ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- The experience of playing Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam isn't your average, everyday boredom. It's... advanced boredom.
You can read the original essay here: docs.google.com/document/d/1H...
Chapters:
00:00 - It Was a Dark and Stormy Mid-Afternoon
04:55 - Destination: Dull
22:55 - Luigi Bad
36:35 - The Quality of Boredom
Credits:
All footage not credited captured by myself.
Iwata Asks -- Mario and Lugi: Dream Team: iwataasks.nintendo.com/interv...
Super Mario Wiki -- Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam: www.mariowiki.com/Mario_%26_L...
Gameinformer -- "Nintendo and AlphaDream Talk Mario, RPGs, And More": www.gameinformer.com/b/featur...
The Verge -- "How Super Mario became an unlikely RPG star" www.theverge.com/2016/2/12/10...
Nintendo -- Paper Jam Miiting: play.nintendo.com/news-tips/n...
Sticker Star Footage from @packattack04082: • Paper Mario Sticker St...
Sticker Star Bowling footage from @ZackScottGames: • Paper Mario Sticker St...
The Origami King footage from @Ninbanyan: • Paper Mario: The Origa...
Dream Team Footage from Ninbanyan: • Mario & Luigi Dream Te...
Partners in Time Footage from Ninbanyan: • Mario & Luigi Partners...
Bowser's Inside Story Footage from Marlon Boer: • Alternate Ending - Mar...
New Super Mario Bros. U Footage from Nintendo Central: • New Super Mario Bros. ...
Paper Jam OST from Cha Chingo Christiano: • Start of the Adventure...
Sticker Star OST from Vivi's Radio Backup Channel ~ Rare VGM: • Woods of Poison - Pape...
P.S. That timing on Mario & Luigi: Brothership, huh?
#marioandluigi #marioandluigipaperjam #retrospective #videoessay - เกม
tl;dw: Brothership was a very refreshing thing to see after spending three weeks with Paper Jam
what if instead of youtube it was called 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴tube and instead of watching videos 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖛𝖎𝖉𝖊𝖔𝖘 𝖙𝖔𝖚𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖉 𝖕𝖕
How tf do they go from Paper Jam, the most uninspired Mario and Luigi game, to Brothership?lol
@@nickk3077 I don't know, but I am definitely not complaining
@@nickk3077 Different devs
@@nickk3077there was a 9 year gap so they probably had time to go “this is terrible, let’s fix this.”
luigi is the indomitable human spirit against the indifferent cruelty of paper jam
You are so right wayne hylics
Man. Luigi being hated by the game because he is sincere and it is not. That goes hard.
like, what is this? Everybody hates Chris, but Luigi?
I don't know why Mario RPG fans perceive anything slightly negative nintendo does as a personal attack
@@LackofGimmicks You haven't met the Final Fantasy "fan"dom yet, for these guys _everything_ is a personal attack...
@@LackofGimmicks all the games in the serie make jokes about Luigi, but he always was respected despite being in Mario's shadow. In this game the jokes feel even out of character in some cases
@@LackofGimmicks No one is taking it as a personal attack. It's just incredibly grating when a story's writing goes "Ha ha, look at how BAD this character is!" 30 times over, especially when that character has proven himself to be competent on multiple games.
The Luigi mocking is so odd to me considering that it takes place _after_ Dream Team…y’know, the game where Luigi becomes a vital factor in saving an entire kingdom through his dreams alone. They seriously need to cut him some slack!
Even Bowser got some respect for him and called him by his name at the end of DT.
Bro, that happen also Wait superstar saga in that game Mario legit gains the power of gods😂
@@King_LuigiBro, that happen also Wait superstar saga in that game Mario legit gains the power of gods😂
Paper jam seems to me like a game that ran out of resources to make. I think that this game was already a warning sign in retrospect that alphadream was financially in trouble.
They ran out of paper
@@FindingsOfAnArmouredMindand jam
@@Joosher56 And dreams
@@hypernova_119 Even teams.
@@mayborneflowerAnd partners
This game was not a crossover between Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario.
It was a crossover between Mario & Luigi and *Sticker Star.*
Sticker Star was good though
@@skywardarceus I totally respect your opinion, but not many people share that opinion. I'll share mine. Sticker Star is middling at best when viewed in a bubble, and is the worst of the series when you view it after the joyous fun of the original, the peak gameplay of TTYD, and the heartwarming/wrenching story of Super Paper Mario. Sticker Star does not have the story, does not have the gameplay, and does not have the fun.
I only enjoyed Sticker Star because it was my FIRST Paper Mario game and all the others I played in the series made me enjoy the best ones even more.
@@DoctorTex That's probably the nicest way to say that OP is objectively wrong. But I don't disagree with your notion. Sticker Star did absolutely nothing to reinvigorate the series. And unfortunately influenced the next 2 Paper Mario games after.
No this game was a crossover between the New Super Mario Bros games and Sticker Star
incredible how BiS made starlow more sincere and redeemable in a single scene (the shroob refight in bowser's vault) than the entirety of paper jam altogether
paper peach being mean toward paper luigi doesnt even make any sense
i usually like paper luigi more because of this aspect, he is a completely different character especially in supet
he is more anxious that coward, and he has trust problem, and can be manipulated easily through a simple self esteem boost
but he is more capable than ever before, i really dont understand how can you belittle such character
You know there's a problem when Sticker Star is brought up as an example of better storytelling.
Sticker Star's story was not better than Paper Jam's, that's extremely ridiculous
@@chrange9714 The point is that both Sticker Star and Paper Jam have very uninteresting stories, but Sticker Star still does better environmental storytelling than Paper Jam.
@@rockoman100 One, neither games have uninteresting stories. They're simple yes but so is 90% of Mario games including the M&L ones. Simple doesn't equal bad. Two, Sticker Star definitely doesn't do environmental storytelling better than Paper Jam does
@@chrange9714Watch the video agains. You’re annoying and ignore willingfully things
@@chrange9714yeah, obviously simple ≠ bad, but that's not what anyone is saying.
Paper mario on the N64 had a pretty simple plot, but it had more substance to it. Bowser didn't just appear once in the intro, get peach with precisely 0 lines of dialogue from anybody, and then at the ending as the final boss, every chapter had its own little story to it and there were characters you interacted with, which made the world feel alive, and in between every chapter there were intervals where you played as peach and went around the castle while trying not to get caught.
The general plot is still simple, but there's more to it, while in Sticker Star and Paper Jam there's nothing (tho I still feel like the problem is mostly worse with SS)
"Sticker Star did it better" wasn't an argument I expected to hear, but here we are. Great video.
Brothership already looks like it avoids almost all the issues in Paper Jam and we have exactly 1 trailer. God I'm so happy this New Soup style/Mario Mandates thing is dead.
i thought the same with totk and was mistaken
@@minnow1337 Tears of the Kingdom?
@@minnow1337 I'm so pissed they replaced all the enemies in tears of the kingdom with toads
what if instead of youtube it was called 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴tube and instead of watching videos 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖛𝖎𝖉𝖊𝖔𝖘 𝖙𝖔𝖚𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖉 𝖕𝖕
@@Rediscool9 The trailer introduced a lot of gameplay elements that seemed to address my biggest critiques of botw, but they hardly made any substantial use of the mechanics they introduced
This game could've looked so different if it was made with the previous M&L games and Super Paper Mario or Thousand-Year Door in mind. I wonder if we'll get a real crossover in the future now that both series are supposedly back on track.
Apparently they didn't have the budget to for a large scale game because they were already struggling after dream team didn't meet expected sales
Only time will take but not anytime soon, that's for sure!
This may seem like a long shot, but would it be possible to one day see a Partners in Time re-release, a post-Mario Mandate Paper Jam remake, etc.?
@@steam-powereddolphin5449. Possible? Maybe. Likely? Absolutely not.
Paper Mario and Luigi?
It almost sounds like you're saying Paper Jam is so bad it makes Sticker Star look good
Ayeee superwiibros whatcha doin here bud? I just got done watching a Joel video you edited before I watched this video 😂
I mean, that's not *not* what I'm saying....
I wouldn't ever say that. that's borderline a slur. at least Paper Jam has playable gameplay a non-alien can enjoy, if nothing else.
Let's not say things we can't take back.
He had ALMOST convinced me, but I thought about jt again for 2 seconds and just realized it's only Near the same level of SS.
