GT7 does such a good job helping the player fall in love with the small intricacies of machines that after watching me play a lot, my fiance that didnt care about cars at all, now has her favorites. She likes the 90s japanese cars with the pop up headlights and smooth streamlined interiors. She now enjoys the big curves of the 60s and 70s muscle cars and the unique goofy characteristics of experimental cars. GT7 managed to turn her into a Miata fan, with a specefic taste in cars, due to its beauty and educational interactions alone. She knows a fair bit now, for somebody that when i met her 5 years ago, couldnt care less. Now when we drive i hear her say "whats that? Is that a miata? Is that a _____, or ______?". It converted her into a car person subliminally and that is amazing.
I believe that the problem with triple A racing games like Forza Horizon is that they´re trying too much to please people that doesn´t like cars, they transformed Forza into a action game to collect cars, almost like the Fast n Furious franchise. Apparently I have some love with number 4, because my favorite racing games are Forza Motorsport 4 (why the hell they never brought Fujimi Kaido back???), Gran Turismo 4 and Ridge Racer 4.
If anything, I'd argue that the PC version of NFS: Porsche Unleashed was one of the rare Western racing games that somehow managed to replicate the unique vibe and intricate details of Japanese racing games. Notably with the accurately detailed car models for its time, the Evolution and Factory Driver mode that was immersive enough to give Gran Turismo a run for its money, the museum-esque Porsche Chronicle where we can learn the history of the Porsche marque, and its also has the race finish jingles that plays differently depending on the finishing position.
Oh 100 percent agree there! I love the evolution mechanic especially just because it's so unique. I want another game that has a chronological focus on the cars.
nice to see nfs porsche unleashed being brought up! currently trying to finish the evolution mode of it, I had played it as a kid and decided to download it again for the nostalgia, turns out it's as fun as it used to be to the younger me
GT will tell you the stories behind every car, how every car works, how to drive faster and the importance of cars in human history. And forza they just give you cars and race
When it comes to atmospheres in racing games, the ones I like are: - Rage Racer and Ridge Racer Type 4 - Rage is sort of technological in its presentation while 4 does a neat clean and minimalistic look for its menus while the races have splendid use of washed out colours and a fantastic jazz fusion edm soundtrack. - Wipeout 3 and HD/Fury - Unique futuristic sci-fi setting with a hint of the professional tone you'd see in F1. 3 goes for more clean minimalism while HD/Fury is sort of simple concept art mixed with futuristic details. - Midnight Club 2 - A moody neon lit trance music album in the form of a difficult arcade racing game. Also has some hip hop, but who cares. - Midnight Club Los Angeles - The detail of the interiors, which includes a clock in some that shows the game world's time. Being able to modify these interiors to your liking and then cruising down these fantastically detailed streets with loads of traffic. You can even hold the gas lightly to make the car automatically match the speed limit. That's that immersion this game gets fantastically. - Test Drive Unlimited - Calm fantasy of being some rich person on a big island, visiting actual car shops and choosing the look of the car based on real options such shops would provide. It may be a racing game, but it's very laidback feeling, wanting you to enjoy the ride. - Need for Speed Underground 2 - Somewhat stylized look with glossy surfaces, unique shading and the car models too have a strange plasticky look that adds to the mood. - Need for Speed Prostreet - The detail of every festival makes them feel properly lively and believable as settings. Seeing your car in the environment with people moving around, the festival announcer speaking with that specific kind of reverb to the voice to make it sound like it's coming from a distant speaker, the whole context in general. I love it. - Colin McRae Rally 2.0 - The sort of minimal yet electronic device look. Simple shapes and symbols while industrial music plays. It seems somewhat cool, like it wants you to feel like you're about to get into something that is intimidating, yet you will be part of the thing that feels intimidating. - Dirt Rally - Clear, mundane reality without any fancy tricks. Just nature as it is, cars as they are with the details that belong without adding some filters that would make the reality look better than how it actually is. Honest mundanity. - Gran Turismo 2 - Menus filled with colours but also black spaces everywhere, creating this contrast between the information, the attention grabbing visuals and the darkness that reminds you of the space limitations of the system. That constant visual contrast creates a very specific look that creates its own fascinating feeling. The cars are real, they have real information, but the visuals are never complete, can never be complete, letting the fantasy fill in the rest. Also the prog rock jazz fusion to add laidback yet bouncy mood. Classy but not too serious. - Gran Turismo 4 - This game meanwhile goes for a mix of lounge music and edm to make the presentation come across as even more sophisticated,. The race previews still give that arcade vibe of being presented the race to get you interested, yet the menus are clean and quite sterile when it comes to car settings. No flashing lights, no fancy colours. Just clean sterility with class. - Tokyo Xtreme Racer Drift 2 - The world feels properly lived in, populated by a massive variety of people who enjoy the same hobby as you do for different reasons, and all of them together form the overall idea of this whole sport. The fact that you meet them personally in parking spaces adds to the immersion. - Cruis'n World and Hydro Thunder (Arcade) - Eyecatching menu visuals, both wanting to create a visually fun experience to get you interested as you choose the track and vehicle. Both aim for a different feel, but that way they want to make you care from the start is effective, communicating its own style and mood right from the get to to sell itself for you.
To the Codemasters games I'd add DiRT 1, 2 and 3. All of them pretty classy, with the music stopping when the race starts, telling you "This is getting serious" in a way. 1 had some cool looking menus, very flat and stylish, still with some tangibility with the shiny metallic stripes and the animated loadings and all. The list of stage being a pyramid also felt real good. 2 went the opposite way, with full-on tangibility, forcing the player to move in a 3D van, to look at the map of events and all. And there was always someone talking to you. And there were a ton of stamps everywhere! 3 kept the stamps but is more reminiscent of 1: super stylish, abstract presentation, with the current car being front and center. And the whole UI revolved around triangles (up to the "i"'s dot being one) with the tetrahedrons unfolding to present the events, or the whole thing turning gold when complete. Stylish and clever.
So glad you brought a midnight club 2. I was gonna say there’s no way he’s gonna bring up atmosphere and not talk about that game. Kudos to you my friend. Thanks for the sweet write up!
@@Raptorsified I don't find its atmosphere that interesting. Just a very usual 2000's tone that tries to appeal to the youth that likes action and rock music. You'd see this sort of tone in tv shows and cartoon channels of that era a lot. Paradise has some semblance of tranquility to its map due to how sparsely populated it is. All of these detailed streets and roads, yet barely any traffic outside of the strange crash mode. Makes one feel strangely isolated. I guess Burnout 2 is neat in how much it creates an arcade cabinet feel with its UI design. Revenge has that grungy industrial look I guess. I dunno, I don't see much in the Burnout franchise when it comes to an atmosphere.
I think there's also a distinction in vision between Japanese and western console racing games. Japanese racing games love to put you in the seat of a role, they built up the games starting from a Japanese Role-play perspective. What do I mean by this? For example, in Gran Turismo you are an up and coming "professional racer", so you start small racing in rookie competitions until you eventually participate in purpose built race cars for "big deal" events (Sega GT, Enthusia, R: Racing Evolution also use this formula). This gets even more prevalent when you look at something like Racing Lagoon, the ChoroQ series, and especially games made by Genki. In Shutokou Battle/Tokyo Xtreme Racer you are in the role of a broke but skilled street racer who became the best in the whole expressway, becoming a legend. It's focused more on the "street racer life sim" aspects more than it ever has on actual racing technicalities or mechanics, the AI are dumb as hell and blatantly cheats, the gameplay loop is repetitive beyond believe, the handling physics are not exactly great to say mildly; but it is everything else surrounding the racing itself that became the main appeal, their dedication on giving every single rival some flavor text description (not too dissimilar from Dark Souls) just to give an impression that they are real people that you can meet, menu and music that give a particular _vibe,_ the attention to detail on the car models and their engine type, having real life places that you can actually visit just to sell you on the immersion and fantasy to role-play in, etc. It's a microcosm of the Japanese approach, the thing that you alludes to in the video, of how they care about the whole *experience* rather than just the sum of it's part.
I love these Japanese racing games you have listed and much more, this is also probably due to the same reasons you listed and because how many of them catch those looks/times of the 90s to 2000s even with the music.
@shira_yone, et al, you all forgot a little trilogy of video games that is called the Test Drive: Unlimited Trilogy (1, 2, and Solar Crown). You want to talk about role playing in racing games, then you all need to talk about those games as well.
