Coverts can be hard because people don't see them as clearly as other types. I knew a fella whose cover side was smooth as silk. Very likable, giving, and helpful person at times, but then that's the cover-up that blindsides you from seeing the underneath-- in the beginning at least. I am very leery of their gift-giving now. I have found that generally there are strings attached.
@jim You’re describing a very harmful covert narcissist I work with. 😮💨 Built her whole career on this type of fraudulence and fools most people-the ones she’s capable of keeping at arms’ length, that is.
I appreciate your take on this Cheryl. I found when I needed help with anything that required my N to inconvenience themselves, or make an effort or the slightest sacrifice, the help never came. Healthy people help through thick and thicker... And YOU actually benefit when they express boundaries if they can't help at times.. I'm learning this at long last and your comment definitely helps🙏☀️
The covert brand is arguably the most venomous, because it's so subliminal. Overt narcissism is like the proverbial shot to the head vs covert narcissism- (the slow acting poison.)
You couldn't have described it better between these 2 main categories of narc behaviors👍🏻.I've 👀 a lot of narcs that behave like chameleons behaving in BOTH of these ways depending on the person/⌚/situation...The ones that lean more heavily into the covert behaviors are the worst though because they tend to fool more innocent people initially.You'll still 👀 the more subtle warning signs in not too long...But the trick is that you have to ALREADY be educated about covert narcissism in the 1st place,we still have a problem with awareness about narcissism in general & especially covert narcissistic behavior...Too many people still 💭 that all narcs are grandiose loud-mouths with a lot of overt behaviors.
Absolutely yes!!!! I was accused of being a narcisist in my marriage of over 31 years because of me Reaction to his bad behavior , irresponsiblity, and just the fact that he just loved to get you really upset. Unfortunately , I had no idea what I was dealing with until now. I am the exact opposite of narcisist. I hate conflict, arguements, and upsetting someone. He is the opposite of that , He actually gets off on upsetting people. It’s quite sick. I didn’t know what a passive aggressive covert narcissist was. So I never really even knew this man I spent more than half of my life with. He is the biggest keeper of secrets, lies about everything, constantly doesn’t do what he said he would do, and is very manipulative and deceitful. Had I found out what this PACN was years ago, I would’ve left years ago. Instead I kept holding onto hope , which was a false hope, because never once did he ever do one thing to improve himself. I did plenty of things and he tried sabotaging every one. He used my vulnerablities against me, and there was never any true intimacy in our marriage. How could there be, he’s a phony. I found out he started an affair with our hairdresser who works out of her house, made up all kinds of horrible lies about me, to make her feel so sorry for him. They love to play victim and love the attention they get from making up lies about their spouse. I also find that sick and if a man ever were to approach me and start up about how miserable his wife makes him, I would run like Forest. I feel like I married a chamelion, a fake, phoney , chronic liar. The more I learn about this covert type the more I go hmmm. They are dangerous people because they want to destroy you when you figure them out. Literally he is trying his best to destroy me by the end of this divorce.
Coverts are the types that are implicated in spiking drinks and sexual assault. An American college investigated narcs in the area of sex assaults happening on college campuses, and found covert narcs were more likely to be involved with this type of behaviour. 🤢 🤕 🤮
I think they also love secrets because getting away with things makes them feel smarter than everyone they lie to. Cheating is not as exciting for them if people know, and they will dump their secret mistress instead of upgrading them to a public relationship when their primary relationship falls apart. They loved the intrigue more than they loved her. It was all about the secret, and without it they move on to another devious high with a new set of victims they can do the exact same thing with. Their biggest kink can be getting away with doing something bad, as it makes them feel superior.
I completely agree. My former husband said he got an emotional "rush" when he was being deceitful around cheating. Thank-you for your words because they help me.
Another angle if you will. My husband would do many things for me, giving the impression he genuinely cared. Years later, I found out this was a front as he could give nothing of the heart. He would walk out on me when I needed him most (surgery, illnesses), yet would run out to buy milk or give my car an oil change. When confronted, I would find out I was being punished for something. Much heartache and confusion.
I completely undastand n relate to ur experience. I'm so sry that u endured that torture. N I truly pray that u also embrace this as a lesson n a blessn n let this experience help u get stronger
These exact things have happened to me! It's weird how the CN can seem so giving at times, on their terms, but when I'm in a crisis, nope. He will usually just ignore it, or once in a while, really blow up and get mean.
@@valeriemaltais1782 Really! That and more that I am sure you could never list all. And you are still abused. You are right. 12 years mostly done here and divorced, except for stalking and a move from that one now living a 2 min drive away and I believe I am still recovering from exhaustion.
@@Bawkr You are so right! Ripping the tape off...I will borrow that! It will be so worth it. For me, I worked hard for years and it never seemed the right time. One day when it looked like he was cheating again or probably more like STILL cheating, the anger came into me and I had him leave immediately. Get your things and leave. First he agreed, then actually became defiant (hx of violence in the home, too). I stood up for myself, even put my hand on his back to move him to the door (I don't recommend this boldness). He was passive aggressive with slamming the door each time when taking his things out. Yes it was hard. SO WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL DO IT!!!!!!
100%, they are extremely draining, when they were gone, I realized how long a season was. The absence were these huge holes that I had to fill with normalcy, my goals, responsibilities etc. They are walking demons and vampires nothing more!
I think it's interesting that creatures that are so completely out of control , want to control everything & everyone in their orbit . Such a bizarre dichotomy at play here .
There’s something to be said about how they desperately need to control others, partly (I assume) to make up for what they can’t even control in themselves. Call it a “settle for” a second best plan.
@@aaronkwolfe "...never take your behavioral cues from the person in the situation creating chaos". I so wish they could figure out why no one wants to act like them. Cheers Aaron
Agree with you 100%, Patty! It so bizarre! It’s amazing how (at least for Americans) there are so many words attached to negative connotations. “Control” being one of them. When they cause the chaos crazy conversations, SOMEONE has to “take control” of the “out of control” to bring things back into order so that something/anything can actually be accomplished. Be the one to take control of the out of control conversation, even if asked nicely and kindly for it to stop and watch the fingers get pointed with accusations because they hang on the word “control” as a “bad thing.” It’s absurdity at its best. Try and take back control over one’s own life and get accused of trying to control the narcissist because we no longer will allow them to run all over us. Ridiculous.
Keeping secrets is a double edged sword. Their interrogations and judgments train us to keep details out of our answers. And then glossing over details ignites their paranoia. There just is no healthy communication with them.
I had experienced coverts that gets extra paranoid when there’s no reason to be. Some cry wolf when later I find out it’s not an emergency. Forget about trying to have any authentic convo with them. Take your pick: stonewalling, gaslighting, passive-aggressive, or just plain silent treatment. Let’s not forget their future faking: they keep moving the goal post. Making promises that they can’t keep.
While my (estranged, narcissistic) wife was still covert, she blamed all her paranoia on her Russian heritage. I did a lot of smoothing things out for her back then.
Sadly when I married my ex husband the narcissist; I hadn't a clue what I was dealing with, I always knew something was off but couldn't put my finger on it. In all the 41 years I stayed married to him, not once did he ever compromise, it never happened.
@@melianelson9036 Including dating, almost 40 for me, 34 married. I ignored every red flag, and there were many. People even tried to warn me of her being controlling and manipulative. Until about a year ago, I never even heard of covert narcissism. I have been forced to study this subject so much, I could probably write my own book on the subject.
So spot on, Dr. C, this is especially true when a narcissist mother/father in-law try to gain control over their grown children's households through manipulation.
They always want to know where you're going, who you're talking to, income, job, friends with phone numbers, medical issues and emergency contacts, etc ... Every aspect of your life they feel they are entitled to information about, which if given, is only more ammunition later down the line.
They try to spin yarns or concoct elaborate explanations or excuses when the truth is usually simpler & equally effective. Telling the truth is not taxing on the brain.
Oh I know when I used to tell my parents truth about things they wanted to hide they would look at me crazy like they can’t believe it that someone likes truth it’s wild
Yeah. The truth is their enemy. In contrast to this, how weird is it that they will conspire with one of their flying monkeys to deceive others, yet somehow believe that the flying monkey is trustworthy? Is it because they're telling the same lie?
They hate that you don't need them and lots of them hate and think empaths are selfish because we don't want anything to do with them. We prefer our sanity.
All this does is make me realize how narcissistic I became helping my husband keep his secrets. There's no gaslighting in my life anymore now that we're apart. I was doing it too. He started off covert but as he aged and became severely alcoholic, he lost the ability to stay that way. Most of my healing has been in dropping all those negative traits and misery. I knew I wasn't myself when I was with him.
Maybe you were not narcissistic, maybe you just enabled, as I did. You're clearly reflecting, tho DON'T be too harsh on yourself. Narsasists are masters at making YOU think there's stuff WRONG with YOU, and make you think it's YOUR fault. It ain't necessarily so... Glad you are yourself again. onwards and upwards! Survive and thrive! Good luck to you Janice🙏☀️🍀
Pathological. My ex suffered this abuse from her father and I dealt with it for 15 years. Now I am doing whatever I can to protect my kiddos from this abusive and vicious cycle. Not easy trying to heal and live quietly through an active smear campaign and keep my composure and motivation for them. But I am going to make it happen. And they will be free from this if I can help it.
I’ve been with my cluster b husband for 21 years, a dutiful co-dependent. I did what I could to protect my kids from his behavior. Now I think 3 of my sons are co dependent and are all choosing cluster b women.
@@valeriemaltais1782 Oh, I am so sorry. We often think we are doing the right thing by sacrificing our own happiness, unaware of the lessons we are modelling. Sigh. No judgment. These are impossible situations.
@@valeriemaltais1782 So frustrating when you are able to finally recognize the issues and the abuse that has been endured for so long and you are attempting to heal and then you watch the aftermath all play out with your children as they grow up enduring this now compounded situation. @Toam is correct. The situation really is impossible in so many different ways. Only silver lining (for me) is that I really hope I will be "bullet proof" (emotionally) for the 2nd half of my life. My true love is out there just hope fate leads me to her sooner than later. Thanks to all of you on here as well. Writing this and having fellow souls that understand read and respond is therapeutic gold to me right now. Grateful for you. TF
Dear Lord, Yes! My ex-wife was a grand-master of both stonewalling (emotional secrets) and being secretive (factual secrets). Secret email accounts, a second phone line, a separate Amazon account. But all of that was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the techniques she employed to exercise psychological dominion. I finally said "forget it, I'm just doing me." At the end of our marriage she erupted "You've become like an unbridled horse." That was the most open and honest thing she ever said to me. It was all about control.
They are massive hypocrites. My covert GM would preach early & often in lecture tone the importance of being transparent. & to be an open book. Unfortunately, you can't get beyond the table of contents in his book. It's a New York Times best "No-Teller." Ironically, he hoards critical information as a badge of honor. Also, he, being married w/ kids, never once mentioned, spoke of or presented any photos of his wife & kids, no photos in his office, just a desk, computer, & blank walls. In the 8 years I've worked under him, nobody in the office knows her name or his kids names. He makes it clear that if you're beneath him in title, that info. as well as most other info. is off limits,
This is the Machiavellian side to them as well - power plays - often to keep certain people away from each other, so that they can't share intel ... the means justifying the ends ...
My ex stepfather kept my stepsister and I apart. We new about each other for about 40 years! He would only tell me she'd visited after she'd been and visa versa. Needless to say we eventually met and kept in touch, a bit, and neither of us see him anymore. Both went no contact for our own reasons 🙃 🙂
I’m realizing every narcissist I have been around since my DAD- my birth, have been covert narcissist. These are the ones that seem so darn sincere…. You’ll go to bay for them even against what you know is true!!! You’ll empty your head of brains for them while they smile & watch!!!! Ugh!!! So needy!!! They’ll control you n let it look like your controlling them!!! When you get this- your eyes are open OMG! You’re gonna feel dumb!!! These people present as the most charming sweetest people you’ll ever meet!!! 🤮. Far from the truth!!! You’ll become their puppet fast!!!
