If Span is going to be taken seriously they need to be able to operate without internet access and only local control. Yes I know it works in outages but only for limited times. For setup and updates you must have Internet access
It is a no go for me until there is a published protocol that is able to do all functions without internet. I want the ability to interface with a PLC, HMI, or home automation system.
There is a beta API where you can access it locally. Currently it's only limited to what you can do in the consumer app. You cannot add or edit breakers.
Been a electrician since 1970 still working as a electrician now on TV and Film production at 74 years old. This is my favorite episode of all times on the build show. Great work and information Thanks 👍
My home is not something I'm willing to surrender to the internet and the inevitable hack/out-of-business. Make a local setup and function version and I'll buy it.
Questions: How reliable are the relays that control each breaker? How difficult is it to replace the relays that control the breakers? What is the cost of replacement relays and are they readily available?
We looked into installing one of these for a new build passive house. Took them 3 weeks to get back to us all to have them try to set up a meeting to see if our company was the right fit. Had already roughed the house and installed a $300 levington panel. Saved the customer a few grand.
There are different markets for everyone. There’s a reason some people buy Macs and some people buy chromebooks. Some people just like better and better looking products.
Exactly. $4000 or more for a device that will be as dumb as an existing panel when the company isn't around. I am sick of this model of business, it needs to be open and run without cloud requirements.
all software on the device, even their website (hugo) is open source using the apache 2.0 license. Like they said, all the components are normal industrial control contacts and standard panel equipment. this is easily replicated and honestly, simple, modular and open. the APIs are coming. still a new company. I am a licensed electrician, linux enthusiast and renewables guy, fyi.
The price of the Span is a no-go for me. The Leviton panel while not as fully featured has the key features I need at a significantly lower price. With Leviton, you wire the panel without the breakers present.
Yeah I really love how the lovington is plug on I don't understand why they wouldn't use the same technology it's so much better than screwing them into physical breakers
that could be the difference of the panel itself being smart vs the breakers themselves. the leviton seems more like a system that allows for more self hosting
I have never needed nor desired to control an entire circuit remotely. Monitoring can be accomplished much cheaper and easier (Emporium, etc). I still don't get it. Added hardware to fail. Added cost. I don't care about lights in the panel. I hope to never have to even open the panel door. This still seems like a solution in search of a problem. I don't need more data or control. I don't want my data being monitored and sold by some third party or government anymore than it already is. I have too much data already. I don't live my life controlled by my energy usage and will fight to never have to. Integration is not always a good thing. Think about "smart tvs" get rid of the cable box, Integrate the hardware into the tv....that didn't work, now we are back to individual devices (fire sticks, roku, etc.).
Going with Leviton on my own build. Looked at span, but the closed system, up-front cost and relying on custom relays from an up-start company for the switching scared me away. While the Leviton only has remote tripping and no individual circuit monitoring ability, it is well supported, modular (in replacing a failed breaker sense) and adding Iotawatt to it for open monitoring integration feels more supportable going forward to me.
Totally agreed. Adding to the fact there is no local/non-internet pathway with Span totally a no go. Iotawatt or Emporia Vue or similar project to add what the Leviton doesn't have.
I just did leviton and honestly its a waste I wish I didnt spend the extra money. at this point I would just do a conventional panel with an energy meter like you mentioned. Leviton breakers are hard to find stupid expensive and the energy monitoring is useless their software is terrible
I love my IoTaWatt, but unfortunately Bob is pretty much throwing in the towel. They are doing "one last batch" of production in September AFAIK. To me, the Span EV connector has much more value than the panel itself. I can add contactors for the oven, water heater, and dryer for the only real useful control, and then replace my Tesla wall connector with OpenEVSE and still be ahead over a Span.
I'm just a homeowner (not a pro), but do think SPAN makes a lot of sense when you add plans for electric vehicles and/or some sort of backup storage/generation to the mix. Basically, rather than having to hard-wire a critical loads panel, you can install a SPAN instead and program in the loads. And you can figure out what you want as critical loads whenever you like, even changing this during an outage. You don't have to size it to a specific amount of power generation, or even increase your electrical supply to fast-charge an EV.
The hardware might last for decades but the software and firmware will need continuous updates. The big question with anything connected to the internet is what about software/ firmware updates and security.
Yep, continous app updates to be compatible with current phone/device operating system updates. I have a "smart tv" that the manufacturer stopped maintaining special app builds for their hardware and now it's a dumb TV with a roku attached to it.
With grid outages, both summer and winter occurring more frequently, adding a span panel to control loads is key. When the grid isn’t available and you need to make sure whatever your alternates (solar, generator, battery) aren’t used on non critical areas and you can stretch it out as long as possible.
