Another reason to not harass the Klingons is because of the fact that they had so easily thrashed the Federation during Discovery season 1. Even if the Strange New Worlds episode is set some years in the future, the Klingon war would still be within living memory.
I think in balance of terror dialogue. The implied the empire has been expanding on the opposite end of the federation border, the commander said he had fought in a hundred campaigns. And after tomed . The empire was even larger. Perpetual war seems normal. ( the continuing committee of the Senate) with federation conquest being an ultimate goal of the empire
I think the motivations here also mirrored their motivations in The Next Generation. Both times they re-emerged as players in the Alpha Quadrant after long periods of quiet, presumably focusing on internal matters and campaigns on the other side of their empire. They possibly hoped the Klingons and Federation would limit each other's growth, but they look back at the Alpha Quadrant and see Federation is expanding unchecked. So maybe they wanted to see what state the Federation was really in after their recent conflict with the Klingons, and whether it would be viable to commit fully to cripple the Federation or if that does not work to, just remind them that the Romulans are there and a still threat. If the Federation has to divert attention to the border and internal security, maybe they are less likely to expand and stretch themselves thin?
My head canon is that the Romulans are what the Vulcan military and military intelligence became after the logic reforms took root in Vulcan society. And duty is what keeps their emotions from overwhelming them. We see that duty is a large part of a Romulans life. Sarek, um I mean the Romulan commander speaks of it in Balance of Terror more than once. So does the female Commander in the Enterprise Incident. Sarek, um the Romulan commander's last duty is to destroy his ship. The female commanders last order to Sub Commander Tal was to destroy the Enterprise even though she was aboard her.
Yes. As he's advised by Spock, and his own understanding if history - aggressive acts must be met with firm and unyielding resolve and response. Appeasement only emboldens the aggressor.
The Romulans have basically taken the legendary rage they inherited from their ancestors and honed it to a scalpel. It may seem cowardly to only attack the people you KNOW wants peace at all costs, but ultimately it's the correct choice. Logical, even. You focus on merely the internal political reasons, but war also improves technology faster than any other activity, and the Star Empire knows that even should they suffer setbacks, the Federation is way too bound by moral quandaries to nuke civilians indiscriminately, they are not going to lose territory and the Federation have already shown that they would be willing to give some up to secure peace. This is again why I find Sisko to be my favorite captain, yes he did need some pushing to do so and more than a little help, but ultimately he was the captain who played the Romulans at their own game and managed to not only win, but do so with distinction.
But at the cost of what his uniforms stands for. That's what I really love about the darker side of the federation (section 31, sisko etc...) they must become the anti-thesis of what they want to protect, federation. But again, yes, he can live with it :D
@@nekogami87 Lincoln was a leader, but it was Grant and Sherman who won the war. Sherman said it best, "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." Sisko became a Sherman.
Having an enemy like that is Perfect for that kind of people or government(Romulans). They can just keep pushing and pushing, getting as much in concessions, territory and tech as they can until they finally reach the Federation's limit and then back off from just there. They won in the long term and that fits Perfectly with the long living vulcan physiology that the Romulans' probably still have. Think of the Dominion's ideals of being able to wait for a hundreds of years before taking over a planet or government and their territory. It's like that with the Romulans but maybe a bit shorter. They only seem to not have this long viewed strategy and cohesiveness because their government probably goes through several coup's every hundred years or less.
Ok so clearly this episode is in a seprate timeline. but that is about right for the romulans, pick a fight you know you can win. although im not sure that they actually could win in a protracted war. Romulans don't fight for the sake of it but to achieve other ends. i can see them employing a series of shock campaigns to extract concessions and annex territory.
Oh dude, I could see that timeline and it isn't pretty. Future alt-Pike, I don't recall correctly but might have inferenced about more wars or conflicts than just with the Romulans'. This new Romulan war would open the Feddies to being a 'weak' target and then several more Alpha & Beta quad. powers will take advantage of that. And like you said. If the Romulan's pushed for short hard conflicts to extract more concessions from the Federation JUST so the Feddie's could have a moment to breath and rebuild and reload, this would happen a lot. The Federation territories being shrunk pretty vastly by the time Alt-Pike shows up to change the timeline. The Federation can take A Lot of credit for making newer, better weapons and tech when pushed rather hard but unless it's a real wonder weapon and new ship class that can actually act on it's project's titles capabilities then it just makes things easier, not "war winningly" easier.