Happy New Year Gus 😊I see you’re sticking to your resolution of being calm, undisturbed and at rest ❤🥰. That’s my resolution as well as I embrace a New and Fresh Start!
Maggie M -Thank you for your lovely comment. And Thank you, Dr C for helping us be people of peace. Last but not least, and thank you Gus, for clearly being a dog of peace.
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And yet they can tell you they're going for openness and transparency. Words and actions are not the same. It doesn't add up. Their behaviour does not add up and will not make sence.
Preach, sistah! The contradictory word and actions is the bottom line giveaway for me. How are you btw, Siri?! I’m guessing that card never made it since i hadn’t heard from you?
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Yup. I'm fine thank you.Thank you for asking. I'm taking care of myself. Staying clear in my self🌟 How are you, Kelly Jean? How was your Christmas? And how is your business going? You're right about the card. It hasn't showed up....I don't know what has happened, I just know it's not here. ❄️🌟S
@@siriastridkristensen4272 that really bums me about the card! I will try and send you another soon. I will let you know when it’s on its way. I’ll also ask at the post if they might have an idea what happened to it. I’m glad to hear you’re well and clear 💜! Our holidays were wonderful!!! My daughter worked on the movie, Avatar so it was fun celebrating her and her accomplishments. The business is on its way to getting closer and closer and i am an excited nervous wreck haha! Thx a million for asking, Siri!
That’s the difference, Boundaries vs. Control. And that’s why, given their lack of understanding or even acknowledging their thirst for control, minimum or no contact is the only way to protect oneself. It’s just so sad…
The Ex kept me dysregulated and it showed in 'marriage counseling'. I'm sure the counselor thought I was the problem. It is impossible with a narcissist.
I was very lucky - at least with a couple of counselors I encountered - Step daughter, as she was trying to eliminate me by any means necessary from the family, so she could grab all of her father's Estate without having to divide it between us (I Was the very stupid second wife [now divorced]) deployed, among many things, a smear campaign against me - to ANYONE she thought of - to any and all. So, she went to councelors with her father. Fortunately, after she and her father, having a few "therapy" sessions with the first councelor, telling the councilor that I was evil, etc. - decided to hear my side of what was going on, and invited me to go to counseling with her father/ my husband at that time without including the step daughter in the counseling. It took the counselor 3 sessions with her father and I, without the step daughter present, to figure out what was going on. The councelor asked her father/my husband, at the time, "So, how is it, "M", that your daughter has so much power over you?" And as she asked him/father of step daughter/ my husband at that time that question, her eyes got dark, as if to say - "I don't want to go there, and know the answer to that question that I just asked." (That is, "How is it, that your daughter has so much power over you?") His reaction to the counselor's question was priceless! And - the counselor decided right there, to say, "I don't need to see you anymore "M" for tberapy; I'm continuing with Ruth's therapy, though." So, since that didn't work with the first therapist, step daughter tried to go to another, second therapist to spread her smear campaign, etc. She and her father went to this second therapist and, perhaps because the second therapist was older, and more experienced, the therapist caught on at the very first session where I and step daughter's father/my husband, at that time, had a therapy session, without the step daughter present - and the therapist realized what was going on, right away. That councelor yelled at father/my husband at that time, and said, "I see you're trying to have things both ways - saying one thing, while doing another!!!" (Daughter grabbed power of attorney and was manipulating our/ husband and wife bank accounts, among other things, etc.) And, the councelor, who saw the manipulation of step daughter right away, also said, " You two don't need therapists, you need attorneys, and you, R/ me, should get your own attorney!!! That councelor was quite angry at the apparent manipulations of "M" and, esp. the step daughter, and cut "M" off entirely, from any further therapy sessions, just as the first councelor did. So, Dr.Carter, and Dr. Ramani are the very wonderful examples of what to look for in a councelor or social worker - these two are the Gold Standard of councelors!.
yeah. I went to counseling with my first wife and after working all day in an exhausting job id come home and help out in the home, wash dishes, change diapers, bedtime story... She did not work outside the home. The counselor said I needed to help out around the house more. So then I sent her off on a week long fishing vacation "to get away from her hectic life with the kids" while I stayed home with the babies. The house was never so clean and orderly and it only took me 4 hours per day. The rest was playtime alone with the kids. It was a blast. So the counselor implied that I was the problem and I proved to myself that he became her flying monkey.
@@wisconsinfarmer4742 How did we come so far into a time where marriage counselors became so clever. There's professionalism then there's what has occurred today...'un-professionalism'. Thanks for your story!
@@healthyquadrant6587 That was 40 years ago. I got sole custody a year later by not getting in the way of her party life. Once she got addicted to no responsibility she let me have the kids. And my ulcer went away.
Suck the life out of you is right , I think he gets happiness trying to destroy me. I have been married to one for 30 years. Things are coming to a head. 66 and having to start over, having to go back to work at retirement age. Don't know where I can go or how I can do this. I have been pulled down so far, I have no self-esteem, scared. The only comfort I get is listening to DR. C, I find his voice comforting.
They love mind games. I told mine years ago that if he wants to play mind games then he has to play by himself because I never learned how to play. Of course he found other ways to be manipulative and controlling. I just kept maliabl and fluid to adjust to the changing tactics. He takes away the remote, I watch youtube, he takes away the money, I fix all vegetables. It kills him.
Being in control of yourself is very tough to do being pressured by them. You have to be in tight control of yourself, have boundaries established long before they show up in the horizon. That is what will save you from all their manipulative tactics. It makes it easier to see what's going on.
Keepers of secrets are uber-controlling people and they are very often covert or vulnerable narcisists. They get their ego boost and sense of dominance and control over their victims because they always have plenty of things they know while their victims don’t and they thrive on the sense of tension which such circumstances perpetuate. Thank you for your incredible help and support dr Carter. ❤ God bless you❤
Sneaky. Lying and hiding. My ex hid money and a double life. I'm still shocked. Even as he dies few know him as I do now and I'm sure it's miniscule. He was very quiet and passive aggressive. The Prince. I feel I know the basis of his shame. I have him ways to heal. Now I let go. Yes we are always revealing. Yes I finally let go. I let him have his lies.
I think healthy people don't keep or use secrets in calculated ways against anyone. Being cautious about your vulnerabilities, especially early in a relationship, isn't being secretive, it's just being careful. A narcasistic partner won't see it this way, you have to report back where you are and who you're with 24/7, but they can keep secrets as to where THEY are. Red flag🚩🚩
I am reminded of the movie “Invention to Lie.” Have you seen it? It’s interesting and thought provoking. Anywho, my personal take about secrets is the INTENT to “hide.” Is the intent to harm or help? The thing being hidden- is it mine to hide, or should i share? My take on the matter of secrets certainly isn’t the only take that matters but it’s what i have to go on for the time being.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos nicely said Stampin, that unpacks a tricky topic a little more. I know about the Ricky Gervais film "The invention of lieing" it's supposed to be a comedy tho I thought it a bit weird. To respond to your point, there's also the way of "deceit", which is done with mal intent. Also "twisting the story".. So you (or someone else) get told a version of something which ain't necessarily so. Quite uncomfortable to write about, actually... I grew up believing everyone to be honest and decent. My epic bad on that one. Take care Stampin 🙏☀️
@@sturobertson6791 exactly… like i said… to help, or harm. That deceit you speak of certainly falls on the harm side of intent. I agree about the movie. I was ready to laugh but ended up pondering way more than i cared to after watching. I think i may have been reminded of this particular movie because i can’t help but wonder- can you imagine if a narcissist spoke truth ALL the time and not just when they were ticked off at us like when your nex decided she was the authority over how you changed the gas bottle. (I am replying to that comment after replying to this one btw.) I i imagine them saying things like… “I’m upset and it’s all your fault.” I mean they already basically say those things… we just have to read between the lines. Anywho… you take care too, Stu!
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Hi Stampin. Yes! More nails you hit there... Help or harm... That describes the difference between our reality and their "reality" a healthy person's default state of intent is to help... We feel vvv uncomfortable when we know we've made an error and caused harm... To actually INTEND harm would put us in their world. In the first year or so of my relationship with my nex (I'm beginning to not like that word)... I was puzzled as to why she said VERY frequently "I don't tell lies". Also, her parents and brothers, unprompted, would say "Our daughter never lies / My sister doesn't lie... I remain puzzled to this day.... It's something I don't understand, maybe about " conditioning" between the Narc and their family You said..".. Imagine if they told the truth all the time... That's some thought!.. They'd have to be truthful to THEMSELVES first. And ten million out of ten for you to be able to answer 2 comments at once! 👏😊 Cheers Stampin. Happy thoughts to you💭👍🙏☀️
@@AlwaysStampinVideos I also meant to include your point when you said... "I'm upset and it's all your fault.." Totally agree... What I got a lot was "I'm angry because of you.." That then grew into... "My life is f***ed up because of you" I've digressed from" secrets" to "lies they tell themselves".. Much to ponder!! Take care Stampin, hope your day is a good one👍🙏☀️
Your posts are always very timely, especially after, and before the fall out of a narcissistic relationship. So many nuggets about control, Dr. C. Appreciate your weekly posts.
what about x husband when we were dating .. who he expressed about how a hard life was for him and it all the fault his parents and siblings and their x wife .. ect ect he was innocent and poor him. feel sorry for him .. blah blah blah .. what i did not know then ,.. what i know now ... he is a covert narcissistic .. and that covert narcissist act like he is the victims all the his SOB stories and However when you asked them questions about their past,.. what his parents so abusive to you and when he told me .he threw teh chair across the living room floor when they argued .. and asked him why he did that and my EX-HUSBAND SAY HE DOESN'T REMEMBERED . THAT'S TELLING THE HALF TRUTH .. JUST LIKE WHEN I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS EX-WIFE HE COMPLAINS ABOUT HER SO MUCH ( she moved on with another man married ) and yet .. .. HOW SHE WAS SO MEAN TO HIM AND HE SAID I DON'T REMEMBERED,. its selective Amnesia in the past,.. yeah right .. my EX IS CERTAIN A SECRET NARCISSISTIC COVERT CONTROL... if i only knew then .. sigh ..
We go into these relationships with compassion and nurturing because women have gotten a raw deal in the past, but we keep getting punished for being close to them.Nothing is good enough It is not so personal as it is proximal.
The secret keepers- the private people!!! “We’ll I’m just a private person“ even in a close relationship- nope, you’re just a covert narcissist playing your game”!!!
Yes my narcissistic husband did the taxes late didn’t tell me how much the return was than blame me for using it to fix my dryer it was only for 480.00 he always accuses me of stealing his money I don’t steal his money. It’s right there on the damn checkbook are used to pay the bills. I can’t wait to get away from him. He blamed me for not telling him but every time I do tell him anything he screams at me and blames me for a bunch of lies. Basically that never happened. How do you supposed to talk to somebody like that? Why would I tell you something when when I do tell you things you scream at me why would I bother to talk to you at all lies to me constantly tells me half truths. I never know what’s going on and I’m the liar!! I got screamed that I was a liar for an hour and a half.
That sounds like a pattern of behaviour. Definitely feel for you, I think many people here would say it could be time to evaluate your options. Good luck I hope things get better for you🙏☀️
Their favorite thing to do is project their faults and behaviors onto you. I guess it's their way to deal with their guilt and shame. Dump it on someone else to get a relief.
Wow Dr. Les, you really said it here. Just when I think I've got the key video on the topic, you come out with yet another one with even more insights! Thank you for everything you've said here. Very helpful. Best New Year's wishes to you!
Thank you...Thank you....Thank you Dr. C....😉😄 Boy....narcs DONT LIKE IT WHEN ONE SETS BOUNDARIES with them....BUT....its perfectly ok if they run all over you !!! I set boundaries with my narc sis and bro... their hoppin' mad and totally dissowned me... Im better off...no more craziness... 💖💖💖🤗😉😊
It makes me sadder when siblings fall out than when I read about broken marriages, for some reason. Sad for the kids, though. Hopefully, you’ve done the healthier thing for yourself. Hopefully, the siblings’ values improve someday. Stay well (& sane)!
