Sauron without his human servants would not have stood much of a chance. Rhun and Harad provided a huge chunk of his forces, and tactical advantages. They both allowed him to attack Gondor and Rohan from different angles that he would have with only his Orc forces.
Not necessarily, considering that Sauron controlled the southern Rhovanion and Mirkwood, due to his hold on Dol Guldur which had significant forces and also access to the Misty Mountains orc tribes and petty realms, Sauron's forces even without the humans of East and South would be enormous. Orcs and other dark creatures multiply quickly and are stronger under the sway of Sauron's will, not to mention he is capable of breeding them to increase their numbers and make them even more obedient, Sauron can also dominate minds and wills of many of his creatures and servants. The major downside of lacking the human forces from Rhun and Harad would be to be unable to engage propely other fronts like northern regions Dale and Erebor etc. without the south and so realms of Umbar and some of the seafaring Haradrim he would lack the naval power, while without various tribes of Southrons he would lacked the cavalry (the Haradrim horsemen though were still not nearly sufficient in number, nor were they a match for the Rohirrim as shown by the cavalry struggle on Pelennor).
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 hatred of women is often an good indicator of something wrong. I won’t say you are a psychopath, something in that family though. You all have Mummy issues.
I'd love to see a show about the Haradrim, Southrons, Easterlings, Drúadain and other groups of people who never really get their fair shake. Exploring the complexities of races that have been under the thumb of a dark lord would be interesting
I think that even without Melkor's influence over their ancestors, a lot of the Haradrim would have at least allied with Sauron against Gondor. This being due to the colonisation and exploitation by Numenor, for which Gondor is a successor kingdom.
@Hlord1109 even when we would remove Sauron from the picture, the situation from the history of Second Age would so that many of the Haradrim peoples would be also used as political tool by various Black Numenorean lords, who at times seized power among Haradrim, and they in turn had rivarly with the Dunedain of Realms-in-Exile, the most famous examples of such were the Herumor and Fuinur at the end of Second Age: "And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin." The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age So at this stage even if hypothetically there would be no more Sauron, there would be still various lords who could held tyrannical rule over various Haradrim tribes or peoples. Umbar was one of the many of old colonies, there were more though as we're told many would have slowly merged with the locals: "Harad “South” is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad “South”, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the “Resistance,” and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours." Situation as always is far more complex, in any case the Numenorean colonialism of Second Age would be a distant memory in Third Age. Umbar definitely was the prime mover and shaker of political scene in the region of Near Harad, and for long it had great numenorean influences, even for a long period of Third Age, Gondor's expansion which was done in answer to external threats which led as far as king Ciryaher Hyarmendacil conquering large parts of Harad. Umbar itself and it's history is long and complex. "The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King’s Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor. Umbar, therefore, was only taken at great cost." ... "‘The loss of Umbar was grievous to Gondor, not only because the realm was diminished in the south and its hold upon the Men of the Harad was loosened, but because it was there that Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, last King of Númenor, had landed and humbled the might of Sauron. Though great evil had come after, even the followers of Elendil remembered with pride the coming of the great host of Ar-Pharazôn out of the deeps of the Sea; and on the highest hill of the headland above the Haven they had set a great white pillar as a monument. It was crowned with a globe of crystal that took the rays of the Sun and of the Moon and shone like a bright star that could be seen in clear weather even on the coasts of Gondor or far out upon the western sea. So it stood, until after the second arising of Sauron, which now approached, Umbar fell under the domination of his servants, and the memorial of his humiliation was thrown down.’" The original numenorean lords of Umbar who were exiled when Gondor took over also spread their influence across other haradrim realms and lordships. Haradrim it should be noted are not a single people but a myriad of tribes, peoples, petty realms and lordships and various kingdoms. The Black Numenoreans, the descendants of King's Men continued to be a factor even late into Third Age while their race diminished or merged quickly with natives. One particular Black Numenorean is after all alive and well during War of the Ring, the Mouth of Sauron, there were no doubt still pockets of their dominions out there, even the queen Beruthiel of early Third Age proves that there were some Black Numenorean cities or domains out there. Long and complicated history: "Ciryandil... continued the building of ships; but the Men of the Harad, led by the lords that had been driven from Umbar, came up with great power against that stronghold, and Ciryandil fell in battle in Haradwaith." The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion If not for that meddling the normalization of relations of Gondor with Haradrim would be possible far sooner. Unlike the longlived Dunedain, the Haradrim have normal ordinary human lifespans and after many generations, many a grievances would be forgotten. And we know that after War of the Ring, Aragorn as king Elessar made peace with peoples of Harad (at least for a while, and at least with some for there are always remnants of the Sauron's empire out there).
It is a difficult question, as there are rumours and theories that the efforts of the Two Blue Wizards meant that the full military might of the Haradrim and Rhun was not allied to Sauron. I think that if the manipulations of Melkor had not been put into effect. Sauron would have likely managed to get some Haradrim on his side, but not as many as in the Canon timeline, likely many would side with Sauron due to the constant wars, battles and skirmishers with Gondor. But really I find my mind in two options, one being that the Haradrim would likely remain mostly neutral with some siding with Sauron but not a great deal. Option 2 being that many Haradrim might be fearful of Sauron and side with the free peoples, thus Sauron would have to divide his forces even further, fighting in the Elves and Dwarves in the North, Gondor and Rohan in the west and the Haradrim in the South.
Melkor corrupting them by giving them knowledge actually makes him an even more terrifying enemy. To seek out knowledge and understanding was Man’s very reason for existing according to Erú. Morgoth weaponised their very reason for living and used it to enslave them. He didn’t stoke the fires of pride like he did to corrupt the elves or use deception like he used to gain Manwé’s forgiveness. He just used Man’s natural instincts.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Also not really excited Amazon studio is the worst of all the streaming services in terms of quality of content, I would have preferred another studio for this
Can we get a video on one of my favourite characters from The Lord Of The Rings and that is Faramir. I find his character fascinating and would love to see how you guys would show his life and relationships with his brother and father. Love the vids as always !!
I can't recall if their relationship in the books was as close as depicted in the films (extended cut), but I did really like what they showed during the flashbacks. Boromir goes out of his way to give Faramir credit after retaking Osgiliath, and even stands up for him when their father berates Faramir. The films did do dirty by Denathor, though.
While not the same at all, some video games and mods take unto more Haradrim information. Example minecraft lord of the rings (not canon at all, obviously.)