@@JarredSutherlandThe power needed in summer to cool from 105 to 75 is much more significant than 105 to 80. Even if it’s just a few hours that’s a significant load. Say you’re out of town on a trip, across town at work or an event or restaurant. How will you stop you major consumers (HVAC) from burning through your battery supply before you return? Yes, you can manually shut down loads, and estimate consumption on each circuits. This allows you to create automated profiles for different scenarios at different times of year and base them off your current supply of battery or generator power. Having historical usage trending can help forecast for properly sized solar, battery and generator systems. There are many examples of people getting these systems sized wrong, not knowing until an outage occurs &/or spending extra to fix the issues. This may not seem significant for 1500-2000 sq ft homes, but think about these factors on 4500-5500 or even larger homes with multiple HVAC zones, electric water heaters, etc. Maybe there’s refrigerated wine storage or a newborn’s nursery needing more consistent temperatures. In winter someone may prioritize keeping the pool pump running on low so pipes and equipment aren’t damaged. Priorities might be different if your family is home or away, winter or summer, changing based on outside temperatures, factors likely change over time for each home.
I will never install a electric panel that requires internet access. I say this as a huge tech nerd. More over, dealing with mains power, I'm not going with a new company.
I will remind everyone of the various disasters that surrounded the "Nest" thermostat brand products some years ago. Just as they were being rolled out for sale in every big box store, we saw a massive failure with lost internet service plus dangerously low temps leading to deadly houses *that had electricity and / or heat!* Because Nest didn't put in something like a "jumper" that said "Hey, absolute lowest the temp will ever go is .. 56 degrees" (or whatever). If I'm going to let your coder get at my load center data, I want to hear a really good story about how you're protecting my data, my PII, my finances, everything.
In general, smart circuits sound like a really good idea, either the breakers or the panel being smart. i like that this does not require a cloud connection just to work. Glad to hear that this is capable of self hosting on a home server. I do wonder that if SPAN does go out of business, will the software control still work?
The dirty secret around Span is that its value is highly dependent on how the house is wired and more precisely on what is on each circuit. You DO NOT MANAGE the loads with Span, you manage the circuits. HUGE difference. One of my circuit has most of my lights and my water heater, I also have all my garage door openers on the same circuit. The measurement is then not granular enough and the selection of the must have vs nice to have is becoming impossible at the load level. Having said that the problem is not the Span panel, it's my house wiring. I do love my Span and I will put it in my next house but I will design all the circuits myself so I can get it right the way I want.
Yes, exactly! You will likely find that you are going to need 2 SPAN panels if you end up splitting all your loads into individual circuits, unless you are building a tiny house. Over half of my 32 space panel is consumed with 220 circuits. (Heat Pump, Water heater, Range, Oven, Dryer, Emer Heat 1, Emer Heat 2, Pool Sub panel, EV charger, Garage 220). 20 of 32 spaces just to 220 loads with an all Electric house.
@@D2O2 Agree! At the same time, I would not necessarily split every load into an individual circuit but you have to be very intentional in the grouping of the loads depending on what monitoring you want to do and what are the must have vs nice to have. For most retrofit solution, that option of designing the circuit is, unfortunately, not a possibility.
This all sounds great, but I got a quote from a SPAN provided installer for over $17K to replace my existing, overcrowded circuit breaker panel. In comparison, I got a quote of $2K to install a new, conventional load center. This is insane! Who can afford to pay close to $20K for their home service panel? I would never recoup the cost even with time of use power consumption. I would rather spend $20K on additional LFP batteries. That way you don’t need to play around with programming backup circuits.
48 Amps for Span Drive is inadequate, especially given that most of Span’s target market is far more likely to buy 2+ cars batteries that are 100kW or larger.
Do you have control locally without internet via LAN? If not, power outage that takes down the internet in the area also knocks out your control of the panel. Maybe I missed it, but was this clearly answered? Seemed he said "It will function as setup" which sounds like no local control.
I have solar, and soon will have a generator. Span's biggest problem is the 32 circuit limitation. Some non-smart panels now support 66 circuits. I also don't believe the multiple panels really work together. With more and more electricity, 400A service is more and more common, but the 2x 200 amp panels are an absolute cost nightmare from an automatic transfer switch for generators or backup perspective. The fact SPAN doesn't have an integrated transfer switch is a big miss. For energy monitoring I use Brueltech's Green eye'd energy monitor connected to home assistance.
For what Short-Circuit Current Rating (SCCR) are SPAN’s add-ons (to whichever brand’s panelboard that SPAN is using inside their loadcenter cabinet) is LISTED to be rated? In other words, do SPAN’s add-ons compromise the SCCR of the panelboard’s LISTED SCCR? Is it FULL 10 kA SCCR, or is it marked for exceptions that decrease or eliminate the originally-LISTED SCCR? Same for LED drivers behind the “deadfront”?
1 thing that needs to be addressed is that if you switch OFF your wifi/modem accidently while away from the house is it safe to assume that you lose all control and the panel goes DEAD until you return home?
With all of the manufacturers of smart panels using wifi, what are they doing to protect the communications between panel and devices? Are the including a VPN in their apps?