@@ahnraemenkhera7451 Thank you... My children have told me for years my sis and bro are insane...control freaks...guess i finally listened. ....🤷🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ No sibling relationship is better than a narc one... Thanks for the encouragement !💖
@@dewuknowHIM You betcha! BE encouraged. No siblings on my part, but I’ve worked UNDER & (mistakenly?) befriended many Narcs. We, underlings used to call them “crazy-makers.” They cause lasting damage & they never self-correct. Even when conditions change, they cannot, without help, because their brains are abnormal at generating empathy, guilt, etc. It’s a form of autism, really, in that “it’s their own world,” & their “ego” equals all emotional reference-to themselves. But be safe. Avoid the “flying monkey armies.” Choose health (& distance) for yourself & be a hardliner for your boundaries. I, too, had to learn tools to say: “Let me call you back,” & “I have to interrupt, because…” or “I’ll have to get back to you another time, Wednesday at 7?” (Narcs HATE it when you “schedule them!”) But if they don’t keep the appointment, it’s usually so they can impress you with some Very Impressive Nonsense you won’t have anything to do with. They ALL lead SUCH Big Lives, it’s best to stay well OUT. If you do call on time, keep it brief. If you keep them on schedule, they’ll fizzle eventually. They need dramatic effects, not routine. Routine exhausts them. At first, I felt like Johnny Carson. “We’ve got to take a break here,…” But now, I spot those tendencies & traits & ZAPP! I’m outta that WEB! Happy NEW Health, & Best Wishes, HattulKavel-NarcFree in ‘23! ☺️😊🤫😂 🥂🪷🐰
I saw the narcissist's secret-keeping as deliberately denying me the information that I needed to decide to leave. I never put the label "control" on it, but I see that. The secret-keeping narcissist hid his addiction until he began to unravel.
Nicely said. Same for me. And when I found out about the addictions (alcohol , pot and coke).. the severity of them was still hidden. When I tried to "help".. It made not a jot of difference
@@sturobertson6791 Same for me. I was desperate to help him, but he denied that he had a problem. He even fooled professionals. As I have learned about the dynamics of narcissism I do see a lack of information on the direct connection of narcissism and addiction. Best to you, Stu.
Yes, the narc I spent 8.5 years with Deliberately kept information from me, and would say to Me " You don't need to know," or " It's my business quit being so nosy," when I just asked him what he was doing for the evening or had done the prior weekend ... And often he WOULD tell me at some point later ( and it was always something dumb or ordinary ) but he LOVED to keep me on edge, wondering and dysregulated. He KNEW it triggered me so did it Deliberately. When I completely ended things on 11-30- 2022, I said to him, " Now you don't have to hide or deny me knowing you more deeply, I won't be " bothering you" with my queries, because NOW Toad ( todd) I no longer give a f***. Bye. Be happy with no one having any interest in whether you live or die." And I blocked him. And Mr. " I don't need you, you're lucky I'm in your life" has gotten 3 new phone #'s and repeatedly attempted contact, baiting, future faking .. But, no. There's not even a trauma bond remaining. Once I'm done, I'm done. 👋👋🙌🤡
@@malibu90265 Hi J W. I think you've raised an interesting point about the link between N and addiction. I sometimes listen to Lisa A Romano on another YT channel, and she often talks about N's and addictions. All the best to you too J W... I'm surviving and thriving with you! 😢☀️
Great video Dr. C. Yes, and when you uncover a secret, they act like we should’ve known, or if bad enough, then they stonewall and act hurt. Impossible to have a true relationship with them.
And in a nutshell you're describing my entire family. It does make me sad you know? I'll probably spend the rest of my life trying to get rid of their narcissistic ghosts. But I'm okay with that it's all I have.
@@chipchippie Chip, I'm hearing you.. But the rest of your life is for you to be free, fulfilled, joyous, peaceful, content, growing, moving forward, creating lovely healthy relationships, looking forward, enjoyment, living a life of DRC... Put them ghosts in a compartment in your mind and only get those memories out when it's good and convenient for you.. Good luck Chip. TH got your back!! 👍🙏☀️🍀
This is something that only becomes really clear in retrospect. My sister had an outwardly gregarious, funny, outgoing persona. We live at opposite ends of the country, so I didn't see her, but we talked on the phone every other week (I was almost always the one who called her). After our break, when I began to realize she was a narcissist, odd things about her came back to bother me. One was that I knew almost nothing about her personal, romantic life. I don't mean details about sex; I mean that I still don't know to this day if she ever had a marriage proposal (she's 59 and I'm 63). Is it wrong to think that a sibling would tell a thing like that? Maybe there never was one, but that in itself is odd, because she's always been attractive, and I would have thought she was quite a catch when she was young. Meanwhile, my life (married with 3 special needs children) was pretty much an open book. I was always talking about things my kids and family did, and she tended to ask questions that I now realize were a bit too personal - infringing boundaries. I felt uncomfortable, but stupidly would still answer, but what I didn't realize until later was that there was a huge imbalance in openness, and that's probably the biggest warning flag.
I definitely agree on the imbalance of openness/sharing. Since i don’t have other details about your relationship with your sis, i can’t really answer your question about whether or not intimacy issues are something all sisters share. I certainly never felt comfortable sharing those kinds of things with my sister. We weren’t in contact with one another the way you and your sis were though. For me personally, sharing the intimate issues is something i personally wouldn’t do regardless. Coverts usually glean information about you so that they can either use it against you or use it to somehow manipulate you and/or any given situation. That’s definitely been the case for me personally. Lesson learned, never tell all. Maybe your sis has been burned herself by some narcissist and it’s caused her to not feel comfortable sharing details about her own life. Like i said, i don’t know because i don’t know other details to your situation. I do know what it feels like to be on a one sided effort relationship. It’s exhausting to be the one to always call and always share and then hope against hope they will some day do the same. Sending you a cyber hug and freedom vibes! Once i finally stopped wishful thinking what i gave would eventually come back to me, freedom and peace is what i received.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Thanks! I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but one problem of living in an abnormal situation is not realizing that it IS abnormal. I literally don't know what a normal sibling relationship is like, so I'm left guessing. Do other people talk to their siblings about such-and-such? Is this over the line, or does everyone do it? Maybe that's why going no contact was such a relief; I no longer have to tap dance in the dark anymore!
Tap dance in the dark... That's a great phrase that tells your story. Wanda and Stampin, I think your comments here are super helpful... There's something special happens in the learning part of my brain when I read words that are so honest and touch on your vulnerabilities... It's a privilege, and I think that triggers learning for me. Bless you both... Kind thoughts for both of you🙏☀️☀️🙏
Funny how my Malignant sister Never told me a thing about herself. I was not one to share anything but superficial stuff after someone did a zinger on me once, they had short leashes after that. She was always bitching about people being obsessive but I soon realized it was her that WAS OBSESSIVE. Pot calling the kettle black, LOL. I have, now that mom died, shut my brother and sister totally out of my life, all but the few thoughts of if only they were different that I would have a better situation concerning being around them, but nope. malignant is malignant. never changes. That leopard will be a unicorn before she changes. She is 9years older than me and never liked me thanks to mom's crap fest with all of us at one time or another. My brother is her flying Monkey and his wife is along for the ride. Nope never again will we probably cross paths. Definitely NOT in their soul group if we ever reincarnate again. I would rather take my chances as a frog instead of a toady to any of the three. Really sad part of that is they taught their kids to carry on, and carry off anything that is not nailed down. When Mom died, well, you get the picture and it was not a Norman Rockwell Painting for sure, LOL. and me as the
I’m leaving my husband. I just picked up my apartment keys. And he’ll have no idea until he comes home one day soon and the house will be empty. He had taxes on his income to pay, and he had it sent to collections instead-and that means my name as well, cause it was a given I had to sign the tax papers filing jointly. I’ve got to go mop now because for 21 years he has never lifted a finger to do chores.
My narc hadn't filed income tax in ten years when I met him. I helped get it straightened out, but we separated for four years (long story as to why I'm back) and once again he stopped filing. The correspondence from the IRS is not friendly, and I think he's in deep do-do, but there's nothing I can do this time. Luckily we lived together and didn't marry or I'd be stuck with his problem too.
Hi Dr. C.....could you go into the brain damage caused by long term narcissistic abuse and what can be done to overcome it. I didn't even realize that this was a thing and all of the symptoms fit me to a tee. I really need help and I need to know more than anything that there is hope for people like me.
Hi Amber I just read your comment and I am really hearing and feeling your anguish. You've asked a very specific question, and I hope you get an answer from an appropriate professional. May I offer my take on it?... Narsasistic abuse affects people in many different ways. Among these is utter confusion, a lack of trust in yourself and your thinking, and an overwhelming feeling that there is something WRONG with you.. Narsasists get satisfaction from making you feel this way. Unless and until we heal sufficiently, it may well be that we BELIEVE we have suffered brain damage Lisa A Romano, on another YT channel, uses the phrase "mashed potato" to describe how Narsasists make our brains feel. Keep watching, listening, reading and learning here... I hope (like I have) you will become UN CONFUSED... for me, I began to think more clearly, be ame more confident in various ways, including trusting my thinking and my decisions. I have no clue if this will help you.. If you need medical or therapeutic help you should do that... But I DO know that there are people here who have been desperately damaged, and are now healing, surviving and thriving.. Best of luck Amber, kind thoughts for you🙏☀️🙏
@Stu Robertson thank you for the hope you have given me. I'm taking small steps towards overcoming the effects the abuse my narcissistic brother and others have inflicted on me. It's a process, and it helps to know I am not alone. Thank you 😊
@@amber-turner Amber you are very much not alone. People here on TH are real, and really supportive, and really knowledgeable. Reach out when you need to. And trust yourself, you are precious and amazing and you're the only one of you in the world. You are WORTH making the effort for... You are NOT alone, no way. Wishing you tons of good stuff! 🙏☀️👍🙏
I am so thankful for your videos. I continue to learn how I've been decieved & manipulated by so many narcissists. At 60 yrs old, I'm tired of being treated with disrespect and manipulated. Narcissists are very good at lying, manipulating, cheating & just plain evil. Thanks again, Dr. C. (Love seeing Gus in each discussion). 😊 🐾
You begin to realize that you collect narcissists all around you. I really saw the malignant narcissists but was confused by the covert types. It wasn't until I was working with a covert narcissist that I started watching Dr. C and Dr. Ramani that I began to realize what was going on in other areas of my life. I am now on the road to recovery!! I too have decided that I am not going to take it anymore!! Stay strong Cindy!!
It’s horrible when you spend time getting to know a potential mate only to find out that they’re covert about who they truly are in private, especially when they know you know. It’s actual abuse or quickly becomes abusive due to their panic that others might find out.
I always thought something was off, then second guessed my thoughts, I always felt there was something secret, money, drugs or phone......I suppose I'll never know...all I know was my gut wasnt right, I thought it was me due to my past bad experiences,,,I tried to be everything he wanted especially in bed, even when I hated it......but that was my fault, I shouldve been stronger to say no.........
At first I thought the lies were only about "wrongdoings". Then I realised they also lie about normal stuff (that they didn't need to lie about)... But it took me forever to figure out they lie most about "who they are"
Yuuup! Well said, Stu. The secrets aren’t always about sexual encounters or money or “wrongdoings.” For some, just keeping the secret of their not wanting to dig deep inside themselves to discover past hurts as the reason why they inflict pain onto others is the greatest secret of all.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos When we were still together I discovered coke "hidden" in a drawer. I left it there and sat down with my partner and said something like "can we just sit here a while and have a really nice honest chat" , and I poured me heart out about a few things about MY flaws and vulnerable spots, and asked as reasonably as I could if she was still doing coke. I haven't forgotten it.... She looked deep into both my eyes, paused, and said slowly, no I don't, I've deleted all those numbers, and if I did, I'd tell you.... I'm thinking now when she was looking into my eyes, what she was seeing was her own reflection.... It's not a nice feeling being lied to like that..... Cheers Stampin, peace and honesty! 🙏☀️
@@sturobertson6791 After my marriage broke up, I learned that a person who hates you can look at you with warmth in his eyes and act friendly, but it was just an act for the other person who was present. I had no idea that I had been married to such a good actor.
