You don't print the supports themselves with the support for PLA material, you print the interface layer only. the first time you do it it seems hidden, but people mistake the whole process and print the supports with ths support material. it takes barely a few grams (or fractions of a gram) to print the support 'interface' - it also toggles all the settings needed to make it easier to remove - the latest firmware updated the gap to make it even easier.
Saved me having to type this. Wish people would do research before making vids like this. 🤦🏻 He should really take this vid down and remake the vid on how support pla is supposed to be used.
I also came here to say this. Uses so little material just doing the interface. Depending on the model I'm not sure it makes that much difference in time between material changes but definitely a big difference in material usage
Unlike Richard-ys2ns or chris993361, and like many others including Keo, I was unaware that support pla is intended for use as the interface layer. so THANK YOU aeonjoey3d for invaluable information that could well see me actually removing the shrink wrap from my BambuLabs' freebee pack. It's not that people don't research in general, it's that we may not all manage to do the correct research.
@@Richard-ys2ns I find you comment arogenate, expecting people to be perfect. I agree there are lots of things he didn't do right. But the part these videos show is the thought process. Much of his problems stem from thing the cheap printer is not good at.
@@Richard-ys2ns I kind or liked feeling that I knew better for the first time(1st printer 3 months ago)haha At least it was real and not over edited. I give him credit for it
One thing to understand is that PLA will poision the PETG for a while, default purge lengths are NOT enough, I set purge rate for any change from PLA to PETG at 800, and PETG to PLA at 400 (its not as bad going from PETG to PLA), this is what is giving you bad layer strength. also I set the Z distance to 0 and the interface gap to 0, so its a solid fill of the interface, this makes almost smooth bed level of surface finish on the contact point.
I consider myself a beginner of 3D printing and what I learned when experimenting is to not print the whole model out but try with small elements to save on time and filament. We can do a cut in the slicer for this purpose.
Save yourself $$$$ and just use the support material for the interface layer (a selectable option in Bambu Slicer). Bambu's support material is fantastic. I keep a roll of each colour on hand so I can contrast the main filament I am using (colour wise). Personally, I wouldn't use the PLA/PETG combination on a single extruder printer, as the difference in temperatures could possibly lead to a nozzle clog if the PETG is not fully removed when it switches. I would only use this method on an IDEX machine or tool changer. The concept is great on the ideal machine though! :)
You would want to only have the "support/raft interface" be the different material, not the "support/raft base" In addition to the reduction of the Z distance to 0 you also want to change the interface "top inrerface spacing" to 0 too so that the interface layers are "full" Set up like this and with 2 interface layers you should notice that it will actually make 3 full layers : 1 in the base material and 2 in the interface material. A personal adivce is also to set the interface patern to rectilinear (default end up in being concentric, which can leave a gape in the center of the interface layer which impact the finish) Also, a big point about layer adhesion is to set the flush volume between materials way higher than its automatically calculate, the cross material polution will really make it crumbly. I personally set it to 800 for plapetg The automatic calculation for flush volume really only account for colors to avoid visual contamination, it doesnt take materials into consideration For context i printed PETG with PLA as interface like that, but with more simple shapes, with only "flat" overhangs, and it worked really well
thanks, i'm a total new guy who sort of wings it most of the time and this kind of advice is great. Ive been messing around printing for about 3 months and just dont have time to learn the ins and outs of all this stuff before trying it out but I seem to be having good luck so far. I concentrate on woodworking but 3d printing is a super useful tool for me.
I learned a lot about supports once I bought a Bambu machine. Back in the before times when I was running an Ender 3, I hated support. One roll meant all the plastic was the same material, no matter what. It was hellish. But once I bought the X1C and got that support material, it clicked pretty good. I understand better how the support works, where it is needed and how to alter settings when using it. As others pointed out, the Support Material PLA is only meant to be the interface layer where the model touches, rather than the entire support from top to bottom. I've found this really good as the supports vertical parts snap away from the interface layer quite easily and then I can usually remove any interface that is left with the cutters and a bit of patience without leaving marks. This tends to leave a much nicer surface than trying same material supports. As for mixing PLA and PETG, it could just be my bad roll of PETG I've tried to date, but I found it to be an awful idea in a single nozzle system. PETG requires slightly different temps to PLA (while I think the Support PLA is practically identical there) and so all I ended up doing when trying a dual material print was I clogged the nozzle BAD. The PETG expanded inside the extruder and I had to disassemble the entire head to get at it. Was very frustrating. I've never had anything close to that when using dedicated Support Material. With the proper stuff, I've found as long as you can get at the surface it's touching, it comes away pretty clean with fairly minimal effort. Almost none compared to using the same material as the print. My major bugbear with the Support PLA is that they only sell it in .5kg spools. It's just annoying that I can't get a 1kg roll of the stuff. The spool is big enough to hold it, why not make a full 1kg roll an option? Another note, having not read all the comments yet, is that orientation on that model would have likely helped a lot. If you oriented it on the nose vertically, it would give a better fuselage finish, stronger wings, including the upturned parts, and have need far less spread of supports, as they'd only need to be under the tip and the wings. And the angle up of the wings would quickly replace the support with the model itself as it builds that rather shallow angle. It would make the print a little more sensitive to toppling, but I think you'd find the finish would be worth it. I'd have to find the model myself and give it a go to be sure. But I think changing orientation and giving the front curved edge of the wings a quick sand after printing would give an almost flawless finish with far stronger wings. Still, good video, even if the info is a little off on how to use the Support PLA. It's fun learning the foibles of the hobby as we go. Even if it can be a touch expensive when we make a mistake and waste a chunk of filament. God I wish someone near me recycled it properly.
Maybe you should try this : printing at 45 degrees orientation nose up or nose down, with auto supports organic trees (there will be a LOT less supports). You may need to add manually 1 or 2 spots of about 2mm² of supports on the bottom middle of the plane to ensure stability on the top of printing
I printed that exact same model at 45 degrees a few months ago, and it came out awesome. Tail on the build plate, nose up in the air. I also used the organic tree supports. The supports were super easy to remove because there were only a few tree branches of support. The winglets, engines, and everything else are strong as well. The op should definitely consider printing some models that need a lot of supports at an angle on the build plate which also improves the layer lines around rounded parts like the fuselage etc.
Great info. thanks (I want to understand best practices)! I was amazed that Keo said that he tries to have no supports and yet kept going with maximum support surface area.
I’m fairly new to 3D printing. I live in San Antonio, TX and was concerned about moisture since I have an A1 Mini. I bought 2 Creality dual roll dryers - ridiculously expensive (Amazon has a pack for $160) and I now exclusively run PLA and PETG directly from the dryers through the AMS. The quality vastly improved. My son created dice in Blender and we printed them with white PETG and silk purple PLA and adhesion was no problem. However, I think we had problems with mate PLA because it was not dried and since we dry it for hours before each use, use desiccant and vacuum bags for storage, print quality went up by a large margin - even for PLA.
@@KeoPrints mainly with the mate PLA - maybe the plant fibers pull moisture easier. I printed desiccant containers for the spool holes - there is an awesome one on Maker Lab that allows for a lot of air flow. When I started drying, the air moisture was at 60% and the dryer keeps it at 15-18%. The dice, as mentioned, are mainly PETG because it is more uniform. The eyes are recessed and we printed it with PLA Silk and had zero adhesion issues. We printed 21 of those in one go, none of them had any flaws. Even the built-up of the beveled edges is only noticeable if you really look for it since we used the smooth plate from BambuLab. I hope my son gets to make some pictures and upload it to Maker Lab soon. He’s busy getting ready for the next school year… and I need to finish up my dissertation, so, I don’t have time either.
