Why This Song Is Impactful #40: Led Zeppelin "Achilles Last Stand"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2017
- Hey music fans & musicians -- love Led Zeppelin? I certainly do. Here are my thoughts on why the 10-minute epic "Achilles Last Stand" works -- or does it?
Please also check out my latest single, which is also a 10+ minute epic: • Aristotle's Hope: She ...
"Impactful" music is a school of thought around how some music hits us deep inside and becomes meaningful. Creating such music is my primary interest, so approaches and techniques I learn from other people's songs are from that perspective.
The written articles goes into a lot more details, so check it out: arikoinuma.com/blog/2017/11/un...
** Please read this bit **
Hey, thanks for checking out my video. I'm Ari Koinuma. I'm a Japanese-born, Minnesota (USA) based rock songwriter / guitarist /singer. My mission is to spread "impactful" music -- songs that hits you somewhere deep inside. I have two acts: Minnasia is my rock duo with vocalist Voua 'Bob' Yang, and Aristotle's Hope is my solo project.
If you enjoy what I do, please help me make more! Become my patron at / arikoinuma
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Look forward to connecting with you -- enjoy! - เพลง
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Bonham sounds like he has 4 arms in this song. And give props to John Paul Jones. The bass constantly chugs away in the background, driving the song forward
This tune is a classic example of music having effect on the body, after 40 years it still messes with your heart rate and make hair stand up
This song literally made me re-think about the Zep as a band and what they can do.
It's really an astounding performance. It feels like it's more than a song -- it's like a statement.
I listen because I'm a prog-metal nerd, and I'm used to long songs. That, and it's one of the greatest songs ever written.
Yeah I hear you, I think this song can be considered a prototype for prog-metal. Well, not metal I suppose, but prog-rock. It's a place to go to when the verse-chorus pattern starts feeling too predictable.
Excuse me, one of? lol. It's my absolute favorite Zeppelin song (especially the live version).
yes of course Jimmy Page's guitar, but don't ignore the part of John Paul Jones 's 8 strings bass guitar and Bonzo's kick drum...
Final words. It's a masterpiece
jones and bonham really drive the song
Yep they do. Great rhythm section is worth their weight in gold. :-)
Ari Koinuma think that was when jones got his alembic bass too. So probably felt creatively excited.
My all-time favorite Led Zeppelin song from Presence, my favorite album of theirs (the first rock album I ever owned when I was 14). I like the tension and desperation, and the otherworldly nature of the lyrics and composition. I also like the chik-diddy-chik-diddy-chik of John Paul Jone's muted bass rhythm. He was using an Alembic 8 string on that track. The opening arpeggio I found rather tricky to get owing to the shifting bass note as the melody progresses- but oh how these shifting tones seem to lead one down the corridors of time! And love how a similar arpeggio is used for the outro-
Props to you for this analysis -- not very many Led Zeppelin fans I have known, like or know about this song. I had a drummer friend who liked songs like "Good Times, Bad Times" but not this one so much.
I also like Tea for One-
Thanks! Yeah I think Led Zeppelin had two sides, one of more jammy / bluesy / rootsy act and the other of more experimental, adventurous act. This song falls in the latter, in the same pile as "Kashmir" and "Stairway to Heaven." I really love the song, I think the main groove is truly thrilling -- and yeah, that "chugga chugga" from John Paul Jones is subtle but important to the groove. I did learn that he used an 8-string, that's an instrument I'd love to add to my arsenal one day.
Tea For One is another great one
He actually used a Hagstrom on the studio version
No wonder I liked it in 76 (my parents knocked on the ceiling in agreement) and its my favorite song today, will put on lossless vinyl soon.
My favorite song of theirs
Fantastic breakdown of the song. I tried to learn the bass parts, but I have to play with a pick or my plucking fingers get tired way too fast. What a monstrous band!
Indeed -- most bands are carried by a singular talent but in Zep there are four exceptional musicians. And while they were at it they worked well together. It sure doesn't happen everyday.
This and Ten Years Gone have always been my favourite Led Zeppelin tunes. I enjoyed this discussion of the song, and break down of the parts. Page's lead playing really reminds me of BB King on this song, in terms of milking the most of each of the limited notes he plays.
Yeah Page was not a busy player, at least not most of the time. He really knew how to use minimal notes but layer them to create a bigger sound.
Ten Years Gone sound like For Your Light
ten years gone,this song,no quarter.... the long songs take you on a journey and get your mind thinking a mile a minute about epic stuff ha
When jimmy first played those chords and told jonsey he was going to make a song out of it jonsey said you'll never get it to work,.... so the story goes ..i heard jimmy say during an interview.
Well he made it work, and rather well at that. Didn't he?
@@AriKoinuma Jonsey made it work.
no way! that's awesome!