14:04 Paper!Kamek spawning a bunch of giant cardboard “PlayStation glyphs” is actually a pretty freaking cool way to use the motifs of _Paper Mario_ and Magikoopas for a mere minor roadblock
8:23 Funnily enough, in the japanese version as well as some other translations of Paper Jam, they at least attempted to give the areas SOME general theming by giving them all names that all references the Paper-Doppelganger plot of Paper Jam.
For example, Mt. Brrr is called "Mirror Image Mountain" in the german version and Sunbeam Plains is called "Pair Plains" in the japanese and portuguese version.
So yeah, no idea what happend with the english version. Either they didn't give a fuck about the theming or they knew that give the areas themed names would save them from being generic as fuck.
I think it just gripes me because Paper Jam came off of a series that propped Luigi up as being able to stand up as a Hero in his own right. He saved Mario from being poisoned, helped the baby bros when mario went missing for abit, was the one to lead the charge into battle against a Bowser who had the powers of a whole universe and dreams. Hell Luigi is hailed a Hero in the Bean Bean kingdom and called by his name by the officials and locals well before Bowser does and the Mushroom Kingdom inhabitants do as well
35:21 I just find it really funny that this somber moment is screwed over with one of the Bowser Jrs. having brainrot. The Game Peaks here.
do you think bowser jr watches skibidi toilet and lankybox
@@uruhaiP I guess both
@@uruhaiPThat is canon beyond canon
Im so glad someone finally put into words why this game is just so draining. Got some dream team appreciation in here as well. Thank you.
There will always be some room for Dream Team appreciation on this channel
As one of the few Sticker Star fans, appreciation of any kind for that game was also very refreshing
@@kwisowofer9872The doctors have issued an order for you to be studied
they drained your bank account when you decided to buy it
The two Peaches complaining about how boring and routine their lives are is so awkward
In the first M&L game, she ruins Cackletta’s plan by being 2 steps ahead. Then when she’s kidnapped, she swaps places with Luigi in drag. The very first game in the series knew the “peach gets kidnapped” trope was boring, so it subverted it. Twice.
And often when she is kidnapped in the RPGs, it’s because she was doing something heroic like in PiT, or she spends her time sneaking around the villains’ backs to get intel to Mario. Or she’s just straight-up playable and never gets kidnapped
Obv not every Mario RPG has done something new with her, but it’s wild to play the trope straighter then any other game in the series, then be like “hey guys isn’t this trope boring?”
That's really the killer. The problem isn't so much that it's a "Bowser-kidnaps-Peach" plot, because if that were the issue, everyone would be getting on Paper Mario 64's case. But the original Paper Mario actually executes the plot earnestly, and does it really well with loads of personality and memorable moments, and that's why everyone loves it. Paper Jam just admits that its tired and cliché and then... half-assess it with a bunch of dropped storylines. That's not really a respectable decision at all.
I don't like how this game sees the Paper Mario franchise as this "lesser" sort of game series because the entire world is made of paper. Sure, Sticker Star started that notion, but Paper Jam basically solidified it, which is highly insulting to everyone who was inspired by or invested in the first 3 Paper Mario games in capacity. I don't even think the devs of the modern 3 Paper Mario games believe that the world they crafted has any lesser value even though it is all paper, especially when you see some of the work they did in Origami King (and Color Splash). How have these series which at one point seemed to have mutual respect for one another by referencing a few elements from each other turn out so one-sided? This has to be hands down one of the worst crossovers in history because not only does it underutilize what its "referencing", but also doesn't seem to respect it.
Now that you mention it, the amount of dread and hate of the type of “self-aware humor” that’s constantly done in this game and many other video games or movies in general, makes me feel like the game is telling me, “caring about characters and story makes you a fool”.
I hope that Brothership is going to have more emotional and triumphant moments that not a joke.
Yep, Paper Jam feels very much infected by the "post-irony meta humor" trend that seemed very prevalent in the mid to late 2010s.
@@AurumAlex64 Indeed. Maybe that’s why I like a lot of Nintendo games in general. They are sincere in the ways that no matter how absurd or silly something looks, a lot of Nintendo games do make an effort to show moments that are importantly and impactful.
Also you earned yourself a sub! :3
Mario & Luigi Paper Jam and Sonic Colors shake hands at having stories that give players a reason not to play, rather than a reason for the player to care about the gameplay.
Paper Jam was released at a time where it felt like it was, well, cringe to actually feel genuine emotions
Everything must be ironic, everything must be said with a glance aside to the camera and a quip and an "erm"
I feel like in recent years people are realizing just how sick and tired they are of stories and writing like that
And that any writing that still carries these traits let's say, is rightfully mocked
Not to say it can't still be done or anything, but it's definitely been OVER-done by this point
I think it's mostly in the delivery. Thousand Year Door and Superstar Saga both had jokes about how often Peach gets kidnapped, but they didn't look at the camera and go "I guess it's THAT point in the story!"
The funniest thing about paper jam is that it’s named after a thing that’s annoying and wastes your time. Kinda fitting honestly.
Edit: Okay never mind he made the joke I’m the video, oops.
Bro, he... he made that joke in the video
@@lrgogo1517 and i made the joke before I saw that part
It's stinky garbage time!
It's stinky garbage time!
Truly peak writing
Would have been better if it was Waluigi Time.
@@seasonembrace3624 It's WALUIGI time! It's WALUIGI time!
I really, REALLY hope that Mario and Luigi: Brothership ditches the “Luigi abuse” trope. The game is all about working together, and Starlow doesn’t seem to be making an appearance, so no more roasts from her…
And, I have confidence that the humor and writing is going to harken back to the style from the first four games (Superstar Saga, Partners in Time, Bowser’s Inside Story, Dream Team). That would be a treat.
From the trailer alone, Luigi’s still going to be the less competent brother with mild bits of “Luigi abuse”. He faceplants from the cannon launch while Mario tucks and rolls.
Luigi does seem to have those “L ideas” where he’s used to solve puzzles. Probably like the Dream Team Luiginary/dream world sections?
@@ddchrw Well part of Luigi's characterization has always been that he's scatterbrained and clumsy which is perfectly fine to rib on. The issue is when he's mocked CONSTENTLY by the world around him.
@@ScorbunGame Yeah, and it’s up to interpretation in stuff like the bees chasing him off the cliff is the world mocking him or not.
To be clear, I don't think it's a problem for the games to do a little teasing of Luigi. He's a goofy character, and that's fine. The problem with Paper Jam is that it is incessant and cruel. The jokes aren't Luigi being a goofball, they're jokes about how everyone is right to think Luigi is incompetent, something the game really never pushes back on. There's never a significant moment where Luigi gets to shine.
When making fun of someone, there's a realm of good taste that I think Paper Jam evidently crosses.
Luigi being the butt of the joke is something I don't think the M&L games are ever going to abandon, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Paper Jam just takes it way too far and makes it the ONLY thing Luigi is known for. I will never forgive Paper Jam doing him so dirty after having his best moment as a character EVER than when he stared down a giant Bowser with Mario, swallowed his fear and just... smugly smiled. God I had the biggest grin myself.
But that also doesn't mean Luigi should be free of deprication. Because it is funny in bursts, AND makes moments like in Dream Team all the more satisfying.
23:56 Wow, I never knew this game was so mean to Luigi, it sounds like this was written by people who make those Mario fan animations where either everyone hates Luigi, Mario and luigi hate each other or luigi hates Mario for getting all the fame.
Luigi isn't a helpless, bumbling narc that Mario has to put up with, he genuinely pitches in and helps save the day, the Paper Mario series never did him like this.
I played the first hour of paper jam and had to put it down.
If the other games were like a hearty meal, this is one was like eating a literal sheet of paper. Sure you could do it, but why would you?
On an unrelated note, isn’t it weird that Wario has never appeared in a Mario RPG in any way shape or form?
He was gonna make a cameo in Superstar Saga, but it was cut. Do you count the W badge in TTYD?
@@mariobroultimate1808 no, an outfit with Wario’s colors is not Wario
@@gooeydude574 It's still a reference to him.
@@mariobroultimate1808 Reference is nice and all, but him actually being there makes an impact on the game.
Bwario and bwaluigi
Your intro hit my heavily. I literally had the thought “wouldn’t it be more fun to replay dream team” while slogging through paper jam just last night.
I wonder if the writing team was just burnt out after Dream Team. I heard that Dream Team was a doozy to develop for and cost a lot of money for the company.