I have had incredible success with PVA as interface. Normal (Auto), Snug, 0 Top Z Distance, 3 Top Interface Layers, 0 Interface Spacing, Rectilinnear or Cube. They pop right off and I just dunk them in water to get rid of the hard-to-remove parts. They come up stupid clean as far as laying on supports go. I personally would not recommend PETG as interface since the purge isn't enough to completely get rid of PETG, causing it to contaminate your PLA and make it significantly weaker.
One of the problems I have encountered using the PLA/PETG combinations is the prime tower coming apart and failing. Using it for the interface only is good, but I still try to get flat interfaces as much as possible.
I’ve found I have to turn up flushing volumes so there is no PLA left in the nozzle or I get bad layer adhesion. Also I’ve found even better results with a concentric interface layer pattern and decreasing the pattern spacing to 0 as well as the z gap. That way it’s printing on a completely flat surface with no gaps. Works great then! Hopefully that makes sense.
All great notes here. The flushing volumes is something that has been coming up and totally makes sense now that I’m hearing it. Something to explore in another video no doubt!
Nice music. Just realized I still have my unused support spool too. I too have done the PLA support for PETG trick and it seems to work, mind you I'm a complete newbee (2 months)and the z trick is the only time i've ever messed with the"numbers and stuff". I just did it without knowing it shouldn't work the way I did it. It did work just interface
Love the videos. I regularly print PETG with PLA supports and what I quickly discovered was Bambu Studios seems to recognise the PLA as the primary or perhaps lowest temp required and will set bed temps to 50-55c can't remember which where PETG is 70c. I had a dozen fail before noticing and changing the bed time on starup and I haven't had a fail since. I hope this helps.
@KeoPrints it is strange. Even if you set interfacing for PLA so that only PETG is touching the build plate it will set bed temps for PLA. The bed adhesion issue was the light bulb moment when I realised the temp posting issue.
Support is not the devil. It is a necessary evil. It is a factor to consider, along with print time, and surface finish, and strength are a few things to compromise. To strengthen the wing tips, probably better to print the plane nose down. Probably take longer to print, more layers. Probably less support.
I have been printing PLA/PETG for a long time. Without significant problems. Probably due to Higher bed temp 55. on the x1, that is not an enclosed printer, the upper layers cool. Just like the self release from the print bed when cool. This happens because the difference in shrink rate. Bed to first layer, or support material to part material. and on the x1c that is a "core xy" rather than a "bed slinger". Jerking the print back and forth causes failures. The big advantage of interface layer material change is more of the print does not need a material change. Less poop, and faster. Great videos. Not a lot of hype, and fluff.
A good hint when printing with support material (in this case PLA and PETG) is make sure the model has good connection the the bed. Assume the model has a connection to the bed. So for the plain built in "take off" position (not the best build direction but easy to understand). Put a flat on the bottom. Either by cutting the curve. or adding material to be sanded away. This concept can be used with other orientations. Using the area attaching to the bed keeps it down, the support material keeps the higer layers supports. If you use the interface layer as the support material. there is not a shrink rate difference. for this particular model in "take off" build you might want a few support posts for the wings. adding a rectangle or cylinder that need to be "cut off" keeps the wing from moving that you can choose where to put the manual support added. the manually added "support" not replacing the auto generated support. After you understand the manual support post
a good support material releases very easy. assume it does not stick. It needs to at least while it is put down. But assume it doesn't it is only providing support so it does not fall. add your own indexing
I used the support interface material just once and haven't used it since, I use PETG as a support interface layer for PLA and vice versa and just one layer of the interface, I haven't used it as prolifically as this jet model though. Most of my parts printing are my own designed parts and I try to design for the 3D printer, I use as few supports as possible.
I have used both Bambu Support Material and the PLA and PETG combo. When using both, I only set the interface material not entire support this makes use of support material much less costly especially when using actual support material. Another issue I make sure I turn off flush to support else you’re going to have issues with the PLA and PETG print with supports breaking. Then other issue I have had is the prime tower coming appear due to bad adhesion of PLA and PETG. I got lucky last prime tower failure and was able to pause print and use some tape to repair prime tower.
That’s odd that you had issues with the prime tower adhesion. Mine stick super bad when doing the multi material stuff so far but again, I am just starting playing with it
Got lucky like this once when printing a Puddle Jumper. Happened to notice a pin was failing to print. Managed to pause the print, add a glob of bluetack on the surface and resume and the pine printed atop the bluetack just fine, minus the two or three layers right at the bottom of it. Made me feel like a legend to be able to save a print in progress like that. But you have to get really lucky to look at just the right time. And this was back on an Ender 3. The print was already a day into it's print time, so I'd have been pissed if it had failed then. Now I can print the same part so much quicker on the Bambu.
@@merkatorix I've not had a prime tower failure when using the Bambu support material. And I use it on just about every single print I've done over the past year.
@@tyrannicpuppy But the PLA, PETG combo sometimes fails (even when not flushing into the supports?) Thanks for your experience. BTW: When you do multicolor, do you have problems that the PETG sometimes plugs the poopshoot? And sometimes the poop still hangs on the hotend and bits are dragged back into the part and resulting in bad looking results.
One trick to use as minimum of the support material, is to only use that as interface layer. That way the supports are the same as the model and you only print (I use 3) interface layers.
You can rotate the model to stand up almost on the nose 45° tilted, then break it apart directly in the slicer at a horizontal plane which is just touching the bottom of the engines. Then you have a fundamentally unsupported printable model. You ideally want to support the wings just a little at a couple spots at the bottom front edge with tree support to reduce model wobble while it prints, and maybe a handful points at a fuselage. The slicer will even flip the part below the cut for you back onto the bed such that it's aligned and can even add alignment features. If you split the wings and engines off as well and print everything vertical, could become a good family activity to assemble it, good part count not too many, i wonder what sort of kid safe adhesive there is that could be used with 3D printed plastics?
Not a bad process. A little outside of the scope of this video but the model would certainly print far better that way. Especially using the tree supports and being a little more intentional with placement like you’re suggesting
FYI, on the AMS product page Bambu says the following: “Filaments that are too soft, brittle or brasive are not compatible with the AMS, such as Bambu PET-CF/ TPU 95A, TPE, PVA (wet), BVOH (wet), and other brands' PET-CF/GF, PA-CF/GF, PAHT-CF/GF,etc. If you prefer to use cardboard spools, we highly recommend using a spool adapter to reduce the risk of slippage and trapped debris in the AMS.”
I have been using PETG as support for a while with great results. I often only use the PETG as an interface to reduce filament changes. As I'm watching this, my PETG supported PLA model failed.
why did you print the whole supports with the PLA support material? you can print the supports and then just use the support material as an interface within the supports and the model. that way you would save a lot of that expensive material
You’re correct. Someone else brought that to my attention as well. I was going to do both just to compare but I ran out of time this past week so I’m thinking that is something to revisit!