Good question at the end. First of all, Sauron would have still managed to gain allegiance with half of - if not even more - of the Haradrim, even without Melkor's influence. Sauron would have found them even more primitive than the Easterlings at that time not having the knowledge given by Melkor. I also speculate the Faithful Numenoreans would have a better opportunity constructing positive relations even more with the Haradrim, eventually by the time the War of the Ring begins Gondor may have some Haradrim Allies to the South and there would be civil war between the Harurdorim (The Men of the Dark South) and the Dun-haradrim (The "Good" Haradrim) . In the end, Sauron would have a harder time getting his southern forces INTO Gondor if things played out in Gondor's favor, perhaps giving more time for them to prepare, Sauron on the other hand would have significantly lesser numbers but still enough to pose great threat. His [Sauron's] Southern Army would eventually arrive, but their prowess would have already been somewhat spent fighting their "Faithful" counterparts.
As is written in essay about Istari in the Unfinished Tales, the Near Harad would indeed be more 'convertible': "Harad “South” is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad “South”, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the “Resistance,” and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours."
Asking 'why Haradrim join Sauron' is to ask why people in real world serve the tyrannies? The dictatorships, the cruel regimes, mix of propaganda, enslavement, oppression, taking over power by force (I'm certain quite many of the Haradrim peoples, tribes, or realms would be conquered by means of war), some would become corrupted, some would obey out of fear, some would be fanatical worshipers, some would be milslead by lies! And there would be no shortage of greedy, power hungry, opportunistic individuals, rulers, kings, chieftains, lords who would bring their whole people under the sway of Sauron.
In the end if Morgoth had not met them first, I think they would have been convinced to at least go to war against Gondor because of Numenorean oppression. Whether they would join Sauron so closely as they did is a different story, but I think at least it would have been easy for Sauron to convince them that these enemies of theirs needed to be crushed.
I think I'm gonna answer that title/question, did all of the Harad (and Rhun) join Sauron? No, unlikely. For one thing, this is mostly due to the influences of Blue Wizard Morinehtar whose name meant "Darkness-slayer", the other being the Blue Wizard Rómestámo (East-Helper) helping the redeemed Easterlings fight against Sauron. If we were to consider Tolkien's later account of the Blue Wizards that says; "Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West." Both the Haradrim and the Easterlings weren't able to devote all of their armies in the war against the west. Let's say a good growing 25% to 30% of the populace of both Kingdoms had rebelled against Sauron. A small percentage yet this would've presented a dangerous threat to Sauron. Why? For both of these rebel factions, under the guidance of the wizards, would've made alliances with the 4 houses of the Dwarves of the Orocarni (the Red Mountains), making their rebellion pretty serious and the Dwarves themselves would've traded good weapons with them. In addition the rebel Southrons would've built a formidable host that almost similar in size and manner to the Southron army sent to Gondor, and this rebel army would've included the dangerous Mûmakil. The Easterling and Haradrim Kings loyal to Sauron would've sent only 40% of their total force and sent the rest to quell the rebels.
He was the king of the bling. Until it was taken from him. Still even without it he had the intimidation factor and the worship factor. Plus the hatred they had against gondor...
If Men had been united against Sauron he would have still have been powerful (growing more Orcs, Urak hai and other fell beasts to compensate) but it would have been a more even fight. Although Aragon would probably have to work even harder to be respected by the men of the East and South too
I thought of myself as knowledgeable amongst my friends in LOTR lore. After subscribing and watching some of these I have found out that... I am a dolt. Thank you ALL for these!
Sauron would have still had the entire 2nd Age to manipulate the Haradrim onto his side one way or another, particularly once the Númenór started behaving as conquerors vs teachers and helpers. His strength due to them may not have been as great but it still would have been a lot.
I've really thought about this and I was having a discussion with a guy about you know like why the easterlings and the Harad served the dark Powers even Sauron and like what like did they have free will because I know a lot of people have brought this up is that why are these guys evil while the other guys are good and there's a lot of moral gray in this because they even speculate on this like just how devoted are the wicked Man to evil as gollum calls them. I really sat down and thought about it and you look at the terrors that Sauron unleashes on to Gondor during his siege and his wars against them and you look at the full spectrum of it. Endless tides of fanatical orcs, monstrous trolls that no one man can kill, and literal undead wraiths who ride on monsterous mounts and spread such fear and terror that even the warriors of Gondor fear them and flee before their sight and drop their arms in pure terror unless there is a brave Captain like the denathors sons or someone like gandalf literally by their side egging them on to fight on. Now imagine you're a group of men who do not have such luxuries and let's say that the tribes of Harad gathered together and voted to all resist Sauron to refuse his call. There is an uprising in the South and they refused to help Mordor. Can you imagine the destruction the hellfire and the nightmares that Sauron would unleash upon these insolent fools who dare defy his will. We see what happens to Gondor who's stubbornly resists Mordor they suffer the price. All they have to do is pledge eternal loyalty to Sauron and he will not only leave them alone but give them revenge against their mortal enemies.