I do Love this panel/idea, but I am wondering if you are able to use a SPAN along side a Bluetti EP900 battery system or does it only work fully for things like the Powerwall? Thanks and great product
Elec inspection/certificate-of-occupancy question: BRAND of circuit breaker is LISTED with the SAME BRAND of panelboard (busbars INSIDE a loadcenter). LISTED breakers of a DIFFERENT BRAND MUST be additionally CLASSIFIED to connected/plugged onto ANOTHER BRAND’s panelboard. What BRAND of LISTED PANELBOARD is INSIDE the SPAN loadcenter? Any issues with passing electrical inspection due to mixing of BREAKER BRAND with SPAN loadcenter? [example: Eaton LISTED breakers are CLASSIFIED to go onto a Square D LISTED panelboard but Square D LISTED breakers are NOT CLASSIFIED to go onto an Eaton LISTED panelboard inside a loadcenter.]
So they provide LTE connection, free of cost, and then over the air updates for free as well(how long will that be supported? Based on the 10 year warranty, 10 years is the answer). At what point will they start charging a monthly subscription? Subscriptions are becoming more and more common. I feel it's only a matter of time before they start charging for access to better features. I hope I'm wrong.
Where these panel monitors fail is that you always have a bunch of devices on the same circuit. You can't tell them apart. Only few devices have dedicated circuits.
In the app, you can at least specify what's plugged into that circuit. Not that's not going to tell what each of those devices is using, and that's only helpful if those plugged in decided don't change. It can still be helpful though because say you have three different circuits for the various outlets in your kitchen, one has the microwave and toaster oven, the other has the blender and coffee maker, and the other has an instant pot. You're probably just going to label them Kitchen Outlets 1, Kitchen Outlets 2 and Kitchen Outlets 3, and then under each one in the app, you specify what's plugged into it, it can still help you possibly narrow down a suspect appliance that causing issues. If Kitchen Outlets 1 is always tripping, and the app showes that's got the microwave and toaster over, it can speed up diagnosis.
I like all the features but it would help sell me if the software wasn't proprietary outside of security issues, what if I want to write an app for my electrical box?
If you spend that much time thinking about constantly monitoring your energy usage and shutting breakers off and on remotely, you are doing life wrong.
That's not the point at all I guess you've completely missed the point if you live in an area with lots of blackouts you can make your backup battery last for days versus hours if it automatically shuts off the AC and the car and the washer and the dryer and only keeps the light in the refrigerator and the computer is on You can still work you can still see and you didn't have to lift a finger
They make breakers with a bright orange indicator showing when it's tripped. It's not a light, but just a small piece of plastic behind a window and that's only visible when tripped.
I spoke with Span awhile back. Their product does not offer anything more than what a smart plug can do for your home for 20$. Either way, if you need to close a breaker you still need to verify it turned off at the breaker box anyways.
I'm not a fan of Span, but that isn't really true. The $20 smart plug handles a single small load and can't manage things like your air conditioner, water heater, dryer, or an EV charger. Those loads are what matter in terms of your total energy consumption as well as peak power demand. Also, when you scale to ~20 smart plugs it becomes painful to manage. What Span adds is a smart backplane for a panelboard. Relay control is a bit obsolete (either for a smart plug or Span), but the system can become the "brain" of the house. My objection is the cloudification of everything. My monitoring system stores everything in a local database which I find infinitely better for my needs... but I am comfortable setting that stuff up and am a minority.
What happens when the Span cloud servers are compromised? What makes me sleep better at night knowing a bad actor doesn't have access to my home energy panel to disable my "essential" devices/appliances?
There are some really cool features , but simultaneously I would have some concerns before I would invest in this service panel. Namely, the fact that this is an IOT (internet of Things) device, I'd mainly be concerned about security. There have been documented cases where smart appliances and smart home systems have been hacked for a variety of reasons, such as for pranks, to determine if the homeowner is home, and to use a "weak link" device to gain access to a LAN. If this were hacked, a criminal may be able to determine, based on electrical usage, that a homeowner is not home for an extended period of time like a vacation. Imagine a prankster turning off a circuit just for giggles, a malicious hacker turning off vital circuits in the home and holding them for ransom, or a squatter or thief learning that you're out of town based on changes to your normal electrical usage.
Only compatible with certain batteries (LG, solar edge, Tesla) and backup generator only with Tesla power wall. Not a fan of hardware that locks you into certain brands.
Hopefully, they continue to expand the batteries supported, or ideally, provide a generic battery application to provide the remaining runtime or state of charge (SOC) to the span panel based on the load.
Great episode. I'm impressed with SPAN. I've also been impressed with my SENSE app which monitors my current 40 year old panel. Does SPAN use algorithms to monitor power usage and power issues? For example, SENSE monitors for floating neutrals, motor stalls, and voltage dips/spikes. Is this something SPAN can do as well?
Here, where I'm at, no one wants this technology lol. The people who can afford it don't care about their usage. The folks who care are the ones who can't even afford to call an electrician. Hell, we're still trying to get folks with stab lok to get their panels swapped! And the town I'm from, there's so much 40s wiring, its crazy. So many apartment buildings still running off a 200a main, SE through the wall, not even a weatherhead. Thank god local code enforcement now makes the owners update the service when the building is sold. And the rest of the houses are updated to at least 100a main, but still using the 40s wiring with no ground and a bare neutral. So folks are buying these houses thinking the electrical is all good when really you start opening up boxes and you'll find all the original wiring still there!