Ari, I absolutely loved your detailed breakdown even though I have no music theory understanding. Best part was your summary though, it was honest and courageous. I've listened to Achilles hundreds of times over the past 40 years and will listen yet again tomorrow morning at high volume in my truck like I did in high school. This time with new ears listening for aspects you presented here. Thank you.
Thanks Craig! It's fun to learn something new about what you thought you knew, isn't it?
Beautiful!! Thank you for this. Feeling it, is where it's at.
One of John Bonham's most powerful tracks....and that is saying alot, given Kashmir, Levee Breaks, In My Time of Dying, etc. His sound just grows and grows over this track.
Multi-dimensional masterpiece!
Thanks so very much Ari. Your breakdown makes learning this song seem easy, must “understand tonality.” Brilliant, both yourself and Mr Paige
Definitely a top 10 Zeppelin song for me. This video is great by the way. Good job mate.
Oh !!!!The Mighty Arms of Atlas ...Hold the Heavens From The Earth
I love the way you articulate this. Brilliant!
Thanks Steve!
Brilliant disection of a masterpiece.
Zeppelin is the best ever!
Hey bro! I really appreciated your fantistic analytical breakdown of this Phenomenal Masterpiece of Auditory Magnificance! I have to say, it seems the thing that makes this song work so incredibly well is the spirit behind it and way so many intricate woven emotions are displayed. Almost as though it is a representation of the entire struggle of human existance. I reaaally love this song dude and appreciate your hard work in doing this!
Glad you enjoyed my video Tej! There are definitely different layers to this song (and most Zeppelin songs in general) and that's part of the reason why it doesn't get tiring after repeated listens.
Dude, you nailed the tone - almost perfect. Nice. Yes, it's a very Complex Song, many Moving Parts all Colliding in Sonic Orgasmic Bliss.
Nicely explained. Have heard many times that many page riffs were chromatic and separately modal.. you pointed out both aspects in ALS opening 3 chords. And your comment on the rhythm section not playing a groove also well taken. Thanks
My favorite Zeppelin song. Thanks for sharing! Powerful song. You're right how cool this works so well with so many twists.
You're welcome Tim! Glad you got something out of it.
Yes! Finally someone who puts it into words!!! This song should be analyzed like strairway to heaven!
Great points!
WOW....YOU ARE A VERY SHARP MAN IN MUSIC!!! I HAVE LEARNED MORE ABOUT THIS SONG THE LAST TWO DAYS THAN ALL THE YEARS I HAVE TRULY, TRULY, LOVED THIS SONG AS ONE OF THEIR FINEST....IMHO OF COURSE!!! VERY IMPRESSIVE VIDEO.....AND WEL SAID ABOUT JOHN ON THE DRUMS.....MASSIVE HOW HE JUST RIPS IT!!! PEACE BROTHER!!!
Thank you Pat! Glad you got something out of it. The next analysis is also about a famous Led Zeppelin song, check it out! th-cam.com/video/7KAiQm9Q6VY/w-d-xo.html
Abstract rhythm sound that always lands on its feet..
From the mighty Led Zeppelin
Yep
I was intrigued why everyone loves you dude. I agree. Nice JOB BRO! ROCK ON!!
Awww shucks. Thank you David!
Thoroughly enjoyed your video , thank you . It was fascinating .
I watch the live version at Knebworth 1979. I watch it because I can’t believe the speed of Jimmy’s fingers and Bonham’s drumming. It’s astonishing that they keep that up for a whole 9 or 10 minutes without collapsing. I’m enthralled.
It's certainly impressive, isn't it? Thanks Roberta. 🙌
@@AriKoinuma
Yes it is. Epic!
Great review Ari. Well done sir.
Thank you Kevin!
Ari, it is very professional. Thank You!
I got much out of this, thank you. You're thoughts are on a level I can relate to which is rare for me. You fell in my queue while I'm enjoying a renaissance of my LZ liking, strange as it seems, for having been turned on to them in '69 - big thanks to my older brother who always brought home new music for us. So at 15 I'm hearing LZ I and saying 'this doesn't sound like the others, big brother'.
Thanks! Sounds like your brother did you a good service 😉
I think you got it pretty spot on. Before I ever started studying music and theory etc, I could never figure out why this song stuck out to me so much. I would always use descriptors such as "hauntingly strange" or "alien" and I think what you describe here is precisely what I was trying to communicate. It was a very "non traditional" approach not only in overall structure of the composition, but also in how each instrument comes together/interacts.
Either way they were geniuses. Who would have ever thought such a simple arpeggio could have such a deep,powerful impact with such a naturally mysterious implication? inspiring
Indeed, it's pretty inspiring stuff. Zeppelin showed us how good a rock band can be, and few seems able to match them. A lot of credit goes to individual skills, but how Page and Jones orchestrated / arranged also have a lot to do with it. There is so much to learn.
