Working as a mechanic for 11 years on many high performance cars and vintage race cars we installed and serviced a lot of flexible stainless brake lines. We installed top brands like Spiegler and Earl's. Many of these brake line installations failed within just a few months. Flexible ends or not, this hardware is not really suitable for everyday street use. There is simply more flex at the line ends than the lines can handle, and the hose ends up splitting close to the end fitting. It is even a problem for race cars. The rubber hoses can tolerate a lot more flex cycles than the stainless hose.
Interesting. I also work for a high-end repair facility(20+ yrs) but have no experience the brands that you mentioned. I currently have StopTech lines on my Honda and Techna-Fit lines on my daughter's Nissan. Both have DOT approved fittings and have shown no signs of flexing failure. I sold my previous Volvo 240 with IPD lines that endured over 12 years/200k miles. Correct routing is essential and the technician was meticulous during those installs. I would tend to think that any SS braided brake hose that encounters more stress than it's rubber counterpart would be due to a poorly designed/built hose and/or improper routing during installation.
I put Stainless Steel brake lines on my motorcycle. I simply did it because I found the braking "Feel" to be much better. Very firm levers after installed. Of course part of this could be the fact that I installed new fluid and made sure they were bled to perfection. Nevertheless, they were red. I like red.
Regular maintenance is probably a better investment on such a light vehicle. How often are rubber brake lines supposed to be changed on a bike, and who really does it to that schedule?
I used to do the stainless thing. Then I found that it's really hard to tell the difference between stainless and _new_ rubber lines - but most people are comparing them to the old, worn-out rubber lines that they're replacing. if you're a professional (with a like skill set) or if you're driving off-road a lot, I can see the point. But for spirited driving or the occasional track day - probably not worth the expense.
@@aussiebloke609 I absolutely agree with your on this point, I got my WRX braided brake line replace on my new WRX after 3500kms, same brake fluid, same pads and rotors, nothing firmer or better brake feedback compare to OE new rubber line, only find it change better by investing a bigger rotor, pads and calipers.
I put stainless steel braided brake lines on my motorcycle years ago and I couldn’t believe how much better the braking feel was. I did the same to my car and not much difference. I took the steel braided lines off and put new rubber lines on.
One reason why many people see an improvement in brake pedal feel after upgrading is because they're replacing 15+ year old rubber hoses with brand new lines. They would've felt a difference too with new rubber hoses
Same goes with people talking down on "rubber bushings"..and wanting to put polyurethane bushings in their street car..and saying "those rubber bushings are crap compared to the nice colored poly bushes".They are comparing an old worn out part to a new "upgraded" part...and that automatically means that the original part is "crap."....man.....gotta love the 98percenters ;)
I replaced originally with new rubber lines. My peddle feel was still mushy. So I replaced the master cylinder, still mushy. Found a deal on stoptek steel braided lines. (Cost was similar to the rubber lines.) So I picked them up, replaced the front lines. Still mushy, replaced the rears then, no mushy feeling. All new fluid, I replace every year to year and a half, mostly because I want a regular change so I never forget.
I installed ss brake lines on my car just in the front. The brake pedal feel isnt really any different but the braking response is more immediate and responsive
fuckinlowdowndrummer deffinetly not true ..if u track ur car or even street race doing digs.upgrading the bushing is a must to prevent flex.another important part is if ur start making lower and the motor flex u will have shifting issue.these are things that I personally have been through
He's smart. Forums where some holy wars are waged debate this sort of "fine print". By giving you those hot links, you can easily copy & paste that into a forum to support an argument/claim, and he gets additional views. Win win.
I honestly want to know what can be done with that little thing. The driving ergonomics with the manual are surprisingly decent for such as small and cheap car. I'm sure it's not beating Civic Type R, ever, but...
In my opinion... The main reason is general brake feel, not necessarily during track conditions or from heat of the fluid expanding. The benefits are felt EVERY SINGLE TIME you press the brake pedal, at any speed. The oem rubber lines dont hold the 100's of psi (during even a regular brake application) without deforming slightly, which is felt in pedal feel. However, many cars have very soft cast brake calipers , that flex significantly as well. If you have basic cast calipers (or non-perfomance street pads with low initial bite), you will still have a spongy pedal feel even with the stainless steel lines, so just save your money. I agree on the downsides, however.
you dont know how long ive waited for this exact video!!! I am rebuilding my 1950 Cadillac and I really was confused on the benefit of steel brake lines !!
I found a good alternative to the Endless brake lines for the s2k. In my search to figure out if the endless lines would fit my 06+ ap2, I came upon spiegler. They are a well known, moto brake line manufacturer. Their lines swivel; they are DOT approved; and they are produced in Europe, but assembled in the USA.
+ayowser01 yeah speigler is amazing. You can buy or have lines custom made by endless by just contacting the company directly and it's about half the cost of buying it through any other place like evasive Motorsports Etc.
I've installed SS braided brake hoses on several my family's daily drivers. They get inspected @ every OCI, never had an issue. IMO, An emergency avoidance maneuver on public roads can warrant the same braking confidence that's relied on @ the track.
He described heat buildup in the fluid from repetitive hard breaking as the reason why stainless brake lines will hold their shape better in that hot condition. Built up heat wouldn't apply to a one-time emergency maneuver.
@@lawpenner While I won't doubt that brake fluid temps are consistently higher under track conditions, some moderately spirited driving on the hilly, winding roads of eastern PA can easily stress even the best DOT4 fluids, albeit @ shorter durations.