I don't want my panel to catch a virus. Nor do I care how much power my TV consumes. I don't understand the desire to add enormous complexity, cost, and responsibility to my side of the meter. It would be convenient to have power in an outage but at what cost. Solar panels are expensive, wear out, and subject to damage. Batteries are expensive and wear out. Any potential cost savings on power is offset by the cost and maintenance of the equipment. Increased homeowners insurance rates. And if that thing ever gets hacked there is no telling what the cost may be to replace the panel and whatever else might be connected to it. We all know that the IOT do not often receive regular software and security updates like computers and phones do. I wouldn't put this in my house if you paid me to do it.
Am I just too German to not care about outages, batteries and - apparently - current panels not being able to charge electric cars? I don’t really see the need for any of what they said, I couldn’t even say any of the brand names of electrical panels we use in Germany but all of the current ones are perfectly fine for every use case here ( with electric cars getting charged through a wall box)
If SPAN can »CONTROL« ON/OFF, that’s SAFE but if it can »RECONNECT« ON remotely (i.e., override the breaker’s TRIP-OFF »DISCONNECT« to turn the breaker back ON) then that’s DANGEROUS. Please clarify.
As cool and beautiful as this is, does it really make sense? Should I really shut down major appliances by, effectively, just pulling the plug? knowing what each appliance and circuit draws would be interesting, so I suppose, I could save a little money with that knowledge. One missing link for all of these beautiful things is that there are many other parts required that are ugly grey. For instance, my Tesla wall charger is beautiful, but to meet code, it needs an ugly disconnect right next to it. Maybe SPAN should create a whole line of beautiful products. Just look at some Powerwall installation. The Powerwall itself is beautiful, but it's all the other boxes that are ugly.
Do people really want to give intelligence agencies more access to their privacy? The panel looks great but the way the future is looking, and how appliances and lights get more energy efficient, we might not be needing so much electrical infrastructure in the future…
Not sure if anyone has paid attention to panels in the past 20 years, but this was already done before and others have existed before this along with brands like Eaton doing this already with their breakers. Build channel is rather late on this. Years late.
@@vapeurdepisse I would say it's well North of 50%. I used to watch for building science content, now it's on par with the local news paid promotion segment.
Everyone wants you to download an app. Nope. This is a waste of money and an unnecessary risk for hacking. Not to mention having your data sold or having the unit bricked after the company doesn't support the box.
Buy am smart electric toilet and pay the price during loadshedding.... energy crisis in South Africa has made it clear that certain things are to remain analog forever.Imagine bring locked out of a smart home or paying cybersecurity for toilet because your neighbor keeps hacking😅....excuse as much as a car that can drive itself has benefits,i don't like being controlled and being told i cant drive because i smell alcohol.😅
i believe an unrecognized problem with microwave frequencies is the *voltage gated calcium ion channel in our cells...* that includes Wi-Fi but 5G is said to be a huge problem... i don't know though... i'm not the one looking at the cells...
If Span is going to be taken seriously they need to be able to operate without internet access and only local control. Yes I know it works in outages but only for limited times. For setup and updates you must have Internet access
Let alone the privacy issues and it keeps working for the consumer as legacy of span goes away or just drops support for your old model.
It is a no go for me until there is a published protocol that is able to do all functions without internet. I want the ability to interface with a PLC, HMI, or home automation system.
There is a beta API where you can access it locally. Currently it's only limited to what you can do in the consumer app. You cannot add or edit breakers.
Wouldn't physically opening the panel and flipping breakers be considered both operating without internet access and controlling locally?
@@imolazhp11 if you want to use it as a dumb panel yes, however if you want to used any of the features your paying for you need internet access.
Been a electrician since 1970 still working as a electrician now on TV and Film production at 74 years old.
This is my favorite episode of all times on the build show.
Great work and information Thanks
👍
My home is not something I'm willing to surrender to the internet and the inevitable hack/out-of-business. Make a local setup and function version and I'll buy it.
Questions: How reliable are the relays that control each breaker? How difficult is it to replace the relays that control the breakers? What is the cost of replacement relays and are they readily available?
We looked into installing one of these for a new build passive house. Took them 3 weeks to get back to us all to have them try to set up a meeting to see if our company was the right fit. Had already roughed the house and installed a $300 levington panel. Saved the customer a few grand.
There are different markets for everyone. There’s a reason some people buy Macs and some people buy chromebooks. Some people just like better and better looking products.
I'm building a new home in Vermont and will Def utilize the SPAN panel. As a Design Build Pro this is a game changer.
Ah yes, and in 5, 10, 15, 30+ years, what's support going to be like? There are some things that just need to be kept simple, modular, and open
Exactly. $4000 or more for a device that will be as dumb as an existing panel when the company isn't around. I am sick of this model of business, it needs to be open and run without cloud requirements.
all software on the device, even their website (hugo) is open source using the apache 2.0 license. Like they said, all the components are normal industrial control contacts and standard panel equipment.
this is easily replicated and honestly, simple, modular and open. the APIs are coming. still a new company.
I am a licensed electrician, linux enthusiast and renewables guy, fyi.