Good description and opinions 🤙🏽 Led Zeppelin is something of a higher power. Like you said we can only guess what made this unbelievable creation. Otherworldly. Aloha. 🤙🏽
I remember when I bought Presence album that had Achilles Last Stand. At that point everybody had all the other albums and played them half to death. All my friends had them. I was the only one to buy Presence. We all listened to it but it was decided it wasn't as good as the others. OK but not great. At the time I was in my 20's. I liked the song but few others did. It wasn't great but I liked it. But didn't understand why. Now in my 60's I heard it again and really like it even more and your video helps me to understand why! Beyond the length its the 4 elements all doing something different... together, and it works. God bless Jon Bonham. RIP.
Thanks for the comment Douglas.Yeah it's more complex and sprawling than, say, stuff from the 1st album. It may take longer to grow on you. But once it does it can knock you out by how deep it is.
I fell in love with Led Zeppelin in '76 when I heard When the Levee Breaks. Album cover art does influence me and I thought what a strange family activity depicted on the cover of Presence. Achilles Last Stand is my go to song on this album it gets me awake. In Through the Out Door was my last Zeppelin album I bought in 1979.
@@paintnamer6403 It sure got a lot of energy, especially for such a long track! A lot of prog rock long opus tend to be this grand, mid-tempo stuff....
Great tour de force with amazing guitar layering including subtle flamenco guitar ideas and a brilliant solo...The 4-D rhythm section with JPJ's 8-string alembic and of course as you rightly point out the mighty arms of Atlas in the form of Bonzo's dynamic drumming anchors one of rock's greatest compositions-Cheers!
Your point about flamenco is interesting Nigel -- I can see that now that you pointed it out.
correct Sir! Well done!
oh man! I love dissected music! I found your channel few days ago and now I already buying an acustic guitar
Glad to hear it -- good luck with a guitar, Moisés!
Perhaps the most poignant musical question ever posed. Love it!
Great video. Thank you.
You're welcome Kowan!
really excellent dissertation on the orchestration of this song...I know exactly what ari's saying, but I cannot explain it myself.
Excellent analysis. Achilles is vastly under rated.
Thank you Nawien!
Ari,
I watched your video again because I was watching the Achilles Last Stand video again. I wanted to go over your analysis one more time.
You demonstrated what John Paul Jones was doing and you used exactly the right word to describe it….”urgency”.
That, the guitar and drums keep you listening. I have watched it several times and never think of stopping before it’s over.
Thanks for your video.
Thanks for watching again Robert!
Now I gotta listen to it again
Excellent video, Ari, Achilles is one of those "Other" LZ tunes, i.e. the ones that get any play one the radio, even the ones which brag about how much Zep they play. I guess ten minutes is a bit much for them. Shame because it's a great tune. Thanks for making this.
Yeah love that galloping feel, truly a tour de force for John Bonham.
the reason is so impact full is because led zeppelin made it. he had one of the best band on earth. they played it so good that all people wanna do is criticize
Ari, I enjoyed your analysis. I like when I encounter someone who gets it. Thanks.
Thanks Sid!
はじめまして！This was fascinating! I know it was 5 years ago, but it has just come up on my suggestions as the first vid. Glad I was introduced to it! It is a longer song, but I could go on listening to it, especially as someone else mentioned, the Knebworth version. They are all fantastic, but I think Bonham stole the show. Will be sure to check out your own stuff now. BTW, I see from your About info, you are from Tokyo and have lived overseas for many years. Kind of the opposite, I've lived in Tokyo for many years! Elle x
初めまして！ Thanks for the comment Elle, and I hope you are enjoying Japan. Yeah I know about the Knebworth version and it's amazing! And thanks for checking out my music! My song "Hurt Cause Machine" has perhaps comparable vibes to Achilles.
I listen to led zeppelin since years and from time to time my favorite song of theirs changes. Right now i enjoy "the wanton song" the most, maybe because of the jazzy sound it has...
Yeah, not only do they have a big catalog but there's a lot of variety. You don't get tired of them.
You're damn right we listen to all 10 minutes of it.
*Spot on*
😊
I appreciate you breaking down why we listen to this long song, to technical for me, I just listed to it because it’s a masterpiece to my ears. In other words I don’t know exactly why I like this song, I just do.
Hey Ari, I just went to your Sound Cloud account and listened to "Eleanor Rigby". Dude, I am impressed. The arrangement is like excellent, way excellent. I was gonna do that tune and I never though of anything close to as good as that for that song. The guitar work is really good, I would have had it a little more present in the mix, but it's really good. I am blown away man. Your singing is outstanding! The few notes on the end are really good, you know which ones I'm talking about, super powerful, clear, with no sounds of struggle, man, impressive my friend, very impressive. I'm going back to hear more. This is the first chance I've had to listen to your stuff because of all the crap I've been through over the last few days, but the one song that I heard is really good and is still going through my head. Oh and yes, one can tell that you're a Zeppelin fan from that one song. I heard it, no, it's not too much. It's the right amount of influence, you can just tell where you come from.
