Steel Vs Rubber Brake Lines - Are Stainless Steel Lines Silly?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- Are stainless steel brake lines better? What are the advantages of steel brake lines? What are the disadvantages of rubber brake lines? The reason people buy steel braided brake lines typically comes down to looks, perceived quality, durability in harsh environments, and firmer brake pedal feel. Rubber brakes, on the other hand, can also have a firm brake feel, are cheaper and effective, are not abrasive, and are easier to inspect.
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Great video. I was a hose development engineer for 30+ years and would just like to add that nylon fiber is NEVER used as a brake hose reinforcing material. To minimize volumetric expansion of a rubber hose - i.e. pedal firmness, fibers such as PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) or aramid (Kevlar) are often used with rubber hose. Steel wire however has the lowest elongation and therefore lowest volumetric expansion of any of these other synthetic fiber reinforcements.
Thanks for sharing your insight!
Kickass niche job! I love hearing tidbits and explanations like this.
I would say yes, but the hoses are only one component in the brake hydraulic circuit, so the overall difference may be relatively small. But if you have long hoses and / or run very high temps on your brakes - i.e. race applications, there will be a noticeable difference in pedal feel.
So buy a quality hose rather than the cheapest one as aramid etc is expensive. However I don't see the braided lines doing much. It still has a synthetic rubber core and it would depend how tight the steel braiding around this core is, otherwise it can still expand.
@Iron *Fe* The excess volume of brake fluid will end up in the reservoir. Steel isn't used, even in Ferraris etc The flexible line is only there to prevent damage to the line for the wheel suspension. Steel braided lines do not flex as much, which causes premature failure. On a track where the wheel moves relatively little, it's fine. On the road where there are numerous bumps etc... it will fail prematurely. Other thing is, people think a rubber hose is just rubber. It's not, there are complex weaves of aramid or similar fibres encased in synthetic rubber... it doesn't "stretch" as much as you think. What most people do is compare their 10 year old lines to brand new ones... there is obviously going to be a difference, just like there would be with brand new rubber lines from a respected manufacturer!
DOT-Approved brake lines are tested to 3000psi, as I recall. If you ever have a chance to cut one in half to have a look at the cross-section, they're rather impressive little things. Their size is deceiving; they may look like they'd be huge inside and have all sorts of space to expand, but in reality, your typical rubber line is upwards of half an inch on the outside, while the internal passage the brake fluid travels through is less than an 1/8th of an inch. There's a lot of material in there, and it's multiple layers of various materials. The inner lining is compatible with brake fluid, that gets wrapped in a woven fiber sheathing, which then gets another rubber sheathing over it, and yet another, thicker wrap of EPDM rubber over that to protect the inner linings from debris, environmental exposure and the various oils and other fluids that may leak from the engine bay. They're pretty spectacular little things when you consider that they'll commonly go 100,000+ miles without failing.
I don't use brake lines. Weight reduction bro.
+bshawn41 ^^ This guy gets it.
What's your brake hose weight reduction to sticker application weight ratio?
Lifted_Above 1 to 20
Fred Flinstone style.
MAXIMUM ATTACK
I'm a brake engineer and have a few comments here if I may. When you say "I've driven lots of vehicles with rubber lines that have a firm brake pedal" yes that will be true, especially if they are relatively NEW vehicles, but have you actually ever done a back-to-back comparison on that SAME vehicle? I have, and the difference is definitely perceivable.... It's a bit of a case of 'you don't know what you're missing till you've tried it'.
You also gloss over a key detail, that is that rubber lines perish over time and periodically need replacing. Most vehicle manufacturers recommend the rubber lines to be replaced between 2-5 years. When brand new, rubber lines perform virtually identically to stainless braided lines, but if you do a back-to-back test on say a 5 year old rubber line vs. a 5 year old stainless line you'll find that the pedal feel is significantly better on the stainless braided lines.
Braided stainless lines are much more resilient and never need replacing over a 'normal' vehicle lifecycle, thats why most braided lines come with a lifetime warranty. The fact that aftermarket stainless steel lines are also often CHEAPER than buying new rubber lines from the manufacturer means they're a bit of a 'no brainer' upgrade. Install them and you never have to worry about the brake lines for decades and the pedal feel remains firm forever.
Thank you. You summed up everything this video missed.
Wear and tear over time Vs pedal feel.
Ta very mucha, I just bought stainless lines to replace 25 year old lines so I might have made the right choice. Not yet delivered.
I have never seen a more expensive rubber line than a braided alternative. . . but they sure don't test the aging lines, for sure.