The price of the Span is a no-go for me. The Leviton panel while not as fully featured has the key features I need at a significantly lower price. With Leviton, you wire the panel without the breakers present.
Yeah I really love how the lovington is plug on I don't understand why they wouldn't use the same technology it's so much better than screwing them into physical breakers
that could be the difference of the panel itself being smart vs the breakers themselves. the leviton seems more like a system that allows for more self hosting
I have never needed nor desired to control an entire circuit remotely. Monitoring can be accomplished much cheaper and easier (Emporium, etc). I still don't get it. Added hardware to fail. Added cost. I don't care about lights in the panel. I hope to never have to even open the panel door. This still seems like a solution in search of a problem. I don't need more data or control. I don't want my data being monitored and sold by some third party or government anymore than it already is. I have too much data already. I don't live my life controlled by my energy usage and will fight to never have to. Integration is not always a good thing. Think about "smart tvs" get rid of the cable box, Integrate the hardware into the tv....that didn't work, now we are back to individual devices (fire sticks, roku, etc.).
Thank You Everybody for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.. Peace Shalom Salam Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
How are loads switched? Triacs? What happens if/when these "channel" specific elements fail? Switch to an empty slot or are they serviceable?
Going with Leviton on my own build. Looked at span, but the closed system, up-front cost and relying on custom relays from an up-start company for the switching scared me away. While the Leviton only has remote tripping and no individual circuit monitoring ability, it is well supported, modular (in replacing a failed breaker sense) and adding Iotawatt to it for open monitoring integration feels more supportable going forward to me.
Totally agreed. Adding to the fact there is no local/non-internet pathway with Span totally a no go. Iotawatt or Emporia Vue or similar project to add what the Leviton doesn't have.
I just did leviton and honestly its a waste I wish I didnt spend the extra money. at this point I would just do a conventional panel with an energy meter like you mentioned. Leviton breakers are hard to find stupid expensive and the energy monitoring is useless their software is terrible
I love my IoTaWatt, but unfortunately Bob is pretty much throwing in the towel. They are doing "one last batch" of production in September AFAIK.
To me, the Span EV connector has much more value than the panel itself. I can add contactors for the oven, water heater, and dryer for the only real useful control, and then replace my Tesla wall connector with OpenEVSE and still be ahead over a Span.
I'm just a homeowner (not a pro), but do think SPAN makes a lot of sense when you add plans for electric vehicles and/or some sort of backup storage/generation to the mix. Basically, rather than having to hard-wire a critical loads panel, you can install a SPAN instead and program in the loads. And you can figure out what you want as critical loads whenever you like, even changing this during an outage. You don't have to size it to a specific amount of power generation, or even increase your electrical supply to fast-charge an EV.
Or if you have a Sol Ark 15k hybrid inverter, then you don't have to wire up a critical loads panel since it can pass through 200amps.
No freaking way. Hackers delight
Why? I travel a lot and never have said I wish I could turn off my kids bedroom breaker.
LOL you and I both.
The hardware might last for decades but the software and firmware will need continuous updates. The big question with anything connected to the internet is what about software/ firmware updates and security.
Yep, continous app updates to be compatible with current phone/device operating system updates. I have a "smart tv" that the manufacturer stopped maintaining special app builds for their hardware and now it's a dumb TV with a roku attached to it.
They have to have the internet connection so they can track all your activity and sell the data to anyone who wants to buy. No other reason.
Power surges and lightning strikes on the lines do not help the longevity of electronics aswell.
@@crispusattucks8265 Yes, no way SPAN handles those better than old boring panel.
I would hope that the next iteration of the Span's EVSE charger would be Bi-Directional capable for V2H (V2X roadmap) and have the NACS connector.
With grid outages, both summer and winter occurring more frequently, adding a span panel to control loads is key. When the grid isn’t available and you need to make sure whatever your alternates (solar, generator, battery) aren’t used on non critical areas and you can stretch it out as long as possible.
You can do this already with standard breakers, you just turn them off manually. This isn't doing anything differently, it just shuts off loads.
@@JarredSutherlandThe power needed in summer to cool from 105 to 75 is much more significant than 105 to 80. Even if it’s just a few hours that’s a significant load. Say you’re out of town on a trip, across town at work or an event or restaurant. How will you stop you major consumers (HVAC) from burning through your battery supply before you return? Yes, you can manually shut down loads, and estimate consumption on each circuits. This allows you to create automated profiles for different scenarios at different times of year and base them off your current supply of battery or generator power.
Having historical usage trending can help forecast for properly sized solar, battery and generator systems. There are many examples of people getting these systems sized wrong, not knowing until an outage occurs &/or spending extra to fix the issues. This may not seem significant for 1500-2000 sq ft homes, but think about these factors on 4500-5500 or even larger homes with multiple HVAC zones, electric water heaters, etc. Maybe there’s refrigerated wine storage or a newborn’s nursery needing more consistent temperatures.
In winter someone may prioritize keeping the pool pump running on low so pipes and equipment aren’t damaged. Priorities might be different if your family is home or away, winter or summer, changing based on outside temperatures, factors likely change over time for each home.