Sega GT on Xbox was so overlooked, great racing game and preferred it to Gran Turismo for a few reasons. The best example is had a friend who loved GT3 play Sega GT with his favorite car, he proceeded to floor the gas and bounce off every corner and came in first place. Then he was shocked and upset that he lost all his winnings to pay for repairs because of his poor driving.
"meet my friend, Bizarre Creations" "oh cool, what's his talent" "being British and making cool racing games that no one appreciates until it's too late" "oh nice"
"Both games (GT7 and FM8) want you to grind and its fucking lame", TRUE LOL But here is the issue, if you have no progression, you just get Forza Horizon 5 which hands you the hyper cars immediately and you have all the money in the world to do what you want- nothing feels earned and there isn't any accomplishment for doing the events other than just to check a box that you did them.
RRU was actually planned to be an original IP before Namco stepped in because Split/Second and Blur flopped. There's also another unrelated game by Bugbear that had a similar style called "Crash Club".
I seriously want Ridge Racer to come back. I’m tired of sim racing being the only way to play be it a Japanese or western developer. I’ve never been interested in Forza, Gran Turismo just isn’t what it used to be. I just want that difficult yet simple and satisfying arcade style of fun back. Sure Namco gave us two games on PS Plus but I don’t think scraps of the past are gonna satisfy us forever.
SEGA GT 2022 holds a special place in my heart. I used to play it religiously on my OG Xbox for hours on the weekends when I finished all of my homework. Mind you, I was only 9 or 10 years old and experiencing the amazing soundtrack was an absolute vibe.
Being from the 80's, my favorite racing games (Arcade and Simulation) so far were : - Need For Speed 2, 3 and 4 (1997-1999) on PC - Burnout 3 - Project Gotham Racing - Gran Turismo 4 - Toca - NFS Most Wanted - Motorstorm 1 & Pacific Rift - Race Driver Grid (2008) - Blur - Forza 3 - NFS Shift - Project Cars I played these games so far. Many other games were great yet I have no more this attraction : Great video man!
@t3hgir OH boy, I forgot about this gem of a game although I haven't had the chance to savour it, (My PC was crap at that time), it was one my best friend games
@@samisaker7008 , you should give the PC modded version of Test Drive: Unlimited a go, and, no, it is not the same as the Test Drive: Platinum that is on the Microsoft Xbox 360, but it is called Test Drive: Platinum nonetheless.
Blur is ultimately a kart racer that dares to have an interesting physics model. But at the end of eth day, it's more like Mario Kart, Crash Team Racing, or even WipEout.
i'll say this: gran turismo will make you love your first car. there's nothing better than starting your game with a toyota mr2 g-limited in gt4 than starting your fm3 playthrough with a ford fiesta thats just... given to you, not even purchased. but yeah gran turismo's events can be a pain, especially the SPEEDSTER TROPHY.
Old GT true, but not the new ones. Gt 6 you have 0 zero choice about your starter car, forcing you to use a Honda Fit. GT7 gives you a false choice since your first task is to earn all 3 starter cars, thus making your choice pointless.
My first car in GT 7 was the Lamborghini in the used car dealership then when I could I changed cars and forgot about that car. The Scirocco I upgraded later is the car I’m more interested in as well as the sleeper Skyline
The way it felt to me has always been that Gran Turismo is a car game with some racing while Forza is more like a racing game with a bunch of cars. While Forza focuses around the whole "You race. You win. You race more. You win more" loop, Gran Turismo (especially 4) with all its "useless" cars focuses more about the aspect of "Here's a car. It's a piece of art that can do this. You can do this here too, but look at it! It's beautiful! Oh, yeah, do that with it and BAM! Here's a car. It's a piece of art that can do this" and so on. I personally am drawn more to the latter, the racing is fun, but I also want to enjoy the cars themselves as they are.
One of the best Demolition Derby games ever made. I talked about it more in my "Racing games stories" video. Bugbear can learn a thing or two in improving Wreckfest by looking at that game.
This is art 🚬 but seriously, I really enjoyed this video. It is a kind of reflection that I have made myself but that I have never been able to materialise in the form of content because I have not been able to understand where the cultural differences that you mention were noticeable. Having watched the video in its entirety, I totally agree with the differences you highlight between Japanese and Western productions. There are actually titles that went largely unnoticed in the West for the fact that they posed a totally different paradigm to what was fashionable at the time (for example, Shadow Of The Colossus, White Knight Chronicles, Resonance Of Fate, etc…) and they are games that personally excited me precisely because they broke with the monotony and with the market trends. And it also makes me appreciate the artistic and narrative freedom that Asian studios possess as opposed to Western studios, which are mostly obsessed with graphical fidelity and microtransaction systems. And I also loved the tone you gave to the video. Calm and rational. I've subscribed to your channel and I hope your videos reach more people because they are very cool! :)
Sega GT was the car game that stole my 7y/o heart and brought me down the rabbit hole of car games lol as an Xbox kid, I played a lot of FM after that. I was fortunate to have a PS3 and a 360 so I was able to play FM and Gran Turismo at the same gen once and I just could not get into GT, it felt like it had a weird, almost unnatural video style that tuned me off to the game even though my favorite car (69 Galant GTO) was only ever in GT. Well made video!
i never expected this kind of (admittedly comical) sophistication/smug for a racing video game video, but given it's comparing japanese/western videogame design i can dig it. 4:25 i believe this bit about the differences where Japan and the West put their attention to detail extend to general videogame design; that said, japan almost always goes above and beyond when it comes to said attention to detail
Speaking of the Tokyo Extreme Racer series, my guess is the arcade exclusive titles in Japan is too successful domestically alone killed off the need of console titles. Sega still make racing games like Initial D The Arcade and even got a Super GT licensed Sega World Drivers Championship, but that's it-no all new titles since Sega Race TV and R-Tuned Ultimate Street Racing, both 15 years ago. On the Genki side, things seems strange since its relationship with Bandai Namco on the Wangan Midnight series-Bandai Namco take all the credits for the Maximum Tune series to this day. I guess Genki suffered a lot since its bankrupt in 2006. The last title related was a short-lived mobile game called Shutokou Battle EXTREME around 2017, and I've been wondering why TXR cars are on a mobile game called Drift Spirits recently...
It's unfortunate there will likely never be a legal way to play those Arcade titles in the west, as it's likely they will forever remain arcade cabinet exclusive. The Sega Super GT game looks very interesting, similar to a tarmac version of what Sega Rally was. Japan has been very stingy when it comes to porting any Arcade games to console, particularly Sega, who has yet to port the 2017 Daytona USA or House of the Dead 5. Sad!
@@phlyingphalanges Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune also released on the west. Initial D however doesnt (most probably because of the music license since they are eurobeats)
As @younglink309 said, GT is really more about cars, i agree. One of the things i like the most about Enthusia is that the tracks feel more different, apart, unique, and while yes, the cars have basically zero reflections and weight transfer has an extremely strong effect on the cars (too much in my opinion), this doesn't make the game bad. Examples: 1. Tuning the cars (suspension, wheels camber etc), is very simple, and will show you how it's going to affect the car in a very easy to understand way. 2. The weight transfer thing makes some cars (like the Honda Beat) can be very fun to drive and very quick when tuned right. And 3. The way you get cars (literally a roulette), makes very different playthroughs. So, if you have a Ps2 (or emulator), and have never given the game a chance, do it. You won't encounter "license tests" in the carrer, and those are only nescessary if you want to unlock faster classes to the arcade mode, are fun (especially challenge ones), and to me, really add nice things to the game. Plus, you got some real tracks, can play in Tsukuba at night, Nordschleife in reverse, you can do touge, rally, and much much more.
Enthusia DOES have reflections, only when either played on real hardware or emulated through software emulation (unfortunately, other methods cause the reflections to go caput, such is the limitations of emulation).
Gran Turismo isn't just about racing, is about driving. Racing is just one of the experiences you can have as a driver. So GT always focused on having a expansive driving experience instead of improving the IA of the other racers or any other aspect about the extra-driving experience, which is something that really sucks if you are into sim racing, but on other hand, they made a game that was able to turn every average player on a entusiast car guy. It's just great how they introduce the car culture world, and have the care to explain every lore, historical events that influenced manufacturer brands and their respective machines. No words, just amazing.