There are a couple of additional benefits of stainless steel braided Teflon lined brake hoses:
(1) Higher tolerance of elevated temperature operation.
(2) Broader fluid compatibility. Some factory rubber brake hoses are not compatible with some high performance/competition brake fluids.
(3) Higher maximum working pressure and higher burst pressure than rubber brake hoses.
(4) Stainless steel braided Teflon lined brake hoses are available in custom configurations including inner diameter, length, termination fittings, mounting, and max working pressure,.
(5) Most SS braided Teflon lined brake hoses are more flexible that their rubber counter parts and usually will safely operate with less bend radius without loss of performance.
(6) Increased safety from incidental hot fluid/heat/fire exposure (increased exposure time before failure).
(6.a) Certain sanctioning bodies specify and mandate SS braided Teflon lined brake hoses for safety reasons.
It should also be noted that not all SS braided brake hose/line assemblies are street legal and or DOT compliant/certified/approved.
+patw52pb1 Dude...how do you even know this stuff?
+patw52pb1 Wow you can read the brochure
-Sean Boswell
+123 456
Easy, it is my job to know.
+Chuck Salerno
Wow, incorrect.
What brochure?
+patw52pb1 its a joke from fast and furious bro chill
i swapped for steel brake lines and i love them! Much stiffer brake feel! If you want it even stiffer then you should check the moving of your master cylinder (the whole assembly) as you press the pedal the firewall might move with it a bit. Construct a limit stop from a firm spot i.ex the driver side strut mount to the master cylinder to prevent it moving forward.
as much as i know this guy knows his stuff...he really takes the fun out of modifying a car lol. if we all listened to him we would just drive around stock cars and not do a single thing to them. i know sometimes oem is just fine but in the last 15yrs of automotive work ive done in and out of shops...i have enjoyed modifying and experimenting with different things. ive learned alot from both hands on and reading about automotive things.
Jason, good video, I agree that OEM rubber lines are pretty decent. I don't go replacing them when they're new unless it's for performance applications. I have two points to add from my experience working on cars for a living.
1) There hasn't been one car yet, in all the cars I've converted, that didn't see at least SOME brake pedal feel improvement by switching to SS.
2) Rubber lines expand under pressure, but more often I replace them after suspecting an internal collapse. The outside will appear fine, but the inside is not. You can't inspect for that. So you're left with a line that opens up under pressure, but collapses internally when you let off the pedal. This can hold hydraulic pressure in the system at the caliper or slave cylinder if it's a clutch system. This inability to completely relieve pressure leads to warped brake rotors and slipping clutches.
I never say never, but I've yet to see something like this happen even with very old SS lines.
I know that going from old rubber lines to new stainless braid items, I had a huge difference in pedal feedback. I was able to control wheel lock ups under braking etc. But the rubber hoses were old and could have had a soft patch etc. This was on my 72 Holden HQ race car.
Other thing I like about stainless braided items are the versatility of them and the fact that they cab be made to almost any specification you need.
I have them so my angry ex-girlfriend can't cut them through
+Bart Van Riel Pretty amazing that a woman even knows where to locate brake lines on a car, to be honest
123 456 I was just joking haha
Son of a Zombie ??
steel lines al almost as easy to cut.
Bert R how can you even cut them?
The two main contributors to the overall elasticity of the brake system is the brake hose expanding, and the brake pad compound compressing (especially organic compounds). Upgrading either will make a difference, but the brake pads surely offers most performance/price.
My personal experience of changing lines is that the upgrade is most pronounced in non-assisted brake systems.
367k subscribers does not reflect how good this channel is. Bravo sir.
This video isn't where I started, I found myself just watching to watch. Great videos.
You failed to mention one of the key advantages of the S.S. lines. Which is when the rubber heats up during use it expands more than when it is cool and the S.S. line will not expand even when heated. This comes in handy when high heat(racing) applications are used.
you failed to mention one of the key advantages of rubber. which is when the rubber heats up during sex, it prevents more pregnancies than when you go native. This comes in handy when girlfriends are used.
LMAO
Darek M, nylon softens considerably when exposed to heat so, yes, it DOES expand.
Motorcycles suffer the most because--
Line length is much greater than the average car, greater fluid volume is displaced in hose flex rather than pad movement.
Fingers/hands are engaging the brakes which bring much more feedback to the brain.
Next to no one services brake hoses. Motorcycle hoses are exposed to sunlight and coupled with the length of the lines, things get worse sooner.
But rubber hoses are cheap to make and are a common place OEM motorcycle manufacturers love to skimp.