Asking 'why Haradrim join Sauron' is to ask why people in real world serve the tyrannies? The dictatorships, the cruel regimes, mix of propaganda, enslavement, oppression, taking over power by force (I'm certain quite many of the Haradrim peoples, tribes, or realms would be conquered by means of war, as we hear at the beginning of Lotr: "There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could. Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts - if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor. That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting. It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name."), some would become corrupted, some would obey out of fear, some would be fanatical worshipers, some would be milslead by lies! And there would be no shortage of greedy, power hungry, opportunistic individuals, rulers, kings, chieftains, lords who would bring their whole people under the sway of Sauron. After all in most cases Sauron needed only to subvert or corrupt the leadership to have the entire kingdo or realm: "Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! ... and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the Sun, and yet are under his sway."/"'It is reported to us that many kings have ridden in from the East to the service of Mordor. From the North to the field of Dagorlad there is skirmish and rumour of war. In the South the Haradrim are moving, and fear has fallen on all our coastlands, so that little help will come to us thence.'" Of course there is a lot of morally grey area here, there are both good and bad people among both Southrons and Easterlings, both Haradrim and Easterlings as well as western Free Peoples have evil and good in them. Aragorn who was one of the few individuals who explored "into far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange", he “He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron" ... "‘It seems clear to me that Frodo's duty was 'humane' not political. He naturally thought first of the Shire, since his roots were there, but the quest had as its object not the preserving of this or that polity, such as the half republic half aristocracy of the Shire, but the liberation from an evil tyranny of all the 'humane' - including those, such as 'easterlings' and Haradrim, that were still servants of the tyranny.’" And in the end Aragorn as king made peace with many of those peoples: "In the days that followed his crowning the King sat on his throne in the Hall of the Kings and pronounced his judgements. And embassies came from many lands and peoples, from the East and the South, and from the borders of Mirkwood, and from Dunland in the west. And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own." There are also such writings: "Faramir gives a brief account of the contemporary classification in Gondor of Men into three kinds: High Men, or Numenoreans (of more or less pure descent); Middle Men; and Men of Darkness. The Men of Darkness was a general term applied to all those who were hostile to the Kingdoms, and who were (or appeared in Gondor to be) moved by something more than human greed for conquest and plunder, a fanatical hatred of the High Men and their allies as enemies of their gods. The terms took no account of race or culture or language. With regard to the Middle Men Faramir spoke mainly of the Rohirrim, the only people of this sort well-known in Gondor in his time, and attributed to them actual direct descent from the Folk of Hador in the First Age.... The term Middle Men, however, was of ancient origin. It was devised in the Second Age by the Numenoreans when they began to establish havens and settlements on the western shores of Middle-earth. It arose among the settlers in the North (between Pelargir and the Gulf of Lune), in the time of Ar-Adunakhor; for the settlers in this region had refused to join in the rebellion against the Valar, and were strengthened by many Faithful who fled from persecution by him and the later Kings of Numenor.... In the days of the earlier settlements of Numenor there were many Men of different kinds in Eriador and Rhovanion; but for the most part they dwelt far from the coasts. ... it was long before the Numenorean settlers ventured north of their great haven at Pelargir and made contact with Men who dwelt in the valleys on either side of the White Mountains. Their term Middle Men was thus originally applied to Men of Eriador, the most westerly of Mankind in the Second Age and known to the Elves of Gil-galad's realm. At theat time there were many men in Eriador, mainly, it would seem, in origin kin of the folk of Beor, though some were kin to the Folk of Hador... Thuis it came about that the Numenorean term Middle Men was confused in its application. Its chief test was friendliness towards the West (to Elves and to Numenoreans), but it was actyually applied usually only to Men whose stature and looks were similar to those of the Numenoreans, although this most important distinction of 'friendliness' was not historically confined to peoples of one racial kind. It was a mark of all kinds of Men who were descendants of those who had abjured the Shadow of Morgoth and his servants and wandered westward to escape it - and certainly included both the races of small stature, Drugs and Hobbits. Also it must be said that 'unfriendliness' to the Numenoreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Numenoreans themselves. Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Numenoreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of their forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings."
Tolkien's works contain universal truths, there is this quote from king Tar-Meneldur of Numenor that comes to mind dealing with the nature of choice and attitude towards war in general, the moral dilemmas, all quite powerful stuff: "Meneldur let the parchment fall into his lap. Great clouds borne upon a wind out of the East brought darkness early, and the tall candles at his side seemed to dwindle in the gloom that filled his chamber. "May Eru call me before such a time comes!" he cried aloud. Then to himself he said: "Alas! that his pride and my coolness have kept our minds apart so long. But sooner now than I had resolved it will be the course of wisdom to resign the Sceptre to him. For these things are beyond my reach. "When the Valar gave to us the Land of Gift they did not make us their vice-regents; we were given the Kingdom of Númenor, not of the world. They are the Lords. Here we were to put away hatred and war; for war was ended, and Morgoth thrust forth from Arda. So I deemed, and so was taught. "Yet if the world grows again dark, the Lords must know; and they have sent me no sign. Unless this be the sign. What then? Our fathers were rewarded for the aid they gave in the defeat of the Great Shadow. Shall their sons stand aloof, if evil finds a new head? "I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood? "When either way may lead to evil, of what worth is choice? Let the Valar rule under Eru! I will resign the Sceptre to Aldarion. Yet that also is a choice, for I know well which road he will take." As Aragorn says to Eomer: "'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.”"
Because Sauron created a Technocracy: The first centuries of the 2nd age - time of the wandering Sauron. Regarding men, Sauron must have used Clarke's 3rd Law to co-opt them to his cause: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In this scenario of decadence, obscurity and primitivism, a "benevolent god" arrives and brings technological teachings that impact on the social, economic and political development of societies that interact with this walking deity - at best Sauron was already thinking about the long term: military strengthening, submission and technological dependence of prehistoric men for a future conquest of the opposing pockets that were in the northwest of Middle-earth - mainly in Eriador. This is equivalent to an interference in the normal development of a culture or society, hindering it. if any and all freedom or innovation (social, technology, government, etc.) that could attempt or question this false Prometheus. Through the teachings of metallurgy, engineering, agriculture (etc) to men under his dominion: "In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron." It reminded me of an aspect covered in Star Trek - the Primary Directive: "The Prime Directive prohibits Starfleet personnel and spacecraft from interfering in the normal development of any society, and mandates that any Starfleet vessel or crew member is expendable to prevent violation of this rule." In this demonstration of miracles and powers (in my view it was the use of technologies and knowledge from his time with Aulë), ignorant men began to understand all this in a strictly religious sense - transmuting technological production into rituals, imposing dogmas to avoid questioning about this "divine" knowledge: As if they were mystery cults, in which only the priestly elite could have access - more or less what Planet Terminus did in Isaac Azimov's Foundation Trilogy, when it monopolized knowledge and provided the apparatus to uneducated planets who understood such knowledge to be magic or divine favor.
Two questions. What do you think would happen if Elrond also failed like his brothers bloodline and took the ring for himself??? Do you think Sauron preferred his human servants over his Canon fodder orcs???
I do not think Sauron preferred either of them. They were both useful in their way, orcs for Cannon fodder and humans as specialty units. Both were equally expendable in the right circumstances. Much the same way as a modern military force when you talk about the infantry versus armor.