That's one of the impressions I got as well, but it also seems like they had a more ambitious plan for this game originally, which wasn't able to be implemented (for some reason we can only guess about).
@@AurumAlex64 From what I've heard, they thought that only crossing over the mainline elements of the Mario series would be less overwhelming, or something like that. So we get Goomba's and Paper Goomba's, but no Fawful and Grotus. I don't remember where I heard this but I know it was a few years ago now.
You know, the way AA talks about Paper Jam here and the way Chugga talked about Sticker Star on his channel, it made me realize: what if someone modded Paper Jam to be more like Sticker Star? It would keep the RPG elements that people want with the crazy elements that SS was going for
They could have called Bowser's new castle "Papercraft Bowser Castle" it was RIGHT there!
So glad paper Luigi did not have to endure this game
I feel like this game should have Paper Luigi be Mr. L the entire time as a recurring boss. It would go well against the constant Luigi bashing the game does.
While it would be cool to have Mr. L back, the problem is the context behind it, as Luigi (in Super Paper Mario) was mind-controlled to be Mr. L and a robotic god. Although it would be cool if Luigi and his paper counterpart were to team up and become evil out of revenge for being mistreated, it would go against their character.
@@NathanAnd03 Honestly Paper Jam could have been the one moment in time where I would be fine with ignoring the canon timeline, just so we could see characters like Fawful and Dimentio interact, even though they’ve both long since died in their respective canons.
@@MySnugglePuppy
The paper characters are coming from a book anyway, right? It’s not like the Dimentio pages would have all been destroyed, so we only need any contrivance for the M&L Characters. (And now you have Dimentio, so you can probably make it happen…)
Sticker Star is absolutely the worst of the two games in my eyes and it isn't even close, but you make a good point in that it at least has a lot more 'going on' than Paper Jam. Paper Jam is actually a pretty fun game with funny writing, it's just presented in the most boring setting and alongside the most uninteresting story they could possibly create. Sticker Star's gameplay is genuinely painful, and is only slightly redeemed with a strong presentation and a few memorable moments. I don't remember any event that took place in Paper Jam.
Personally I consider Sticker Star the more boring of the two because at least Paper Jam's combat is very solid, some argue it may be the best in the series, so Paper Jam does legit have something to go back to, as opposed to Sticker Star where the few things mentioned it has going for, they're ultimately not there the whole game, some are just lil sparks at best, and most of it isn't as interesting or exciting when actually playing them
the part where you asked if boring was worse than bad reminded me of that experiment where people were put in an empty room with nothing except a button that shocks them and people pressed the button cause pain was better than boredom
Imagine if this game actually combined the original Paper Mario's mushroom kingdom with M&L's. There was so much damn potential in this crossover, imagine the original partners helping out in battle. We could've had Merlon, Kammy Koopa, the star spirits, literally anyone. Who was supposed to be hyped for this game if they threw away like 90% of both series' source material?
Honestly if Paper Luigi did made it in Paper Jam instead of getting scrapped
I feel like it would completely change the whole picking on Luigi thing less mean-spirited since there are 2 Bros each and Luigi wouldn't be left out and since Paper Luigi can talk it would change everything
Man, I remember playing Paper Jam and thinking it was pretty fun...then I remembered that there was nothing to look back to. We thought Sticker Star was bad? At least it TRIED in some cases. Tried and failed, yes, but still tried nonetheless. Even if Sticker Star has tons of flaws, it still felt more like an interesting adventure than...whatever nonsense this was. I think Ben Yahtzee Croshaw of Zero Punctuation/Fully Ramblomatic put it best in one of his videos:
"Regular ZP viewers will know that many years back, I began supplementing my annual top 5 and bottom 5 with the blandest 5 games, as well. I started doing this because being bland is not quite the same thing as being bad, in my estimation. Bland is worse than bad. A lot worse. Sometimes, people ask me if I prefer to review good games or bad games, and frequently I reply that they’re about equally as fun. It’s the bland games, the mediocre ones, that feel like a chore. The only reason we play games (or experience any kind of art) is to make ourselves feel something, and even contempt and disgust are feelings. That being the case, the very worst thing a game can do is not provoke much feeling at all."
I was thinking of this exact quote when I wrote the last part of the video. It's a really great summation.
@@AurumAlex64 Haha, it really is. Glad we shared the same braincell for a minute. :P
I do wanna say that Paper Jam did try to have a location name theme in Japanese (said being mirror images and duplicates) but it was unfortunately lost in translation.
The way I see how you've framed this, Paper Jam is essentially everything Sticker Star got wrong, multiplied tenfold and pasted onto Mario and Luigi for a chronically uninteresting experience that just leaves a bitter nothing taste in one's mouth.
It really isn't, Sticker Star has has the worst plot and you know what Paper Jam didn't get wrong that Sticker Star got wrong arguably the most? The gameplay and exploration and puzzles and stuff, seriously look at Chuggaconroy's review the game feels like they were trying to make a game as tedious and boring and unfun as possible.
One thing the game got over Sticker Star is the battle system, which is what salvages the game, though barely because everything else is lackluster as heck, makes for a mediocre adventure before the fights
Huh, you're right. The only one that got really got properly localized to English was Twinsy Tropics. And I'm guessing Doop Doop Dunes was meant to be "Dupe Dupe Dunes", but a misunderstanding made it that nonsense word instead. (I doubt it was meant to be an intentional reference to Doopliss)
This game is always weirdly overlooked imo, such a strange little blip in the mario universe. This was a fantastic breakdown about what makes it not work.
I personally have a soft spot for this game but i think you're spot on with why the game is generally bland and uninteresting.
A crossover between M&L and Paper Mario should have been a dream come true, but sadly it turned out to be the most boring game in both franchises. At least Sticker Star was more of a spectacular failure than a bland forgettable mess.
It failed as a story and as a crossover, still though as a actual game it at least succeeds there for the most part while that is one of Sticker Star's biggest failings.
The Luigi shade was NOT fucking necessary.
TRUEEEEEE. This game is the reason i hate starlow.
This game made me realise that Starlow is the most pointless character in these games now.
In BIS, she had an actual reason to be there, but in everything after that, she has legitimately no reason to be there. Why is she coming along in DT? I don’t know and don’t care, but in gameplay she needs to be there to affect Luigi in the real world when you’re in the dream world, so there’s kind of a reason for her to be in this game.
In this game, however, she has NO purpose throughout the entire game. She isn’t helpful, does nothing that would make her vaguely important, and the Luigi bashing, which, alongside her general personality, actively makes her unlikeable.
You would’ve been better not having her here at all or just having a different partner to adventure with the bros. There is no reason for her to be here, or for her to stay a part of the franchise. Thank god she isn’t in Brothership.
You know why she's there: Because otherwise you wouldn't even be able to tell it's a Mario and Luigi game. Everything else is so bland and infuriatingly boring you're only able to tell it's a Mario and Luigi game through it's bones, which just makes it even more infuriating.
I think she was in Paper Jam, as they were only allowed her as a helper character. Original characters were restricted with this game, so they were only allowed starlow
@@deedan06_why restrict original characters then
@@dragonbornexpress5650true but you could’ve included characters from previous games if you’re not gonna include her
@@sophiebubbles07. The true reason is unknown, but probably has to do with marketing and, bigger than that, merchandising. If all of your games follow a similar aesthetic and design philosophy, it makes marketing piss easy and helps sell merchandise even more. Of course, in this case, it only resulted in most of the casual market not seeing a reason to buy some of these games over others and, therefore, losing sales. (Especially for the Wii U titles like Color Splash. That game sold like 800,000 units, which is a disaster for a Mario game, and part of the reason that failed to sell is because the casual market jumped ship after how bad Sticker Star was.)
I really disagree with your assertation that the Nabbit chase in Neo Bowser Castle is an unwarranted roadblock, I'm pretty sure that it is optional but also I found it to be one of the few storytelling moments in the game that actually had soul. Him intermittently joining forces with Mario and Luigi to do his baddie bros shell attack against Bowser's enemies, and eventually transitioning from fleeing from the bros to playing with them was really cute and honestly felt like one of the best executed examples of wordless storytelling in a Mario game. I also really liked the personality that some of the Koopalings (especially Roy and Wendy) showed in their battles, exhibiting a sibling rivalry that I haven't seen in any of their other appearances.