@@faithworks217 Hi Earlana. Unfortunately toxic or narcasistic or abusive people CAN be good actors. That's exactly how they get away with it for so long and we fall for it. So sorry you've experienced this too. I hope you are out of it, free recovering, and finding happier times🙏☀️
Learning that keeping secrets and lying outwardly isn’t ‘a boundary’ and instead it’s a leverage of control is eye-opening and a relief….I always felt like they wouldn’t let me know them and we couldn’t bond. This explains it fully. Thank you so much for this video!!
This is SO helpful. Converts can be the most dangerous. However I think we all have some amount of this inside us. Sometimes it takes another narcissist to bring it out and make us see, and change our own ways :(
I don't know if you ever visit AL, but I swear I saw you or your look alike yesterday. Thank you for the education. It has helped me avoid a lot of narcissistic pitfalls lately.
The Keeper of the Secrets! That is what I accused my spouse of! It's less his own stuff and more stuff that pertains to the world around us, our kids, his family, stuff that happens in the community or his work (he's a cop). He'll make it known that he has information, and then I am supposed to ask 1,000 questions that meet his qualifications as he "leaks" out tiny pieces of the information at a time. Even then I will only get part of the information, and often times, if it has to do with our children or family or friends, it will be twisted in a way to make insecure about how those people feel about me. He also has total control of the money, tells me I'm making him go broke for 6 months straight, and then flip and say "yeah, since we've been separated I've got more money in the savings than I ever have, not to say something hurtful or anything" WTF?!? but I know what the deal is, so I don't let it bother me anymore unless my kids tell him things to tell me. I've had to tell them numerous times if there is something I need to know, they are not to filter it through the Keeper of the Secrets.
I had a co-worker that like to keep secrets and would feed me little bits of information. Years later, I caught him in a lie over a work assignment that I got screwed over on. I called him out on it and got our boss involved. His punishment for me.....The Silent Treatment. When I retired a short time later, he didnt have the decency to wish me good luck or anything. I caused a Narcissist Injury and looks like I got a lifetime punishment of the silent treatment. Good riddance.
Wow! I have Been told numerous times over 8 1/2 years that I only need to know what he tells me about his day to day… his life Otherwise he keeps me isolated from his’ Life’ ,On social media etc … has been 8 1/2 years in a relationship with only what he determines I need to know
Does their need for control live in the same place as their need for privacy? My husband has always been very private…doesn’t want to talk about it…feels that if he says what he really thinks it would hurt me…says he wants to protect me from that hurt…yet, by him never telling me anything real, he is hurting me. And now in our retirement, he is here underfoot, old and grumpy, won’t do anything with other guys unless it’s with our kids or grandkids--where he is THE MAN! The captain of the fishing boat…etc. He has no need or desire to do guy things..sports, etc..and he depends on me for companionship. I am done with that. But, can anyone explain what this isolating is about? Another attempt at control?
This was my covert narc ex's MO for sure. So many secrets. Would do everything in her power to avoid sharing what she is doing in her life and hide aspects of the people in her life (i.e. exes that are "friends" but she wouldn't mention they were exes).
8:25 We normal folks think the Narcs are needy, but to them we're the needy ones for asking them to have empathy and etc. \: | "Just accommodate me; what's the big deal? Gee you're such a needy person (for wanting me to be empathic).
My husband & I have been together for 13yrs, we have a house, a kid, & he’s a very closed book. I don’t know anything about his finances. A couple weeks ago we went to the store on a Friday, just for conversation purposes I asked him if he had gotten paid. Without answering yes or no, he began screaming at me “WHY? WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW THAT! WHY? HUH?” I was so taken aback by his angry response. I gave up trying to have any sort of conversation with him for the rest of the night. Sadly his angry outbursts are becoming more & more the norm. I’m over this relationship. I want out.
They gather information and whisper the tale differently to others. They make you the messenger to convey what they want, knowing it will create tension and arguments. Their hands are “clean”, so to speak.
ONE strategy that works pretty well is to say ‘Let me interrupt a minute…’ when it becomes clear that they are bringing you gossip content. Then, you can tell them WHY you’ve decided not to hear people’s confidentials, personals, family/office politics, etc. At the least, they’ll have to come up with another “strategy,” usually, by asking you to “help” them with something/someone else. (Don’t fall for that one either, just “forget” to get back to them.) At worst, they may drop you from their call list, which is a short-term “win,” but at least you get time to begin distancing. If you consistently disengage (as nicely as possible) they may just stop popping up altogether. TIME (between chats) is the key. Hope the tip helps. 🌱
I love the information you share in all of your videos. Unfortunately it all sounds very familiar. I was wondering if you could do some videos that specifically talk about co-parenting with a narcissist.
I have every right to be pessimistic about all relationships. I have been singled out repeatedly and treated dismissively by almost everyone I meet. I am not in control of their behaviour. They all behave as if they know me and there's a false story in their minds. I can never get it across that what they have in their heads is not me.
None of us is obliged to make them better persons, that's up to them. I'm sure they know the difference between good and bad and they choose consciously.
My narcissist suffers from my reactive abuse, and therefore accuses me of being a rotten person. For a long time I believed I was a hypocrite because of his evaluation. But I'm a substitute teacher, and so many kids hug me and tell me how much they love me, and I had a long talk with another teacher in Walmart the other day, and she actually said I am an angel among people because I was helping her with some trauma she was going through. But I still live with the narcissist (still 20 years married) and when I'm with him, I'm constantly judged. If I react to his ridiculous behavior, I'm justifying that I'm an unstable and mean person. But I'm not! I know I'm not!
I believe it's called baiting. They bait you with critical & abusive behaviors to get your reaction so they can play the victim when you attempt to defend yourself. When I started calling my narc out for this behavior it would send her into a rage while I learned to not react, just call it out as it was happening.
Yeah, when you react and they criticize you for it, they’re manipulating you so you’re disharmed. I could not stay… I’m sorry you have to deal with that!!! My sibling used to love to do that. I call it trigger baiting, first thing in the morning, he would say some unbelievably f ckd up thing to me: racist, sexist, you name it and when I react, I’d get in trouble as a child and when I was older, I tried not to react bc he was a sadistic lil devil and I caught his game. So what he did was found other methods, have other ppl who I don’t talk to attack me as a person.
@@samie7025 Sounds like my narc older brother, now 67, l have had enough, l can't believe l stuck it so long, giving him chances, well l am done now, after the latest baiting at Christmas, in my house!! Here is to all of us healing.
@@amandaroberts5111 🥂 Word! 🥲😭💔 It hurts to hear other ppl go through this, but glad when they get out of it. Narcissists so need to remain in therapy, change and do better too.
@@samie7025 , only if they choose therapy. My narc husband of 35+ years says he doesn’t need therapy. The denial is strong. I gray rock, laugh, and walk away when he starts the blame and shame game. I’m slowly learning, through Dr. C and Team Healthy, who I am! My self-esteem is coming back, and hopefully, my health will too. 🙏🙏
Not only the tax bill went to collections, I only know because I was in the basement and read his mail. He hasn’t told me he didn’t pay it and we’re both at collections.
I think I'm going to have to watch this one a few times. I've carried the "Why" question for YEARS because it all just makes no sense to me. But I'm not sure even with the understanding of it all that it will set right in my heart or my mind. The thing that I can't wrap my brain around is that they are self depriving themselves for a fake feeling. A victim of themselves!
I experienced this multiple times in my last 6 year LTR. I was recently just discarded (the final one). As I will never go back. In hindsight I was devalued and experienced reconciling so many times over the six years. I used to get lectured on how being open was a weak trait and strong men keep secrets for their partners. It was confusing and made me question myself. I never felt right about it.
So true . Shame driven. Addiction to many things. I’m so aware of the so called recovery time. Has happened over & over. A commitment to secrets This has helped so much in healing TY
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Coverts can be hard because people don't see them as clearly as other types. I knew a fella whose cover side was smooth as silk. Very likable, giving, and helpful person at times, but then that's the cover-up that blindsides you from seeing the underneath-- in the beginning at least. I am very leery of their gift-giving now. I have found that generally there are strings attached.
With them., there is no such thing as doing something for nothing. There is Always an ulterior motive!
@jim You’re describing a very harmful covert narcissist I work with. 😮💨 Built her whole career on this type of fraudulence and fools most people-the ones she’s capable of keeping at arms’ length, that is.
I appreciate your take on this Cheryl. I found when I needed help with anything that required my N to inconvenience themselves, or make an effort or the slightest sacrifice, the help never came.
Healthy people help through thick and thicker... And YOU actually benefit when they express boundaries if they can't help at times.. I'm learning this at long last and your comment definitely helps🙏☀️
Definitely the gift is a desperate attempt to win you back!
Wow! 4 adult children who ignore me; explained in a Nutshell; they would rather take photo of Food than be in the picture with me. WOW!
The covert brand is arguably the most venomous, because it's so subliminal. Overt narcissism is like the proverbial shot to the head vs covert narcissism- (the slow acting poison.)
Overt is obvious and easy to identify and excuse yourself or disengage immediately....the covert is hard to identify until the damage is done
Overts are like a shark coming at you. You can see its Fin. Coverts are snake in the grass people...and filled with poison.
You couldn't have described it better between these 2 main categories of narc behaviors👍🏻.I've 👀 a lot of narcs that behave like chameleons behaving in BOTH of these ways depending on the person/⌚/situation...The ones that lean more heavily into the covert behaviors are the worst though because they tend to fool more innocent people initially.You'll still 👀 the more subtle warning signs in not too long...But the trick is that you have to ALREADY be educated about covert narcissism in the 1st place,we still have a problem with awareness about narcissism in general & especially covert narcissistic behavior...Too many people still 💭 that all narcs are grandiose loud-mouths with a lot of overt behaviors.
Absolutely yes!!!! I was accused of being a narcisist in my marriage of over 31 years because of me Reaction to his bad behavior , irresponsiblity, and just the fact that he just loved to get you really upset. Unfortunately , I had no idea what I was dealing with until now. I am the exact opposite of narcisist. I hate conflict, arguements, and upsetting someone. He is the opposite of that , He actually gets off on upsetting people. It’s quite sick. I didn’t know what a passive aggressive covert narcissist was. So I never really even knew this man I spent more than half of my life with. He is the biggest keeper of secrets, lies about everything, constantly doesn’t do what he said he would do, and is very manipulative and deceitful. Had I found out what this PACN was years ago, I would’ve left years ago. Instead I kept holding onto hope , which was a false hope, because never once did he ever do one thing to improve himself. I did plenty of things and he tried sabotaging every one. He used my vulnerablities against me, and there was never any true intimacy in our marriage. How could there be, he’s a phony. I found out he started an affair with our hairdresser who works out of her house, made up all kinds of horrible lies about me, to make her feel so sorry for him. They love to play victim and love the attention they get from making up lies about their spouse. I also find that sick and if a man ever were to approach me and start up about how miserable his wife makes him, I would run like Forest. I feel like I married a chamelion, a fake, phoney , chronic liar. The more I learn about this covert type the more I go hmmm. They are dangerous people because they want to destroy you when you figure them out. Literally he is trying his best to destroy me by the end of this divorce.
Coverts are the types that are implicated in spiking drinks and sexual assault. An American college investigated narcs in the area of sex assaults happening on college campuses, and found covert narcs were more likely to be involved with this type of behaviour. 🤢 🤕 🤮
I think they also love secrets because getting away with things makes them feel smarter than everyone they lie to. Cheating is not as exciting for them if people know, and they will dump their secret mistress instead of upgrading them to a public relationship when their primary relationship falls apart. They loved the intrigue more than they loved her. It was all about the secret, and without it they move on to another devious high with a new set of victims they can do the exact same thing with. Their biggest kink can be getting away with doing something bad, as it makes them feel superior.