@@GspeedR love those winding roads on the hills of Pennsylvania. ...Except when I got hit by fog suddenly in the middle of the night, went off the road and ramped off a dirt pile launching my car 4 feet off the ground, then nose diving into the ground and jacking my alignment/suspension. Good memories
In 2013 I did z1 motorsports ss brake and clutch lines on my ‘06 350Z. I thought it was a tremendous upgrade. Brakes and clutch really firmed up and felt strong. Put them on my ‘15 Titan in 2018 and had the same experience: nice and firm brakes.
Savagegeese has videos just about everyday???? I can die a happy man now. Dude, good work on all of your videos, and the shoppe is sweet. Hurry up and get Scott back on the videos so that my life can be complete.
All your videos are very informative and helpful to me personally and Im sure to everyone else as well. I have decided not to go with SS lines for my S2000 after watching this video. Thank you always!
I understand where you are coming from with the turning and flex of the brake lines. On a track, as long as you are driving close to the race line, you are only using about 10% of the car's actual turning radius, thus these steel lines are not flexed or stressed like they would be with daily driving. So the car would rarely pull the steel brake line away from its original routing. However, daily driving, which has a lot of tight turns at street corners or during parking, need a flexible brake line that won't fight those tight turns.
I bought this for my CRF250L but to me I dont feel comfortable, when I pulled the front brake lever, i have to use 2 or 3 fingers, i find it hard to pull. I prefer the original line. For the rear brake line it is ok.
I kept my rubber brake lines but replaced the hard lines with stainless. Steel / zinc lines don't last very long in my location next to the Pacific Ocean. Copper nickle are better than steel, but for rust and corrosion prevention I think stainless hard lines should be better than copper nickle. My Steel / Zinc hard lines rusted so bad enough that both the hard lines and fittings needed to be cut off with cutters or a torch. If you're in a rust belt, go onto the ocean beach frequently, near salt water etc. I think stainless hard lines and fittings will last longer
I've put stainless steel brake lines on most of my performance cars, but I've always done it at the same time as upgrading rotors/pads/ fluid, etc. to be honest, unless I did heavy duty track driving with constant hard braking, I don't think they would make damn different in every day driving
Thank you for the info. I'm getting MTEC stainless steel lines put on my frs this week with rbf600 fluid and winmax w3 pads so ill be ready for the track next month
Mushy brakes come from rubber brake hoses. That may not be the only cause, but it doesn’t inspire confidence, that’s for sure. If there is a better alternative to braided stainless brake lines, I’m all ears. Not seeing that happening, but bring it if it comes out!
+Lewis Leong I don't think there is a standard replacement schedule its more about inspection every few months and also before each track day. If you are daily driving through winters, salt an snow, I would not run them.
I suppose without introducing extreme fluid temperatures, you should not be able to discern a difference between stainless and rubber lines. I know I couldn't. I decided to try them on my FRS. Could not feel any difference after I had properly bled all the air out. The pedal felt pretty good on the rubber lines and I'd be hard pressed to say that the steel lines made a difference.
So there might be a problem with the end fittings if you don’t install them correctly? Isn’t every part a possible liability for you don’t install them correctly? I don’t want any part of my hydraulic brake system expanding under any circumstances. Rubber also tends to dry out and deteriorate over time.
You should try cutting open a rubber line. They are far more durable than you'd think. I find the stainless steel lines far more prone to damage...at least on motorcycles. Also, the line expansion has nothing to do with heat. It just expands because of the pressure you're exerting by pressing the brake pedal.
So say you had a different type of competition, where you were trying to get the cars to last as many miles as possible without maintenance or repair, which lines would you use?
This usually isn't what I think when people talk about stainless steel lines, this guy is talking about the flexible stainless mesh lines to the caliber being problematic and that's understandable but the solid stainless steel lines (the stationary lines) are excellent if you live in the northern salt belt of the u.s. because basic steel lines rust out fast and they are a pain to deal with once they go, something I have the unwanted experience fixing... lol
What if you run a dot4 brake fluid with the rubber lines will that help with the mushy pedal feel since it has a higher temp range? Will it cause the rubber lines to expand less giving a firmer feel?
I believe they use steel braided line - but mainly because of the potential for damage. Steel braiding is less likely to be cut when a tyre kicks up a rock or five. :-)
One thing I didn't see mentioned also is stainless steel brake lines are also abrasive. Instead of rubber there's a PTFE line in there surrounded by a plastic cover to help prevent the stainless steel sheath from cutting into the line. Add in some road grit and tens of thousands of turns and flexing of the line inside the stainless steel sheath the brake lines are now a limited lifetime wear item. As it's life rubbing a piece of steel wool over the plastic protective cover every time you turn the steering wheel.
I'm looking into replacing mine on my daily driver. I live in Los Angeles. Believe it or not, I do feel brake fade in the hot summer weather on the rapid stop and go traffic. After replacing yours, can you tell me how the braking feels? Are your brakes wearing faster? What vehicle do you drive?
I live in LA too, I drive a 2001 toyota celica gt. After installing the lines the brake pedal feels very firm when breaking, however this does not translate to stoping power, and the ABS does seem to kick in faster, also the pads also wear faster. I would say that if you do not take your car the track just stick to the OEM lines and just upgrade you pads to cermic ones.