as a once female chancellor of the Klingon empire once said "War is Obsolete".The Romulans there highly intellectual,advanced in technology and experimentation,and also cowards.They cant keep there government in line so for the sake of the "praetor"to stay in power it has to declare war on the next big thing?Its basically what the United States does making themselves out to be the target of a major or threatening power due too WMD Propaganda and through all matters of reason.........declare war ?how the hell does that make sense?The romulans and the federation are both at fault for the war the transpires after the the events of this episode.The romulans instigating the whole thing and the federation for playing into there hands.And lets all be honest with ourselves.....if the Praetor ...the ruler of the ROMULAN STAR EMPIRE can only keep there seat of power by feigning ignorance and mustering up its forces and proclaim war over a goddamn border incident ....then they have no reason of being in that seat of power.Let alone an Empire which is basically a big ole goth kid that likes to promote and demonstrate suffering on those just because they whooped your asses about a hundred years ago.The RSE needs to grow the fuck up man .and the rest of you who disagree with statement ...save your breath .The Romulans will always be the aggressors in no matter what situation.PERIOD.AND NO im not siding on the federation nor are they my favorite faction in the STU i believe that as picard said in the 1st season STpic that starfleet was no longer Starfleet .that quote holds true.they instigate skirmishes now too based on fear and past memories of war.in my mind the Federation is broken...in my mind the entirety of the known galactic community of Star trek is broken and in all honesty the one time i ever saw a true future Was when CAPTAIN JOHNATHAN ARCHER STOOD BEFORE THE COUNSEL OF ALL THE ALLIES OF UEA or (UNITED EARTH ALLIANCE) established they be partners of common cause .TO EXPLORE THOSE STRANGE NEW WORLDS AND SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS and TO GO BOLDLY WHERE NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE.
The Federation miss judge an alien culture? You don’t say? They assumed everyone wanted to be stuffed in a play dough mold and sing kumbiya? For the record I despise the facial hair Kurtzman insists on. When did he decide that was a thing? Its like a bearded elf, it just ain’t right.
You make valid points. But, I think the Romulans missed something very important: the rate of technological progress the Federation can make if it chooses to do so. Look at where humans were just 2-300 years prior. Some of that advancement can be attributed to alliances and the formation of the Federation, but not all. There's this little spark of ingenuity in humans of the Star Trek prime universe, that allows them to make major advancements really quick. Also think Wolf 359 vs Sector 001. From a fleet of 40 ships being barely a speed bump, to a fleet being able to harass, delay, and eventually destroy a cube. They were nowhere near a technological peer in either case, but they were far closer at sector 001. And it's not just technology. The tactics were immeasurably better at Sector 001. But, as you say, that's just my opinion. As always, great video! Keep up the great work!
You are correct about what humans are capable of, both with diplomacy and, when in a pinch, in many areas at once. Andorian Commander Shran said it best, as quoted by Vulcan Ambassador Soval, "Never push the pink skins onto the thin ice."
there is no justification for genocide, but entirely fair to argue their perspective on an ethnocentric jingoist declaration of war… I’d reason it’s no nitpicky between the 2
We don't even know if it is genocidal. We are told that over a period of, what, 15-20 years some millions of people die. Yes that seems like a big number to us today, and in light of what we know of a certain 20th century war... But consider the population of the whole of the Federation a couple of centuries from now, even if the Human population might not have fully recovered from WW3, it would still be a few billion, and just one species of many in the Federation. Similarly the Romulans would have their subject races, the Remans and whoever else adding several billion each to their side. We obviously don't have much information in this area, but the numbers have to be significant in order for the Romulans to be an interstellar power on the same level as the Federation and Klingons. The Cardassians in the 24th century lost some seven million people in just regular warfare against the Federation-Klingon Alliance, and this was considered an acceptable loss so long as it resulted in territorial gains. A proper genocidal war would see two million dead in Lakarian City alone, and another 800,000,000 dead with more casualty reports coming in. All on just one planet.
@@MahsaKaerra do Romulans demonstrate a history of ethnocentrism and the default doctrine of Romulan superiority? Oh hell yes Is the genocide the goal of this invasion and war? nothing on screen supports that… it would mean the Romulan [military and state] intend on scrubbing Vulcans, Humans, Tellarites, Andorians, and whatever else member species include themselves with the Federation Neither are commendable motives, but ethnocentric jingoism ≠ genocide, because words matter
Kirk chasing down the Bird Of Prey and destroying it also showed the flaws of the plasma weapon combined with the cloaking device, thus prompting the Romulans to back off and acquire/capture and copy Klingon D7s (I'm not willing to say 'ally' with the Klingons like Beta-Canon often says. Also to me it doesn't seem very 'Klingon' to ally with an inferior) Pike on the other hand showed the Romulans that the Federation is ripe for conquest. As I said before, Pike is still a part of Georgiou's generation of making peace offerings first. Kirk is more Burnham's generation.
@@joeswanson733 By generation, I mean when they became Captain. (Or would have become Captain in Burnham's case) Not necessarily by age. Both Burnham and Kirk would have seen Captaincies after the Klingon war, while Georgiou and Pike assumed command before.
In my head-canon, the Romulans were the LESS emotional and violent branch of the family. The violent emotional Vulcans nearly killed themselves before deciding that their uncontrolled emotions would be their doom, and deliberately chose a life of peace. The Romulans on the other hand never had to reform their society, and so still harbor the cruel conniving aggression that they all once had. That's how it goes in my head, at any rate.
Is this a continuation of your "Radical Peace" narrative from a previous video? This idea that diplomacy is not a generally a better alternative than war is unbelievably hawkish. You are promoting the type of philosophy one would expect to see from the Klingons not the Federation.
