I loved Robert O'Reilly for his bombastic actions and his facial expressions. Just imagine how over the top he would've looked if he _didn't_ have all that Klingon makeup?
No one will talk about Picard. People refuse to now. The people who celebrate Nu-Trek never understood Star Trek. They really are sick in the head. They are tied to a Brand name and not the Spirt of the Characters, World, Stories, and Morals it made to pass on. Shame on them while they speak of Nu-Trek which is a caricature of Star Trek.
When Gowron would speak of honor and glory, he always emphasized the word glory, and that’s the leader he became, seeking glory over all other considerations.
The last question brought to mind something Odo said to Kira in season 3, that "Giving people freedom of choice also means they're free to make the wrong one". If Dukat was less of a massive egotist, it's possible that he could have made a case to the Cardassian people that joining the Dominion was in their best interest and been convincing enough that they would vote for it... instead of what he actually does, which is unilaterally take Cardassia into the Dominion and then present his case after it's too late to stop him.
Yeah. "Do they have the right to choose the Dominion if they wanted to?" wasn't really a good question. They're a sovereign nation, of course they have the right to ally with whoever they feel like. But that doesn't mean the Klingons and Federation have to just accept that they now have the ally of a threatening major power sitting on their doorstep. Taking into consideration who an agreement like that will piss off is part of a government's job, so if the Detapa Council didn't bother doing their homework, that's on them. The fact that the switch was done in a really shady way gives the Klingons and Federation all the moral standing they could want to invade. After all, the Cardassian-Dominion alliance was set up suddenly, in secret, and greatly benefits the major power who has a demonstrated track record of infiltrating and subverting other governments. There's _no way_ that wouldn't look suspiciously like the Detapa Council had been infiltrated.
@@tba113 Yeah, but that's not what happened. The Detapa Council were, as far as Starfleet could tell, genuinely what they appeared to be. The Klingons sort of have a point, at least as far as the fact that if the Dominion hadn't destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian population would not have been able to rise up and demand that the military give the Detapa Council the power they were supposed to have had in the first place (Dukat told Sisko in season 3 that "In theory, they [the Obsidian Order] answer to the Detapa Council, just as the military do. In practice, we both run our own affairs" ). The Klingons invade Cardassia at the start of season 4, but Dukat doesn't bring Cardassia into the Dominion until the middle of season 5; over a year later
It's important to also take notice that all these events mentioned in this video practically Force the Cardassian People into making the worst possible scenario that affects everyone in the alpha quadrant. They align themselves with the Dominion which gives them a foothold to wage war with both the federation Klingons and romulans. Everything is practically a domino effect that led to a greater effect that cost millions of lives.
*Sisko:* You know, the Klingons are probably right. The Dominion knew that the Obsidian Order were walking into a trap and would be well placed to exploit the opportunity. I say we sit back and let them have it out with the Cardassians. Anyway any government that would have Gul Dukat in it can't be good. *Kira:* You had me with that last point. *Sisko:* The question we face now is… do we aide the Klingons due to the Kitimar accords? *O'Brien:* I say we give the Klingons the same level of help that they gave us during the Border Wars. *Kira:* I don't know what the truth really is, all I know is that "pro Klingon" banners are about to be hung all over Bajor. If I understand Human culture correctly, I'm supposed to replicate popcorn now?
I honestly think you can't blame the Klingons for not helping the Federation during the Border Wars. I also wouldn't help someone with a war they themselves won't even commit to actually fighting. The Federation alone was decades ahead of the Cardassians technologically, it had more manpower and material too, but it still allowed the Cardassians to kick its ass and strongarm it into forfeiting territory because it was governed by a bunch of pussies. Did you know that not even a single Galaxy class was committed to the frontlines? They fought this war exclusively with outdated ships not suited for war because their capable warships were off cartographing nebula or whatever the fuck. Which by the way is a huge waste of manpower and material. It's simply properly Klingon to be disgusted or at best bemused by such spinelessness, and it is also perfectly rational to not commit to fighting your ally's war for them if they themselves blatantly demonstrate that they aren't even committed to fighting it themselves.
@@tarvoc746 The thing is, the Galaxy and Ambassadors are difficult ships to build in bulk. In the 2350s, the Galaxy-class was blueprints and even if actually built, only 6 ships were made at the time of TNG. Why? Because building the most advanced technology known to the Alpha quadrant at the time requires a lot of advanced resources and technical knowledge. Since war is also about building in bulk, the Federation still had to rely on overworked, underpowered vessels to cover all the space necessary and they just don't have enough ships, hence "we're the only ship in range." It's also important to note that the Federation ALSO had border wars with Tzenkethi, the Talarians, and probably the Shelliak. Thus, Starfleet is consistently stretched thin. We can infer why this peaceful, exploratory civilization seemed to be at war and it wasn't because all these other races liked fighting for its own sake. I would say it's the Federation's incredibly careless colonization program where a group of civilians can set up a colony using whatever form of government they like. It happened so often the TNG crew were often surprised to run into a colony they didn't know existed for years. Well, for the Cardassians, they suddenly got neighbors on planets they thought they were going to colonize first. The Feds, being constantly overstretched, simply did not have the ships and resources necessary to cover these colonies, which necessitated the bizarre treaties we see in the show where the Feds just give up lots of planets based on Sykes-Picot lines.
My question is: If Martok is a changeling at the start of Way of the Warrior and passes the blood check, when they later find out he was a changeling why do they continue to use blood checks if Martok was able to fake it?
He connduct test them self. If somone catch him off gaurd then test will show he is changeling. Every test can be cheated but first you have to know there will be that test.
I would assume according to the viewers at home. Since the Klingons only really need enough justification to keep the Federation from bothering them about it. And the Federation uses war as the absolute last resort even when the Dominion was funneling their military into Cardassia. And I say “even when” because it wasn’t the Federation who declared war. it was Sisko.
Yes, he was justified 100% in the Cardassian invasion because he knew that would be a good reason for Michael Dorn to star in DS9, and the show would have some good battle scenes. See? Gowron thinks ahead! 🤣💪👍
I'm reminded of this line. "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." -- Jean-Luc Picard, Captain, USS Enterprise. "TNG: The Drumhead"
Attacking the Cardassians only weakened them further, to the point of desperation. It drove them right into the arms of the Dominion. Dukat undoubtedly saw joining the Dominion as the only way to make Cardassia -great- strong again, and at that point the Cardassians were desperate enough not to question him or his advice. Either way, it makes no sense: fighting amongst each other is _not_ the way to defeat a common enemy. The Founders were able to exploit this weakness - a lack of unity in the Alpha Quadrant - for a long time.
If the Federation (or at least Starfleet) wanted to ascertain whether the civilian leadership were changelings or not, the ideal solution would have been to insert intelligence operatives and gain samples surreptitiously. The extermination and collapse of the Obsidian Order (the Cardassian intelligence service) opened the way for other powers to begin successful infiltration of Cardassia. For all the guff they get, Section 31 would have been ideal for this, and could (probably) have gained the information without causing a massive incident (granted, if they discovered that they *were* changelings, Section 31 is also likely to blow up the building housing the Detapa Council while it is in session). Unfortunately, the Klingon version of "investigation" was to invade the Cardassian Empire, conquer the entire country, and execute the leaders to see if they collapse into a puddle of ooze. While the smart move would be to ask the Federation to investigate, while coordinating with Starfleet to prepare for a thorough invasion as an insurance policy, the Martok-Changeling had a self-serving politician he could convince to invade to make the High Council happy with him. The meeting with "Martok" always struck me as a little weird. "Martok" accused Starfleet of betrayal for refusing to assist the invasion, but the Klingons were doing everything they could to keep the Federation in the dark about their intentions. Had they been successful, the Klingons would have up and surged into Cardassian space with virtually no warning whatsoever - the way they kept their fleet cloaking and decloaking to hide their numbers, most of the ships could have crossed the border and begun hitting targets before the DS9 crew knew any of the vessels had departed. It has long bothered me that Sisko didn't call "Martok" out on his B.S. about the Federation not helping, since it is obvious that they never wanted the Federation involved at all. A major war like that would require the repositioning of ships and troops, as well as arranging the logistics to support them. This is not something they could snap their fingers and accomplish. It would likely take months for Starfleet to switch gears like that, especially as I would expect them to be prepared for a defense-in-depth to absorb any Dominion offensive coming out of the wormhole, stall it out, and them push it back, rather than risk having a large fleet right near the wormhole where it could be overwhelmed by surprise and a lack of intelligence as to the numbers of the enemy forces. The only explanation that comes to mind is that, being a mere Captain, Sisko simply did not think is such wide strategic terms yet, and was just addressing the problem in front of him, rather than the larger implications.
One of my favorite elements of this is that Gowron was never taken over by a changeling. His thirst for conquest was entirely his own, even if he was deftly manipulated Changelings. A great signal of the general complicity of the Klingons in the ensuing bloodbath.
I liked this Breakdown of the Cardassian government and conversion of that government. I wish that was explored more but I always paid way more attention to the Klingon invasion rather than the Cardassian politics of season 4-5 of Deep Space Nine. I wish that we saw more of the new Cardassian politics in DS9 between season 4-5 before joining the Dominion.