SS brake lines also benefit if you do any type of backroad or canyon driving. Fluids don't have to reach boiling point for you to feel the benefit of SS lines.
i use to track my z1000 on oe rubber hose the dual 4 pot tokico works a treat but after a few laps they start to get smoshier not much but the lever seem to go in deeper then when you first start after i replace to earls racing steel lines the braking pefromacne stays consistant troughtout the session for road i say the difference its unlikly to be noticable but when your fluid are hot from constant full braking corner after corner the rubber hose will degrade your performance as the laps piles up but if im honest on the road you barely feel the difference maybe abit of feel but definitly wont shorten your emergency braking distance to be honest
There is another reason for stainless steel brake lines, and that is feel. Knowing what is happening at the pad is another piece of telemetry that I appreciate. You don't need it on the street, but I have them for the feel. Just because you technically don't need them on a street car, doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. If your car is your love and you don't track it, there are better places to spend your money. Its just this guy's opinion from a practical perspective.
Yamaha recommends replacing motorcycle brake lines (and rebuilding the calipers) every few years. The makers of SS braided lines claim that their products will last the life of the vehicle. In addition, the OEM lines on ABS-equipped machines tend to have a lot of hard steel tubing so the amount of rubber hose is much less and the benefit of aftermarket braided lines (without these sections of hard tubing) is also reduced. I also have concerns that the OEM ABS system is tuned for the dynamic response of rubber hoses and might not perform as designed with braided lines. I wish someone competent would do a video on this application. Too many questions...
Dynamic response? That's where you went wrong. Rubber hoses have a delay believe it or not hence the ABS SYSTEM ASSISTING YOU IN BRAKING BECAUSE IT KNOWS "MY BRAKE LINES CAN'T TAKE THAT PRESSURE SO FAST, SO I'LL HELP PUSH IT"
Very informative, really looking forward to this "fine print" line of videos, glad to see you trying new things with the channel. It's turning into one of my favorite car related TH-cam destinations.
Thanks for this. I was considering putting some braided lines on while doing the brake pads, but I think I'll just use some new rubber lines, since the ones on there now are about 12-13 years old. I don't do serious track driving, because I don't really have the spare time or money to get into it. Fundamentally, even though I do like to go fast, it's still just street driving.
The stainless lines can make a huge difference. If you have a mushy feel, it's a great upgrade. If you don't have a mushy feel, but get brake fade then just get pads and fluid. Aftermarket master cylinders is where the shit is at!
Don't feel bad, the SS lines will give you much better pedal feel because there's no expansion on the lines from the hydraulic pressure. Its worth it, nothing scary about it. These lines are used in the racing world where they're tortured, they wont fall apart at the fittings.
Not alot of people really talk about these braided plastic lines wear out very quickly, leak, and come apart at the terminations after all those expansion and contractions wear out the plastic at the termination joints, yes what they call stainless braided lines are basically a plastic like material line, many have had lines severed at the terminations, good for track and feel, doesn't last on the street, these braided lines are dangerous on the street , even if you inspect them you never know when they will shear off at the terminations, rubber hoses are much much more forgiving aka flexible and last basically the life of the car, if only someone came out with super high quality hybrid brake lines without the shearing issues at the terminations.
I love my goodridge ss lines. the feel is amazing and adds to performance just because of that. It is very vaulable on the street imo. THe brakes are the most important thing on a car. I will have them on all my cars.
Adding rigid, or semi-flexible metal brake lines between the wheel and body is really stupid. Especially when considering that stainless steel is more brittle than regular steel to begin with. Have a look at how hard a front suspension work, and you'll realize how quickly those metal lines will break... th-cam.com/video/0uPB8s6jSl4/w-d-xo.html
Line expansion sucks. You guys have no idea unless you brake hard at near the limits. On the highway when racing, you want as much stopping power as possible. This way you can type here after racing hard on the streets like you didn't race at all.
Nope you will be stopping sooner with old cars Put them on a non-abs car More feel = more balls to smash them harder = stopping earlier You WILL notice on the streets when you get in a situation you have to slam the brakes
Hot brake fluid isn't expanding the rubber line, it's the pressure the master cylinder is generating to stop the car. If the fluid expands due to heat, it is equalized throughout the system every time you let off the brake pedal. If the fluid gets so hot it boils, no hose construction can help you there. The stainless braid simply constricts the pliable inner hose(often teflon) to prevent it from expanding under normal, everyday braking. Motorcyclists put them on all the time to get a firmer brake lever feel.
+horus909 Its a combination effect of pressure and heat expansion. A brake line with 100F fluid and 1800psi will expand less than a brake line with brake fluid at 550F at 1800psi. The older the rubber lines the more expansion is noticeable. Which translates into some pedal feel difference, but unlike motor cycles its less noticable in street cars.
I've went back and forth on this decision for some time but yeah I don't track my car and am satisfied with the brake pedal feel etc so I will keep my rubber stock lines and when they need replacement I'll replace with another set of rubber stock lines or OE quality rubber ones. Just not worth it to me. One thing on my car (2015 WRX with 107K miles) that improved brake pedal feel was the Perrin master cylinder brace. My brake calipers are 100% stock. I recently had to replace the rear calipers (found a pair of them new) as they were starting to just fail on me and seize up. Replaced along with rotors and pads. Duralast Elite pads and Duralast rotors (smooth surface no slotted/dimpled). I use Dot 5.1 Motul brake fluid.