This video is definitely one of the best analyses of the fundamental differences in thought that the different game studios bring when creating these games in this relatively similar genre. One of my favorite features from Import Tuner Challenge was their parking area system. It provided some pretty hilarious flavor text (one of the NPCs I met in the PA talked about how he tuned his suspension to be softer after the stiff suspension he was using before ruined his back) and also provided some neat information on other rivals, especially the wanderers who had specific requirements that had to be met in order to battle them.
Gran Turismo isn't just a mere "racing sim game", it's a "Driving Simulator" as the sub title said below the game name. It's something like a book about learning cars and how to drive them but presented in a form of video game. So they put a lot of details, and less "fun" because it's not just a game, it's a "Real Driving Simulator", not a "Real Racing Simulator" Forza in the other hand (specially Motorsports series) was intended to be a "racing game", so you can feel the tension and adrenaline rush, like you are really inside the game and feel the atmosphere of the game. And remember, faster cars = more fun, that's what I feel when I play Forza, because as the video said, It's a game, so it needs to be fun
Its main gameplay loop is racing and it wants you to win races, therefore it’s a racing game/sim. If it wants to be a driven sim, swap the races out for track days and time trials
i was going to close the video when you said that it's not going to criticize based on handling but gave it a chance still, thanks for pointing out a western style/idea that i have been infected with
GT3 would be a better Gran Turismo equivalent to FM1 rather than GT4. The first two Motorsports feel heavily inspired by how Gran Turismo 3 plays rather than the games after.
I love how your video is supposed to be about two specific racing games, but it end up being more philosophical and about people. In a way, i would say your narration is "cozy". Thank you :)
I like your essay, although I feel like omitting Test Drive Unlimited is a bit criminal, because that was an example of the third way, the French way of making car-focused games.
I omitted TDU because I was trying to compare a Western game to a Japanese game for every sub genre. GT vs. Forza, Sega GT vs. PGR2, etc. There isn't really a JP equivalent to TDU. Also, Eden Games is French, but I still find TDU to be very similar to other Western games in presentation. It has a big open world with loosely structured progression, plus being quite literally just an American rich person simulator.
Gran Turismo is still the best but the newer one is missing some of that arcade goofyness charm that would cut away from the intense perfectionist grind at times
For me the difference is that with a much greater emphasis on uniqueness and presentation, Japanese racing games (at their best) have more staying power than Western ones, however Western racing games tend to be more immediately accessible and have lower barriers to entry (and in some cases better usage of licensed music, though OSTs are a different story).
This is one big reason I want both series to be succesful & reaching their full potential, because while they are competitors, their atmosphere and game design is different enough. I prefer the style of GT, especially 5 & after. But, for some, it may be to clean or 'sterile' or 'classy'. Forza brought the more racing feel to the sim-cade genre.
People always talk about the more sporty or super cars but I was more attracted to the commercial cars like a subaru legacy. They also have like unique cars that no other racing game would have like the Mercedes Benz old tricycle in GT4 or the Schwimmwagen in GT5. Feels more like a celebration of car history and a cafe, though I do wish it had something like project gotham's museum mode. I think that's a really really cool feature.
Forza does a really good job of giving you exactly the car you want in order to race the way you want. GT however does a really good job of not giving you exactly the car you want in order give you the racing experience you didn’t know you wanted (but you did)
For me, an Xbox is for racing games. Got my original Xbox in 2004 with Halo and PGR2. I played PGR2 more, got all medals in everything. Then Burnout 3 came out, did the same thing, all with the rock and punk music available by that year playing in the background. Xbox is to race, even today, it's just a Forza machine and that's fine. Having Burnout Revenge on it is grand too.
Your experience is similar to mine. In 2004 after graduating 5th grade, my brother and I got the Xbox and got Halo 2 and PGR2. Best 2 games for that console. I agree Xbox is a racing game console.
@@ArbitraryOutcome I wouldn't call Thrill Driver horror racing though, but it definitely has horror-ish elements to it. EDIT: nevermind, i just remembered that Thrill Drive had a thing where the whole atmosphere would become increasingly darker and more pervasive every time you crashed. Yeah, i guess it is a horror racer after all.
American racing games: cool, badass, edgy, electric guitar, you are pulling every female in a 10 mile radius. Your blood is 16% Nitrous Oxide Japanese racing games: smooth jazz over the menu. The smell of fine coffee in the showroom. You are a distingushed connoisseur of the art of racing. Appreciate it and all its nuances to their fullest. To be frank, I like both for what they are, just depends on my mood.
Outrun 2 is still the GOAT arcade racer. Gran Turismo and Forza are fun, but the old Need for Speed games and SEGA GT beat them by varying margins. WipeOut is an amazing one too.
you won me at the last minute when you said burnout paradise is your favourite I just want to say you're not alone my homeboy I played so many hours smacking that dualshock3 analog so hard in those takedown races that I felt I'd break the damn thing, look, I'm to this day yet to discover another game that gives me the chillz anywhere remotely close to that jumpscare when the misterious car in the city appears cruising around you, mix of excitement, fear and connection, unmatched
As an Asian, I like the American way. I don't wanna grind gazillion hours or spend real money to unlock a car. I've played FH4 and 5 and didn't like these games though. Felt so boring unlike nfs 2,3,4, hp2, mw.
Gran Turismo is a love letter to cars and community on the other hand Forza feels like just a dose of adrenaline, not caring about cars, treating them just as skins.
Woah, felt like I struck a gold of video on this one. Thank you for making deep dive (or for trying) to dissect differences between Eastern vs Western philosophies in Racing genre. Although from the title I thought it would analyse wide variety of subgenres, and instead mostly cover on the most popular one. Not sure if the points brought up in the video are cherry picked, I think some Forza shows "genuine" interest in the car although mostly in this instance due to Top Gear hosts on Autovista and League intros (yeah they're great bringing such casual presentation and still maintaining those car dudes perspective). Another interesting series would be Midnight Club (starting from 2), the 2nd entry is solid enough, the 3rd which phenomenal for 6th console generation era, and then MCLA for the last entry which still hold up nowaday, for the Rockstar series, I think they put a lot character (no pun intended) on their game without a doubt. TDU maybe one of the best open world racing back then especially when it was also released on PS2/Xbox while having similar amount of content with their newer generation release of TDU, perhaps MS taking note of what Atari and TDU did and create Horizon spin off as we know now. Earlier NFS entries are mostly focused on high speed racing which they did carry it as far as HP2 and then the series shifted to Import culture (in the West) so major shift of tone (and different taste of fans coming in). I still enjoy both the classic high speed arcade racing of NFS and the street racing tone of NFS though what I dislike is the fandom especially the street racing one lol. With some devs team coming and go, the series have identity crisis even more complicated with EA shenanigan as publisher and Criterion games being former of the self... In my opinion, TXR series feels like a love letter toward the scene back in time as Genki even bothered to make mini documentary of these Highway racers. These highway racers even can be traced back in 1980s where they started racing on Tomei highway, during early 90s most of people shifted toward the new opened Bayshore route than runs from Tatsumi Island to near Yokohama area with span of ~65 KM (38.6 mi) length of roads for such *single stretch of route*. Genki even included some real drivers (or references to them) on their in-game rivals like Real life tuners and some pop references. To be fair, it is probably the closest thing of romanisation of highway street racing around Tokyo Metropolitan back in early 90s to late 90s where after that most of those are slowly died down due to police crack down and sudden stop of Mid Night club activities (yes they're not disbanded, thats just westerner rumor lol). Lastly, as someone few moments ago having playthrough of Test Drive Eve of Destruction (Driven to Destruction on PAL), it is very underrated demolition derby racing game on PS2/Xbox as it brought Americana demolition derby racing culture close to what you'd see on your local Midwest oval race track/race complex if you're American. Would like to see more of your coverage regarding these perspective of racing subgenres.
West motosport is like listening to drama podcast while japan motorsport is like asmr (not just GT but them old racing game like RIdge racer initial D and wangan midnight)
The key difference I find between Gran Turismo and Forza is that GT has this elegance to it that is hard to explain, while Forza has that eSports or hardcore car fans vibe. Like for example in Forza trailers they have this serious-tone narrator that describes what they are showing you, while in GT trailers they just show the cars with a nice relaxing or cool Japanese rock music in the background. And this extends into the game itself.