Having found that Paramount+ came with my Sky Cinema I was able to binge watch STW, but just found it visually expansive but so confusing. I assume now that this is yet ANOTHER Star Trek Universe spin off, as in the Enterprise/Archer universe the Romulans had been trying to infiltrate Vulcan (which in another universe was destroyed), and there was that war with the Romulans which is the original was fought with more primitive weapons, neither side seeing each other. Maybe they should stop trying to squeeze more from the same cracked pitcher and concentrate on something new - like for example the Dept of Temporal Investigations, or the Typhon pact. Otherwise its like trying to read several different novels or assembling a jigsaw with the pieces from 4 or 5 boxes.
Ok so you are taking the approach the Romulan leader ship could only keep its people in line by showing they were strong. Ok I can follow that, so the Praetor is weak but needs an easy victory so we have the Klingons who they feel would kick their asses so turn to the Federation who are to foolish to not call the Romulans on their crap. The problem is the Romulan leader ship is weak and fears a rebellion but knows a show of strength is the best measure to avoid this. But Lore you make an interesting point the Romulans saw or remembered the teachings of Vulcan and what that lead to, but you for got one key peace of info. Vulcan after the war of emotion was over was a peaceful place they were strong but if you could take the heat Vulcan was a nice place. You saw the Vulcans sued for a peace at all costs I saw the Vulcans held a measure of restraint because until the 24th century the Vulcans were among the strongest powers in the Alpha Quadrant. Vulcan tech was just as good if not better than any power in the 22nd century and was still on par with many, many races. So is it weakness if you have a surplus of atomic bombs and could wipe out your enemies in a second but decide to try and talk it out first to avoid a long costly war. I'll let you decide.
The fact the Romulans were on the viewscreen is the final nail in the coffin for me to create a head canon that fits together all of trek, including legacy and Nutrek. I like the story sure, and as a standalone story without any universe behind it I'd still very much enjoy it, but I still think keeping to the canon is sacred. Therefore, final nail in the coffin.
That's a dice-y calculation......who's to say there won't be a 3rd side to jump in and make an attempt on Romulus. Didn't some Klingons help Earth for the earlier pre-Fed war?
Yeah, I suspect both sides would be using political influence to try to get the Klingons to join their side against the other if Pike started a war here. its hard to say since the Federation was recently at war with the Klingons, but the Klingons are unpredictable enough who knows. They might find more honor in siding with the humans that were able to stand up to them, instead of the Romulans. Or likely some Klingon houses might join both sides and start another Klingon Civil War.
@@TheCsel you kidding ? ( romulus and remus ) ( romeusand remus ) consil pr cpnsonl , preator . Senate. , legions. All Roman empire titles. ( except the have the preator in the wrong position)
@@LoreReloaded Didn't Sulu in this episode said something along the lines of that when Romulan ships were last seen, viewscreens were not really a thing quite yet, and ships communicated through radio, so all the descriptions they have got left from that time was that romulan ships looked like "war birds"? I may be obviously remembering episode and this particular line wrongly, but if that was what he has said then whole war happening during pike's Era would be continuity issue.
I saw some clips from this show, and I do consider SNWs to be the best of a bad lot. Not a high bar to clear but what the heck. But the Romulans were acting more like Klingons then Romulans. and that CGI of the "FLEET" OMG it was just horrible.
The Romulans in TOS were like Klingons, the writers swapped the intended roles. And while it could have been better, the fleet was equal or better than most other series shots of fleets. Star Trek tends to just copy paste the same model and cram them as close as possible and call it a fleet battle.
If the Romulan Empire was up against Picard's federation perhaps picking a fight would be wise. This is Pike's federation, not even Kirk's at this point in time, one or two steps from Captain Archer himself. I don't think the Romulans would be ready for a federation willing so quickly to fight and keep fighting. Much more double fist punching back then.
I agree, it really hasn't been that long since the Earth Romulan war, and there are probably some Vulcans and Romulans still alive that remember it. I think the Romulans could have observed the Federation dealings with other species like the Klingons though. The Federation has a lot more member worlds now, worlds to protect and worlds that get a voice in decision making. So they seem to be a little more ready to appease an aggressive neighbor, maybe relocate colonies on a few border worlds. But at the end of the day, the Federation still remembers the Romulans and can only be pushed so far. I think in Kirk's day once they start fighting the Romulans, they will keep going until they know they hurt them enough they will think twice about doing it again.
pikes federation got so decimated by the klingon wars from DISC they're scrambling. it wouldn't be until kirks time in TOS that they finally rebuilt the fleet from ground up.