Agreed. I have two of the same car, one with the stainless lines (among other things), and one without. The difference is obvious even on the commute. It's good information, though, especially since indeed my first set leaked almost immediately, likely do to installation error (had a shop do it). That said, the replacement set has been going strong for six years now.
Don’t let this guy scare you with his video warning ⚠️ There’s nothing wrong with stainless braided brake lines Had them on all my vehicles NEVER AN ISSUE!!!! This kind of scare tactic pisses me off🤬😡 It’s stupid and useless Just because he had an issue doesn’t mean your going to.
So the TL;DR sounds to me that they're superior to traditional lines in just about every appreciable way except for long-term durability. At $72/set for my Miata without ABS, I'll try it lol
Its not about lines expanding from heat, its about lines elastically expanding from pedal force. The imprecision added when some of the force applied is spent expanding lines. Imprecise and inconsistent. Stainless steel lines do not accomplish this because of the stainless exterior braiding (if ever seen Chinese finger puzzle clear why). Tbey do it by virtue of the teflon inner core that is commonly part of stainless lines. Its possible to use teflon core woth rubber lines. Might be ideal for street car that doesn't need abrasion and puncture resistance that the stainless braid is providing. But near impossible to find aftermarket (because every wants cool factor of stainless braid). But I bet some of those high performance exotic cars mentioned have teflon lines stock.
Why would the SS brake lines be breaking more if installed correctly? What seems to be an asterisk that isnt properly discussed, is installation error. I want to see testing comparing SS vs rubber installed properly, I'll put $1000 on SS
So, it turns out it is almost impossible to get Honda OEM replacement rubber brake lines for ap1s right now. If OEM is unavailable, is there another source for high quality rubber replacement brakes lines for the ap1? Or, is stainless the only option at the moment.
The real question is difficult to detect rust in the FIXED lines. This potentially deadly problem is not even mentioned in this video. Steel in not flexible. So if the object is obtain maximum life insurance. Fine.. use braided rubber/ stainless fittings that flex and for Gods sake give us “lifetime” non corroding fixed lines and non porous steel or plastic master cylinders.
Working as a mechanic for 11 years on many high performance cars and vintage race cars we installed and serviced a lot of flexible stainless brake lines. We installed top brands like Spiegler and Earl's. Many of these brake line installations failed within just a few months. Flexible ends or not, this hardware is not really suitable for everyday street use. There is simply more flex at the line ends than the lines can handle, and the hose ends up splitting close to the end fitting. It is even a problem for race cars. The rubber hoses can tolerate a lot more flex cycles than the stainless hose.
Is it good practice to change the rubber brake lines depending on the cars' age? This is assuming no visual leakage or damage present.
@@kalani1987 it makes sense to change them on old cars, I would not trust them after 15 years or more.
@@kalani1987 I know my motorcycle is not a car but my service manual said to replace brake lines every 4 years.
Interesting. I also work for a high-end repair facility(20+ yrs) but have no experience the brands that you mentioned. I currently have StopTech lines on my Honda and Techna-Fit lines on my daughter's Nissan. Both have DOT approved fittings and have shown no signs of flexing failure. I sold my previous Volvo 240 with IPD lines that endured over 12 years/200k miles. Correct routing is essential and the technician was meticulous during those installs. I would tend to think that any SS braided brake hose that encounters more stress than it's rubber counterpart would be due to a poorly designed/built hose and/or improper routing during installation.
@@GspeedR good to know
I put Stainless Steel brake lines on my motorcycle. I simply did it because I found the braking "Feel" to be much better. Very firm levers after installed. Of course part of this could be the fact that I installed new fluid and made sure they were bled to perfection. Nevertheless, they were red. I like red.
BadShadd1 I've put them on almost every motorcycle I've owned. Make the braking great.
Regular maintenance is probably a better investment on such a light vehicle. How often are rubber brake lines supposed to be changed on a bike, and who really does it to that schedule?
I used to do the stainless thing. Then I found that it's really hard to tell the difference between stainless and _new_ rubber lines - but most people are comparing them to the old, worn-out rubber lines that they're replacing. if you're a professional (with a like skill set) or if you're driving off-road a lot, I can see the point. But for spirited driving or the occasional track day - probably not worth the expense.
@@aussiebloke609 I absolutely agree with your on this point, I got my WRX braided brake line replace on my new WRX after 3500kms, same brake fluid, same pads and rotors, nothing firmer or better brake feedback compare to OE new rubber line, only find it change better by investing a bigger rotor, pads and calipers.
I put stainless steel braided brake lines on my motorcycle years ago and I couldn’t believe how much better the braking feel was. I did the same to my car and not much difference. I took the steel braided lines off and put new rubber lines on.
One reason why many people see an improvement in brake pedal feel after upgrading is because they're replacing 15+ year old rubber hoses with brand new lines. They would've felt a difference too with new rubber hoses
Same goes with people talking down on "rubber bushings"..and wanting to put polyurethane bushings in their street car..and saying "those rubber bushings are crap compared to the nice colored poly bushes".They are comparing an old worn out part to a new "upgraded" part...and that automatically means that the original part is "crap."....man.....gotta love the 98percenters ;)
15+ year rubber brake lines AND 15+ year old fluid!!!!!!
I replaced originally with new rubber lines. My peddle feel was still mushy. So I replaced the master cylinder, still mushy. Found a deal on stoptek steel braided lines. (Cost was similar to the rubber lines.) So I picked them up, replaced the front lines. Still mushy, replaced the rears then, no mushy feeling. All new fluid, I replace every year to year and a half, mostly because I want a regular change so I never forget.
