From thier FAQ: "Today, SPAN does not have an open API for local control." This needs to be added before I'd consider installing a SPAN panel. It's a cool idea to monitor, and manage energy usage, but dependence on the cloud is too big of an issue, even if SPAN's current leadership is benevelant. And it would help deter issues like the one Chamberlain made for themselves with their garage door openers.
The government has a way of getting access to every companies data. This would be no different. Before you think what could they do with this info? Ask farmers in new Zealand who pay a cow flatulence tax
Just wanna give a little addendum, here. That is their *official* response, but some people working on Home Assistant made a plugin that was (or is) able to connect with SPAN for remote control. It at one point had involved some sort of door-switch authentication to prove you're really the one accessing it remotely, or something like that...
I just moved into my newly constructed house in Northern Idaho and I have to tell you, all I kept thinking about through this whole build is would this pass the "STUD PACK" inspection? I also binged watched all your videos BEFORE we went through the 1 yr building process and you taught me so many things that when it came to what we wanted in our build I had a list of 62 questions that I actually floored the builder because he's NEVER had a 63 yr old woman ask questions like that. I learned from watching every single video you put out. Now I wish I could have had you build my home to the detail you all put in the Dream Garage. You do fantastic work and you should be proud.
Rather than the panel becoming a 'dumb panel' if SPAN goes out of business, SPAN should make the app/panel have local control by default. This would be a solution to the people that are concerned about others controlling their panel. This would also mean that once you have the panel you no longer need SPAN to be in business to see/control it with the app. And if you think they couldn't do it for some reason, local control is how a lot of devices in the smart home segment are controlled. Only the products that people should stay away from force cloud integration to control the product locally.
Absolutely just HomeKit certification would resolve most of the cloud dependency, let alone an actually open API. Without an open API you're buying a shiny appliance you have no actual ownership of. Part of their business model will be selling usage data. Even if somehow it's not in their EULA today, that can be modified anytime for any reason, like a sale to a new owner that has no moral or ethical considerations. It's not about paranoia or conspiracies, you're putting trust in a corporation, which is incapable of morality. Even if someone there today is a great person that can control the greed and misuse, they won't be around forever.
Some sort of escrow deal to open the local api as part of the wind-down, if the company closes. Like Google did with the stadia game controller, last firmware upgrade they pushed turned it into a generic bluetooth game controller.
Stud Pack needs to watch more Louis Rossman and see how often these companies will change the EULA on something you already bought and force you to agree to new terms you didn't want to keep using the hardware you already paid for. Call me a cowboy, but we need to stop allowing these cloud services into our homes. Smart home stuff is great, and the hardware for this panel looks really cool, but it should be local, talking to a home assistant server in your media closet where only you control it and your data stays private.
😂 sorry to disappoint y’all… but hold on to your cowboy hats, the next videos are going to make you more crazy. They already said they are building a fully smart and automated house 😅
Yup, I have all the power monitoring that this SPAN panel has, but it's all hardware I control. I installed loop style current sensors on each circuit, using an Emporia Vue 2 ($165), flashed with esphome (open source firmwaere) and feed it all to my Home Assistant install that does the monitoring, graphing and smarts. Don't have individual circuit on/off capability, but the rest of it is there, if not quite as pretty.
Hey StudPack I saw that you donated to Arlo's retirement on the Perkins Brothers Builders channel! Thanks for supporting him! I sent a few dollars his way also! Great community we have on TH-cam of builders!!
@@Ogilla The PBB are doing it as a suprise for him, a gift! Watch the last episode from today! This was his last house he was working on and is retiring! Great guy!
@Ogilla if you didn't learn anything from the man don't give him any money, but he's certainly not getting TH-cam money. It's an easy way to show the man some respect for his shared knowledge. Now go run along to being negative in a different comment section
@@_JamesBrown I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion with my comment lol. I’m a huge fan of Arlo and I’m in awe of his knowledge, attention to details and creativity. He was my favorite from the Perkin’s crew. I just didn’t understand why people were giving him money for his retirement, since I haven’t had the chance to watch PBB’s latest video.
Companies like SPAN can and often do pull a Darth Vader "I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further" rug pull by changing the ToS, forcing you to make a choice: Do you want to turn your smart panel into an exorbitantly expensive fancy looking dumb panel, or agree to the new ToS that violates your privacy and sells you out to the new energy tzar that fines you for running your AC too much. It doesn't matter what the ToS says or what agreements they do or don't have with third parties *today* if all of these things can change in the future when the VCs get bored and want their 10x payout. YOU are the collateral for the big VC loans. And don't think it will be this in your face, they'll boil you slowly.
@3nertia they wouldn't pay for directional boring to bury the power lines, but a 3500 panel was in the budget. Could have gotten by with one 1/5 the cost.
@wojtek-33 if they were not getting it for free they wouldn't be using it. Half the decision in a building are aesthetic. That panel is silly. None of these youtube builders would be using them if they were not being given them for free.
As a someone who as spent years in the cyber security industry I have many questions. First it connects both though LAN and WiFi so any device on that local network could in theory shutoff/control your power. (Yes this is a problem with the smart meters too however its much more likely for an compromise to occur on your local network with so many IOT devices). Second: what happens when they get new panels and the current panel no longer gets security updates. Going bsck to my previous point if the company runs out of business that actually poses a significant number of risks to not just your smart panel but all of them. Third: not having local API access is more of a personal issue I have with it especially since tools like Home Assistant would be a perfect addon to a panel like this. Lastly your point on everyone already having your data. Yes this is partly true. However, just because a lot of your personal information is for sale online doesnt mean we should be adding to it. Its also worth noting that almost every company is trying to switch to a subscription model for everything so there is no guarantee that the current state is going to remain. I could go on. But I thinj my point is made. While its a very cool technology which definitely could save you money in the long term. Understand what thoses risks are. PS If you are going to be installing a large number of IOT devices. Setting up a separate VLAN/wireless network specially for then would be strongly recommended.
Smart meters are not on WiFi. They’re on their on radio frequency or power line carrier (maybe). WiFi devices in a house cannot control the meter and they can’t be hacked from outside through your WiFi. But, I agree that if the panel is on WiFi there is the potential for control by other devices on the WiFi (or from hacking).
@@3nertia a vlan is not a guest network or vpn. its a virtual local area network. Your network infrastructure needs to have support for vlans. The idea being you can segment the physical network into logical parts and then control communication between them.
@@Chevronsam Invest in a smart switch. Also, the "Poor man's IOT network" is that most all in one routers have a guest network setting built in that has limited access. Most reputable router brands allow guest networks to talk to the internet, but not any device on your main network. Hope that helps!
Ask Span how to handle when you sell a house with a span panel... How do you know the old owner loses access to the smart panel? Do they let you to have multiple phones access the data? Can you make a home assistant integration for Span?
Ok, I'll be that guy to say it... Don't trivialize the privacy and control aspects of "smart" things too much. It's fun to kid about "Big Brother", but each of us gives up more and more of our control and autonomy every day with various devices. We should always be thinking of what every product is capable of, now and in the foreseeable future. For instance, one of the new trends is allowing your EV car or truck to connect to your "smarthome" so the home panel can can take the lower cost battery power from it in the middle of the day when utility rates are at their highest, then charge it back up overnight at a lower cost. Might sound good but once you realize it also means the utility company can take your battery power as THEY see fit (brownnouts, blackouts, at will...) you have potential new concerns to think over. As everything becomes more interconnected, monitored, and our personal data gets analyzed and sold, we should at least be aware of what ramifications could come from that. We are always giving up a part of us in exchange for something, usually a convenience. Make sure you know what a new product is doing behind the scenes, what it's capabilities are now, and what potential the product has for potentially more "nefarious" things in the future. When any company promises to keep your data safe and said product secure, realize the company could be acquired tomorrow (or that division spun off and sold) to a much larger firm that may have a very different plan for what your data or panel should and shouldn't do. Be diligent in your discovery of what road you're potentially going down with every new connected product and you will be a better informed person for choosing or avoiding it. Ignorance may be bliss, but caveat emptor is your best approach.
My #1 rule for IoT is: It's an InTRAnet of Things. - Cloud services can be OK depending on the data that goes there, but I'll have nothing that *requires* a cloud service. - All smart devices live on a VLAN with no access to the Internet.
Before I commented I went ahead and watch the full video just to make sure I didn't miss something that addresses my concerns. My concern is that this panel is in fact attached to a cloud service on the internet where hacks happen very often. The fact thats this panel does not allow or restrict functions such as turning on and off power to local only is crazy to me. And so why is that you may ask? To put it simply I would never ever ever put trust into a company to manage a cloud service that allows access to control my power, sure power companies have this type of access (sorta) however I do believe them to be more secure as they do not talk over the internet but under their own frequency which makes them at least somewhat more resistant to say someone in another country sitting at their computer. Overall I think this is quite dangerous in general, its one thing if you decide to do that yourself its another when the company actively requires it. Play stupid games win stupid prizes... I'd go deeper but I've already rewrote this comment like 3 times to simplify a bit.