I completely agree. My former husband said he got an emotional "rush" when he was being deceitful around cheating. Thank-you for your words because they help me.
Always fishing for information yet they provide the least amount of self disclosure. KNOWLEDGE = POWER
Done in a very covert manner
That's a major red flag!
Absolutely 💯
Oh yeah, very well put!
That's my father.
I used to think that by being open and honest I was showing them that it is ok to be open and honest.
Another angle if you will.
My husband would do many things for me, giving the impression he genuinely cared. Years later, I found out this was a front as he could give nothing of the heart. He would walk out on me when I needed him most (surgery, illnesses), yet would run out to buy milk or give my car an oil change. When confronted, I would find out I was being punished for something. Much heartache and confusion.
I completely undastand n relate to ur experience. I'm so sry that u endured that torture. N I truly pray that u also embrace this as a lesson n a blessn n let this experience help u get stronger
These exact things have happened to me! It's weird how the CN can seem so giving at times, on their terms, but when I'm in a crisis, nope. He will usually just ignore it, or once in a while, really blow up and get mean.
It’s really a heartbreak when it’s your mother
@@ashleyfowler1776 I'm so sorry...my mom was horrific, too.
So needy, drama producing, never can please them enough and draining of the very life out of you. So much truth said here. Thank you!
Indeed. There's no winning having them in your life best to move on, rip the tape off. Can't wait working very hard to get free.
You could work 17 hours a day in and outside the house, do all the shopping and cooking 7 days a week, and you’ll still be the one they can’t stand.
@@valeriemaltais1782 Really! That and more that I am sure you could never list all. And you are still abused. You are right. 12 years mostly done here and divorced, except for stalking and a move from that one now living a 2 min drive away and I believe I am still recovering from exhaustion.
@@Bawkr You are so right! Ripping the tape off...I will borrow that! It will be so worth it. For me, I worked hard for years and it never seemed the right time. One day when it looked like he was cheating again or probably more like STILL cheating, the anger came into me and I had him leave immediately. Get your things and leave. First he agreed, then actually became defiant (hx of violence in the home, too). I stood up for myself, even put my hand on his back to move him to the door (I don't recommend this boldness). He was passive aggressive with slamming the door each time when taking his things out. Yes it was hard. SO WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL DO IT!!!!!!
100%, they are extremely draining, when they were gone, I realized how long a season was. The absence were these huge holes that I had to fill with normalcy, my goals, responsibilities etc. They are walking demons and vampires nothing more!
I think it's interesting that creatures that are so completely out of control , want to control everything & everyone in their orbit . Such a bizarre dichotomy at play here .
Yep! Well said Texas... And did you get called a control freak? I did, all the time... Crazy🙏☀️👍
@@sturobertson6791 ..control freak , OCD , neat freak ..just freaky all together 🤷🤷🤷👍
There’s something to be said about how they desperately need to control others, partly (I assume) to make up for what they can’t even control in themselves. Call it a “settle for” a second best plan.
@@aaronkwolfe "...never take your behavioral cues from the person in the situation creating chaos".
I so wish they could figure out why no one wants to act like them. Cheers Aaron
Agree with you 100%, Patty! It so bizarre! It’s amazing how (at least for Americans) there are so many words attached to negative connotations. “Control” being one of them. When they cause the chaos crazy conversations, SOMEONE has to “take control” of the “out of control” to bring things back into order so that something/anything can actually be accomplished. Be the one to take control of the out of control conversation, even if asked nicely and kindly for it to stop and watch the fingers get pointed with accusations because they hang on the word “control” as a “bad thing.” It’s absurdity at its best. Try and take back control over one’s own life and get accused of trying to control the narcissist because we no longer will allow them to run all over us. Ridiculous.
“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.” ✨☘️🙏✨☘️🙏
That is a great way of thinking. I absolutely 💯 agree 👍
@@amandaliverpool3374 Thank you for your brilliant feedback, Amanda. Hope life's treating you extremely well, now, these times God bless you ✨☘️🙏
@@evelina787 I'm relatively well thanks. You're comment is short and, refreshingly, to the point. Take care 🙏
Keeping secrets is a double edged sword. Their interrogations and judgments train us to keep details out of our answers. And then glossing over details ignites their paranoia. There just is no healthy communication with them.
I had experienced coverts that gets extra paranoid when there’s no reason to be. Some cry wolf when later I find out it’s not an emergency. Forget about trying to have any authentic convo with them. Take your pick: stonewalling, gaslighting, passive-aggressive, or just plain silent treatment. Let’s not forget their future faking: they keep moving the goal post. Making promises that they can’t keep.
And they make promises that they know they won't keep...Empty gestures of goodwill 🙏
@@amandaliverpool3374 yes, Amanda💯🎯. Empty alright or just full of hot air with that smirk🤥
@@SewDiva5691 Cringe worthy 😬
While my (estranged, narcissistic) wife was still covert, she blamed all her paranoia on her Russian heritage. I did a lot of smoothing things out for her back then.
@@aaronkwolfeAh, so she admitted some sort of imperfection. Of course, It's never their fault 🙄
The only thing they tell you about past relationships is how awful the other person was, how much they themselves were victims.
Sadly when I married my ex husband the narcissist; I hadn't a clue what I was dealing with, I always knew something was off but couldn't put my finger on it. In all the 41 years I stayed married to him, not once did he ever compromise, it never happened.
Like living in a Twilight Zone episode. 36 yrs for me!
Yes, I've been here 31 almost & have my eyes open. Just how to deal with it is what I need.
@@melianelson9036 Including dating, almost 40 for me, 34 married. I ignored every red flag, and there were many. People even tried to warn me of her being controlling and manipulative. Until about a year ago, I never even heard of covert narcissism. I have been forced to study this subject so much, I could probably write my own book on the subject.
40years !!
So spot on, Dr. C, this is especially true when a narcissist mother/father in-law try to gain control over their grown children's households through manipulation.
Their afraid to find out how normal they really are. Their not that special !
Yes, they LOVE their secrets, don't they? Their entitlement is beyond belief.
Entitled to do anything they feel like. So crazy 😧
They always want to know where you're going, who you're talking to, income, job, friends with phone numbers, medical issues and emergency contacts, etc ... Every aspect of your life they feel they are entitled to information about, which if given, is only more ammunition later down the line.
Totally!! Well said!
Narcissists fear people who are honest and openminded. They're so scared.
They try to spin yarns or concoct elaborate explanations or excuses when the truth is usually simpler & equally effective. Telling the truth is not taxing on the brain.
Good cause that’s who I am.
Oh I know when I used to tell my parents truth about things they wanted to hide they would look at me crazy like they can’t believe it that someone likes truth it’s wild
It's TRUE! One honest statement could mess up years of deception!🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂 heck yeah it's hilarious, watching them backpedal!
Yeah. The truth is their enemy. In contrast to this, how weird is it that they will conspire with one of their flying monkeys to deceive others, yet somehow believe that the flying monkey is trustworthy? Is it because they're telling the same lie?
They hate that you don't need them and lots of them hate and think empaths are selfish because we don't want anything to do with them. We prefer our sanity.
All this does is make me realize how narcissistic I became helping my husband keep his secrets. There's no gaslighting in my life anymore now that we're apart. I was doing it too. He started off covert but as he aged and became severely alcoholic, he lost the ability to stay that way. Most of my healing has been in dropping all those negative traits and misery.
I knew I wasn't myself when I was with him.
Maybe you were not narcissistic, maybe you just enabled, as I did.
You're clearly reflecting, tho DON'T be too harsh on yourself. Narsasists are masters at making YOU think there's stuff WRONG with YOU, and make you think it's YOUR fault.
It ain't necessarily so...
Glad you are yourself again. onwards and upwards! Survive and thrive! Good luck to you Janice🙏☀️🍀
What Stu said
@@Feribrat99 ditto :)
Between this channel and books, I’ve learned so much about these types of people, and have begun seeing ways of freeing myself. What a blessing.
Pathological. My ex suffered this abuse from her father and I dealt with it for 15 years. Now I am doing whatever I can to protect my kiddos from this abusive and vicious cycle. Not easy trying to heal and live quietly through an active smear campaign and keep my composure and motivation for them. But I am going to make it happen. And they will be free from this if I can help it.
I’ve been with my cluster b husband for 21 years, a dutiful co-dependent. I did what I could to protect my kids from his behavior. Now I think 3 of my sons are co dependent and are all choosing cluster b women.
@@valeriemaltais1782 Oh, I am so sorry. We often think we are doing the right thing by sacrificing our own happiness, unaware of the lessons we are modelling. Sigh. No judgment. These are impossible situations.
@@valeriemaltais1782 So frustrating when you are able to finally recognize the issues and the abuse that has been endured for so long and you are attempting to heal and then you watch the aftermath all play out with your children as they grow up enduring this now compounded situation. @Toam is correct. The situation really is impossible in so many different ways. Only silver lining (for me) is that I really hope I will be "bullet proof" (emotionally) for the 2nd half of my life. My true love is out there just hope fate leads me to her sooner than later.
Thanks to all of you on here as well. Writing this and having fellow souls that understand read and respond is therapeutic gold to me right now. Grateful for you. TF
Strong 🎉❤
Dear Lord, Yes! My ex-wife was a grand-master of both stonewalling (emotional secrets) and being secretive (factual secrets). Secret email accounts, a second phone line, a separate Amazon account. But all of that was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the techniques she employed to exercise psychological dominion. I finally said "forget it, I'm just doing me." At the end of our marriage she erupted "You've become like an unbridled horse." That was the most open and honest thing she ever said to me. It was all about control.
They are massive hypocrites. My covert GM would preach early & often in lecture tone the importance of being transparent. & to be an open book. Unfortunately, you can't get beyond the table of contents in his book. It's a New York Times best "No-Teller." Ironically, he hoards critical information as a badge of honor. Also, he, being married w/ kids, never once mentioned, spoke of or presented any photos of his wife & kids, no photos in his office, just a desk, computer, & blank walls. In the 8 years I've worked under him, nobody in the office knows her name or his kids names. He makes it clear that if you're beneath him in title, that info. as well as most other info. is off limits,
This is the Machiavellian side to them as well - power plays - often to keep certain people away from each other, so that they can't share intel ... the means justifying the ends ...
My ex stepfather kept my stepsister and I apart. We new about each other for about 40 years! He would only tell me she'd visited after she'd been and visa versa. Needless to say we eventually met and kept in touch, a bit, and neither of us see him anymore. Both went no contact for our own reasons 🙃 🙂
They are also the nosiest people on the planet.
I’m realizing every narcissist I have been around since my DAD- my birth, have been covert narcissist. These are the ones that seem so darn sincere…. You’ll go to bay for them even against what you know is true!!! You’ll empty your head of brains for them while they smile & watch!!!! Ugh!!! So needy!!! They’ll control you n let it look like your controlling them!!! When you get this- your eyes are open OMG! You’re gonna feel dumb!!! These people present as the most charming sweetest people you’ll ever meet!!! 🤮. Far from the truth!!! You’ll become their puppet fast!!!
Happy New Year Gus 😊I see you’re sticking to your resolution of being calm, undisturbed and at rest ❤🥰. That’s my resolution as well as I embrace a New and Fresh Start!
That's a great resolution! I like it!
I second that!! That's a forever resolution. Well said Marie🙏☀️
Amen
Gus embodies dignity, respect, civility.
@@ejnix7874 So True 🥰🥰
Once I realized I was just a page in the Narcissist‘s Supply Rolodex, it completely altered my understanding of reality.
...a person... of Peace! Thanks, Dr. C. That always makes my day.
Maggie M -Thank you for your lovely comment. And Thank you, Dr C for helping us be people of peace. Last but not least, and thank you Gus, for clearly being a dog of peace.
They are secretive about the things they don't want others to use or EXPLOIT against them! That's only their TOOL or power play to control. 😔
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And yet they can tell you they're going for openness and transparency. Words and actions are not the same. It doesn't add up. Their behaviour does not add up and will not make sence.