You are right one-million percent though about essentially everything else in the game being dreadfully boring. The sterility of the Mushroom Kingdom in this game is distractingly apparent. Calling the game self-deprecating is a very good way of describing it. That scene you showed on screen where the green toad is being held by the Paper Petey Piranha, and you are meant to skip his dialogue with R because he is comically long winded, left me jaw dropped at the nerve the game has to try and make that joke when it so frequently makes the player waste time getting around arbitrary road blocks and collecting paper toads, in addition to other NPCs that are similarly long winded but in an unironic way.
I do also think that the game deserves some more respect for its combat though. Deckbuilding in a Mario RPG feels like a creative yet logical advancement on the badge systems in Dream Team and TTYD and it made the combat so much more enjoyable and raised the skill ceiling. I also really think that the enemy attack patterns are the best they have ever been in this series. I was grossly underleveled in this game, but the combats were still extremely engaging, which is not something I can say about Partners in Time or Superstar Saga. Those games feature boss fights that, if you went in underleveled, were very dull in their second half since the attack patterns--once you learn them--are so easy to dodge successfully that your eventual victory is already all but guaranteed, and you just have to keep throwing out the same special attacks to chip their HP down to 0. Paper Jam avoids this trap with increased character customization options, more interesting attack patterns, and the addition of Paper Mario--who fundamentally changes the way that you can dodge attacks. In all of the other games you can press A + B simultaneously to dodge basically any attack with very little thought and without being punished, but Paper Mario doesn't allow that since it is impractical to press A + B + Y simultaneously during each enemy attack, which forces you to be more engaged with each battle.
I personally really value the battle systems in these games, so the excellent system and its application present in Paper Jam easily gets it to clear Dream Team in my eyes. If you value the story and worldbuilding elements more though I can totally see why you would prefer that game over this one. Great video btw! Everything is laid out and explained really well, I even brought it off my second monitor and onto my main one midway through the video because you did such a good job keeping the topic interesting.
Thanks! I will absolutely admit I have a bias in favor of story and worldbuilding over gameplay. If you give me a fun story, I'll be more than willing to slog through some uncompelling gameplay. I think my issue with the Nabbit chase is that it feels way too long. In my recording, it lasts about 27 minutes, which really feels unnecessary for what is an already overstuffed final area. But I do like the little details you pointed out, and agree with the Koopalings as well. I love the Ludwig/Larry fights.
Edit: Oh, also, I forgot, they do the hold down R joke multiple times in the game; when the Toad in Peach's Castle talks about finding out the Peaches are in Mt. Brrr, he starts off: "Please listen carefully. None of this fast-forwarding business, OK?"
any other appearance ? try bower minions and bowser jr journey
@@AurumAlex64 I never played Paper Jam but now it reminds me of the chase for Kamek in Dream Team lol.
Yeah, Paper Jam at least got the combat very right, so there's at least something you can look forward to when playing it or going back to it, while Sticker Star, the stuff mentioned in the video sounds neat on paper, but none change the fact most of the game is either a very boring or annoying experience tbh, especially on repeated playthroughs
@@dustymcwari4468 Exactly, I would say it does gameplay overall pretty well for the most part.
As someone who skipped this game but has been replaying Dream Team (i.e. actually finishing it because I never did back then) due to the Brothership hype, seeing what it's really like is just. Heartbreaking. It's a slog of a game with weak story *and* it's needlessly cruel? Absolutely painful.
I'm glad I got recc'd this video! Here's hoping Brothership takes more cues from Dream Team to really shine (which it seems like it is!).
so I got a fun story that I doubt anyone else can tell y’all about this game vs dream team from a very specific pov: the differences in how certain reviewers got the games, specifically ones with kids.
So for context, my dad ran a small game review blog thing, focused mostly around Nintendo products. So sometimes, he would bring me and my brothers along to special events, because yknow, kids love video games and all that. Because of this, I got to play and own both Dream Team and Paper Jam early.
For the dream team event, we went to a downtown skyscraper in a nearby city, where we took an elevator to an upper floor, and entered a fantastically themed meeting room. I’m talking food, a cutout board, even a guy dressed as Mario. When we got the games, they came with Free 3Ds’s, color coded green or red, with matching special stickers you could put on the back so that when you were playing the games, you would look like you have a Mario or Luigi moustache. The people running the event were genuinely enthusiastic and everyone had a great time, and it lasted for about an hour, enough time for me to get to the dunes area iirc.
Now flash forward several years to the same kind of event, but for paper jam. Again, we go into an office building and take an ever stir to an upper floor. This time, the event is taking place in another meeting room, but instead of the fun decorations or anything of that sort, it’s just a normal board room, with a few reporters milling about. We once again get the games, and they come with NEW 3Ds XL’s, but instead of the fun and interesting colourful backs, it’s boring, bland, pure black, inside the same normal box you would find at a GameStop or Walmart at the time. And instead of the moustache stickers, we got some cheaply made papercraft models we could assemble. I don’t think I actually saw any of the other people there even touch them. I don’t think I saw the guy giving out the games and 3Ds’s interact with anyone after that, and the reporters felt tired and lifeless. It also only lasted long enough for me (who was essentially speedrunning the game with my additional skill of 7 years btw) to get to the end of the plains level.
so to summarize, the dream team event was fun, personal and passionate, while the paper jam event felt corporate and sterile. If that doesn’t say something about the differences between these two games, I don’t know what does. Also that second 3Ds got stolen in high school from my locker, while I still have the first one, peeling sticker and all. clearly I was much more attached to one of them, lol.
This was a great story. Thanks for sharing!
I still say that Paper Jam nailed the battles and enemy patterns. Don’t think any other game is as difficult in normal battles than Paper Jam from having to keep an eye on 3 characters instead of normal two.
When I first played Paper Jam I thought it was too short, not in playtime, just... it felt like the story was about to finally pick up a little and then it ended. I didn't even care about how long I had been playing for, I was totally ready to go into the book and see what the "second half" had to offer, but nope, that was it.
It left me sincerely unfullfilled and I haven't replayed it since.
Here's to Brotherhood being Brothergood.
I find it very funny that THE MOMENT the Mario and Luigi series comes into contact with Modern Paper Mario, they get their worst game yet. Paper Mario after Sticker Star was literally a poison lol
Yeah I know its another reason to hate Sticker Star lol.
This is both an absolutely devastating takedown of this game and the best, most generous defense of Sticker Star I’ve ever heard. Well done.
Now that both PM and M&L seem to be back their feet more or less I think we deserve a second attempt at this game. Pull characters from all across both franchises, merge gameplay elements from both style, really make it a true celebration of all things Mario RPG.
I think this is a pretty refreshing critique on the game, coming at it from a different angle than what I've seen before. The apathy argument is strong, and knowing the state of AlphaDream in its final years, you can see how miserable and tired a lot of the staff was by the end.
I wasn't sure at first about the lengthiness of the "everyone is mean to Luigi" bit, but thinking about it more I agree it is really uncomfortable. I think its so interesting how many things feel corrupted when the makers of a game don't care. What should be a grand adventure becomes a pointless endeavor, what should be fun combat becomes a tedious slog, and yeah what should be playful roasting becomes weird and cruel when all of the goodwill is removed.
The game is so resigned to everything, and hates itself for it. Its truly a haunting look at the game, what an incredible analysis.
While I completely agree with most of your points in this video (and am SO beyond happy to see someone talking so positively about Dream Team, seriously besides the tutorial I cannot fathom the vitriol that game gets) I'm not sure if I can totally agree with calling it a worse game than Sticker Star.
Normally I'm in the same camp as you, genuinely. I think being boring is worse than being bad. It's a reason that, say, I dislike Shadow the Hedgehog more than I do Sonic 06. So I completely get where you're coming from with that angle.
The only problem for me is, like you said, battle wise Paper Jam is mostly sound and arguably some of the most fun mechanically in the series. So that's at least some very, very scarce moments where I can at least say I'm having some fun with it.
Meanwhile, Sticker Star is actively being literally mean to the player of the game itself both in AND out of battle with the horrendous Thing sticker nonsense and some genuinely unfun but totally intentntional trolling. While Sticker Star definitely feels like it tries to have more heart in these generic Mario environments than Paper Jam ever would, that's honestly what makes it even MORE frustrating for me. With Paper Jam I at least know what I'm getting into - it's NSMB environments that are just a means to an end. Meanwhile Sticker Star feels like it's constantly reminding you that it CAN put more effort in, it CAN have more interesting things going on, but it will ultimately always fall back to the troped, safe Mario setting we have all grown numb to.