Thank you, Jordan, for getting these videos out to us as you do. I know how much work it is and I for one really appreciate your diligence and efforts!! Cheers man!!
I'm so glad you're choosing to hard-wire the internet connection to that thing. So many "smart homes" are just a bunch of wifi connected devices and once you have enough they start really bogging each other down. If it's a permanent installation it should be hard-wired just like y'all did here!
Span isn't for me; I like local data storage and circuit breaker level control is a bit limiting. My system stores data every 5 seconds and lets me work with it in different ways to get information beyond just energy use. (As an example-- how many times did the refrigerator compressor start and how many hours did it run each day. The answer told me there was a problem with the fridge and that let me save ~3kWh/day.) My bigger issue with cloud services is that they can change the deal anytime they want, including charging a monthly fee for the smart functions.
NEVER use an off-site server not directly under your control manage anything in your home if at all possible. The company could go out of business, change their product support, or anything you can think of.
@@michael-1382 The end of the video doesn't address what problems @u8qu1tis was talking about. Span could introduce a monthly fee for all their smart features which more companies than I can count have done when those features were free originally. If you dont like their new fees then you are left with a dumb panel, if they go out of business you are left with a dumb panel, not a big deal for Stud Pack since they got the panel for free but I would have a problem with them turning my $4k panel into a $600 panel over night.
Do you suggest the regular joe should go start rolling their own crypto too? Better yet, everyone should just build their own internet in case the internet goes down
I went back and forth between Leviton and Span. I decided that a smart breaker (while more expensive upfront) was better than a smart backbone. Much easier to change a breaker than a whole panel should technology change. Plus Leviton has been around a LOT longer!
Heard that Leviton GFCI & AFCI circuit breakers are all made in cheating lack of quality control communist china. I go way out of my way to NEVER purchase or use any tools, safety & test equipment & electrical products from nogoodnic china.
I'm old school and from previous experiences good luck getting tech support, replacement boards or even chips on any electronics over ten years old. Hard to throw away a few $10, O00 VFD drives that were only 8 years old because vendor could no longer get parts to build or repair boards. Of course the new drives now have heavy wires that can only enter thru the bottom of drive while old drives had the conduits entering top of drives making you spend over halve a day to install a trough and splice ever wire. Had the same problem with $1,000 to $15,000 lightning / dimming controls.
Worked with halve a dozen VFD companies and found ABB tech support to be the absolute worst. On one job the contractor lost or throw away the manuals for over 200 ABB drives. It took prima Donna ABB 5 emails & two weeks to finally tell me how to find the DC Buss voltage on 480 volt 6 & 18 pulse drives. When I called them asking if a 125 HP maybe 6' wife double door 18 pulse drives had a thermostat to control the cooling fans like far easy to deal with Danfoss drives had. They asked me several times why I wanted to know this. Da. These ABB drives were in an air conditioned space these chiller pumps did not run all winter but expensive fan ran 24/7. Company left drives Power on because once a week they would run them for a few minutes to check seals and make sure they worked.
@@JohnThomas-lq5qp I can get a manual in about 5 minutes on their website. As far as tech support, I have not had to deal with them personally. I have a contact that lives and breathes ABB. He has literally walked me through parameter changes from memory.
Paul you are a #1 interviewer and spokes person. Sure it takes a few takes some times, but you explain things so well and relaxed. It's a pleasure. Your a diamond in the industry of home reno shows and U Tube presenters and influencers. You could probably demand a premium for marketing the sponcors products. Great episode it was my pleasure. Oh and Jordan big shout out to you for the behind the scenes editing that makes it all look and sound so professional. 5 **** guys all the way. No wonder that electrician kept calling you Sir.
I love it when Paul talks to tradespeople. He asks great questions and has an awesome rapport. Knows how to ask basic questions that lead to very informative answers.
Questions: 1) Span takes which kind of breaker? You picked up Square D 20 amp 2P at Ace. The others were Eaton. Do they accept all brand of breakers? 2) Can Span do plug on neutral breakers? 3) Is the energy management software a replacement for a load controller to prevent demand spikes? 4) Does Span have any built-in surge suppression? If so, is it replaceable?
Thanks for going over the electrical! It's my favorite for sure. I like the concept of the span panel, and hope to see this reviewed several years down the line. I'm still not sold on it being an EMS and relying on that to protect your electrical panel from overloading. I'm not sold on the cost either, a traditional Square D panel and the cost of a residential EMS panel is far cheaper than a Span panel. I guess you have to decide if the "smart" features are truly worth the extra couple thousand dollars.
For a lot of panels, you can only plug tandem/quad breakers into specific slots (usually the lower portion of the panel). A bit of pre-planning will make the process of converting to tandems easier. Ex: In the case you mentioned, if you had to move some circuits to a tandem, moving them toward their entry location is easier then moving them away from the entry unless you included a service loop. Also, moving the high current wires are MUCH more difficult. It is way easier to move the 15/20A single phase lines.
I love my leviton panels I have. Same price as other panels and has full smart capabilities. I can't imagine how much that span panel costs. I added emporium CT sensors on my wires and it works awesome. Levitons smart breakers are quite expensive and aren't real time reporting from what I read. Leviton panels was 200. 50 per arc fault GFCI breakers so that was not cheap but much less than what you said the span cost.
Just wondering if you use a double breaker if the panel will still be able to differentiate the usage from each pole or will it have to group together the usage?
As an International Industrial EE this is what I love to see. I love to see and look on TH-cam for electrical installations, it is so relaxing to see work being done on panels. Specially when every country have their own way of doing stuff: EU vs US vs Asia. Nice work being done in your son's house Paul, those electricians did a crack of a clean job with the connections, no rats nests as I unfortunately commonly see most of the times. Keep up the good work, I'm loving this series as I said before.
$3500 for an electrical panel with a fragile glass lid? I can get a conventional panel for 1/10th of that. Or even less if I buy a like new or new one on Facebook marketplace. I don't care if it looks utilitarian. It's a breaker panel and is tucked away in a discreet location anyway. As to its ability to track the usage of all circuits and help you minimize electrical usage? Other than being a Fitbit for your house, not buying it. I already know what the big drivers are for my electrical usage. And I already do what I can to minimize consumption on those circuits and for all the smaller circuits as well {replace incandescent/fluorescent with LED, super-insulate and seal the house, use energy efficient appliances, keep my smart thermostat at reasonable temps in the winter and summer etc}. As to tracking smaller circuits, I'm not buying I could "save a bundle" by doing that. I use electricity where and when I need it. I don't leave things turned on or plugged in unnecessarily. And I don't need a house Fitbit device to remind me that I have been leaving things on or plugged in unnecessarily. I have the old fashioned "smarts" that I've been using my whole life - it's called "common sense." Here's the reality. Looks like a young guy with money wanted the whiz bang look in his new giant home chock full of very non-energy efficient features. Hooking up a massive 400A electrical service while claiming to want to save energy and track every microwatt. Forest through the trees. The channel was sponsored by Span who provided their expensive product for free in exchange for a positive infomercial {and possibly more money as an advertising supplement}. It has embedded modern technology {circuits inside it} to communicate with your current cellphone or wifi network. As it ages and as your cellphone/network technology evolves and changes - WHICH IT WILL - eventually the circuitry and/or software inside the Span breaker panel will become obsolete. As all computerized high technology does at an increasingly rapid pace. Obsolete not in the sense the circuitry will break and stop working {although that's certainly possible too}, obsolete in that its old communication protocol will no longer be compatible with whatever device or embedded Elon brain chip you'll eventually be using. And guess what time it is then? Either upgrade the circuitry and software - if that's even possible - or your panel reverts to a conventional dumb panel. A $3500 dumb panel, that is. Which in itself is pretty dumb, isn't it? My current breaker box is 30 years old and still works perfectly. I can also buy all parts and breakers I need to maintain it. If I pay $3500 for a Span box, will it last 30 years? Will all the parts, software updates and functionality be made available by Span in that same timeframe? Hmmm, that's like asking if your cellphone will last 30 years. And we all know the answer to that question...K.I.S.S.
As a software developer I hate how even the panel has to be “smart”. Nothing like hoping that your panel IOT update doesn’t fail, bricking your house! Also, my panels are usually $200-$400… not $3500 😳
same energy as those specific frost free bibs they used - frost free hose bibs are widely available in Canada & USA, they're not expensive, and they work with standard hoses. But that's not cool enough. I hope no one is seriously more afraid of government spying on you, vs the real threat of the company sticking you with a big bill or nasty terms.
@@josephs2581 yeah, not worried about spying. In fact, it would be nice to have proof that my bill should be $200 cheaper. But there are other ways for that. Like emporia vue.
He did. A while back, he mentioned it. It was like the 2nd or 3rd video with him in them, if I recall correctly. He referred to him as his daughters fiance.