Probably have been a Fed/ Klingon war that would have seriously wrecked both and put the Romulans in the Alpha.Beta quadrant driver's seat. The Dominion would probably have been discovered much later if at all.
intresting. i think there are also factors beyond Gowron's control which pushed him. the question of legitimacy for one; he basically becomes chancellor by default, his only real opposition were a boy and two infamous sisters. so after a while people were probably wanting him to prove his credentials. Second is the Nostalgia for the Sovi... i mean 23rd century empire which was a absoloute military machine. so there was probably a desire to recapture that spirit. its why they attacked in the way they did; how they would have in the 23rd century.
There's another factor at play regarding Gowron's legitimacy: the Arbiter of Succession overseeing his selection as Chancellor was Picard... an outsider. Although both K'mpec may have chosen him believing him to be more trustworthy and he might have agreed on the same basis, that's not how it'd play out in the political arena. It did nothing to avert the civil war and quite likely the fact that an outsider served as Arbiter was used to question his legitimacy. Support for the Duras faction only collapsed when it was shown that he was backed by a more hated outsider in the Romulans, but this wouldn't have removed the questions of legitimacy surrounding Gowron. Gowron and his backers likely wanted to show that they weren't Federation patsies. Incidentally, this is precisely why the Prime Directive exists. It's not there to condone genocide, but to avoid situations like the Klingon Civil War. Picard getting involved at best did nothing to avert the war and at worst fanned the flames. And Starfleet's later lack of involvement in the fighting under the guise of the Prime Directive was really bad optics. The Federation is willing to get involved in the internal affairs of others at the highest levels... but they'll conveniently cite the good old PD if it involves putting themselves at risk. They'll choose the Klingon leader but avoid the ensuing fighting, which given what we learned from "Yesterday's Enterprise" was a grievous insult to the Klingons. Nostalgia for the 23rd century was definitely a factor as many of Kirk's contemporaries were still around and had influence. Had the Federation continued to show the military prowess that had ultimately prevailed in the cold war with the Klingons, it might have been an acceptable state of affairs for the Klingons. The sacrifice of Enterprise-C at Narendra III showed the Klingons that there was plenty of warrior spirit in humans, that underneath the honeyed words lies the savage beast that Quark (and Kirk) spoke of. Those humans were a people worth allying with. But the Galen Border Conflict, the Federation-Cardassian War, the Tzinkethi War, the non-involvement in the Klingon Civil War all showed that the Federation was so afraid of getting a bloody nose that they'd try to avoid conflict even when they had an decisive technological and material edge. However, the Talarians and Cardassians (we don't know about the Tzinkethi) committed acts of terrorism that drew the Federation into a war anyways. And despite fighting three recent wars, parts of Starfleet still insisted they weren't a military. Where did the fighting spirit of humans go? Why continue to ally with a people who display such weakness, who continue to avoid a war with the Dominion when it was clear that the only choices were war or submission?
Space mines move. Episode ‘Call to Arms’ has O’Brien, Dax and Rom discussing mining the wormhole. The mines designed are programmed to ‘Swarm Detonate’. These mines detect ships and they fly towards them. You’d also concentrate mines along the likeliest paths in and out of a system as intra system warp is considered dangerous (By Inferno’s Light).
He was. The changelings were everywhere. The cardassians were never trust worthy. If he hadn't attacked the Cardassians, there would have been that many more ships to fight later on.
The main person who wanted the war was general martok who in reality was a changeling, if the war never happened cardassia would never have been so desperate for help that theyd join the dominion, the dominion wanted the war
The only help needed from the Dominion to overthrow the Cardassian military government was the destruction of the Obsidian Order. No founders needed. Therefor, Gowron's attack was not justified.
First. Maybe. Also, yes he was. The Founders showed themselves frighteningly adept at destabilizing powerful regimes that have stood for hundreds of years. For all Gowron knew, the High Council was next, if it hadn’t been infiltrated already. The massive civilian casualties are hard to justify, but the motive is understandable.
Never understood why the obsidian order was literally destroyed by the omicron nebula incident; they literally pulled ALL its agents and staff from ALL its operations across the cardassian empire and in other worlds for this one operation?? If the TalShiar survived the incident in terms of staff, it stands to reason that an organisation like the Order with a rival reputation would've had the sense not to put all its eggs in one nest.
I guess we'll never know for sure unless there is some canon confirmation of a few of the grey areas. Following the failed Cardassian/Romulan attack on the Founders, the female Changeling vowed to wipe out the Cardassians. To that end it would make sense for them to manipulate someone else into doing just that and it looks like that happened with it being a fairly safe bet Martok had already been replaced (although I don't recall that ever being 100% confirmed the Martok in Way of the Warrior was a Changeling yet). To that end it would also make sense to destabilise Cardassia and to the Dominion replacing military led fascism with a democratic civilian government would lead to chaos and a weaker state. However the parts of this that don't make sense is that we don't see anything like this happening against the Romulans. No invasions, no overthrow of government. Maybe the Dominion wanted to focus on Cardassia first? Doesn't seem to fit their pattern. Also why do they then ally themselves with Cardassia? They must be aware of their already weakened state and dubious merits as a military ally. Maybe their game plan all along is simply to use the Cardassian Union as a foothold in the Alpha quadrant? It's proximity to the wormhole make it a good location. Weakening them via the Klingons makes them more willing to accept their help with slowly turns into an occupation. It is interesting that the Dominion also courts the Romulans as potential allies too. Had they done that and won the war would would female Changeling theat have been carried out after the defeat of the Klingons and Federation? Gone off topic away from the original question here but in short, no Gowron is not right in what he did. With the Dominion threat it was foolish to waste military resources in a petty war. Better to prepare and consolidate his own empire against the real threat.
I don't think this is a 1:1 Comparison to the events of today that you may, or may not be alluding to, but Gowron's actions do seem to be similar to other individuals' actions.
@@Mia199603 Sorry, it was intentionally vague as it pertains to a comment @Lorereloaded said on Twitter about the video. Basically it was a comparison to the Ukrain/Russia conflict that is currently going on and their respective leaders.
I think ego has more to do with distorting the facts enough to justify such unwarranted aggression. You should have hard proof before committing forces to battle. Gowron has plenty of the former and none of the latter.
Honestly even as a kid I thought gowron was right the Klingon Empire would have stabilized the region and kept it that much safer with federation support
I'm not sure if the Cardassians at that point of time were on the side of the Founders, or if the Founders staged the Klingon Invasion to drive the Cardassians towards their side. Or if they pulled a Palpatine and were manipulating both sides.
@@farantir Given that Martok turned out to be a Changeling, it seems extremely likely that the Klingon invasion of Cardassia was part of their plan. Similarly, they planted the fake information into Odo that _Gowron_ was the Changeling, hoping to subsequently damage Federation-Klingon relations even further. I don't know if the Founders foresaw that Cardassia would want to join the Dominion, or even had an active part in it. I always interpreted it as a (for them) fortunate happenstance, made possible by Dukat's ego.
@@LoreReloaded Yeah, they do a blood screening on the Cardassian Civilian Gouvernment, indicating that they are legit, but maybe the Founders infiltrated Central Command and gave the Dissident Movement the Opportunity for victory. Thats never really answered, but its a possibility.
Lore's point is that no matter that Martok was a Changeling, it was Gowron's nature to do what he did. Changeling Martok just gave him the caesus belli.
Justification is a difficult distinction to make when dealing with cultures and governments within the same species and nearly impossible with different species. The Klingons as a culture seem to lean towards fierce territoriality which is likely influenced by their invasion by the Hurk and other early alien encounters. They also tend to be suspicious, which was likely heightened by the recent defeat of the combined Tal’Shiar and Obsidian Order fleets. From what we know canonically about the apparent majority of Humans and Klingons, was it justified in the view of general Human morality- no, was it justified in general Klingon culture and morality- yes. Was it ethical- no. From the various episodes and movies in which the Klingons appear, they tend to have a highly aggressive stance towards perceived threats while Humans/Starfleet tend to focus on understanding and diplomacy even to their detriment as in Khan’s ambush of the Enterprise, the recently depicted Battle of the Binary Stars, and encounters with phenomena like the Doomsday Machine. The Klingons were always an allegory for the Soviet Union and Russia following its collapse, and even in the mid 90s Russia had hard line officials who called for securing the ‘buffer zone’ that the Baltic and Central European countries provided and we’re now seeing the tragic repercussions of this continuing defensive doctrine.
You contradicted yourself when you talked about morality and how difficult it is when culture and government are considered into the situation then following that with your answers, "no" for Humans and "yes" for Klingons. It's an easy answer for you considering the culture and government that you are use to. But have you ever considered what another human outside of your culture and government has to say about it?
@@shawn092182 I was referring to our general information in the context of Star Trek canonical material, when it comes to perceived threats the morals and cultural stance among humans are greatly weighed towards understanding and diplomacy while the Klingons have frequently had a shoot first policy. We see these facts with the reactions to V’ger in The Motion Picture, with how the survivor of the disabled Klingon ship reacted in Enterprise, how the Klingon captain hunts the Enterprise-A even though it threatens the uneasy peace and his own ambassador in Final Frontier, how Chang has the Bird of Prey attack the Chancellor’s ship WHILE HE’S STILL ON IT in Undiscovered Country, when a rare bacteria eats through the hulls of both a Bird of Prey and the Enterprise-D the Klingon captain’s reaction is to assume an attack, when the crew of the Enterprise encounter species like the Borg they often wait until the last minute to go on full alert, in Wrath of Khan the Enterprise doesn’t raise shields until the Reliant raises theirs and is in point blank range of the Enterprise. Sadly, DS9 was the first Star Trek show to work with serialized storytelling so we didn’t get to see races like the Klingons in more a more central role and instead have to gather facts from the various shows and movies in which the Klingon appear.
it occurs to me that although the council weren't changelings, that doesn't necesarily mean the Dominion weren't in some way influencing the Cadassians think about that
I mean, they did destroy the Obsidian Order. The group pretty much responsible for ensuring the compliance of all Cardassians. Not to mention manipulating the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar into attacking the founders in the first place.