That certainly isn't to say it's still better and more engaging than Paper Jam, but at least I still feel like I'm playing an RPG with Paper Jam. I'm getting experience, leveling up, earning genuine new abilities as time goes on that aren't some one time limited use resource meant to literally roadblock you. It just feels like a better game.
But obviously that's just my own take. And Paper Jam is still ass, lol. Fantastic video, I'll definitely be sticking around for more and checking your other stuff. ❤
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Like I say in the video, the "being mean to the player" is definitely not a critique unique to just Paper Jam. I think maybe people got the wrong impression from this video thinking I'm, like, Sticker Star's biggest defender. I really don't think it's all that great of a game, but I have slightly more respect for it than I do Paper Jam.
Disliking either Sonic 06 or especially Shadow the Hedgehog just means you don't have anything of value to say on art in general, especially if you like Sonic Heroes, a game worse than Shadow the hedgehog in every way which also has all the same problems, yet because no one shoots a gun or drives a bike people think it's actually better somehow.
I grew up on Shadow the hedgehog, and it still proudly stands as a golden standard of what a great video game should be, especially in terms of atmosphere. Don't you dare besmirch that name ever again, you utter fool.
Go play Sonic Mania if actual art is too much for you. Leave it to people with refined tastes. I'm only halfway joking, maybe even less. I hate Mania, genuinely.
@AurumAlex64 I can totally see the perspective on that, I definitely never took it as you defending SS, just pointing out how it still had far more going on with it than Paper Jam at the least. Which is does, that can't be denied.
Just wanted to say thank you for the subtitles!!
From what I've seen this game utterly fails to capture the charm of both Paper Mario and M&L and as a result ends up being a big pile of nothing. Thank god we have the TRYD remake and Brothership now.
And also Super Mario RPG Remake.
This game would have been so much more tolerable if the Bowsers were actually doing something to the world. Imagine if instead of dropping cardboard onto the map for no reason other than to slow your progress, they were trying to terraform the Mushroom Kingdom or something. But nope, instead the game goes for the same crutch that was a trope by the time of the first Paper Mario game.
Paper Jam's biggest narrative sin, IMO, is how immensely poorly it uses its own premise.
Functionally, Peach and Paper Peach may as well be two copies (or perhaps two halves) of the same character. Nothing distinguishes the two other than Paper Peach being made of paper. The same goes for the Bowsers, the Bowser Jrs, the Kameks, and so on. Narratively, there may as well be only one Bowser, one Kamek, one Peach, etc, because at no point do any of them do anything to differentiate themselves from their counterpart - they never act independently of or against one another in any meaningful way.
Hell, we may as well talk about "the Marios" as well, considering how much Paper Jam seems to believe that Luigi's just being dragged along for the ride. While we're at it, why not extend that logic to every paper character outright, since _not one_ of the paper characters in this entire game ever gets to stand independently from a non-paper version of themselves?
Merge the Bowsers, the Bowser Jrs, the Peaches, the Kameks, the Toads, and the Marios together, and all you lose is the banter between the paper and non-paper versions of each character... and the idea that Paper Jam's story is anything more than a generic Mario storyline with a skeleton made of plot contrivances and literal paper skin.
I feel like the comparisons to sticker star are very unneeded. You talk a lot about how sticker star has the basic ideas of a story and characters, but you don’t talk about what that game misses (Bowser and Peach not being present at all until the very end, most levels being very vapid and having nothing going on plot wise, and the frequent road blocks through thing stickers that only exist to pad the game out). Comparatively, Paper Jam actually has decent character moments and plot relevant details. The story doesn’t just take a back seat like it does in Sticker Star, you actually are reminded of your goal. Both of these games do things better than the other, and worse than the other - but both still create an unsatisfying product through different ways. I feel like it would have been far better to talk about Paper Jam in its own merits instead of comparing it to a game that has completely different problems. The way you framed this video makes it seem like your defending Sticker Star instead of actually going into the heart of what makes Paper Jam a less interesting game than other M&L titles.
This is especially evident in how you barely talk about the combat, something Paper Jam does incredibly well in. It feels like you’re intentionally mostly ignoring the good parts of Paper Jam to make Sticker Star look better.
I do really like the idea behind your video, as discussing the lifeless world and narrative of Paper Jam is something that deserves more attention, but I feel like you really didn’t need to compare it to Sticker Star. It just takes away from the main point you’re trying to emphasis in your video, atleast in my opinion
While I do genuinely feel Sticker Star is a better game overall, I would hardly call it a great game, or even a good one. When I praise Sticker Star for placing Royal Stickers in each world, that's really faint praise, because that's the bare minimum in terms of what the game could do. The problem is that Paper Jam doesn't even clear that bar.
I think where I disagree is Paper Jam having decent character moments and plot relevant details. Sure, we see conversations between the Bowsers and Peaches and whatnot, but those are also the scenes laden with dropped plot lines, failed emotional beats, and self-deprecation. And its all in service of a story that's ultimately just a generic as Sticker Star's. So in the end, I'd argue that Sticker Star and Paper Jam's overarching story is really of comparable quality, Paper Jam just takes a few more text boxes to get there. In contrast, I really do think the Wiggler in World 3 is a better piece of storytelling than anything in Paper Jam, and PJ practically invites this comparison with its similarities in the first portion of Gloomy Woods. So I think I really only compare the two games when I think there's something that can be directly compared (and while it is true that I ignore many of Sticker Star's flaws in this video, that's only because they are, as you say, bespoke to Sticker Star, and this is not ultimately a video about that game).
To be fair to myself, I do think I do a decent job hedging throughout the video. I acknowledge the often frustrating levels at 20:27, when I say "Now Sticker Star often undermines itself with the specifics of some of those levels." I acknowledge the lackluster story at 21:22, when I say "Sticker Star's level and world design adds meaning to the game where its story often falters." I acknowledge at 36:42 I talk about some of the game's positive qualities, including how it improves tutorialization from Dream Team and its "pretty excellent combat." Earlier, at 21:58, I talk about how I like how the game gives context to how we learn new overworld trio moves. And for what it's worth, I do talk at length about many of Sticker Star's very real problems in my Color Splash video (but obviously, that's a completely different video and shouldn't be prerequisite knowledge for this one).
As for the combat, I didn't mention it because, honestly, it really didn't affect my opinion of the game. I think it's good, but it wasn't good enough to make me not disinterested in the game as a whole. I did attempt to do all the Expert Challenges this most recent playthrough (minus the arena bosses), and I kinda wish I hadn't. It meant that every time I encountered a new enemy, I would have to stop and spend 10 or so minutes learning their attack patterns, which made even the combat feel like a slog instead of a welcome reprieve from the rest of the game. But I recognize that was my choice to do those challenges and not something the game forced on me, so I didn't want to put that against the game. But it doesn't change the fact that once all is said and done, my takeaway from Paper Jam won't be its fun combat, it will be its lifeless world and annoying self-aware humor.
I heard that the devs KNEW that they couldn't make a proper paper mario and mario & luigi crossover.
...So, WHY THE FUCK DID YOU? Why not just MAKE another Mario & Luigi game!? Why shoot your new M&L game in the foot like that? People bitch and moan that the BiS remake was when the series started to decline, (even tho the remake is good) and yeah, while it didn't sell as well, I think THIS game was the start of the downfall.
Because capitalism. They have to make profits or else they get fired
I bought Bowser’s Inside Story when it got rereleased, I had wanted to play that game more than any other Mario game growing up. I was absolutely blown away, so I immediately bought Dream Team, and following that, (even though I remembered pegging it as a stinker from the trailers,) Paper Jam. I instantly picked up on the vast emptiness and road blockiness of it all. The completely vapid storytelling. It feels like there’s nothing there.
Not to mention that empty X button. I feel like Paper Luigi’s loud, sarcastic, bombastic personality would’ve been great to bounce off AlphaDream Luigi. Or maybe even a select few Paper partners to incorporate a little more Paper Mario into the battle system, and break up that roadblocky feeling in the overworld.
Imagine if the villa at Mount Birr was a Swiss chalet-themed dungeon where you had to go through all the staff areas in order to gather the staff keys to access the resort proper, and you had to explore the rooms of the hotel in order to find where the Peaches were being kept, and you had to navigate construction equipment set up to make the hotel more comfortable for Paper Bowser, culminating in a boss battle against the 3d chief of staff and head of the paper construction chief on a ski lift going up to the highest mountain where the Peaches were being kept in a lodge...