I will never install a electric panel that requires internet access. I say this as a huge tech nerd.
More over, dealing with mains power, I'm not going with a new company.
I will remind everyone of the various disasters that surrounded the "Nest" thermostat brand products some years ago. Just as they were being rolled out for sale in every big box store, we saw a massive failure with lost internet service plus dangerously low temps leading to deadly houses *that had electricity and / or heat!* Because Nest didn't put in something like a "jumper" that said "Hey, absolute lowest the temp will ever go is .. 56 degrees" (or whatever). If I'm going to let your coder get at my load center data, I want to hear a really good story about how you're protecting my data, my PII, my finances, everything.
They’re having problems with the new versions to. Internal temperature inside the thermostat was in the 90’s so it would never turn the heat on.
In general, smart circuits sound like a really good idea, either the breakers or the panel being smart. i like that this does not require a cloud connection just to work. Glad to hear that this is capable of self hosting on a home server. I do wonder that if SPAN does go out of business, will the software control still work?
The dirty secret around Span is that its value is highly dependent on how the house is wired and more precisely on what is on each circuit. You DO NOT MANAGE the loads with Span, you manage the circuits. HUGE difference. One of my circuit has most of my lights and my water heater, I also have all my garage door openers on the same circuit. The measurement is then not granular enough and the selection of the must have vs nice to have is becoming impossible at the load level. Having said that the problem is not the Span panel, it's my house wiring. I do love my Span and I will put it in my next house but I will design all the circuits myself so I can get it right the way I want.
Yes, exactly! You will likely find that you are going to need 2 SPAN panels if you end up splitting all your loads into individual circuits, unless you are building a tiny house. Over half of my 32 space panel is consumed with 220 circuits. (Heat Pump, Water heater, Range, Oven, Dryer, Emer Heat 1, Emer Heat 2, Pool Sub panel, EV charger, Garage 220). 20 of 32 spaces just to 220 loads with an all Electric house.
@@D2O2 Agree! At the same time, I would not necessarily split every load into an individual circuit but you have to be very intentional in the grouping of the loads depending on what monitoring you want to do and what are the must have vs nice to have. For most retrofit solution, that option of designing the circuit is, unfortunately, not a possibility.
Does the span panel and L2 wall connector support bi directional charging and automatic transfer switching?
This all sounds great, but I got a quote from a SPAN provided installer for over $17K to replace my existing, overcrowded circuit breaker panel. In comparison, I got a quote of $2K to install a new, conventional load center. This is insane! Who can afford to pay close to $20K for their home service panel? I would never recoup the cost even with time of use power consumption. I would rather spend $20K on additional LFP batteries. That way you don’t need to play around with programming backup circuits.
48 Amps for Span Drive is inadequate, especially given that most of Span’s target market is far more likely to buy 2+ cars batteries that are 100kW or larger.
Do you have control locally without internet via LAN? If not, power outage that takes down the internet in the area also knocks out your control of the panel. Maybe I missed it, but was this clearly answered? Seemed he said "It will function as setup" which sounds like no local control.
I have solar, and soon will have a generator. Span's biggest problem is the 32 circuit limitation. Some non-smart panels now support 66 circuits. I also don't believe the multiple panels really work together. With more and more electricity, 400A service is more and more common, but the 2x 200 amp panels are an absolute cost nightmare from an automatic transfer switch for generators or backup perspective. The fact SPAN doesn't have an integrated transfer switch is a big miss. For energy monitoring I use Brueltech's Green eye'd energy monitor connected to home assistance.
What is the short circuit rating of the SPAN panels?
For what Short-Circuit Current Rating (SCCR) are SPAN’s add-ons (to whichever brand’s panelboard that SPAN is using inside their loadcenter cabinet) is LISTED to be rated? In other words, do SPAN’s add-ons compromise the SCCR of the panelboard’s LISTED SCCR? Is it FULL 10 kA SCCR, or is it marked for exceptions that decrease or eliminate the originally-LISTED SCCR?
Same for LED drivers behind the “deadfront”?
1 thing that needs to be addressed is that if you switch OFF your wifi/modem accidently while away from the house is it safe to assume that you lose all control and the panel goes DEAD until you return home?
And their charger is using the old connector. Assume they will update next year.
I’m in Northern California looking for CNC electrical site or is it C&C electrical for Span Installation
Why is it not plug on neutral?
I'm convinced the future is Digital Electricity.
Great show
Left and right opening as an option?
Good evening, do you need to be an authorized span I installed in order for me to install them, as an independent contractor?
Is the Span app going to be ported over to a PC/Mac platform?
With all of the manufacturers of smart panels using wifi, what are they doing to protect the communications between panel and devices? Are the including a VPN in their apps?
Can I install this panel myself at my house?
