PLAY TO WIN REACTS TO YOUR MTG HOT TAKES
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- Dylan, Cam, and Tyler react to MTG hot takes submitted by supporters on Patreon
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Tyler is the X factor of the podcast. Tyler adds a lot of value and reflexion to the table and contrasts with Cam and Dylan so well. Please keep it up forever
This!!!
I was so happy to hear his take on the Budget Builds. Mindset is a huge factor.
Tyler, at the base of the dark castle of the devil lords, begging them to stop rating things in a top 10 system
“You guys are obsessed with rating things but you can’t rate viewer comments” I couldn’t even make it 2 minutes in😂
I don't care if you all disagree with me, it was fun seeing my take discussed.
Thank you for submitting your take!!
I love that the thumbnail implies the hosts of the show are dylan, underworld breach, tyler, and cam
That background take has one example that proves the concept is criminally insane:
Tivit with a red background. Because yes, Tivit needed access to Dockside Extortionist and Underworld Breach.
Tivit with Street Urchin sounds pretty vile ngl
Kykar with agent of the iron throne would also be stupid, turn all your counter magic into burn, and get access to tutors and naus that are also burn spells
The best part about this video, is that I'm totally with Tyler: "guys, stop rating everything."
But also, keep rating things please!!!
Yeah dialed up my "background" take to 11, added some ghost peppers in there as requested haha. And I agree adding colours is definitely too difficult to manage, but do agree it'd be cool for WOTC to revisit the mechanic. Loved the podcast 10/10
More background commanders would be so cool to see! Thanks for submitting the take!
Love this idea but I think it only needs to be applied to mono-color commanders. This wouldn't bust anything open.
@@jamesclare1858 Not even Godo?
Godo would be better of course but I don't see it becoming better than Kennan or becoming significantly better than other 2+ color decks. @@BenchForAllTheMarbles
Having a stronger cedh voltron Godo deck would be amazing. I'd go rakdos for the tutors and rituals personally.
The first two minutes are both the reason your channel has done so well and also my constant wondering of how your channel blew up. Never change. Always be chaos. And the always inclusive and warm energy is always loved. So happy you guys are doing well :)
For the “revealing counterspells argument” I think I agree with the idea of just telling everybody what is in their hand but with a caveat. The way I tend to handle it is I will share partial information about the opponent’s hand. I might say they have certain win-cons, but withhold saying anything about the counterspell because generally it only helps me if they counter someone else’s play line
Personal hot take: hot takes should be exactly one sentence without extensive explanations
That which can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Can you explain your hot take further please?
I don't think 2 card combo's are boring. I do really dislike Thoracle over all other combo's because it's very difficult to interact with.
This. If a two card combo can be stopped on the battlefield then it's fine. Lab-Man is fine. Thassa's can only be stopped on the stack and even then only via things that can interact with abilities. It is on top because it is compact, cheap, AND difficult to answer. You can be any two of those things but being all three is too much.
Thank you for the shout out of Tale’s End (even though it doesn’t make your cut). Fantastic card in my local pod, but rarely gets any attention in the broader cedh community
Re: playing Pet Cards to diversify and surprise
100% agree with that too; not even just for cedh, but in general. Sometimes it's worth it just to confuse your opponents and make them figure out what the hell this card you just played does, sometimes it unlocks weird new strategies, and sometimes it just means you get to have more fun.
My casual Yasova deck runs Soldier of Fortune solely because I also run Scroll Rack; for those who don't know, SoF is a 1/1 for a single red whose only ability is R, Tap: Target player shuffles their library. That's it. Oh, and it has art by Doug Shuler where he definitely painted his own face and then did the rest of the art around it.