Well the Orcs when it comes to their variety and special breeding, as well in terms of quality of troops are also of differing value, there are 'elite troops' even among the Orcs, the larger and stronger, heavier armed like "uruks of Barad-dur" etc. but Sauron definitely had always more than enough of Orcs, he could always use them for they quickly increased in numbers, he could recruit them from pre-exisitng tribes and clans, as well as breed them on his own, they were completely under his will, while he had to use a bit more effort with swaying Men to his side, but I don't think he had any 'preferences' he used all incarnate creatures serving him as convenient tools, in the end his goal was to dominate minds and wills of all living creatures one way or another. "And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them." He would always get more of them. The stronger and large Orcs were also greater warriors: "In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath." So the Orcs were capable, there were naturally also various formations and troops differing in training and experience and skill. Similarly with the Men, Sauron in the end wanted to be King of Men, and a god to them! He also would have viewed the Men serving him in utilitarian way, as long as they served his purposes. Men that he enslaved were also of differing quality, from semi nomadic tribes to realms and kingdoms, some he enhanced with his gifts of knowledge and power: " Elsewhere Sauron reigned, and those who would be free took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain, and ever fear pursued them. In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire."
Why would an all powerful being create "the race of men" and require them to struggle to even survive; then create beings who are overwhelmingly powerful relative to the men and not expect the men to be used? Only a person who lives a very privileged life would argue that the "race of men" should have rejected the "gifts" and accepted a life where many of the race of men suffered and died when the answers to there struggle were available and being kept from them intentionally.
Like the Calormen in the Narnia book The Horse and His Boy, this depiction of 'enemies' and people of the East in Lord of the Rings is very uncomfortable. And of course give raise to the idea that both authors were racists.
What? I'm seriously puzzled sometimes by some comments. The Haradrim's portrayal in the movies may not be exactly what Tolkien described: ""'More Men going to Mordor,' he [Gollum] said in a low voice. 'Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before... They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes." ... "For a moment he caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope some way off with green-clad warriors leaping after them... a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword." ... ""He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..." There is no specific model to which we can fit the culture of Haradrim one to one, in real world equivalent, they may have inspirations from various places, starting with Carthage or some other cultures, well the habit of using mumakil as war beasts, like war elephants in real world history etc. Haradrim in the end are not a single people but a myriad of tribes, peoples and cultures. As for the women since we mostly see the Haradrim in the stories as warriors, we naturally don't see much of their daily lives, similarly with Orcs we know from one letter that female Orcs exist: "'There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known'." This applies to various cultures we know little of, though for example in this regard one needs to distinguish between Haradrim and Easterling tribes, for in case of at least one Easterling tribe the women are as we're told: "The revolt planned and assisted by Marhwini had indeed broken out; desperate outlaws coming out of the Forest had roused the slaves, and together had succeeded in burning many of the dwellings of the Wainriders, and their storehouses, and their fortified camps of wagons. But most of them had perished in the attempt; for they were ill-armed, and the enemy had not left their homes undefended: their youths and old men were aided by the younger women, who in that people were also gained in arms and fought fiercely in defence of their homes and their children." Easterling Wainrider tribes were a separate people completely from the southern Haradrim. As far as the east goes: "The placing of Mordor in the east was due to simple narrative and geographical necessity, within my 'mythology'. The original stronghold of Evil was (as traditionally) in the North; but as that had been destroyed, and was indeed under the sea, there had to be a new stronghold, far removed from the Valar, the Elves, and the sea-power of Númenor." Letter 229 Tolkien also wrote of the Blue Wizards being send: "I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range" Haradrim or Southrons are different than Easterling tribes, be it Balchoth or Wainriders or other, just like the Variags of Khand are different and other cultures etc.
But they did! The Men of the Mountain's worshipped Sauron in the Dark Days, but the Men of Eriador did not. Not even the ancestors of the Dunlendings! They aided Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron, but only to get rid of the Numenorean's shipyards. The Northmen of Rhovanion were aided by the Entwives and the Longbeards of Durin's Folk and elves of Greenwood the Great. This helped prevent them from worshipping Sauron, and by the time of the War of Sauron and the Elves he was their enemy. The war began in 1693 but only reached Eriador in 1697. These missing years were likely spent fighting in Rhovanion as the war began 93 years after the One Ring was created, not right after. Also, the Northmen lived in Rhovanion, not in the East, so they did not worship Melkor or later Sauron. They were descended from the men who escaped from Melkor and his worshipers of the Darkness. They were always against the Darkness, even if some of them sometimes allied with the Easterlings to raid Gondor.
According to Wokepedia, haradrim created writing systems, taught how to shape stone to dwarves, how to sing to elves and we're against white supremacists.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 i did the Haradrim are dark of hair and skin. Doesn't mean poc they're still white people just tanned probably a kin to Sicilians. Again this is an Amglo Saxon mythology so there can't be poc in it. It's a legsnd for English people to which medieval ancient and medieval English did not see or even know poc existed do their stories mention none, so there can't be any non-white in LOTR it would disrespect the lore and aim of Tolkien.
Sauron without his human servants would not have stood much of a chance. Rhun and Harad provided a huge chunk of his forces, and tactical advantages. They both allowed him to attack Gondor and Rohan from different angles that he would have with only his Orc forces.
That's the mark of a manipulative psicho,
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 Isn't it beautiful?
@@Orc_Kisses Coming from the manipulative psichopatic sex....
Not necessarily, considering that Sauron controlled the southern Rhovanion and Mirkwood, due to his hold on Dol Guldur which had significant forces and also access to the Misty Mountains orc tribes and petty realms, Sauron's forces even without the humans of East and South would be enormous. Orcs and other dark creatures multiply quickly and are stronger under the sway of Sauron's will, not to mention he is capable of breeding them to increase their numbers and make them even more obedient, Sauron can also dominate minds and wills of many of his creatures and servants. The major downside of lacking the human forces from Rhun and Harad would be to be unable to engage propely other fronts like northern regions Dale and Erebor etc. without the south and so realms of Umbar and some of the seafaring Haradrim he would lack the naval power, while without various tribes of Southrons he would lacked the cavalry (the Haradrim horsemen though were still not nearly sufficient in number, nor were they a match for the Rohirrim as shown by the cavalry struggle on Pelennor).
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 hatred of women is often an good indicator of something wrong. I won’t say you are a psychopath, something in that family though. You all have Mummy issues.
I'd love to see a show about the Haradrim, Southrons, Easterlings, Drúadain and other groups of people who never really get their fair shake. Exploring the complexities of races that have been under the thumb of a dark lord would be interesting
I think that even without Melkor's influence over their ancestors, a lot of the Haradrim would have at least allied with Sauron against Gondor. This being due to the colonisation and exploitation by Numenor, for which Gondor is a successor kingdom.
Agreed. The Numenoreans were complete dicks, and to the Haradrim there would be no difference between them and their Gondorian descendants.