Preach, sistah! The contradictory word and actions is the bottom line giveaway for me.
How are you btw, Siri?! I’m guessing that card never made it since i hadn’t heard from you?
They often say words that they think you would like to hear!
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Yup.
I'm fine thank you.Thank you for asking. I'm taking care of myself. Staying clear in my self🌟 How are you, Kelly Jean? How was your Christmas? And how is your business going? You're right about the card. It hasn't showed up....I don't know what has happened, I just know it's not here. ❄️🌟S
@@siriastridkristensen4272 that really bums me about the card! I will try and send you another soon. I will let you know when it’s on its way. I’ll also ask at the post if they might have an idea what happened to it.
I’m glad to hear you’re well and clear 💜! Our holidays were wonderful!!! My daughter worked on the movie, Avatar so it was fun celebrating her and her accomplishments. The business is on its way to getting closer and closer and i am an excited nervous wreck haha! Thx a million for asking, Siri!
@@AlwaysStampinVideos 🩶
That’s the difference, Boundaries vs. Control. And that’s why, given their lack of understanding or even acknowledging their thirst for control, minimum or no contact is the only way to protect oneself. It’s just so sad…
The Ex kept me dysregulated and it showed in 'marriage counseling'. I'm sure the counselor thought I was the problem. It is impossible with a narcissist.
I was very lucky - at least with a couple of counselors I encountered -
Step daughter, as she was trying to eliminate me by any means necessary from the family, so she could grab all of her father's Estate without having to divide it between us (I Was the very stupid second wife [now divorced]) deployed, among many things, a smear campaign against me - to ANYONE she thought of - to any and all.
So, she went to councelors with her father. Fortunately, after she and her father, having a few "therapy" sessions with the first councelor, telling the councilor that I was evil, etc. - decided to hear my side of what was going on, and invited me to go to counseling with her father/ my husband at that time without including the step daughter in the counseling.
It took the counselor 3 sessions with her father and I, without the step daughter present, to figure out what was going on. The councelor asked her father/my husband, at the time, "So, how is it, "M", that your daughter has so much power over you?" And as she asked him/father of step daughter/ my husband at that time that question, her eyes got dark, as if to say - "I don't want to go there, and know the answer to that question that I just asked." (That is, "How is it, that your daughter has so much power over you?") His reaction to the counselor's question was priceless! And - the counselor decided right there, to say, "I don't need to see you anymore "M" for tberapy; I'm continuing with Ruth's therapy, though."
So, since that didn't work with the first therapist, step daughter tried to go to another, second therapist to spread her smear campaign, etc. She and her father went to this second therapist and, perhaps because the second therapist was older, and more experienced, the therapist caught on at the very first session where I and step daughter's father/my husband, at that time, had a therapy session, without the step daughter present - and the therapist realized what was going on, right away. That councelor yelled at father/my husband at that time, and said, "I see you're trying to have things both ways - saying one thing, while doing another!!!" (Daughter grabbed power of attorney and was manipulating our/ husband and wife bank accounts, among other things, etc.) And, the councelor, who saw the manipulation of step daughter right away, also said, " You two don't need therapists, you need attorneys, and you, R/ me, should get your own attorney!!! That councelor was quite angry at the apparent manipulations of "M" and, esp. the step daughter, and cut "M" off entirely, from any further therapy sessions, just as the first councelor did.
So, Dr.Carter, and Dr. Ramani are the very wonderful examples of what to look for in a councelor or social worker - these two are the Gold Standard of councelors!.
I hope this gets "registered" in the "Replies" section.
yeah. I went to counseling with my first wife and after working all day in an exhausting job id come home and help out in the home, wash dishes, change diapers, bedtime story... She did not work outside the home. The counselor said I needed to help out around the house more. So then I sent her off on a week long fishing vacation "to get away from her hectic life with the kids" while I stayed home with the babies. The house was never so clean and orderly and it only took me 4 hours per day. The rest was playtime alone with the kids. It was a blast.
So the counselor implied that I was the problem and I proved to myself that he became her flying monkey.
@@wisconsinfarmer4742 How did we come so far into a time where marriage counselors became so clever. There's professionalism then there's what has occurred today...'un-professionalism'.
Thanks for your story!
@@healthyquadrant6587 That was 40 years ago. I got sole custody a year later by not getting in the way of her party life. Once she got addicted to no responsibility she let me have the kids. And my ulcer went away.
Suck the life out of you is right , I think he gets happiness trying to destroy me. I have been married to one for 30 years. Things are coming to a head. 66 and having to start over, having to go back to work at retirement age. Don't know where I can go or how I can do this. I have been pulled down so far, I have no self-esteem, scared. The only comfort I get is listening to DR. C, I find his voice comforting.
That's where gas lighting comes in my life with my husband narc.he plays a lot of mind games!
They love mind games. I told mine years ago that if he wants to play mind games then he has to play by himself because I never learned how to play. Of course he found other ways to be manipulative and controlling. I just kept maliabl and fluid to adjust to the changing tactics. He takes away the remote, I watch youtube, he takes away the money, I fix all vegetables. It kills him.
Wow, this describes the ex Narcissist in my life perfectly. Thanks for another spot on video Dr Carter.
Being in control of yourself is very tough to do being pressured by them.
You have to be in tight control of yourself, have boundaries established
long before they show up in the horizon. That is what will save you from
all their manipulative tactics. It makes it easier to see what's going on.
They can pressure you to no end. Give them their way or else. I remind myself what toxic children they act like.
And being in tight control all of the time is exhausting so I gave up.
@@Elizabeth-yg2mg I've learned that you have to live your best life, and let them do WHATEVER ridiculous controlling they do.
Keepers of secrets are uber-controlling people and they are very often covert or vulnerable narcisists. They get their ego boost and sense of dominance and control over their victims because they always have plenty of things they know while their victims don’t and they thrive on the sense of tension which such circumstances perpetuate. Thank you for your incredible help and support dr Carter. ❤ God bless you❤
Look at Gus on that pillow❤. Coverts are the absolute worst! By the time you figure it out, you’re enmeshed. The worst!
Sneaky. Lying and hiding. My ex hid money and a double life. I'm still shocked. Even as he dies few know him as I do now and I'm sure it's miniscule. He was very quiet and passive aggressive. The Prince. I feel I know the basis of his shame. I have him ways to heal. Now I let go. Yes we are always revealing. Yes I finally let go. I let him have his lies.
I think healthy people don't keep or use secrets in calculated ways against anyone. Being cautious about your vulnerabilities, especially early in a relationship, isn't being secretive, it's just being careful. A narcasistic partner won't see it this way, you have to report back where you are and who you're with 24/7, but they can keep secrets as to where THEY are. Red flag🚩🚩
I am reminded of the movie “Invention to Lie.” Have you seen it? It’s interesting and thought provoking. Anywho, my personal take about secrets is the INTENT to “hide.” Is the intent to harm or help? The thing being hidden- is it mine to hide, or should i share? My take on the matter of secrets certainly isn’t the only take that matters but it’s what i have to go on for the time being.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos nicely said Stampin, that unpacks a tricky topic a little more. I know about the Ricky Gervais film "The invention of lieing" it's supposed to be a comedy tho I thought it a bit weird.
To respond to your point, there's also the way of "deceit", which is done with mal intent.
Also "twisting the story".. So you (or someone else) get told a version of something which ain't necessarily so.
Quite uncomfortable to write about, actually... I grew up believing everyone to be honest and decent. My epic bad on that one. Take care Stampin 🙏☀️
@@sturobertson6791 exactly… like i said… to help, or harm. That deceit you speak of certainly falls on the harm side of intent.
I agree about the movie. I was ready to laugh but ended up pondering way more than i cared to after watching. I think i may have been reminded of this particular movie because i can’t help but wonder- can you imagine if a narcissist spoke truth ALL the time and not just when they were ticked off at us like when your nex decided she was the authority over how you changed the gas bottle. (I am replying to that comment after replying to this one btw.) I i imagine them saying things like… “I’m upset and it’s all your fault.” I mean they already basically say those things… we just have to read between the lines. Anywho… you take care too, Stu!
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Hi Stampin. Yes! More nails you hit there... Help or harm... That describes the difference between our reality and their "reality" a healthy person's default state of intent is to help... We feel vvv uncomfortable when we know we've made an error and caused harm... To actually INTEND harm would put us in their world.
In the first year or so of my relationship with my nex (I'm beginning to not like that word)... I was puzzled as to why she said VERY frequently "I don't tell lies".
Also, her parents and brothers, unprompted, would say "Our daughter never lies / My sister doesn't lie... I remain puzzled to this day.... It's something I don't understand, maybe about " conditioning" between the Narc and their family
You said..".. Imagine if they told the truth all the time... That's some thought!.. They'd have to be truthful to THEMSELVES first.
And ten million out of ten for you to be able to answer 2 comments at once! 👏😊 Cheers Stampin. Happy thoughts to you💭👍🙏☀️
@@AlwaysStampinVideos I also meant to include your point when you said... "I'm upset and it's all your fault.."
Totally agree... What I got a lot was "I'm angry because of you.."
That then grew into... "My life is f***ed up because of you"
I've digressed from" secrets" to "lies they tell themselves"..
Much to ponder!! Take care Stampin, hope your day is a good one👍🙏☀️
My sister too! What a heart break learning this about her was!!! Once I learned about the covert- I started to be able to connect the dots!!! 😮
Your posts are always very timely, especially after, and before the fall out of a narcissistic relationship. So many nuggets about control, Dr. C. Appreciate your weekly posts.
what about x husband when we were dating .. who he expressed about how a hard life was for him and it all the fault his parents and siblings and their x wife .. ect ect he was innocent and poor him. feel sorry for him .. blah blah blah .. what i did not know then ,.. what i know now ... he is a covert narcissistic .. and that covert narcissist act like he is the victims all the his SOB stories and However when you asked them questions about their past,.. what his parents so abusive to you and when he told me .he threw teh chair across the living room floor when they argued .. and asked him why he did that and my EX-HUSBAND SAY HE DOESN'T REMEMBERED . THAT'S TELLING THE HALF TRUTH .. JUST LIKE WHEN I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS EX-WIFE HE COMPLAINS ABOUT HER SO MUCH ( she moved on with another man married ) and yet .. .. HOW SHE WAS SO MEAN TO HIM AND HE SAID I DON'T REMEMBERED,. its selective Amnesia in the past,.. yeah right .. my EX IS CERTAIN A SECRET NARCISSISTIC COVERT CONTROL... if i only knew then .. sigh ..
Let them keep their secrets by themselves. I don't want to know anymore.
Thank you Dr. Carter. Your videos give me so much insight and validation. I really appreciate them.
Some secrets will keep you safe and others will keep you sick.
Thank you Dr C. This is a Grand Slam video. I want to be a person of peace too. I am truly beginning to understand my ex-wifes mentality.
We go into these relationships with compassion and nurturing because women have gotten a raw deal in the past, but we keep getting punished for being close to them.Nothing is good enough It is not so personal as it is proximal.
Good, decent people respect the vulnerability in every individual as good and normal not a weakness.
Every kind of person suffering from narcissism spits on that idea and attacks it in good people.
exactly
Michael N - Thank you so much for your beautiful comment!
@@lovesings2us I second that! 🙏☀️
The secret keepers- the private people!!! “We’ll I’m just a private person“ even in a close relationship- nope, you’re just a covert narcissist playing your game”!!!
Yes my narcissistic husband did the taxes late didn’t tell me how much the return was than blame me for using it to fix my dryer it was only for 480.00 he always accuses me of stealing his money I don’t steal his money. It’s right there on the damn checkbook are used to pay the bills. I can’t wait to get away from him. He blamed me for not telling him but every time I do tell him anything he screams at me and blames me for a bunch of lies. Basically that never happened. How do you supposed to talk to somebody like that? Why would I tell you something when when I do tell you things you scream at me why would I bother to talk to you at all lies to me constantly tells me half truths. I never know what’s going on and I’m the liar!! I got screamed that I was a liar for an hour and a half.