The biggest problem with pike I think is that even if technical is an "atheist secular humanism" In the ather hand you can say is religious in a way For some reason believe that ethics is universal at some degree and have no reason why to believe difference the first episode prove exactly this. And maybe you can do an argument for some universality in ethics for humans this idea is definitely not correct for aliens... And this flow is what leads federation in disasters at the future like you point in the previous video. You can not do freedom with people that are at the core different than you and they wond your destruction. Some times peace is more violence than attack (I call it attack and I don't call it violence because for me this is anti-violence and be definition is the opposite of violence, peace is the absence of violence not the opposite) You can not preach ethics to some that have different idea for this consept if you disagree in even the core idea of right and wrong. It is obvious federation in general have big problem to react to enemies with different ideas of ethics than his owns. Romulans are from a species tha emotion lead them to destruction... Even if the vulcans will disagree, This have 2 logical solution. oppression of emotion (the vulcan Way) Oppression of society (the romulan Way) So yes peace for romulans at this point is self distraction... We see the same with Borg and dominion... (Klingons I think is an exception, the ethical core of Klingons is the same with federation, the approach is different) Something else tha come to mind... Is pike a racist?? And federation in general?? I pretty sure if gorn was in place of romulans pike will have blow them up with not a second thought... Even if they are babies... Is the humanoid form the week point of federation?? Borg and the Founders are human like enough in appearance to federation anthropomorphize them and get in trouble... But alien enough so federation can react even with delay... Romulans in the other hand federation literally ignore them antil the sun blow up!!! (And to come back at the original point federation use this as an excuses to have a culture victory*... If you use a random natural phenomenon to justify your ethical superiority something is wrong!!! Even if you are correct..) And we have see federation have far less problem to attack and destroy things that can not anthropomorphize And even then they stop only if they show a filling that can anthropomorphize... Are dominions and founders correct??? how you can be peaceful with something that is sow alien you have zero connections??? *Now I am wondering if federation have perfect the art of cultural genocide....
I have to say suing for peace isn’t a bad thing. A war ending in a peace treaty is not nessarily a bad thing. Not all wars should be thought to all unconditional surrender
But the idea is that they would expect the Federation to be so concerned with preserving itself that they would take a policy of appeasement. If the Romulans thought the war was no longer advantageous to them, the Federation would agree to peace and give up all the territory they lost. As opposed to the previous Earth Romulan war where the Federation kept fighting on and on and crippled the Romulan ability to keep fighting as an aggressor so they had to give up and retreat from Federation territory
The Romulan commander and his subordinate stated that it would be an etermal war. . OK. But to the time that admiral Pike came from it was only going in for decades. .. I see what you mean, but we only know of it actually being decades.
The episode is poorly written and even worse when compared to the episode "Balance of Terror". First this episode is not a one to one comparison with its original series counterpart this automatically undermines the entire episode. It is clear there are other events that changed the situation that Pike is in. How do we know? Because there is a massive armada few hours to minutes away from the neutral zone and the Federation listening stations did not notice! In Balance of Terror the Romulan fleet was not ready and waiting just on the other side of the boarder. It was a probing attack most likely to help the Praetor decide which direction to send their armies. If this one ship was able to attack and return with no retaliation or challenge from the Federation then they would prepare an attack on the Federation. If it didn't return then the Romulans would expand the other direction. In the Strange New World episode the Praetor was going to attack, her mind was already made up otherwise she wouldn't have had a massive fleet that absolutely should have been seen. If the listening posts could not detect such fleet movement there would no justification for Starfleet to only have two ships that could respond to such an attack. The episode is just nonsensical garbage made worse because it was cribbing on the nostalgia bait of one of the favorite TOS episodes.
You aren’t going to like most of my channel.. as with all videos - I intermix from all the alpha canon sources.. that said.. I sincerely respect the feedback and voting with your watch.
@@LoreReloaded I've been subscribed for a long time & you've got a lot of stuff I like, I merely skip the stuff that references new Trek. Partly because I do not like what I have seen and partly so it is not spoiled should I ever have a change of heart.
That’s more than fair.. We’ve talked before so I know you were just giving me your thoughts. :) I just generally respond similarly. I’ll have older stuff coming soon
@@LoreReloaded You remember me? That means a lot, surprisingly. :) Anyway, you have a good day now, I hope TH-cam treats your channel fairly instead of with their usual baffling idiocy. 😁
In theory this is the Federation after it has been dealing with dozens of member planets and species at this point. Peace and negotiation first policy is probably the only way things work internally. If it was a couple generations ago, Starfleet would be more you hit me I will hit you back mentality without much pause to think about what it would mean in the long run.
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Another reason to not harass the Klingons is because of the fact that they had so easily thrashed the Federation during Discovery season 1. Even if the Strange New Worlds episode is set some years in the future, the Klingon war would still be within living memory.
it was only 2-3 years later... disc klingon war 2256-2257 whie SNW takes place in 2259
I think in balance of terror dialogue. The implied the empire has been expanding on the opposite end of the federation border, the commander said he had fought in a hundred campaigns. And after tomed . The empire was even larger. Perpetual war seems normal. ( the continuing committee of the Senate) with federation conquest being an ultimate goal of the empire
Definetly a good catch and quite possible. I think that still works with the theories here as well
@@LoreReloaded agreed it does your theory ( or point )
I think the motivations here also mirrored their motivations in The Next Generation. Both times they re-emerged as players in the Alpha Quadrant after long periods of quiet, presumably focusing on internal matters and campaigns on the other side of their empire. They possibly hoped the Klingons and Federation would limit each other's growth, but they look back at the Alpha Quadrant and see Federation is expanding unchecked. So maybe they wanted to see what state the Federation was really in after their recent conflict with the Klingons, and whether it would be viable to commit fully to cripple the Federation or if that does not work to, just remind them that the Romulans are there and a still threat. If the Federation has to divert attention to the border and internal security, maybe they are less likely to expand and stretch themselves thin?