I installed ss brake lines on my car just in the front. The brake pedal feel isnt really any different but the braking response is more immediate and responsive
fuckinlowdowndrummer deffinetly not true ..if u track ur car or even street race doing digs.upgrading the bushing is a must to prevent flex.another important part is if ur start making lower and the motor flex u will have shifting issue.these are things that I personally have been through
This video and the fact that you bothered to time stamp the description are reasons you deserve 1M subs. Go, go, go!
He's smart. Forums where some holy wars are waged debate this sort of "fine print". By giving you those hot links, you can easily copy & paste that into a forum to support an argument/claim, and he gets additional views. Win win.
For sure. It's a great video with good info and feels pretty unbiased.
pretty unbiased video!!!
And that is.... THE FINE PRINT
+TheStraightPipes Yo straight pipes can we collab on a Mitsubishi Mirage Hello Kitty Edition?
savagegeese find one and we'll book the next flight out
I honestly want to know what can be done with that little thing. The driving ergonomics with the manual are surprisingly decent for such as small and cheap car. I'm sure it's not beating Civic Type R, ever, but...
In my opinion...
The main reason is general brake feel, not necessarily during track conditions or from heat of the fluid expanding. The benefits are felt EVERY SINGLE TIME you press the brake pedal, at any speed. The oem rubber lines dont hold the 100's of psi (during even a regular brake application) without deforming slightly, which is felt in pedal feel.
However, many cars have very soft cast brake calipers , that flex significantly as well. If you have basic cast calipers (or non-perfomance street pads with low initial bite), you will still have a spongy pedal feel even with the stainless steel lines, so just save your money.
I agree on the downsides, however.
That spongy feel is the worst. I had mine's installed because of this
Need to change the Brake master cylinder
Rubber it is
Very informative video man, keep up the good work
Would ribbed rubber feel any better ?.
This was a perfect "philosophy of use" analysis. Great video!
Awesome reviews I like how you give the pros and cons to what real world people would go through or deal with.
stumbled on this video and it helped me make my decision. I almost went stainless because mine are getting mushy, but glad I did research first
Every word you said is wisdom.Polite,humble,spot on.
you dont know how long ive waited for this exact video!!! I am rebuilding my 1950 Cadillac and I really was confused on the benefit of steel brake lines !!
I found a good alternative to the Endless brake lines for the s2k. In my search to figure out if the endless lines would fit my 06+ ap2, I came upon spiegler. They are a well known, moto brake line manufacturer. Their lines swivel; they are DOT approved; and they are produced in Europe, but assembled in the USA.
+ayowser01 yeah speigler is amazing. You can buy or have lines custom made by endless by just contacting the company directly and it's about half the cost of buying it through any other place like evasive Motorsports Etc.
savagegeese good info. I guess if my Spiegler lines ever need replacing I know who to contact next.
Do they make them for Ford Excursion ?
I've installed SS braided brake hoses on several my family's daily drivers. They get inspected @ every OCI, never had an issue. IMO, An emergency avoidance maneuver on public roads can warrant the same braking confidence that's relied on @ the track.
He described heat buildup in the fluid from repetitive hard breaking as the reason why stainless brake lines will hold their shape better in that hot condition. Built up heat wouldn't apply to a one-time emergency maneuver.
@@lawpenner While I won't doubt that brake fluid temps are consistently higher under track conditions, some moderately spirited driving on the hilly, winding roads of eastern PA can easily stress even the best DOT4 fluids, albeit @ shorter durations.
@@GspeedR love those winding roads on the hills of Pennsylvania. ...Except when I got hit by fog suddenly in the middle of the night, went off the road and ramped off a dirt pile launching my car 4 feet off the ground, then nose diving into the ground and jacking my alignment/suspension. Good memories
In 2013 I did z1 motorsports ss brake and clutch lines on my ‘06 350Z. I thought it was a tremendous upgrade. Brakes and clutch really firmed up and felt strong. Put them on my ‘15 Titan in 2018 and had the same experience: nice and firm brakes.
Great vid saved me some money that I was gonna waste while upgrading my braking components thank you! Very informative
Savagegeese has videos just about everyday???? I can die a happy man now. Dude, good work on all of your videos, and the shoppe is sweet. Hurry up and get Scott back on the videos so that my life can be complete.
Madeline, as do I. His rye sense of humor goes perfectly with the videos he's in.
Sweet lord, legit information in a consumable package. Very nice video as per usual.
All your videos are very informative and helpful to me personally and Im sure to everyone else as well. I have decided not to go with SS lines for my S2000 after watching this video. Thank you always!
Thank you. Great info. Level headed & honest. No hype no bias
Very timely watch for me. Getting a quote on a brake upgrade today.
I’ll save you some time:
1) Why steel braided brake lines?
• Because they don’t expand. Period.
2) Do you need them for the street?
• No.
I understand where you are coming from with the turning and flex of the brake lines. On a track, as long as you are driving close to the race line, you are only using about 10% of the car's actual turning radius, thus these steel lines are not flexed or stressed like they would be with daily driving. So the car would rarely pull the steel brake line away from its original routing. However, daily driving, which has a lot of tight turns at street corners or during parking, need a flexible brake line that won't fight those tight turns.
I bought this for my CRF250L but to me I dont feel comfortable, when I pulled the front brake lever, i have to use 2 or 3 fingers, i find it hard to pull. I prefer the original line. For the rear brake line it is ok.