That sounds like a pattern of behaviour. Definitely feel for you,
I think many people here would say it could be time to evaluate your options. Good luck I hope things get better for you🙏☀️
Their favorite thing to do is project their faults and behaviors onto you. I guess it's their way to deal with their guilt and shame. Dump it on someone else to get a relief.
Wow Dr. Les, you really said it here. Just when I think I've got the key video on the topic, you come out with yet another one with even more insights! Thank you for everything you've said here. Very helpful. Best New Year's wishes to you!
Thank you...Thank you....Thank you Dr. C....😉😄
Boy....narcs DONT LIKE IT WHEN ONE SETS BOUNDARIES with them....BUT....its perfectly ok if they run all over you !!!
I set boundaries with my narc sis and bro... their hoppin' mad and totally dissowned me...
Im better off...no more craziness...
💖💖💖🤗😉😊
It makes me sadder when siblings fall out than when I read about broken marriages, for some reason. Sad for the kids, though.
Hopefully, you’ve done the healthier thing for yourself. Hopefully, the siblings’ values improve someday. Stay well (& sane)!
@@ahnraemenkhera7451 Thank you...
My children have told me for years my sis and bro are insane...control freaks...guess i finally listened. ....🤷🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
No sibling relationship is better than a narc one...
Thanks for the encouragement !💖
@@dewuknowHIM You betcha! BE encouraged.
No siblings on my part, but I’ve worked UNDER & (mistakenly?) befriended many Narcs. We, underlings used to call them “crazy-makers.” They cause lasting damage & they never self-correct. Even when conditions change, they cannot, without help, because their brains are abnormal at generating empathy, guilt, etc. It’s a form of autism, really, in that “it’s their own world,” & their “ego” equals all emotional reference-to themselves.
But be safe. Avoid the “flying monkey armies.” Choose health (& distance) for yourself & be a hardliner for your boundaries.
I, too, had to learn tools to say: “Let me call you back,” & “I have to interrupt, because…” or “I’ll have to get back to you another time, Wednesday at 7?” (Narcs HATE it when you “schedule them!”) But if they don’t keep the appointment, it’s usually so they can impress you with some Very Impressive Nonsense you won’t have anything to do with. They ALL lead SUCH Big Lives, it’s best to stay well OUT.
If you do call on time, keep it brief. If you keep them on schedule, they’ll fizzle eventually. They need dramatic effects, not routine. Routine exhausts them.
At first, I felt like Johnny Carson. “We’ve got to take a break here,…” But now, I spot those tendencies & traits & ZAPP! I’m outta that WEB!
Happy NEW Health, & Best Wishes, HattulKavel-NarcFree in ‘23!
☺️😊🤫😂 🥂🪷🐰
I saw the narcissist's secret-keeping as deliberately denying me the information that I needed to decide to leave. I never put the label "control" on it, but I see that. The secret-keeping narcissist hid his addiction until he began to unravel.
Nicely said. Same for me. And when I found out about the addictions (alcohol , pot and coke).. the severity of them was still hidden.
When I tried to "help".. It made not a jot of difference
@@sturobertson6791 Same for me. I was desperate to help him, but he denied that he had a problem. He even fooled professionals. As I have learned about the dynamics of narcissism I do see a lack of information on the direct connection of narcissism and addiction. Best to you, Stu.
Yes, the narc I spent 8.5 years with Deliberately kept information from me, and would say to Me " You don't need to know," or " It's my business quit being so nosy," when I just asked him what he was doing for the evening or had done the prior weekend ...
And often he WOULD tell me at some point later ( and it was always something dumb or ordinary ) but he LOVED to keep me on edge, wondering and dysregulated. He KNEW it triggered me so did it Deliberately. When I completely ended things on 11-30- 2022, I said to him, " Now you don't have to hide or deny me knowing you more deeply, I won't be
" bothering you" with my queries, because NOW Toad ( todd) I no longer give a f***. Bye. Be happy with no one having any interest in whether you live or die."
And I blocked him. And Mr. " I don't need you, you're lucky I'm in your life" has gotten 3 new phone #'s and repeatedly attempted contact, baiting, future faking .. But, no. There's not even a trauma bond remaining.
Once I'm done, I'm done. 👋👋🙌🤡
@@malibu90265 Hi J W. I think you've raised an interesting point about the link between N and addiction.
I sometimes listen to Lisa A Romano on another YT channel, and she often talks about N's and addictions.
All the best to you too J W... I'm surviving and thriving with you! 😢☀️
@@suzanne4396 you're a lesson for us all Suzanne. I'm done now too, it just took me a while.
All the best 🙏☀️
Great video Dr. C. Yes, and when you uncover a secret, they act like we should’ve known, or if bad enough, then they stonewall and act hurt. Impossible to have a true relationship with them.
And in a nutshell you're describing my entire family. It does make me sad you know? I'll probably spend the rest of my life trying to get rid of their narcissistic ghosts. But I'm okay with that it's all I have.
@@chipchippie Chip, I'm hearing you.. But the rest of your life is for you to be free, fulfilled, joyous, peaceful, content, growing, moving forward, creating lovely healthy relationships, looking forward, enjoyment, living a life of DRC...
Put them ghosts in a compartment in your mind and only get those memories out when it's good and convenient for you..
Good luck Chip. TH got your back!!
👍🙏☀️🍀
This is something that only becomes really clear in retrospect. My sister had an outwardly gregarious, funny, outgoing persona. We live at opposite ends of the country, so I didn't see her, but we talked on the phone every other week (I was almost always the one who called her). After our break, when I began to realize she was a narcissist, odd things about her came back to bother me. One was that I knew almost nothing about her personal, romantic life. I don't mean details about sex; I mean that I still don't know to this day if she ever had a marriage proposal (she's 59 and I'm 63). Is it wrong to think that a sibling would tell a thing like that? Maybe there never was one, but that in itself is odd, because she's always been attractive, and I would have thought she was quite a catch when she was young. Meanwhile, my life (married with 3 special needs children) was pretty much an open book. I was always talking about things my kids and family did, and she tended to ask questions that I now realize were a bit too personal - infringing boundaries. I felt uncomfortable, but stupidly would still answer, but what I didn't realize until later was that there was a huge imbalance in openness, and that's probably the biggest warning flag.
I definitely agree on the imbalance of openness/sharing. Since i don’t have other details about your relationship with your sis, i can’t really answer your question about whether or not intimacy issues are something all sisters share. I certainly never felt comfortable sharing those kinds of things with my sister. We weren’t in contact with one another the way you and your sis were though. For me personally, sharing the intimate issues is something i personally wouldn’t do regardless. Coverts usually glean information about you so that they can either use it against you or use it to somehow manipulate you and/or any given situation. That’s definitely been the case for me personally. Lesson learned, never tell all. Maybe your sis has been burned herself by some narcissist and it’s caused her to not feel comfortable sharing details about her own life. Like i said, i don’t know because i don’t know other details to your situation. I do know what it feels like to be on a one sided effort relationship. It’s exhausting to be the one to always call and always share and then hope against hope they will some day do the same. Sending you a cyber hug and freedom vibes! Once i finally stopped wishful thinking what i gave would eventually come back to me, freedom and peace is what i received.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos Thanks! I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but one problem of living in an abnormal situation is not realizing that it IS abnormal. I literally don't know what a normal sibling relationship is like, so I'm left guessing. Do other people talk to their siblings about such-and-such? Is this over the line, or does everyone do it? Maybe that's why going no contact was such a relief; I no longer have to tap dance in the dark anymore!
Tap dance in the dark... That's a great phrase that tells your story.
Wanda and Stampin, I think your comments here are super helpful... There's something special happens in the learning part of my brain when I read words that are so honest and touch on your vulnerabilities... It's a privilege, and I think that triggers learning for me.
Bless you both... Kind thoughts for both of you🙏☀️☀️🙏
Same here.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos well said.
Funny how my Malignant sister Never told me a thing about herself. I was not one to share anything but superficial stuff after someone did a zinger on me once, they had short leashes after that.
She was always bitching about people being obsessive but I soon realized it was her that WAS OBSESSIVE. Pot calling the kettle black, LOL.
I have, now that mom died, shut my brother and sister totally out of my life, all but the few thoughts of if only they were different that I would have a better situation concerning being around them, but nope. malignant is malignant. never changes. That leopard will be a unicorn before she changes. She is 9years older than me and never liked me thanks to mom's crap fest with all of us at one time or another. My brother is her flying Monkey and his wife is along for the ride. Nope never again will we probably cross paths. Definitely NOT in their soul group if we ever reincarnate again. I would rather take my chances as a frog instead of a toady to any of the three.
Really sad part of that is they taught their kids to carry on, and carry off anything that is not nailed down. When Mom died, well, you get the picture and it was not a Norman Rockwell Painting for sure, LOL.
and me as the
Ohhhhh my Goodness!!! TOTALLY what my husband does❤ I'm heading out the door
My caste community, relatives, in-laws, husband and neighbors.. Like malti goswami... It should happen to them..
I’m leaving my husband. I just picked up my apartment keys. And he’ll have no idea until he comes home one day soon and the house will be empty. He had taxes on his income to pay, and he had it sent to collections instead-and that means my name as well, cause it was a given I had to sign the tax papers filing jointly. I’ve got to go mop now because for 21 years he has never lifted a finger to do chores.
Freedom!!
My narc hadn't filed income tax in ten years when I met him. I helped get it straightened out, but we separated for four years (long story as to why I'm back) and once again he stopped filing. The correspondence from the IRS is not friendly, and I think he's in deep do-do, but there's nothing I can do this time. Luckily we lived together and didn't marry or I'd be stuck with his problem too.
Hi Dr. C.....could you go into the brain damage caused by long term narcissistic abuse and what can be done to overcome it. I didn't even realize that this was a thing and all of the symptoms fit me to a tee. I really need help and I need to know more than anything that there is hope for people like me.
Hi Amber I just read your comment and I am really hearing and feeling your anguish.
You've asked a very specific question, and I hope you get an answer from an appropriate professional.
May I offer my take on it?... Narsasistic abuse affects people in many different ways. Among these is utter confusion, a lack of trust in yourself and your thinking, and an overwhelming feeling that there is something WRONG with you..
Narsasists get satisfaction from making you feel this way.
Unless and until we heal sufficiently, it may well be that we BELIEVE we have suffered brain damage
Lisa A Romano, on another YT channel, uses the phrase "mashed potato" to describe how Narsasists make our brains feel.
Keep watching, listening, reading and learning here... I hope (like I have) you will become UN CONFUSED... for me, I began to think more clearly, be ame more confident in various ways, including trusting my thinking and my decisions.
I have no clue if this will help you.. If you need medical or therapeutic help you should do that...
But I DO know that there are people here who have been desperately damaged, and are now healing, surviving and thriving..
Best of luck Amber, kind thoughts for you🙏☀️🙏
@Stu Robertson thank you for the hope you have given me. I'm taking small steps towards overcoming the effects the abuse my narcissistic brother and others have inflicted on me. It's a process, and it helps to know I am not alone. Thank you 😊
@@amber-turner Amber you are very much not alone. People here on TH are real, and really supportive, and really knowledgeable. Reach out when you need to.
And trust yourself, you are precious and amazing and you're the only one of you in the world. You are WORTH making the effort for...
You are NOT alone, no way.
Wishing you tons of good stuff! 🙏☀️👍🙏
No contact with toxic people is the answer your looking for. That's the only route to take.
@Cynthia Fortier that is easier said than done. I am the executor of my parent's estate. Like it or not, I have to deal with my brother when they pass
I am so thankful for your videos. I continue to learn how I've been decieved & manipulated by so many narcissists. At 60 yrs old, I'm tired of being treated with disrespect and manipulated. Narcissists are very good at lying, manipulating, cheating & just plain evil. Thanks again, Dr. C. (Love seeing Gus in each discussion). 😊 🐾
You begin to realize that you collect narcissists all around you. I really saw the malignant narcissists but was confused by the covert types. It wasn't until I was working with a covert narcissist that I started watching Dr. C and Dr. Ramani that I began to realize what was going on in other areas of my life. I am now on the road to recovery!! I too have decided that I am not going to take it anymore!! Stay strong Cindy!!