@@legionarybooks13 the kings men were
@Hlord1109 even when we would remove Sauron from the picture, the situation from the history of Second Age would so that many of the Haradrim peoples would be also used as political tool by various Black Numenorean lords, who at times seized power among Haradrim, and they in turn had rivarly with the Dunedain of Realms-in-Exile, the most famous examples of such were the Herumor and Fuinur at the end of Second Age:
"And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin."
The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
So at this stage even if hypothetically there would be no more Sauron, there would be still various lords who could held tyrannical rule over various Haradrim tribes or peoples. Umbar was one of the many of old colonies, there were more though as we're told many would have slowly merged with the locals:
"Harad “South” is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad “South”, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the “Resistance,” and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours."
Situation as always is far more complex, in any case the Numenorean colonialism of Second Age would be a distant memory in Third Age. Umbar definitely was the prime mover and shaker of political scene in the region of Near Harad, and for long it had great numenorean influences, even for a long period of Third Age, Gondor's expansion which was done in answer to external threats which led as far as king Ciryaher Hyarmendacil conquering large parts of Harad. Umbar itself and it's history is long and complex.
"The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King’s Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor. Umbar, therefore, was only taken at great cost."
...
"‘The loss of Umbar was grievous to Gondor, not only because the realm was diminished in the south and its hold upon the Men of the Harad was loosened, but because it was there that Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, last King of Númenor, had landed and humbled the might of Sauron. Though great evil had come after, even the followers of Elendil remembered with pride the coming of the great host of Ar-Pharazôn out of the deeps of the Sea; and on the highest hill of the headland above the Haven they had set a great white pillar as a monument. It was crowned with a globe of crystal that took the rays of the Sun and of the Moon and shone like a bright star that could be seen in clear weather even on the coasts of Gondor or far out upon the western sea. So it stood, until after the second arising of Sauron, which now approached, Umbar fell under the domination of his servants, and the memorial of his humiliation was thrown down.’"
The original numenorean lords of Umbar who were exiled when Gondor took over also spread their influence across other haradrim realms and lordships. Haradrim it should be noted are not a single people but a myriad of tribes, peoples, petty realms and lordships and various kingdoms.
The Black Numenoreans, the descendants of King's Men continued to be a factor even late into Third Age while their race diminished or merged quickly with natives. One particular Black Numenorean is after all alive and well during War of the Ring, the Mouth of Sauron, there were no doubt still pockets of their dominions out there, even the queen Beruthiel of early Third Age proves that there were some Black Numenorean cities or domains out there. Long and complicated history:
"Ciryandil... continued the building of ships; but the Men of the Harad, led by the lords that had been driven from Umbar, came up with great power against that stronghold, and Ciryandil fell in battle in Haradwaith."
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion
If not for that meddling the normalization of relations of Gondor with Haradrim would be possible far sooner. Unlike the longlived Dunedain, the Haradrim have normal ordinary human lifespans and after many generations, many a grievances would be forgotten. And we know that after War of the Ring, Aragorn as king Elessar made peace with peoples of Harad (at least for a while, and at least with some for there are always remnants of the Sauron's empire out there).
Yeah everyone was sick of numenorian privilege so they all got on twitter and started the great cancelling.
@@masterroasti5588😂😂 so this is where cancel culture came from lol
The southern end of the map and its people have always fascinated me
It is a difficult question, as there are rumours and theories that the efforts of the Two Blue Wizards meant that the full military might of the Haradrim and Rhun was not allied to Sauron. I think that if the manipulations of Melkor had not been put into effect.
Sauron would have likely managed to get some Haradrim on his side, but not as many as in the Canon timeline, likely many would side with Sauron due to the constant wars, battles and skirmishers with Gondor.
But really I find my mind in two options, one being that the Haradrim would likely remain mostly neutral with some siding with Sauron but not a great deal.
Option 2 being that many Haradrim might be fearful of Sauron and side with the free peoples, thus Sauron would have to divide his forces even further, fighting in the Elves and Dwarves in the North, Gondor and Rohan in the west and the Haradrim in the South.
Melkor corrupting them by giving them knowledge actually makes him an even more terrifying enemy. To seek out knowledge and understanding was Man’s very reason for existing according to Erú. Morgoth weaponised their very reason for living and used it to enslave them. He didn’t stoke the fires of pride like he did to corrupt the elves or use deception like he used to gain Manwé’s forgiveness. He just used Man’s natural instincts.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Excited to see how these "corrupted" men will be portrayed in Rings of Power.. Keep up the great work Mellon! Ecthelion!
They will be white and straight. Exactly what woke culture sees as evil
@@MrAlzeron we'll see
I don’t think we will see much at all of them.
Also not really excited Amazon studio is the worst of all the streaming services in terms of quality of content, I would have preferred another studio for this
So you're the viewer still watching that crap.
Can we get a video on one of my favourite characters from The Lord Of The Rings and that is Faramir. I find his character fascinating and would love to see how you guys would show his life and relationships with his brother and father. Love the vids as always !!
I can't recall if their relationship in the books was as close as depicted in the films (extended cut), but I did really like what they showed during the flashbacks. Boromir goes out of his way to give Faramir credit after retaking Osgiliath, and even stands up for him when their father berates Faramir. The films did do dirty by Denathor, though.
Haradrim join forces allies with Sauron. Haradrim betray Human become Enemy
So glad to be back to your channel! You are the best LOTR content for me!
Thanks a lot! :D
I wish there was more we could see about the haradrim in the LOTR movies.
While not the same at all, some video games and mods take unto more Haradrim information.
Example minecraft lord of the rings (not canon at all, obviously.)
Great info and pics! Cheers!
Good question at the end. First of all, Sauron would have still managed to gain allegiance with half of - if not even more - of the Haradrim, even without Melkor's influence. Sauron would have found them even more primitive than the Easterlings at that time not having the knowledge given by Melkor. I also speculate the Faithful Numenoreans would have a better opportunity constructing positive relations even more with the Haradrim, eventually by the time the War of the Ring begins Gondor may have some Haradrim Allies to the South and there would be civil war between the Harurdorim (The Men of the Dark South) and the Dun-haradrim (The "Good" Haradrim) . In the end, Sauron would have a harder time getting his southern forces INTO Gondor if things played out in Gondor's favor, perhaps giving more time for them to prepare, Sauron on the other hand would have significantly lesser numbers but still enough to pose great threat. His [Sauron's] Southern Army would eventually arrive, but their prowess would have already been somewhat spent fighting their "Faithful" counterparts.