Thank you sir! Actually I'm not singing lead on that song, but I'll pass the word to my singer. Ones marked as "Aristotle's Hope" is my solo project and you can hear me take a stab at singing, but I'm not as good as my singer Bob for Minnasia. I've always wanted to be a lead guitarist and backing vocalist, so I'll gladly accept your kind words about my guitar playing and the whole arrangement.
I actually don't listen to Zep that much, but I do relate to Jimmy Page in that we both like to "build" guitar parts -- for that arrangement I had fun coming up with two completely different rhythm guitar parts that work well together without being too busy. We are shooing music video of that cover soon.
Good, very good. It should be out there. I really like that. I like the way you apply yourself and your talent is outstanding. Yes tell Bob I really like his vocals and yours are also very good. Someone said they liked the honesty in your voice, I agree totally. Please keep working. If you don't mind my asking, how old are you Ari? I don't want you to feel like you have to answer that but I am curious. There's a lot of music in you and you do think outside the box well. I'd also like to know where you're from but you don't have to answer that either, feel free to tell me it's none of my dang business. lol
Ha ha, all questions are good, I may choose not to answer some of them but there's no harm in asking. Also, if you'd like to stay in close touch and give me feedback with my career and creative pursuits, I'd love to have you join my patron -- only $1/month, you get all my music, plus I'm sharing new music as I'm writing them and I welcome your feedback. www.patreon.com/arikoinuma I'll greatly appreciate you being part of my circle who help me make more music and more useful contents. Plus, I'll enjoy getting to know you, too. I don't even know your first name (you don't need to tell me here), for example.
To answer your questions, I'm in my mid 40s. I'm originally from Japan, but have lived in US all my adult life. It's been my dream to be a full-time musician but I haven't been able to, but now I feel like I found a direction that will build and eventually make my dream come true -- I've been getting phenomenal response, particularly on my TH-cam channel. It's slow-going and takes determination but I keep plugging away.
Thanks again for all your kind words, it means much especially coming from a seasoned musician like you!
Ari+Michael are I. You've heard my name before I am certain of it, same spelling and all of that, but I'm not the famous guitarist for the band Mike And The Mechanics/Genesis. An even bigger clue is that it starts with an R. Oh, and he's tall and skinny, and I'm short and fat. Dead giveaway as to which is which. ha ha I wasn't always fat but my health has taken it's toll on me all the way around. That's me in my profile picture playing my 70's Strat w/EMGs, it's a re-issue but it's really nice. I toured with a few bands through the 70's-80's-90's and a few that came pretty close to getting over the hump. In the 70's it was a band called "John-Michael-James", out of Detroit, Michigan. In the 80's it was a band called "Brickland" and another called "On The Edge", and a band called "Wes James And Company", this one was a Las Vegas show band. In the 90's it was a band called "The Players" which was Billy Ray Cyrus' old band and I replaced the guitarist, Terry Shelton as Billy Ray took some of his musicians with him from West Virginia to the Nashville project that won him, and them, some fame. I've played a lot of pre-shows for some greats such as Charley Daniels Band (3x) Wayne Cramer, Patty Loveless, Lynard Skynard in 1977 just before the untimely death of some of the bandmates like Ronnie Van Zandt, Dickey Betts' Great Southern, I've done extensive recording at the Music Mill in Nashville-Elephant Studios in Detroit (John-Michael-James album). I now record at "My House Studios" at . . . My House. Yep, in WV. So I've been around a while and done a few things. Don't know it all but I know a little. So that's me. Yes, I will join your patron next month, right now I don't even know how much I have in the bank living from month to month and my wife has been in the hospital, so I'm having to do the bills. lol or letting them do me. lol So I'll let you know more about me as I get on your patron thingy. Thanks for your kind words also. Seasoned musician-someone that has beaten themselves to pieces for years and nothing really came from it except a few knots on their head. lol Oh, I took down the link leading to my song "Bitch, Piss and Moan" I hope you either still have it or can find it somewhere if you want to go back and listen again or I can give it to you and then take it down again, just didn't want to leave it up here out in the open for all eyes to see. I'm sure you understand.
Awesome, thanks Michael! I look forward to staying in touch with you through Patreon then. Sounds like you've been around the block a few times, it'll be great to have your perspective.
Great analysis Ari. You're right about the keys - E is clearly the tonal centre. The only thing I think you could have added is more about the polyrhythmic breakdown
Polyrhythmic breakdown? Are you referring to the pounding section in the middle? I think you're right, there are rhythmically interesting things going there that I didn't highlight. Thx for pointing it out.
Nice channel man!
Great video, man. I think think its Bonham and John Paul Jones combined, but maybe a little more Bonham than Jones here. I've noticed when it's not obvious right away why something works so good the bass tends to be what is going on. I always liked Beck, the singer, and didn't know why until I started paying attention to the bass lines. Turns out his bass player was the musical director and had most of the slick stuff to himself.
