I'll be honest, despite the mistakes Forstall made and the friction he generated, his team did legitimately create some of the greatest pieces of software ever. iOS 6 is my all time favorite version of iOS and for good reason. I have never used another version of iOS that was as polished and stable as 6 was. You can use it on any device it supported and it worked flawlessly. Maps even today on iOS 6 works flawlessly, because it still gets updates every time Apple updates its map data. After his team got iOS off the ground, they really started doubling down in system performance and stability, which was ironically completely derailed in iOS 7 and honestly wasn't really resolved until iOS 10. I have an iPad 4 on iOS 6.0.1, it's factory firmware. I have only seen one bug with that device and it's a bug where the volume slider in the music app sometimes does not function. Restarting the application fixes this, but it's a bug nevertheless. I used it for many many years and for that to be the only bug I ever saw is nothing short of incredible. I've shown that iPad to my grandmother before who is using a much newer iPad on post iOS 7 firmwares and her mind was blown when I showed her what iOS 6 looked like and how easy it was to use compared to her iPad.
@@jeremy_yzy1275 Scott and his team are the reason we can talk about it. It would've just been ipod with touch controls. Post 7 implemented control center though which is huge.
iOS 7 was made in a rush on hardware that wasn't really intended to do what it did in terms of visual effects. The book after steve actually described it the best where the solution might've not been to completely give Jony Ive control but allow him to have more input.
Forstall deserves credit as he saved Apple. He built the Next Step OS which was sold to Apple and become the foundation for Apple OS and that became the foundation for IOS. He's the brainchild behind all the OS innovations and deserves tremendous credit. Honestly not sure if Apple would have succeeded without him.
Always liked Jonny Ive, but never liked his flat, boring iOS 7 and everything after that designs. Always thought he should have stuck with hardware. Scott Forstall had the right approach software design.
Tim Cook got rid of both Scott Forstall and then cancelled Jonny Ive and basically all the old guard are gone. IMO Scott Forstall was far more valuable to Next and Apple than Jonny Ives. What did Jonny Ives create that someone else couldn't hardware design wise. Seriously.
He had this way of making the software magical. Like the clock app in widgets used to actually tick with a bounce, and the notes app used to toss the paper into the pin directly. It's these little details that made apple, apple.
It’s not surprise iOS went to crap once Scott was fired. iOS 11 was woeful, in fact I’m still having a bug with the EQ settings changing randomly that I had in iOS 9, we are on iOS 17 now ffs. First thing Cook did was cancel the 12 day Christmas give away, then the prices went up especially outside the US & then the lecturing began. I remember being the first person at work to own an iPhone, now when my current device is done I will likely go elsewhere. Who made the decision to end the usage of Google Maps? How much time was given to develop their own in house app? I certainly wouldn’t apologise for being pushed to develop something from the ground up no doubt without any real QA. Him signing that letter would be an insult to his team who probably worked their asses off to get it as ready as they could. Richard Williamson who was head of the mapping team also got the chop, probably for also not signing the letter. I would rather work for Scott than Tim. Out of interest, has anyone else been fired for any of the other controversies since that point? Has the person who put the 20v power rail next to CPU V-core (meaning one drop of liquid fries your CPU) been fired for poor design? Or whoever chose not to have any liquid protection? Who decided that the SSD which has limited writes should be soldered onto the main board so it can’t be replaced or data recovered if the main board fails? All these things and they fired him for not signing letter, says more about Cook to be fair.
A map is an extremely difficult thing to build. For the first version, it wasn’t that bad. Also antenna-gate wasn’t really a software problem. They should have used software to present it better to the users but then again you cannot guess it before it’s released and the problem is obvious.
You can say it wasn't that bad, and I don't know squat about building an app like that. But I can say from my experience that when Maps was new, it got me lost to two different locations in Kansas City in a couple of days. That was enough that I used Google Maps for a few years until I heard they were collecting data from apple vans or whatever and when I got an Apple Watch 3 is when I gave Apple Maps another try. So to me is was a big deal.
@@joshsimpson79 I agree with you that it wasn’t right. I’m merely saying that the quality of Apple map as the FIRST version wasn’t bad from the point of their technical capabilities, hence Scott didn’t show any lack of his qualities. I was involved with a map project which didn’t see the light finally, so speaking from experience. Google added turn by turn navigation 3 years after the first release. I don’t know how it was thought. But being as a competitor, Apple had to match the features.