Anyways, obviously having a repeatable source with which to shuffle your deck when you don't have every fetch under the sun to reshuffle after rack/brainstorm/etc is pretty nice, but you also get to wage mental warfare by making your opponents shuffle whenever you want. Sure, you can make them shuffle away something important if they tutored to top, but just making your opponents shuffle repeatedly for *no reason* absolutely has value. (the value is that it's funny)
Perplexing Chimera is one I need to add to the list too because it totally works with the deck's gameplan; that being said, I've been meaning to make a Brudiclad deck where the primary goal is to flood the board with tokens from Krenko, then get a single token of Chimera out and wreak havoc until someone gets a boardwipe
Would love to see a no-partner Commander + Backgrounds episode, kind of like the No Ban List episodes.
2:52 lol the banter is the best part of your show
On a scale of one-to-Batman symbol, I give PtW a Batman symbol for being the best cedh podcast 🖤🤟🏻🤟🏻
"WHO IS THE BEST COMMANDER WITH PRISMATIC PIPER" EPISODE WHEN?!
26:10 Dylan says "There's two parts" on the "what can we rigolously deduce" take, but I think there's three. The third is: there is nothing else we can deduce. Would have loved to hear your thoughts on if there are other facts of cedh that can be deduced.
23:00 I remember that in Trice games, people would make a token that just said "Priority" and tapping it meant that you passed prio. It was pretty clean and smooth.
I think the opinion regarding proxy Magic is meant more as an indictment of tournament runners/play groups/LGS Owners that don't allow proxies, rather than trying to gatekeep people from playing substandard lists. Viewed in that light, I actually 100% agree. cEDH is almost necessarily pay to win, and losing because you couldn't optimize your mana base will almost always feel bad.
As a person who's been brewing Talion since it was spoiled, I think the Tymna // Kraum comparison is even less fair than usual. Where T+K wants to be midrange with a turbo pivot usually; Talion shines as a control deck (like Cam mentioned). The life loss adds up, and the lower colors actually enables more pieces to support the control strategy since you aren't shoehorned into quite as many required staples.
Now, whether the differences mentioned actually make a major difference remains to be seen; but I don't think it's fair to look at Talion and say "Why not Blue Farm," because they offer different build routes.
I don’t really even play cEDH but I love your channel and these spicy takes! Great discussion.
Tempest Counterspell was a 4 of in the first MTG product I ever bought back in 1998, and I have always loved it. "It was probably a lousy spell in the first place." I run it as a pet card over Delay, maybe lose 0.012% power from my deck? lol
I think that as well as offering new colours to commanders adding backgrounds to everyone runs the risk of adding combo outlets to the command zone. Passionate archaeologist could go as the background for any food chain deck so you always have a payoff. Tivit may want Agent of the Iron Throne which doesn't add a colour but would make time seive loops more consistent.
I've seen half of these hot takes in the comments of yalls shorts. I've replied to a couple of them as well lol. Hopefully this kind of episode continues
The most interesting conversation happens at the very end of this amazing podcast lol
To have the opinion dockside is not as good as it used to be and follow that with "when I see a dockside come down I get excited because if you don't win I am going to [because of a clone effect in hand]" is a weird stance to take. Sounds like it means that dockside is still the linchpin for winning games 😐
I love running Fatespinmer in my Azami deck, it's a pet card from a friend's deck. It has definitely messed up pods where combat was the game plan.
Hot Takes:
1. Attacking isn't bad. The amount of games I've seen a 3/5 [or more] Ledger Shredder sit back for a few turns is insane. The damage adds up and figuring out the player[s] who runs 'Life as Resource' isn't hard!
2. Psychic Surgery should be seen more.
3. In a Chain of Smog combo deck, Chain of Acid could be in all lists. Having a backup isn't bad.
Nothing better than a Trickbind on a Oracle ETB ❤️🔥
RE. Adding colours via backgrounds being too powerful (totally agree), what do you think about adding colours to commanders via backgrounds with potentially severe negative traits? Could be an interesting design space
Are you talking about something like Eminence? Because otherwise you can just not cast the background. A do-nothing enchantment that is just a certain color would already be adding value to a deck by adding the color to its color identity.
@@therealax6 yeah it would have to work like eminence I guess or give you an emblem at the start of the game or something, for the reason you stated!