Good thoughts here. The rhythm section forms the foundation of music, so when one or both of them are doing something interesting it really lifts up the whole thing. Busy doesn't always equal interesting, and having the rhythm section that knows the difference is very valuable.
おはようアリさん！ほんとうにおもしろいビデオだよ！去年からだけギターを弾いているけど、アリのように上手になりたい！
Greetings from Germany :)
おお、日本語じょうずですね！ どうもありがとう！
Also have complete 2007 rehearsals at Shepperton studios, sound desk Hi quality to upload when I get the time soon. But John aint on it.
Hot with a taste for good music & teaching your birthright skill with ease- you've got a fan with the hotts!
Thank you Ms. Pisces! I have many videos of this vein, but if our tastes match you may also enjoy my original music! :-)
Lol two views :D
A good examination, but I do think you neglect to touch on the climax of Plant's vocal, the part that goes '...holds the heavens from the earth/From the eeaaaaaaaaaarth'
I suppose I did, that is the most memorable part in this song as far as Plant's vocal is concerned. Point well taken.
What an interesting video. The first long song I was ever introduced to was probably Bohemian Rhapsody. I was able then to listen to Stairway To Heaven which is one of the best rock songs. This love for long songs then caught onto me when I listened to Rime Of The Ancient Mariner by Iron Maiden. Anyway, thanks for this video!
Thanks for the comment Christophe. I wouldn't say long is always good, but I enjoy songs that deviate from predictable verse-chorus patterns to go on more unexpected twists and turns. It just seems more satisfying. If you enjoy such songs, please know that I released 10+ minute songs myself as Aristotle's Hope -- you can check them out on Spotify etc.
The same reason I listen to 23 minutes of Supper's Ready by Genesis. It's awesome from beginning to end. The way the song flows together keeps you pulled in.
It's no easy feat to create long pieces of music that keep the audience engaged throughout, but it's possible. And in some ways it's more rewarding, both from the musicians and audience perspectives.
Ari Koinuma the Peter Gabriel era of Genesis was every bit as good as Zeppelin in my opinion, although they never had the same commercial success. I think the main reason is most of the songs are around 10 minutes. That's the downfall of it I think, you have a limited audience due to lack of exposure.
Well, there are many factors going into an artist's career -- Tool often writes longer songs but they have huge audience. But one can't define what success is for an artist either -- more isn't always better. Many of my songs are longer than common rock songs, I hope to find enough people who like my music for their richer experience. I liken good, longer music to a full-course meal -- nothing wrong with one-dish meals but if you got the time, it's more satisfying to experience something bigger and fuller.
Ari Koinuma good point I agree. Don't get me wrong I love simple rock songs like Jumping Jack Flash too. I have a pretty diverse taste, I like a pretty wide variety of rock and metal 60's to today. Diversity is good.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I listen to short pop and rock songs all the time! Variety is good! And more progressive/ambitious musicians shouldn't get so snobby as to say "my songs are more complicated and longer therefore they are better than shorter, simpler ones." Far from truth.
trying to figure out what ROBERT was singing about is also a reason to listen, after you played it at volume 2 or three times listening to the guitar lines the bass lines ad the drums then you go yeah west was he singing about, I guess I better listen to it a few more times, damn I keyed on the drums again, GUESS I have to listen again to see what's up with Robert
Ha ha! I suppose that sense of mystery can drive you to listen some more. But you wouldn't bother trying to figure out the lyrics if the music itself wasn't so good.
It's epic and addictive. In my top 5 zep songs.
Because it sounds cool
Page has said he was really driven to create this album (Plant was in a wheelchair), and it seems to suffer from over-effort perhaps, and lacks the free imagination of earlier albums. I still love it and consider it the last truly Zep album. I think you make an excellent case for why this song can sustain our attention.
Presence is great
Page said in some interview that nobody really came up with ideas, so thats the reason it is so guitar-heavy, also staying up to three days because of deadlines.
You're not giving Page enough credit. The variations and soloing during those 10min are amazing. He is not repetitive, he is not boring. Even with a plain drummer, the song would still be captivating.
Yes, Page did build in lots of cool variations. For my taste, though, I think the song can use a different section to break it up a little more if it's to be 10 minutes long.
I totally agree with you. Page is the great master of Achilles Last Stand, no doubt about it. It´s impossible don´t recognise this solo like one of the best solos of the rock history!
BECAUSE WE LIKE IT
Ари, Ваш профессиональный обзор очень понравился. Благодарю Вас!
Aleksandr_, I don't speak Russian but if Google translate is anywhere close -- I take this as a compliment. Thanks!
Translation in English is - "Ari, it is very professional review,really liked. Thank You !" )
simply said-it is the essence of led zepplin
When I first heard Achilles Last stand, I didn't actually like it it very much. It was their first 1979 Knebworth performance of the song that made me like the song.