The difference between Jobs & Forstall, Forstall is an actual software engineer! Jobs had none of that and was just a visionary businessman with ideas.
He's definitely more passionate than Cook, but every personality comes as a "package". And more explosive Forstall could hurt Apple's long term effort.
I love when a random guy on YT calls one of the best and greatest guy at Apple, without spending a single minute with him. Scott is a genius and I was sad when he left the company. A year later Apple introduced the flat design. He was simply not responsible for the Map project. He led iOS project and there was a small team who worked on the Maps app. Apple was running out of time and thats why Maps looked and felt like a public beta. In many ways Scott was right.
I still wish he was on the team. That friction is probably why we got really cool stuff in exchange for some really bad ideas. Now everyone is all lovey-dovey and everything is just incrementally better over time :\
I largely prefer android, mainly because up to now I have enjoyed things like usable file management, memory card expandability, and headphone jacks. But to this day I love Skeumorphic design and wish it would make a comeback. I’m great full to Scott for that, and when Jony introduced flat design even android apps followed suit.
Software engineers like him do the hard work and Business men like steven job, take credit. what a hypocritical world, we don't get recognized at all but only insults and TH-cam videos like this. he built iphone and ipad from ground and he is paid like this
I thought he got thrown under the bus on the Maps thing. The problem was the hyperbolic, self-congratulatory, grandiose language the whole of Apple used, where on the release of Maps, a softly softly, it's early days, this is a huge exercise, marketing was needed... but it's not like anyone else at Apple was less guilty of the same crime "We're so brave to remove ports" "Our product is so intentioned". Where Forstall really screwed up was the iOS UX design and not recognising the limits of his competencies.
Yes, Maps where the last drop for Cook to formally throw Scott out, but the whole situation was boiling for a while even when Steve was still around. What do you mean by "Where Forstall really screwed up was the iOS UX design" ? He and Steve built original skeuomorphic design...
@@ariffin128 Under Tim Cook's leadership, he has not brought out anything new and revolutionary. After moving manufacturing to India, has managed to offload investors like Warren Buffet away from investing in Apple. Where's the Apple car ? After spending so much time and money on building it, he decided to shelve it. Tim Cook has not done anything right after Steve Job's death. He's just there to suck in Steve Job's creation and hard work. Apple needs a leader who can create revolutionary products that can continue to lead others, but not copy others.
Maybe there is, but is not worth the Apple brand. All the updates are just spec bumps over spec bumps, make their hardware more lux. But in reality, there is no fun experience anymore. Apple now is just another tech company.
Scott Forstall contributions to Apple was far more valuable than Jonny Ives IMO. Forstall designed Next Step OS which was the foundation to Apple OS which then was repurposed for iPhone. What did Jonny Ives contribute? A rectangular phone, skinny macbooks and cube shaped power mac. Okay they look nice but anyone else could have designed that. But that being said I don't think either should be CEO as neither are visionaries and that's true of Tim Cook as well who is a logistics guy. Steve Jobs was a one of a kind. That being said Tim Cook deserves credit as post Steve Jobs he knew he wasn't the creative type so he consulted with others and listened and have grown the company with new offerings like streaming TV, music and more.
@@jonfreeman9682 It's true Steve Jobs was one of a kind. There will never again be a visionary leader like him at Apple, who isn't afraid to create revolutionary products at Apple. RIP Steve Jobs.
Scott may have been an "asshole", but so was Steve Jobs. I think he is much more of a visionary than Tim Cook ever will be, of course Apple Maps was a disaster and like you said nobody was there to protect him from this mistake like there was historically.
Agreed Fil. I personally liked Scott much more than Cook. That's said, Apple needs a calm head to manage so many teams and Cook's style is stronger here long term. I think.
in the books, Scott possibly might've just got into beef with upper management. He seems friendly and pretty well liked as a boss in creative selection.
There was no way to send a note. SRE Live, your content is good, but with your pronunciation it can be a struggle to follow exactly what you are saying sometimes. Slow down a bit, find your own rhythm (no need to imitate others) or simplify your vocabulary. eg. Not everyone knows what a jeweler's loupe is and you could have just started off by saying "he used a mini magnifying glass" to get the point across with simpler vocabulary. Just honest feedback, the content is good.
