "Never trust a fart." - Jack Nicholson (The Bucket List)
If I went to the most devout Christians and told them that God told me to kill my son (Abraham story), how many of them would actually believe me and/or condone it? Yet Christians praise Abraham for deciding to kill his son. Oh the hypocrisy
As soon as the christian guy opened his mouth, argument was lost.
I'm like Dan; ex fundamentalist Christian. Eventually my sense of self respect wore down my defence of the indefensible. I woke up, "saw the light" and left the church. A few years later I admitted to myself I was no longer a believer. That was thirty years ago. Now, when I hear Christians defending or explaining their faith, it's nothing short of embarrassing. I've heard all these arguments so many times and none of them hold any water. It's cringeworthy that anyone with a working brain could believe and follow a religion.
We really are just hairless dooky throwers XD
Without God our are thoughts nothing more then the arbitrary movement of neurons? Why would our thoughts be any more relevant to reason then the passing of wind? Never heard any naturalist give a good reason why reason matters in their view. Also to me the idea of an indefinite regress of events without a beginning of time is evident God exist. If you admit to there being a beginning to the universe you must understand nothing doesn't produce something. Theories about a multiverse or a collapsing and expanding universe fall victim to the same indefinite regress problem
@@alexjoneschannel reason is how we get airplanes and medicine.. religious dogma is how we get witch burnings.. you simple pig headed idioy
@@ChillAssTurtle That's no critique of what I proposed, just baseless anger. I'll reiterate what I said since you seemed not to understand. Why is the movement of neuron (brain activity) more meaningful to reason then the wind moving. Both are a result of seemingly arbitrary chaos of matter and and electrons colliding with each other. Basically I'm asking why does your thoughts matter if there is no objective standard to reason and truth. It seems to me in atheism human thoughts are no more meaningful then any other interaction, after all it's just matter and electric moving rather arbitrarily
@@alexjoneschannel why is brain chemistry more meaningful than the wind..? You domt even realize youre an idiot.. and thats pathetic XD
Dan is The Man
So you believe a human being over a god! You fooo
@@cabdll Foo Fighters?
It's a bit disrespectful to not name the other guy in the video description. Whether you agree with him or not, he's a human being worthy of being identified; even Dan Barker acknowledges his courage in participating. At least he's there, in the arena, being vulnerable, stating his position, not hiding. Like him or not, it's admirable. Most people wouldn't do it.
That's your cry-baby whine? Not respectful to name the religious progogandist spreading bullshit? Perpetuating nonsense? ... But you're worried about not being named?
@@DrMikeE100 Triggered a bit?
As soon as as they changed a testament I lossed all hope for faith. “God” wouldn’t change the rules for no reason or for anyone. Absolute bs
Must be more important issues in the world, for these individuals to address, than arguing about non existent beings. Absolutely no relevance in the 21st century. The rest of us have moved on.
I figured all of this out by the age of nine, the bible has a severe lack of correspondence with the real world, what I've always found absolutely astounding at the time and to this day was the fact that grown ups believe this stuff,
😄
YOu said it . Correspondence with the real world. people go to the bible because it gives people what they want . People of course don't want to grow up !
@@MrInterestingthings Absolutely. I just wish they would do something less dangerous with those urges. I recommend Lego.
It took me till I was 15 or 16. But I got clear and think scientifically. I still have a great love of history and archeology.
@@Sparkeycarp of course we must know history as to never repeat it, well not the bad parts anyway
Thank you Dan....the key word is canonised...
Dan Barker is both gracious and brilliant. A wonderful man.
Dan Barker is both ignorant and pathologically fixated on something that doesn't exist according to him. A joke of a man.
Wrong and you have no idea what is coming
@@jorgeabuauad To the contrary. We know PRECISELY what is coming for each of us.
@@yvesandrethevenot3489 no you don’t , I learn directly from witchcraft books and saw real paranormal phenomena, hell is real you are being warn , your life is a lie and no human can escape .
His taste in shirts leaves a lot to be desired ..!
That Christian guys presentation was an absolute frantic, jumbled mess. Painful.