I do Love this panel/idea, but I am wondering if you are able to use a SPAN along side a Bluetti EP900 battery system or does it only work fully for things like the Powerwall? Thanks and great product
what is the maximum amount of Solar PV input? thanks
18kw
Elec inspection/certificate-of-occupancy question: BRAND of circuit breaker is LISTED with the SAME BRAND of panelboard (busbars INSIDE a loadcenter). LISTED breakers of a DIFFERENT BRAND MUST be additionally CLASSIFIED to connected/plugged onto ANOTHER BRAND’s panelboard. What BRAND of LISTED PANELBOARD is INSIDE the SPAN loadcenter? Any issues with passing electrical inspection due to mixing of BREAKER BRAND with SPAN loadcenter? [example: Eaton LISTED breakers are CLASSIFIED to go onto a Square D LISTED panelboard but Square D LISTED breakers are NOT CLASSIFIED to go onto an Eaton LISTED panelboard inside a loadcenter.]
Does this come with the feature where they shut off your power if Alexa thinks you said something racist?
We need more clips where Matt is as confused as we are!! 😂😂😅
Is SPAN coming to Europe (the EU) ?
How are the Span vs. Tesla lawsuits going? This will have a serious effect on these panels.
So they provide LTE connection, free of cost, and then over the air updates for free as well(how long will that be supported? Based on the 10 year warranty, 10 years is the answer). At what point will they start charging a monthly subscription? Subscriptions are becoming more and more common. I feel it's only a matter of time before they start charging for access to better features. I hope I'm wrong.
Where these panel monitors fail is that you always have a bunch of devices on the same circuit. You can't tell them apart. Only few devices have dedicated circuits.
In the app, you can at least specify what's plugged into that circuit. Not that's not going to tell what each of those devices is using, and that's only helpful if those plugged in decided don't change. It can still be helpful though because say you have three different circuits for the various outlets in your kitchen, one has the microwave and toaster oven, the other has the blender and coffee maker, and the other has an instant pot. You're probably just going to label them Kitchen Outlets 1, Kitchen Outlets 2 and Kitchen Outlets 3, and then under each one in the app, you specify what's plugged into it, it can still help you possibly narrow down a suspect appliance that causing issues. If Kitchen Outlets 1 is always tripping, and the app showes that's got the microwave and toaster over, it can speed up diagnosis.
I like all the features but it would help sell me if the software wasn't proprietary outside of security issues, what if I want to write an app for my electrical box?
N/G bars seem too short.
If you spend that much time thinking about constantly monitoring your energy usage and shutting breakers off and on remotely, you are doing life wrong.
THIS! SERIOUSLY!!! A++!
That's not the point at all I guess you've completely missed the point if you live in an area with lots of blackouts you can make your backup battery last for days versus hours if it automatically shuts off the AC and the car and the washer and the dryer and only keeps the light in the refrigerator and the computer is on You can still work you can still see and you didn't have to lift a finger
I wish there was an individual LED light that, came on when a breaker pops. Especially in a commercial vehicle.
🤘😎
They make breakers with a bright orange indicator showing when it's tripped. It's not a light, but just a small piece of plastic behind a window and that's only visible when tripped.
I spoke with Span awhile back. Their product does not offer anything more than what a smart plug can do for your home for 20$. Either way, if you need to close a breaker you still need to verify it turned off at the breaker box anyways.
I'm not a fan of Span, but that isn't really true. The $20 smart plug handles a single small load and can't manage things like your air conditioner, water heater, dryer, or an EV charger. Those loads are what matter in terms of your total energy consumption as well as peak power demand. Also, when you scale to ~20 smart plugs it becomes painful to manage.
What Span adds is a smart backplane for a panelboard. Relay control is a bit obsolete (either for a smart plug or Span), but the system can become the "brain" of the house.
My objection is the cloudification of everything. My monitoring system stores everything in a local database which I find infinitely better for my needs... but I am comfortable setting that stuff up and am a minority.
Would this panel be part of a solar installation and able to get Federal tax credits?
What happens when the Span cloud servers are compromised? What makes me sleep better at night knowing a bad actor doesn't have access to my home energy panel to disable my "essential" devices/appliances?
I like my gun metal gray box.
There are some really cool features , but simultaneously I would have some concerns before I would invest in this service panel. Namely, the fact that this is an IOT (internet of Things) device, I'd mainly be concerned about security. There have been documented cases where smart appliances and smart home systems have been hacked for a variety of reasons, such as for pranks, to determine if the homeowner is home, and to use a "weak link" device to gain access to a LAN. If this were hacked, a criminal may be able to determine, based on electrical usage, that a homeowner is not home for an extended period of time like a vacation. Imagine a prankster turning off a circuit just for giggles, a malicious hacker turning off vital circuits in the home and holding them for ransom, or a squatter or thief learning that you're out of town based on changes to your normal electrical usage.
Only compatible with certain batteries (LG, solar edge, Tesla) and backup generator only with Tesla power wall. Not a fan of hardware that locks you into certain brands.
That's big to me. I'm not a Power Wall fan ...Solar Edge's battery is pretty weak, LG Chem Resu is solid but aging, Enphase batteries are ok.
Hopefully, they continue to expand the batteries supported, or ideally, provide a generic battery application to provide the remaining runtime or state of charge (SOC) to the span panel based on the load.
And it’s….. $4000
@@crispusattucks8265 And pretty sure not just any contractor can get and install it.