You know that Scott Forstall can sue you on this video ? you can't call him an asshole. I'm personally forwarding this video to him. Good luck in court !!
I'll be honest, despite the mistakes Forstall made and the friction he generated, his team did legitimately create some of the greatest pieces of software ever. iOS 6 is my all time favorite version of iOS and for good reason. I have never used another version of iOS that was as polished and stable as 6 was. You can use it on any device it supported and it worked flawlessly. Maps even today on iOS 6 works flawlessly, because it still gets updates every time Apple updates its map data. After his team got iOS off the ground, they really started doubling down in system performance and stability, which was ironically completely derailed in iOS 7 and honestly wasn't really resolved until iOS 10.
I have an iPad 4 on iOS 6.0.1, it's factory firmware. I have only seen one bug with that device and it's a bug where the volume slider in the music app sometimes does not function. Restarting the application fixes this, but it's a bug nevertheless. I used it for many many years and for that to be the only bug I ever saw is nothing short of incredible. I've shown that iPad to my grandmother before who is using a much newer iPad on post iOS 7 firmwares and her mind was blown when I showed her what iOS 6 looked like and how easy it was to use compared to her iPad.
ur just old buddy, new interface is way better
@@jeremy_yzy1275 Scott and his team are the reason we can talk about it. It would've just been ipod with touch controls. Post 7 implemented control center though which is huge.
iOS 7 was made in a rush on hardware that wasn't really intended to do what it did in terms of visual effects. The book after steve actually described it the best where the solution might've not been to completely give Jony Ive control but allow him to have more input.
@@jeremy_yzy1275you just don’t know what’s good. Flat was way better? What are you eating?
Forstall deserves credit as he saved Apple. He built the Next Step OS which was sold to Apple and become the foundation for Apple OS and that became the foundation for IOS. He's the brainchild behind all the OS innovations and deserves tremendous credit. Honestly not sure if Apple would have succeeded without him.
Always liked Jonny Ive, but never liked his flat, boring iOS 7 and everything after that designs. Always thought he should have stuck with hardware. Scott Forstall had the right approach software design.
..said literally no one; ever.
Tim Cook got rid of both Scott Forstall and then cancelled Jonny Ive and basically all the old guard are gone. IMO Scott Forstall was far more valuable to Next and Apple than Jonny Ives. What did Jonny Ives create that someone else couldn't hardware design wise. Seriously.
He had this way of making the software magical. Like the clock app in widgets used to actually tick with a bounce, and the notes app used to toss the paper into the pin directly. It's these little details that made apple, apple.
Exactly, the clock hand bounce made me fall in love with apple products
Scott Forstall is the kind of software engineer that you would hang out with
He's still a genius for early OS X Aqua, iconic user interface.
he absolutely made a massive investment into what Apple is today.
If he returned to Apple I'd give up all my Android/Windows devices and return to Apple everything.
Ah, I'd love to see him back, he'd really put a fresh spin on Craig's iOS part of the work.
He is the next Apple CEO... When mediocre Tim leaves his mediocre Apple creation
It’s not surprise iOS went to crap once Scott was fired. iOS 11 was woeful, in fact I’m still having a bug with the EQ settings changing randomly that I had in iOS 9, we are on iOS 17 now ffs. First thing Cook did was cancel the 12 day Christmas give away, then the prices went up especially outside the US & then the lecturing began. I remember being the first person at work to own an iPhone, now when my current device is done I will likely go elsewhere. Who made the decision to end the usage of Google Maps? How much time was given to develop their own in house app? I certainly wouldn’t apologise for being pushed to develop something from the ground up no doubt without any real QA. Him signing that letter would be an insult to his team who probably worked their asses off to get it as ready as they could. Richard Williamson who was head of the mapping team also got the chop, probably for also not signing the letter.
I would rather work for Scott than Tim.
Out of interest, has anyone else been fired for any of the other controversies since that point? Has the person who put the 20v power rail next to CPU V-core (meaning one drop of liquid fries your CPU) been fired for poor design? Or whoever chose not to have any liquid protection? Who decided that the SSD which has limited writes should be soldered onto the main board so it can’t be replaced or data recovered if the main board fails? All these things and they fired him for not signing letter, says more about Cook to be fair.