Always looking forward to watching these videos. Great looking SPAN panel. The superb job done on getting labeled and looking neatly is next tier professionalism and quality. Great job to the electrician who installed it. 👏👏👏
I have a question about your electrical backup. You had mentioned about installing solar? Where if you are going to install panels will they be placed? Roof mounted or ground mounted? Grid tied system with battery backup?
So if you don't upgrade the main amps, and are using Span energy management system, and Span goes bust, does the energy management system still work? The Hydro company is ok with this?
Number 1 get an electrician that knows what he is talking about. Number 2 those square D breakers are only listed for installation in square D panels so that is a code violation. Number 3 install a non cloud based electrical panel... Everyone in Cali was probably real sure those smart thermostats were a good idea till they started getting their ACs shut off a while back when they had all the brownouts... Also padlocks on main disconnects are not legal in more and more places it has to do with the fire department being able to cut power in an emergency even though they could pull the meter they want a main disconnecting means. They should rename their company to SCAM not SPAN.
For your Number 2, you are not correct. SPAN has obtained a listing to accept a number of different manufacturer's breakers, while the main structure is Schneider's product. For your Number 3, we don't say Cali. In California you can opt into a Demand Response program with the local utility - it is totally voluntary - to allow your IoT-enabled thermostat to be controlled by a signal from CALISO during times of peak load when reserve power is limited. Opting into these programs can come with certain perks which might appeal to certain individuals. As far as padlocks (maybe that was Number 4) I think you are conflating the requirement for an Emergency Disconnect for first responders with the notion that it is unacceptable to secure the door against unauthorized access. You'll need to cite the section in the NEC which prevents it, but I'm pretty sure it's not there, as this would interfere with NFPA 70E and lock-out-tag-out. The firemen are not bashful about using axes and cable and padlock cutters when they need to. And operating an OCPD is absolutely much safer than pulling a meter, which very well might be under load.
Love the videos guys , Paul should have his own TV show , he has come a long way since the beginning 🙏 great job stud pack , a huge fan from Perth Australia 🇦🇺
In a single word: no. Breakers are a crucial safety device, and adding totally unnecessary technology to them increases the risk of failures. Second, each breaker consumes power for the electronics. That results in heat buildup in the panel and breakers themselves, and guess who pays for the power they use? YOU DO. Finally, there is the added costs, which are considerable. Third, one good power surge will damage them, whereas a standard breaker will survive. Totally not worth it.
The electrician has endured some tough times that required lots of attention; however is burnt injuries occurred, I'm glad he's doing the good job. God blessings on him.
I just had a SPAN panel installed in my house by SunRun Solar with my new Solar system. Works great and I can see all my outlets and how much power they are using.
I guess it doesnt matter to you guys since you got that panel for free but I wont risk spending 5x the cost on a panel when all those features could disappear if they go out of business. Make the API open source and the server self hosting then I'm game even if they still get my usage data which is what they are most interested in anyways
i'd be willing to consider like Span if it was able to let me get the data locally... meaning the thing is plugged into my network so there should be no reason why software like homeassistant or anything else running locally couldn't talk directly to the panel and get the data. Unfortunately so many companies force the API to go through their cloud and don't allow local API control because they want the data and they want the users using their platform, so they force it to work that way. If the Span panel would allow for local control with an API, then i'd be all for it. That would mean even if they went out of business, I could write my own software to talk to the panel or use software like HomeAssistant to talk to it locally. Otherwise, having cloud-only devices in my home is a no-go for me. I've been burned too many times.
Nice to see you both at least turned away when closing the main breaker to protect in case of an arc flash. Our company has a yearly recert on our training for arc flash and COHE. It's great to see this project getting closer and closer to completion, but, it will be bittersweet at the end as we all look forward to the next video. Great work and knowledge we all gain from this build, even if we don't ever do what you have been doing. Learning is always a good thing.
Hey, Paul! I'd love it if you uploaded a short video on the hip procedure/surgery you got. Was it a hip resurfacing or full replacement? How much confidence do you have in the new hip versus before? It doesn't seem like you are limiting ladder work. Any advice for those of us on the cusp of getting the procedure?
I'm not Paul but I can tell you about my replacement. Is "on the cusp" ready to do it, or wondering if you should? No one can tell you when or if, but you'll know from the pain and limits in your life. As for the procedure, get a good surgeon. Mine was a referral from my PCP, and he was excellent. He's done thousands. He does the anterior approach. One of the benefits from that approach is they don't cut any muscles - they pull a couple muscles apart. (Haha, yes.) Which means faster healing. And the old posterior approach - besides cutting muscles, you were more likely to have a problem with dislocation. So with the older approach, you were limited for quite awhile after the surgery - like not bending your hip past 90 degrees. With my anterior surgery, the surgeon had no restrictions for what I could do. It's something you should talk about with your surgeon, but I've been up a ladder since. (I walked up the stairs to the house a couple of hours after the surgery. Slowly.) You'll need physical rehab to get strength and motion back, You won't be 20 again, but I'm much better than I was pre-surgery. Of course this is not at all medical advice, just sharing my experience. Your mileage may vary as they say. And ask about what might go wrong. Hope this helps a little. But ask your doctor.
@@disqusrubbish5467 Appreciate your thoughtful response. I did not know about anterior vs. posterior approaches, so I will definitely bring that up. Paul doing so much work on the ladder and scaffold suggests to me that this procedure has come a long way, which is exciting. Looking forward to reclaiming some mobility. But I've been told not believe everything I see on TH-cam. Maybe after the camera is turned off, Paul is grimacing and walking like me, which is like a penguin. :)
@@joelhoffman7173 You're welcome. I think some of the reluctance about what you see on TH-cam can be from two things - one, maybe people aren't truthful, and two, some of us are so excited we leave out the negatives. So let's talk negatives. It's possible when working in the front to nick a nerve or artery. This is something you also need to talk about with your doctor. It's very rare but possible. I had a numb spot on the outer front of my thigh for months. It was no big deal and is now (11 months in) almost totally gone. The improvement from bad hip to replacement was for me such an improvement I thought if it lasted forever it was a fair trade. Not everyone has that, it's just one of those things. And the front of your thigh will feel so "tight" you'll be stunned. Haha. Between pulling your muscles apart and all the manipulations of your leg to make sure all is going well, this is no surprise. That can take a few weeks to go away. I wouldn't call it painful, but some people might. You will also have pain for a few days because it's surgery. They give you opioids in case you need them, but I got along just fine with Acetaminophen. I also had a nerve block which helps into day two. There can be other issues - leg length for one, but that's why getting a good surgeon is so important. My apologies to the Stud Pack guys for going off topic here, but it's a big decision to make and you can't be the only person here who is wondering about it. Hope it all goes well for you!
Loving your content and build progress as always StudPack! Keep up the fantastic educational content that always has a refreshing take every step of the eay..
I've been following and watching for a while and you have continually surprised me with your craftsmanship and introduction to new products and explanation of there install process and benefits. Keep on truckin it's straight forward and it works for me.😊
Just a suggestion at 16:56 you should have used your left hand so you could stay to the side of the panel. The way you did it you were right in front of the panel. I work with 480v a lot and I try to keep as much of me out of the front of panels when turning on the breakers as possible. Just a good practice for your safety. Great video I watch everyone yall do.
What about proper loading of the panel box? Each item (120V outlet, 240V oven, etc) has a weighted value that you multiply by the breaker size. Doing this balances the load on both legs. Not sure if it’s still required, but when I was growing up, my dad taught me about it.
I still am against anything like that panel that connects to the internet, especially something that requires a smartphone to use. If I can't access it using a regular computer, I don't get it. With all of the data breeches in recent years, I don't trust anything that needs a internet connection to function.
Is it true that Texas is on the 2023 version of the NEC? If that is the case, wouldn't you have to provide GFCI protection to the 240V outlets in the garage as well as the kitchen? I think this was also the case with the 2020 version.
Great video! Very informative and inviting! Thank you for allowing us to visit your build! You guys work hard, and your efforts are apprecitiated by me! Keep the videos coming! Also, have you guys done any videos about concrete repair, in a basement of a home? You often give well rounded advice on how to attack projects, it would be nice to see your perspective on fixing one.
So for this smart panel to be able to prioritize one circuit over another, that means the panel needs to remove power from a breaker without turning it off right? How would they do that, some kind of high current relay? However they do that, are the parts serviceable? It would be a bummer to have a 31 circuit panel because one output died. We see this in automotive fuse boxes that are smart, when an output driver fails you have to replace the whole box. I don't mind smart so much, but I would rather have serviceable.
I dunno about all that smart panel stuff, but the smartest thing I've seen in a while is having lights built right into the panel so you can see everything inside. I also really appreciate neat, tidy wiring, and those guys did a really neat job of getting everything run to the breakers.
11:06 Paul, please put it in perspective for let non-Texas folks. When you say, "all the way down from Dallas," that's a 4-hr drive. Those guys got up way early, packed up equipment and got there early enough to work. That panel is kickass! I bet it requires a subscription. Have you considered maybe getting solar panels after building the house?