🔥that dockside take is 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I honestly thought they were trolling
The real Talion hot take that it's underrated as part of the 99, I'm putting him in any U/B deck that wants advantage engines
Agreed and same!
i had to build a gae's cradleless kinnan deck, i ended up going with mostly basics in the list, and just run earthcraft and the one drop green haste enabler. Makes all dorks very fast, and still holds up in cedh pods
On our tournaments (local ones) allowed 10 proxies, but commonly I play proxyless
Giving Minsc and Boo access to a blue background would break CEDH ❤️💚
You pronounced my name right! Thanks for choosing my comment!
Thanks for submitting your take!
The take at 14:39 is so fucking common online from non CEDH players, it actually drives me insane as a casual player to deal with this. It is an incredibly ironic take too because most non CEDH players could CLEARLY be playing a better deck, because they're not playing CEDH. I've pushed people on this issue so many times by pointing out this take either commits you to the irony or tje endorsement of pubstomping. When they don't concede that pregame discussion about powerlevel is needed to avoid those commitments, they either double down, shit-talk or just disengage.
So maddening because I would wager many of these people are the same ones who say rule 0 is useless, yea because YOU actively disregard even thinking about a powerlevel discussion at every point when you go to play casual EDH. If people endorse and hold to this view it seriously makes the the casual play experience between randoms worse. Idk know how to get rid of this idea but CEDH content creators discuss and address the implications of these kinds of "hot takes" probably helps a lot.
About the background thing, I think backgrounds are bad, but I think if either two color choose a background or two color backgrounds are printed, they would be so fun. I think wizards knew from their mistakes not to make multiple two color partners, but with backgrounds you just give access to three colors, which is something I don’t find very imbalanced
I mean people go to regular tourneys with unoptimized lists all the time. Granted you feel it more in cedh.
I think the big reason people have this take due to people playing bad cards when they are just cheaper and terrible versions of good cards (mana crypt -> worn power stone).
There's ways to play on a budget but you gotta be aware of it so you don't keep your land tutors when you don't run the good expensive lands.
best thing is pitching a misthollow griffon for a fow that you trying to protect a foodchain with
My problem with Thoracle Consultation is the lack of ability to interact with it. It forces you to play blue or red to deal with it, restricting your choices of Commanders to use if you’re wanting to stop an opponent from winning.
Would love to add to the no-partner background take. I would really enjoy seeing a brief time where the backgrounds could be readily available to "All" commanders, as long as, the backgrounds are used as a companion mechanic, and they are color-identity locked.
Regarding Drannith. You did put Dihada, so a Mardu deck, in the top 3 of your fastest deck, so Turbo decks. So Dihada as a Turbo deck, should she play Drannith? Because I wrote the primer on her and i dont play drannith. But many others do and i think thats wrong. You want to win and not slow down the game. People who cant play their commander tend to keep mana open for interaction. (Also i have a Yuriko player in my regular playgroup so Drannith as a kingmaker comes up quite regularly)
I think dockside is actually better now that there's fewer dork based decks in the meta. Pretty much everyone at the top of the meta is looking to ramp with artifacts t1/2, and early docksides are consistently making 5+ mana. Turbo isn't as good, so it's not always coming down immediately to power a naus to win the game, but it's much more consistently making a ton of mana.
I built a commander cube with the rule that "all legendary creatures have choose a background". Its... WILD
If I could play drannith in kinnan, I absolutely would
Play to Win - aka specializing in complex solutions to simple issues, love you guys, thanks for all you do!
20:53 agree with this. A deterministic win condition doesn’t mean it’s uncontested or an auto-win. You could say the same thing about etali with food chain+squee. A+B combo that’s even more deterministic than thoracle. I have infinite mana and a payoff in the command zone the game is over.
I think the stax take has some merit in theory. If you look at stax in the sense of mana and card advantage, a single stax piece does more than a single counterspell can. If Rule of Law is stopping multiple players from going off it's like countering their spells for 3 mana and a single card. Is it always good? No, but stax can put in work as a proactive way to control the table.