... But that would take too much time away from the player's busy schedule of repeatedly falling off bridges.
Yup, the villa is like the prime example of "this could've been so, so much more" in Paper Jam.
YES! Hell, they could have done that for most of the areas in the game.
THANK YOU. You actually got me questioning whether I actually prefer Sticker Star over Paper Jam, and I despise Sticker Star.
I still am not inclined to believe the sanitization was due to needing to reuse assets though. There are MANY examples where they had to make a brand new asset to insert a random mainline character with no prior history in the series, where they could have reused an asset from Dream Team to at least have some of M&L's original characters show up. The only case where they did this was Starlow. They weren't interested in reusing sprites of Popple even though it would've been nice to see him back. But Nabbit was worth making new sprites for. DT had basic NPC sprites for many species that could have populated the land (and no, just because it's the Mushroom Kingdom doesn't mean it has to be only Toads, heck the Brock species ORIGINATED in BIS which took place in the Mushroom Kingdom). Heck even the sprites of the main cast, who WERE in Dream Team, aren't reused from it. PJ takes place at a slightly different angle meaning they all have new sprites to fit that angle. Bowser is the most noticeable, but Mario and Luigi also are at a more frontal angle, closer to their Dream World sprites from DT but not quite that head-on. This game was not cutting corners in terms of making new sprites.
It also wouldn't have been any issue at all asset-wise to reuse sprites from PM:TTYD and SPM, they use the same sprite style as Sticker Star and would only have needed to be downscaled. Why are we randomly fighting King Boo and King Bob-Omb instead of oh idk, Doopliss and the Elite Trio? Heck King Boo's segment features a lot of ghosts transforming into other characters, THAT'S DOOPLISS'S THING. And if Bowser's the main villain where the heck are his three goofball minions that DT established as recurring members of his army and are literally IN the final scene with him?! The only reason I can think of for not using them is because they'd clash with the more basic vanilla take on the Mario world, which again had no reason to be used in the first place. This isn't a crossover between NSMBWii and NSMBU with a side of miscellaneous 3D Mario characters. It's a crossover between Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario, yet it seems more interested in aiming for the former character-wise.
TL;DR: They could have made this a love-letter to the legacy of both series with ample usage of their original characters, while creating LESS new character sprites than they did for this game. The 2010s was an era where it was painfully obvious the Mario IP was under tight regulation, but we didn't fully understand the nature of it until Origami King's interviews, at which point it was coming to an end anyway. They probably didn't want us knowing about the nature of the restrictions in 2015, we were already complaining enough without that knowledge. So I still think there's more to the story than the excuse they gave in that interview. DT's development simply started early enough that it got away with a lot more.
We actually know dream team started dev in 2010 as the devs said it took 3 years where as sticker star started in 2009(someome said it in the iwata asks on sticker star) I do feel the truth about paper marios oc restrictions will never fully be known as its not just dreAm team that had them and modofied stuff during the mostly generic mario time of 2011-2016. The 2 yoshi games released then also did. Toad restrictions apply to all stuff theres no denying that same with giving mario species hair or making new “king/boss” versions of them but only paper mario had the no ocs in the mario style thing going on and is still that way today as stuff like tennis aces and super rush have both ocs and modified stuff like the ice hand based on the mario 64 boss.
These are all good points, and there's probably more to the story than what these interviews have laid out, but I still do think budgetary/time constraints did play a part. Paper Jam just feels like a noticeably sloppier game than its predecessors, not just in terms of dropped storylines, but also in how glitchy the game is (See the Son of a Glitch video for some good examples). It just seems to me like development on this game didn't go as smoothly as was planned, leading to relatively unpolished game for Mario standards. I think it was just easier to slot in generic Mario mainstays like King Boo than to try and figure out how to slot in unique characters like Doopliss and Fawful in a way that made sense. But I really don't have an explanation for not reusing more from Dream Team.
The game was seemingly made in a year and a half at max as well thats less than even partners in time took to make going by how much time was between it and dream teams japansese release dates.
The absence of the Bonus Points system is what ruined Paper Jam for me. The entire Mario and Luigi gameplay loop feels totally empty without it.
EDIT: Jesus I forgot how mean spirited this game was lol💀💀
Crusty cameo
Crusty cameo
@@TheBrixHubAmigop cameo!!!
paper jam:
the 3d characters are sprites
the 2d characters are 3d models
also is no one ever going to mention how tower pokey with the sticker crown is who you fight in paper jam? isnt the crown... like literally no longer owned by tower pokey. either paper jam or sticker star isnt canon
Even if Paper Jam was meant to interrupt Sticker Star's story, there would be the issue of both Petey and Bowser NOT having their royal stickers. Pokey being there just makes no sense
I mean...seems like something happened to the sticker comet again
@@abra_escaped I don't think that's the case, I think it makes sense if someone touched the sticker comet again later on.
This is the one game I would inequivocally erase from the Mario canon altogether.
"mario canon"
@@GribbleGob. So you have no counterargument? Thanks for making that clear.
@@dragonbornexpress5650 I just think mario canon is a funny sentence, whats your problem? why so aggressive ?
Mario canon is a funny saying
@@YellowStoneColdBowlingBall well, what else am I supposed to call a timeline of events in that universe? I'd like to believe that universe to be "real", an immersive experience. '^^
The game and characters seem to make fun of Luigi to feel better about themselves/make themselves feel cool. It really doesn't make them look cool, it makes them insecure losers. Especially Starlow.
I couldn't 100% finish Paper Jam cause of many of the reasons you listed, but I will say that the combat is still extremely good, and tied with BIS it has my favorite standard boss theme in the M&L series (Big Bang slaps so hard honestly; also the Dry Bowser secret boss is incredible!)
These issues can be seen even in the one part of this game that's widely liked, that being the battle system. Ive heard people say it's the best battle system in the series, however that's *severely* undermined by the fact the opponents have drastically less character than the bosses of prior games. In Bowser's Inside Story alone; there's a fountain gone haywire, Bowser fighting his own castle after it's taken over by another faction, a living neural network with heads that change states like a lights out puzzle when attacked (Kretin is one of my favorite bosses in that game but I digress), a parasitic grub magical girl and a rival to Bowser who fights in a cage match and later gets ice powers to mirror Bowser's fire. Even the most standard fare boss in that game, Wiggler, has an interesting twist in being a farmer. Paper Jam just has "ooo but theres two of them ooo". The regular enemies display this too, naturally. Character is one of the most important things about a boss, since it's what sets them apart from any other kind of challenge, it's their X factor. Lose that and there's a problem.
Edit: Somehow, even the standard boss theme fits into my issues with the game. Sure, the second half is really good, but it's not worth slogging through the first half every loop to hear, just like how the battles aren't worth slogging through the story to experience.
This video summed up my feelings about this game perfectly. I still remember spending two years of my life writing articles on a fan made game wiki, depicting an alternate version of what I wanted the game to be, characters from the first four Mario & Luigi games existing, Paper Luigi being a playable character, a story that follows the rules of "This happened, BUT this happened and THEREFORE this happened". Thinking back to those days still makes my skin crawl, especially when I think about the fact that I was fourteen when the game came out and I was having a go at a 25 year old autistic man on the internet who kept harassing me over me not liking the game.
Seeing the reveal trailer for Mario & Luigi: Brothership felt like a shot of serotonin that I was waiting to get, for nearly a decade of being a bitter bastard towards different people on the internet and I will most certainly be giving it a go because it feels like they were picking up from where they left off from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team when it came to having an atmosphere that oozed with artistic merit, which I would argue was the most gorgeous looking game in the series at that point apart from the second game. That said however, one thing that I hope that they borrow from this game when it comes to the battle system is the Battle Cards as they acted as something to protect the player with more than one effect on the go.
Also I'd like to point out that the Japanese version of the game has names for the locations that reflect on the theme of doubleness. Which would've rung through if Paper Luigi was with Mario, Luigi and Paper Mario in the game.
These are the names translated to English:
Pair Plains
Fifty-Fifty Desert
Lookalike Archipelago
Overlapped Woods
Mirage Mountains
Wow, I'm glad to see the names actually did have a theming to them, I don't know why that was ditched for the English version. But yes, agreed with everything you said, including thinking Dream Team is the best looking game. I really, really love Dream Team as a whole.