Excellent explanation and a good watch. Much appreciated!
I kept my rubber brake lines but replaced the hard lines with stainless. Steel / zinc lines don't last very long in my location next to the Pacific Ocean. Copper nickle are better than steel, but for rust and corrosion prevention I think stainless hard lines should be better than copper nickle. My Steel / Zinc hard lines rusted so bad enough that both the hard lines and fittings needed to be cut off with cutters or a torch. If you're in a rust belt, go onto the ocean beach frequently, near salt water etc. I think stainless hard lines and fittings will last longer
They can also be useful in adding confidence if you have a vehicle with off road capability.
I've put stainless steel brake lines on most of my performance cars, but I've always done it at the same time as upgrading rotors/pads/ fluid, etc. to be honest, unless I did heavy duty track driving with constant hard braking, I don't think they would make damn different in every day driving
Bravo. Great information here & looking forward to more fine print videos.
How could you possibly dislike this video?!
Thank you for the info. I'm getting MTEC stainless steel lines put on my frs this week with rbf600 fluid and winmax w3 pads so ill be ready for the track next month
Mushy brakes come from rubber brake hoses. That may not be the only cause, but it doesn’t inspire confidence, that’s for sure. If there is a better alternative to braided stainless brake lines, I’m all ears. Not seeing that happening, but bring it if it comes out!
If the risk is from improper installation then do it right. I put steel braid lines on my R6 and the levers like a rock 😍
Where I live, traffic can get so bad I've actually noticed brake fade while commuting.
Very informative. Like this vein of videos. Keep up the good work.
Very intersting.
I have Brembos and their SS lines that came with the calipers. I will inspect them.
Love this new series! Question about SS lines: how often should they be replaced, if at all?
+Lewis Leong I don't think there is a standard replacement schedule its more about inspection every few months and also before each track day. If you are daily driving through winters, salt an snow, I would not run them.
I suppose without introducing extreme fluid temperatures, you should not be able to discern a difference between stainless and rubber lines. I know I couldn't. I decided to try them on my FRS. Could not feel any difference after I had properly bled all the air out. The pedal felt pretty good on the rubber lines and I'd be hard pressed to say that the steel lines made a difference.
I just had an oem stainless steel line blow while a rubber one beside did not.
Good info in a quick, short vid. Thanks!
So there might be a problem with the end fittings if you don’t install them correctly? Isn’t every part a possible liability for you don’t install them correctly? I don’t want any part of my hydraulic brake system expanding under any circumstances. Rubber also tends to dry out and deteriorate over time.
You should try cutting open a rubber line. They are far more durable than you'd think. I find the stainless steel lines far more prone to damage...at least on motorcycles. Also, the line expansion has nothing to do with heat. It just expands because of the pressure you're exerting by pressing the brake pedal.
Does the concerns mean the same for clutch lines?
So say you had a different type of competition, where you were trying to get the cars to last as many miles as possible without maintenance or repair, which lines would you use?
Such an excellent informative video, subscribed.
Love the series guys
The Fine Print.....Soooo Good!!!
I super enjoyed that! Thanks for the tips!
Thanks for the video
This usually isn't what I think when people talk about stainless steel lines, this guy is talking about the flexible stainless mesh lines to the caliber being problematic and that's understandable but the solid stainless steel lines (the stationary lines) are excellent if you live in the northern salt belt of the u.s. because basic steel lines rust out fast and they are a pain to deal with once they go, something I have the unwanted experience fixing... lol
So what is the Best braided line that swivles that will work for stock size Ford Excursion ?
What if you run a dot4 brake fluid with the rubber lines will that help with the mushy pedal feel since it has a higher temp range? Will it cause the rubber lines to expand less giving a firmer feel?
Braking fluid mostly gets hot due to the pressure.
Thoughts on stainless clutch lines which are also apparently a thing.
What's your opinion on stainless hydraulic clutch lines?
Awesome.. I did not know this. Thank you
What about ralley drivers? What do they use?
I believe they use steel braided line - but mainly because of the potential for damage. Steel braiding is less likely to be cut when a tyre kicks up a rock or five. :-)
Sounds to me like companies need to start developing an upgraded rubber option then.
Appreciate this video. I was gonna spend unnecessary money.
Did you run them on your FRS through the winter, debating on getting them for my 17 wrx?
+malkionx never ran them in salt and snow, the corrosion would be a concern.
Most of them name a coating of some sort usually teflon wondering if that would be sufficient. I park on the street so the salt attacks it 24/7
What about braided steel lines?
"Light Bulb Moment!!!!!"
WOW
The word on the street is that turbosky uses stainless steel condoms 👏
+Edgardo Amado He does not use protection.
Scott is going to be the next person to have Chuck Norris-esque jokes created after him... I hope... :-)
Nah the protection isn't for him, if you know what i mean.
Man succeeded in scaring the shit outta us that wanted to upgrade to braided stainless steel lines.
Exactly ahahahah
Right, we all looking @ each other like WTF....
One thing I didn't see mentioned also is stainless steel brake lines are also abrasive. Instead of rubber there's a PTFE line in there surrounded by a plastic cover to help prevent the stainless steel sheath from cutting into the line. Add in some road grit and tens of thousands of turns and flexing of the line inside the stainless steel sheath the brake lines are now a limited lifetime wear item. As it's life rubbing a piece of steel wool over the plastic protective cover every time you turn the steering wheel.