For extra colors, I'd love to see what happens to the "lower" tier decks get a color. Gitrog gets red or blue? Obnixilis gets blue or white? I think that start to be a real problem.
I'm shocked that there weren't any "ban/unban" hot takes! Ban/unban episode when?
34:54 is advice every magic player needs to listen to, and then listen to again.
Its crazy how much copium i see online in comments/in person like "would have won if shuffler wasnt broken, would have won if xyz".
Well, those things didnt happen (or matter, or even exist), so you didnt. Learn from what happened, and move on.
Failure is just an opportunity for learning and growth, and people generally shouldnt feel as bad about it as they do. Loved this podcast guys, and Tyler is an absolute gem. Have him on as a regular host!
Kinnan + Street Urchin would be absolutely insane.
Just for red? Or is there something else I'm missing?
@@shenronsgoldfish adding red to kinnan's commander Identity is a pretty big deal. Street urchin gives you an out to bow masters in the command zone. Another good background for kinnan would be Guild Artisan
I think the hot take about backgrounds was meant to apply to mono colour commanders without partner as in Bladurs gate only mono colour commanders had choose a background.
Hot take: Yisan is a good cEDH commander
Also fun fact: the center of the sun is cooler than the surface of the Sun 16:39
Hotter take: Marwyn, the Nurturer is better
My "hot take" is that TOR and Bowmasters do completely opposite thing but are both an absolute slog to play against. cEDH used to be "first to resolve rhysyic wins" and now its "first to resolve rhystic and TOR" wins
if you want to add a color to a fringe deck and have a look if this is playable, add Green to Marchesa the Black Rose. So many ways to break the ability and especially making persist combos viable?
I'm on delay mostly to counter the original brain freeze during an underworld breach turn.
Maybe the question has been asked again about the one ring, but..Does Stomp of Bonecrusher Giant surpase the protection? Like doing Stomp on a creature on the field..Stomp say that damage can't be precented, but the One RIng gives you protection..so what rule surpassed which one?
Yes since stomp says damage can’t be prevent it gets around protection
A take I've read somewhere discussed that EDH players (probably CEDH players as well) are less skilled in the eyes of 60card format enjoyers because they don't pay the tax for Rhystic Study.
To them, it's basically treated as a stax piece like Thorn of the Amethyst of some cost increaser so one should play around the tax
I agree that Cedh is mindset and it tests skill, I've been organizing Budget Cedh league where we have a 50eu budget (ex basics). Right now we have a big meta with a lot of deck running at the top. It been really fun playig this way and mostly to see what players come up with. We still see turn 2/3 combo's happening if not interacted with. I've been watching a lot of you guys and love em all!
I think there's a big difference between _everyone_ having a certain restriction (because then it's just a format) and _you_ having a certain restriction.
I think this is why I mostly agreed with the original take. To rephrase slightly, if different players are playing with different restrictions (in this case budget) it's not cEDH. (I only mostly agree, the discussion of "what is cEDH" requires more nuance than I expect to find in a comment section) @@therealax6
I want the shirt cams wearing so bad ;-;
Also would you guys ever be into podcast that are a bit more personal and about life stuff? You guys seem hella chill and in interested in what music yall listen too :DD
10:50 honestly isnt that bad of a take. Like if you dont have the expensive cards you could proxy them in non tournament settings. It isnt gatekeeping so much as it is, if youre not playing the best of the best, how competitive are you really.
I think 15:33 is gatekeeping comparatively. The main difference being that the first one can allow proxies and doesnt gatekeep actually playing the game and allows others to play. I started out magic with a ton of proxies, i sliwly build up what i had since i had a supportive playgroup. If someone just comes in and pubstomps that isnt enjoyable for the people there
Pause at 5:25, perfect pose, that’s a good potential Halloween costume
I don’t have a cradle and don’t see being able to afford one soon, but I’ve been winning occasional cedh pods just fine. I only in the last six months or so have managed to go full on reserve list/dual land, but kept up just fine with a budget Kinnan and Godo lists before.