Agreed, There was more to the story than simply "Forstall F'ed up the Maps" cover story.
A map is an extremely difficult thing to build. For the first version, it wasn’t that bad. Also antenna-gate wasn’t really a software problem. They should have used software to present it better to the users but then again you cannot guess it before it’s released and the problem is obvious.
Yes, building maps is a massive project. Scott is an extreme personality, in so many ways.
You can say it wasn't that bad, and I don't know squat about building an app like that. But I can say from my experience that when Maps was new, it got me lost to two different locations in Kansas City in a couple of days. That was enough that I used Google Maps for a few years until I heard they were collecting data from apple vans or whatever and when I got an Apple Watch 3 is when I gave Apple Maps another try. So to me is was a big deal.
@@joshsimpson79 I agree with you that it wasn’t right. I’m merely saying that the quality of Apple map as the FIRST version wasn’t bad from the point of their technical capabilities, hence Scott didn’t show any lack of his qualities. I was involved with a map project which didn’t see the light finally, so speaking from experience. Google added turn by turn navigation 3 years after the first release. I don’t know how it was thought. But being as a competitor, Apple had to match the features.
According to after Steve, it was mostly Phil Schiller rushing it and getting into a fight with tom tom who was to blame.
If it HAD been a software problem, Apple could have fixed it properly with a software update. They couldn't.
The difference between Jobs & Forstall, Forstall is an actual software engineer! Jobs had none of that and was just a visionary businessman with ideas.
yes, Jobs while being technical wasn't an engineer like Scott.
And Jobs is someone who is the best at running the company while engineer like Scott, isnt.
Jobs knew some stuff really well but didn't really go on the ground level. He was an architect
i think the dynamics between him, jony and other top guns deserves a movie made, especially considering how it influenced the design hits of apple
He has passion, he is passionate the same as Steve Jobs. Tim Cook is on a comfortable zone that lacks innovation
He's definitely more passionate than Cook, but every personality comes as a "package". And more explosive Forstall could hurt Apple's long term effort.
I grew up with Scott. He is not an asshole. Quite the opposite!! He was a loyal and brilliant software developer for Apple.
I love when a random guy on YT calls one of the best and greatest guy at Apple, without spending a single minute with him. Scott is a genius and I was sad when he left the company. A year later Apple introduced the flat design.
He was simply not responsible for the Map project. He led iOS project and there was a small team who worked on the Maps app. Apple was running out of time and thats why Maps looked and felt like a public beta.
In many ways Scott was right.
I have an ipod touch 5th generation and never update it until now. And don't connect it either in the internet. Just to keep the old good app design.
I still wish he was on the team. That friction is probably why we got really cool stuff in exchange for some really bad ideas. Now everyone is all lovey-dovey and everything is just incrementally better over time :\
MacOS Leopard and Snow Leopard were their best. Everything since then has been dog shit.
I largely prefer android, mainly because up to now I have enjoyed things like usable file management, memory card expandability, and headphone jacks. But to this day I love Skeumorphic design and wish it would make a comeback. I’m great full to Scott for that, and when Jony introduced flat design even android apps followed suit.
GREAT PERSON! Made so many marvelous software!!! Really wish he could back to Apple
YESS!!
Because I hate Apple with a passion, I'm glad Scott Forstall is no longer with Apple.
@@thuydoan7496 says the same guy that made a comment saying forstall should be ceo 💀💀💀
@@OakBlox Apple no longer deserve Forestall the moment they kicked him out.
@@OakBlox Apple no longer deserve Forestall the moment they kicked him out.
The bigger they are the harder they fall
Great flow and content! Bravo👏🔥
Big thank you as alwayss! :)
8:19 Forstall / Ive friction, power struggle 9:53 2011 iOS 6 Apple Maps debacle 10:37 Tim Cook fired Forstall apologized for Maps mess
Software engineers like him do the hard work and Business men like steven job, take credit. what a hypocritical world, we don't get recognized at all but only insults and TH-cam videos like this. he built iphone and ipad from ground and he is paid like this
nobody argues with his achievement. He's done a lot.
I miss Scott, unfortunately Jobs was able to be an asshole until he was able to resurrect Apple with the iPod
same, I wish Scott was at Apple.