LOL, I had to rewatch part of the video because I zoned out, totally mesmerized watching Worf just demolish Klingon warrior after warrior in the background. TNG had him jobbing to the threat of the week so often I forgot how much ass he kicked in DS9.
Loved Gowron! His F-U, attitude and crazy eyes were awesome! Hated that he was killed by Worf. I always hoped there would have been some way for Worf to show Gowron that he was not acting with Honor, and somehow help redeem him. Although having Martok as the new Chancellor was also good. I liked Martok; he was very Honorable.
First correction, the Cardassian Union before the Battle of the Omarion Nebula always had three bodies in its government. It was just that the Obsidian Order had the most power, then was the Central Command, and finally the token civilian-run Detapa Council. When the Obsidian Order was wiped out in the Battle of the Omarion Nebula the power vacuum allowed the Detapa Council to rally the people against the Central Command. Second correction, the Battle of the Omarion Nebula was a plot by the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. While the Tal Shiar took a hit it was nothing compared to the Obsidian Order which ceased to exist.
The fight between fans of Berman/Roddenberry Trek and fans of Bad Robot(Abrams)/Secret Hideout(Abrams chosen successor's) Trek is over the spirit of the thing, not anything else. For Example, I'd say ST: 2009 was an excellent Star Wars film, as that was its spirit, its feel.
I believe it was kira that made a good point in the episode that the dissident movement had been gaining ground for some time and "with the obsidian order out of the way...." The only Dominion interference was from the martok changeling. While the dominion's destruction of the obsidian order helped, it was not a direct effort to overthrow the entire government.
really my thing is even if the Cardassians where taken over by the Dominion via the Coup The Klingons should have just staged a large fleet permanently at DS9 that would have stop or slowed down any dominion invasion The dominion only had one way into the Alpha quadrant so it doesn't matter what happens on any planet ships can only come from the worm hole
I guess the question would be when was Martok replaced? Also just because the Da'tapa council was clear does not mean there had not been a Founder on Cardassia manipulating the the overthrow of the government. I would say it would have been safer for them to remain on Cardassia.
I fail to understand how the battle of the Omarion nebula hurt the cardassia s. That was a fleet of ships the obsidian order wasn’t even supposed to have. Normally central command was in charge of defense of cardassian territory.
Gowron risked losing a potential ally in the case of a war with the Dominion. (After what the Obsidian order pulled, the Cardassians would be unlikely to be buddy buddy with the Dominion for a while.) Worst, he alienated his most important, already existing ally, the Federation, and ultimately ended up pushing the Cardassians into the arms of the dominion. While his war did make sense from a certain perspective, it helped stabilize his position and appeased the more traditionist Klingons within his empire, from a geopolitical... or should i say, astropolitical standpoint, this was a gamble at best, and one that did not pay off. It almost doomed the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Now, we do not know just how contested his own position was, or what false information the Marthok changeling planted to convince him of Dominion influence in Cardassia, so from his perspective it might have been the logical, or even the only choice. But it does not speak highly of him as a ruler that he let himself get to this point. Even without suspecting Marthok being a Changeling, he should still have questioned the motives of someone just presenting that kind of info (When that someone is a general and not their chief of intelligence), and the validity of those claims. And being unable to keep order in his empire so he would not have to push for a war at the wrong time just to appease some sabre rattlers (Even if you are a Klingon.) is not a good sign either. In the end, being justified means nothing if you start a war. What matters if you win( In which case you write whatever justification you want in the history books anyway.) or if you lose. (In which case, you will be made out to be the bad guy, no matter what your reasons were.)
I think the proper mover would have been to keep a close eye on the new cardassian government and pursue more diplomatic avenues. At the same time planning out strategies or contingencies for the most likely outcomes, and maybe some unlikely ones. The increased diplomatic efforts could help with keeping on eye on the gov't as well as building some trust that might pay off later if they start moving towards the dominion. I also feel I should point out if someone has not only the resources but the will to mine that area of space they could probably do it. Or maybe the plan was to use enough mines to make travel to the sector to dangerous to travel or increase travel times to the point of not being practical because of how much a ship would have to divert to avoid them. That is for civilian shipping
Borrowing from Star Wars here but I could see “Warp mines” being a thing. Kinda a mix with that long range torpedo in Voyager. Just a big torpedo that detects when something enters warp nearby and makes a b-line for it, also at warp. Hyperspace mines work better in the Star Wars universe, but there’s definitely stuff in trek to reason it.
Most of the Trek mines are of the captor variety - from a single torpedo encased in a shell on a command relay, on up to shielded 4 shot launchers that replicate their own ammo and have a starship's sensor suite & a primitive AI. One thing that all but the very most expensive have in common - they're not after YOU, they're after your warp field (Only the very expensive minefeids with either sensor towers or the very top end captor mines could even detect the ship it's self - although some of those could see right through a cloaking device) P.S. I spell no tailgating, "NSM - Nuclear Space Mine - No Tailgating"
@@baltham0 Is that the term for things like the Star Wars "legends" continuity? It's from the formerly canon "Star Fleet Battles" board game, not sure if that's currently considered Apha canon, Beta canon, or merely apocrypha today. (Was "hard canon" in it's day, with showrunners freely "borrowing" ships & design rules directly from the game)
@@muninrob yeah, anything that is not prime universe tv and movies is considered alpha canon. It's all detailed in Star Trek's decades running wikia "memory alpha." Everything else, the video games, novels, and table top is considered beta canon which is detailed in the wikia "memory beta."
That bit about the Klingon plan to mine the entire Bajoran sector, along with issues in the show such as Operation Return and other battles seeming to show space as 2 dimensional and easy to block and barricade has me thinking. Trek should have some kind of trek-scifi-science reason that nearly all spaceflight and especially military transportation within or near a solar system seems to be along the plane of a spinning star's equator and the system's material disk. Maybe an idea such as: traveling at warp speed within or very close to a star system at an angle that is perpendicular to the spin (and material disk) of the star is highly problematic at warp and transwarp or even downright dangerous, as going "against the grain" of the system's gravitational spin makes it extremely hard to maintain a stable warp bubble, say allowing only very low warp speed but at greatly increased energy output to maintain even those low warp bubbles, and higher warp speeds and transwarp in such situations becomes energy prohibitive or risks potential damage or destruction of the ship. When it comes to military actions they could also add that even approaching the sector at impulse from perpendicular to the system's gravitational spin makes the ships incredibly easy to detect, even if they are cloaked, because there is no material disk of various matter in front and behind them to mask their signature while when perpendicular to the disk there is very, very little material to hide their signatures (kind of like the difference between how well radar works on something flying at very low level with the ground clutter vs something at 30,000 feet on a cloudless day). I think something like that would adequately address why we only ever see ships enter solar systems at the edge of the material disk and never coming in perpendicular to the disc rotation when it comes to military action, trade, or exploration, while also allowing for science/research vessels or any other vessels being able to travel this way when needed.
Question : What if the Taelons from Earth: Final Conflict came to Star Trek's version of Earth during the Federation's golden age? Keeping in mind that their interdimensional travel technology is far more advanced than Federation warp drives and transporters, came from another galaxy entirely, that they had access to time travel technology but chose not to use it, but were physically vulnerable to the energy based weapons used in Star Trek. Assuming that their motivation was the same, and likewise aimed to manipulate Earth through benevolence, how much things play out? And how would the other alpha quadrant powers react to this new player giving the federation a significant technological boost even if much of their technology was still restricted?
If you binge watch every episode of DS9 its a pretty good series overall... but back in the early 1990s when it originally aired and you were getting 20-25 episodes per season spread out over 10 months it was almost getting painful to watch as the series plodded along slowly. The Klingon war really helped the series out and made it much more interesting to watch - it still never really recovered in the ratings: The Klingon war helped it hold most of the regular viewers it had, but the loyal Trek viewers that gave up on it after the first 2 seasons never really came back.
I think its probable their was changlings on Cardassia. This was right after the cardassian/romulan fleet was defeated in the gamma quadrant. It makes sense that the first thing the founders would do is go infiltrate Cardassia.
One issue that comes to mind is that the leadership of Klingons at that time was almost always looking for a good fight, let’s say for example the wormhole was never found yet a rebellion did overthrow the Cardassian government, I bet many bars of gold press Latium that they would of claim Romulans help them and attack anyway
This action drove them toward an alliance with the Dominion. Interesting though how easily the Klingons defeated the Cardassians in contrast to the Federation/Cardassian war prior, where the Federation had to make some serious concessions just to achieve peace.
Gowron wanted to destroy the Dominion but he also saw the Federation as weak and wanted to conquer them too, invading Cardassia was also a way to increase the Empires size.
It's also worth remembering that Gowron had a sort of a stain on his Chancellorship back home, in that we was "picked" by the humans. This would give him the ability wash the stain away with Cardassian blood. Once he engaged, he was never disengaging.
The biggest mistakes weren't the Klingon conquest of the Cardassians, but the constant Federation betrayals, giving away invasion plans, supporting rebellions. Once it was decided, there was no saving Cardassia, so the best option would have been to tacitly support it, and then, once the Dominion issue is dealt with, support rebellions in order to weaken the Klingons.