I've been looking at this and the Leviton smart breakers to one day upgrade to but both seem to have a more closed ecosystem where as the rest of my house is secure and local with Home Assistant. Why SPAN vs another company?
Hey Stud Pack, I have a question. I noticed you turned on the 200 amp main breaker for the garage panel, and turned on the 200 amp main breaker for the garage breaker panel. I don't remember you actually installing any outlets, lights, or appliances yet. Where we lived in Philadelphia, Pa. the local utility would NOT give you power until you had at least one complete circuit. We satisfied that by installing a ground fault receptacle under the panel, surface mounted with an offset nipple. We were then permitted to switch on the utility power, and energize the Main breaker in our breaker panel. This outlet would usually be used for construction purposes, powering tools, saws, drills, pumps, fans, etc. I know you do NOT have any breakers turned on yet, besides the 200 amp Main in the panel, how did the utility company allow you to do this without having at least one complete circuit wired permanently?
I'm a home automation enthusiast, electrical guru, and complete computer nerd. I can't think of a worse idea than a "smart", internet connected electrical panel. Over the years, the company will fail and the panel's embedded electronics will start to fail. Save yourself the future headache and replace that panel now while you have the access. Put the smart switch stuff on the other end of the wires where it's easier to change when needed.
Wow, very interesting about that electrical panel. I work for that very big safety company that you mentioned in your video and handle wireless regulations. I see a lot of different products come along with wireless being added, but I don't think I have seen an electrical panel come along yet.
I can guarantee that little hasp on the bottom isn't gonna stop anyone from bending that door out from the top corner and accessing the shut off. They need a drop bar lock like a tool box or filing cabinet that incorporates several hooking points along the open edge opposite the hinges. As it is, one big jerk with bare hands and it's bent open!
Watching you pull those breakers off the shelf at ACE... here in Toronto, every big box store store has their breakers behind a locked grill you need to find an employee with the key to buy them. Like a throwback to twenty years ago. Nice work guys.
Yep when they lock up spray paint, wire, cosmetics and bike tube you know your in trouble. It's like that here in US in big cities. Just watch California and that is the way things end up.
Great vid Studs!!! I've always been a big proponent of technology, however...not sure about fixing a problem that didn't exist. I know Jordan is going for all the bells and whistles on the Stud Pack Plantation, and in a way I don't blame him. And of course it always helps when the mfr's are in a donation mood...however...I think there's way too many options for things to go haywire... I would have liked to see a total off grid build for your project, especially with Texas' questionable power distribution. You've got the real estate in the back of your lot for a great ground based solar array, and with the latest storage technology, an electric bill would be a thing of the past. Your garage/apartment build alone is a huge hunk of cubic air space to climate control. Anyways, just had to drop my dos centavos on the matter...Oh yeah...your power draw...your fresh air exchange system...
Great video guys. Paul you are becoming a natural in front of the camera. Jordan great job putting the videos together for all of us to watch. Waiting for the garage door video hopefully coming soon.
I understand the attraction to new technologies like the panel. I still look for new things for my house. I am a retired, 29-year IT professional. When working, I advised my companies to run from proprietary applications. With the panel some of the possibilities are exciting, like seeing which circuit is working the most, and monitoring live consumption. But, at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in. How often will you REALLY watch real-time consumption. And, once you find the circuit(s) with the highest consumption, it’s done. I’m not criticizing. But are they mostly bells and whistles? In my work a major decision point was, is the vendor a “going concern?” If PLANT flops, and it can, you have a high-end, dumb box. For me, $6K vs a $200 metal box? No contest. If you have the money, great, even with the Debbie-downer things I wrote. Again, no criticism. Just thinking out loud. You guys are great and I love your enthusiasm, care, and attention to detail. I continually wish the best for you personally and constructionally (I made up that word🤣). 👍
So I’m in the fortunate position of being able to buy one of these span panels without considering the price but it seems like a horrible cost/benefit purchase. Would studpack actually install this if they had to use their own money? Judging from the meh internet / network infrastructure they put in I would doubt it.
If you’re building an efficient home with the intention to backup the energy with batteries/generators, like we are, it’s a must have we think. Allows easy integration and monitoring.
First, I always enjoy a Stud Pack update on the build. Second, if I knew you needed one, I could have donated a 20-Amp Siemens two-pole breaker. But it is a "legacy" size, meaning it would take two spots on the bus.
I kept wondering if there was a 40 or 42 space SPAN panel available. But then again, they got it free for promotional consideration. Might be crass to ask for something better than was offered?
The panel technology is very impressive and I’m not worried about them having control. Paul highlighted that the utility company can remotely control the meter and they are the ones ultimately in control of your consumption. If you’re going to all that trouble it might be wise to add a generator disconnect to your setup for a future power source.
Now I know that they are compatible, but this is a new install. What's the deal with mixing & matching your service equipment? IDK maybe it's just me, but I would have to have matching brand breakers to the panel brand on a "new" install, just seems more professional to me. Unless maybe if the Square D breakers were B/Oed, IDK? 🤔 🤷🤦♂️
How are these panels for off-grid Solar installations It would also be great if there was Home Assistant or other Open Source management/monitoring integration
Just FYI, the energy lost to spinning the dial in an old school meter is tiny. I think they use sapphire bearings like a watch. The main reason they want to use smart meters is that it minimizes the manpower required to drive around and check your usage. Some require a person to drive slowly through a neighborhood, and a data collection module in the truck will collect usage for the entire street in a few minutes. Others have a network hub located on a streetlight or pole, and they collect usage within some radius, then use a cellular network to submit the whole neighborhood back to home station.
What about a house or home surge protector does span provide this as a built-in option or will you guys be adding one separately as an add on to each panel?
Consider an add-on electrical monitoring product. It will not control your power. It will tell you your usage per circuit. It can be removed at any time.
$3500 for a panel that I can tell not to turn the oven on so I can charge my car?! No thank you. I’ll buy a $300 panel all day. There’s a reason why they’ve been around for 100 years with out change
So where is the main disconnect so you can feed a stand alone generator into your house. Can’t remember the name of the devise but it essentially locks out the grid if your powering your house with a jenny
From thier FAQ: "Today, SPAN does not have an open API for local control."
This needs to be added before I'd consider installing a SPAN panel. It's a cool idea to monitor, and manage energy usage, but dependence on the cloud is too big of an issue, even if SPAN's current leadership is benevelant. And it would help deter issues like the one Chamberlain made for themselves with their garage door openers.
100%. Definitely not relying on a closed system controlled by a company.
The government has a way of getting access to every companies data. This would be no different. Before you think what could they do with this info? Ask farmers in new Zealand who pay a cow flatulence tax
Imagine you install this so you can have 200A loads on 100A service. Then the API dies. Now what? Your panel will be in violation of code right?
Hopefully this will work with SmartThings/Home Assistant/Homebridge soon.
Just wanna give a little addendum, here. That is their *official* response, but some people working on Home Assistant made a plugin that was (or is) able to connect with SPAN for remote control. It at one point had involved some sort of door-switch authentication to prove you're really the one accessing it remotely, or something like that...
I just moved into my newly constructed house in Northern Idaho and I have to tell you, all I kept thinking about through this whole build is would this pass the "STUD PACK" inspection? I also binged watched all your videos BEFORE we went through the 1 yr building process and you taught me so many things that when it came to what we wanted in our build I had a list of 62 questions that I actually floored the builder because he's NEVER had a 63 yr old woman ask questions like that. I learned from watching every single video you put out. Now I wish I could have had you build my home to the detail you all put in the Dream Garage. You do fantastic work and you should be proud.
Rather than the panel becoming a 'dumb panel' if SPAN goes out of business, SPAN should make the app/panel have local control by default. This would be a solution to the people that are concerned about others controlling their panel. This would also mean that once you have the panel you no longer need SPAN to be in business to see/control it with the app. And if you think they couldn't do it for some reason, local control is how a lot of devices in the smart home segment are controlled. Only the products that people should stay away from force cloud integration to control the product locally.
Absolutely just HomeKit certification would resolve most of the cloud dependency, let alone an actually open API. Without an open API you're buying a shiny appliance you have no actual ownership of.
Part of their business model will be selling usage data. Even if somehow it's not in their EULA today, that can be modified anytime for any reason, like a sale to a new owner that has no moral or ethical considerations.
It's not about paranoia or conspiracies, you're putting trust in a corporation, which is incapable of morality. Even if someone there today is a great person that can control the greed and misuse, they won't be around forever.
Some sort of escrow deal to open the local api as part of the wind-down, if the company closes. Like Google did with the stadia game controller, last firmware upgrade they pushed turned it into a generic bluetooth game controller.
@@andrejstefanovski Looked up their privacy policy. Selling data to advertisers is already in their EULA.
They don't care about our privacy, they care about money ...