Just what I was going to say, if doing a track day, upgrade the brake lines, it makes a world of difference
The firmer feel is one that kind of came from bikes. Cars have steel brake lines. The only rubber is usuall just that short stretch around the spindle. Volume of expansion is minimal. However get into motorcycles without power assist brakes and it becomes easily noticable.
Just what I was saying in other comments.
Also fluid getting too hot leads to boiling and bubbles. Sure way of losing a significant amount of force and feel.
That and most people putting new lines on bikes are replacing 20 year old rubber lines.
@@zorgzev96I got a huge improvement on my bike at ~8 years 10,000km. Even had them custom-made because I couldn't find the exact setup I wanted. It's a very easy and affordable upgrade to do on a bike
Definitely one of my favorite mods I did on my STi. Night and day difference in pedal feel.
I put stainless brake lines on two Honda CBXs, and a Yamaha FJ1100. Brake lever and pedal feel was much improved. Then about 10 years ago, I put braided stainless brake lines on my then 40 year old 69 Corvette. The brake pedal was much firmer than it was with 40 year old rubber lines. Today, the 50 year old car still has excellent pedal feel. No power assist, just plain manual 4 wheel, 4 piston, disc brakes. Good video, Jason👍.
My Car is 13 years old and I finally replaced my OEM rubber hose and I definitely noticed a difference in brake pedal feel. I should also mention that I also at the same time replaced my Front rotors and pads.
Good explanation Jason! I do wish you could do it mythbuster style and actually measure how much the lines expand or not though.
+SlimmyJP That gave me an idea! :)
+Engineering Explained If you can find some 20+ year old brake lines to throw in the mix; my Z is getting on 25yrs old now so i got S/S lines; admittedly on the back of "old rubber lines will be soft" relatively speaking...looking forward to seeing if there's any noticeable difference
+Tatenda Jinya The lines on my Integra are from '99 (which these steel lines will eventually replace).
+SlimmyJP
That would make for a good episode.
From our experience, the amount of measured rubber brake hose diametrical expansion depends on a number of factors such as the age of the hose, the actual quality of the hose materials and construction, the ambient temperature and the fluid temperature, how many times and how often the hose has been operated/exposed to high temperatures and high fluid pressures and if the outer rubber jacket has been exposed to contaminates such as petroleum products, solvents, etc.
The more a rubber hose is operated or exposed to elevated temps and pressures the more likely it is to expand diametrically under pressure.
We have measured as little as 0.0015 inch (0.0381 mm) on a new high quality hose to more than 0.050 inch (1.270 mm) on a hose from a competition vehicle that was exposed to elevated temps and pressures over a partial season of competition.
+Engineering Explained ah well in that case, can't wait for that episode then!
You have saved me from spending some money on stainless steel brake lines.
Thank you.
Rubber is good for about 100k miles. And they are around $15 to replace. Stainless are lifetime, but ~$100. The firm feel is people putting new lines on. New rubber will feel just as stiff as steel lines for the first 50k-100k. If people want firm feel, they don't need to pay $$$ for stainless steel, new lines will feel great period. Racing or off-roading is where stainless steel has the advantage. It does not fatigue under heavy braking as with rubber. But for daily driving, a firm pedal will be felt with new rubber lines for the first 50k-100k
Good video BTW!
+Ungregistered User - Banks step back on loans for older vehicles solely do to potential value. Its extremely difficult to evaluate the object condition with that age. A simple coat of paint don't mean the vehicle is perfect, it can be a lemon or an exquisite piece. But banks can't evaluate that 100%. So the risk factor put them on a defensive position.
+John Faire - Spot on. ;-)
Oem lines are suppose to last longer than stainless lines
But a lot of the line will never be all stainless.
I also learned thru aircraft maintenance school that on planes when you take a Teflon-lined hose out you have to maintain its shape that it took when it was installed. If you flex the SS hose at all the Teflon lining could be compromised and the line has to be replaced. Obviously everything has to be more strict on aircraft, but something to consider I guess?
Do you think that makes sense on a car where the brake lines are actually connected to the caliper which is connected to the hub, which the wheel is connected AND THEY ALL MOVE UP AND DOWN, LEFT TO RIGHT CONSTANTLY! Lol... But fun fact, the lines can only go back in one way based on the fitting that connects to the caliper so one never has to worry about the orientation of the line itself when installing.
I may be wrong on this but the real advantage of the coating or sleeve over the SS braid is that dirt and particles can get trapped in the mesh of the SS and with enough movement cause abrasions. A sleeve would on the other hand prevent such particulate from getting in the braid.