@@djwhu77 Yes. In Bambu slicer under the support tab. "Filament for Supports". Keep Support/raft base as default and change Support/raft interface to your support filament.
My experience is kinda different, PETG layer is not as strong as pla, and I have to dry it very often if I expect to get decent prints. And supports on PETG are a breeze to remove always. It must be a brand thing or something.
That is wild, I am glad someone is having success! It must be something with the difference of brand or setup. What brand of filament are you seeing that with? What printer are you using as well? What temps do you usually run?
Lately I was tasked with printing whole lot of boat models for customers, so they need to look very nice. I was thinking about printing it flat on the bed with a lot of support, moved to multi material for the support, but simultaneously I tried single material print with 45deg orientation. Guess what, 45deg orientation wins in quality, print duration and material used. Just print you plane model 45deg on tail, add paint on the support for wings and engines and it should be way better and quicker!
Starts the video annoyed that the wife printed out a random piece of plastic for the kid to play with... proceeds to print the same model multiple times making lots of spaghetti.... for science. Thanks for sharing your findings! PETG printed on top of PLA is like printing on a build plate with zero adhesion. It's just a slippery shelf. So you need features printed in PETG to "anchor" the subsequent applications of PETG or it just turns into spaghetti. That may require some designed supports, or if you can figure out in the slicer how to use 2 different support materials. I haven't messed with that, so I don't know how or if it can be done. I'll have to look into it when I can find some time.
Haha you've got that right. I am fully contributing to our household pollution! The zero adhesion between materials is no joke. That is absolutely the case. Designed supports/anchors totally makes sense as well. Good thoughts!
To use multiple support material: One way is to model the support and change the material for that object. It does get into how to model. This depends on the shapes you need for support. Simple geometry (rectangles and cylinders) can be done in most slicers.
I printed a couple dozen of those airplanes as give away Xmas tree ornaments for 2022 (people started traveling again) I found the best way to print them was... plane nose down on the build plate and minimal painted on support to hold the plane up as it printed.
I am probably going to mess around with it more after tuning in my PETG better because the last one I printed still sucks. I may have to look at reorienting that sucker so thanks for the tips. It has been surprisingly difficult to print successfully!
224 filament changes 😐 Talk about an argument for dual extruders. I just got an X1C with AMS and learned the hard way just how costly (time) those exchanges are between the changes, the purging and wiping etc. Usually you use it just at the interface but when the supports are low I wonder if you don’t save time by printing the whole support in support material. I suspect you do…
You are on to something here. Have a look at the follow up video; I think you will be interested to see how it went th-cam.com/video/i_X1a_q5Mkk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fgXcRBGdm2lCfVSg
the best advice for supports for my ADHD brain is let the thing cool completely. When its warm the supports stick more and are flexible. wait til the next day and they snap off way easier and cleaner.
That’s a fair point as well. This support PLA is super sticky in terms of bed adhesion. Even with a completely cool bed/model, this stuff sticks super well. Otherwise standard PLA on the textured PEI bed after cooling is the most satisfying thing to crack off of there
Overture… how are you getting it to feed in your ams? I have some white that gets stuck all the time when feeding. Doesn’t matter which P1S I use or which ams it comes from, always get failed to load filament. I have no issues with any other brand, just overture.
So the support PLA within the box recieved with printer is just PLA or is water soluble PLA support ? After 22 minutes and 40 seconds it is still not clear ..... Apologies if it's unclear only for me.
I had a hard time with this as well when I found that roll. After looking at the TDS on Bambu's site, from what I can tell, it is simply PLA. So not soluble, nothing super fancy beyond PLA. That said, I am sure there is something added to it because it did seem a bit more flexible and sure stuck to the bed much better than standard PLA. Who knows really but super interesting
PVA sucks... really hate that stuff now after trying for weeks to print a miniature on my A1 Now I've ordered some PETG from seeing that other video you refered to, and I really hope that will make it possible to print. Supports isn't bad, it just needs to be easier to remove than when using PLA to support it, and I have high hopes! Oh, and just a tip... the "looking down" on having more plastic in your house, or that your son wants more to play with... comes off really badly, I'm hoping you didn't mean it like that, but it just seems annoying... You have a 3d printer and a TH-cam page where you talk about printing, wouldn't you want everyone to print more themselves? :P Loved the conclusion however - Supports are insanely hard to do with FDM printers - I used to have a resin printer, where it was a lot easier! I'll let you know what I get done with the PETG / PLA try with 0.2mm nozzle and specific miniature dialed in settings... One last thing, you might want to look into PLA Meta from Sunlu - I printed a mini, with supports, with that, and it was both easy to remove the supports and the miniature is INCREDIBLY detailed with no failures (even on tiny bits) - I will be trying with the PETG and PLA Meta to print my miniatures, as I think that might be the best way.
Lots of good stuff here! I’m glad you’re going to try your hand at PETG. That’s awesome! As for the plastic problem, it is less of a plastic waste thing and more of a house is full of toys that don’t get put away thing haha. I see how it came across that way now As for the PLA Meta, I’ve never heard of it so I’ll have to check it out. Please do tell me how your testing goes though. It’s super interesting hearing from everyone!
Thanks for the video. I've not yet tried using a different filament as support material. I agree, results will most definitely depend on the model and orientation.
You’ve got that right! I was just hoping this would be a solution that didn’t require the level of tinkering that it did but oh well. It was a super fun idea
I haven't tried this, but it might be helpful to use a PLA+ with a higher melting temperature as the support interface. The lower temp PLA might be less likely to bond to it.
You've got that right. Perhaps I'll give that a shot as well because that will absolutely do better than that PLA model. Poor thing didn't stand a chance.
I've been trying to print PETG interferance layers on to PLA. Works great on small models, horrible on anything with large surface area (20x20cm). Real pickle. Always seems to pull back.
This is absolutely a thing! I wanted to print the models both ways just to compare full supports vs interface but I ran out of time. That was my guess with the interface though. Based on what I found, I would imagine that would have been the case. Sounds like that was your experience as well.
Howdy howdy howdy, the only piece of advice I was given by other was. only use the support stuff as the interface layer and use normal stuff for all other layers.
This is a great point. I was going to do that and compare the time difference between full and just interface multi material supports because I am certain that simply doing the support material at only the interface would save TONS of time. Less switching back and forth every layer. Maybe on the next one I'll carve out some more time for that method because I am sure it is far better. Good note!
Did a miridon model with its tail, etc. petg support interface was just to many different interface spots, and it does seem to be simpler model friendly and nothing else as of yet.
Good thought. If ASA wasn't as expensive as the support PLA, that would totally make sense. If ABS wasn't so finicky I might give that a shot but PLA doesn't typically like being enclosed in the heated chamber. This would be super fun to try either way. I hadn't thought about ASA at all!
Hmmmm Bambu Studio/Orca/Prusa's auto-orient did exactly what the other print profiles in there did - standing the plane up on it's back end straight -up, changing to tree supports only requires 16g vs 26g, and results in a super clean model. Just think this was a bad use-case for the support material. I use the support material to print coins with a 0.2 nozzle, and it works great. it isn't easy to remove, but it provides detailed bottom surfaces and flat bottom surfaces. most people give up because it's hard to remove.