@@3nertiaspan or this channel ? Lol both
Stud Pack needs to watch more Louis Rossman and see how often these companies will change the EULA on something you already bought and force you to agree to new terms you didn't want to keep using the hardware you already paid for. Call me a cowboy, but we need to stop allowing these cloud services into our homes. Smart home stuff is great, and the hardware for this panel looks really cool, but it should be local, talking to a home assistant server in your media closet where only you control it and your data stays private.
Yup. Agree to arbitration or we shut off your power
Huge Privacy mistake
😂 sorry to disappoint y’all… but hold on to your cowboy hats, the next videos are going to make you more crazy. They already said they are building a fully smart and automated house 😅
Yup, I have all the power monitoring that this SPAN panel has, but it's all hardware I control. I installed loop style current sensors on each circuit, using an Emporia Vue 2 ($165), flashed with esphome (open source firmwaere) and feed it all to my Home Assistant install that does the monitoring, graphing and smarts. Don't have individual circuit on/off capability, but the rest of it is there, if not quite as pretty.
Absolutely agree, 100%!!!
Hey StudPack I saw that you donated to Arlo's retirement on the Perkins Brothers Builders channel! Thanks for supporting him! I sent a few dollars his way also! Great community we have on TH-cam of builders!!
After 40 years as a carpenter Arlo wasn’t able to afford retirement? Or did I read that wrong?
@@Ogilla The PBB are doing it as a suprise for him, a gift! Watch the last episode from today! This was his last house he was working on and is retiring! Great guy!
@Ogilla if you didn't learn anything from the man don't give him any money, but he's certainly not getting TH-cam money. It's an easy way to show the man some respect for his shared knowledge. Now go run along to being negative in a different comment section
Arlo is the man!
@@_JamesBrown I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion with my comment lol. I’m a huge fan of Arlo and I’m in awe of his knowledge, attention to details and creativity. He was my favorite from the Perkin’s crew.
I just didn’t understand why people were giving him money for his retirement, since I haven’t had the chance to watch PBB’s latest video.
Companies like SPAN can and often do pull a Darth Vader "I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further" rug pull by changing the ToS, forcing you to make a choice: Do you want to turn your smart panel into an exorbitantly expensive fancy looking dumb panel, or agree to the new ToS that violates your privacy and sells you out to the new energy tzar that fines you for running your AC too much.
It doesn't matter what the ToS says or what agreements they do or don't have with third parties *today* if all of these things can change in the future when the VCs get bored and want their 10x payout. YOU are the collateral for the big VC loans.
And don't think it will be this in your face, they'll boil you slowly.
What do they care, they got their panel for free 😏
@@3nertia eexactly...not costeffective
lol - the evil overlords can drop your electricity at the meter if they want
@3nertia they wouldn't pay for directional boring to bury the power lines, but a 3500 panel was in the budget. Could have gotten by with one 1/5 the cost.
@wojtek-33 if they were not getting it for free they wouldn't be using it. Half the decision in a building are aesthetic. That panel is silly. None of these youtube builders would be using them if they were not being given them for free.
As a someone who as spent years in the cyber security industry I have many questions. First it connects both though LAN and WiFi so any device on that local network could in theory shutoff/control your power. (Yes this is a problem with the smart meters too however its much more likely for an compromise to occur on your local network with so many IOT devices).
Second: what happens when they get new panels and the current panel no longer gets security updates. Going bsck to my previous point if the company runs out of business that actually poses a significant number of risks to not just your smart panel but all of them.
Third: not having local API access is more of a personal issue I have with it especially since tools like Home Assistant would be a perfect addon to a panel like this.
Lastly your point on everyone already having your data. Yes this is partly true. However, just because a lot of your personal information is for sale online doesnt mean we should be adding to it. Its also worth noting that almost every company is trying to switch to a subscription model for everything so there is no guarantee that the current state is going to remain.
I could go on. But I thinj my point is made. While its a very cool technology which definitely could save you money in the long term. Understand what thoses risks are.
PS
If you are going to be installing a large number of IOT devices. Setting up a separate VLAN/wireless network specially for then would be strongly recommended.
Out of curiosity, how does one set up a separate VLAN/wireless network (assuming they stick with a single ISP)?
@@Chevronsam You need to dig into your router's settings but you can usually set up a guest network or a VPN!
Smart meters are not on WiFi. They’re on their on radio frequency or power line carrier (maybe). WiFi devices in a house cannot control the meter and they can’t be hacked from outside through your WiFi. But, I agree that if the panel is on WiFi there is the potential for control by other devices on the WiFi (or from hacking).
@@3nertia a vlan is not a guest network or vpn. its a virtual local area network. Your network infrastructure needs to have support for vlans. The idea being you can segment the physical network into logical parts and then control communication between them.
@@Chevronsam Invest in a smart switch.
Also, the "Poor man's IOT network" is that most all in one routers have a guest network setting built in that has limited access. Most reputable router brands allow guest networks to talk to the internet, but not any device on your main network.
Hope that helps!
Ask Span how to handle when you sell a house with a span panel... How do you know the old owner loses access to the smart panel? Do they let you to have multiple phones access the data? Can you make a home assistant integration for Span?
I am also wondering this
Ok, I'll be that guy to say it... Don't trivialize the privacy and control aspects of "smart" things too much. It's fun to kid about "Big Brother", but each of us gives up more and more of our control and autonomy every day with various devices. We should always be thinking of what every product is capable of, now and in the foreseeable future. For instance, one of the new trends is allowing your EV car or truck to connect to your "smarthome" so the home panel can can take the lower cost battery power from it in the middle of the day when utility rates are at their highest, then charge it back up overnight at a lower cost. Might sound good but once you realize it also means the utility company can take your battery power as THEY see fit (brownnouts, blackouts, at will...) you have potential new concerns to think over.
As everything becomes more interconnected, monitored, and our personal data gets analyzed and sold, we should at least be aware of what ramifications could come from that. We are always giving up a part of us in exchange for something, usually a convenience. Make sure you know what a new product is doing behind the scenes, what it's capabilities are now, and what potential the product has for potentially more "nefarious" things in the future. When any company promises to keep your data safe and said product secure, realize the company could be acquired tomorrow (or that division spun off and sold) to a much larger firm that may have a very different plan for what your data or panel should and shouldn't do. Be diligent in your discovery of what road you're potentially going down with every new connected product and you will be a better informed person for choosing or avoiding it. Ignorance may be bliss, but caveat emptor is your best approach.
Well said.
Yeah, most power companies want to take away power and make people angry. Brilliant business plan.
My #1 rule for IoT is: It's an InTRAnet of Things.
- Cloud services can be OK depending on the data that goes there, but I'll have nothing that *requires* a cloud service.
- All smart devices live on a VLAN with no access to the Internet.
Before I commented I went ahead and watch the full video just to make sure I didn't miss something that addresses my concerns. My concern is that this panel is in fact attached to a cloud service on the internet where hacks happen very often. The fact thats this panel does not allow or restrict functions such as turning on and off power to local only is crazy to me. And so why is that you may ask? To put it simply I would never ever ever put trust into a company to manage a cloud service that allows access to control my power, sure power companies have this type of access (sorta) however I do believe them to be more secure as they do not talk over the internet but under their own frequency which makes them at least somewhat more resistant to say someone in another country sitting at their computer. Overall I think this is quite dangerous in general, its one thing if you decide to do that yourself its another when the company actively requires it. Play stupid games win stupid prizes... I'd go deeper but I've already rewrote this comment like 3 times to simplify a bit.
Perfect timing! Wife is watching 90 day fiancé and I needed something better!!!
Geez dude, watching paint dry is better than 90 Day Fiancé!! 😂
Bro I don't envy you!
Not hard
She is watching 90 day fiance?
wow, sorry to hear that.
have you already spoken to your divorce attorney? i would speed that process up if i was you.
It's been said, *"The secret to a long marriage is separate bathrooms!"* It's probably time to add *Media options!*
Thank you, Jordan, for getting these videos out to us as you do. I know how much work it is and I for one really appreciate your diligence and efforts!! Cheers man!!
I'm so glad you're choosing to hard-wire the internet connection to that thing. So many "smart homes" are just a bunch of wifi connected devices and once you have enough they start really bogging each other down. If it's a permanent installation it should be hard-wired just like y'all did here!
Span isn't for me; I like local data storage and circuit breaker level control is a bit limiting. My system stores data every 5 seconds and lets me work with it in different ways to get information beyond just energy use. (As an example-- how many times did the refrigerator compressor start and how many hours did it run each day. The answer told me there was a problem with the fridge and that let me save ~3kWh/day.)
My bigger issue with cloud services is that they can change the deal anytime they want, including charging a monthly fee for the smart functions.
NEVER use an off-site server not directly under your control manage anything in your home if at all possible. The company could go out of business, change their product support, or anything you can think of.
@@michael-1382 The end of the video doesn't address what problems @u8qu1tis was talking about.