Great video thank you. The grand daddy of Japanese car combat is "super Mario kart" 1992 which changed the game or maybe even started it. PGR2 is the truth. Thoroughly enjoyed your video. Thank you
I love racing games and have been looking to get a new one for a long time. This was an excellent video, because you showed us some of the thinga that used to make racing games fun before ultra-realism and simulation started to take over. I think im going to find a copy of ridge racer 6 and pull out the old playstation- that looks like fun! Seriously this was an excellent video, thank you for giving me and others some persepctive!!
lmao, the problem with what you have outlined is that majority of the audience are NPCs so they likely regurgitated content, original content doesn't do very well in general
It's funny you mention open world as a western idea. I really REALLY enjoy the early 90s Need for Speed games. These all were closed circuits but with a variety of shortcuts or alternative routes, so it felt "open" even if it was ultimately a linear path. But every track would have a HUGE difference of look from the other tracks (snowy mountain vs red rock desert). I think the best comparison would be the late and greatly missed DriveClub. Meanwhile these open-world games usually have to stick with a single look or style (ex. the new The Crew Motorfest or Forza Horizon 5).
It still rings somewhat true. Closed-track arcade/simcade racers are looked down upon in the west, while in Japan they're the biggest market of racing game in general with a variety of real life arcade exclusive games and GT being the big one on console. The west is completely convinced that if it's not open-world then it won't make money. Recently the Grid series isn't doing so hot either, so it's not completely untrue.
@@shira_yoneThat's also cause the recent 2 Grids have been middling at best tbh. It seems they never figured out what they wanted GRiD to be. First one was the equivalent of DiRT on tarmac, which was the perfect approach imo. Then in the 2nd game they leaned way too far into the arcade element, stripping away features such as the cockpit view and making the handling more floaty. Autosport tried to half-ass the missing elements back, but it was clearly a rush job. And 2019 and Legends have pretty damn good handling, with nice interior animations and car models and sounds. But everything else abt these games is lacking. No premise, no robust and clear progression, presentation is negligible (no significant music tracks, extremely sanitized user interface and other such things) and the visuals are detailed on an objective scale, but there's no "flair" to them. Ik everybody laughs at the color filters from 7th gen games, but i think they offered a very discernible visual experience to these games. Im thinking of the cold blue tint from the winter stages in Dirt 3, as an example.
@@drifterz9186 it still serve as an example since... is there even any other Triple A arcade/simcade closed track racing game out there that doesn't chase muh realism? There's Wreckfest but it's more of a vehicular combat racer, rather than anything resembling PGR or Driveclub in spirit; Grid is still the closest thing to them.
@@shira_yone Yeah ik what you mean. I was just pointing out the debatable quality of the newer entries. This "realism" is such a buzzword anyway. It would have been good if they had at least kept their word on that. But they don't even do this "realism" they speak of, any justice. Take Forza for example. Their attention to detail is fucking awful. Their interior animations suck. Some of the car models are sub-par, let alone the interiors. It feels like when they say "realism" they almost never refer to the main object you're actually controlling, but rather the environment or other secondary/tertiary component. Racing games used to be so good in the 2000s man....
This is why it's a crime Ubisoft killed The Crew 1. That game was one of the most diverse racers you could get your hands on (i don't count The Crew 2 because the map was massively butchered in that game sadly...)
Top kek at that thumbnail. Video did not disappoint. Subbed! you know your stuff, glad to see Sega GT and TXR in here! Personally I like both styles, as a weeb I do kind of prefer the older japanese style but I think GT lost it's vibe after GT4 and now it's all sort of the same. It hurt that japan no longer makes racing games.
I'm ten minutes into this and already I want to say a few things. 1 I grew up on Playstation. PS2, then PS3, then I switched to PC. I NEVER got to play Forza, but after Midnight Club died, I always wanted to because it offered the customization I was used to with the "realistic" tough driving that I liked from GT3 A-spec. All of that said, I think in the future I want a hybrid approach. Give me the presentation of GT with the execution of Forza. Let me EARN my power fantasy, instead of either having it or being forced to conform to something else. Because long story short, Forza FEELS more like a racing game, and GT feels (and sounds, and looks) more like a simulation OF a game; rather than a driving physics simulation or a racing simulation. TBH, if I want the former, I'd play Beam, and if I wanted the latter, I'd play Assetto. Just saying, there's more to it than simply physics for sure, but without any flavor, challenge, or direction/structure (like GT and Midnight Club had), there's no deep satisfaction or enjoyment that'll make you WANT to come back, as opposed to just doing so to go through the motions or because you're bored.
My opinions on Forza and Gran Turismo. Forza 2: not for me Gran Turismo: this isn’t fun Forza Motorsport 4: I like this Forza Motorsport 6 (or was it 7?): this is great! GT Sport: this is good GT7: what is this? This isn’t racing. However it has something which means I am still playing, but I think I prefer Forza Motorsport. It’s fun and it’s actually racing. Don’t know what Gran Turismo is supposed to be I’m here for motorsport and racing. Forget everything else (unless you’ve nailed the racing and motorsport part, a part Gran Turismo seems to have forgotten and instead put Music Rally in)
For adults it's a situation between GT and Forza which is time: - Have to go to work and limit energy? Forza - Have more time, off, and can consume energy? GT
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
GT7 does such a good job helping the player fall in love with the small intricacies of machines that after watching me play a lot, my fiance that didnt care about cars at all, now has her favorites. She likes the 90s japanese cars with the pop up headlights and smooth streamlined interiors. She now enjoys the big curves of the 60s and 70s muscle cars and the unique goofy characteristics of experimental cars.
GT7 managed to turn her into a Miata fan, with a specefic taste in cars, due to its beauty and educational interactions alone. She knows a fair bit now, for somebody that when i met her 5 years ago, couldnt care less. Now when we drive i hear her say "whats that? Is that a miata? Is that a _____, or ______?". It converted her into a car person subliminally and that is amazing.
bui her a miata with some nice 2.0 swap
Guy literally beat the game
You gotta buy her an NA Miata now bro
Man that’s awesome! She sounds like a keeper. I hope you guys take care of each other for a long time.
bro thats just any racing game tbh
I believe that the problem with triple A racing games like Forza Horizon is that they´re trying too much to please people that doesn´t like cars, they transformed Forza into a action game to collect cars, almost like the Fast n Furious franchise. Apparently I have some love with number 4, because my favorite racing games are Forza Motorsport 4 (why the hell they never brought Fujimi Kaido back???), Gran Turismo 4 and Ridge Racer 4.
Thats true they do feel like they’re trying to please gamers not car enthusiasts, but fuck I wish we could still play FM4 online
If anything, I'd argue that the PC version of NFS: Porsche Unleashed was one of the rare Western racing games that somehow managed to replicate the unique vibe and intricate details of Japanese racing games. Notably with the accurately detailed car models for its time, the Evolution and Factory Driver mode that was immersive enough to give Gran Turismo a run for its money, the museum-esque Porsche Chronicle where we can learn the history of the Porsche marque, and its also has the race finish jingles that plays differently depending on the finishing position.
Oh 100 percent agree there! I love the evolution mechanic especially just because it's so unique. I want another game that has a chronological focus on the cars.
Totally agree 100% on this. Imo nfs porsche unleashed on the PC is still the best nfs to date.
@breadandcircuses8127um, because they're objectively correct?
nice to see nfs porsche unleashed being brought up! currently trying to finish the evolution mode of it, I had played it as a kid and decided to download it again for the nostalgia, turns out it's as fun as it used to be to the younger me
Literally a GT for Porsche
I've always felt like Forza is about Racing. Gran Turismo is about cars
A very succinct way to describe the sim racing portion of the video, bravo!
Because it is. Gran Turismo is a love letter to cars.
Forza is about paid DLCs Gran Turismo is about racing and cars
GT will tell you the stories behind every car, how every car works, how to drive faster and the importance of cars in human history. And forza they just give you cars and race
Yeah, pretty much.
FM1 to FM4 Made me think Turn 10 loves cars, but now I'm doubtful.
Hands down:
FM4 BEST FORZA EVER
Nissan S15 Silvia:
@@D_LGNDoh look, an overrated car.
@@RealMakarov Don’t forget Forza horizon 1
Both are goated
@@lunar2109 I rather say FH2/3 is the best
When it comes to atmospheres in racing games, the ones I like are:
- Rage Racer and Ridge Racer Type 4 - Rage is sort of technological in its presentation while 4 does a neat clean and minimalistic look for its menus while the races have splendid use of washed out colours and a fantastic jazz fusion edm soundtrack.