I know just how you feel, the more you learn you you realise just how many people in your past were toxic and we gave them the best of us
I’ve wondered why my ex wouldn’t tell me anything although he claimed he told me everything. Control!!
It’s horrible when you spend time getting to know a potential mate only to find out that they’re covert about who they truly are in private, especially when they know you know.
It’s actual abuse or quickly becomes abusive due to their panic that others might find out.
I always thought something was off, then second guessed my thoughts, I always felt there was something secret, money, drugs or phone......I suppose I'll never know...all I know was my gut wasnt right, I thought it was me due to my past bad experiences,,,I tried to be everything he wanted especially in bed, even when I hated it......but that was my fault, I shouldve been stronger to say no.........
Gus, looks soooo incredibly cuuute and snuggly 🥰 thank you both!!!
Their secret is that they love gardening but are unaware that some flowers fly and refuse to let their hearts rot in the rain.
Mr C - you remind me of a Captain with that stance in the thumb- nail
Saluting the narcissist - good- bye lol
Catch them in the act of setting you up, they will look you in the eye and lie
At first I thought the lies were only about "wrongdoings". Then I realised they also lie about normal stuff (that they didn't need to lie about)... But it took me forever to figure out they lie most about "who they are"
Yuuup! Well said, Stu. The secrets aren’t always about sexual encounters or money or “wrongdoings.” For some, just keeping the secret of their not wanting to dig deep inside themselves to discover past hurts as the reason why they inflict pain onto others is the greatest secret of all.
@@AlwaysStampinVideos When we were still together I discovered coke "hidden" in a drawer. I left it there and sat down with my partner and said something like "can we just sit here a while and have a really nice honest chat" , and I poured me heart out about a few things about MY flaws and vulnerable spots, and asked as reasonably as I could if she was still doing coke.
I haven't forgotten it....
She looked deep into both my eyes, paused, and said slowly, no I don't, I've deleted all those numbers, and if I did, I'd tell you....
I'm thinking now when she was looking into my eyes, what she was seeing was her own reflection....
It's not a nice feeling being lied to like that..... Cheers Stampin, peace and honesty! 🙏☀️
@@sturobertson6791 After my marriage broke up, I learned that a person who hates you can look at you with warmth in his eyes and act friendly, but it was just an act for the other person who was present. I had no idea that I had been married to such a good actor.
@@faithworks217 Hi Earlana. Unfortunately toxic or narcasistic or abusive people CAN be good actors. That's exactly how they get away with it for so long and we fall for it. So sorry you've experienced this too. I hope you are out of it, free recovering, and finding happier times🙏☀️
The enemy inverts everything.
There is no truth in them.
I will still watch Dr Carter, he's the best anyway, helped me immensely already!💕
Learning that keeping secrets and lying outwardly isn’t ‘a boundary’ and instead it’s a leverage of control is eye-opening and a relief….I always felt like they wouldn’t let me know them and we couldn’t bond. This explains it fully. Thank you so much for this video!!
This is SO helpful. Converts can be the most dangerous. However I think we all have some amount of this inside us. Sometimes it takes another narcissist to bring it out and make us see, and change our own ways :(
I don't know if you ever visit AL, but I swear I saw you or your look alike yesterday. Thank you for the education. It has helped me avoid a lot of narcissistic pitfalls lately.
The Keeper of the Secrets! That is what I accused my spouse of! It's less his own stuff and more stuff that pertains to the world around us, our kids, his family, stuff that happens in the community or his work (he's a cop). He'll make it known that he has information, and then I am supposed to ask 1,000 questions that meet his qualifications as he "leaks" out tiny pieces of the information at a time. Even then I will only get part of the information, and often times, if it has to do with our children or family or friends, it will be twisted in a way to make insecure about how those people feel about me. He also has total control of the money, tells me I'm making him go broke for 6 months straight, and then flip and say "yeah, since we've been separated I've got more money in the savings than I ever have, not to say something hurtful or anything" WTF?!? but I know what the deal is, so I don't let it bother me anymore unless my kids tell him things to tell me. I've had to tell them numerous times if there is something I need to know, they are not to filter it through the Keeper of the Secrets.
I had a co-worker that like to keep secrets and would feed me little bits of information. Years later, I caught him in a lie over a work assignment that I got screwed over on. I called him out on it and got our boss involved. His punishment for me.....The Silent Treatment. When I retired a short time later, he didnt have the decency to wish me good luck or anything. I caused a Narcissist Injury and looks like I got a lifetime punishment of the silent treatment. Good riddance.
Thanks for the laugh. It's not what it seems. No it's like it's exactly what it seems like.
OMG, this was really helpful, Dr. C.....This was really what I needed to hear this morning. Thank you
Wow!
I have Been told numerous times over 8 1/2 years that I only need to know what he tells me about his day to day… his life
Otherwise he keeps me isolated from his’ Life’ ,On social media etc
… has been 8 1/2 years in a relationship with only what he determines I need to know
Thank you Dr. C♥️🙏🔥Wish you and all here a beautiful day and weekend!!💪😉🎶🍷
Thank you Papu. You too! 👍🙏☀️
Dr. Ramani, and Dr. Carter seem to be the Gold Standard of counselors and social workers - dont settle for anything less!!!
Thank you.
Does their need for control live in the same place as their need for privacy? My husband has always been very private…doesn’t want to talk about it…feels that if he says what he really thinks it would hurt me…says he wants to protect me from that hurt…yet, by him never telling me anything real, he is hurting me. And now in our retirement, he is here underfoot, old and grumpy, won’t do anything with other guys unless it’s with our kids or grandkids--where he is THE MAN! The captain of the fishing boat…etc. He has no need or desire to do guy things..sports, etc..and he depends on me for companionship. I am done with that. But, can anyone explain what this isolating is about? Another attempt at control?
This was my covert narc ex's MO for sure. So many secrets. Would do everything in her power to avoid sharing what she is doing in her life and hide aspects of the people in her life (i.e. exes that are "friends" but she wouldn't mention they were exes).
I LOVEEEE THIS MR. CARTER😂🤣😅😆😁💕💞💞💓💗💗
8:25 We normal folks think the Narcs are needy, but to them we're the needy ones for asking them to have empathy and etc. \: |
"Just accommodate me; what's the big deal? Gee you're such a needy person (for wanting me to be empathic).
My husband & I have been together for 13yrs, we have a house, a kid, & he’s a very closed book.
I don’t know anything about his finances. A couple weeks ago we went to the store on a Friday, just for conversation purposes I asked him if he had gotten paid. Without answering yes or no, he began screaming at me “WHY? WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW THAT! WHY? HUH?”
I was so taken aback by his angry response. I gave up trying to have any sort of conversation with him for the rest of the night.
Sadly his angry outbursts are becoming more & more the norm.
I’m over this relationship. I want out.
Those are major red flags.
They gather information and whisper the tale differently to others. They make you the messenger to convey what they want, knowing it will create tension and arguments. Their hands are “clean”, so to speak.
Nicely said.. Their hands are clean as they've done nothing wrong (according to them)
They expect you to frantically run round and correct the Chinese whispers while they're playing the 'gotcha' game!
ONE strategy that works pretty well is to say ‘Let me interrupt a minute…’ when it becomes clear that they are bringing you gossip content.
Then, you can tell them WHY you’ve decided not to hear people’s confidentials, personals, family/office politics, etc.
At the least, they’ll have to come up with another “strategy,” usually, by asking you to “help” them with something/someone else. (Don’t fall for that one either, just “forget” to get back to them.)
At worst, they may drop you from their call list, which is a short-term “win,” but at least you get time to begin distancing. If you consistently disengage (as nicely as possible) they may just stop popping up altogether. TIME (between chats) is the key. Hope the tip helps. 🌱
@@ahnraemenkhera7451 it definitely does help. Very useful, thank you AhnRae🙏☀️
@@sturobertson6791 😊🌱☕️🪷 Glad to help the Narc-Free in ‘23 mission! 🌷
I love the information you share in all of your videos. Unfortunately it all sounds very familiar. I was wondering if you could do some videos that specifically talk about co-parenting with a narcissist.
Just look at all the phonies portraying themselves as successful on Instagram and TH-cam.
I have every right to be pessimistic about all relationships. I have been singled out repeatedly and treated dismissively by almost everyone I meet. I am not in control of their behaviour. They all behave as if they know me and there's a false story in their minds. I can never get it across that what they have in their heads is not me.
None of us is obliged to make them better persons, that's up to them. I'm sure they know the difference between good and bad and they choose consciously.
I wish you peace ♡
My narcissist suffers from my reactive abuse, and therefore accuses me of being a rotten person. For a long time I believed I was a hypocrite because of his evaluation. But I'm a substitute teacher, and so many kids hug me and tell me how much they love me, and I had a long talk with another teacher in Walmart the other day, and she actually said I am an angel among people because I was helping her with some trauma she was going through. But I still live with the narcissist (still 20 years married) and when I'm with him, I'm constantly judged. If I react to his ridiculous behavior, I'm justifying that I'm an unstable and mean person. But I'm not! I know I'm not!
I believe it's called baiting. They bait you with critical & abusive behaviors to get your reaction so they can play the victim when you attempt to defend yourself. When I started calling my narc out for this behavior it would send her into a rage while I learned to not react, just call it out as it was happening.
Yeah, when you react and they criticize you for it, they’re manipulating you so you’re disharmed. I could not stay… I’m sorry you have to deal with that!!! My sibling used to love to do that. I call it trigger baiting, first thing in the morning, he would say some unbelievably f ckd up thing to me: racist, sexist, you name it and when I react, I’d get in trouble as a child and when I was older, I tried not to react bc he was a sadistic lil devil and I caught his game. So what he did was found other methods, have other ppl who I don’t talk to attack me as a person.
@@samie7025 Sounds like my narc older brother, now 67, l have had enough, l can't believe l stuck it so long, giving him chances, well l am done now, after the latest baiting at Christmas, in my house!! Here is to all of us healing.
@@amandaroberts5111 🥂 Word! 🥲😭💔 It hurts to hear other ppl go through this, but glad when they get out of it. Narcissists so need to remain in therapy, change and do better too.
@@samie7025 , only if they choose therapy.
My narc husband of 35+ years says he doesn’t need therapy. The denial is strong.
I gray rock, laugh, and walk away when he starts the blame and shame game.
I’m slowly learning, through Dr. C and Team Healthy, who I am! My self-esteem is coming back, and hopefully, my health will too.
🙏🙏
Give everything time!
Covert is so hard to "get" and videos like this help so much! Thanks for the insight and guidance to understand this.
Glad it was helpful!
Not only the tax bill went to collections, I only know because I was in the basement and read his mail. He hasn’t told me he didn’t pay it and we’re both at collections.
I think I'm going to have to watch this one a few times. I've carried the "Why" question for YEARS because it all just makes no sense to me. But I'm not sure even with the understanding of it all that it will set right in my heart or my mind. The thing that I can't wrap my brain around is that they are self depriving themselves for a fake feeling. A victim of themselves!
I experienced this multiple times in my last 6 year LTR. I was recently just discarded (the final one). As I will never go back. In hindsight I was devalued and experienced reconciling so many times over the six years. I used to get lectured on how being open was a weak trait and strong men keep secrets for their partners. It was confusing and made me question myself. I never felt right about it.
This is so helpful! I chose to leave.
It IS that simple, once you know.....just leave..
So true . Shame driven. Addiction to
many things. I’m so aware of the so called recovery time. Has happened over & over. A commitment to secrets
This has helped so much in healing TY
Secrecy and/or conspiracy are clear signs of maliciousness and delinquency.
You're free ... so am I and I don't need your control or your permission
I had to tell that to my sister