It would have been too late by then. The Klingons would occupy all of Klingon, Cardassian and Dominion space, and squish the Federation at the first sign they were supporting any sort of rebellion. And that's the best case scenario.
The first question is easy to answer: Was Gowron right? Morally, no. Starting a war on a sovereign nation is wrong. Plain and simple. But there is another question that should be asked with the benefit of hindsight: Would the Alpha Quadrant have been better off if the Federation had stayed neutral in the Klingon-Cardassian War? It's pretty reasonable to assume, that the Klingons would've crushed the Cardassians. They would've probably captured the Detapa-Council right there and then and it's not unlikely to assume that they would've capitulated in some way, shape or form. And then what? No war between the Federation and the Klingons. No losses of life and equipment. No Cardassia to invite the Dominion into the Alpha-Quadrant. At some point the Dominion might've attacked through the wormhole outright, in order to secure Bajor and DS9 as a beachhead. The Federation would've probably fortified that position. If they could hold it, all would be fine. Sooner or later they would put up those self-replicating mines at the wormhol-exit and there would've been nothing the Dominion could do about it - and if not, bottle-necking them through the wormhole would've still been the best course of action. But if they had taken DS9, it's not unlikely that Dukat would've negotiated with the Dominion to rid Cardassia of the Klingon occupation and we would've been in the same situation as before. So, ultimately, nothing changes.
I take issue with your first axiomatic statement, "Morally, no. Starting a war on a sovereign nation is wrong. Plain and simple." such a statement makes the assumption that 1.) the morality of the action is universally inherent to any moral person, 2.) That such morality is to be applied universally among all sentient creatures, and 3.) That the morality of the statement is so obvious that it needs no explanation. So the question is, why is starting a war on a sovereign nation wrong in your moral view, and more importantly, why should I and others like myself ought to follow your moral view?
@@eva-xv1bi Exactly. War IS part of the Klingon ethos. Growing old and fat while your empire stagnates and is eventually conquered by your enemies(or allies) is immoral to a Klingon. Even in our own world it's never been immoral to attack a sorvreign nation. It happens routinely either through force or arms or economic sanctions. They're both attacks.
You changed the outcome of a major event that effected the Alpha Quadrant and yet, you said that nothing changes? Here's a question that you should ask yourself. How is it possible for Dukat to negotiate Cardassia joining the Dominion if he died when the Detapa Council members were captured?
Is it immoral to start a war on sovereign nation for the reason of responding to the plea for help from the citizens to stop the government from torturing them? If so, why?
Yes the Klingons where justified It’s doubtful the Depta council would have held on to power long. Weyoun mentioned that when the Dominium arrived on Cardassia that a famine was under way. In the TNG episode where Picard was tortured by the Cardassian Gul he stayed that it was the military that ended the famines and hunger when it seized power. I doubt Central Command would have allowed the council stay in charge if the situation worsened With Cardassia under Klingon control. The Dominion would not have been able to gain a large foot hold in the alpha quadrant so easily. Unless the Marquis signed an alliance with them. The Klingons more then likely would have allowed the Federation and Starfleet to ship aid and food to an occupied Cardassia especially if the UFP had supported its Ally in the invasion The Changling threat was still there of course but Section 31 was already on the job. (Though illegally, immorally and evilly). Cardsssia would have been more staple and fed under the Klingons and eventually threw diplomatic means the UFP could have conned the Klingons into going home. The nearly endless supplies and technical ability of the UFP which helped Bajor recover so quickly could have gotten Cardassia back on its feet as well But that doesn’t make for good tv 😂🤣
The klingons could just fortify and militarise in advance to prepare, as well as set up security measures. Wait until the Dominion is revealed, and attack without mercy.
Not exactly on topic, but a question that always bugged me. Why did the Dominion never utilize cloaking technology? It was there for the taking and I can't help but feel that cloaks for their fleets or a better means of pinpointing cloaked Romulan and Klingon vessels would have been an advantage worth having.
I think there's a certain pragmatic reality that can force one into a box. Its been a while since I watched the series and my own thinking could be a bit idealistic. I imagine theoretically the Federation could propose some sort of compromise where the government leaders of the various powers got together to establish that they are not Founder agents, to prove to each other and themselves. Some latitude could be extended to the Cardassians that they could request attendance of individuals they have particular concern about among the asking parties. But with the condition that if the Cardassians didn't agree to the compromise, while within their right to do so, other powers would be forced to conclude Dominion infiltration and act accordingly. So one could take the stance that other powers could say you're not wrong to deny us what we want as it is an infringement of your sovereignty, but circumstances demand we adopt a certain posture in lieu of compliance. Its actually not terribly unlike demands for WMD inspectors being forced upon a country.
I feel that Gowron was a lot more complicated and smarter than he was portrayed. He saw things happening before most. He acted accordingly in most situations. He just fell on hubris. He didn't start as a villain, nor was he when he died. He got lost in his own fears and felt he was the only one to save the galaxy. Evil? No. Bad? Not really. I wonder what kind of trauma set him down this path. Worf had Kitomer and his honor that drove him. Martok had his idea of family. Just interesting.
Gowron was full of hubris and paranoia two deadly combinations. I like Gowron's arc is more tragic than villainous. He isn't evil. He honestly believes he is doing the right thing. That makes for some of the best antagonists. Ones who truly believe they are doing the right and just thing.
Yes! A bit harshly handled but totally justified. It was way too much of a mood swing for Cardassia and Dukat was never to be trusted. As for the Dominion, of course the Cadis can choose them if they wish. Our choices have consequences though. Like how the Germans democratically elected Hitler, that choice had rather dire consequences for all of Europe and required foreign intervention to set it right. Lore don’t shill for Kurtzman, any BS nonsense you can find in Legacy pails compared to the literal “Time Traveling, Red Angel, Space Jesus”.
ouch... Hitler was NEVER elected in a free election. Infact, I'd compare this much more to the early 20s when, yes, Germany has become a republic but in the face of different attepmts of coup d'etat (including Hitlers) used the remaining old imperial military leaders to command their troops in self-defense... until they even made the most famous one their president WHO THEN (years later and against his own preference) declared Hitler to chancellor. The rest is history
@@Liopleurodon define free, most nations do not have truly free elections. That and don’t underestimate the simple seduction of “bread and work”. My point is a democracy can produce a monster too. In many ways the dictator is at least honest.
Martok is a changeling in that episode but u don't know it yet. DS9 is so freaking awesome there will never be anything star trek that good again. I like that line where dukat is like "I find this offensive dr." And Bashir says "your offensive" that and jadzia wins her bet dukat would complain instead of thank them. They should of replaced the decapa council with surgically altered sec 31 humans
Honestly I just realized but I honestly think if not for the federation Romulans and cardasians I do think the klingons could have easily taken over the alpha quadrant. But I also think this speaks to how hypocritical the klingons might be as they claim they value honnor above anything else but they can be just as unhonnorable as roumulans and cardasians and even fergini and the dominion. Notice I left out the federation mostly because humans even though they are capable of fighting don't want to conquer anyone out of all the super powers the federation/ humans are the ones who have the most optimism in the galaxy. It's as if earth and the federation has gotten rid of all their problems but every other super power still has a lot of distust and fear in them and still cling to quite frankly outdated ideas.
I'm not sure if this is true, but I thought the twist was that gowron was actually supposed to be the changeling, but before the next season they changed their mind. Meaning the Martok passing the test was true, but reconned by the behind scene change the next season. Personally though, the big thing in whether or not, despite there being a changling influencing the events. Would invading or not invading actually of prevented Cardassia from joining the Dominion? Because we know that invading did end in that result, but Cardassia may of joined the Dominion's side even if they weren't being invaded. In that case: The invasion was fully justified with that consideration, and the Federation and Klingons could of knocked Cardassia out of the game and than proceeded to block up the wormhole. Now if Cardassia wasn't going to join the Dominion, as long as Changlings weren't involved. Than it would of been unjustified, but like was mentioned in the video, how can you prove it? Are they going to let you test their leadership? Maybe the Changling is not in the upper leadership, but some more lowkey but influential role. Worst yet, their denial of being changlings and refusal to test will more than likely just prove their guilt in the eyes of the klingons and Federation. I think the Federation should of convinced the Klingons of another option: Mine the Wormhole instead of invading Cardassia. Jointly defend the Minefield and prevent the Dominion from even entering the Alpha/Beta quads. Not only would that of solved the Dominion problem, by just simply kicking them out of the situation. It would also show if Cardassia is truly being run by Changlings, because who in their right minds wouldn't want the only way for the Dominion forces to enter blockaded. Other than the Dominion and their agents? And if Cardassia attempted to destroy the minefield, thats open grounds for war and than the invasion would of been a join matter between the Klingons and Federation. Im not even sure why the Federation/Klingons even let the Dominion out of the wormhole in the first place. Baring their concerns of not being ready to stop them. They already have been attacked by the dominion and a whole Galaxy class ship was destroyed by the dominion. Id already consider the Federation and Dominion at war. And with the Nebula incident, the Romulions and Cardassians are pretty much already at war with them. I don't see any major faction who would disagree to keeping their mutual enemy contained in their own quad. Even without their approval, the Federation should of gotten Bajors approval to Mine the wormhole and only provide a narrow access corridor for single ships with every ship being stopped and checked for Changlings. The obvious answer is "Because the writers" and I mean, that would of been a boring but effective solution to end the series more important plot line with little effort. But id personally of went for blocking off the wormhole as soon as possible, atleast to the dominion on the grounds of them attacking federation ships with little cause.