I would absolutely agree. This model did not show off the potential that well. I am glad that I gave it a shot though as I wanted to push it a bit and see what kind of limits this concept has. Boy were there limits
Agreed. Supports are trash. The worst part about getting into these printers and going through your thingyverse bookmark collection was realizing just how many of these prints arent practical or just require a resin printer or something to be possible. I was starting to get the impression that some of these models or uploaders haven't actually printed these before or at least played around with the design. Some of these models will end up with gapping holes just after trying to slice it and more than a few I've had to "modify" enough to work around these limitations. Just recently got into printing, barely made a few models myself so far. That said, I've already adopted the '0 support' lifestyle and haven't even broke the seal on the included trial roll.
You’re one of us now. That no support life is really the best way to live. You’re totally correct about a lot of the models on thingiverse. Good models, not exactly all optimized for FDM
you should only print interface with support material also, you need much more purge from pla to petg as petg gets contaminated with pla and gets weak and bad adhesion and...
@@KeoPrints I am using this on IDEX for years, tried on X1C and PETG was super week .. took me some thinking to figure out it is contamination... when you increase purge to MAX when moving from PLA to PETG (other direction is not important as who cares if support is weak) the part comes out ok :) .. weard that it takes that much to totally purge PLA from the nozzle but even small amount makes PETG much weaker so .. open the matrix for purge and get it to max value from PLA to PETG ... then you can try lowering the purge to find setting that purges less but still work, I value my time too much :D I just moved it to max :D
You probably would've had better success on the failed model if it had been printed on your xy core machine rather than your bed slinger. Good video though. I need to try it with the still unopened pack of PLA support material that came with my X1C.
You’ve got that right. The bed slingers sure do like to shake some stuff free don’t they. Open that filament up and give it a shot. I think it’s pretty good stuff overall. I am fairly impressed
I absolutely hate how good bambu has their own materials dialed in. I mean its an incredible thing but it makes me not want to use anything else. Anyways I have not tried their PLA support material and just started dabbling with petg as a interface layer. Anyways with this model in particular its a rough one for that support material since it needs support on nearly every layer so its not really using it as an interface layer. When its used like that its probably worth the money. But on a model like this its probably worth just using PETG and making sure you set the purge values high enough.
Don't print the entire support structure with expensive support material. Only the interface lahers. Also, that stuff dissolves in water (slowly) so you can support stuff inside of other stuff. Did you even read the instructions?
You are correct! I was planning to do a comparison between full and only interface supports but the production timeframe did not allow for it this time! Fear not, the comment section forever has me covered
Printing both PLA and PETG through the same nozzle is a recipe for disaster. If it's not primed properly, they'll contaminate each other and result in a crumbly mess that fails to adhere to either PLA or PETG. You can hard prime it between prints to get everything out, but with a system like AMS, to have enough purge every swap you'll have to waste a lot more filament than Bambu is willing to let you. AMS is not a multi-material system, it's a multi-colour system, when you replace blue PLA with yellow PLA you won't notice that there's a layer that is a tiny bit green after a swap, but with different materials that's not the case at all.
You are correct on the purge volumes for sure. I had never experimented with multi material stuff on the AMS so it was fun to play around. Standard purge values between colors on the same material has been perfectly fine but like you are noting, the purge for dissimilar filament does require some special values/tuning. Super interesting stuff
Using support material like on this model is SLOW!!! Each layer has to print the model, then the support, then the model, then support, etc. It is like color changes from the AMS. The only way to do something like this efficiently is to have a printer that has two extruders that work at the same time.
I’ve seen a few of your vids. I like them, but you should warn people that you are clueless. Maybe the name of the channel should be “The clueless 3d printer guy” 😂
Your using the PLA support material wrong. Don't print the entire support out of it. You just print the interface layer with it. That makes a roll last a very long time.
That’s what I am hearing lol. I will still be trying the model again after tuning in the PETG better so I think that’s what I’ll be doing. Sounds like the way to go
I appreciate the content in this video. It is way too long. I ended up not watching the whole thing and just reading the comments for the actual information. Apparently if I would have watched only the first part I would have done things wrong. :/
Too long?! Well different strokes for different folks I suppose but there was a lot of information covered in this one. I am actually releasing a follow up to this one in the next day or two. Once that’s out, I’ll put out some shorts distilling the info down to a few short format videos. I hope you check them out!
I'm a detail guy, so REALLY appreciate your vids!!! I'm relatively new, but putting in tons of hours learing over the past few months. Today, I discovered a way of ELIMINATING supports if you allow your creative self to ponder, "What if I?" I was looking for Alaske Airlines aircraft to print, when I just happened on yours, and realized 'I would be running into the same problems!! Then, I remembered the RED PEPPER video with NO supports using the "CUT" tool in Bambu and Orca. Here's the vid. Hope this also give you some ideas. I can't see why THIS woudn't work cutting just obove the engines, then lying BOTH flat sides on the bed. Engines "up" on one half, Tail "up" on the other. th-cam.com/video/rGxQeonmFpA/w-d-xo.html Thanks again for your great vids!!!
No offense, and I have no idea how the algorithm works so maybe this is bad advice, but as a content consumer I'd much rather you wait until you have a good finished video to share than to crank out a new one every week 🤷♂
Ahh yes but then I would perpetually be tweaking and they would never come out haha. At some point I’ve just gotta be happy with what I have and move onto the next project. And of course there is the algorithm like you mentioned. It does like the consistency.
You don't print the supports themselves with the support for PLA material, you print the interface layer only. the first time you do it it seems hidden, but people mistake the whole process and print the supports with ths support material. it takes barely a few grams (or fractions of a gram) to print the support 'interface' - it also toggles all the settings needed to make it easier to remove - the latest firmware updated the gap to make it even easier.
Saved me having to type this. Wish people would do research before making vids like this. 🤦🏻
He should really take this vid down and remake the vid on how support pla is supposed to be used.
I also came here to say this. Uses so little material just doing the interface. Depending on the model I'm not sure it makes that much difference in time between material changes but definitely a big difference in material usage
Unlike Richard-ys2ns or chris993361, and like many others including Keo, I was unaware that support pla is intended for use as the interface layer. so THANK YOU aeonjoey3d for invaluable information that could well see me actually removing the shrink wrap from my BambuLabs' freebee pack. It's not that people don't research in general, it's that we may not all manage to do the correct research.
@@Richard-ys2ns I find you comment arogenate, expecting people to be perfect. I agree there are lots of things he didn't do right. But the part these videos show is the thought process. Much of his problems stem from thing the cheap printer is not good at.
@@Richard-ys2ns I kind or liked feeling that I knew better for the first time(1st printer 3 months ago)haha At least it was real and not over edited. I give him credit for it
One thing to understand is that PLA will poision the PETG for a while, default purge lengths are NOT enough, I set purge rate for any change from PLA to PETG at 800, and PETG to PLA at 400 (its not as bad going from PETG to PLA), this is what is giving you bad layer strength. also I set the Z distance to 0 and the interface gap to 0, so its a solid fill of the interface, this makes almost smooth bed level of surface finish on the contact point.
I consider myself a beginner of 3D printing and what I learned when experimenting is to not print the whole model out but try with small elements to save on time and filament. We can do a cut in the slicer for this purpose.