I believe most long time believers are scared to say they are wrong ...as then and only then they would realise they have waisted all there life on this beautifull planet and just enjoying instead waiting for the end to go to heaven ...😮
The Old Testament is framed on the template of the hero’s journey. It’s as viable as Jason and the Argonauts. Just a different genre of story telling. People today lost what to do with them. Theists think they’re historical. I presume, as do others, that’s a fear based thing.
I am embarrassed to say that it took me until my 30s to finally apply critical thinking to my cherished beliefs. A God that takes joy in blood sacrifices and obsessed with foreskins is so odd to me now that I am free from Christianity.
It's hardly you fault, it's simply a matter of location, I live in England and never considered scriptures or the bible to have any actual truth, I never went to church, in fact I don't know anyone that did, had I lived somewhere that church and bible was a daily thing it's quite possible I would have believed some of it..... that's the trick fill young minds with crap and hope some stays put.
Congratulations bro. I never believed it since I was a kid. That benevolent God never made sense to me. But I hung on it ( attempting to convince myself every day ) because of fear to find myself one day in hell , being burned forever.
I was on in my 30 when browsing TH-cam; unexpectedly: a debate ( does God exist ) between Dan Brker and Kyle Butt popped up in my screen.
I watched the entire debate and I started yo read the bible ( stupidest book ever writen )
Yeeaaapp ! It did take long to draw the conclusion that no way such a stupid character can the architect of such complicated and sophisticated universe.
And , because I can't assimilate the two ; therefore: none of them exist for me.
Notice how that Christian presents his quotes on what looks like original, aged, parched pages when of course that's all fake; they weren't written in English! Why would he do that? Next he'll put choir music behind his speech. Sorry, that doesn't make your arguments any less ridiculous. Also talking really fast makes you sound desperate!
If the Old Testament is fiction. Then the New Testament is also fiction because the predictions of a coming saviour come from the Old Testament.
Says the pot to the potter!
🤣😂🤡🤯
As I write this, I have friends on the Ophel in Jerusalem who are literally digging up the Old Testament!
Why do people keep using the Bible to explain the Bible when they are doubting the truth of the Bible lol 🤔🙄
The Bible contradicts itself several hundreds of times?
Anyone can write down human experiences, principles and perceptions metaphorically ascribing it the word of the Lord or a higher external source or poweri.e. sin and human depravity. These are all perceptions of bronze and iron age men trying to understand the reality of the unpredictability and adverse behaviors of men, and the antinomy of nature.
@Seraphim Step. i think he is using the bible to disprove the bible, because debating with Christians myself, they use the bible to explain or prove the Bible.
Yes, it's amazing how 'Daniel' (who never existed) was able to predict all these things that had already happened by the mid 2nd Century, when The Book of Daniel was actually written. The guy arguing against is both shallow-minded, and dishonest.
The second speaker says no archeological evidence has contradicted anything in the old testament, but failed to provide anything to support this assertion. In fact the opposite is true.
As Dan said, cities referred to in the old testament didn't exist at the time. There is no evidence of millions of slaves living in Egypt, let alone exiting en masse and wandering in the desert, taking years to complete a journey that should take weeks, getting lost when all they had to do was follow the coast, etc. etc.
There has never been a global flood. And so on.
the numbers saying 603550 fighting men in Exodus 38 which implies a few million in total is impossible, it was merely hyperbolic, this goes on all the time where numbers in the old testament are deliberately inflated and excessively large, was just a literary device of the time. It surely was just a few thousand runaway slaves in total. As for the flood, there's loads of evidence. Fossils and numerous records of flood myths that have been found in practically all ancient cultures.
Well, it isn't true to begin with horrible or not. The problem the apologists, as I say repeatedly in my own vids, is they ignore the fact that many Hebrew stories are modified stories from other cultures. No one could logically argue that the flood story came from the ancient Sumerians for example. So when they "prove" a historical "fact" or relic that they claim gives legitimacy to the Old Testament they really aren't. Or they find a piece of evidence for events in history and make this grand leap that it proves the entire bible story. Like when a piece of evidence showed Hebrew slaves. I'm sure there were some Hebrew slaves. But there is nothing to show global slavery nor exodus of what would have been several million people. That is a fallacy and the type of fallacy the apologists use in most of their arguments. Cheers, DCF
What made this man a enemy of the cross. 1John 2:19 clearly speaks of this type if person. They went out from us but were not of us as now manifested. Sad pray that he repents and becomes a true believer.