My head canon is that the Romulans are what the Vulcan military and military intelligence became after the logic reforms took root in Vulcan society. And duty is what keeps their emotions from overwhelming them. We see that duty is a large part of a Romulans life. Sarek, um I mean the Romulan commander speaks of it in Balance of Terror more than once. So does the female Commander in the Enterprise Incident. Sarek, um the Romulan commander's last duty is to destroy his ship. The female commanders last order to Sub Commander Tal was to destroy the Enterprise even though she was aboard her.
Kirk, in "Balance of Terror" made the right decision, then. Destroying the Warbird was the correct choice.
How dare you! We all know Kirk was the dumbest, most useless, toxic man ever! Kurtzman said so!
I thought he had only crippled it and demanded their surrender. It was the Romulan Commander they initiated the self destruct.
@@danielseelye6005 That was only happenstance. Kirk was going for the kill.
Yes. As he's advised by Spock, and his own understanding if history - aggressive acts must be met with firm and unyielding resolve and response. Appeasement only emboldens the aggressor.
@@sundoga4961 well real world history teaches us this, one would think that sort of logic would be understood.
The Romulans have basically taken the legendary rage they inherited from their ancestors and honed it to a scalpel. It may seem cowardly to only attack the people you KNOW wants peace at all costs, but ultimately it's the correct choice. Logical, even. You focus on merely the internal political reasons, but war also improves technology faster than any other activity, and the Star Empire knows that even should they suffer setbacks, the Federation is way too bound by moral quandaries to nuke civilians indiscriminately, they are not going to lose territory and the Federation have already shown that they would be willing to give some up to secure peace.
This is again why I find Sisko to be my favorite captain, yes he did need some pushing to do so and more than a little help, but ultimately he was the captain who played the Romulans at their own game and managed to not only win, but do so with distinction.
But at the cost of what his uniforms stands for.
That's what I really love about the darker side of the federation (section 31, sisko etc...) they must become the anti-thesis of what they want to protect, federation.
But again, yes, he can live with it :D
@@nekogami87 Lincoln was a leader, but it was Grant and Sherman who won the war. Sherman said it best, "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." Sisko became a Sherman.
Having an enemy like that is Perfect for that kind of people or government(Romulans). They can just keep pushing and pushing, getting as much in concessions, territory and tech as they can until they finally reach the Federation's limit and then back off from just there. They won in the long term and that fits Perfectly with the long living vulcan physiology that the Romulans' probably still have. Think of the Dominion's ideals of being able to wait for a hundreds of years before taking over a planet or government and their territory. It's like that with the Romulans but maybe a bit shorter. They only seem to not have this long viewed strategy and cohesiveness because their government probably goes through several coup's every hundred years or less.
Picard: She's a Prae-a-tor
Ok so clearly this episode is in a seprate timeline. but that is about right for the romulans, pick a fight you know you can win. although im not sure that they actually could win in a protracted war. Romulans don't fight for the sake of it but to achieve other ends. i can see them employing a series of shock campaigns to extract concessions and annex territory.
Oh dude, I could see that timeline and it isn't pretty. Future alt-Pike, I don't recall correctly but might have inferenced about more wars or conflicts than just with the Romulans'. This new Romulan war would open the Feddies to being a 'weak' target and then several more Alpha & Beta quad. powers will take advantage of that. And like you said. If the Romulan's pushed for short hard conflicts to extract more concessions from the Federation JUST so the Feddie's could have a moment to breath and rebuild and reload, this would happen a lot. The Federation territories being shrunk pretty vastly by the time Alt-Pike shows up to change the timeline. The Federation can take A Lot of credit for making newer, better weapons and tech when pushed rather hard but unless it's a real wonder weapon and new ship class that can actually act on it's project's titles capabilities then it just makes things easier, not "war winningly" easier.
as a once female chancellor of the Klingon empire once said "War is Obsolete".The Romulans there highly intellectual,advanced in technology and experimentation,and also cowards.They cant keep there government in line so for the sake of the "praetor"to stay in power it has to declare war on the next big thing?Its basically what the United States does making themselves out to be the target of a major or threatening power due too WMD Propaganda and through all matters of reason.........declare war ?how the hell does that make sense?The romulans and the federation are both at fault for the war the transpires after the the events of this episode.The romulans instigating the whole thing and the federation for playing into there hands.And lets all be honest with ourselves.....if the Praetor ...the ruler of the ROMULAN STAR EMPIRE can only keep there seat of power by feigning ignorance and mustering up its forces and proclaim war over a goddamn border incident ....then they have no reason of being in that seat of power.Let alone an Empire which is basically a big ole goth kid that likes to promote and demonstrate suffering on those just because they whooped your asses about a hundred years ago.The RSE needs to grow the fuck up man .and the rest of you who disagree with statement ...save your breath .The Romulans will always be the aggressors in no matter what situation.PERIOD.AND NO im not siding on the federation nor are they my favorite faction in the STU i believe that as picard said in the 1st season STpic that starfleet was no longer Starfleet .that quote holds true.they instigate skirmishes now too based on fear and past memories of war.in my mind the Federation is broken...in my mind the entirety of the known galactic community of Star trek is broken and in all honesty the one time i ever saw a true future Was when CAPTAIN JOHNATHAN ARCHER STOOD BEFORE THE COUNSEL OF ALL THE ALLIES OF UEA or (UNITED EARTH ALLIANCE) established they be partners of common cause .TO EXPLORE THOSE STRANGE NEW WORLDS AND SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS and TO GO BOLDLY WHERE NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE.