Span could introduce a monthly fee for all their smart features which more companies than I can count have done when those features were free originally.
If you dont like their new fees then you are left with a dumb panel, if they go out of business you are left with a dumb panel, not a big deal for Stud Pack since they got the panel for free but I would have a problem with them turning my $4k panel into a $600 panel over night.
Do you suggest the regular joe should go start rolling their own crypto too? Better yet, everyone should just build their own internet in case the internet goes down
@@grinchyface Great ideas! Those of us that are smart enough to do that should! ;)
@@instanoodlesand when that happens, they can just turn off the smart part and have an overpriced dumb panel they didn’t pay for.
@@instanoodles sure that could happen, but who's to say it won't and those panels are more efficient which could save you in the long run anyways
I went back and forth between Leviton and Span. I decided that a smart breaker (while more expensive upfront) was better than a smart backbone. Much easier to change a breaker than a whole panel should technology change. Plus Leviton has been around a LOT longer!
Heard that Leviton GFCI & AFCI circuit breakers are all made in cheating lack of quality control communist china. I go way out of my way to NEVER purchase or use any tools, safety & test equipment & electrical products from nogoodnic china.
I'm old school and from previous experiences good luck getting tech support, replacement boards or even chips on any electronics over ten years old. Hard to throw away a few $10, O00 VFD drives that were only 8 years old because vendor could no longer get parts to build or repair boards. Of course the new drives now have heavy wires that can only enter thru the bottom of drive while old drives had the conduits entering top of drives making you spend over halve a day to install a trough and splice ever wire. Had the same problem with $1,000 to $15,000 lightning / dimming controls.
Thats why you only get ABB drives. Solid product and has longevity in the industry.
@EmerikLoWorjef nestar
Worked with halve a dozen VFD companies and found ABB tech support to be the absolute worst. On one job the contractor lost or throw away the manuals for over 200 ABB drives. It took prima Donna ABB 5 emails & two weeks to finally tell me how to find the DC Buss voltage on 480 volt 6 & 18 pulse drives. When I called them asking if a 125 HP maybe 6' wife double door 18 pulse drives had a thermostat to control the cooling fans like far easy to deal with Danfoss drives had. They asked me several times why I wanted to know this. Da. These ABB drives were in an air conditioned space these chiller pumps did not run all winter but expensive fan ran 24/7. Company left drives Power on because once a week they would run them for a few minutes to check seals and make sure they worked.
@@JohnThomas-lq5qp I can get a manual in about 5 minutes on their website. As far as tech support, I have not had to deal with them personally. I have a contact that lives and breathes ABB. He has literally walked me through parameter changes from memory.
Paul you are a #1 interviewer and spokes person. Sure it takes a few takes some times, but you explain things so well and relaxed. It's a pleasure. Your a diamond in the industry of home reno shows and U Tube presenters and influencers. You could probably demand a premium for marketing the sponcors products. Great episode it was my pleasure. Oh and Jordan big shout out to you for the behind the scenes editing that makes it all look and sound so professional. 5 **** guys all the way. No wonder that electrician kept calling you Sir.
I love it when Paul talks to tradespeople. He asks great questions and has an awesome rapport. Knows how to ask basic questions that lead to very informative answers.
Questions:
1) Span takes which kind of breaker? You picked up Square D 20 amp 2P at Ace. The others were Eaton. Do they accept all brand of breakers?
2) Can Span do plug on neutral breakers?
3) Is the energy management software a replacement for a load controller to prevent demand spikes?
4) Does Span have any built-in surge suppression? If so, is it replaceable?
Leviton does all of this
Thanks for going over the electrical! It's my favorite for sure. I like the concept of the span panel, and hope to see this reviewed several years down the line. I'm still not sold on it being an EMS and relying on that to protect your electrical panel from overloading. I'm not sold on the cost either, a traditional Square D panel and the cost of a residential EMS panel is far cheaper than a Span panel. I guess you have to decide if the "smart" features are truly worth the extra couple thousand dollars.
For a lot of panels, you can only plug tandem/quad breakers into specific slots (usually the lower portion of the panel). A bit of pre-planning will make the process of converting to tandems easier. Ex: In the case you mentioned, if you had to move some circuits to a tandem, moving them toward their entry location is easier then moving them away from the entry unless you included a service loop. Also, moving the high current wires are MUCH more difficult. It is way easier to move the 15/20A single phase lines.
I love my leviton panels I have. Same price as other panels and has full smart capabilities. I can't imagine how much that span panel costs. I added emporium CT sensors on my wires and it works awesome. Levitons smart breakers are quite expensive and aren't real time reporting from what I read.
Leviton panels was 200. 50 per arc fault GFCI breakers so that was not cheap but much less than what you said the span cost.
Just wondering if you use a double breaker if the panel will still be able to differentiate the usage from each pole or will it have to group together the usage?
You tell the panel which spaces are grouped together in the app when you label the circuits.
Great video. Thanks for the heads up about the 48 breaker panel coming. I’ve been waiting for that
As an International Industrial EE this is what I love to see. I love to see and look on TH-cam for electrical installations, it is so relaxing to see work being done on panels. Specially when every country have their own way of doing stuff: EU vs US vs Asia.
Nice work being done in your son's house Paul, those electricians did a crack of a clean job with the connections, no rats nests as I unfortunately commonly see most of the times.
Keep up the good work, I'm loving this series as I said before.
$3500 for an electrical panel with a fragile glass lid? I can get a conventional panel for 1/10th of that. Or even less if I buy a like new or new one on Facebook marketplace. I don't care if it looks utilitarian. It's a breaker panel and is tucked away in a discreet location anyway. As to its ability to track the usage of all circuits and help you minimize electrical usage? Other than being a Fitbit for your house, not buying it. I already know what the big drivers are for my electrical usage. And I already do what I can to minimize consumption on those circuits and for all the smaller circuits as well {replace incandescent/fluorescent with LED, super-insulate and seal the house, use energy efficient appliances, keep my smart thermostat at reasonable temps in the winter and summer etc}. As to tracking smaller circuits, I'm not buying I could "save a bundle" by doing that. I use electricity where and when I need it. I don't leave things turned on or plugged in unnecessarily. And I don't need a house Fitbit device to remind me that I have been leaving things on or plugged in unnecessarily. I have the old fashioned "smarts" that I've been using my whole life - it's called "common sense."
Here's the reality. Looks like a young guy with money wanted the whiz bang look in his new giant home chock full of very non-energy efficient features. Hooking up a massive 400A electrical service while claiming to want to save energy and track every microwatt. Forest through the trees.
The channel was sponsored by Span who provided their expensive product for free in exchange for a positive infomercial {and possibly more money as an advertising supplement}. It has embedded modern technology {circuits inside it} to communicate with your current cellphone or wifi network. As it ages and as your cellphone/network technology evolves and changes - WHICH IT WILL - eventually the circuitry and/or software inside the Span breaker panel will become obsolete. As all computerized high technology does at an increasingly rapid pace. Obsolete not in the sense the circuitry will break and stop working {although that's certainly possible too}, obsolete in that its old communication protocol will no longer be compatible with whatever device or embedded Elon brain chip you'll eventually be using. And guess what time it is then? Either upgrade the circuitry and software - if that's even possible - or your panel reverts to a conventional dumb panel. A $3500 dumb panel, that is. Which in itself is pretty dumb, isn't it?
My current breaker box is 30 years old and still works perfectly. I can also buy all parts and breakers I need to maintain it. If I pay $3500 for a Span box, will it last 30 years? Will all the parts, software updates and functionality be made available by Span in that same timeframe? Hmmm, that's like asking if your cellphone will last 30 years. And we all know the answer to that question...K.I.S.S.
As a software developer I hate how even the panel has to be “smart”.
Nothing like hoping that your panel IOT update doesn’t fail, bricking your house!
Also, my panels are usually $200-$400… not $3500 😳
Inventing useless shit to make rich and/or gullible people spend is some people’s business. This is a perfect example.
Well, theirs was likely free ...
@@Ogilla Welcome to capitalism!
same energy as those specific frost free bibs they used - frost free hose bibs are widely available in Canada & USA, they're not expensive, and they work with standard hoses. But that's not cool enough.
I hope no one is seriously more afraid of government spying on you, vs the real threat of the company sticking you with a big bill or nasty terms.
@@josephs2581 yeah, not worried about spying. In fact, it would be nice to have proof that my bill should be $200 cheaper.
But there are other ways for that. Like emporia vue.
real concerns -- number 1 -- have that panel on its own VLAN that does not talk to the rest of your network
Appreciate the video work improvements, bells, and whistles over the years--especially over the span of this whole garage build season.
Didn't know he was your son in law that's cool man showing the family business like a father should
Glad it wasn't just me. I thought maybe I missed that somewhere
He did. A while back, he mentioned it. It was like the 2nd or 3rd video with him in them, if I recall correctly. He referred to him as his daughters fiance.
Jordan isn't his son?