Lol 🤣 hell no
Basically, you don’t need a 4000 dollar suit if you’re working at Del taco..
Lol
Hot brake fluid can't melt steel beams
It was an inside job! ;)
Some planes don't have black box.
can too!
So can jet fuel ⛽️
@@EJL2004 Lol.
This is a great series, really appreciate the unbiased information
I just found this video after installing stoptech stainless steel lines in my daily driver 😅
I'm looking into replacing mine on my daily driver. I live in Los Angeles. Believe it or not, I do feel brake fade in the hot summer weather on the rapid stop and go traffic. After replacing yours, can you tell me how the braking feels? Are your brakes wearing faster? What vehicle do you drive?
One last question, do you feel like your ABS kicks in way faster?
I live in LA too, I drive a 2001 toyota celica gt. After installing the lines the brake pedal feels very firm when breaking, however this does not translate to stoping power, and the ABS does seem to kick in faster, also the pads also wear faster. I would say that if you do not take your car the track just stick to the OEM lines and just upgrade you pads to cermic ones.
StopTech ones are DOT approved at least, so no big issues there if you install it right.
Same. Luckily I could only do one side since I stripped the brake line nut on the other (didn't use a flare wrench)
SS brake lines also benefit if you do any type of backroad or canyon driving. Fluids don't have to reach boiling point for you to feel the benefit of SS lines.
i use to track my z1000 on oe rubber hose the dual 4 pot tokico works a treat but after a few laps they start to get smoshier not much but the lever seem to go in deeper then when you first start after i replace to earls racing steel lines the braking pefromacne stays consistant troughtout the session for road i say the difference its unlikly to be noticable but when your fluid are hot from constant full braking corner after corner the rubber hose will degrade your performance as the laps piles up but if im honest on the road you barely feel the difference maybe abit of feel but definitly wont shorten your emergency braking distance to be honest
This is me with my personal car in Mexico. Lots of twisty roads in the mountains, especially going downhill.
Track driving or living in Germany and braking at 170mph lol
Good honest review. I upgraded to SS lines two weeks ago... absolutely no difference on the street.
My experience as well. Huge improvement on my motorcycle though.
Great job! You could make a part 2 about race brake fluid and pads?
There is another reason for stainless steel brake lines, and that is feel. Knowing what is happening at the pad is another piece of telemetry that I appreciate. You don't need it on the street, but I have them for the feel. Just because you technically don't need them on a street car, doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. If your car is your love and you don't track it, there are better places to spend your money. Its just this guy's opinion from a practical perspective.
Savagegeese you and engineering explained should do a track day competition with the S2000's!
+Be_Easy yeah that would probably be a fun time.
Yamaha recommends replacing motorcycle brake lines (and rebuilding the calipers) every few years. The makers of SS braided lines claim that their products will last the life of the vehicle. In addition, the OEM lines on ABS-equipped machines tend to have a lot of hard steel tubing so the amount of rubber hose is much less and the benefit of aftermarket braided lines (without these sections of hard tubing) is also reduced. I also have concerns that the OEM ABS system is tuned for the dynamic response of rubber hoses and might not perform as designed with braided lines. I wish someone competent would do a video on this application. Too many questions...
Dynamic response? That's where you went wrong. Rubber hoses have a delay believe it or not hence the ABS SYSTEM ASSISTING YOU IN BRAKING BECAUSE IT KNOWS "MY BRAKE LINES CAN'T TAKE THAT PRESSURE SO FAST, SO I'LL HELP PUSH IT"
Very informative, really looking forward to this "fine print" line of videos, glad to see you trying new things with the channel. It's turning into one of my favorite car related TH-cam destinations.
My stainless lines been on my car for 4 years no problems. It's a street and track car. I think it comes down to maintenance.
Same.... I swear you feel a difference/ it's more important with no abs and a lightweight car
How does one '' maintain'' a stainless steel brake line?
I'm trying to find out what company / brand is best to buy for my Ford Excursion. What did You use ? Or what is Best ?
Love this new series. I'm really glad you started it. No doubt, you're the most real car TH-camr I've watched. Your channel is fantastic.
Thanks for this. I was considering putting some braided lines on while doing the brake pads, but I think I'll just use some new rubber lines, since the ones on there now are about 12-13 years old. I don't do serious track driving, because I don't really have the spare time or money to get into it. Fundamentally, even though I do like to go fast, it's still just street driving.
The stainless lines can make a huge difference. If you have a mushy feel, it's a great upgrade. If you don't have a mushy feel, but get brake fade then just get pads and fluid. Aftermarket master cylinders is where the shit is at!
MotoBoy there aren't many aftermarket cylinders on offer unless you want a full race car (Tilton). It's not exactly like the moto world.
ayowser01 aah good to see ya princess
Should have watched this before I bought my stainless steel brake lines.
Don't feel bad, the SS lines will give you much better pedal feel because there's no expansion on the lines from the hydraulic pressure. Its worth it, nothing scary about it. These lines are used in the racing world where they're tortured, they wont fall apart at the fittings.
Not alot of people really talk about these braided plastic lines wear out very quickly, leak, and come apart at the terminations after all those expansion and contractions wear out the plastic at the termination joints, yes what they call stainless braided lines are basically a plastic like material line, many have had lines severed at the terminations, good for track and feel, doesn't last on the street, these braided lines are dangerous on the street , even if you inspect them you never know when they will shear off at the terminations, rubber hoses are much much more forgiving aka flexible and last basically the life of the car, if only someone came out with super high quality hybrid brake lines without the shearing issues at the terminations.