@@AurumAlex64I remember when it came out I went on a holiday to France with my family and to this day I can still remember what it was like listening to the game’s soundtrack in France. Gorgeous to think about eleven years later.
Amazingly in depth video, I'd love to see you talk about Sticker Star since you seem to have a much more interesting view of it rather than just "its bad thats it"
I think Paper Jam's version of the "giant battles" was another thing that fell short. Bowser's Inside Story, Bowser literally dies from crushing then becomes giant to take revenge and put the boss in its place to debut the idea of big people fighting. Dream Team has Luigi grow with the dream powers to subdue the enemy that's otherwise terrifying him, and the touch screen's the most iconic part.
Papercraft Battles... You're riding an oversized cardboard figure to bash other oversized cardboard figures. They're not any sort of threat, and I'm not aware of why they even feel the need to do this. Just like, kick a green shell on the little dudes carrying the things. There's not even any engaging controls aside from dashing and throwing your Papercraft into things, which consumes energy recharged by a rhythm minigame for some reason.
Yeah, the Papercraft Battles... exist. Which pretty much describes most of the game. Definitely agree they are not fun to control.
This felt more like “40 Minutes of Roasting Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam” but it was really well informative! For the last 9 years, I knew it was an underwhelmingly mid missed potential of a game but this was the first and probably best video I’ve seen of explaining just that! Really hope Brothership fixes a lot of its previous errors so as to rinse the sourness off my mouth.
To be honest, I do think game only using standard Mario characters was because Mario spin-offs of the era were just using standard characters. A lot of the characters in PJ haven’t been in a M&L game before. They’re essentially preventing themselves from reusing enemies from Dream Team
35:50 Here you make a point about a sin of game design (and all entertainment): making the player the ass of the joke.
It makes us realize a difference in ways that a piece of entertainment can make fun of its audience. Most games do this by poking fun at the players' implied personalities or beliefs. Super Paper Mario famously did such with the entire character of Francis. Francis is a creepy otaku gamer that represents the player, and the negative connotation of gamers as a whole. The jokes aimed at him are cathartic because Francis is the villain, and deserves the insults the game throws at him. Making fun of the player through Francis is making fun of the player for reasons they deserve. Because gamers do deserve to be made fun of for their stereotypical behavior. But even then, the player doesn't deserve to be made fun of just for playing the game, right?
This is what happened in the two worst levels of Super Paper Mario. 2-3, the level in which Mario is put in debt and has to pay off 1,000,000 rubies by having the player hit blocks hundreds of times, and 5-3, in which archeologist Flint Cragley sends you down and makes you backtrack through a cave multiple times to find a key that he had on him the entire time. It was these levels that showed the first emergence of the Sticker Star / Paper Jam poison happened earlier than most remember.
In 2-3 and 5-3 however, the game insults Mario, a character who does nothing wrong to deserve it, solely to insult the player controlling him by wasting their time. Mario has done nothing wrong other than try to help, as likewise the player has done nothing wrong other than try to have fun playing the game. It's one of few times that a game is actively mean to the player, and it's not surprising it happened again in Paper Jam.
I think making jokes at the expense of the player can be a tricky thing. Super is a great example that straddles the line often. I agree with Francis being a positive example of making fun of the player. You also bring up 5-3 in Super, but I would argue 5-1 has maybe the most egregious example, which sees you backtrack to the beginning of the stage to type "Please" multiple times to an NPC so he can give you an overly long code that you need to input in at the end of the stage. Not good.
A bit unrelated to the video, but I do have to wonder how much of the Mario Mandate was simply a matter of developer preferences. Super Mario Bros. Wonder is a game which really makes leaps and strides to be distinct from the New Soup games, but it still very much uses many of the same world archetypes which had became standardized from that subseries (grasslands, dessert, snow, water, lava and the like). Maybe the devs just...like having the same types of worlds? It's certainly a possibility to consider
You know what's really weird? In Paper Jam, the "real" characters are animated by 2D sprites, and the "paper" characters are animated by 3D models. Think about that for a moment.
Having played both Sticker Star and Paper Jam as a child and loved them, I find it easier to sympathize with Sticker Star. Despite its poor battle system and lack of story, Sticker Star's flaws seem to stem from restrictions set by Nintendo, which forced developers to scrap many original ideas and make significant changes. Yet, it feels like they genuinely tried. There are small bits of charm scattered throughout the game; some of the Thing Stickers, despite their terrible in-game utilization, have unique animations. The Water Gun turns the game into a sort of arcade FPS, you have to blow out the candles on the cake sticker to make it work, and the turkey sticker does a goofy dance when you use it, which made my cousin and me laugh. Some of the levels seem to have at least a bit of thought put into them, like the Yoshi Sphinx, the Enigmansion, Chomp Ruins, etc. Sticker Star feels like a failed project, which is why, even though it's a bad game, it's hard for me to be mad at it. Paper Jam, despite being a better game objectively and having some funny dialogue here and there, feels even more shallow than Sticker Star. Sticker Star may be bland, but Paper Jam feels devoid of substance.
As maybe the only person who has played Paper Jam more than once, I can confidently say the only reason I keep coming back to it is because the game is so poorly made, you can glitch past almost all the roadblocks the game throws at you. Like, I kid you not, the very first toad village you come across is constructed _so badly_ that you can use it to walk through every wall in the game.
(I'd also say the Amiibo cards help quite a bit when fighting bosses that are fifteen levels above you.)
I can remember dream team coming out when I didn't have a 3DS and then hearing paper jam come out when I actually got one. I don't know why I didn't think about playing dream team first but I decided to get paper jam when it came out. The only real thing I remember from the game other than reusing the same enemies and designs over all from the generic Mario universe is trying to catch a lot of paper toads which was one of the most annoying things to do in the game. I'm so excited for Brothership because it actually has its own new characters once again that we have not seen in over 11 years from the series!
Yep, I could barely remember what happened in this game after a few years. Now that I've replayed it, I have a better understanding as to why.
0:40 thats a lil jumping spider! they have bigger front legs to help em jump. havent watched the whole video yet, just wanted to point this out first
I'm happy you were able to identify it, because I had no idea what kind it was when recording it! I meant to record paint slowly dripping down the wall, but I didn't have any paint on hand, so when I saw that spider, I thought it made for a suitably interesting substitute.
I feel like the worst part about games like this is that it could have been good, it's missing stuff like a good overworld game play loop and story which shouldn't be that hard mainly because you hit the nail on the head 4 times already, it has good fights but that's it and it's sad.
This has convinced me to replay partners in time. I swear, the way it handles its narrative is so underrated - the balance between humour and seriousness is perfect
This is the most positive I’ve ever seen sticker star talked about
Edit: I forgot to explicitly say- real fantastic video! It was super well edited, you conveyed all your ideas clearly, and the camera work at the beginning was excellent. Definitely gonna check out your other stuff soon! Anyways, back to my original comment :]
Fascinating video! I played this game when it came out and hated it. I felt like it'd betrayed everything I loved about BiS and Dream Team, and while I don't fully agree with that assessment anymore, you really hit the nail on the head about Paper Jam being a whole lot of nothing. I remember reaching Neo Bowser Castle and just... stopping, mostly because I didn't want to give the game the satisfaction of me finishing it. I know that's really petty, but that's the choice I made.
I do disagree with your thoughts about Paper Jam being... intentionally cynical, I guess would be the words? It sure does seem that way, I just struggle to imagine that it could've been intentional in a Mario product people got paid to make. (or, if it was intentional, that it could be that pervasive across the whole game) That being said- that doesn't invalidate your feelings about it! (I mean, it wouldn't anyway, but yeah) The fact the game can be read as blatantly attempting to waste your time says... a lot. A lot.
It's sad M&L's original games went out on such a whimper originally, but here's hoping Brothership hits it out of the park. It feels good to have Mario RPGs back, and I'm hopeful for the future! :)
Thanks! To be clear, I do not think the game is intentionally cynical in so far as the developers wanted to make fun of the people playing their game. But I do think the collection of self-deprecating jokes paints a pretty poor picture of the game overall. The jokes become more than the sum of its parts, so to speak.
It would've been cool if the game's plot started with Bowser kidnapping Mario in advance of his standard "take over the kingdom" plot because Mario always gets in the way and thus is trying to preempt it this time. Except it'd be Paper Bowser abducting M&L Mario, leaving the two Bowsers to come into conflict with one another, and Paper Mario and M&L Luigi can team up themselves to stop it instead. That'd rectify the problems with having the expanded party, while still easily letting both series' mechanics shine with their own character.