As is written in essay about Istari in the Unfinished Tales, the Near Harad would indeed be more 'convertible':
"Harad “South” is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad “South”, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the “Resistance,” and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours."
Asking 'why Haradrim join Sauron' is to ask why people in real world serve the tyrannies? The dictatorships, the cruel regimes, mix of propaganda, enslavement, oppression, taking over power by force (I'm certain quite many of the Haradrim peoples, tribes, or realms would be conquered by means of war), some would become corrupted, some would obey out of fear, some would be fanatical worshipers, some would be milslead by lies! And there would be no shortage of greedy, power hungry, opportunistic individuals, rulers, kings, chieftains, lords who would bring their whole people under the sway of Sauron.
It would have been interesting to have some stories of the Haradrin and a rebel movement within their society.
Awesome video the Art work is amazing!
In the end if Morgoth had not met them first, I think they would have been convinced to at least go to war against Gondor because of Numenorean oppression. Whether they would join Sauron so closely as they did is a different story, but I think at least it would have been easy for Sauron to convince them that these enemies of theirs needed to be crushed.
Always wanted to know more about the Haradrim they're one of the coolest looking factions Plus Giant Elephants Who doesn't want Giant Elephants
Well Rome didn't want giant elephants
They looked badass in the movie.
"did they know he was evil?" ... no, no they did not. for it was all they knew and thought it was good
I think I'm gonna answer that title/question, did all of the Harad (and Rhun) join Sauron? No, unlikely.
For one thing, this is mostly due to the influences of Blue Wizard Morinehtar whose name meant "Darkness-slayer", the other being the Blue Wizard Rómestámo (East-Helper) helping the redeemed Easterlings fight against Sauron.
If we were to consider Tolkien's later account of the Blue Wizards that says; "Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West."
Both the Haradrim and the Easterlings weren't able to devote all of their armies in the war against the west. Let's say a good growing 25% to 30% of the populace of both Kingdoms had rebelled against Sauron. A small percentage yet this would've presented a dangerous threat to Sauron. Why?
For both of these rebel factions, under the guidance of the wizards, would've made alliances with the 4 houses of the Dwarves of the Orocarni (the Red Mountains), making their rebellion pretty serious and the Dwarves themselves would've traded good weapons with them. In addition the rebel Southrons would've built a formidable host that almost similar in size and manner to the Southron army sent to Gondor, and this rebel army would've included the dangerous Mûmakil.
The Easterling and Haradrim Kings loyal to Sauron would've sent only 40% of their total force and sent the rest to quell the rebels.
He was the king of the bling.
Until it was taken from him.
Still even without it he had the intimidation factor and the worship factor.
Plus the hatred they had against gondor...
If Men had been united against Sauron he would have still have been powerful (growing more Orcs, Urak hai and other fell beasts to compensate) but it would have been a more even fight. Although Aragon would probably have to work even harder to be respected by the men of the East and South too
I hope we get to see more of the Haradrim on the show
Now This is an interesting topic!
I thought of myself as knowledgeable amongst my friends in LOTR lore.
After subscribing and watching some of these I have found out that...
I am a dolt.
Thank you ALL for these!
Sauron would have still had the entire 2nd Age to manipulate the Haradrim onto his side one way or another, particularly once the Númenór started behaving as conquerors vs teachers and helpers. His strength due to them may not have been as great but it still would have been a lot.
I’ve always wondered this!
I've really thought about this and I was having a discussion with a guy about you know like why the easterlings and the Harad served the dark Powers even Sauron and like what like did they have free will because I know a lot of people have brought this up is that why are these guys evil while the other guys are good and there's a lot of moral gray in this because they even speculate on this like just how devoted are the wicked Man to evil as gollum calls them.
I really sat down and thought about it and you look at the terrors that Sauron unleashes on to Gondor during his siege and his wars against them and you look at the full spectrum of it.
Endless tides of fanatical orcs, monstrous trolls that no one man can kill, and literal undead wraiths who ride on monsterous mounts and spread such fear and terror that even the warriors of Gondor fear them and flee before their sight and drop their arms in pure terror unless there is a brave Captain like the denathors sons or someone like gandalf literally by their side egging them on to fight on.
Now imagine you're a group of men who do not have such luxuries and let's say that the tribes of Harad gathered together and voted to all resist Sauron to refuse his call. There is an uprising in the South and they refused to help Mordor.
Can you imagine the destruction the hellfire and the nightmares that Sauron would unleash upon these insolent fools who dare defy his will.
We see what happens to Gondor who's stubbornly resists Mordor they suffer the price. All they have to do is pledge eternal loyalty to Sauron and he will not only leave them alone but give them revenge against their mortal enemies.
Asking 'why Haradrim join Sauron' is to ask why people in real world serve the tyrannies? The dictatorships, the cruel regimes, mix of propaganda, enslavement, oppression, taking over power by force (I'm certain quite many of the Haradrim peoples, tribes, or realms would be conquered by means of war, as we hear at the beginning of Lotr:
"There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could. Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts - if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor.
That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting. It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name."), some would become corrupted, some would obey out of fear, some would be fanatical worshipers, some would be milslead by lies! And there would be no shortage of greedy, power hungry, opportunistic individuals, rulers, kings, chieftains, lords who would bring their whole people under the sway of Sauron. After all in most cases Sauron needed only to subvert or corrupt the leadership to have the entire kingdo or realm:
"Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! ... and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the Sun, and yet are under his sway."/"'It is reported to us that many kings have ridden in from the East to the service of Mordor. From the North to the field of Dagorlad there is skirmish and rumour of war. In the South the Haradrim are moving, and fear has fallen on all our coastlands, so that little help will come to us thence.'"
Of course there is a lot of morally grey area here, there are both good and bad people among both Southrons and Easterlings, both Haradrim and Easterlings as well as western Free Peoples have evil and good in them.
Aragorn who was one of the few individuals who explored "into far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange", he
“He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron"
...
"‘It seems clear to me that Frodo's duty was 'humane' not political. He naturally thought first of the Shire, since his roots were there, but the quest had as its object not the preserving of this or that polity, such as the half republic half aristocracy of the Shire, but the liberation from an evil tyranny of all the 'humane' - including those, such as 'easterlings' and Haradrim, that were still servants of the tyranny.’"