- Wipeout 3 and HD/Fury - Unique futuristic sci-fi setting with a hint of the professional tone you'd see in F1. 3 goes for more clean minimalism while HD/Fury is sort of simple concept art mixed with futuristic details.
- Midnight Club 2 - A moody neon lit trance music album in the form of a difficult arcade racing game. Also has some hip hop, but who cares.
- Midnight Club Los Angeles - The detail of the interiors, which includes a clock in some that shows the game world's time. Being able to modify these interiors to your liking and then cruising down these fantastically detailed streets with loads of traffic. You can even hold the gas lightly to make the car automatically match the speed limit. That's that immersion this game gets fantastically.
- Test Drive Unlimited - Calm fantasy of being some rich person on a big island, visiting actual car shops and choosing the look of the car based on real options such shops would provide. It may be a racing game, but it's very laidback feeling, wanting you to enjoy the ride.
- Need for Speed Underground 2 - Somewhat stylized look with glossy surfaces, unique shading and the car models too have a strange plasticky look that adds to the mood.
- Need for Speed Prostreet - The detail of every festival makes them feel properly lively and believable as settings. Seeing your car in the environment with people moving around, the festival announcer speaking with that specific kind of reverb to the voice to make it sound like it's coming from a distant speaker, the whole context in general. I love it.
- Colin McRae Rally 2.0 - The sort of minimal yet electronic device look. Simple shapes and symbols while industrial music plays. It seems somewhat cool, like it wants you to feel like you're about to get into something that is intimidating, yet you will be part of the thing that feels intimidating.
- Dirt Rally - Clear, mundane reality without any fancy tricks. Just nature as it is, cars as they are with the details that belong without adding some filters that would make the reality look better than how it actually is. Honest mundanity.
- Gran Turismo 2 - Menus filled with colours but also black spaces everywhere, creating this contrast between the information, the attention grabbing visuals and the darkness that reminds you of the space limitations of the system. That constant visual contrast creates a very specific look that creates its own fascinating feeling. The cars are real, they have real information, but the visuals are never complete, can never be complete, letting the fantasy fill in the rest. Also the prog rock jazz fusion to add laidback yet bouncy mood. Classy but not too serious.
- Gran Turismo 4 - This game meanwhile goes for a mix of lounge music and edm to make the presentation come across as even more sophisticated,. The race previews still give that arcade vibe of being presented the race to get you interested, yet the menus are clean and quite sterile when it comes to car settings. No flashing lights, no fancy colours. Just clean sterility with class.
- Tokyo Xtreme Racer Drift 2 - The world feels properly lived in, populated by a massive variety of people who enjoy the same hobby as you do for different reasons, and all of them together form the overall idea of this whole sport. The fact that you meet them personally in parking spaces adds to the immersion.
- Cruis'n World and Hydro Thunder (Arcade) - Eyecatching menu visuals, both wanting to create a visually fun experience to get you interested as you choose the track and vehicle. Both aim for a different feel, but that way they want to make you care from the start is effective, communicating its own style and mood right from the get to to sell itself for you.
Man, I didn’t read all of it but, I appreciate how you described it. Nice
To the Codemasters games I'd add DiRT 1, 2 and 3. All of them pretty classy, with the music stopping when the race starts, telling you "This is getting serious" in a way.
1 had some cool looking menus, very flat and stylish, still with some tangibility with the shiny metallic stripes and the animated loadings and all. The list of stage being a pyramid also felt real good.
2 went the opposite way, with full-on tangibility, forcing the player to move in a 3D van, to look at the map of events and all. And there was always someone talking to you. And there were a ton of stamps everywhere!
3 kept the stamps but is more reminiscent of 1: super stylish, abstract presentation, with the current car being front and center. And the whole UI revolved around triangles (up to the "i"'s dot being one) with the tetrahedrons unfolding to present the events, or the whole thing turning gold when complete. Stylish and clever.
So glad you brought a midnight club 2. I was gonna say there’s no way he’s gonna bring up atmosphere and not talk about that game. Kudos to you my friend. Thanks for the sweet write up!
Can't believe you put in Wipeout but not the legend burnout 3
@@Raptorsified I don't find its atmosphere that interesting. Just a very usual 2000's tone that tries to appeal to the youth that likes action and rock music. You'd see this sort of tone in tv shows and cartoon channels of that era a lot. Paradise has some semblance of tranquility to its map due to how sparsely populated it is. All of these detailed streets and roads, yet barely any traffic outside of the strange crash mode. Makes one feel strangely isolated.
I guess Burnout 2 is neat in how much it creates an arcade cabinet feel with its UI design. Revenge has that grungy industrial look I guess. I dunno, I don't see much in the Burnout franchise when it comes to an atmosphere.
I think there's also a distinction in vision between Japanese and western console racing games. Japanese racing games love to put you in the seat of a role, they built up the games starting from a Japanese Role-play perspective. What do I mean by this? For example, in Gran Turismo you are an up and coming "professional racer", so you start small racing in rookie competitions until you eventually participate in purpose built race cars for "big deal" events (Sega GT, Enthusia, R: Racing Evolution also use this formula).
This gets even more prevalent when you look at something like Racing Lagoon, the ChoroQ series, and especially games made by Genki. In Shutokou Battle/Tokyo Xtreme Racer you are in the role of a broke but skilled street racer who became the best in the whole expressway, becoming a legend. It's focused more on the "street racer life sim" aspects more than it ever has on actual racing technicalities or mechanics, the AI are dumb as hell and blatantly cheats, the gameplay loop is repetitive beyond believe, the handling physics are not exactly great to say mildly; but it is everything else surrounding the racing itself that became the main appeal, their dedication on giving every single rival some flavor text description (not too dissimilar from Dark Souls) just to give an impression that they are real people that you can meet, menu and music that give a particular _vibe,_ the attention to detail on the car models and their engine type, having real life places that you can actually visit just to sell you on the immersion and fantasy to role-play in, etc.
It's a microcosm of the Japanese approach, the thing that you alludes to in the video, of how they care about the whole *experience* rather than just the sum of it's part.
I love these Japanese racing games you have listed and much more, this is also probably due to the same reasons you listed and because how many of them catch those looks/times of the 90s to 2000s even with the music.
@breadandcircuses8127 I was born in North America, so of course. If from the U.S., no but I am a citizen.
@shira_yone, et al, you all forgot a little trilogy of video games that is called the Test Drive: Unlimited Trilogy (1, 2, and Solar Crown). You want to talk about role playing in racing games, then you all need to talk about those games as well.
Sega GT on Xbox was so overlooked, great racing game and preferred it to Gran Turismo for a few reasons. The best example is had a friend who loved GT3 play Sega GT with his favorite car, he proceeded to floor the gas and bounce off every corner and came in first place. Then he was shocked and upset that he lost all his winnings to pay for repairs because of his poor driving.
😂
That game came with jsrf, I didn’t really want it but I figured I’d try it since I had it and I fell in love lol
GT was what I played to have FUN
still wish sega gt had a comeback. sad it was forgotten about
Wish it's easier to emulate, I really want to play it but xbox is practically non-existent outside of America.
"They are the same, as a car in Japan is the same as a car in North America"
Best video essay quote ever. Good vid.
What if a car that is built in Japan is also built, as well as sold, in the USA, though?
"meet my friend, Bizarre Creations"
"oh cool, what's his talent"
"being British and making cool racing games that no one appreciates until it's too late"
"oh nice"
"Both games (GT7 and FM8) want you to grind and its fucking lame", TRUE LOL
But here is the issue, if you have no progression, you just get Forza Horizon 5 which hands you the hyper cars immediately and you have all the money in the world to do what you want- nothing feels earned and there isn't any accomplishment for doing the events other than just to check a box that you did them.
RRU was actually planned to be an original IP before Namco stepped in because Split/Second and Blur flopped. There's also another unrelated game by Bugbear that had a similar style called "Crash Club".
sup man
I seriously want Ridge Racer to come back. I’m tired of sim racing being the only way to play be it a Japanese or western developer. I’ve never been interested in Forza, Gran Turismo just isn’t what it used to be. I just want that difficult yet simple and satisfying arcade style of fun back. Sure Namco gave us two games on PS Plus but I don’t think scraps of the past are gonna satisfy us forever.