The Federation miss judge an alien culture? You don’t say? They assumed everyone wanted to be stuffed in a play dough mold and sing kumbiya? For the record I despise the facial hair Kurtzman insists on. When did he decide that was a thing? Its like a bearded elf, it just ain’t right.
You make valid points. But, I think the Romulans missed something very important: the rate of technological progress the Federation can make if it chooses to do so. Look at where humans were just 2-300 years prior. Some of that advancement can be attributed to alliances and the formation of the Federation, but not all. There's this little spark of ingenuity in humans of the Star Trek prime universe, that allows them to make major advancements really quick. Also think Wolf 359 vs Sector 001. From a fleet of 40 ships being barely a speed bump, to a fleet being able to harass, delay, and eventually destroy a cube. They were nowhere near a technological peer in either case, but they were far closer at sector 001. And it's not just technology. The tactics were immeasurably better at Sector 001. But, as you say, that's just my opinion.
As always, great video! Keep up the great work!
You are correct about what humans are capable of, both with diplomacy and, when in a pinch, in many areas at once. Andorian Commander Shran said it best, as quoted by Vulcan Ambassador Soval, "Never push the pink skins onto the thin ice."
there is no justification for genocide, but entirely fair to argue their perspective on an ethnocentric jingoist declaration of war… I’d reason it’s no nitpicky between the 2
We don't even know if it is genocidal.
We are told that over a period of, what, 15-20 years some millions of people die. Yes that seems like a big number to us today, and in light of what we know of a certain 20th century war... But consider the population of the whole of the Federation a couple of centuries from now, even if the Human population might not have fully recovered from WW3, it would still be a few billion, and just one species of many in the Federation.
Similarly the Romulans would have their subject races, the Remans and whoever else adding several billion each to their side. We obviously don't have much information in this area, but the numbers have to be significant in order for the Romulans to be an interstellar power on the same level as the Federation and Klingons.
The Cardassians in the 24th century lost some seven million people in just regular warfare against the Federation-Klingon Alliance, and this was considered an acceptable loss so long as it resulted in territorial gains.
A proper genocidal war would see two million dead in Lakarian City alone, and another 800,000,000 dead with more casualty reports coming in. All on just one planet.
@@MahsaKaerra do Romulans demonstrate a history of ethnocentrism and the default doctrine of Romulan superiority? Oh hell yes
Is the genocide the goal of this invasion and war? nothing on screen supports that… it would mean the Romulan [military and state] intend on scrubbing Vulcans, Humans, Tellarites, Andorians, and whatever else member species include themselves with the Federation
Neither are commendable motives, but ethnocentric jingoism ≠ genocide, because words matter
Kirk chasing down the Bird Of Prey and destroying it also showed the flaws of the plasma weapon combined with the cloaking device, thus prompting the Romulans to back off and acquire/capture and copy Klingon D7s (I'm not willing to say 'ally' with the Klingons like Beta-Canon often says. Also to me it doesn't seem very 'Klingon' to ally with an inferior)
Pike on the other hand showed the Romulans that the Federation is ripe for conquest. As I said before, Pike is still a part of Georgiou's generation of making peace offerings first. Kirk is more Burnham's generation.
burnham is quite a number of years older than kirk she's born 2226. she's even older than mccoy.
@@joeswanson733
By generation, I mean when they became Captain. (Or would have become Captain in Burnham's case) Not necessarily by age.
Both Burnham and Kirk would have seen Captaincies after the Klingon war, while Georgiou and Pike assumed command before.
@@joshualau4070 yeah Burnham is a complicated story considering her time skip as she never officially attained captaincy in the 23rd century
@@joeswanson733
True, but let's assume for the moment her career progressed naturally.
@@joshualau4070 I think burnham would be cookoo even by kirks standards
In my head-canon, the Romulans were the LESS emotional and violent branch of the family. The violent emotional Vulcans nearly killed themselves before deciding that their uncontrolled emotions would be their doom, and deliberately chose a life of peace. The Romulans on the other hand never had to reform their society, and so still harbor the cruel conniving aggression that they all once had.
That's how it goes in my head, at any rate.
Is this a continuation of your "Radical Peace" narrative from a previous video? This idea that diplomacy is not a generally a better alternative than war is unbelievably hawkish. You are promoting the type of philosophy one would expect to see from the Klingons not the Federation.
I’m literally just talking about what’s occurring in the story.. nothing more, nothing less..
Having found that Paramount+ came with my Sky Cinema I was able to binge watch STW, but just found it visually expansive but so confusing. I assume now that this is yet ANOTHER Star Trek Universe spin off, as in the Enterprise/Archer universe the Romulans had been trying to infiltrate Vulcan (which in another universe was destroyed), and there was that war with the Romulans which is the original was fought with more primitive weapons, neither side seeing each other. Maybe they should stop trying to squeeze more from the same cracked pitcher and concentrate on something new - like for example the Dept of Temporal Investigations, or the Typhon pact. Otherwise its like trying to read several different novels or assembling a jigsaw with the pieces from 4 or 5 boxes.