With a channel called Engineering Explained, you didn't explain the engineering side of this. With the small volume of fluid that the brake system moves, the microscopic difference between nylon weave and stainless steel weave may be significant. Some actual measurement of the force req'd at the pedal vs at the caliper would provide quantifiable backup to your assertion that the change doesn't matter.
...thinking the same thing...
some modern motorcycles and cars have drive by wire throttles so the actions are quicker than pressing a pedal that then, in turn, takes up the slack/flex in a cable and activates the throttle, if pressing the brake pedal relies on the volumetric motion of fluid to displace a calliper piston why don`t somebody experiment on making a braking system by wire, I understand they would have to invent a particular failsafe system as backup but there must be a failsafe for the drive-by-wire system some cars have at the moment?
@@karlwalker1771 liquid isn't compressible so the only things causing the delay can be leaks and expansion of brake lines(not accounting for heat soak etc because those will happen no matter how you activate the brakes)
If they were made drive-by-wire they would have to be extremely safe before being used in a production vehicle
@@karlwalker1771 there are drive by wire brake systems, look at some of the new lexus (as a lexus tech) some are just the rear wheels but with the hybrids especially, they have all 4 drive by wire brakes. Their downside is that the pedal is not linear, it looks at how fast and how hard you depress the pedal so with the same travel at different speeds they will have different braking forces, which makes them very touchy in my opinion. But they do exist and they really lack pedal feel, especially in the early designs. Im sure other manufacturers have these fully electronic brake systems as well.
I've just ordered a set of braided hoses. This video confirms my suspicion that I won't notice much of a difference, if any, especially as the hoses are so short. However, they have actually worked out cheaper than if I'd bought new OEM rubber hoses, so I thought it would be worth trying them.
Whats your impressions? I bought a aftermarket rubber hose and my pedal feels spongy af now
@@henrique-3d To be honest, it's more than a year later and the car is still off the road. There was another bigger issue and life has got in the way since.
My Dual-Sport motorcycle has got about 4 ft of rubber line to the front brake caliper. It's amazing to watch it expand as the lever is pulled.
More importantly, the expansion actually helps prevent front lock-up on loose dirt as the caliper piston takes longer to respond to the lever pull, than if it had a steel braided line. However, on the street, a steel braided line would provide a much better brake response. Almost impossible to lock-up the front tire in a straight line.
I replaced the rubber lines on my 1977 kz1000 and the difference was amazing. The rubber ones were not very old but I needed shorter lines because I changed from a Old Style to a Drag Bar.
I'm not a car guy, but on my race/track bikes adding stainless/teflon brake lines is a MUST. Just for the 'feel' that they give you at the lever if nothing else.
I had a set of Teflon-core stainless steel braided lines with a plastic coating over the outside on my 370Z. The set I got was from StopTech, plus I had the system flushed out with some very high temp StopTech DOT 4 brake fluid. My brakes did not function badly before the change but I did notice that the brakes actuate with a little less pedal movement, although that may have been due in part to some air that might have been in my lines before. As part of a comprehensive brake upgrade process, I think it was a good thing to do. My next priority for the brakes is to reduce unsprung weight at the wheels by getting some two-piece aluminum hat rotors that would shave off about 10 lbs from each front wheel and 5 lbs from each rear wheel. Thanks for the interesting and informative videos, Jason.
Purchased one of ebay but could never get the brakes properly pressurized, seems they bulged. Lesson learned don't get the cheap ones.
Well, all I can say is that I replaced the rubber lines on my 12 year old Volvo with SS lines and the difference is noticeable. Firmer pedal feel, and a more direct pedal pressure/braking force ratio. I'm sure the science may say otherwise, and the explanation is valid and plausible, but I'm happy with the improved performance of my braking system now. Cheers.
I agree with you but the main advantage I went for with stainless steel brake lines is that they don't wear out as fast as rubber. Thousands of miles with rubber lines will stretch them out and make them less effective. Where as stainless wont have that problem.
Perhaps, but plenty of 20 year old cars out there are still running the original brake lines with no issues.
Driver preference and use I think are main factors. I off road and it does help out to be more resistant to tearing and abrasions.
I have a 93 Ranger with all the original lines, the brakes are extremely soft. That is after almost 300k miles, though... Lol
Try stainless steel lines as a replacement to +4-year-old rubber lines and you'll never get anything else for your bikes. No wonder all serious track bikes come with SSlines straight out of factory… ;-)
False. Stainless lines allow in contaminants that can break down the inner Teflon core. Not my opinion, this is per the Stoptech website FAQ. In addition, while stainless supposedly doesn't expand like rubber, SS lines also seem like fail without warning when they blow out at the crimp. That "soft pedal" feel you get from old rubber lines are just an indicator that the part is ready for replacement.