The Christian spoke so fast to hope no one understood or questioned him so he could keep the fake illusion of his faith
That is what Jordan Peterson does as well.
He is on crack he spoke that fast. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Then_how_do_you_know_he_is_fake?_i_was_able_to_understand_him.
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
@@johnstewart4350 bullshit
All those fantastic incidents are exaggerations and hyperbole intended for a reason and never intended to be historically precise. The lessons in them are important. Hitting the rock produces water means that finding water seemed as impossible as it flowing from a rock but because of their "faith" the Israelites achieved it. I am sure they dug deep and hit an aquifer! My take is that it means never to give up hope even when everything seems lost. It does not help to think in any other way. I am not religious in the least. Is it even known how many times the Testaments were written and rewritten?
Nice Try.
I am quite convinced because I don't believe in talking serpents. But I do believe that the language was figuratively used.
The OT should be classified as a Dark Fantasy Horror
But really bad C grade pulp fiction with a Villain protagonist
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
Ww2 horrors were no fiction. Neither is Hebrew bible account fiction.
Christian Knowledge anticipates the mode what it means to be a Christian and how to live a Christian life. For all of the effort that we put into our preaching, we apparently find, to our disappointment, that our listeners are ignorant of the basics- a situation that reflects badly on the publicans.
With challenges to Reformed orthodoxy all around in the forms of Arminianism, deism, and other "fashionable schemes," it is vital for us to be well-armed with historical truth so that we can repel heterodox invasion. It may well be, too, that we hear, and try to lay the groundwork for a new revival among people.
Apostle Paul's admonition to the Christian Hebrews aptly suit our case. If we have a want of proficiency in the knowledge of Christian teachings. Like Paul, I'm not speaking of divine or experimental knowledge but of doctrinal knowledge that can be received by the Holy Spirit. Thus, when people have been able to digest "strong meat," my listeners are still babes who requires "milk of of the word that they can grow thereby."
In the Doctrine, we move progressively through four propositions. We begin with defining "divinity" as that which concerns the great things of religion and, more specifically, "the doctrine of living to God by Christ."
Given this definition, what kind of knowledge is to be sought first? Where does the Christian begin? Let us identify speculative, or intellectual, knowledge and practical knowledge, which abides in a sense of the heart.
Seek the former in order to gain the latter. Rather than being exclusive of each other, the two are integrally connected.
Speculative knowledge is the essential building block because, without it, the means of grace are in vain. Both require a certain fund of knowledge in the recipient to be effective.
Finally, Christians should endeavor to grow in this sort of knowledge; they should "make a business of it." God gave humankind the faculty of understanding for this very end.
The things of divinity are, in themselves, "things of superlative excellency" and therefore worthy of being sought. As such, they are of infinite concern to the Christian.
Even more, God has left us a guide in the form of his revealed Word and has appointed ministers to teach what is written there.
The Application brims with practical advice. Let me begin by telling you not to be content with a nominal amount of knowledge: "your catechism" and "as much of the principle of religion as is necessary to salvation."
Instead, seek to excel in knowledge of divinity. As is so often my strategy, the (AV), Authorized Version, also called the King James Version gives you all what is needed to be a spiritual elite saint with a humble pie in your face.
People should seek to edify one another and expand one another's knowledge. My own obsession with Scripture reading alone will become a regular theme in sermons on the street in Waikiki, while minister one to one, the knowledge of diverting in exuberant exhortation and Faith by Grace is the all in all.
My criticism of christians is that they talk too much of worldly matters, of public affairs and contentions. They would benefit from serious pursuit of Christian knowledge as a way of weaning them from the world. If all would only seek such knowledge, they would find it a "noble," "pleasant," and "useful" way.
I conclude with a list of practical directions on how to gain knowledge, including reading and searching the Scriptures, avoiding vain conversation, and seeking spiritual benefits.