SEGA GT 2022 holds a special place in my heart. I used to play it religiously on my OG Xbox for hours on the weekends when I finished all of my homework. Mind you, I was only 9 or 10 years old and experiencing the amazing soundtrack was an absolute vibe.
One of the few videos I've watched numerous times.
Glad you enjoyed!
Being from the 80's, my favorite racing games (Arcade and Simulation) so far were :
- Need For Speed 2, 3 and 4 (1997-1999) on PC
- Burnout 3
- Project Gotham Racing
- Gran Turismo 4
- Toca
- NFS Most Wanted
- Motorstorm 1 & Pacific Rift
- Race Driver Grid (2008)
- Blur
- Forza 3
- NFS Shift
- Project Cars
I played these games so far. Many other games were great yet I have no more this attraction :
Great video man!
NO MENTION OF VIPER RACING????
@t3hgir OH boy, I forgot about this gem of a game although I haven't had the chance to savour it, (My PC was crap at that time), it was one my best friend games
@@samisaker7008 , you should give the PC modded version of Test Drive: Unlimited a go, and, no, it is not the same as the Test Drive: Platinum that is on the Microsoft Xbox 360, but it is called Test Drive: Platinum nonetheless.
This is the best commentary video i've ever watched. You're so respectful and you know what you're talking about
Thank you!
Strongly agree
Blur is ultimately a kart racer that dares to have an interesting physics model. But at the end of eth day, it's more like Mario Kart, Crash Team Racing, or even WipEout.
Finally a niche channel that talks about specific thoughts I have
(Also that thumbnail reminded me of one of my videos)
Your coverage of PGR 2 was perfect. Bizzare was so underrated and blur was an addiction of mine for a good while.
i'll say this: gran turismo will make you love your first car. there's nothing better than starting your game with a toyota mr2 g-limited in gt4 than starting your fm3 playthrough with a ford fiesta thats just... given to you, not even purchased.
but yeah gran turismo's events can be a pain, especially the SPEEDSTER TROPHY.
Old GT true, but not the new ones.
Gt 6 you have 0 zero choice about your starter car, forcing you to use a Honda Fit.
GT7 gives you a false choice since your first task is to earn all 3 starter cars, thus making your choice pointless.
My first car in GT 7 was the Lamborghini in the used car dealership then when I could I changed cars and forgot about that car. The Scirocco I upgraded later is the car I’m more interested in as well as the sleeper Skyline
The way it felt to me has always been that Gran Turismo is a car game with some racing while Forza is more like a racing game with a bunch of cars. While Forza focuses around the whole "You race. You win. You race more. You win more" loop, Gran Turismo (especially 4) with all its "useless" cars focuses more about the aspect of "Here's a car. It's a piece of art that can do this. You can do this here too, but look at it! It's beautiful! Oh, yeah, do that with it and BAM! Here's a car. It's a piece of art that can do this" and so on. I personally am drawn more to the latter, the racing is fun, but I also want to enjoy the cars themselves as they are.
The last part of the video is called "Closing Thots" 💀
LOL
Bro knows about the existance of driven to destruction aint no way
One of the best Demolition Derby games ever made. I talked about it more in my "Racing games stories" video. Bugbear can learn a thing or two in improving Wreckfest by looking at that game.
This is art 🚬 but seriously, I really enjoyed this video. It is a kind of reflection that I have made myself but that I have never been able to materialise in the form of content because I have not been able to understand where the cultural differences that you mention were noticeable. Having watched the video in its entirety, I totally agree with the differences you highlight between Japanese and Western productions.
There are actually titles that went largely unnoticed in the West for the fact that they posed a totally different paradigm to what was fashionable at the time (for example, Shadow Of The Colossus, White Knight Chronicles, Resonance Of Fate, etc…) and they are games that personally excited me precisely because they broke with the monotony and with the market trends. And it also makes me appreciate the artistic and narrative freedom that Asian studios possess as opposed to Western studios, which are mostly obsessed with graphical fidelity and microtransaction systems.
And I also loved the tone you gave to the video. Calm and rational. I've subscribed to your channel and I hope your videos reach more people because they are very cool! :)
Thank you for the kind words, much appreciated 👍
i like cars
they exist
within time and space
The only thing GT4 does best is have that Yello song when you fail a license test...
Sega GT was the car game that stole my 7y/o heart and brought me down the rabbit hole of car games lol as an Xbox kid, I played a lot of FM after that. I was fortunate to have a PS3 and a 360 so I was able to play FM and Gran Turismo at the same gen once and I just could not get into GT, it felt like it had a weird, almost unnatural video style that tuned me off to the game even though my favorite car (69 Galant GTO) was only ever in GT. Well made video!
i never expected this kind of (admittedly comical) sophistication/smug for a racing video game video, but given it's comparing japanese/western videogame design i can dig it. 4:25 i believe this bit about the differences where Japan and the West put their attention to detail extend to general videogame design; that said, japan almost always goes above and beyond when it comes to said attention to detail
Speaking of the Tokyo Extreme Racer series, my guess is the arcade exclusive titles in Japan is too successful domestically alone killed off the need of console titles.
Sega still make racing games like Initial D The Arcade and even got a Super GT licensed Sega World Drivers Championship, but that's it-no all new titles since Sega Race TV and R-Tuned Ultimate Street Racing, both 15 years ago.
On the Genki side, things seems strange since its relationship with Bandai Namco on the Wangan Midnight series-Bandai Namco take all the credits for the Maximum Tune series to this day. I guess Genki suffered a lot since its bankrupt in 2006.
The last title related was a short-lived mobile game called Shutokou Battle EXTREME around 2017, and I've been wondering why TXR cars are on a mobile game called Drift Spirits recently...
It's unfortunate there will likely never be a legal way to play those Arcade titles in the west, as it's likely they will forever remain arcade cabinet exclusive. The Sega Super GT game looks very interesting, similar to a tarmac version of what Sega Rally was. Japan has been very stingy when it comes to porting any Arcade games to console, particularly Sega, who has yet to port the 2017 Daytona USA or House of the Dead 5. Sad!
Genki is still around but they're largely a support studio for Bandai Namco at this point.
@@phlyingphalanges Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune also released on the west. Initial D however doesnt (most probably because of the music license since they are eurobeats)
If any Americans got mad during listening to this video, you may be the problem,
As @younglink309 said, GT is really more about cars, i agree.
One of the things i like the most about Enthusia is that the tracks feel more different, apart, unique, and while yes, the cars have basically zero reflections and weight transfer has an extremely strong effect on the cars (too much in my opinion), this doesn't make the game bad.
Examples:
1. Tuning the cars (suspension, wheels camber etc), is very simple, and will show you how it's going to affect the car in a very easy to understand way.
2. The weight transfer thing makes some cars (like the Honda Beat) can be very fun to drive and very quick when tuned right. And
3. The way you get cars (literally a roulette), makes very different playthroughs.
So, if you have a Ps2 (or emulator), and have never given the game a chance, do it.
You won't encounter "license tests" in the carrer, and those are only nescessary if you want to unlock faster classes to the arcade mode, are fun (especially challenge ones), and to me, really add nice things to the game.
Plus, you got some real tracks, can play in Tsukuba at night, Nordschleife in reverse, you can do touge, rally, and much much more.
Enthusia DOES have reflections, only when either played on real hardware or emulated through software emulation (unfortunately, other methods cause the reflections to go caput, such is the limitations of emulation).
@@thehwguy4293 Yeah it does, but (on the Ps2 at least), they almost never appear
I like your sense of humor in the beginning of the video. Left a like.
Gran Turismo isn't just about racing, is about driving. Racing is just one of the experiences you can have as a driver. So GT always focused on having a expansive driving experience instead of improving the IA of the other racers or any other aspect about the extra-driving experience, which is something that really sucks if you are into sim racing, but on other hand, they made a game that was able to turn every average player on a entusiast car guy. It's just great how they introduce the car culture world, and have the care to explain every lore, historical events that influenced manufacturer brands and their respective machines. No words, just amazing.
This video is definitely one of the best analyses of the fundamental differences in thought that the different game studios bring when creating these games in this relatively similar genre. One of my favorite features from Import Tuner Challenge was their parking area system. It provided some pretty hilarious flavor text (one of the NPCs I met in the PA talked about how he tuned his suspension to be softer after the stiff suspension he was using before ruined his back) and also provided some neat information on other rivals, especially the wanderers who had specific requirements that had to be met in order to battle them.