Save yourself $$$$ and just use the support material for the interface layer (a selectable option in Bambu Slicer). Bambu's support material is fantastic. I keep a roll of each colour on hand so I can contrast the main filament I am using (colour wise). Personally, I wouldn't use the PLA/PETG combination on a single extruder printer, as the difference in temperatures could possibly lead to a nozzle clog if the PETG is not fully removed when it switches. I would only use this method on an IDEX machine or tool changer. The concept is great on the ideal machine though! :)
You would want to only have the "support/raft interface" be the different material, not the "support/raft base"
In addition to the reduction of the Z distance to 0 you also want to change the interface "top inrerface spacing" to 0 too so that the interface layers are "full"
Set up like this and with 2 interface layers you should notice that it will actually make 3 full layers : 1 in the base material and 2 in the interface material.
A personal adivce is also to set the interface patern to rectilinear (default end up in being concentric, which can leave a gape in the center of the interface layer
which impact the finish)
Also, a big point about layer adhesion is to set the flush volume between materials way higher than its automatically calculate, the cross material polution will really make it crumbly. I personally set it to 800 for plapetg
The automatic calculation for flush volume really only account for colors to avoid visual contamination, it doesnt take materials into consideration
For context i printed PETG with PLA as interface like that, but with more simple shapes, with only "flat" overhangs, and it worked really well
Good notes here. I hadn't thought about the flush volumes either. That is interesting and makes a lot of sense!
thanks, i'm a total new guy who sort of wings it most of the time and this kind of advice is great. Ive been messing around printing for about 3 months and just dont have time to learn the ins and outs of all this stuff before trying it out but I seem to be having good luck so far. I concentrate on woodworking but 3d printing is a super useful tool for me.
You did it wrong. The pla support is only meant to be used as an interface layer.
Yes but on this model it needs support on almost every layer so its not exactly the best example for using the material just as an interface layer.
I learned a lot about supports once I bought a Bambu machine. Back in the before times when I was running an Ender 3, I hated support. One roll meant all the plastic was the same material, no matter what. It was hellish. But once I bought the X1C and got that support material, it clicked pretty good. I understand better how the support works, where it is needed and how to alter settings when using it. As others pointed out, the Support Material PLA is only meant to be the interface layer where the model touches, rather than the entire support from top to bottom. I've found this really good as the supports vertical parts snap away from the interface layer quite easily and then I can usually remove any interface that is left with the cutters and a bit of patience without leaving marks. This tends to leave a much nicer surface than trying same material supports.
As for mixing PLA and PETG, it could just be my bad roll of PETG I've tried to date, but I found it to be an awful idea in a single nozzle system. PETG requires slightly different temps to PLA (while I think the Support PLA is practically identical there) and so all I ended up doing when trying a dual material print was I clogged the nozzle BAD. The PETG expanded inside the extruder and I had to disassemble the entire head to get at it. Was very frustrating. I've never had anything close to that when using dedicated Support Material. With the proper stuff, I've found as long as you can get at the surface it's touching, it comes away pretty clean with fairly minimal effort. Almost none compared to using the same material as the print.
My major bugbear with the Support PLA is that they only sell it in .5kg spools. It's just annoying that I can't get a 1kg roll of the stuff. The spool is big enough to hold it, why not make a full 1kg roll an option?
Another note, having not read all the comments yet, is that orientation on that model would have likely helped a lot. If you oriented it on the nose vertically, it would give a better fuselage finish, stronger wings, including the upturned parts, and have need far less spread of supports, as they'd only need to be under the tip and the wings. And the angle up of the wings would quickly replace the support with the model itself as it builds that rather shallow angle. It would make the print a little more sensitive to toppling, but I think you'd find the finish would be worth it. I'd have to find the model myself and give it a go to be sure. But I think changing orientation and giving the front curved edge of the wings a quick sand after printing would give an almost flawless finish with far stronger wings.
Still, good video, even if the info is a little off on how to use the Support PLA. It's fun learning the foibles of the hobby as we go. Even if it can be a touch expensive when we make a mistake and waste a chunk of filament. God I wish someone near me recycled it properly.
Lots of great notes here! Thanks for taking the time to stop by friend
Maybe you should try this : printing at 45 degrees orientation nose up or nose down, with auto supports organic trees (there will be a LOT less supports). You may need to add manually 1 or 2 spots of about 2mm² of supports on the bottom middle of the plane to ensure stability on the top of printing
Tree supports seem like a good idea on this one. Perhaps ill have a look at them using the standard orientation as well as some others like that.
@@KeoPrints Tree supports are awesome. They do their job and are super easy to remove, sometimes not even leaving a mark.
I printed that exact same model at 45 degrees a few months ago, and it came out awesome. Tail on the build plate, nose up in the air. I also used the organic tree supports. The supports were super easy to remove because there were only a few tree branches of support. The winglets, engines, and everything else are strong as well. The op should definitely consider printing some models that need a lot of supports at an angle on the build plate which also improves the layer lines around rounded parts like the fuselage etc.
Great info. thanks (I want to understand best practices)! I was amazed that Keo said that he tries to have no supports and yet kept going with maximum support surface area.
I’m fairly new to 3D printing. I live in San Antonio, TX and was concerned about moisture since I have an A1 Mini. I bought 2 Creality dual roll dryers - ridiculously expensive (Amazon has a pack for $160) and I now exclusively run PLA and PETG directly from the dryers through the AMS.
The quality vastly improved. My son created dice in Blender and we printed them with white PETG and silk purple PLA and adhesion was no problem. However, I think we had problems with mate PLA because it was not dried and since we dry it for hours before each use, use desiccant and vacuum bags for storage, print quality went up by a large margin - even for PLA.
Awesome! That’s crazy that you’re seeing results that drastic even for PLA
@@KeoPrints mainly with the mate PLA - maybe the plant fibers pull moisture easier. I printed desiccant containers for the spool holes - there is an awesome one on Maker Lab that allows for a lot of air flow. When I started drying, the air moisture was at 60% and the dryer keeps it at 15-18%. The dice, as mentioned, are mainly PETG because it is more uniform. The eyes are recessed and we printed it with PLA Silk and had zero adhesion issues. We printed 21 of those in one go, none of them had any flaws. Even the built-up of the beveled edges is only noticeable if you really look for it since we used the smooth plate from BambuLab. I hope my son gets to make some pictures and upload it to Maker Lab soon. He’s busy getting ready for the next school year… and I need to finish up my dissertation, so, I don’t have time either.
I have had incredible success with PVA as interface.
Normal (Auto), Snug, 0 Top Z Distance, 3 Top Interface Layers, 0 Interface Spacing, Rectilinnear or Cube.
They pop right off and I just dunk them in water to get rid of the hard-to-remove parts. They come up stupid clean as far as laying on supports go. I personally would not recommend PETG as interface since the purge isn't enough to completely get rid of PETG, causing it to contaminate your PLA and make it significantly weaker.
That contamination is a real issue! I just revisited this with an updated video a week or so ago and talk about that exact issue!
One of the problems I have encountered using the PLA/PETG combinations is the prime tower coming apart and failing. Using it for the interface only is good, but I still try to get flat interfaces as much as possible.
I had the same issue. PLA and PETG do not want to hang out together at all
@@KeoPrints yep. They are not besties.
I’ve found I have to turn up flushing volumes so there is no PLA left in the nozzle or I get bad layer adhesion. Also I’ve found even better results with a concentric interface layer pattern and decreasing the pattern spacing to 0 as well as the z gap. That way it’s printing on a completely flat surface with no gaps. Works great then! Hopefully that makes sense.