"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Philippians 1:27).
In my opinion, the New Testament is even worse.
The tradition of taking the bible literally (or literalistically) is a relatively new one. There are section which everybody (even the most fervent evangelical) would take allegorical; e.g., I am the door. Where the border between allegory and literal meaning is, differs between different traditions (of which there are thousands). Dan's argument is good: even the most fervent Christians would agree that Mohamed was not riding into heaven on a winged horse. Belief in biblical inerrancy is a decision, not a necessity.
The energy of the second guy is a little panic-inducing.
This feels like a dog show pup running the course and bumping into everything
his delivery is stressful to listen too. besides heavy use of the filler "ah", I thought he was gonna hyperventilate.
perhaps some tch and alcohol to relax...
Dan is such a good orator. I wish I had half his ability to explain, and I’m a school teacher. I only stumbled upon some of his stuff last night. As, I think, your regular Aussie, I didn’t really have much religion around me growing up. Sometimes I have a bit of a look at some of the religious stuff on YT. I often think Au and the US and pretty similar, but boy… when it comes to religion 😳
Yes. Separation of church and state, except in USA. Gotta be religious to be a politician in USA. Senate and house vote according to their false or fake religion.
F the USA.
@@edwardgatey8301 I think most pms we’ve had have been religious (off the top of my head), but it almost never comes up. For instance a reference to god is rarely ever made during speeches, which seems to happen over there all the time. I think Julia Gillard would call herself atheist. See, even that term ‘atheist’, I only ever really hear when I watch American stuff. It just isn’t that big a deal here.
I live in Oklahoma . These Christians will stone ya ! They also will let criminals ,( local drug addicts who owe money to the courts). Terrorize women and people who don't believe. They do character assignation. Call you crazy to the community so people will fear you therefore you will receive no help.
I'm being terrorized by local druggies in my sml town in Oklahoma. Going through a bad divorce from a local rich attorney . I was starving had no running water or electric or natural gas for heat. I begged five different preachers for help. They all said ....they had no time and would pray for me.
Barker does a terrible job of interpreting the text. He also contradicts himself about 20 times. His rhetoric has nothing to do with the actual Hebrew bible, it's all an argument against his own past ignorance.
He hates the fact that he took it literally at one point, thus an intense bias is taking place.
Obviously it's mythology. But that doesn't mean "none of it is true" as he stated numerous times. And then he claims 51% is fiction or something.... which is it? Is "none of it true" or is " at least 51% fiction", those are mutually exclusive statements.
No, Barker isn't even debating the Christian guy, hes fighting his own former beliefs.
And there is certainly plenty in the Hebrew bible that is historical. Assyria existed and they sacked Canaan. Whether the details and time are true is irrelevant, because it's mythology. So did Babylon. So did Cyrus and Persia. These are just a few examples.
"Jew": means a person of the Kingdom of Judah. It doesn't mean "one who practices Judaism, the religion of the Kingdom of Judah" The Hebrew bible is simply the mythology of the Kingdom of Judah.
And yes, the Kingdom of Judah actually existed. So did the Davidic Kingdom, which there is evidence for. Not to say David himself was necessarily historical, all though he likely was. And the particulars of his life are probably not very accurate. The Tel Dan stelle from the 9th century BCE clearly mentions the Kingdom of David.
I wish Barker was less bias. But he really isn't.
If we all grew up believing cats can talk miraculously, and if you disagree you will burn forever, we’d be in the same position we are now.
ESCAPE THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL DAMNATION BY BELIEVING JESUS CHRIST CONQUERED DEATH AND HELL ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY BY SHEDDING HIS BLOOD, FORGIVING THE SINS OF THE BELIEVER THROUGH SAVING FAITH IN ETERNAL SALVATION. DO NOT TRUST IN YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS AND SELF HELP.
PRAY THIS PRAYER WITH ME:
JESUS, I NOW BELIEVE BY FAITH ALONE THAT YOU HAVE DIED FOR MY SINS AND WAS RESURRECTED THE THIRD DAY. SAVE MY SOUL AND BE MY LORD AND SAVIOUR.