Forza Motorsport 4 has Jeremy Clarkson, Gran Turismo 4 doesn't. End of discussion.
Forza Motorsport 4 has Fujimi Kaido, Gran Turismo doesn't.
26:22 "when you are decent in everything, you end up being perfect... in nothing"
Gran Turismo isn't just a mere "racing sim game", it's a "Driving Simulator" as the sub title said below the game name. It's something like a book about learning cars and how to drive them but presented in a form of video game. So they put a lot of details, and less "fun" because it's not just a game, it's a "Real Driving Simulator", not a "Real Racing Simulator"
Forza in the other hand (specially Motorsports series) was intended to be a "racing game", so you can feel the tension and adrenaline rush, like you are really inside the game and feel the atmosphere of the game. And remember, faster cars = more fun, that's what I feel when I play Forza, because as the video said, It's a game, so it needs to be fun
Its main gameplay loop is racing and it wants you to win races, therefore it’s a racing game/sim. If it wants to be a driven sim, swap the races out for track days and time trials
Yeah, but it's not real at all
This just blew me away. Reminds me "reading is fundamental". I came to race. Not just drive.
i was going to close the video when you said that it's not going to criticize based on handling but gave it a chance still, thanks for pointing out a western style/idea that i have been infected with
GT3 would be a better Gran Turismo equivalent to FM1 rather than GT4. The first two Motorsports feel heavily inspired by how Gran Turismo 3 plays rather than the games after.
I love how your video is supposed to be about two specific racing games, but it end up being more philosophical and about people. In a way, i would say your narration is "cozy". Thank you :)
I like your essay, although I feel like omitting Test Drive Unlimited is a bit criminal, because that was an example of the third way, the French way of making car-focused games.
I omitted TDU because I was trying to compare a Western game to a Japanese game for every sub genre. GT vs. Forza, Sega GT vs. PGR2, etc. There isn't really a JP equivalent to TDU.
Also, Eden Games is French, but I still find TDU to be very similar to other Western games in presentation. It has a big open world with loosely structured progression, plus being quite literally just an American rich person simulator.
25:11 To be fair Forza Horizion basically copied the first Test Drive Unlimited's style and of course TDU2's style with DiRT 2's festival feel.
at least someone else gets it. 👍
It didn't at all, you can only have this take if you have the most superficial understanding of these games
Forza horizon 1 is more akin to nfs most wanted than the other games you mentioned
Gran Turismo is still the best but the newer one is missing some of that arcade goofyness charm that would cut away from the intense perfectionist grind at times
For me the difference is that with a much greater emphasis on uniqueness and presentation, Japanese racing games (at their best) have more staying power than Western ones, however Western racing games tend to be more immediately accessible and have lower barriers to entry (and in some cases better usage of licensed music, though OSTs are a different story).
I’m sorry but the only thing I could notice all video is how you play all these games in an automatic
he drives better than Dustin Eden though (not saying much XDDDD)
This is one big reason I want both series to be succesful & reaching their full potential, because while they are competitors, their atmosphere and game design is different enough. I prefer the style of GT, especially 5 & after. But, for some, it may be to clean or 'sterile' or 'classy'. Forza brought the more racing feel to the sim-cade genre.
i hope one day ridge racer will come back
HAPPY 500TH SUB BROO❤❤❤
People always talk about the more sporty or super cars but I was more attracted to the commercial cars like a subaru legacy.
They also have like unique cars that no other racing game would have like the Mercedes Benz old tricycle in GT4 or the Schwimmwagen in GT5.
Feels more like a celebration of car history and a cafe, though I do wish it had something like project gotham's museum mode. I think that's a really really cool feature.
Good videos !
R4 Ridge racer type 4 is the biggest vibe for me. The presentation, the music, the arcadey physics. It was so well put together!
A big japanese car combat game is a little title called mario kart
GTR 2 and GT Legends transcended the locale aspect of racing games for me.
very underrated games. Impressive physics models for the time that still feel good with a wheel.
This was a very good video👌. Subbed.
Forza does a really good job of giving you exactly the car you want in order to race the way you want. GT however does a really
good job of not giving you exactly the car you want in order give you the racing experience you didn’t know you wanted (but you did)
PGR 1 through 4 are class, as is MSR before them. 🍻
For me, an Xbox is for racing games.
Got my original Xbox in 2004 with Halo and PGR2.
I played PGR2 more, got all medals in everything.
Then Burnout 3 came out, did the same thing, all with the rock and punk music available by that year playing in the background.
Xbox is to race, even today, it's just a Forza machine and that's fine.
Having Burnout Revenge on it is grand too.
+1 Xbox is for racing games. TDU on 360 :)
Your experience is similar to mine. In 2004 after graduating 5th grade, my brother and I got the Xbox and got Halo 2 and PGR2. Best 2 games for that console. I agree Xbox is a racing game console.
japanese does have car combat or horror racing is what the fans called it burnout is originally inspired by thrill driver
Maximum Tune VS races are also somewhat of a meme for how chaotic and aggressive they can get, too.
@@ArbitraryOutcome I wouldn't call Thrill Driver horror racing though, but it definitely has horror-ish elements to it.
EDIT: nevermind, i just remembered that Thrill Drive had a thing where the whole atmosphere would become increasingly darker and more pervasive every time you crashed. Yeah, i guess it is a horror racer after all.
Thrill drive isn’t really car combat, its a normal street racing game with random “horror” bits thrown in
basically, western games have no jazz music therefore have no soul.
That's about 90% of it
American racing games: cool, badass, edgy, electric guitar, you are pulling every female in a 10 mile radius. Your blood is 16% Nitrous Oxide
Japanese racing games: smooth jazz over the menu. The smell of fine coffee in the showroom. You are a distingushed connoisseur of the art of racing. Appreciate it and all its nuances to their fullest.
To be frank, I like both for what they are, just depends on my mood.
Outrun 2 is still the GOAT arcade racer.
Gran Turismo and Forza are fun, but the old Need for Speed games and SEGA GT beat them by varying margins.
WipeOut is an amazing one too.
Sega GT 2002 looks hella fun to play. Too bad the current emulation sucks...
you won me at the last minute when you said burnout paradise is your favourite I just want to say you're not alone my homeboy
I played so many hours smacking that dualshock3 analog so hard in those takedown races that I felt I'd break the damn thing, look, I'm to this day yet to discover another game that gives me the chillz anywhere remotely close to that jumpscare when the misterious car in the city appears cruising around you, mix of excitement, fear and connection, unmatched
Super good essay dude!!!!!! (or if it is not an essay, good work) i really like it and have discovered another racing games thank you.
As an Asian, I like the American way. I don't wanna grind gazillion hours or spend real money to unlock a car. I've played FH4 and 5 and didn't like these games though. Felt so boring unlike nfs 2,3,4, hp2, mw.
you're somehow subtly funny, subbed
That's the best way to describe my life up to this point.
Dude talks like the joker and I absolutely love it 😂
PGR 2 is one of the best racing games ever. It was huge, looked amazing and drove great
I'm just happy someone finally put Import tuner challenge on the spotlight.
Gran Turismo is a love letter to cars and community on the other hand Forza feels like just a dose of adrenaline, not caring about cars, treating them just as skins.
Woah, felt like I struck a gold of video on this one. Thank you for making deep dive (or for trying) to dissect differences between Eastern vs Western philosophies in Racing genre. Although from the title I thought it would analyse wide variety of subgenres, and instead mostly cover on the most popular one.
Not sure if the points brought up in the video are cherry picked, I think some Forza shows "genuine" interest in the car although mostly in this instance due to Top Gear hosts on Autovista and League intros (yeah they're great bringing such casual presentation and still maintaining those car dudes perspective).
Another interesting series would be Midnight Club (starting from 2), the 2nd entry is solid enough, the 3rd which phenomenal for 6th console generation era, and then MCLA for the last entry which still hold up nowaday, for the Rockstar series, I think they put a lot character (no pun intended) on their game without a doubt.
TDU maybe one of the best open world racing back then especially when it was also released on PS2/Xbox while having similar amount of content with their newer generation release of TDU, perhaps MS taking note of what Atari and TDU did and create Horizon spin off as we know now.