Thats exactly what happened to me as well,
it wasnt before i heard the live version at knebworth i felled in love with it, and i learned how mighty and strong the song and zeppelin truly is. but the first time i actually discovered it was by the dazed and confused version from the song remains the same movie, theres a part there where jimmy plays the opening of Achilles. :)
Was it just seeing them play it? It's been a few years since I've thrown that DVD on but I always felt like they mainly did an amazing job of recreating the studio version extremely faithfully without a lot of deviation to the point it just sounds like the version on the album but with poorer acoustics. I love it though, for that reason. It's such a complicated and difficult song that being able to bring it to the stage so perfectly is an achievement a lesser band would be incapable of. Assuming they could ever pull off the studio version to begin with.
If this were the Key of D Major, then Em and F#m, would be chords II and III. Listening carefully though, the 1st played arpeggio is a Bm6 with E in the bass (D's relative minor with the 9th in the bass demonstrates the composers intention of vast movement in the composition). In fact there's a Bm6 lick which bridges the two chords. The Fm arpeggio in the intro is also F#m6 which highlights the 'D' note on the 2nd string. From this perspective, the complexity of the composition is greatly reduced. When the vocal melody and solo are analysed the 'D' seems to be the proper fit (E Dorian when the main motif begins as mentioned in the video, however the guitar and bass resolve to D major in the main motif). The F# to F coincides with a major to minor movement of 'D'. With regard to sustained interest over 9+ minutes; along with the variation of the riffs, one of the principal reasons for the sustained interest over the complete song is the excellent production. It can be detected with the use of headphones. Jimmy Page continued to add layers as the song progressed which results in a subconscious sense of novelty as the song continues. Page's greatest strength is that of producer.
Thanks for a great counter analysis, RedPepper! I agree that it seems simpler if we considered the song to be in D Major, and your point is well-taken that the main motif resolves in D -- but that said, to my ears I still hear E as the tonal center because of bass' pedal tone. I agree that Page was a great arranger and producer, and how he layers and orchestrates the songs is what sets Zeppelin apart.
Great Ari! But please listen to it again. The bass pedal tone also goes to an E octave and then to a D below the octave.
That may be true but a "key" is not about what scale the notes make up but which note has the sense of home or arrival. Which is a subjective call sometimes but with the main motif of this song I still hear it centered around E.
But that said, music theory is simply a tool to understand what's going on with music, to help us figure out why the music comes across a certain way. So how ever you think of it is valid. I know that if I were to improvise over this I'd be thinking it's a D Major that starts and ends with E.
Bach's Bouree in Em, the note E passes three times, very briefly, in the 1st motif (contrary motion with G, a passing note and then octaves of E) and, that said motif ends with a G major. The 2nd motif also has E note played very seldom. Traditional Western music theory has specific names for each note as it relates to the "Tonic". In modern times, names like 2nd, 3rd... etc don't give insight into their responsibilities in the scale. Traditionally, the 2nd note of a scale is called the Supertonic and is explored extensively in exposition pieces like Fugues and Sonata Form, often transposing to the key of the supertonic in the development division before recapitulation (similarly adopted in Achilles Last Stand). Modern education justifies the key as the tonal center with an even older theory... modal (modes pre-date common practice music and were employed for melodic variation and not for harmony. I've studied modes and do employ them at times, for expose melodic expression). Baroque and Classical had gone past this knowing that the sum notes of the scale make the key, regardless of accidental notes and used aeolian and ionian as the basis for minor and major but allowing for expansion with accidentals. That's why the key signature is indicated at the beginning of every score and the beginning of every movement, although the tonic may be struck just once or twice. At the end of the day, the really important thing is the way the brain understands the music. I know guys with really good ears who don't know the names of the notes (far less for theory) and could work out any piece of music accurately. If Modal Theory gets you through then good, as any theory is just a tool to understand the music. Happy New Year Ari! To You and Your Family!
RedPepper, that was an awesome, well-educated response! I have background in classical music, too (majored in college) so I know where you're coming from. I had to learn more jazz-oriented way of calling things, mostly because popular music seems to be discussed using it, but you are right that if I were to write Achilles Last Stand on a score I'd use the key signature for D major.
I also agree that guys with fantastic ears don't have as big a need to learn theory -- but then there are the rest of us. :-) I'm doing these videos in the hope that those who love music learn a thing or two about it.
I really enjoyed our discussion, I hope to see your comments in my other videos. Thank you!
I listen to it because John Bonham sounds like Grawdzilla.
check out the knebworth verison or the listen to this eddie version~! bonham was an absolute MONSTER!