After years of doubting the effectiveness of SS lines, I decided to try them on my FRS. I was right, I felt no improvement in pedal feel. The pedal already had a decently firm feel with the rubber. No discernible difference with the braided lines. I'll have to try them out at the track when I go soon to see if high temperatures play any role.
You don’t notice anything because the FRS is a shitbox. But mainly, SS lines will prove their toughness in the long run, with a kind of ‘armored’ quality. One less weak link in the system so to speak.
Well, that sums it all up nicely. I've actually been thinking of converting my brake lines, so this video is perfectly timed. Thank you. Another winner from EE!
The only issue I might have with rubber brake lines is high temperature.
While track driving, the brake fluid can get really hot, and rubber hose could potentially become softer and expand. I wish there was more data on this, e.g. temperature properties of the rubber material used in brake lines.
Jason, could you perhaps add to this thought?
Steel braided lines are also great for motorcycles. As braking increases in downhill sections you can feel an appreciable fade in braking with rubber lines. Heat dispersion with steel lines is far superior.
JET FUEL CAN'T MELT STEEL BRAKE LINES
***** I think the joke went right over your head, and into the twin towers.
***** you still don't know what the joke was, and freedom tower was built on it
***** Good for you, it was a joke that you missed, get over yourself. I don't care about your relative, tbh.
i can't breathe
***** Have fun, your stupidity is astonishing.
Thanks for a clear video. I am looking to use stainless steel because I have an MOT (UK) report saying my brake hoses are beginning to corrode. So I want to avoid this corrosion, and they're hardly more expensive than rubber hoses.
stainless lines bulge a tiny bit too, ive seen it on the industrial level if the pressure is to high anything will flex
Excellent video that helps answer my question. Purchased a 'rubber hydraulic line', however I need the proper fittings to attach from the upper brake line, to the brake cylinder. I questioned if I was simply putting things in bad order, ... but I think I'll grab the fittings. I'm 69 years old, just put 1200.00 into my Pontiac Vibe 2 months ago (power steering lines plus) by my mechanic, trying to find a way to augment the present problem. SSI can be tough, funds aren't always available, so some of these things I have to attempt myself. Thanks for the video.
I discovered at ~ 7000 mi, that the rubber flexible brake lines on my former, '08 Maxima, were plumping like *all *ark franks, during a normal hard application onto the brake pedal. Unbelievable, but installing SS flexible brake lines, returned its excellent immediate braking response.
Having the steel braid coated in a protective plastic sheath not only protects the car from abrasive damage due to the line rubbing against it but also keeps dirt from coming through the strands of the metal weave and wearing the Teflon core. This extends the life of the brake line and reduces the chance of fluid loss should the core get worn away.
Aircraft tip: Braided (and other!) lines must be SECURELY CLAMPED using cushion clamps and LOCKING hardware so you CONTROL them. The braid makes a pretty good "saw" too so ensure lines are kept from chafing wire bundles in their range of flex. Clamp wire bundles too. Clamps are cheap.
Do not rely on the line material to resist chafing. Spiral wrap and other barrier methods protect against chafing when line excursion can't be ideally controlled by clamps.
I had a Hayabusa motorcycle, changed out my stock brake lines to steel braided lines. It was the single, most notable mod that I made to my bike. Better feel than the exhaust, computer etc. Best bang for the buck part to buy.
Replaced rubber brake lines on my Bmw motorcycle & you could stretch them by hand if you grab each end & pull. Try doing that with a braided line. If you brake hard you can feel the rubber swelling to the intial pressure before pads grip onto the discs. Competition bikes use braid.
I did install steel brake lines on my 4x4 under the impression of enhanced feedback, which there was little difference, however the do stand up to the elements better, as you stated, so not a total waste of money for my application (£30 for a set)
Good video Jason. You will notice a huge difference on motorcycles. I never had a car with SS lines since I am from Germany and SS lines on cars are prohibited.
I have 4 piston factory brembos up front. I just upgraded to goodridge stainless lines and power stop z23 carbon ceramic pads. Next is slotted/drilled rotors. In the end I’m looking to be around 450wheel hp when I’m done modifying the car!! It’s my first turbo car ever!!
this also may have some exaggerated feel difference on a car that is 7 or 10 years old. where just replacing the rubber lines with oe new ones would also provide a similar difference in feel.
Couldn't agree more. New rubber hoses + new fluid and a proper bleed will give a good pedal feel every time
I'm getting them to install on my WRX so when I hit that brake pedal I'll have that warm fuzzy feeling. 😃
Does it help against fading?