I guess we all assume that Gul Dukat sought out the dominion to join. But maybe, he was captured in the gamma quadrant by the dominion and forced to do so?
Unlikely, he needed a Way to kick out the Klingon Occupants and get the Cardi Empire back its Feet, the Dominion was the only Faction willing to make that happen
No, and here's why. That invasion of Cardassia to prevent them from becoming an Ally of the Dominion, made them an ally of the Dominion and put a wedge between two major powers opposing the Dominion all in one fell swoop. For the Dominion, it was win, win, win.
Unfortunately the Gowron situation there is would never settle with the man looking good. We already labeled the whole situation a cold war. And like the Cold War of Earth the Dominion had absolute control of information coming from their side, infiltrators in place with our governments and infiltrators if not just sympathizers among our media. If they were allowed choice, our own would silently celebrate their passing into the Dominion, if we challenged them, our own would condemn us, if we tried to bribe or influence them our own would make a big fuss about it. And it wouldn't be until long after the Dominion failed that our own would finally admit that "yeah maybe the Dominion wasn't good guys and guilty of genocide, but we're just so much worse".
Gowron and the Empire ultimately felt they had been at peace too long. Apart from their own civil war, there had been no significant conflict or expansionism for decades. Gowron probably felt as Chancellor he needed a significant victory to make his rule legendary and derail any potential challengers within the Empire. Strangely why he didn't make a case to attack the Dominion directly and set himself up as the saviour of the Alpha Quadrant is bizarre however the Federation still wished to avoid war at all costs and wouldn't have supported this either.
Alpha Quadrant was a multi-national system in a stalemate. The Dominion would have found someone willing to change that with enough time. Without klingon warmongering, which forced the cardassians into the dom., it would have been the romulans or even the klingons itself. Willing to split the alpha quadrant between themself and the Dom. to overcome the stalemate. Gowrons action only made it quick, giving the alpha quadrant powers less time to prepare for war. Which the fed already did since the odyssey incident. Also: With a civil leadership, cardassia would have worked closer with the Fed and with some time maybe even join. That would have solved a ton of issues (maquis, bajor etc.) and would have tipped the balance of power in the alpha quad.. especially with a modernized, battle-ready starfleet. Gowron did not want a mighty federation and acted fast, since time was against the klingons. The longer he waited, the more capable would the cardassians become, the closer they would stand with the fed and the mightier starfleet would be.
I'll be honest the smarter option would of been to back the Klingons... I mean as much as the events of Homefront hadn't happened yet the offensive wasn't going to be stopped they could of sent the warning and joined the fleet to Cardassia. They knew Odo was no where near the level of other Changeling so there is definitely a reason to suspect not just the Cardassian changes but the Klingons as well. That's why it would of been better to back the Klingon objective and take control of Cardassian territory to secure the alpha quadrant from Dominion infiltration. It seems a little paranoid but it was the only hope the Alpha Quadrant had. The only downside would be the Romulans which would probably feel a bit surrounded... Though through diplomatic channels they would be invited to join in the effort to reinforce the Quadrant and prepare for what was inevitably coming.
I think the civi coup was a natural event after the Obsidian order fell apart with all those losses from the attack on the assumed changling home world and the utter disgrace it put on the Order and the Tal'shiar those two groups were effectively put out of the game. The coup presented a chance for the infiltrators to pit the Klingons and feddies at each other which they exploited quite well and we never really got to see the whole range of plots the infiltrator had cooking or what other machinations were used to guide Gowron down that path. After all Gowron was Klingon and wanted battle, honor and the respect of all those around him which are all things you can use to blind someone then trick them into a mess. After Gowron would have looked very weak after launching an invasion only to end it gaining nothing for the Empire which would have spurred his rivals to take a shot at him. His choice to continue the war was as much about him as it was about preventing a potential civil war ...again. So the Klingon Empire continuing the invasion makes sense within the context of events and character of the players in the event. Really did well to show the Dominion as more than a military threat but also a subversive one which seemed to have been forgotten once the war was on. After all spy games don't stop once you are at war.
I mean, it's ok to wave small plot conveniences as long as the story makes sense and more importantly, compelling. Most of Kirtzman Trek, with the exception of Strange New Worlds, has had full big logical leaps while being uncompelling.
@@LoreReloaded I agree, I mean it's amazing to me that OS Trek even had good, even great, episodes that hold up today. Butttt it was the 60's-90's television and not every or even half, the writers are Sci-Fi geniuses. Serialized television just opens up more possibilities. Discovery/ Picard never had a good, full season plot that was compelling all the way through, and as a full story it's open to that criticism to the entire series. As a serial, you can judge individual episodes and skip the ones written by "Intern writers of the week." For instance, my friend is showing his girlfriend, both under 27, all of DS9. They skip the Rumpelstiltskin episode and carry on with the wonderful series. You can't do that with Kurtzman style Trek, again, except Strange New Worlds which I am a big fan.
He was lied too. "Mardok" told him the C.U. was under the control of the Founders. An Gowron being Gowron took the bait an went to war. Glory to the Empire!
Gowrons eyes justify everything...
I loved Robert O'Reilly for his bombastic actions and his facial expressions. Just imagine how over the top he would've looked if he _didn't_ have all that Klingon makeup?
Like the moving feet of centipedes.
😂😅🤣🖖
Gowron makes randy Savage seem like a chill dude
With eyes like that he can have whatever he wants. I ain't F-ing with eyes that unhinged.
I love that people are still talking about this show almost 30 years after it was on TV. That's how you know DS9 was such a great show.
Indeed.
True
We're still talking about TOS. More than 50 years later.
No one will talk about Picard. People refuse to now. The people who celebrate Nu-Trek never understood Star Trek. They really are sick in the head. They are tied to a Brand name and not the Spirt of the Characters, World, Stories, and Morals it made to pass on. Shame on them while they speak of Nu-Trek which is a caricature of Star Trek.
When Gowron would speak of honor and glory, he always emphasized the word glory, and that’s the leader he became, seeking glory over all other considerations.
This is why allying with klingons is foolish. They are looking for an excuse to fight.
The last question brought to mind something Odo said to Kira in season 3, that "Giving people freedom of choice also means they're free to make the wrong one".
If Dukat was less of a massive egotist, it's possible that he could have made a case to the Cardassian people that joining the Dominion was in their best interest and been convincing enough that they would vote for it... instead of what he actually does, which is unilaterally take Cardassia into the Dominion and then present his case after it's too late to stop him.
Yeah. "Do they have the right to choose the Dominion if they wanted to?" wasn't really a good question. They're a sovereign nation, of course they have the right to ally with whoever they feel like.
But that doesn't mean the Klingons and Federation have to just accept that they now have the ally of a threatening major power sitting on their doorstep. Taking into consideration who an agreement like that will piss off is part of a government's job, so if the Detapa Council didn't bother doing their homework, that's on them.
The fact that the switch was done in a really shady way gives the Klingons and Federation all the moral standing they could want to invade. After all, the Cardassian-Dominion alliance was set up suddenly, in secret, and greatly benefits the major power who has a demonstrated track record of infiltrating and subverting other governments. There's _no way_ that wouldn't look suspiciously like the Detapa Council had been infiltrated.
@@tba113 Yeah, but that's not what happened. The Detapa Council were, as far as Starfleet could tell, genuinely what they appeared to be. The Klingons sort of have a point, at least as far as the fact that if the Dominion hadn't destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian population would not have been able to rise up and demand that the military give the Detapa Council the power they were supposed to have had in the first place (Dukat told Sisko in season 3 that "In theory, they [the Obsidian Order] answer to the Detapa Council, just as the military do. In practice, we both run our own affairs" ).
The Klingons invade Cardassia at the start of season 4, but Dukat doesn't bring Cardassia into the Dominion until the middle of season 5; over a year later
freedom of choije comes with pros and gains , people have the right to make mistakes within the law
It's important to also take notice that all these events mentioned in this video practically Force the Cardassian People into making the worst possible scenario that affects everyone in the alpha quadrant. They align themselves with the Dominion which gives them a foothold to wage war with both the federation Klingons and romulans. Everything is practically a domino effect that led to a greater effect that cost millions of lives.
Its like that one O'brian changeling on Earth told SIsko during Paradise Lost. "In the end, its your fear that will destroy you."
@@Nostripe361
Ironically it was the changeling fear that almost destroyed them, but for good natured solids.
*Sisko:* You know, the Klingons are probably right. The Dominion knew that the Obsidian Order were walking into a trap and would be well placed to exploit the opportunity. I say we sit back and let them have it out with the Cardassians.
Anyway any government that would have Gul Dukat in it can't be good.
*Kira:* You had me with that last point.
*Sisko:* The question we face now is… do we aide the Klingons due to the Kitimar accords?
*O'Brien:* I say we give the Klingons the same level of help that they gave us during the Border Wars.
*Kira:* I don't know what the truth really is, all I know is that "pro Klingon" banners are about to be hung all over Bajor. If I understand Human culture correctly, I'm supposed to replicate popcorn now?