Forstall will always be a legend.
100% he will be
A well produced and researched video Sergey. Keep up the good work!
thank you David!
Awesome thanks for the video!
well, Steve fired Tony Fadell live in front of everyone when he deleted his contact in the iPhone presentation
My dad went to high school with Scott Forstall
I thought he got thrown under the bus on the Maps thing. The problem was the hyperbolic, self-congratulatory, grandiose language the whole of Apple used, where on the release of Maps, a softly softly, it's early days, this is a huge exercise, marketing was needed... but it's not like anyone else at Apple was less guilty of the same crime "We're so brave to remove ports" "Our product is so intentioned". Where Forstall really screwed up was the iOS UX design and not recognising the limits of his competencies.
Yes, Maps where the last drop for Cook to formally throw Scott out, but the whole situation was boiling for a while even when Steve was still around.
What do you mean by "Where Forstall really screwed up was the iOS UX design" ?
He and Steve built original skeuomorphic design...
@@sergeyrosslive Yes, and by that time iOS looked like old-fashioned dogshit and had done so for several years.
@@jeffreychongsathienlol iOS 7 was a dog shot
i honestly feel bad for him
this video was soooo good and interesting didnt know about the iphoto prototype at the bar story !!
So we lost skeuomorphism because of his ego🤧😭 when he did do something wrong
When is he back ? 😢
Scott Forstall should have been the next CEO of Apple, Not Tim Cook. There is no innovation under Tim Cook.
no innovation what a funny guy 😂please don’t ever comment anything you don’t know about apple under tim cook
@@ariffin128 Under Tim Cook's leadership, he has not brought out anything new and revolutionary. After moving manufacturing to India, has managed to offload investors like Warren Buffet away from investing in Apple. Where's the Apple car ? After spending so much time and money on building it, he decided to shelve it. Tim Cook has not done anything right after Steve Job's death. He's just there to suck in Steve Job's creation and hard work. Apple needs a leader who can create revolutionary products that can continue to lead others, but not copy others.
Maybe there is, but is not worth the Apple brand. All the updates are just spec bumps over spec bumps, make their hardware more lux. But in reality, there is no fun experience anymore. Apple now is just another tech company.
Scott Forstall contributions to Apple was far more valuable than Jonny Ives IMO. Forstall designed Next Step OS which was the foundation to Apple OS which then was repurposed for iPhone. What did Jonny Ives contribute? A rectangular phone, skinny macbooks and cube shaped power mac. Okay they look nice but anyone else could have designed that. But that being said I don't think either should be CEO as neither are visionaries and that's true of Tim Cook as well who is a logistics guy. Steve Jobs was a one of a kind. That being said Tim Cook deserves credit as post Steve Jobs he knew he wasn't the creative type so he consulted with others and listened and have grown the company with new offerings like streaming TV, music and more.
@@jonfreeman9682 It's true Steve Jobs was one of a kind. There will never again be a visionary leader like him at Apple, who isn't afraid to create revolutionary products at Apple. RIP Steve Jobs.
AMAZING VIDEO
Scott may have been an "asshole", but so was Steve Jobs. I think he is much more of a visionary than Tim Cook ever will be, of course Apple Maps was a disaster and like you said nobody was there to protect him from this mistake like there was historically.
Agreed Fil. I personally liked Scott much more than Cook. That's said, Apple needs a calm head to manage so many teams and Cook's style is stronger here long term. I think.
in the books, Scott possibly might've just got into beef with upper management. He seems friendly and pretty well liked as a boss in creative selection.
it's not uncommon for higher ups to take shots or try to remove who they think could be future ceo.
Damn
There was no way to send a note. SRE Live, your content is good, but with your pronunciation it can be a struggle to follow exactly what you are saying sometimes. Slow down a bit, find your own rhythm (no need to imitate others) or simplify your vocabulary. eg. Not everyone knows what a jeweler's loupe is and you could have just started off by saying "he used a mini magnifying glass" to get the point across with simpler vocabulary. Just honest feedback, the content is good.
thank you Will - noted. Excellent feedback - appreciate it. I've changed my approach to scripting and simplified it a lot for latest vids.
You know that Scott Forstall can sue you on this video ? you can't call him an asshole.
I'm personally forwarding this video to him.
Good luck in court !!