Brake line manufacturing comes with a LARGE amount of safety and testing. The interwoven nylon lines that our host mentioned aren't just placed in there, they're interwoven at very specific angles, depending on application, in order to give the highest tensile strength possible. They are then melded into the rubber during the vulcanization & curing processes. With the high nylon tensile strength, highly flexible rubber, and full failure testing approval throughout the manufacturing process, he is completely correct! Rubber brake lines are a perfect fit for most cars on the road. Excellent products. Metal woven lines are mainly for looks.
Steel lines are not mainly for looks, especially when they’re hardly ever seen. The reality is that they provide every practical quality as rubber lines, with the additional benefit of being very tough on the outside. It’s a small thing in most cases, but if you want the best of the best, it’s going to be a braided steel line.
The outer plastic cover over a braided line, is there is make sure winter salt spray (salt forms highly abrasive crystals) and other road dirt does not get past the braided jacket and cut the teflon tubing. Braided lines are meant for racers, who inpect everything frequently. Consumer brake systems are engineered to work properly with their rubber lines.
I used to road race with SCCA. Now, I've been doing track days or HPDE events for 10 years. I go fast and drive hard in a dedicated track car with a racing BBK. Once, I felt my brakes going so I came in right away. I found that a front, SS braided line had rubbed against the tire and developed a pinhole leak. With regular brake hose I think the event would have been a catastrophic rupture of the hose, more like a balloon popping and I would have suddenly had NO brakes!
I've never had any issues with my SS lines in those years. They are on all my sports cars.
Invest your money in sintered brake pads, new piston seals, frequent brake fluid maintenance and a vacuum brake bleeder kit.
for all the people debating on doing it or not and are here listening to the science behind it... just DO IT! i dont care WHY it feels better! it just does! i did it and no i didnt flush the system and yes i feel i have a much quicker solid pedal response with the same brake/rotor combo.. thanks for info as well 👍🏼
Stainless steel brake lines are a racing application for the most part. Great video on the topic, most guys who want better performance from their cars are fine with OEM parts, and indeed brake lines will make zero difference.
I've got a 2004 Toyota Tacoma TRD, a 2002 Ducati Monster 750, and a 1973 Honda CB500. I've upgraded parts on all three and it cost me significantly, but improved looks and performance in a lot of areas. One thing I have learned though is that manufacturer engineering is superior in almost every way, and upgrades can actually hurt performance often. That being said, manufacturers don't install rubber brake lines to cut corners, they do it because it was built to work under the environment and operation your car or bike was designed for sufficiently or better. Replacing OEM parts for something aftermarket with better looks and performance will often land your auto or bike in the shop regularly because parts may not be in perfect sync with the rest of the car or bike.OEM engineers designed everything for a certain reason, don't forget that.
Most people feel a difference with braided lines because when they do the lines they also change the fluid... what they're actually feeling the new clean fluid making the difference.
Can see many comments about rubber lines being stronger than they look. Yes, it's true that they have strong cores and don't expand anywhere near as much as you would think. The main reason I use SS lines is the durability. Not bothered about the look, although admittedly they look much better than the black manky rubber we are all used to! SS lines outlast standard rubbers many, many times over, and I have had a few MOT fails because of the rubber sheathing on standard lines having very minor tears in them. The weak point is at the neck, as soon as there is any signs of weakness there, it is an automatic fail.
I had soft rubber brake lines before on my 1981 chevy Camaro. I replaced the rear brake line when it failed with a hard rubber brake line like you mentioned. At the time of me selling it I was planning to replace the front brakes and front brake lines.Original on my 81 chevy were soft! This could've been doo to age.
The thing with the rubber expanding was slightly incorrect explained. It does start to expand when there is pressure on it, not only in width also in length. That is in relation to the pressure that you apply to it, stainless braided lines do not expand. So you can put more force to the brake pads and get an higher breaking power then using the rubber break lines. Also is the inner diameter of the steel break lines most of the times smaller and that gives you an slight shorter break pedal way because the piston of the break moves the same amount of fluid trough an smaller tube. The expansion in an rubber break line gets bigger when the breakfluid heats up because the rubber gets more elastic what does not happen with stainless tubes! So there can be a big difference!
Rubber brake lines can have an internal failure -- a swell. Happens when internal layer of rubber fails and the fluid makes it's way between layers, inflating the now thinner brake line instead of applying pressure onto the piston. Had this happen not long ago, actually.