It's my favorite Led Zepp song. It is so removed from Blues covers that it stands out as toweringly original. Can you imagine if Frank Sintatra tried to cover it? I think the song content creates imagery of Achilles on the battlefield (think Brad Pitt in Troy killing 25 men in 60 seconds because they are in his way). On top of this, when Zepp performed this live, seeing Plant and especially Page drenched in sweat doing their damndest to get through the thing alive adds yet another dimension to the battlefield theme in the song. It's like they have to EARN the song by challenging themselves to get through it. The only thing missing is the blood I look for in all that sweat. It's not just Zepp's and Page's finest work, performed live this song is the pinnacle of al Rock and Roll itself. The intro and outro reflect it's epic nature. The arpeggio is cyclical sounding as if the battle will rage for untold millennia or perhaps eternally. Magnificent. And like you said Bonham is the key to the whole thing.
Hey Dan, I love your comment. I really get what you’re saying about how they seemed like they had to earn the right to play this song. I can totally see an artist doing that, to challenge themselves by writing really, well, challenging material. One that force them to give their all to play it. Makes sense to me.
This felt like their last great epic song, and it’s ironic that the title really does reflect this as their ‘last stand’, you could hear the cracks in the freshness of their music just peeling through the veneer of the song. Context also matters, and the musical world was changing at this time, away from progressiveness towards a more simple ideology.
Great thoughts there, I agree on all points.
Another Zeppelin song that moves onto your turntable platter and refuses to leave.
Agreed!
Thanks a lot for your explanation, but I think you forget one important thing: it was a long waiting album, about 2 years (not ? correct me, if so)), and this is thing with Presence started.
Hmmm but how does that fact affect the song? I'm not clear.
@@AriKoinuma Anatomy of this song is a less reason to hear it from the beginig till the end. When song was written and apear so many fans in whole world waiting for about long two long years. They about loose their patience. What real reason to listen this not just for 10 minutes, for all next times. Music quality, genious playin, composing this brilliant song, I'm entirely agree, another reason to stay)).
@@AriKoinuma it's my favorite song by Zep, by the way))
Ah that makes sense. So fans were eagerly anticipating the release of this album, so they are very happy to receive a 10+ minute opening track. :-)
The mighty LED ZEPPELIN 🔑
12: 51 I have exactly the same opinion.
I think the song is long because it had to be to fill up the album. . They cold have cut a verse or one of the repetitive parts before the end out and no one would have noticed. They needed one more song at least on the first side. That being said, I think "For Your Life" and "Royal Orleans" are vastly underated Zep songs.
Hmm that's an interesting perspective, Mike. Makes sense in the light of the fact that the album only has seven songs.
Maybe Jimmy wrote this song for John Bonham to showcase him more. Just a Thought... MayB The song is actually showcasing everybody's insane level..🤔 Like pretty much all their songs
Like pretty much all their songs. You got that right Jim.
The SoundTrack to the Anime Akira wasn't done by Led Zeppelin!
Ha! It's great sound track though.
why do we listen to all 11 minutes of in my time of dying
Ha ha, is that a request, Anthony?
Ari Koinuma nice idea, if you aren’t too busy :) great video btw. very insightful. thanks for the reply man👍🏼
Unfortunately, I am very busy, and there are many great songs.... but I always consider what songs people are interested. Don't hold your breath, but feel free to mention songs to me.
I love the gallop
I googled this tune on ultimate guitar chords. I play on my acoustic easy chords sounds good enough drunk at a campfire.
Ha ha! Yes I am sure that’s possible. Enough to impress your friends after they had a few, too 😉
@@AriKoinuma mostly if they’ve had a few. Lol.
Anyone who says zeppelin was a hair band and not the geniuses they were is out of their minds, we'll never know how many more masterpieces or what type of musical journey they would have taken us on if John's life hadn't been senselessly and foolishly cut short. I wish they'd get together with Jason and put out an album.. yeah it would be great if they toured one last time and that would be one great memory to hold on to but i'd rather have a new album regardless if they toured or not.
Yeah it's a shame that Jimmy doesn't put up a lot of new music. Jonesy has been prolific, as has Robert, but Jimmy's brilliance as the mastermind behind LZ is missed.
Imagine what Bach could have come up with if he was friends with Bonzo. Probably something that would last a week and turn your brain to gravy.
Ha ha! That will be quite a combo. But I think both Bach and Zeppelin are good food for your brain. It may turn it into gravy or it will be gravy to it? Hmmmm.....
I'm a huge Zeppelin fan but this is not one of my favorite songs of theirs. I don't think it's the length because I regularity listen to artists with longer songs like Yes' Gates of Delirium and ELP's Tarkus, and others including your work. I never thought about the reason but I agree with your lack of contrast statement. Perhaps contrast is why the Tokyo Philharmonic has done a cover of Tarkus and not Achilles Last Stand. Thanks again for your thoughtful musical analysis and I'm glad I subscribed.
I enjoy this song, again I like uptempo epics -- a lot of longer compositions go at it a leisurely pace. But in the second half it does feel a bit sprawling. The point is that when the musicians are so phenomenal you don't have to be the tightest with songwriting and still get away with it. "Stairway to Heaven" on the other hand fully earns its length -- I'll have a look at that one one of these days.