Ok so you are taking the approach the Romulan leader ship could only keep its people in line by showing they were strong. Ok I can follow that, so the Praetor is weak but needs an easy victory so we have the Klingons who they feel would kick their asses so turn to the Federation who are to foolish to not call the Romulans on their crap. The problem is the Romulan leader ship is weak and fears a rebellion but knows a show of strength is the best measure to avoid this. But Lore you make an interesting point the Romulans saw or remembered the teachings of Vulcan and what that lead to, but you for got one key peace of info. Vulcan after the war of emotion was over was a peaceful place they were strong but if you could take the heat Vulcan was a nice place. You saw the Vulcans sued for a peace at all costs I saw the Vulcans held a measure of restraint because until the 24th century the Vulcans were among the strongest powers in the Alpha Quadrant. Vulcan tech was just as good if not better than any power in the 22nd century and was still on par with many, many races. So is it weakness if you have a surplus of atomic bombs and could wipe out your enemies in a second but decide to try and talk it out first to avoid a long costly war. I'll let you decide.
Part of me is thinking they are taking inspiration from Diane Duane’s Rihansu
The fact the Romulans were on the viewscreen is the final nail in the coffin for me to create a head canon that fits together all of trek, including legacy and Nutrek. I like the story sure, and as a standalone story without any universe behind it I'd still very much enjoy it, but I still think keeping to the canon is sacred. Therefore, final nail in the coffin.
i'm not sure what you mean by this. The Romulans were on the viewscreen in Balance of Terror.
@@TheCsel but not before that time. A key point in balance of terror was that no one knew what the romulans looked like.
That's a dice-y calculation......who's to say there won't be a 3rd side to jump in and make an attempt on Romulus. Didn't some Klingons help Earth for the earlier pre-Fed war?
Yeah, I suspect both sides would be using political influence to try to get the Klingons to join their side against the other if Pike started a war here. its hard to say since the Federation was recently at war with the Klingons, but the Klingons are unpredictable enough who knows. They might find more honor in siding with the humans that were able to stand up to them, instead of the Romulans. Or likely some Klingon houses might join both sides and start another Klingon Civil War.
Yeah Japenese thought the same thing about us in 1940. How'd that go.
First like, first view, first comment!
Romulans were supposed to be based on the Roman empire
seems far fetched
@@TheCsel you kidding ? ( romulus and remus ) ( romeusand remus ) consil pr cpnsonl , preator . Senate. , legions. All Roman empire titles. ( except the have the preator in the wrong position)
Justified is very much the wrong word. The Praetor’s attitude may make sense from her perspective, but that does not make it justified
basically in praetors mind its' justified to save her own empire from collapsing in on itself. obviouslly from the outside it's beyond f-ed up.
Is it just me or does the sub commander look like he has a dip in
I don't understand the canonical errors the romulans should never showed their faces. They should be mysterious unknowable.
I mean it’s not a canonical error.. this is when they shower their face .. same time as balance of terror
@@LoreReloaded Didn't Sulu in this episode said something along the lines of that when Romulan ships were last seen, viewscreens were not really a thing quite yet, and ships communicated through radio, so all the descriptions they have got left from that time was that romulan ships looked like "war birds"?
I may be obviously remembering episode and this particular line wrongly, but if that was what he has said then whole war happening during pike's Era would be continuity issue.
Right.. so the episode happens in lieu of that one.. it was an alternate universe / elseworld thing
I saw some clips from this show, and I do consider SNWs to be the best of a bad lot. Not a high bar to clear but what the heck. But the Romulans were acting more like Klingons then Romulans. and that CGI of the "FLEET" OMG it was just horrible.
The Romulans in TOS were like Klingons, the writers swapped the intended roles. And while it could have been better, the fleet was equal or better than most other series shots of fleets. Star Trek tends to just copy paste the same model and cram them as close as possible and call it a fleet battle.
How do you differentiate between Romulan and Cardassian nationalism?
If the Romulan Empire was up against Picard's federation perhaps picking a fight would be wise. This is Pike's federation, not even Kirk's at this point in time, one or two steps from Captain Archer himself. I don't think the Romulans would be ready for a federation willing so quickly to fight and keep fighting. Much more double fist punching back then.
I agree, it really hasn't been that long since the Earth Romulan war, and there are probably some Vulcans and Romulans still alive that remember it. I think the Romulans could have observed the Federation dealings with other species like the Klingons though. The Federation has a lot more member worlds now, worlds to protect and worlds that get a voice in decision making. So they seem to be a little more ready to appease an aggressive neighbor, maybe relocate colonies on a few border worlds. But at the end of the day, the Federation still remembers the Romulans and can only be pushed so far. I think in Kirk's day once they start fighting the Romulans, they will keep going until they know they hurt them enough they will think twice about doing it again.
pikes federation got so decimated by the klingon wars from DISC they're scrambling. it wouldn't be until kirks time in TOS that they finally rebuilt the fleet from ground up.
You spelled "Dissidence" wrong.