@@MM-fe9mzHe means Rad
@@MM-fe9mzno it’s his daughter
Always looking forward to watching these videos. Great looking SPAN panel. The superb job done on getting labeled and looking neatly is next tier professionalism and quality. Great job to the electrician who installed it. 👏👏👏
I have a question about your electrical backup. You had mentioned about installing solar? Where if you are going to install panels will they be placed? Roof mounted or ground mounted? Grid tied system with battery backup?
So if you don't upgrade the main amps, and are using Span energy management system, and Span goes bust, does the energy management system still work? The Hydro company is ok with this?
Number 1 get an electrician that knows what he is talking about. Number 2 those square D breakers are only listed for installation in square D panels so that is a code violation. Number 3 install a non cloud based electrical panel... Everyone in Cali was probably real sure those smart thermostats were a good idea till they started getting their ACs shut off a while back when they had all the brownouts... Also padlocks on main disconnects are not legal in more and more places it has to do with the fire department being able to cut power in an emergency even though they could pull the meter they want a main disconnecting means. They should rename their company to SCAM not SPAN.
For your Number 2, you are not correct. SPAN has obtained a listing to accept a number of different manufacturer's breakers, while the main structure is Schneider's product.
For your Number 3, we don't say Cali. In California you can opt into a Demand Response program with the local utility - it is totally voluntary - to allow your IoT-enabled thermostat to be controlled by a signal from CALISO during times of peak load when reserve power is limited. Opting into these programs can come with certain perks which might appeal to certain individuals.
As far as padlocks (maybe that was Number 4) I think you are conflating the requirement for an Emergency Disconnect for first responders with the notion that it is unacceptable to secure the door against unauthorized access. You'll need to cite the section in the NEC which prevents it, but I'm pretty sure it's not there, as this would interfere with NFPA 70E and lock-out-tag-out. The firemen are not bashful about using axes and cable and padlock cutters when they need to. And operating an OCPD is absolutely much safer than pulling a meter, which very well might be under load.
My fire company is okay with cutting locks off to cut the main breaker.
Love the videos guys , Paul should have his own TV show , he has come a long way since the beginning 🙏 great job stud pack , a huge fan from Perth Australia 🇦🇺
In a single word: no. Breakers are a crucial safety device, and adding totally unnecessary technology to them increases the risk of failures. Second, each breaker consumes power for the electronics. That results in heat buildup in the panel and breakers themselves, and guess who pays for the power they use? YOU DO. Finally, there is the added costs, which are considerable. Third, one good power surge will damage them, whereas a standard breaker will survive.
Totally not worth it.
I swear, I respond faster to notifications that a new Stud Pack vid is ready than I do for my own family!
Ha ha me too!
Sad
Patience, grasshopper
Does Span (and/or code) allow you to mix breakers? You have Eaton and SquareD in the same panel. Isn't that normally a big no no?
Why mix Eaton breakers in a Square D panel?
Its against code to have mixed breakers in my area - i thought the same thing
@@LT_AndyTylerBR style supported by numerous brands
Love to see you guys donated to Arlo at Perkins! Great builder community on TH-cam! Keep up the good work boys!
The electrician has endured some tough times that required lots of attention; however is burnt injuries occurred, I'm glad he's doing the good job. God blessings on him.
I just had a SPAN panel installed in my house by SunRun Solar with my new Solar system. Works great and I can see all my outlets and how much power they are using.
if its not already, it should be on its own vlan for security purposes.
How secure is it from being hacked?
I guess it doesnt matter to you guys since you got that panel for free but I wont risk spending 5x the cost on a panel when all those features could disappear if they go out of business.
Make the API open source and the server self hosting then I'm game even if they still get my usage data which is what they are most interested in anyways
Not 5 times, more like 17 times the cost
i'd be willing to consider like Span if it was able to let me get the data locally... meaning the thing is plugged into my network so there should be no reason why software like homeassistant or anything else running locally couldn't talk directly to the panel and get the data. Unfortunately so many companies force the API to go through their cloud and don't allow local API control because they want the data and they want the users using their platform, so they force it to work that way. If the Span panel would allow for local control with an API, then i'd be all for it. That would mean even if they went out of business, I could write my own software to talk to the panel or use software like HomeAssistant to talk to it locally. Otherwise, having cloud-only devices in my home is a no-go for me. I've been burned too many times.
Nice to see you both at least turned away when closing the main breaker to protect in case of an arc flash. Our company has a yearly recert on our training for arc flash and COHE.
It's great to see this project getting closer and closer to completion, but, it will be bittersweet at the end as we all look forward to the next video. Great work and knowledge we all gain from this build, even if we don't ever do what you have been doing. Learning is always a good thing.
Hey, Paul! I'd love it if you uploaded a short video on the hip procedure/surgery you got. Was it a hip resurfacing or full replacement? How much confidence do you have in the new hip versus before? It doesn't seem like you are limiting ladder work. Any advice for those of us on the cusp of getting the procedure?
I'm not Paul but I can tell you about my replacement. Is "on the cusp" ready to do it, or wondering if you should? No one can tell you when or if, but you'll know from the pain and limits in your life.
As for the procedure, get a good surgeon. Mine was a referral from my PCP, and he was excellent. He's done thousands. He does the anterior approach. One of the benefits from that approach is they don't cut any muscles - they pull a couple muscles apart. (Haha, yes.) Which means faster healing. And the old posterior approach - besides cutting muscles, you were more likely to have a problem with dislocation. So with the older approach, you were limited for quite awhile after the surgery - like not bending your hip past 90 degrees. With my anterior surgery, the surgeon had no restrictions for what I could do. It's something you should talk about with your surgeon, but I've been up a ladder since. (I walked up the stairs to the house a couple of hours after the surgery. Slowly.) You'll need physical rehab to get strength and motion back, You won't be 20 again, but I'm much better than I was pre-surgery.
Of course this is not at all medical advice, just sharing my experience. Your mileage may vary as they say. And ask about what might go wrong. Hope this helps a little. But ask your doctor.
@@disqusrubbish5467 Appreciate your thoughtful response. I did not know about anterior vs. posterior approaches, so I will definitely bring that up. Paul doing so much work on the ladder and scaffold suggests to me that this procedure has come a long way, which is exciting. Looking forward to reclaiming some mobility. But I've been told not believe everything I see on TH-cam. Maybe after the camera is turned off, Paul is grimacing and walking like me, which is like a penguin. :)
@@joelhoffman7173 You're welcome. I think some of the reluctance about what you see on TH-cam can be from two things - one, maybe people aren't truthful, and two, some of us are so excited we leave out the negatives. So let's talk negatives. It's possible when working in the front to nick a nerve or artery. This is something you also need to talk about with your doctor. It's very rare but possible. I had a numb spot on the outer front of my thigh for months. It was no big deal and is now (11 months in) almost totally gone. The improvement from bad hip to replacement was for me such an improvement I thought if it lasted forever it was a fair trade. Not everyone has that, it's just one of those things. And the front of your thigh will feel so "tight" you'll be stunned. Haha. Between pulling your muscles apart and all the manipulations of your leg to make sure all is going well, this is no surprise. That can take a few weeks to go away. I wouldn't call it painful, but some people might. You will also have pain for a few days because it's surgery. They give you opioids in case you need them, but I got along just fine with Acetaminophen. I also had a nerve block which helps into day two.
There can be other issues - leg length for one, but that's why getting a good surgeon is so important.
My apologies to the Stud Pack guys for going off topic here, but it's a big decision to make and you can't be the only person here who is wondering about it.
Hope it all goes well for you!
The electricians did a beautiful job on the panel -- this level of care and attention to detail are rare in my experience.
Loving your content and build progress as always StudPack! Keep up the fantastic educational content that always has a refreshing take every step of the eay..
You guys are absolute studs :D
Loving the eyecandy, Loving the builds, Loving the videos, I can't wait to see the main house
So does Texas code not require a surge protector? Or is that built into this panel?
I've been following and watching for a while and you have continually surprised me with your craftsmanship and introduction to new products and explanation of there install process and benefits.
Keep on truckin it's straight forward and it works for me.😊
Just a suggestion at 16:56 you should have used your left hand so you could stay to the side of the panel. The way you did it you were right in front of the panel. I work with 480v a lot and I try to keep as much of me out of the front of panels when turning on the breakers as possible. Just a good practice for your safety. Great video I watch everyone yall do.
What about proper loading of the panel box? Each item (120V outlet, 240V oven, etc) has a weighted value that you multiply by the breaker size. Doing this balances the load on both legs. Not sure if it’s still required, but when I was growing up, my dad taught me about it.
I still am against anything like that panel that connects to the internet, especially something that requires a smartphone to use. If I can't access it using a regular computer, I don't get it. With all of the data breeches in recent years, I don't trust anything that needs a internet connection to function.
Is it true that Texas is on the 2023 version of the NEC? If that is the case, wouldn't you have to provide GFCI protection to the 240V outlets in the garage as well as the kitchen? I think this was also the case with the 2020 version.