@@johnstewart4350 oh do shut up, you insufferable moron
I would very much like to believe that cats can talk. Sadly, they don't. So the beauty of their meows has to suffice.
@@dasgelbevomei4739 The Triune God reads our minds because he created us, and we are guilty if not worship the glorious Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ, that we may escape eternal damnation in hell as dying in our sins, instead of Everlasting Joy in New Jerusalem !!
@Brendan Butler "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:18-20) Ps: No bot are filled with the Spirit of the Living Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ !!
It's so hard to debate the Religious; they usually get mad. Real mad... Listen to how angry that fellow is- he's on the verge of yelling at Dan.
I can't stand biblical literalists. "The Bible is literally true and factual because it is the word of God. And I know Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so."
My father in law was Dean of Religion for a college for nearly 50 years. PhD scholar with six languages to study the original materials and a truly amazing memory. His comment was clear: "Anyone who thinks the Bible is literally true is an idiot," followed by "It was never meant to be taken literally." Cheers.
"He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
@@johnstewart4350 So what? That kind of *literature* is used to justify unjustifiable arrogance. It is essentially no different from any of the other crap in there.
Bible is not true at all! If never meant to be literally taken then what was the intention?
The old testament is at least 5000 years old.How could anyone with a brain think it s exactly as writtern.I hate the horrid thing he said about God.It s so disrespectful and just plane mean but, god wanted people love and respect everyone and mistakes would teach you to be a better person.He was forming the life and morals of the human race not play evil games for fun.I am a jew who has read that Bible hundreds of times.Yes god could be mean but in a learning way to teach us.But basically He was a warm and living god who taught us to live with our enemies.He loved us so much we were his chosen people because in his eyes we were the best.He saved our male children in Egypt,freed us from slavery gave us Moses and the 10 commandments.,he gave us the arc of the covenant which produced manna a food that fed the Jews in the dessert for 40 year to isreal.I don t call that a miserable mean person.He was a teacher and a god he is the holy of holies and I love him.He also brought Christians a blessed leader as well as a teacher.How can you say such horrid thing about our holy wounderful God????
So it is about control then? Thanks for confirming.
Tribal Gods, were quite commonplace in ancient, and prehistoric times. During the Roman Empire, every family had a shrine devoted to their family deity. Each individual, likewise, could chose a single favorite deity to devote his worship to, and make sacrifices to. It was believed, that having the favor of a special deity, better guaranteed protection from that deity. Of course, the Ancient Hebrews likewise, had their special "Tribal God" that protected, and favored them over other tribes, and nations! These are the historic roots of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "Holy Books".
Jewish God: Tribal.
Christian God: Universal.
2 very different gods! Most Christians don't want to accept this though.
@@mattr.1887 Thank you for your understanding of this strange group of religious sects.
Thank god for Dan Barker
Wait a minute
Eh..... Barker doesn't really have clear insight into what he's talking about. He's arguing against his own previous ignorance. He obviously has contempt for his own past, his own ignorance that led him to taking it literally in the first place, which has lead to this quite fallacious argument. Of course both arguments are fallacious, the literalist interpretation and Barker's. But Barker has many facts wrong.
In one spot he claims 51% is not historical, and in others he claims "NONE of it is true"....... those statements contradict each other. Because this isn't a genuine examination of the Hebrew mythology, it's a rant by Barker about his own inability realize it was mythology sooner. And that contempt for it makes him completely biased. Just like the literalists love for it makes him biased.
There certainly is loose historical occurrence mixed with legend. It doesn't matter if they placed the Philistines in the wrong period, the Philistines existed and the general narrative reflects that. It really does not matter if they place it earlier than it really was.
I don't know why there is this need to either take it all as true or take none of it as true, when reality is somewhere in the middle.
This Christian guy would believe Harry Potter was real because it is mentioned everywhere and has coherence between each of the movies.
I just think of the tens of millions across the world who have been duped and deceived by the purveyors of religion over the millennia. How many wasted hours and lives have resulted from unquestioned believe in legends, fables and fairy stories? The greatest scam ever told!
I guess some people still need to see this. Insane.
The Christian guy is not debating he is just reading a book that someone wrote.