I honestly think you can't blame the Klingons for not helping the Federation during the Border Wars. I also wouldn't help someone with a war they themselves won't even commit to actually fighting. The Federation alone was decades ahead of the Cardassians technologically, it had more manpower and material too, but it still allowed the Cardassians to kick its ass and strongarm it into forfeiting territory because it was governed by a bunch of pussies. Did you know that not even a single Galaxy class was committed to the frontlines? They fought this war exclusively with outdated ships not suited for war because their capable warships were off cartographing nebula or whatever the fuck. Which by the way is a huge waste of manpower and material. It's simply properly Klingon to be disgusted or at best bemused by such spinelessness, and it is also perfectly rational to not commit to fighting your ally's war for them if they themselves blatantly demonstrate that they aren't even committed to fighting it themselves.
@@tarvoc746
Help yourself, for I shall help you
Yes, Major Kira, time to actually pop some popcorn.
@@tarvoc746 The thing is, the Galaxy and Ambassadors are difficult ships to build in bulk. In the 2350s, the Galaxy-class was blueprints and even if actually built, only 6 ships were made at the time of TNG. Why? Because building the most advanced technology known to the Alpha quadrant at the time requires a lot of advanced resources and technical knowledge. Since war is also about building in bulk, the Federation still had to rely on overworked, underpowered vessels to cover all the space necessary and they just don't have enough ships, hence "we're the only ship in range."
It's also important to note that the Federation ALSO had border wars with Tzenkethi, the Talarians, and probably the Shelliak. Thus, Starfleet is consistently stretched thin. We can infer why this peaceful, exploratory civilization seemed to be at war and it wasn't because all these other races liked fighting for its own sake. I would say it's the Federation's incredibly careless colonization program where a group of civilians can set up a colony using whatever form of government they like. It happened so often the TNG crew were often surprised to run into a colony they didn't know existed for years. Well, for the Cardassians, they suddenly got neighbors on planets they thought they were going to colonize first. The Feds, being constantly overstretched, simply did not have the ships and resources necessary to cover these colonies, which necessitated the bizarre treaties we see in the show where the Feds just give up lots of planets based on Sykes-Picot lines.
My question is: If Martok is a changeling at the start of Way of the Warrior and passes the blood check, when they later find out he was a changeling why do they continue to use blood checks if Martok was able to fake it?
Because its all they have.
He connduct test them self. If somone catch him off gaurd then test will show he is changeling. Every test can be cheated but first you have to know there will be that test.
@@tophatminion.7558 You should be able to cut off some hair from ones head or body hair
I'd take a test that is right sometimes than not test at all.
Because Martok wasn't a changeling until after the initial invasion.
Whether or not it was actually justified it was 100% justified within the mind of Gawron.
You misspelled his name. Its Crazyeyes.
@@charleskinsey2077 with eyes like that he can justify anything 😁
Klingon "I want to fight something."
Kid's ball lands in his yard.
Klingon "You've started a war."
War against the Cardassians is always justified just to get them to SHUT UP. God they almost talk more than Morn.
😂😂😂😂
Don't exaggerate. Nobody almost talks more than Mourn. The guy never stops.
Actually, Morn did stopped talking during that time when everyone mourned for Morn, thinking that he was dead.
If words were water, Morn would drown us all.
Justified according to whom?
The Klingon empire had been at peace for too long... why would a warrior culture need any more reason to wage war?
I would assume according to the viewers at home.
Since the Klingons only really need enough justification to keep the Federation from bothering them about it. And the Federation uses war as the absolute last resort even when the Dominion was funneling their military into Cardassia.
And I say “even when” because it wasn’t the Federation who declared war. it was Sisko.
Yes, he was justified 100% in the Cardassian invasion because he knew that would be a good reason for Michael Dorn to star in DS9, and the show would have some good battle scenes.
See? Gowron thinks ahead! 🤣💪👍
Yep, that's why Gowron was so happy to see Worf on DS9. 🤣
Gowron did nothing wrong.
I'm reminded of this line.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
-- Jean-Luc Picard, Captain, USS Enterprise. "TNG: The Drumhead"
Attacking the Cardassians only weakened them further, to the point of desperation. It drove them right into the arms of the Dominion. Dukat undoubtedly saw joining the Dominion as the only way to make Cardassia -great- strong again, and at that point the Cardassians were desperate enough not to question him or his advice. Either way, it makes no sense: fighting amongst each other is _not_ the way to defeat a common enemy. The Founders were able to exploit this weakness - a lack of unity in the Alpha Quadrant - for a long time.
Plus be had become a folk hero by fighting the Klingon invaders, which only garnered him more support
We don’t know that Cardassia would have joined the dominion anyway.
It was not a question of making Cardassia strong again, rather simply assuring it's survival at that point.
It wasn't an invasion it was a "Special Operation" :P
If the Federation (or at least Starfleet) wanted to ascertain whether the civilian leadership were changelings or not, the ideal solution would have been to insert intelligence operatives and gain samples surreptitiously. The extermination and collapse of the Obsidian Order (the Cardassian intelligence service) opened the way for other powers to begin successful infiltration of Cardassia. For all the guff they get, Section 31 would have been ideal for this, and could (probably) have gained the information without causing a massive incident (granted, if they discovered that they *were* changelings, Section 31 is also likely to blow up the building housing the Detapa Council while it is in session). Unfortunately, the Klingon version of "investigation" was to invade the Cardassian Empire, conquer the entire country, and execute the leaders to see if they collapse into a puddle of ooze. While the smart move would be to ask the Federation to investigate, while coordinating with Starfleet to prepare for a thorough invasion as an insurance policy, the Martok-Changeling had a self-serving politician he could convince to invade to make the High Council happy with him.
The meeting with "Martok" always struck me as a little weird. "Martok" accused Starfleet of betrayal for refusing to assist the invasion, but the Klingons were doing everything they could to keep the Federation in the dark about their intentions. Had they been successful, the Klingons would have up and surged into Cardassian space with virtually no warning whatsoever - the way they kept their fleet cloaking and decloaking to hide their numbers, most of the ships could have crossed the border and begun hitting targets before the DS9 crew knew any of the vessels had departed. It has long bothered me that Sisko didn't call "Martok" out on his B.S. about the Federation not helping, since it is obvious that they never wanted the Federation involved at all. A major war like that would require the repositioning of ships and troops, as well as arranging the logistics to support them. This is not something they could snap their fingers and accomplish. It would likely take months for Starfleet to switch gears like that, especially as I would expect them to be prepared for a defense-in-depth to absorb any Dominion offensive coming out of the wormhole, stall it out, and them push it back, rather than risk having a large fleet right near the wormhole where it could be overwhelmed by surprise and a lack of intelligence as to the numbers of the enemy forces. The only explanation that comes to mind is that, being a mere Captain, Sisko simply did not think is such wide strategic terms yet, and was just addressing the problem in front of him, rather than the larger implications.
One of my favorite elements of this is that Gowron was never taken over by a changeling. His thirst for conquest was entirely his own, even if he was deftly manipulated Changelings. A great signal of the general complicity of the Klingons in the ensuing bloodbath.
I liked this Breakdown of the Cardassian government and conversion of that government. I wish that was explored more but I always paid way more attention to the Klingon invasion rather than the Cardassian politics of season 4-5 of Deep Space Nine. I wish that we saw more of the new Cardassian politics in DS9 between season 4-5 before joining the Dominion.
Gowron's invasion was the catalyst for Dukat taking over the government and joining the Dominion.
What would be an interesting thought is how would things have been different if Duras had been the leader of the Klingon empire instead of Gowron.
Probably have been a Fed/ Klingon war that would have seriously wrecked both and put the Romulans in the Alpha.Beta quadrant driver's seat. The Dominion would probably have been discovered much later if at all.
The Romulan Klingon Friendship Asociation (totaly not a Tal Shiar Front) liked your comment.
intresting. i think there are also factors beyond Gowron's control which pushed him. the question of legitimacy for one; he basically becomes chancellor by default, his only real opposition were a boy and two infamous sisters. so after a while people were probably wanting him to prove his credentials.
Second is the Nostalgia for the Sovi... i mean 23rd century empire which was a absoloute military machine. so there was probably a desire to recapture that spirit. its why they attacked in the way they did; how they would have in the 23rd century.
But your forgetting that, Sta...I mean Gowron, rewrote history putting him in the light more than what actually happened.
There's another factor at play regarding Gowron's legitimacy: the Arbiter of Succession overseeing his selection as Chancellor was Picard... an outsider. Although both K'mpec may have chosen him believing him to be more trustworthy and he might have agreed on the same basis, that's not how it'd play out in the political arena. It did nothing to avert the civil war and quite likely the fact that an outsider served as Arbiter was used to question his legitimacy. Support for the Duras faction only collapsed when it was shown that he was backed by a more hated outsider in the Romulans, but this wouldn't have removed the questions of legitimacy surrounding Gowron. Gowron and his backers likely wanted to show that they weren't Federation patsies.
Incidentally, this is precisely why the Prime Directive exists. It's not there to condone genocide, but to avoid situations like the Klingon Civil War. Picard getting involved at best did nothing to avert the war and at worst fanned the flames. And Starfleet's later lack of involvement in the fighting under the guise of the Prime Directive was really bad optics. The Federation is willing to get involved in the internal affairs of others at the highest levels... but they'll conveniently cite the good old PD if it involves putting themselves at risk. They'll choose the Klingon leader but avoid the ensuing fighting, which given what we learned from "Yesterday's Enterprise" was a grievous insult to the Klingons.