And in the end Aragorn as king made peace with many of those peoples:
"In the days that followed his crowning the King sat on his throne in the Hall of the Kings and pronounced his judgements. And embassies came from many lands and peoples, from the East and the South, and from the borders of Mirkwood, and from Dunland in the west. And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own."
There are also such writings:
"Faramir gives a brief account of the contemporary classification in Gondor of Men into three kinds: High Men, or Numenoreans (of more or less pure descent); Middle Men; and Men of Darkness. The Men of Darkness was a general term applied to all those who were hostile to the Kingdoms, and who were (or appeared in Gondor to be) moved by something more than human greed for conquest and plunder, a fanatical hatred of the High Men and their allies as enemies of their gods. The terms took no account of race or culture or language. With regard to the Middle Men Faramir spoke mainly of the Rohirrim, the only people of this sort well-known in Gondor in his time, and attributed to them actual direct descent from the Folk of Hador in the First Age....
The term Middle Men, however, was of ancient origin. It was devised in the Second Age by the Numenoreans when they began to establish havens and settlements on the western shores of Middle-earth. It arose among the settlers in the North (between Pelargir and the Gulf of Lune), in the time of Ar-Adunakhor; for the settlers in this region had refused to join in the rebellion against the Valar, and were strengthened by many Faithful who fled from persecution by him and the later Kings of Numenor....
In the days of the earlier settlements of Numenor there were many Men of different kinds in Eriador and Rhovanion; but for the most part they dwelt far from the coasts. ... it was long before the Numenorean settlers ventured north of their great haven at Pelargir and made contact with Men who dwelt in the valleys on either side of the White Mountains. Their term Middle Men was thus originally applied to Men of Eriador, the most westerly of Mankind in the Second Age and known to the Elves of Gil-galad's realm. At theat time there were many men in Eriador, mainly, it would seem, in origin kin of the folk of Beor, though some were kin to the Folk of Hador...
Thuis it came about that the Numenorean term Middle Men was confused in its application. Its chief test was friendliness towards the West (to Elves and to Numenoreans), but it was actyually applied usually only to Men whose stature and looks were similar to those of the Numenoreans, although this most important distinction of 'friendliness' was not historically confined to peoples of one racial kind. It was a mark of all kinds of Men who were descendants of those who had abjured the Shadow of Morgoth and his servants and wandered westward to escape it - and certainly included both the races of small stature, Drugs and Hobbits. Also it must be said that 'unfriendliness' to the Numenoreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Numenoreans themselves. Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Numenoreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of their forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings."
Where was that long quote from? I don’t recall it’s citation, and don’t recognize it.
Tolkiens work reflects human nature and the battle of good and evil so well the world should read it and learn from it
Tolkien's works contain universal truths, there is this quote from king Tar-Meneldur of Numenor that comes to mind dealing with the nature of choice and attitude towards war in general, the moral dilemmas, all quite powerful stuff:
"Meneldur let the parchment fall into his lap. Great clouds borne upon a wind out of the East brought darkness early, and the tall candles at his side seemed to dwindle in the gloom that filled his chamber.
"May Eru call me before such a time comes!" he cried aloud. Then to himself he said: "Alas! that his pride and my coolness have kept our minds apart so long. But sooner now than I had resolved it will be the course of wisdom to resign the Sceptre to him. For these things are beyond my reach.
"When the Valar gave to us the Land of Gift they did not make us their vice-regents; we were given the Kingdom of Númenor, not of the world. They are the Lords. Here we were to put away hatred and war; for war was ended, and Morgoth thrust forth from Arda. So I deemed, and so was taught.
"Yet if the world grows again dark, the Lords must know; and they have sent me no sign. Unless this be the sign. What then? Our fathers were rewarded for the aid they gave in the defeat of the Great Shadow. Shall their sons stand aloof, if evil finds a new head?
"I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?
"When either way may lead to evil, of what worth is choice? Let the Valar rule under Eru! I will resign the Sceptre to Aldarion. Yet that also is a choice, for I know well which road he will take."
As Aragorn says to Eomer:
"'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.”"
Can you do a video on Minas Morgul?
checking out batman sunday
What if saruman joind the fellowship and didn’t try to kill them?
What a great video and great question.
Because Sauron created a Technocracy:
The first centuries of the 2nd age - time of the wandering Sauron. Regarding men, Sauron must have used Clarke's 3rd Law to co-opt them to his cause:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
In this scenario of decadence, obscurity and primitivism, a "benevolent god" arrives and brings technological teachings that impact on the social, economic and political development of societies that interact with this walking deity - at best Sauron was already thinking about the long term: military strengthening, submission and technological dependence of prehistoric men for a future conquest of the opposing pockets that were in the northwest of Middle-earth - mainly in Eriador. This is equivalent to an interference in the normal development of a culture or society, hindering it. if any and all freedom or innovation (social, technology, government, etc.) that could attempt or question this false Prometheus. Through the teachings of metallurgy, engineering, agriculture (etc) to men under his dominion:
"In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron."
It reminded me of an aspect covered in Star Trek - the Primary Directive:
"The Prime Directive prohibits Starfleet personnel and spacecraft from interfering in the normal development of any society, and mandates that any Starfleet vessel or crew member is expendable to prevent violation of this rule."
In this demonstration of miracles and powers (in my view it was the use of technologies and knowledge from his time with Aulë), ignorant men began to understand all this in a strictly religious sense - transmuting technological production into rituals, imposing dogmas to avoid questioning about this "divine" knowledge: As if they were mystery cults, in which only the priestly elite could have access - more or less what Planet Terminus did in Isaac Azimov's Foundation Trilogy, when it monopolized knowledge and provided the apparatus to uneducated planets who understood such knowledge to be magic or divine favor.
Stay a while and listen…
Two questions.
What do you think would happen if Elrond also failed like his brothers bloodline and took the ring for himself???
Do you think Sauron preferred his human servants over his Canon fodder orcs???
I do not think Sauron preferred either of them. They were both useful in their way, orcs for Cannon fodder and humans as specialty units. Both were equally expendable in the right circumstances. Much the same way as a modern military force when you talk about the infantry versus armor.
Well the Orcs when it comes to their variety and special breeding, as well in terms of quality of troops are also of differing value, there are 'elite troops' even among the Orcs, the larger and stronger, heavier armed like "uruks of Barad-dur" etc. but Sauron definitely had always more than enough of Orcs, he could always use them for they quickly increased in numbers, he could recruit them from pre-exisitng tribes and clans, as well as breed them on his own, they were completely under his will, while he had to use a bit more effort with swaying Men to his side, but I don't think he had any 'preferences' he used all incarnate creatures serving him as convenient tools, in the end his goal was to dominate minds and wills of all living creatures one way or another.