Yup, the bible is true because the bible says it's true... pure circular logic.
@@rsr789 Yes, God says, you MUST BELIEVE.
I don't believe the book of Daniel was written before all of its predictions
Perhaps rewritten to suit their claims
Yes I agree. The Christian believer was running on high speed autopilot. Rehashing talking points at breakneck speed. Lots of nothing said.
Ezekial mentions Daniel, but not Isaiah, Jeremiah, and even Elijah. Clearly, Daniel must be some ancient name that nobody can say anything about(mythologists do this all the time; they put them in obscure places and times so nobody can say anything about the mythology)
Mentioning Daniel, is like saying Jesus Christ is from Melchisedeck.
It's a lip smacking good time when the fidgeting apologist speaks, whom Dan demolished in his rebuttal.
i have not found one person, regardless of education, who can beat DB in a debate...the man has a laser logic that only a fool can deny...he simply makes the case...FAITH: pretending to know shit u just don't know...that's why it's called "faith"...but if u know for certain, it's knowledge, not faith.
The Holy Spirit speaks (1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 2:7); He demonstrates (1 Corinthians 2:4); He intercedes (Romans 8:26); He quickens (Romans 8:11); He gives utterance (Acts 2:4); He creates (Psalm 104:30);
He comforts (John 14:26); He sheds abroad the love of God in my heart (Romans 5:5); He renews (Titus 3:5). He is the Spirit of holiness (Romans 1:4), the Spirit of wisdom and understanding (Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17), the Spirit of truth (John 14:17);
The Spirit of knowledge (Isaiah 11:2), the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), the Spirit of glory (1 Peter 4:14), the Spirit of my God (1 Corinthians 6:11), the Spirit of the living God (II Corinthians 3:3), the good Spirit (Nehemiah 9:20), the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11), the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), the Spirit of life (Revelation 11:11), and the Spirit of His Son (Galatians 4:6).
Such is the Holy Spirit by whom John Stewart is sanctified (II Thessalonians 2:13), "the eternal Spirit" by whom "Christ offered Himself without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14). Such is the Holy Spirit by whom I am "sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30), the Spirit who makes me His habitation (Ephesians 2:22), who dwelleth in me (II Timothy 1:14), by whom I am kept looking to and looking for Christ and by whom I am made to "abound in hope" (Romans 15:13).
John Stewart ~ hbh@email.com
As an agnostic, i will be quoting your definition of FAITH. Well done!
@@johnstewart4350 As an agnostic, i will be quoting your definition of FAITH. Well done!
@@homeontherange733 There are three basic types of agnostics. The first says, 'I don't know, but I wish I did.' The second says, 'I don't know, and I don't care.' The last says, 'I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.'
The first type of agnostic is a searcher. If his searching is honest, he will find the answers he is looking for. No hungry heart ever goes unfed.
The second option is extremely foolish. This kind of agnostic is too lazy to search for answers. Indeed, he does not even want to be bothered with the questions.
To say, I don't know and don't care is to admit that you don't even know if not caring is wise. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. What would you say?
Your basis for rejecting my truth claims about God is your assumption of another truth about God. You are saying that God is such that he cannot be known by man.
You are claiming to know something about God. This claim to knowledge is inconsistent with your claim to be an agnostic. In order to have truth about God, it must be given us by God.
But in order to make the denial, you have to say something true about God. You have to say that God may be there, and if He is, He is the sort of being who is incapable of communicating truth to man.
Either that, or He is unwilling to. In either case, you are claiming to know something about God. Where did you get this knowledge about God? When Jesus Christ judges the world, that truth will be completely evident.
The one who will judge is the same one who died and rose again. That death was for sinners and is offered to sinners. Those sinners who reject to be forgiven cannot complain of unfairness when God does not apply it to them.
@@johnstewart4350 I know I don't know. I am open to to know. If there is a Good, that would be great. If there is not, then I'm good with that.
Just as Dawson, another individual who has the plums to say how it is. Bravo!
What is really sad is that this kind of debate is even necessary. The christian apologist in this video is pathetic.