The person who's said that they win with a 50% chance is obviously mathematically incorrect: there is always a chance of draw, so it's 33%
I think we should look more into stern scolding from LOTR for CEDH due to creature/thoracle...
Hot take: The 3+ color deck argument is actually just a "having 2 commanders" argument and if partner was banned there would be plenty more 2 and 1 color decks making deep runs.
Oh but please I would love to see what you guys could come up with for that background rules change. Just like a one off video with commanders instantly getting cracked by adding a color and another permanent in the command zone.
The Budget "not cEDH" take is stupid since in other official formats, a lot of people play tournaments without perfect decks, too. Is football not competitive anymore, if one team has less budget for players etc.?
Hot take: surgical extraction good card in commander still. Creative applications for the effect
18°c is a pretty cool take
Giving kess white would be nice but still missing card draw from t&k. I'd be interested in adding red to Tivit though.
If you're talking about the Fahrenheit joke, 45°F = 7°C and 50°F = 10°C. At least for where I live, that's freezing! (Well, not literally...)
For pitch cards, I am also an advocate of Snapback in the right deck too.
I'm kinda interested to hear more about what Tyler was saying about making the conscious decision to f6/represent no interaction being sometimes useful. I'm pretty sure it's always better to keep the thought of some unknown card being a relevant one in opponents' minds but if someone thinks that representing 6 lands is good I kinda wanna hear about it
I feel like the time/stax take would be valid if instead of table time restrictions we had personal chess clocks. IDK if I'm crazy but that way would make time a way more valid playstyle.
"That's impossible math, no one knows how to do that..." -Dylan LOL!! Omg, wheew hilarious.
Y’all changed my mind on thoracle consult🤘🏽
On the meta shift, I get not liking the meta shift if youre on a budget and cant keep up. I know the answer is just play proxies but I understand why some people dont want to do that
9:00 so because i cant afford mishras workshop my arcum dagsson list is no longer cedh? nice
Tyler went full Jerry Seinfeld with the voice at 1:02.😂😂😂
We need the background experiment please 🙏
On the topic of backgrounds
Give niv mizzet black, we can be trusted with grixis colors don't worry
25:37 I would say this is really starting to become untrue as we move out of the thoracle/ad naus meta. Necropotence and borne upon the wind is seeing play over naus, multiple decks without blue are seeing play especially rakdos like Rowan and Ob Nixilis in addition to decks that were already established like Kinnan and Yuriko. The most recent tournament had golgari tevesh szat kodoma top 4 which is mind blowing to me. I feel we're in a season change getting more support for cards that hate on thoracle, card draw and ad naus. I would like to see how Beseech the mirror becomes either the most played or least played cEDH tutor as we get more 4 cmc or less permanents. If we look at the kaos top 4 alone, while the winner was 3 color the other three decks were golgari, izzet and azorius.
What if the background take was limited to same color? I think that could be fun
It’s also of note on the comment about time constraints that Winota is a stax deck and can win relatively fast from what I’ve seen.
I'll give you a hot take: 95% of players who complain about how their deck performs are not bad players, but unwilling to sink money into cards that make their deck better. The other 5% are issues like timing and mana skrew due to bad sleeves or shuffle technique. And I'm willing to go so far as to say that even the term "skill" in reference to your performance isn't a thing, but rather a term we've created to encompass all aspects of the game where we think we have control outside of deck building...and that people who "poopoo" on net decks don't do enough playtesting and research to justify their position.
This obviously wont get seen because it's after a week and not a patron msg, but it's something I think every player, regardless of format or even TCG, should consider when looking at their deck. It's hard to be honest with yourself because it's uncomfortable, and it's sometimes out of your control.