Nostalgia for the 23rd century was definitely a factor as many of Kirk's contemporaries were still around and had influence. Had the Federation continued to show the military prowess that had ultimately prevailed in the cold war with the Klingons, it might have been an acceptable state of affairs for the Klingons. The sacrifice of Enterprise-C at Narendra III showed the Klingons that there was plenty of warrior spirit in humans, that underneath the honeyed words lies the savage beast that Quark (and Kirk) spoke of. Those humans were a people worth allying with.
But the Galen Border Conflict, the Federation-Cardassian War, the Tzinkethi War, the non-involvement in the Klingon Civil War all showed that the Federation was so afraid of getting a bloody nose that they'd try to avoid conflict even when they had an decisive technological and material edge. However, the Talarians and Cardassians (we don't know about the Tzinkethi) committed acts of terrorism that drew the Federation into a war anyways. And despite fighting three recent wars, parts of Starfleet still insisted they weren't a military. Where did the fighting spirit of humans go? Why continue to ally with a people who display such weakness, who continue to avoid a war with the Dominion when it was clear that the only choices were war or submission?
Space mines move. Episode ‘Call to Arms’ has O’Brien, Dax and Rom discussing mining the wormhole. The mines designed are programmed to ‘Swarm Detonate’. These mines detect ships and they fly towards them. You’d also concentrate mines along the likeliest paths in and out of a system as intra system warp is considered dangerous (By Inferno’s Light).
He was. The changelings were everywhere. The cardassians were never trust worthy. If he hadn't attacked the Cardassians, there would have been that many more ships to fight later on.
The main person who wanted the war was general martok who in reality was a changeling, if the war never happened cardassia would never have been so desperate for help that theyd join the dominion, the dominion wanted the war
Or the Cardassians wouldn't have become desperate enough to join the Dominion in the first place.
The only help needed from the Dominion to overthrow the Cardassian military government was the destruction of the Obsidian Order. No founders needed. Therefor, Gowron's attack was not justified.
First. Maybe.
Also, yes he was. The Founders showed themselves frighteningly adept at destabilizing powerful regimes that have stood for hundreds of years.
For all Gowron knew, the High Council was next, if it hadn’t been infiltrated already.
The massive civilian casualties are hard to justify, but the motive is understandable.
Never understood why the obsidian order was literally destroyed by the omicron nebula incident; they literally pulled ALL its agents and staff from ALL its operations across the cardassian empire and in other worlds for this one operation?? If the TalShiar survived the incident in terms of staff, it stands to reason that an organisation like the Order with a rival reputation would've had the sense not to put all its eggs in one nest.
Has anybody ever considered that the dominion might be betting on two horses? One being the klingon empire and the cardassians being a second option?
I indirectly touch on that at the end
Gowron's justification is the exact justification Putin gives....spooky.
“Mining space” being a silly idea doesn’t make Kurtzmen trek look any better comparatively.
Facts. Video downvoted just for that line.
I guess we'll never know for sure unless there is some canon confirmation of a few of the grey areas. Following the failed Cardassian/Romulan attack on the Founders, the female Changeling vowed to wipe out the Cardassians. To that end it would make sense for them to manipulate someone else into doing just that and it looks like that happened with it being a fairly safe bet Martok had already been replaced (although I don't recall that ever being 100% confirmed the Martok in Way of the Warrior was a Changeling yet). To that end it would also make sense to destabilise Cardassia and to the Dominion replacing military led fascism with a democratic civilian government would lead to chaos and a weaker state.
However the parts of this that don't make sense is that we don't see anything like this happening against the Romulans. No invasions, no overthrow of government. Maybe the Dominion wanted to focus on Cardassia first? Doesn't seem to fit their pattern. Also why do they then ally themselves with Cardassia? They must be aware of their already weakened state and dubious merits as a military ally. Maybe their game plan all along is simply to use the Cardassian Union as a foothold in the Alpha quadrant? It's proximity to the wormhole make it a good location. Weakening them via the Klingons makes them more willing to accept their help with slowly turns into an occupation. It is interesting that the Dominion also courts the Romulans as potential allies too. Had they done that and won the war would would female Changeling theat have been carried out after the defeat of the Klingons and Federation?
Gone off topic away from the original question here but in short, no Gowron is not right in what he did. With the Dominion threat it was foolish to waste military resources in a petty war. Better to prepare and consolidate his own empire against the real threat.
Gowron knows that the old ways are the best ways
Great vid LR!
I don't think this is a 1:1 Comparison to the events of today that you may, or may not be alluding to, but Gowron's actions do seem to be similar to other individuals' actions.
Could you be a little more specific? To paraphrase Odo: "you go to such lengths to hide the true meaning of your words - you end up saying nothing".
@@Mia199603 Sorry, it was intentionally vague as it pertains to a comment @Lorereloaded said on Twitter about the video.
Basically it was a comparison to the Ukrain/Russia conflict that is currently going on and their respective leaders.
@@VileMike ah I don't use Twitter and not going to start so ig I'll stay in the dark 😑
@@Mia199603 Well, if you ever do decide to join the mess that is Twitter, you can see the crap Lore and I give each other, lol.
Gowron, "i attacked because of nato's aggression against the klingon empire."........
I think ego has more to do with distorting the facts enough to justify such unwarranted aggression. You should have hard proof before committing forces to battle. Gowron has plenty of the former and none of the latter.
Honestly even as a kid I thought gowron was right the Klingon Empire would have stabilized the region and kept it that much safer with federation support
UFP wouldn't have supported a long term occupation of the Cardassians. Klingons don't stablize anything, they are always looking for the next war.
Yes - The Cardasians were on The Side of The Founders.
No - They had no real facts to justify it.
Respect and keep up the epic work.
I'm not sure if the Cardassians at that point of time were on the side of the Founders, or if the Founders staged the Klingon Invasion to drive the Cardassians towards their side. Or if they pulled a Palpatine and were manipulating both sides.
@@farantir I think they were but i have to say it's kinda guess work.
I’ve always interpreted the episode to mean the cardassians were legit.. quite possible they weren’t though
@@farantir Given that Martok turned out to be a Changeling, it seems extremely likely that the Klingon invasion of Cardassia was part of their plan. Similarly, they planted the fake information into Odo that _Gowron_ was the Changeling, hoping to subsequently damage Federation-Klingon relations even further. I don't know if the Founders foresaw that Cardassia would want to join the Dominion, or even had an active part in it. I always interpreted it as a (for them) fortunate happenstance, made possible by Dukat's ego.
@@LoreReloaded Yeah, they do a blood screening on the Cardassian Civilian Gouvernment, indicating that they are legit, but maybe the Founders infiltrated Central Command and gave the Dissident Movement the Opportunity for victory. Thats never really answered, but its a possibility.
It was the changeling Martok who convince Gowron to invade Cardassian prompting Gul Dukat to form a alliance with the changelings
Lore's point is that no matter that Martok was a Changeling, it was Gowron's nature to do what he did. Changeling Martok just gave him the caesus belli.
"It's set in the future during a time of a war between the klingon empire and cardassia"
"Who wins?"
*"Who do you think?"*
"Meditations on a Crimson Shadow", a Cardassian enigma tale. And it was the Federation, not the Klingons.
@@NuclearFridge1 no, it was cardassia and the klingon empire, same as how it happens later in the series
Justification is a difficult distinction to make when dealing with cultures and governments within the same species and nearly impossible with different species. The Klingons as a culture seem to lean towards fierce territoriality which is likely influenced by their invasion by the Hurk and other early alien encounters. They also tend to be suspicious, which was likely heightened by the recent defeat of the combined Tal’Shiar and Obsidian Order fleets.
From what we know canonically about the apparent majority of Humans and Klingons, was it justified in the view of general Human morality- no, was it justified in general Klingon culture and morality- yes. Was it ethical- no.
From the various episodes and movies in which the Klingons appear, they tend to have a highly aggressive stance towards perceived threats while Humans/Starfleet tend to focus on understanding and diplomacy even to their detriment as in Khan’s ambush of the Enterprise, the recently depicted Battle of the Binary Stars, and encounters with phenomena like the Doomsday Machine.
The Klingons were always an allegory for the Soviet Union and Russia following its collapse, and even in the mid 90s Russia had hard line officials who called for securing the ‘buffer zone’ that the Baltic and Central European countries provided and we’re now seeing the tragic repercussions of this continuing defensive doctrine.
You contradicted yourself when you talked about morality and how difficult it is when culture and government are considered into the situation then following that with your answers, "no" for Humans and "yes" for Klingons.
It's an easy answer for you considering the culture and government that you are use to. But have you ever considered what another human outside of your culture and government has to say about it?
@@shawn092182 I was referring to our general information in the context of Star Trek canonical material, when it comes to perceived threats the morals and cultural stance among humans are greatly weighed towards understanding and diplomacy while the Klingons have frequently had a shoot first policy. We see these facts with the reactions to V’ger in The Motion Picture, with how the survivor of the disabled Klingon ship reacted in Enterprise, how the Klingon captain hunts the Enterprise-A even though it threatens the uneasy peace and his own ambassador in Final Frontier, how Chang has the Bird of Prey attack the Chancellor’s ship WHILE HE’S STILL ON IT in Undiscovered Country, when a rare bacteria eats through the hulls of both a Bird of Prey and the Enterprise-D the Klingon captain’s reaction is to assume an attack, when the crew of the Enterprise encounter species like the Borg they often wait until the last minute to go on full alert, in Wrath of Khan the Enterprise doesn’t raise shields until the Reliant raises theirs and is in point blank range of the Enterprise. Sadly, DS9 was the first Star Trek show to work with serialized storytelling so we didn’t get to see races like the Klingons in more a more central role and instead have to gather facts from the various shows and movies in which the Klingon appear.