Great episode. I'm impressed with SPAN. I've also been impressed with my SENSE app which monitors my current 40 year old panel. Does SPAN use algorithms to monitor power usage and power issues? For example, SENSE monitors for floating neutrals, motor stalls, and voltage dips/spikes. Is this something SPAN can do as well?
Here, where I'm at, no one wants this technology lol. The people who can afford it don't care about their usage. The folks who care are the ones who can't even afford to call an electrician. Hell, we're still trying to get folks with stab lok to get their panels swapped! And the town I'm from, there's so much 40s wiring, its crazy. So many apartment buildings still running off a 200a main, SE through the wall, not even a weatherhead. Thank god local code enforcement now makes the owners update the service when the building is sold. And the rest of the houses are updated to at least 100a main, but still using the 40s wiring with no ground and a bare neutral. So folks are buying these houses thinking the electrical is all good when really you start opening up boxes and you'll find all the original wiring still there!
I don't want my panel to catch a virus. Nor do I care how much power my TV consumes. I don't understand the desire to add enormous complexity, cost, and responsibility to my side of the meter. It would be convenient to have power in an outage but at what cost. Solar panels are expensive, wear out, and subject to damage. Batteries are expensive and wear out. Any potential cost savings on power is offset by the cost and maintenance of the equipment. Increased homeowners insurance rates. And if that thing ever gets hacked there is no telling what the cost may be to replace the panel and whatever else might be connected to it. We all know that the IOT do not often receive regular software and security updates like computers and phones do. I wouldn't put this in my house if you paid me to do it.
Thank you so much for this. Hoping to build a new home in a year or so, so this was great help in terms of planning
Love this!!!
Nice
Am I just too German to not care about outages, batteries and - apparently - current panels not being able to charge electric cars?
I don’t really see the need for any of what they said, I couldn’t even say any of the brand names of electrical panels we use in Germany but all of the current ones are perfectly fine for every use case here ( with electric cars getting charged through a wall box)
If SPAN can »CONTROL« ON/OFF, that’s SAFE but if it can »RECONNECT« ON remotely (i.e., override the breaker’s TRIP-OFF »DISCONNECT« to turn the breaker back ON) then that’s DANGEROUS. Please clarify.
CJ the electrician giving some “questions” that were made to sound tough or objective when he’s obviously a biased user were really cringe.
As cool and beautiful as this is, does it really make sense? Should I really shut down major appliances by, effectively, just pulling the plug? knowing what each appliance and circuit draws would be interesting, so I suppose, I could save a little money with that knowledge.
One missing link for all of these beautiful things is that there are many other parts required that are ugly grey. For instance, my Tesla wall charger is beautiful, but to meet code, it needs an ugly disconnect right next to it. Maybe SPAN should create a whole line of beautiful products. Just look at some Powerwall installation. The Powerwall itself is beautiful, but it's all the other boxes that are ugly.
nice! 👍🏿
In todays episode of “Who is paying Matt”……
Yeah... this one was the first time I was pretty disappointed. This product is security/privacy nightmare.
😂😂😂
Do people really want to give intelligence agencies more access to their privacy? The panel looks great but the way the future is looking, and how appliances and lights get more energy efficient, we might not be needing so much electrical infrastructure in the future…
Too long to watch… sorry
Not sure if anyone has paid attention to panels in the past 20 years, but this was already done before and others have existed before this along with brands like Eaton doing this already with their breakers. Build channel is rather late on this. Years late.
This video is the equivalent of the paid promotional segment on local news channels. Span marketing, not an objective review.
@@D2O2 Yeah what I don't like about this channel is that it's now 50% promotional crap. Any time you hear a brand name, it's because it's a sponsor.
@@vapeurdepisse I would say it's well North of 50%. I used to watch for building science content, now it's on par with the local news paid promotion segment.
I'll pass on a wifi snitching panel.
no
Love your stuff Matt. Josh from Australia
Lol
I hope not on the EV Charger
The _only_ thing stopping me from buying one of these literally tomorrow, is PLEASE BRING IT TO CANADA!!!! ffs...
4500$ ooof
Everyone wants you to download an app. Nope. This is a waste of money and an unnecessary risk for hacking. Not to mention having your data sold or having the unit bricked after the company doesn't support the box.
Buy am smart electric toilet and pay the price during loadshedding.... energy crisis in South Africa has made it clear that certain things are to remain analog forever.Imagine bring locked out of a smart home or paying cybersecurity for toilet because your neighbor keeps hacking😅....excuse as much as a car that can drive itself has benefits,i don't like being controlled and being told i cant drive because i smell alcohol.😅
Time to move out of California
So, basically it is just a glorified electric meter.
No thanks.
Nope, waste of money and a waste of time. Pass
Don't need it.
Ev integration
i believe an unrecognized problem with microwave frequencies is the *voltage gated calcium ion channel in our cells...* that includes Wi-Fi but 5G is said to be a huge problem... i don't know though... i'm not the one looking at the cells...
Better turn off the sun then because it's been bombing us with most of the spectrum for millennia at power rates exponentially more than wifi or 5g.