True post, though many inspectors are allowing the changes to come slower per inspection
Great video! Very informative and inviting! Thank you for allowing us to visit your build! You guys work hard, and your efforts are apprecitiated by me! Keep the videos coming! Also, have you guys done any videos about concrete repair, in a basement of a home? You often give well rounded advice on how to attack projects, it would be nice to see your perspective on fixing one.
as a fiber technician, im EXCITED for the fiber install video lmao
Ha! I'm typing this from a typewriter while watching the video on a newspaper! Can't get me, government!
So for this smart panel to be able to prioritize one circuit over another, that means the panel needs to remove power from a breaker without turning it off right? How would they do that, some kind of high current relay? However they do that, are the parts serviceable? It would be a bummer to have a 31 circuit panel because one output died. We see this in automotive fuse boxes that are smart, when an output driver fails you have to replace the whole box. I don't mind smart so much, but I would rather have serviceable.
I dunno about all that smart panel stuff, but the smartest thing I've seen in a while is having lights built right into the panel so you can see everything inside.
I also really appreciate neat, tidy wiring, and those guys did a really neat job of getting everything run to the breakers.
I always learn something new from you guys every time. Love it!
Sweet panel. Does it include whole house surge suppression? or should you be adding that?
Does the panel have a built in surge suppressor, or did you put one in the box?
Is it me or are you mixing sq d homeline with eaton
11:06 Paul, please put it in perspective for let non-Texas folks. When you say, "all the way down from Dallas," that's a 4-hr drive. Those guys got up way early, packed up equipment and got there early enough to work.
That panel is kickass! I bet it requires a subscription.
Have you considered maybe getting solar panels after building the house?
I've been looking at this and the Leviton smart breakers to one day upgrade to but both seem to have a more closed ecosystem where as the rest of my house is secure and local with Home Assistant. Why SPAN vs another company?
Hey Stud Pack, I have a question. I noticed you turned on the 200 amp main breaker for the garage panel, and turned on the 200 amp main breaker for the garage breaker panel. I don't remember you actually installing any outlets, lights, or appliances yet. Where we lived in Philadelphia, Pa. the local utility would NOT give you power until you had at least one complete circuit. We satisfied that by installing a ground fault receptacle under the panel, surface mounted with an offset nipple. We were then permitted to switch on the utility power, and energize the Main breaker in our breaker panel. This outlet would usually be used for construction purposes, powering tools, saws, drills, pumps, fans, etc. I know you do NOT have any breakers turned on yet, besides the 200 amp Main in the panel, how did the utility company allow you to do this without having at least one complete circuit wired permanently?
They said something was on. So maybe they do have a completed circuit.
Joel sold these dudes on that panel😂 gotta love these channels. Great work. Slick setup.
If it weren't for youtubers being sponsored with this stuff, they'd only be installed in $10M homes
I'm a home automation enthusiast, electrical guru, and complete computer nerd. I can't think of a worse idea than a "smart", internet connected electrical panel. Over the years, the company will fail and the panel's embedded electronics will start to fail.
Save yourself the future headache and replace that panel now while you have the access.
Put the smart switch stuff on the other end of the wires where it's easier to change when needed.
Leviton solves this with there panels. The best ❤
Wow, very interesting about that electrical panel. I work for that very big safety company that you mentioned in your video and handle wireless regulations. I see a lot of different products come along with wireless being added, but I don't think I have seen an electrical panel come along yet.
I can guarantee that little hasp on the bottom isn't gonna stop anyone from bending that door out from the top corner and accessing the shut off. They need a drop bar lock like a tool box or filing cabinet that incorporates several hooking points along the open edge opposite the hinges. As it is, one big jerk with bare hands and it's bent open!
Watching you pull those breakers off the shelf at ACE... here in Toronto, every big box store store has their breakers behind a locked grill you need to find an employee with the key to buy them. Like a throwback to twenty years ago. Nice work guys.
Yep when they lock up spray paint, wire, cosmetics and bike tube you know your in trouble. It's like that here in US in big cities. Just watch California and that is the way things end up.
Great vid Studs!!! I've always been a big proponent of technology, however...not sure about fixing a problem that didn't exist. I know Jordan is going for all the bells and whistles on the Stud Pack Plantation, and in a way I don't blame him. And of course it always helps when the mfr's are in a donation mood...however...I think there's way too many options for things to go haywire...
I would have liked to see a total off grid build for your project, especially with Texas' questionable power distribution. You've got the real estate in the back of your lot for a great ground based solar array, and with the latest storage technology, an electric bill would be a thing of the past. Your garage/apartment build alone is a huge hunk of cubic air space to climate control.
Anyways, just had to drop my dos centavos on the matter...Oh yeah...your power draw...your fresh air exchange system...
Great video guys. Paul you are becoming a natural in front of the camera. Jordan great job putting the videos together for all of us to watch. Waiting for the garage door video hopefully coming soon.
This man's a natural. I always forget I'm not watching a This Old House episode. Very easy watching and good information!
I understand the attraction to new technologies like the panel. I still look for new things for my house. I am a retired, 29-year IT professional. When working, I advised my companies to run from proprietary applications. With the panel some of the possibilities are exciting, like seeing which circuit is working the most, and monitoring live consumption. But, at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in. How often will you REALLY watch real-time consumption. And, once you find the circuit(s) with the highest consumption, it’s done. I’m not criticizing. But are they mostly bells and whistles? In my work a major decision point was, is the vendor a “going concern?” If PLANT flops, and it can, you have a high-end, dumb box. For me, $6K vs a $200 metal box? No contest. If you have the money, great, even with the Debbie-downer things I wrote.
Again, no criticism. Just thinking out loud. You guys are great and I love your enthusiasm, care, and attention to detail. I continually wish the best for you personally and constructionally (I made up that word🤣). 👍
So I’m in the fortunate position of being able to buy one of these span panels without considering the price but it seems like a horrible cost/benefit purchase. Would studpack actually install this if they had to use their own money? Judging from the meh internet / network infrastructure they put in I would doubt it.
If you’re building an efficient home with the intention to backup the energy with batteries/generators, like we are, it’s a must have we think. Allows easy integration and monitoring.
Very interesting panel. Nice work guys!
cinematography is so good on this. Great seeing skills grow as the house does
Maaaaaaan That circuit control Sounds Nice!!!!
First, I always enjoy a Stud Pack update on the build. Second, if I knew you needed one, I could have donated a 20-Amp Siemens two-pole breaker. But it is a "legacy" size, meaning it would take two spots on the bus.
That panel is crammed! I always thought it was a good practice to have 10% slots available for spares, and 30% for future expansion.
I kept wondering if there was a 40 or 42 space SPAN panel available. But then again, they got it free for promotional consideration. Might be crass to ask for something better than was offered?
The larger panel doesn’t exist yet.
The panel technology is very impressive and I’m not worried about them having control. Paul highlighted that the utility company can remotely control the meter and they are the ones ultimately in control of your consumption. If you’re going to all that trouble it might be wise to add a generator disconnect to your setup for a future power source.
I’m pretty sure they’re doing some solar too.
What about surge protection? I always recommended installing a whole house surge protector when installing a new panel.
That panel is…..Spantastic!
Now I know that they are compatible, but this is a new install. What's the deal with mixing & matching your service equipment? IDK maybe it's just me, but I would have to have matching brand breakers to the panel brand on a "new" install, just seems more professional to me. Unless maybe if the Square D breakers were B/Oed, IDK? 🤔 🤷🤦♂️
How do you know what Amp rating a panel is ? It's NOT LABELED?
How are these panels for off-grid Solar installations It would also be great if there was Home Assistant or other Open Source management/monitoring integration
You're killing it Paul! Love the confidence!!
Paul got like 7 layers of "before that" before I lost count. 😂
If you sell the house, how does the new owner get access to the panel?
Just FYI, the energy lost to spinning the dial in an old school meter is tiny. I think they use sapphire bearings like a watch. The main reason they want to use smart meters is that it minimizes the manpower required to drive around and check your usage. Some require a person to drive slowly through a neighborhood, and a data collection module in the truck will collect usage for the entire street in a few minutes. Others have a network hub located on a streetlight or pole, and they collect usage within some radius, then use a cellular network to submit the whole neighborhood back to home station.
What about a house or home surge protector does span provide this as a built-in option or will you guys be adding one separately as an add on to each panel?
Consider an add-on electrical monitoring product. It will not control your power. It will tell you your usage per circuit. It can be removed at any time.
$3500 for a panel that I can tell not to turn the oven on so I can charge my car?! No thank you. I’ll buy a $300 panel all day. There’s a reason why they’ve been around for 100 years with out change
I don't know anything about SPAN but I like the way the panel looks
So where is the main disconnect so you can feed a stand alone generator into your house.
Can’t remember the name of the devise but it essentially locks out the grid if your powering your house with a jenny
ACE is great. Their stuff is always well-organized when I go.