I agree with you guys except for one thing. You said counter magic is just strictly better. I think its too situational for that broad of a statement. Sometimes the value is way stronger than one counter card, other times you only want to answer one thing.
As someone who is often forced to play proxyless cedh, I find it absolutely laughable that someone could think that just because I’m forced to play an amount of shock lands in my Najeela list that I’m not playing cedh. My Thoracle still only cost 2, my Force & Guardianship are still free. You guys nailed it on the mentality. I think sequencing & the decisions you make during the game can often times more than make up for whatever percentage you lose with budget restrictions.
I ran Shocks in Najeela for 3 years
I can def relate to the sentiments about keeping up with the new cards coming out, i find myself more and more ignoring new sets and cards and if i find them in someones trades six months later i'll grab it then.
I have a question actually, do CEDH tournaments allow proxies ? I know official wizards tournaments don’t but most CEDH tournaments aren’t Wizards sanctioned and proxies are such an important part of the sub-format
Dockside getting worse: No. It's just being used differently - to progress into a stronger board state as opposed for going for the win. It "feels" weaker because you don't immediately win after, but as the meta has shifted, this is no longer an option and you are going for the grind game. It's no worse, it's just used differently (and that is correct).
Always revealing information: Wrong. You have a situation in which you have seen a force of will. Now bot you and gitprobed opponent both know that you know. You can choose to keep that FOW hidden and play on the edge of what you might think that player might allow. For example, I could play a tivit, the opponent, knowing it's not a "win the game right now" thing, can pass on it, having FoW up for the next player trying to actually win - especially as now, this player suspects he doesn't have a FOW as it wasn't used for Tivit that was cast. This is a scenario from a real tournament.
Here's a hot take for you, if you were still interested: Archon of Emeria can be effectively utilized even in midrange decks. Explanation: Midrange is weak to turbo (which is not meta now, yet), and Archon stops those decks in their tracks. But additionally on top of RoL effect, it has an asymmetric nonbasic land hate effect which makes you much faster than opponents (on top of being able to drop all your shit, than play RoL), as most opponents are 3+ (even 4+) colored. Fetch lands get completely hozed by this and you might even take a way the game on the back of this effect alone. To top it off, it's a 2/3 Flyer for 3 mana. This creature might be used in Tivit, as it runs a 1 card wincon and most wincons go around the RoL stax effects. More testing is required, but I've had moderate success with it on the last tournament. PS: Tell nobody.
In regards to Dockside I feel like Dylan is spot on. I see Dockside played for slight mana advantage a lot more these days.
But IMO that doesn't make it worse. If anything people are finding Dockside to be a lot more versatile.
I think everyone misunderstand the Proxyless comment. I think the commenter was saying if we are not using proxies to play the best deck we are not really playing trues cdeh where it should be about the skill not the wallet as someone in your comment section recently told me. We should all use proxies is what they were saying.
cEDH is about the best possible deck. Making any downgrades for any reason falls into high power commander. It’s not about gatekeeping because proxy’s exist and should be used in cEDH. I absolutely love owning every card in my deck list. I get that… but I also realize that’s not feasible in cEDH
just wanna say, I have a 500 dollar malcolm kediss list and I have a VERY high successrate against full-power cedh lists. budget is fucking fun as hell.
I don’t think non-partner commanders should get backgrounds because it would be too strong… HOWEVER, that would be a dope theme for an episode some week, just add a background to some of your favorite non-partner decks and see who can make the most broken deck
Got my mat the other day. Looks awesome! T.y.
I suck at guessing power levels. I pretty much play with only two groups and one group I win more often then not and the other group they just stomp the shit out of me. Everyone seems to say their deck is a 7 or 8. So in response I just let them know ahead of time what deck I am playing and then offer to let them look through it so they can determine the power level for themselves. If I win great if I lose oh well as long as I challenged myself to play the best I can in whatever situation I am in.
I play a 150$ cedh styled decks and they run consistently as well as budgetless decks. May not get the higher win rate percentages but still can win easily enough if ur a good enough pilot