The reason i swapped mine was track days. brake response was slow, also the brakes went soft after lap 3. I changed to high performance brake fluid first, result was better, but as soon as i change lines braking was totally changed. it was quicker and sure enough to allow my lap times to drop. I think the combination of braided lines and 5.1 fluid is enough to change the feel of the brakes, due to the improved performance and harder braking later i did upgrade the disks/calipers in the end as they were warping even with warm up and cooldown. However as per any track day use, you will start to upgrade everything on your car when you start to see parts lacking on your car, be that handling or engine.
Kinda of a miss on this one. What he should of said is when brand new there is very little difference between stainless and rubber brake lines. But as they age there is a much bigger difference and feel of the soft pedal feel of the rubber. Stainless is great but expensive and hard to work with. Just use NICOPP (nickel-copper) brake lines and be done with it. They’ll last longer than your car and they r much cheaper than stainless. To the wheel always replace old rubber flex brake line hoses with new or upgraded hoses. Stainless or Kevlar covered flex lines are the best but expensive.
Having used both and replaced one with the other I'd say the stainless lines do improve braking but at the expense of feel...the pedal becomes firm - as a block of wood!
They are better on motorbikes though.
Love your channel!
You get right to the point, are extremely concise, and give tons of information in an easy to understand easy to digest format.
From someone eager to learn about cars, thank you.
+Ned Brennan very happy to hear it, thanks for watching!
Can you make a video on how E-Breaks work? I'de love to a in depth explanation from you and if there are different types
I upgraded the stainless steel ones on my MK7 GTi. It’s a daily so so I figure why not plus I do drive spirited and it it’s Modified. I do plan to autocross. I did a brake flush with Motul and performance pads and slotted rotors all around.
How does the brake pedal feel with stainless steel lines?
Really cool video. I do use SS brake hose on all of my performance projects. I think if you upgrade any part of the vehicle, you must upgrade the other systems in the vehicle. I have experienced a few rubber brake hose failures... not a good feeling. Possibly due to heat and age.
Always have an answer for what I"m looking for.
There is an additional reason to use stainless lines. If you are frequently changing wheels, for instance between 'road' and 'track' tires; of if you often reconfigure suspension components, such sway bar settings, and types of end links; or if you frequently change wheel alignments to non-stock settings, it is remarkably easy for contact between the brake line and a moving component to occur. If you have stainless jacketed lines the brake line will be protected. Rubber jacketed lines are much more vulnerable to abrasion. I agree that any change in brake feel between rubber and stainless jacketed line is so small or subtle that most people will not notice the difference.
I really enjoyed this video, thought you had a very visual way of describing the differences that was easy to follow.
My boss loves to drag race and I've come to dislike stainless steel hoses. We've had some start spraying fuel out through all the braid, so we replaced them with some we had off the shelf and they did the same thing. We had to buy another roll of the stainless steel hoses and make all new lines. I later Googled it and found sites saying the braid can chafe the inner hose while vibrating and that it's really recommended to change them out every few years, some brands saying 10 years. The more I work on race cars, the less I like them.
On bikes, SS ok especially make a huge difference. OEM pads, calipers and MC, but the SS lines reduced my stopping distance and increased my lever "feel/feedback."
Very good info here. I have a 2006 Suzuki Aerio AWD sedan with ~150K miles. Both my wife and I baby it and drive it carefully like we want it to live forever. I am calling a brake shop tomorrow to schedule an appointment. As far as I know, the brake lines have never been changed on that car. It depends on the cost but do you all recommend I ask the brakes shop to change them? The pedal has always felt kind of soft to me, even after the brake work I have had done on it. I also don't think anyone has ever turned the rotors on it, either.
What about turning the rotors? Would that make a difference in the pedal feel? What pads do you recommend for improved pedal feel?
The rubber lines may expand only a little at any portion of their cross section, but they are expanding along their entire length, and there are 4 of them. Even worse, their expansion properties may change as they heat up from rising ambient temperatures, and rising fluid temperatures. The idea behind stainless lines, among people who use them for their intended purpose anyway (ON TRACK), is that they make brake pedal performance more consistent. Consistency is pretty important when you're braking at the last possible second, where any delay or unnecessary modulation will, at best, take you off your racing line, and at worst take you off the paved surface of the road.
Another well done Video.. explaining how aftermarket upgrades are really down grades!
Sure stainless steel lines are more expensive but you get what you pay for and if braking response / feedback is what you want then yes replacing rubber lines will certainly make a difference.
The brake line expansion comes from heat from repeated use its called brake fade braided lines help reduce brake fade
Love your channel man! You should do a series where you debunk common myths. That would be awesome!
Just a thought. How about including comment on brake lines used in performance driving environment. Brake fluid temps get extremely high.