The biggest problem with pike I think is that even if technical is an "atheist secular humanism"
In the ather hand you can say is religious in a way
For some reason believe that ethics is universal at some degree and have no reason why to believe difference the first episode prove exactly this. And maybe you can do an argument for some universality in ethics for humans this idea is definitely not correct for aliens...
And this flow is what leads federation in disasters at the future like you point in the previous video. You can not do freedom with people that are at the core different than you and they wond your destruction.
Some times peace is more violence than attack
(I call it attack and I don't call it violence because for me this is anti-violence and be definition is the opposite of violence, peace is the absence of violence not the opposite)
You can not preach ethics to some that have different idea for this consept if you disagree in even the core idea of right and wrong.
It is obvious federation in general have big problem to react to enemies with different ideas of ethics than his owns.
Romulans are from a species tha emotion lead them to destruction...
Even if the vulcans will disagree, This have 2 logical solution.
oppression of emotion (the vulcan Way)
Oppression of society (the romulan Way)
So yes peace for romulans at this point is self distraction...
We see the same with Borg and dominion...
(Klingons I think is an exception, the ethical core of Klingons is the same with federation, the approach is different)
Something else tha come to mind...
Is pike a racist??
And federation in general??
I pretty sure if gorn was in place of romulans pike will have blow them up with not a second thought... Even if they are babies...
Is the humanoid form the week point of federation??
Borg and the Founders are human like enough in appearance to federation anthropomorphize them and get in trouble... But alien enough so federation can react even with delay...
Romulans in the other hand federation literally ignore them antil the sun blow up!!!
(And to come back at the original point federation use this as an excuses to have a culture victory*... If you use a random natural phenomenon to justify your ethical superiority something is wrong!!! Even if you are correct..)
And we have see federation have far less problem to attack and destroy things that can not anthropomorphize
And even then they stop only if they show a filling that can anthropomorphize...
Are dominions and founders correct???
how you can be peaceful with something that is sow alien you have zero connections???
*Now I am wondering if federation have perfect the art of cultural genocide....
When all your enemies or possible enemies are dead, only then do you have peace.
No... your own people with differing ideas are the enemy. Time itself is an enemy.
Only the dead are at peace.
I have to say suing for peace isn’t a bad thing. A war ending in a peace treaty is not nessarily a bad thing. Not all wars should be thought to all unconditional surrender
But the idea is that they would expect the Federation to be so concerned with preserving itself that they would take a policy of appeasement. If the Romulans thought the war was no longer advantageous to them, the Federation would agree to peace and give up all the territory they lost. As opposed to the previous Earth Romulan war where the Federation kept fighting on and on and crippled the Romulan ability to keep fighting as an aggressor so they had to give up and retreat from Federation territory
"Justified"
Lore is playing devils advocate for the Greasy Romulans..it.
You by that absolution are a ROMULAN.
The war lasts centuries? Who said that.... it's is stated it was going on for decades...
It was called a never ending war
The Romulan commander and his subordinate stated that it would be an etermal war. . OK. But to the time that admiral Pike came from it was only going in for decades. .. I see what you mean, but we only know of it actually being decades.
The episode is poorly written and even worse when compared to the episode "Balance of Terror". First this episode is not a one to one comparison with its original series counterpart this automatically undermines the entire episode. It is clear there are other events that changed the situation that Pike is in. How do we know? Because there is a massive armada few hours to minutes away from the neutral zone and the Federation listening stations did not notice! In Balance of Terror the Romulan fleet was not ready and waiting just on the other side of the boarder. It was a probing attack most likely to help the Praetor decide which direction to send their armies. If this one ship was able to attack and return with no retaliation or challenge from the Federation then they would prepare an attack on the Federation. If it didn't return then the Romulans would expand the other direction. In the Strange New World episode the Praetor was going to attack, her mind was already made up otherwise she wouldn't have had a massive fleet that absolutely should have been seen. If the listening posts could not detect such fleet movement there would no justification for Starfleet to only have two ships that could respond to such an attack. The episode is just nonsensical garbage made worse because it was cribbing on the nostalgia bait of one of the favorite TOS episodes.
leave it to an American trying to justify war of aggression and genocide 😅
Learn to troll better
Oh it's about new Trek, I hope the video does well but I'm out.
You aren’t going to like most of my channel.. as with all videos - I intermix from all the alpha canon sources.. that said.. I sincerely respect the feedback and voting with your watch.
@@LoreReloaded I've been subscribed for a long time & you've got a lot of stuff I like, I merely skip the stuff that references new Trek. Partly because I do not like what I have seen and partly so it is not spoiled should I ever have a change of heart.
That’s more than fair.. We’ve talked before so I know you were just giving me your thoughts. :) I just generally respond similarly. I’ll have older stuff coming soon
@@LoreReloaded You remember me? That means a lot, surprisingly. :) Anyway, you have a good day now, I hope TH-cam treats your channel fairly instead of with their usual baffling idiocy. 😁
Imposing human ideals and morality upon inhuman beings is illogical at best.
In theory this is the Federation after it has been dealing with dozens of member planets and species at this point. Peace and negotiation first policy is probably the only way things work internally. If it was a couple generations ago, Starfleet would be more you hit me I will hit you back mentality without much pause to think about what it would mean in the long run.
with time travel you can now rewrite OG star trek but im going to wait and see for now