This experience the last few weeks are like finding out Santa's fake all over again.... heart breaking. I wanted the truth though.. I won't start regretting any choices now.
I just went through this the last year as well. It’s pretty tough and you can get pretty angry or sad at times. A good resource for me was Recovering From Religion. Stay strong buddy!
When you begin to ponder the benefit of its promulgation and consider who benefits from the indoctrination, you will find there is no pain to hold on to. :)
@@agentfmib9206 I moved in with my uncle 600 miles from where i grew up in 2020 to start fresh in life and rekindle my relationship with God/Jesus. They were mormons so I knew it would be extreme religious environment but seeing my uncle sending his church $1,000/month while also giving them free labor as an accountant, and paying them to send his kids across country on a mission to recruit people to their church for 2 years made me start digging deeper into what was going on. I don't feel bad for myself. Them........ Mmmmm. I don't even know how to face them and go with it...
To me it was amazing not having to worry about going to hell anymore.
@@bradgaines I never really worried about it previously. My belief in a God was formed from a bias that said God loved me and therefore surely his hrand plan COULDNT end with ME in hell.
Religion is a huge thought experiment fortunately for you or anyone else that ever feared hell. You'll do what you're told by anyone who says your eternity rests in your servitude toward man, for God. Lol. Funny how that works. I'm so mad at myself.
The only miracle is the New York Mets winning game 6 of the 1986 world series I believe my cat talked that night!
Poor Tom, he is so deluded. He should have been extremely embarrassed at the end of this debate.
"Thank you Tom... you are a very likable person... and very brave."
That was like a compliment followed by a slap xD
@@dennisbuyse258 It was indeed.
Imagine arguing Zeus and Apollo are real gods...yes...christians should be embarrassed ...
The daniel prophecies are so general and non specific you can just fill in the blank with those
Sorry, that dog will not hunt. Try Daniel 9:24-27.
@@Bible_bits It still sounds very broad and the numbers are pretty much meaningless bruh. Why do you think that is prophecy?
@@zachio69 Good question - because it says that the Messiah will come and be killed, and that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed - Daniel 9:26; 9:27 is yet to come; there are 4 commandments by different kings re Jerusalem, but the one by Artaxerxes Longimanus fits the bill here; Sir Robert Anderson wrote a book about this, "The coming Prince".
@@Bible_bits This is what I'm reading in Daniel 9:26 - 27 "26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” " I'm not seeing anything about a messiah bruh. Are you sure this isn't just wishful thinking?
@@zachio69 9:26 - "...shall Messiah be cut off..." - KJV
Tom should watch Seth Andrews video called "How Christianity made me talk like an idiot."
Almost all scholars say that the Book of Daniel was written during the Maccabean period because the events described closely follow what was happening at the time.
Name just one scholar? Please provide actual footage or falsifiable evidence? Opinions don’t count.
Really? My gawd holy crap!
@DrakenViggen
"Actually, homeslice, it's on YOU to prove your point, not the other way around."
What point did @Paul Lever make?
As far as I can tell he just asked for evidence of the claim made by @Pat Downs.
So no, homeslice, I'm afraid you have your burden of proof backwards.
@@paullever2085 The Maccabean period was 167-160 BC. Collins, John J. (1984). Daniel: With an Introduction to Apocalyptic Literature places the authorship of Daniel in the 160s. FFS, this isn't rocket science.
@@deadly_dave OK,. So Where is the evidence? WELL, where IS IT? You don't have ANY!
"It is from the Bible that man has learned Cruelty, Rapine, Genocide and Slavery for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.”
It would be more consistent that we call [the Bible] the work of a demon than the word of God.
In the entire first Christian century Jesus was not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! references."
"Jesus Christ Was never Exist "
@@marketandeat7828 Got evidence? No God and jesus are most probably man made.
Hate to tell you this …cruelty comes from man the way men treat men because they’re selfish self-centered narcissists and fallen and arrogant just like you… Think about that tonight instead of your bullshit. Seems like you should study a little deeper.
@@marketandeat7828 Give me the EVIDENCE that this happened and the EVIDENCE of your ‘God’ I’ll wait. 😂🤣😂
Josephus?