Thank you for this video, it pretty much puts all my thoughts about this game into words. It's disappointing that the game was budgeted as it is, though it feels like an insult that Starlow is the only M&L character to return in this game when her only role is to shoot down Luigi at almost every opportunity they interact. It's impossible for me to call this the true 5th M&L game when it breaks so many conventions of the series for the worse and has little to nothing to offer that the other games already did better. Brothership seems like a step back in the right direction, so hopefully it'll be great!
That being said, I love Nabbit so I am glad whenever he appears in Paper Jam lol
Only thing it does exceptionally well is the combat (and movement is also pretty fun, despite exploration being pretty dry in general)
It has ssome good combat and puzzle and ome exploration tbf, and some good bossses too.
Genuinely glad to see somebody finally acknowledging the positive qualities of Paper Mario: Sticker Star. Your other points were very well composed. I definitely agree this game feels like a strange misunderstanding of why these Mario RPGs even exist in the first place. Thanks for this great video!
Most of this shit is bullshit if you analyze it for like 5 seconds
Like, mcguffin stories are designed in order to make you find different locations and peoples, so that the characters have to explore the full world, but then in Sticker Star there is literally a single town and very few characters, cultures, unique locations to explore
TTYD did this right: It is a mcguffin plot! But every mcguffin is behind an entirely new town, tons of new characters, often entirely different cultures, and so it feels good. In Sticker Star, you get at best, what? One new character? An area that sounds cool on paper for a dungeon, but ends up feeling dull?
At least Paper Jam has gameplay!
@@internetguy7319 We know, people just act like sticker Star is 100% awful when it’s closer to 80%-90% awful. It’s bad, but not irredeemable, especially if Red’s “Paper Mario and the Sticker Comet” what-if means anything.
I feel bad for Luigi now. One thing is poking fun and then admitting he's as capable as his brother, which he is, and another thing is straight up calling him useless despite all his achievements and evolution.
Oh nah we ain’t praising Sticker Star (the worst Paper Mario game) all of a sudden just because Paper Jam is the most mid Mario & Luigi game. 💀
Sticker star isn’t completely awful garbage. There is some good stuff in there and even if sticker star is worse than paper jam, it doesn’t mean it’s impossible for sticker star to do some things better than paper jam
That's not what he said. He says that boring (or "mid") is as bad as, well, bad. Sticker Star is still terrible but at least it can say that it tried.
Yeah I know Sticker Star is WAY worse then Paper Jame can even dream of being.
Man, what a great analysis. You did an incredible job summing up all of my problems with this game.
In my experience, I disliked this game for how unmemorable, repetitive, and at times unpolished it is. (It crashed during boss fights three times.) But this video has given me so much more to think about. It hates Luigi because he’s genuine is such a great way to sum up the plot, and I love how you referenced Partners in Time for its great Star Hill Segment, giving both Luigi’s more time to shine them this game ever would.
I’d love to see your analysis on all the other games, especially Partners in Time, since I feel that game gets dunked on way more than it deserves, especially when compared to Paper Jam.
Yup, I love all the other Mario & Luigi games, so I will definitely be covering them at some point down the line. Partner's in Time is still great, even if it's not my favorite.
Also definitely agree wit the game being unpolished. I remember on my first playthrough accidentally softlocking in Twinsy Tropics by flying the Paper airplane into some rocks that you can't move out of. It was very strange. Couple that with some of the crazy glitches you can do in the game, it's pretty clear this game was budgeted.
It sucks we may never see a crossover from these two ever again. This should have been a crossover of quirk, style and personality.
Instead it set off on the first foot with a burnt out director. And an infamous installation of a usually beloved franchise.
What terrible timing.
A crossover between the Mario & Luigi games and the Paper Mario games should have been HUGE! And yet they kinda fumbled the bag. Its such a shame, and a waste of potential. :(
This is the only Mario game I refuse to accept as canon purely because it suggests that Paper Mario is a completely separate character from Mario.
Why would they be the same character?
@@nikoniortnike
The Paper Mario titles never make any effort to differentiate Paper Mario from non-paper Mario as far as being a separate character. If anything, he's treated like the same character in a different continuity.
In other words, why _wouldn't_ they be the same character?
@@VestedUTuber I can understand both interpretations of Paper Mario's relation with Mario. Someone who disagrees with you on this topic could argue that there's an implicit difference between Paper Mario and Mario that's underpinned by the vastly different worlds they inhabit as well as the very dimensions of the characters. In other words, the very fact that this version of Mario is labeled as "Paper" Mario is a tacit admission of the difference between the 2. The games don't need to actively state that the 2 Marios are different, just imply it through putting on display the differences between the characters.
In any case, the assertion that "he's treated like the same character in a different continuity" is flawed as Paper Mario's personality is identical to his 3D counterpart, thus characters would have no reason to treat him differently (and even that is only true if you arbitrarily discount Paper Jam).
In conclusion, I think both sides bring up good arguments, but I have yet to be swayed disproportionately towards one side.
One positive that comes with making super basic stories and uninteresting worlds is that you have a guarantee of good pacing. I find Paper Jam to be much easier to come back to because of just how slow Dream Team is. This isn't just about the tutorials that are impossible to avoid across all of DT; the entirety of the game is noticeably slower than what PJ ended up doing. From movement across the map to slow battles (in the dream world especially), the moment-to-moment gameplay of PJ was definitely an improvement compared to DT simply because they sped things up a bit.
I def agree, however the positive here does nothing for Paper Jam because it gives the player no interest to come back to it in the first place
I absolutely agree! I had to drag myself through DT since it was so slow it got boring. Paper Jam, however, was way more fun since it's more about gameplay!
Sticker Star will always be better than Paper Jam in my mind. An argument can be made with the battle mechanics, sure, but at least Sticker Star attempted to do something new. I always prefer a failed attempt rather than no attempt at all
Yup, other than the combat, I think I also prefer Sticker Star. At the very least, I think Sticker Star is a pretty visually appealing game.
I don't even think the gameplay is particularly bad. Yes, we all know it lacks a reward-mechanic like EXP, but everything else is fairly solid. It wants you to do genuine inventory management so you shouldn't have to rely on the failsave stickers you get when you run out mid-battle, being able to whale more attack opportunities with your coins is chaotic fun and the actual execution of attacks with the action commands is pretty much the same as prior games.
@@lpfan4491. Except it's not; Plus, that inventory management stuff only slows the game's pace to a crawl.
Ohhhh I'm happy the algorithm has recommended this to me! Definitely gonna be checking out the rest of your channel, really well thought-out video!
I looked it up, the Twinsy Tropics theme is called "波打ち際の物語" in the Japanese version, which translates to something like "The Story of the Shore". This makes me wonder just how much of the game's problem stems from translation. Were all of those jabs at Luigi in the original?
Edit: The location names all seem to be themed after "look-alikes" in the original. Pair Plains, 50-50 Desert, Overlap Forest, Mount Look-alike. These were all lost in translation to English.
Thank you for sharing this. That song title makes way more sense. And so do the area names. I really don't understand what was going on with the English translation
I remember when I bought this game several years back (can't believe its been 9 years) and I always felt this sort of emptiness that I couldn't put into words (apart from "bland"). To be fair, I really do feel that blandness was a fairly universal issue with mario games in the final years of the wii u and 3ds. Paper Jam is just another one on the pile
It is hilarious watching chuggaconroy’s hours-long analysis on Sticker Star and how bad it is, only to find this video showing how much better sticker Star was in some aspects. Really hammers in how truly boring paper jam is
Why are Paper Bowser Jr. and Paper Petey so smoothly animated compared to all the other Paper characters?
Very good video. The first section really explains a lot about both M&L and Paper Mario at the time. If the team was burned out before Dream Team (which was creative as hell), I can only imagine how taxing it must’ve been after DT’s release and trying to make this one. Personally, I think Paper Jam is just ok. The story and settings are pretty bland, but I can look past it, because the combat is just as good as always and arguably the best in the series with some neat bosses. Lots of tag teams, a timed battle, a battle without your 2D friend, your cards used against you, etc. It’s great to see Brothership look so exciting for it being a return to creative new stuff
I have to comment to say that the whole get to bowser’s castle bit cutting back to that same footage of the trio cracked me up