All great notes here. The flushing volumes is something that has been coming up and totally makes sense now that I’m hearing it. Something to explore in another video no doubt!
Nice music. Just realized I still have my unused support spool too. I too have done the PLA support for PETG trick and it seems to work, mind you I'm a complete newbee (2 months)and the z trick is the only time i've ever messed with the"numbers and stuff". I just did it without knowing it shouldn't work the way I did it. It did work just interface
Good deal! Glad to hear you’re diving in. Happy to have you around friend!
Love the videos. I regularly print PETG with PLA supports and what I quickly discovered was Bambu Studios seems to recognise the PLA as the primary or perhaps lowest temp required and will set bed temps to 50-55c can't remember which where PETG is 70c. I had a dozen fail before noticing and changing the bed time on starup and I haven't had a fail since. I hope this helps.
That’s interesting. I have never thought about what the bed temp would be for something like that when you’re straddling materials
@KeoPrints it is strange. Even if you set interfacing for PLA so that only PETG is touching the build plate it will set bed temps for PLA. The bed adhesion issue was the light bulb moment when I realised the temp posting issue.
Support is not the devil. It is a necessary evil. It is a factor to consider, along with print time, and surface finish, and strength are a few things to compromise. To strengthen the wing tips, probably better to print the plane nose down. Probably take longer to print, more layers. Probably less support.
I have been printing PLA/PETG for a long time. Without significant problems. Probably due to Higher bed temp 55. on the x1, that is not an enclosed printer, the upper layers cool. Just like the self release from the print bed when cool. This happens because the difference in shrink rate. Bed to first layer, or support material to part material.
and on the x1c that is a "core xy" rather than a "bed slinger". Jerking the print back and forth causes failures.
The big advantage of interface layer material change is more of the print does not need a material change. Less poop, and faster.
Great videos. Not a lot of hype, and fluff.
Good notes here. Thanks for taking the time! Happy to have you hanging around
A good hint when printing with support material (in this case PLA and PETG) is make sure the model has good connection the the bed. Assume the model has a connection to the bed. So for the plain built in "take off" position (not the best build direction but easy to understand). Put a flat on the bottom. Either by cutting the curve. or adding material to be sanded away. This concept can be used with other orientations. Using the area attaching to the bed keeps it down, the support material keeps the higer layers supports. If you use the interface layer as the support material. there is not a shrink rate difference.
for this particular model in "take off" build you might want a few support posts for the wings. adding a rectangle or cylinder that need to be "cut off" keeps the wing from moving that you can choose where to put the manual support added. the manually added "support" not replacing the auto generated support.
After you understand the manual support post
a good support material releases very easy. assume it does not stick. It needs to at least while it is put down. But assume it doesn't it is only providing support so it does not fall. add your own indexing
I used the support interface material just once and haven't used it since, I use PETG as a support interface layer for PLA and vice versa and just one layer of the interface, I haven't used it as prolifically as this jet model though.
Most of my parts printing are my own designed parts and I try to design for the 3D printer, I use as few supports as possible.
Agreed. Fewer supports is always going to be better. Always
I have used both Bambu Support Material and the PLA and PETG combo. When using both, I only set the interface material not entire support this makes use of support material much less costly especially when using actual support material. Another issue I make sure I turn off flush to support else you’re going to have issues with the PLA and PETG print with supports breaking.
Then other issue I have had is the prime tower coming appear due to bad adhesion of PLA and PETG. I got lucky last prime tower failure and was able to pause print and use some tape to repair prime tower.
That’s odd that you had issues with the prime tower adhesion. Mine stick super bad when doing the multi material stuff so far but again, I am just starting playing with it
Got lucky like this once when printing a Puddle Jumper. Happened to notice a pin was failing to print. Managed to pause the print, add a glob of bluetack on the surface and resume and the pine printed atop the bluetack just fine, minus the two or three layers right at the bottom of it. Made me feel like a legend to be able to save a print in progress like that. But you have to get really lucky to look at just the right time. And this was back on an Ender 3. The print was already a day into it's print time, so I'd have been pissed if it had failed then. Now I can print the same part so much quicker on the Bambu.
The prime tower problems don't happen with the actual Bambu support material?
@@merkatorix I've not had a prime tower failure when using the Bambu support material. And I use it on just about every single print I've done over the past year.
@@tyrannicpuppy But the PLA, PETG combo sometimes fails (even when not flushing into the supports?)
Thanks for your experience.
BTW: When you do multicolor, do you have problems that the PETG sometimes plugs the poopshoot? And sometimes the poop still hangs on the hotend and bits are dragged back into the part and resulting in bad looking results.
One trick to use as minimum of the support material, is to only use that as interface layer. That way the supports are the same as the model and you only print (I use 3) interface layers.
You’ve got that right. Much faster print time as well!
You can rotate the model to stand up almost on the nose 45° tilted, then break it apart directly in the slicer at a horizontal plane which is just touching the bottom of the engines. Then you have a fundamentally unsupported printable model. You ideally want to support the wings just a little at a couple spots at the bottom front edge with tree support to reduce model wobble while it prints, and maybe a handful points at a fuselage. The slicer will even flip the part below the cut for you back onto the bed such that it's aligned and can even add alignment features.
If you split the wings and engines off as well and print everything vertical, could become a good family activity to assemble it, good part count not too many, i wonder what sort of kid safe adhesive there is that could be used with 3D printed plastics?
Not a bad process. A little outside of the scope of this video but the model would certainly print far better that way. Especially using the tree supports and being a little more intentional with placement like you’re suggesting
FYI, on the AMS product page Bambu says the following: “Filaments that are too soft, brittle or brasive are not compatible with the AMS, such as Bambu PET-CF/ TPU 95A, TPE, PVA (wet), BVOH (wet), and other brands' PET-CF/GF, PA-CF/GF, PAHT-CF/GF,etc. If you prefer to use cardboard spools, we highly recommend using a spool adapter to reduce the risk of slippage and trapped debris in the AMS.”
I have been using PETG as support for a while with great results. I often only use the PETG as an interface to reduce filament changes. As I'm watching this, my PETG supported PLA model failed.
Such is life. Check out the follow up video as well!
why did you print the whole supports with the PLA support material? you can print the supports and then just use the support material as an interface within the supports and the model. that way you would save a lot of that expensive material
You’re correct. Someone else brought that to my attention as well. I was going to do both just to compare but I ran out of time this past week so I’m thinking that is something to revisit!
How does one do this? Is there a slicer setting/ checkbox or something?
@@djwhu77 Yes. In Bambu slicer under the support tab. "Filament for Supports". Keep Support/raft base as default and change Support/raft interface to your support filament.
My experience is kinda different, PETG layer is not as strong as pla, and I have to dry it very often if I expect to get decent prints. And supports on PETG are a breeze to remove always. It must be a brand thing or something.
That is wild, I am glad someone is having success! It must be something with the difference of brand or setup. What brand of filament are you seeing that with? What printer are you using as well? What temps do you usually run?
Lately I was tasked with printing whole lot of boat models for customers, so they need to look very nice. I was thinking about printing it flat on the bed with a lot of support, moved to multi material for the support, but simultaneously I tried single material print with 45deg orientation.
Guess what, 45deg orientation wins in quality, print duration and material used.