Same car as Engineering Explained?
+Chr Gav Same car different year.
first gen vs. second gen... but same color, yes!
I love my goodridge ss lines. the feel is amazing and adds to performance just because of that. It is very vaulable on the street imo. THe brakes are the most important thing on a car. I will have them on all my cars.
I also feel like they make more of a positive impact on non-ABS cars.
If you have an upgraded turbo running 500-700 rwhp... and you drive like a maniac... perhaps they might be useful.
Adding rigid, or semi-flexible metal brake lines between the wheel and body is really stupid. Especially when considering that stainless steel is more brittle than regular steel to begin with. Have a look at how hard a front suspension work, and you'll realize how quickly those metal lines will break... th-cam.com/video/0uPB8s6jSl4/w-d-xo.html
It's a track day bro type mod. Got it.
It does add a different, sometimes more stiff feeling pedal. But at the risks he mentioned, I'd rather just stick with "Its a track day bro type mod"
Line expansion sucks. You guys have no idea unless you brake hard at near the limits. On the highway when racing, you want as much stopping power as possible. This way you can type here after racing hard on the streets like you didn't race at all.
Nope you will be stopping sooner with old cars
Put them on a non-abs car
More feel = more balls to smash them harder = stopping earlier
You WILL notice on the streets when you get in a situation you have to slam the brakes
Your a track day mod.. lol
Hot brake fluid isn't expanding the rubber line, it's the pressure the master cylinder is generating to stop the car. If the fluid expands due to heat, it is equalized throughout the system every time you let off the brake pedal. If the fluid gets so hot it boils, no hose construction can help you there. The stainless braid simply constricts the pliable inner hose(often teflon) to prevent it from expanding under normal, everyday braking. Motorcyclists put them on all the time to get a firmer brake lever feel.
+horus909 Its a combination effect of pressure and heat expansion. A brake line with 100F fluid and 1800psi will expand less than a brake line with brake fluid at 550F at 1800psi. The older the rubber lines the more expansion is noticeable. Which translates into some pedal feel difference, but unlike motor cycles its less noticable in street cars.
I've went back and forth on this decision for some time but yeah I don't track my car and am satisfied with the brake pedal feel etc so I will keep my rubber stock lines and when they need replacement I'll replace with another set of rubber stock lines or OE quality rubber ones. Just not worth it to me.
One thing on my car (2015 WRX with 107K miles) that improved brake pedal feel was the Perrin master cylinder brace. My brake calipers are 100% stock. I recently had to replace the rear calipers (found a pair of them new) as they were starting to just fail on me and seize up. Replaced along with rotors and pads. Duralast Elite pads and Duralast rotors (smooth surface no slotted/dimpled). I use Dot 5.1 Motul brake fluid.
I really like how they make the brake pedal feel as well. The pedal feels a lot stiffer, and makes me more confident in my car.
Agreed. I have two of the same car, one with the stainless lines (among other things), and one without. The difference is obvious even on the commute. It's good information, though, especially since indeed my first set leaked almost immediately, likely do to installation error (had a shop do it). That said, the replacement set has been going strong for six years now.
Very informative - thanks for the thorough, no BS explanation!
Don’t let this guy scare you with his video warning ⚠️
There’s nothing wrong with stainless braided brake lines
Had them on all my vehicles
NEVER AN ISSUE!!!!
This kind of scare tactic pisses me off🤬😡
It’s stupid and useless
Just because he had an issue doesn’t mean your going to.
I love your Fine print videos. You go into topics that aren't always well-covered. It's pretty cool. Keep it up
So the TL;DR sounds to me that they're superior to traditional lines in just about every appreciable way except for long-term durability. At $72/set for my Miata without ABS, I'll try it lol
Its not about lines expanding from heat, its about lines elastically expanding from pedal force. The imprecision added when some of the force applied is spent expanding lines. Imprecise and inconsistent.
Stainless steel lines do not accomplish this because of the stainless exterior braiding (if ever seen Chinese finger puzzle clear why). Tbey do it by virtue of the teflon inner core that is commonly part of stainless lines.
Its possible to use teflon core woth rubber lines. Might be ideal for street car that doesn't need abrasion and puncture resistance that the stainless braid is providing. But near impossible to find aftermarket (because every wants cool factor of stainless braid).
But I bet some of those high performance exotic cars
mentioned have teflon lines stock.
Why would the SS brake lines be breaking more if installed correctly?
What seems to be an asterisk that isnt properly discussed, is installation error.
I want to see testing comparing SS vs rubber installed properly, I'll put $1000 on SS
So, it turns out it is almost impossible to get Honda OEM replacement rubber brake lines for ap1s right now. If OEM is unavailable, is there another source for high quality rubber replacement brakes lines for the ap1? Or, is stainless the only option at the moment.
Ant Dawg
2700lb car with 330whp and adding another 50hp with aux fuel this weekend, do I need steel brake lines?
LOL
The real question is difficult to detect rust in the FIXED lines. This potentially deadly problem is not even mentioned in this video. Steel in not flexible. So if the object is obtain maximum life insurance.
Fine.. use braided rubber/ stainless fittings that flex and for Gods sake give us “lifetime” non corroding fixed lines and non porous steel or plastic master cylinders.