Oh, and thanks for your kind words, and for listening to my music!
You have to let go of any expectations and preconceptions about music and the usual forms and just let this song take you away on a "galloping" journey to quote Ari. I didn't love it at first but 20+ years later, it's now 1 of my top Zep faves... all because I had to elevate to it to get it. 🤘. Don't give up.
I basically watched 15 minutes of what I thought could have been a very good video explaining the song's musical structure and complexity, but instead I got this:
"Why Achilles Last Stand is so Impactful? Well first of all you have John Bonham on drums, secondly, you have John Bonham on drums, and finally, you have John Bonham on drums, so yeah, that's it, I just made this video 15 minutes long because I wanted to show you a bunch of guitars on the background and that I knew to actually play the song, also I like to talk, a lot, LIKE A LOT, because I've reached a very good english level and I'm so proud of myself, so I hope you enjoyed this video about how John Bonham was the reason behind basically all of Led Zeppelin's success, and as a guitarist myself I love to give almost NO CREDIT to Jimmy Page's genius on the instrument, anyway, I'm such a cool musician, go check out my stuff, bye"
I have to say, wasn't expecting that, really, you fooled me good.
Marcos, you make some very valid points there. Sorry my video didn’t deliver for you. I’ll consider these points for my future videos. Appreciate the constructive criticism!
@@AriKoinuma Well, I'm a drummer, so I love John of course, and I do think he was the soul of the band, actually, his death was the reason why the rest of Zep decided to break up, they just couldn't go on without him, he was onie of those crazy geniuses, but as a guitarist yourself, you should recognize that Jimmy's crafting and style also gave a lot of colour and soul to Zep's songs, specially this one I think, where the riffs and chords may be unusual, but that doesn't mean they're bad, also, it doesn't matter that the song has no chorus, there are many great rock songs in rock history that don't have one, and it makes no difference to the genius of their crafting and writing, on my current musical work as a drummer in my band, there are many times where our songs don't have choruses, and they're great non the less, hell, sometimes they don't even have guitar solos, and our lead guitarist doesn't get mad about that, music is not supposed to be only made in one way, that's the beauty of it.
@@checkmagik Marcos, I totally agree with everything you said, so if it came across like I was saying otherwise in the video, that is totally unintentional. Maybe I didn't do a great job highlighting Jimmy Page's genius in this particular video, but I've done other videos on Zeppelin and consider Page to be my major songwriting / guitar styling influences -- so I don't need any convincing! But I'm of the opinion that drummers are souls of every band (that has a drummer) because it doesn't matter whether they have Page or Plant on guitar and vocals -- if the drums didn't deliver the whole band will suffer. Drums are the single biggest contributor to how a rock band sounds. So I can totally respect their decision not to go on after John Bonham died.
@@AriKoinuma Well, of course, we drummers are the soul of our bands, a bad drumming performance or a not so-on-point one will always disappoint and let down it's audience, but of course, John isn't the ONLY reason why this and many other of Zep's songs are impactful, that's my point, I mean sure his drumming was something else, so soulful, imaginative, chaotic, amazing, but he wasn't the only guy doing an effort for the band, also I really think John Paul Jones was a hell of a talented musician on this set up as well, if not the most talented if you ask the proper person, they're all amazing in their jobs, and the way they complement each other made this an incredible band that will forever be known as one of the greatest experiences in rock history, no doubt about that.
Was good until 12:50 don't get me wrong Bonham is the greatest drummer that ever lived but it starts and ends with Page.
Well Page is the composer, sure. But without Bonham giving it life this song, or this band, would have been half as good.
Why do we listen to 15 minutes of explanation to a 10 minute song summary
Cause He knows what hes talking bout
@@lamarg.7462 support your reasoning
Can you really say Jimmy Page didn't know about Dorian mode? I think he probably did.
You may be right, but based on the interviews and such I read, he didn't seem too academic a type. I'm just guessing though.
@@AriKoinuma Much of his music is modal, I find.
@@comic4relief Agreed but one can write modal stuff without knowing that it is.
@@AriKoinuma Between him and John Paul Jones, and their knowledge of British music in general, I just think their technical understanding is probably greater than we may tend to realize.
@@comic4relief yeah you may be right.
Really like your analysis dude. Have 2 guitarist brothers. Me, (stereotypically stupid) drummer. This song is a bitch on drums.
Thanks! Yes, I can see that it's hard on drums -- but on the upside, drummers are more important than guitarists!
Why listen to 10 minutes of a legendary song when you can listen to 15 minutes of me
😂
Yep, some of the greatest songs ever written come from heroin use.
For better or worse, I don't know anything about that. :-)
@@AriKoinuma Jimmy did the Heroin, Plant did the Coke, John drank, and JPJ did whatever he felt like.