Just print you plane model 45deg on tail, add paint on the support for wings and engines and it should be way better and quicker!
That’s what I’m hearing a lot of. I will be reprinting once I tune in my PETG better for this machine so that’s sounding like that’s the way for sure
Starts the video annoyed that the wife printed out a random piece of plastic for the kid to play with... proceeds to print the same model multiple times making lots of spaghetti.... for science.
Thanks for sharing your findings!
PETG printed on top of PLA is like printing on a build plate with zero adhesion. It's just a slippery shelf. So you need features printed in PETG to "anchor" the subsequent applications of PETG or it just turns into spaghetti. That may require some designed supports, or if you can figure out in the slicer how to use 2 different support materials. I haven't messed with that, so I don't know how or if it can be done. I'll have to look into it when I can find some time.
Haha you've got that right. I am fully contributing to our household pollution!
The zero adhesion between materials is no joke. That is absolutely the case. Designed supports/anchors totally makes sense as well. Good thoughts!
To use multiple support material: One way is to model the support and change the material for that object. It does get into how to model. This depends on the shapes you need for support. Simple geometry (rectangles and cylinders) can be done in most slicers.
I printed a couple dozen of those airplanes as give away Xmas tree ornaments for 2022 (people started traveling again) I found the best way to print them was... plane nose down on the build plate and minimal painted on support to hold the plane up as it printed.
I am probably going to mess around with it more after tuning in my PETG better because the last one I printed still sucks. I may have to look at reorienting that sucker so thanks for the tips. It has been surprisingly difficult to print successfully!
224 filament changes 😐 Talk about an argument for dual extruders.
I just got an X1C with AMS and learned the hard way just how costly (time) those exchanges are between the changes, the purging and wiping etc.
Usually you use it just at the interface but when the supports are low I wonder if you don’t save time by printing the whole support in support material. I suspect you do…
You are on to something here. Have a look at the follow up video; I think you will be interested to see how it went
th-cam.com/video/i_X1a_q5Mkk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fgXcRBGdm2lCfVSg
the best advice for supports for my ADHD brain is let the thing cool completely. When its warm the supports stick more and are flexible. wait til the next day and they snap off way easier and cleaner.
That’s a fair point as well. This support PLA is super sticky in terms of bed adhesion. Even with a completely cool bed/model, this stuff sticks super well. Otherwise standard PLA on the textured PEI bed after cooling is the most satisfying thing to crack off of there
Overture… how are you getting it to feed in your ams? I have some white that gets stuck all the time when feeding. Doesn’t matter which P1S I use or which ams it comes from, always get failed to load filament. I have no issues with any other brand, just overture.
I hear that so much but I’ve never had an issue with the cardboard spools. It’s crazy
So the support PLA within the box recieved with printer is just PLA or is water soluble PLA support ? After 22 minutes and 40 seconds it is still not clear ..... Apologies if it's unclear only for me.
I had a hard time with this as well when I found that roll. After looking at the TDS on Bambu's site, from what I can tell, it is simply PLA. So not soluble, nothing super fancy beyond PLA. That said, I am sure there is something added to it because it did seem a bit more flexible and sure stuck to the bed much better than standard PLA. Who knows really but super interesting
PVA sucks... really hate that stuff now after trying for weeks to print a miniature on my A1
Now I've ordered some PETG from seeing that other video you refered to, and I really hope that will make it possible to print.
Supports isn't bad, it just needs to be easier to remove than when using PLA to support it, and I have high hopes!
Oh, and just a tip... the "looking down" on having more plastic in your house, or that your son wants more to play with... comes off really badly, I'm hoping you didn't mean it like that, but it just seems annoying... You have a 3d printer and a TH-cam page where you talk about printing, wouldn't you want everyone to print more themselves? :P
Loved the conclusion however - Supports are insanely hard to do with FDM printers - I used to have a resin printer, where it was a lot easier!
I'll let you know what I get done with the PETG / PLA try with 0.2mm nozzle and specific miniature dialed in settings...
One last thing, you might want to look into PLA Meta from Sunlu - I printed a mini, with supports, with that, and it was both easy to remove the supports and the miniature is INCREDIBLY detailed with no failures (even on tiny bits) - I will be trying with the PETG and PLA Meta to print my miniatures, as I think that might be the best way.
Lots of good stuff here! I’m glad you’re going to try your hand at PETG. That’s awesome!
As for the plastic problem, it is less of a plastic waste thing and more of a house is full of toys that don’t get put away thing haha. I see how it came across that way now
As for the PLA Meta, I’ve never heard of it so I’ll have to check it out. Please do tell me how your testing goes though. It’s super interesting hearing from everyone!
Looking at the Bambu PVA product page it specifically says it is compatible with AMS, so… 🤷♂
Thanks for the video. I've not yet tried using a different filament as support material. I agree, results will most definitely depend on the model and orientation.
You’ve got that right! I was just hoping this would be a solution that didn’t require the level of tinkering that it did but oh well. It was a super fun idea
I haven't tried this, but it might be helpful to use a PLA+ with a higher melting temperature as the support interface. The lower temp PLA might be less likely to bond to it.
That’s an interesting point as well. The higher temp totally makes sense
use silk pla for supports comes off super easy
Better layer adhesion with PETG? I know it the other way around.
As far as I’m aware, PETG bonds better. PLA is much more rigid but PETG printing hotter also helps it stick to itself a bit better
For kid toy durability, wouldn't TPU be a better option?
You've got that right. Perhaps I'll give that a shot as well because that will absolutely do better than that PLA model. Poor thing didn't stand a chance.
I've been trying to print PETG interferance layers on to PLA. Works great on small models, horrible on anything with large surface area (20x20cm). Real pickle. Always seems to pull back.
This is absolutely a thing! I wanted to print the models both ways just to compare full supports vs interface but I ran out of time. That was my guess with the interface though. Based on what I found, I would imagine that would have been the case. Sounds like that was your experience as well.
Howdy howdy howdy,
the only piece of advice I was given by other was.
only use the support stuff as the interface layer and use normal stuff for all other layers.
This is a great point. I was going to do that and compare the time difference between full and just interface multi material supports because I am certain that simply doing the support material at only the interface would save TONS of time. Less switching back and forth every layer. Maybe on the next one I'll carve out some more time for that method because I am sure it is far better. Good note!
Did a miridon model with its tail, etc. petg support interface was just to many different interface spots, and it does seem to be simpler model friendly and nothing else as of yet.
I dont believe supports to be an evil, especially since i use petg as supports for pla which works perfectly every time
Try printing the plane with its fuselage pointing downwards...
Solid interface layer.
Use ASA and just go with the Bambu’s settings for ASA supports. I find that the supports come off really easily.
Good thought. If ASA wasn't as expensive as the support PLA, that would totally make sense. If ABS wasn't so finicky I might give that a shot but PLA doesn't typically like being enclosed in the heated chamber. This would be super fun to try either way. I hadn't thought about ASA at all!
I need to watch all of your other videos. 👍👍
Thanks for hanging out! I would love it if you did
Hmmmm Bambu Studio/Orca/Prusa's auto-orient did exactly what the other print profiles in there did - standing the plane up on it's back end straight -up, changing to tree supports only requires 16g vs 26g, and results in a super clean model. Just think this was a bad use-case for the support material. I use the support material to print coins with a 0.2 nozzle, and it works great. it isn't easy to remove, but it provides detailed bottom surfaces and flat bottom surfaces. most people give up because it's hard to remove.