"And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them."
He would always get more of them. The stronger and large Orcs were also greater warriors:
"In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."
So the Orcs were capable, there were naturally also various formations and troops differing in training and experience and skill. Similarly with the Men, Sauron in the end wanted to be King of Men, and a god to them! He also would have viewed the Men serving him in utilitarian way, as long as they served his purposes. Men that he enslaved were also of differing quality, from semi nomadic tribes to realms and kingdoms, some he enhanced with his gifts of knowledge and power:
" Elsewhere Sauron reigned, and those who would be free took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain, and ever fear pursued them. In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire."
What happened to the streams? :( EDIT: Ohhh okay I see now.
Well according to Amazon - "They were not represented enough among the people of Middle Earth so they joined Sauron"
See kids, representation matters!
Rings of Power is TV-14 so there should be no nudity in it.
This would be a great plot for a show, but I don't think it will appear in one.
Why would an all powerful being create "the race of men" and require them to struggle to even survive; then create beings who are overwhelmingly powerful relative to the men and not expect the men to be used?
Only a person who lives a very privileged life would argue that the "race of men" should have rejected the "gifts" and accepted a life where many of the race of men suffered and died when the answers to there struggle were available and being kept from them intentionally.
And why didnt they join amazon?
Like the Calormen in the Narnia book The Horse and His Boy, this depiction of 'enemies' and people of the East in Lord of the Rings is very uncomfortable. And of course give raise to the idea that both authors were racists.
The haradrim look like from middle east musslim... 🤔 Were are the woman of their clan
No lie but they do. And the fact that they are from the east even makes me wonder even more about it.
What? I'm seriously puzzled sometimes by some comments. The Haradrim's portrayal in the movies may not be exactly what Tolkien described:
""'More Men going to Mordor,' he [Gollum] said in a low voice. 'Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before... They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes."
...
"For a moment he caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope some way off with green-clad warriors leaping after them... a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."
...
""He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..."
There is no specific model to which we can fit the culture of Haradrim one to one, in real world equivalent, they may have inspirations from various places, starting with Carthage or some other cultures, well the habit of using mumakil as war beasts, like war elephants in real world history etc. Haradrim in the end are not a single people but a myriad of tribes, peoples and cultures. As for the women since we mostly see the Haradrim in the stories as warriors, we naturally don't see much of their daily lives, similarly with Orcs we know from one letter that female Orcs exist:
"'There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known'."
This applies to various cultures we know little of, though for example in this regard one needs to distinguish between Haradrim and Easterling tribes, for in case of at least one Easterling tribe the women are as we're told:
"The revolt planned and assisted by Marhwini had indeed broken out; desperate outlaws coming out of the Forest had roused the slaves, and together had succeeded in burning many of the dwellings of the Wainriders, and their storehouses, and their fortified camps of wagons. But most of them had perished in the attempt; for they were ill-armed, and the enemy had not left their homes undefended: their youths and old men were aided by the younger women, who in that people were also gained in arms and fought fiercely in defence of their homes and their children."
Easterling Wainrider tribes were a separate people completely from the southern Haradrim. As far as the east goes:
"The placing of Mordor in the east was due to simple narrative and geographical necessity, within my 'mythology'. The original stronghold of Evil was (as traditionally) in the North; but as that had been destroyed, and was indeed under the sea, there had to be a new stronghold, far removed from the Valar, the Elves, and the sea-power of Númenor." Letter 229
Tolkien also wrote of the Blue Wizards being send:
"I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range"
Haradrim or Southrons are different than Easterling tribes, be it Balchoth or Wainriders or other, just like the Variags of Khand are different and other cultures etc.
But they did! The Men of the Mountain's worshipped Sauron in the Dark Days, but the Men of Eriador did not. Not even the ancestors of the Dunlendings! They aided Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron, but only to get rid of the Numenorean's shipyards.
The Northmen of Rhovanion were aided by the Entwives and the Longbeards of Durin's Folk and elves of Greenwood the Great. This helped prevent them from worshipping Sauron, and by the time of the War of Sauron and the Elves he was their enemy. The war began in 1693 but only reached Eriador in 1697. These missing years were likely spent fighting in Rhovanion as the war began 93 years after the One Ring was created, not right after.
Also, the Northmen lived in Rhovanion, not in the East, so they did not worship Melkor or later Sauron.
They were descended from the men who escaped from Melkor and his worshipers of the Darkness. They were always against the Darkness, even if some of them sometimes allied with the Easterlings to raid Gondor.
the similarities between Haradrim and Russia...
If they had been on the mens side it would be asome
It's simple: cuz Tolkien was christian, and the haradrim represented Muslims. West vs East. Tale as old as time.
Video 94
xk no conocian otra cosa
They join Sauron because he was cool as hell! just imagine Lord and of the ring without Sauron?
Thank you
@@lbanepa welcome, my Dark Lord. :)
They were evil.
According to Wokepedia, haradrim created writing systems, taught how to shape stone to dwarves, how to sing to elves and we're against white supremacists.
They're white themselves so what are you talking about? There are no poc in this universe its an Anglo Saxon mythology after all.
@@admirekashiri6651 Hahaha, you spotted yourself "SuperFan"!
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 I'm no fan of LOTR more so one of ASOIAF AND Stormlight Archive.
@@admirekashiri6651 At least get some education before posting your opinions about the Legendarium.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 i did the Haradrim are dark of hair and skin. Doesn't mean poc they're still white people just tanned probably a kin to Sicilians. Again this is an Amglo Saxon mythology so there can't be poc in it. It's a legsnd for English people to which medieval ancient and medieval English did not see or even know poc existed do their stories mention none, so there can't be any non-white in LOTR it would disrespect the lore and aim of Tolkien.
I hope amazon listens and stops turning the Rings of Power show into political showcase…
See? : Sauron was for endless immigration into the north west of Middle Earth... sounds familiar
They look like Arabs
So instead of making the rings of power woke and diversity crazy why not just make a show about those groups
The rings of power show is going to be awful
sounds a lot like muslims
even look like Arabs.
Islam is in different regions lol even though these look like arabs
Money, power and a discount card for Starbucks