Earlier NFS entries are mostly focused on high speed racing which they did carry it as far as HP2 and then the series shifted to Import culture (in the West) so major shift of tone (and different taste of fans coming in). I still enjoy both the classic high speed arcade racing of NFS and the street racing tone of NFS though what I dislike is the fandom especially the street racing one lol. With some devs team coming and go, the series have identity crisis even more complicated with EA shenanigan as publisher and Criterion games being former of the self...
In my opinion, TXR series feels like a love letter toward the scene back in time as Genki even bothered to make mini documentary of these Highway racers. These highway racers even can be traced back in 1980s where they started racing on Tomei highway, during early 90s most of people shifted toward the new opened Bayshore route than runs from Tatsumi Island to near Yokohama area with span of ~65 KM (38.6 mi) length of roads for such *single stretch of route*. Genki even included some real drivers (or references to them) on their in-game rivals like Real life tuners and some pop references. To be fair, it is probably the closest thing of romanisation of highway street racing around Tokyo Metropolitan back in early 90s to late 90s where after that most of those are slowly died down due to police crack down and sudden stop of Mid Night club activities (yes they're not disbanded, thats just westerner rumor lol).
Lastly, as someone few moments ago having playthrough of Test Drive Eve of Destruction (Driven to Destruction on PAL), it is very underrated demolition derby racing game on PS2/Xbox as it brought Americana demolition derby racing culture close to what you'd see on your local Midwest oval race track/race complex if you're American.
Would like to see more of your coverage regarding these perspective of racing subgenres.
West motosport is like listening to drama podcast while japan motorsport is like asmr (not just GT but them old racing game like RIdge racer initial D and wangan midnight)
the fact that you know about genki and import tuner challenge or its should be be name Tokyo extreme racer 4 made me subscribe
speaking of car combat, wangan midnight maximum tune (the arcade series) is almost a de fecto car combat game without damage model XD
The key difference I find between Gran Turismo and Forza is that GT has this elegance to it that is hard to explain, while Forza has that eSports or hardcore car fans vibe. Like for example in Forza trailers they have this serious-tone narrator that describes what they are showing you, while in GT trailers they just show the cars with a nice relaxing or cool Japanese rock music in the background. And this extends into the game itself.
Really well made video, you clearly know your subject very well and seeing those random memes pop out throughout the video was quite fun too.
Here to say that seeing Warship Gunner mentioned is gleeful, even if it was just for half a second.
What a great game series.
Great video thank you. The grand daddy of Japanese car combat is "super Mario kart" 1992 which changed the game or maybe even started it. PGR2 is the truth. Thoroughly enjoyed your video. Thank you
@breadandcircuses8127 blur is overrated
I love racing games and have been looking to get a new one for a long time. This was an excellent video, because you showed us some of the thinga that used to make racing games fun before ultra-realism and simulation started to take over. I think im going to find a copy of ridge racer 6 and pull out the old playstation- that looks like fun!
Seriously this was an excellent video, thank you for giving me and others some persepctive!!
Yeah, that is THE rant for modern racing game community. For real, it has no bullshit in any argument
Its like comparing Nascar to F1 (before liberty media)
lmao, the problem with what you have outlined is that majority of the audience are NPCs so they likely regurgitated content, original content doesn't do very well in general
Your commentary is great, dude. Great video.
Glad you enjoyed!
It's funny you mention open world as a western idea. I really REALLY enjoy the early 90s Need for Speed games. These all were closed circuits but with a variety of shortcuts or alternative routes, so it felt "open" even if it was ultimately a linear path. But every track would have a HUGE difference of look from the other tracks (snowy mountain vs red rock desert). I think the best comparison would be the late and greatly missed DriveClub. Meanwhile these open-world games usually have to stick with a single look or style (ex. the new The Crew Motorfest or Forza Horizon 5).
It still rings somewhat true. Closed-track arcade/simcade racers are looked down upon in the west, while in Japan they're the biggest market of racing game in general with a variety of real life arcade exclusive games and GT being the big one on console.
The west is completely convinced that if it's not open-world then it won't make money. Recently the Grid series isn't doing so hot either, so it's not completely untrue.
@@shira_yoneThat's also cause the recent 2 Grids have been middling at best tbh. It seems they never figured out what they wanted GRiD to be.
First one was the equivalent of DiRT on tarmac, which was the perfect approach imo. Then in the 2nd game they leaned way too far into the arcade element, stripping away features such as the cockpit view and making the handling more floaty. Autosport tried to half-ass the missing elements back, but it was clearly a rush job. And 2019 and Legends have pretty damn good handling, with nice interior animations and car models and sounds. But everything else abt these games is lacking. No premise, no robust and clear progression, presentation is negligible (no significant music tracks, extremely sanitized user interface and other such things) and the visuals are detailed on an objective scale, but there's no "flair" to them. Ik everybody laughs at the color filters from 7th gen games, but i think they offered a very discernible visual experience to these games. Im thinking of the cold blue tint from the winter stages in Dirt 3, as an example.
@@drifterz9186 it still serve as an example since... is there even any other Triple A arcade/simcade closed track racing game out there that doesn't chase muh realism?
There's Wreckfest but it's more of a vehicular combat racer, rather than anything resembling PGR or Driveclub in spirit; Grid is still the closest thing to them.
@@shira_yone Yeah ik what you mean. I was just pointing out the debatable quality of the newer entries. This "realism" is such a buzzword anyway. It would have been good if they had at least kept their word on that. But they don't even do this "realism" they speak of, any justice. Take Forza for example. Their attention to detail is fucking awful. Their interior animations suck. Some of the car models are sub-par, let alone the interiors. It feels like when they say "realism" they almost never refer to the main object you're actually controlling, but rather the environment or other secondary/tertiary component. Racing games used to be so good in the 2000s man....
This is why it's a crime Ubisoft killed The Crew 1. That game was one of the most diverse racers you could get your hands on (i don't count The Crew 2 because the map was massively butchered in that game sadly...)
Awesome video
Imagine being born and named "Kiki Wolfkill" 💀💀
Bro talks like the Joker 2008
I grew up playing top gear, sega gt 2002 , pgr2 , forza , gran turismo. Memories
Damn this video is so well made
Good job
Great video ! I wish there was a similar one talking about how medieval games (in general) differ in terms of vibes when it's japanese or not
Top kek at that thumbnail. Video did not disappoint. Subbed! you know your stuff, glad to see Sega GT and TXR in here!
Personally I like both styles, as a weeb I do kind of prefer the older japanese style but I think GT lost it's vibe after GT4 and now it's all sort of the same. It hurt that japan no longer makes racing games.
I just like that someone is talking about racing games (not sims that have no game elements, i like them btw), i enjoyed this video.
btw, blur is sooo underrated
I actually love you so much.
37:37 the hud on the track was also done by Blur and NFS Nitro if I recall correctly
Though not to that extent
I'm ten minutes into this and already I want to say a few things. 1 I grew up on Playstation. PS2, then PS3, then I switched to PC. I NEVER got to play Forza, but after Midnight Club died, I always wanted to because it offered the customization I was used to with the "realistic" tough driving that I liked from GT3 A-spec. All of that said, I think in the future I want a hybrid approach.
Give me the presentation of GT with the execution of Forza. Let me EARN my power fantasy, instead of either having it or being forced to conform to something else. Because long story short, Forza FEELS more like a racing game, and GT feels (and sounds, and looks) more like a simulation OF a game; rather than a driving physics simulation or a racing simulation. TBH, if I want the former, I'd play Beam, and if I wanted the latter, I'd play Assetto.
Just saying, there's more to it than simply physics for sure, but without any flavor, challenge, or direction/structure (like GT and Midnight Club had), there's no deep satisfaction or enjoyment that'll make you WANT to come back, as opposed to just doing so to go through the motions or because you're bored.
I love the way this guy talks
My opinions on Forza and Gran Turismo.
Forza 2: not for me
Gran Turismo: this isn’t fun
Forza Motorsport 4: I like this
Forza Motorsport 6 (or was it 7?): this is great!
GT Sport: this is good
GT7: what is this? This isn’t racing. However it has something which means I am still playing, but I think I prefer Forza Motorsport. It’s fun and it’s actually racing. Don’t know what Gran Turismo is supposed to be
I’m here for motorsport and racing. Forget everything else (unless you’ve nailed the racing and motorsport part, a part Gran Turismo seems to have forgotten and instead put Music Rally in)
For adults it's a situation between GT and Forza which is time:
- Have to go to work and limit energy? Forza
- Have more time, off, and can consume energy? GT