I would absolutely agree. This model did not show off the potential that well. I am glad that I gave it a shot though as I wanted to push it a bit and see what kind of limits this concept has. Boy were there limits
Agreed. Supports are trash. The worst part about getting into these printers and going through your thingyverse bookmark collection was realizing just how many of these prints arent practical or just require a resin printer or something to be possible. I was starting to get the impression that some of these models or uploaders haven't actually printed these before or at least played around with the design. Some of these models will end up with gapping holes just after trying to slice it and more than a few I've had to "modify" enough to work around these limitations. Just recently got into printing, barely made a few models myself so far. That said, I've already adopted the '0 support' lifestyle and haven't even broke the seal on the included trial roll.
You’re one of us now. That no support life is really the best way to live. You’re totally correct about a lot of the models on thingiverse. Good models, not exactly all optimized for FDM
Got half a roll with my ams but dam it sticks just as much as normal pla.
you should only print interface with support material
also, you need much more purge from pla to petg as petg gets contaminated with pla and gets weak and bad adhesion and...
Yes that is what I am hearing. I hadn’t considered the contamination issue but it totally makes sense!
@@KeoPrints I am using this on IDEX for years, tried on X1C and PETG was super week .. took me some thinking to figure out it is contamination... when you increase purge to MAX when moving from PLA to PETG (other direction is not important as who cares if support is weak) the part comes out ok :) .. weard that it takes that much to totally purge PLA from the nozzle but even small amount makes PETG much weaker so .. open the matrix for purge and get it to max value from PLA to PETG ... then you can try lowering the purge to find setting that purges less but still work, I value my time too much :D I just moved it to max :D
So is support PLA, any good, on it's own?
You know, I’m not really sure how it does on its own. Might have to give it a shot
You probably would've had better success on the failed model if it had been printed on your xy core machine rather than your bed slinger. Good video though. I need to try it with the still unopened pack of PLA support material that came with my X1C.
You’ve got that right. The bed slingers sure do like to shake some stuff free don’t they.
Open that filament up and give it a shot. I think it’s pretty good stuff overall. I am fairly impressed
I absolutely hate how good bambu has their own materials dialed in. I mean its an incredible thing but it makes me not want to use anything else. Anyways I have not tried their PLA support material and just started dabbling with petg as a interface layer. Anyways with this model in particular its a rough one for that support material since it needs support on nearly every layer so its not really using it as an interface layer. When its used like that its probably worth the money. But on a model like this its probably worth just using PETG and making sure you set the purge values high enough.
All good notes here. Have you checked out the follow up video that I just posted a week or so ago? I gave it another shot!
@@KeoPrints I have not! This was just in my recommended. But I will check it out.
Don't print the entire support structure with expensive support material. Only the interface lahers. Also, that stuff dissolves in water (slowly) so you can support stuff inside of other stuff. Did you even read the instructions?
You are correct! I was planning to do a comparison between full and only interface supports but the production timeframe did not allow for it this time! Fear not, the comment section forever has me covered
Have you considered tree supports?
Yes, I typically prefer them. I should have used them for this model for sure. Rookie mistake on my part!
Printing both PLA and PETG through the same nozzle is a recipe for disaster. If it's not primed properly, they'll contaminate each other and result in a crumbly mess that fails to adhere to either PLA or PETG. You can hard prime it between prints to get everything out, but with a system like AMS, to have enough purge every swap you'll have to waste a lot more filament than Bambu is willing to let you. AMS is not a multi-material system, it's a multi-colour system, when you replace blue PLA with yellow PLA you won't notice that there's a layer that is a tiny bit green after a swap, but with different materials that's not the case at all.
You are correct on the purge volumes for sure. I had never experimented with multi material stuff on the AMS so it was fun to play around. Standard purge values between colors on the same material has been perfectly fine but like you are noting, the purge for dissimilar filament does require some special values/tuning. Super interesting stuff
Using support material like on this model is SLOW!!! Each layer has to print the model, then the support, then the model, then support, etc. It is like color changes from the AMS. The only way to do something like this efficiently is to have a printer that has two extruders that work at the same time.
Since you are running tests to see "what happens ", why don't you print only a small part of the model instead of the whole thing?
Oh I am sure that is a better idea but I am not always one to think something through that well
I’ve seen a few of your vids. I like them, but you should warn people that you are clueless. Maybe the name of the channel should be “The clueless 3d printer guy” 😂
I feel like it doesn’t take very long to come to that conclusion as it is!
nose down on build plate with tree supports
Ahh I didn't even think about tree supports. I haven't messed with them for a while. Good call
I swear support material used to be super easy to pull off by hand, over the years it got harder and harder to remove.. is it just me? Mandela effect?
I’ve always struggled with supports. They can go live somewhere else
Your using the PLA support material wrong. Don't print the entire support out of it. You just print the interface layer with it. That makes a roll last a very long time.
You’re correct. I was planning to do it both ways but ran out of time unfortunately. Perhaps in a future video!
You should be printing aircraft at an angle so you dont need so much support.
That’s what I am hearing lol. I will still be trying the model again after tuning in the PETG better so I think that’s what I’ll be doing. Sounds like the way to go
Try using a raft instead of supports instead see how it goes
That’s a good idea. I hadn’t thought of that before
@ yeah I had a print fail recently and using a brim saved it, so a raft may work out better for that airplane
I appreciate the content in this video. It is way too long. I ended up not watching the whole thing and just reading the comments for the actual information.
Apparently if I would have watched only the first part I would have done things wrong. :/
Too long?! Well different strokes for different folks I suppose but there was a lot of information covered in this one. I am actually releasing a follow up to this one in the next day or two. Once that’s out, I’ll put out some shorts distilling the info down to a few short format videos. I hope you check them out!
Read the other comments or simply cut the model beforehand.
Why not just alter the engines and have them clip in
Well that was one of the parameters. I didn’t want to adjust the model or wanted to change it as little as possible
I'm a detail guy, so REALLY appreciate your vids!!!
I'm relatively new, but putting in tons of hours learing over the past few months. Today, I discovered a way of ELIMINATING supports if you allow your creative self to ponder, "What if I?"
I was looking for Alaske Airlines aircraft to print, when I just happened on yours, and realized 'I would be running into the same problems!! Then, I remembered the RED PEPPER video with NO supports using the "CUT" tool in Bambu and Orca. Here's the vid. Hope this also give you some ideas.
I can't see why THIS woudn't work cutting just obove the engines, then lying BOTH flat sides on the bed. Engines "up" on one half, Tail "up" on the other.
th-cam.com/video/rGxQeonmFpA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks again for your great vids!!!
Was this thing designed by Boeing LOL
No offense, and I have no idea how the algorithm works so maybe this is bad advice, but as a content consumer I'd much rather you wait until you have a good finished video to share than to crank out a new one every week 🤷♂
Ahh yes but then I would perpetually be tweaking and they would never come out haha. At some point I’ve just gotta be happy with what I have and move onto the next project. And of course there is the algorithm like you mentioned. It does like the consistency.
@@KeoPrints fair!
you leave your AMS... open? *_*
Haha good point. I only really print PLA so its not a super huge concern but also, not a great practice