What about for cold weather driving in the north
1. the cold wether does that affect anything
and
2. is stainless steel more suitable because of the chemicals and salt they use for iced over roads
thanks!
Hose expansion becomes a greater problem when the hose length is much longer, i.e. motorcycle brake hoses. Also age has a greater decaying effect on rubber lines. Most people do not service these hoses and the reduction in performance over time goes ignored because it's very gradual.
Can you make a video explaining how Robbie Maddison's dirt bike can glide over water with the ski that are built around the bike? Also I love your videos!
Thanks for summing up the differences/tech info, i was thinking of upgrading my 64' Dodge to steel braided lines.
To each his/her own. Everyone has a different style of driving and external variables that influence their drive. For me, I'll take the steel lines. Yes, they're more expensive, about $100 more, but for peace of mind and the cool factor, I'll take it. I think some people are misquoting prices though, or maybe they're not being clear as to what the $15 covers... From what I've found, the cheapest rubber set (4), will run about $52 while the cheapest steel set (4), will run about $154. This is using my car as the guinea pig.
I also buy aftermarket rotors and pads; Stop Tech, Hawk and sometimes from a local shop that caters to the make/ model of my car. I spend about $110 per wheel for brakes, about every two years. This includes the steel lines but not tax or shipping. Not too bad.
It's a different animal- motorcycles, but on bikes the stock rubber ones work well for say, 4 years, after that, you get less braking power and spongy feel. Braided stainless steel ones, however, give you better braking power and last a lot longer.
when it comes to threshold braking, pedal feel is everything (without abs)so braided are a big advantage
Usually brake lines go a little before they go a lot you know?
First they get weak and the driver should notice, THEN they fail totally, at least in all of my experience with brakes.
Burst pressure to me was always a value I would never be able to reach with my foot, even a on a boosted system.
Takes multiple components in the entire system to add up to dramatic differences. But the differences are definitely there when changing single things.
I'll tell you my experience. I have a 2000 legacy with 306,000 miles and a 1995 Accord with 263,000 miles and both have their original rubber brake lines. And I live in the rust belt. Every time I see a show change brand new rubber lines for stainless steel because "rubber could fail easily" I chuckle. From what I can tell the rubber ones last almost forever. I've seen rubber lines crack, but none of mine are cracked and they give you plenty of notice, you'll see and feel cracks long before they fail. The only reason I'd replace with stainless steel is if a rubber line was bad or maybe on the racetrack because of the less flex BS which I bet you can't even feel the difference.
I might be wrong here, and if I am, please explain how I am wrong when I say this...
Would the pressure move the caliper piston FIRST until a certain pressure is reached, THEN start to expand the rubber hose until a certain level is reached before putting more pressure on the caliper piston?
I think your right, I would imagine the expansion is proportional to the pressure. There may still be a little expansion followed by greater expansion once the pad bites.
The more of your videos I watch the main thing I'm getting is "almost every modification is no good for your car"
Steel braided brake lines also reflect radiant heat and most are covered with a rubber of sort to prevent corrosion as an oem rubber line does well.
I personally change flexible brake lines around every 100k miles or if the brakes have overheated more times then not to prevent failure.
I have braided lines on my bike, it came with them stock, They really are amazing, the brakes on my old bike feel so mushy now
Got Stainless Steel lines put on my dad's plow truck - hopefully they'll last forever - only reason why we got them.
I wouldnt call it exaggerated, not THAT exaggerated at least. I have done steel braided lines on two cars that did have firm pedals from factory and i experienced a nice improvement on both. Even firmer feel and it gives more confidence in the brakes when driving "vigorously" in my opinion.
Steel lines provide considerably better brake-feel on motorcycles. I'm not sure exactly why they might feel so much better, but it's a night and day difference between rubber and steel lines, especially on the front brakes. Other than this caveat, I completely agree with their limited benefits for other vehicles.
i agree -i was thinking it might be because the rubber section on motorcycles is longer and the fact all the braking is thru one wheel really...but i wish i could get the same difference in brake lever/pedal feel to transfer to my f350 by the same margin
Marc D you can get that big of a difference on your truck throw a set of Brembo 6-piston calipers and oversized rotors on it
+Engineering Explained for what it's worth, i'm pretty sure the protecting coating over the braid is to stop foreign material from getting lodged in the weave and causing line damage. from what i recall you can find non DOT lines without the coating but all DOT lines have it.
from experience, you can hold a new rubber brake line during application and feel the expansion with your fingers. not so much with braided.
This Guy is science. Your content is awesome as usual.
you probably just saved me a good amount of money. thanks