I think the Klingon's reaction to the Cardassian revolution is what prepared the way for them to join the Dominion down the road.
it occurs to me that although the council weren't changelings, that doesn't necesarily mean the Dominion weren't in some way influencing the Cadassians think about that
I mean, they did destroy the Obsidian Order. The group pretty much responsible for ensuring the compliance of all Cardassians.
Not to mention manipulating the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar into attacking the founders in the first place.
@@Death2all546 true
The Klingon Empire endorses this video.
LOL, I had to rewatch part of the video because I zoned out, totally mesmerized watching Worf just demolish Klingon warrior after warrior in the background. TNG had him jobbing to the threat of the week so often I forgot how much ass he kicked in DS9.
Loved Gowron! His F-U, attitude and crazy eyes were awesome! Hated that he was killed by Worf. I always hoped there would have been some way for Worf to show Gowron that he was not acting with Honor, and somehow help redeem him.
Although having Martok as the new Chancellor was also good. I liked Martok; he was very Honorable.
Should be inserted into the Dominion War Recount a few years ago.
That is how good this video essay was.
First correction, the Cardassian Union before the Battle of the Omarion Nebula always had three bodies in its government. It was just that the Obsidian Order had the most power, then was the Central Command, and finally the token civilian-run Detapa Council. When the Obsidian Order was wiped out in the Battle of the Omarion Nebula the power vacuum allowed the Detapa Council to rally the people against the Central Command. Second correction, the Battle of the Omarion Nebula was a plot by the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. While the Tal Shiar took a hit it was nothing compared to the Obsidian Order which ceased to exist.
The fight between fans of Berman/Roddenberry Trek and fans of Bad Robot(Abrams)/Secret Hideout(Abrams chosen successor's) Trek is over the spirit of the thing, not anything else. For Example, I'd say ST: 2009 was an excellent Star Wars film, as that was its spirit, its feel.
I believe it was kira that made a good point in the episode that the dissident movement had been gaining ground for some time and "with the obsidian order out of the way...." The only Dominion interference was from the martok changeling. While the dominion's destruction of the obsidian order helped, it was not a direct effort to overthrow the entire government.
really my thing is even if the Cardassians where taken over by the Dominion via the Coup The Klingons should have just staged a large fleet permanently at DS9 that would have stop or slowed down any dominion invasion
The dominion only had one way into the Alpha quadrant so it doesn't matter what happens on any planet ships can only come from the worm hole
Never question the Krazy Eyez Killah
I guess the question would be when was Martok replaced? Also just because the Da'tapa council was clear does not mean there had not been a Founder on Cardassia manipulating the the overthrow of the government. I would say it would have been safer for them to remain on Cardassia.
The Klingons heard that the cardassIans found oil
I fail to understand how the battle of the Omarion nebula hurt the cardassia s. That was a fleet of ships the obsidian order wasn’t even supposed to have. Normally central command was in charge of defense of cardassian territory.
Gowron risked losing a potential ally in the case of a war with the Dominion. (After what the Obsidian order pulled, the Cardassians would be unlikely to be buddy buddy with the Dominion for a while.) Worst, he alienated his most important, already existing ally, the Federation, and ultimately ended up pushing the Cardassians into the arms of the dominion. While his war did make sense from a certain perspective, it helped stabilize his position and appeased the more traditionist Klingons within his empire, from a geopolitical... or should i say, astropolitical standpoint, this was a gamble at best, and one that did not pay off. It almost doomed the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
Now, we do not know just how contested his own position was, or what false information the Marthok changeling planted to convince him of Dominion influence in Cardassia, so from his perspective it might have been the logical, or even the only choice. But it does not speak highly of him as a ruler that he let himself get to this point. Even without suspecting Marthok being a Changeling, he should still have questioned the motives of someone just presenting that kind of info (When that someone is a general and not their chief of intelligence), and the validity of those claims. And being unable to keep order in his empire so he would not have to push for a war at the wrong time just to appease some sabre rattlers (Even if you are a Klingon.) is not a good sign either.
In the end, being justified means nothing if you start a war. What matters if you win( In which case you write whatever justification you want in the history books anyway.) or if you lose. (In which case, you will be made out to be the bad guy, no matter what your reasons were.)
I think the proper mover would have been to keep a close eye on the new cardassian government and pursue more diplomatic avenues. At the same time planning out strategies or contingencies for the most likely outcomes, and maybe some unlikely ones. The increased diplomatic efforts could help with keeping on eye on the gov't as well as building some trust that might pay off later if they start moving towards the dominion.
I also feel I should point out if someone has not only the resources but the will to mine that area of space they could probably do it. Or maybe the plan was to use enough mines to make travel to the sector to dangerous to travel or increase travel times to the point of not being practical because of how much a ship would have to divert to avoid them. That is for civilian shipping
Borrowing from Star Wars here but I could see “Warp mines” being a thing. Kinda a mix with that long range torpedo in Voyager. Just a big torpedo that detects when something enters warp nearby and makes a b-line for it, also at warp.
Hyperspace mines work better in the Star Wars universe, but there’s definitely stuff in trek to reason it.
Suspace warp mines are not homing mines but large scale proximity mines that are triggered by a ship's warp field.
Most of the Trek mines are of the captor variety - from a single torpedo encased in a shell on a command relay, on up to shielded 4 shot launchers that replicate their own ammo and have a starship's sensor suite & a primitive AI. One thing that all but the very most expensive have in common - they're not after YOU, they're after your warp field (Only the very expensive minefeids with either sensor towers or the very top end captor mines could even detect the ship it's self - although some of those could see right through a cloaking device)
P.S. I spell no tailgating, "NSM - Nuclear Space Mine - No Tailgating"
@@muninrob I take it all of this info is from beta-canon?
@@baltham0 Is that the term for things like the Star Wars "legends" continuity?
It's from the formerly canon "Star Fleet Battles" board game, not sure if that's currently considered Apha canon, Beta canon, or merely apocrypha today. (Was "hard canon" in it's day, with showrunners freely "borrowing" ships & design rules directly from the game)
@@muninrob yeah, anything that is not prime universe tv and movies is considered alpha canon. It's all detailed in Star Trek's decades running wikia "memory alpha." Everything else, the video games, novels, and table top is considered beta canon which is detailed in the wikia "memory beta."
I always hated that Martok was a shapeshifter early on. I liked the idea that paranoia destabilized the Alpha quadrant unassisted by the Dominion
Gowron's reaction to this entire sordid enterprise was dubious at best.
Another banger, thanks bro for the regular drops, keeps it up beat and happy in this wild expensive times in USa and western world.
The obvious answer is to pay more scrutiny as to what the Romulans are doing. Because they never not take advantage of an opportunity like this..
That bit about the Klingon plan to mine the entire Bajoran sector, along with issues in the show such as Operation Return and other battles seeming to show space as 2 dimensional and easy to block and barricade has me thinking. Trek should have some kind of trek-scifi-science reason that nearly all spaceflight and especially military transportation within or near a solar system seems to be along the plane of a spinning star's equator and the system's material disk. Maybe an idea such as: traveling at warp speed within or very close to a star system at an angle that is perpendicular to the spin (and material disk) of the star is highly problematic at warp and transwarp or even downright dangerous, as going "against the grain" of the system's gravitational spin makes it extremely hard to maintain a stable warp bubble, say allowing only very low warp speed but at greatly increased energy output to maintain even those low warp bubbles, and higher warp speeds and transwarp in such situations becomes energy prohibitive or risks potential damage or destruction of the ship. When it comes to military actions they could also add that even approaching the sector at impulse from perpendicular to the system's gravitational spin makes the ships incredibly easy to detect, even if they are cloaked, because there is no material disk of various matter in front and behind them to mask their signature while when perpendicular to the disk there is very, very little material to hide their signatures (kind of like the difference between how well radar works on something flying at very low level with the ground clutter vs something at 30,000 feet on a cloudless day). I think something like that would adequately address why we only ever see ships enter solar systems at the edge of the material disk and never coming in perpendicular to the disc rotation when it comes to military action, trade, or exploration, while also allowing for science/research vessels or any other vessels being able to travel this way when needed.
Question : What if the Taelons from Earth: Final Conflict came to Star Trek's version of Earth during the Federation's golden age?
Keeping in mind that their interdimensional travel technology is far more advanced than Federation warp drives and transporters, came from another galaxy entirely, that they had access to time travel technology but chose not to use it, but were physically vulnerable to the energy based weapons used in Star Trek.
Assuming that their motivation was the same, and likewise aimed to manipulate Earth through benevolence, how much things play out? And how would the other alpha quadrant powers react to this new player giving the federation a significant technological boost even if much of their technology was still restricted?
I think in the new story, it should be discovered that there are uninflected changelings in the hierarchy of the federation council.
If you binge watch every episode of DS9 its a pretty good series overall... but back in the early 1990s when it originally aired and you were getting 20-25 episodes per season spread out over 10 months it was almost getting painful to watch as the series plodded along slowly.
The Klingon war really helped the series out and made it much more interesting to watch - it still never really recovered in the ratings: The Klingon war helped it hold most of the regular viewers it had, but the loyal Trek viewers that gave up on it after the first 2 seasons never really came back.
I think its probable their was changlings on Cardassia. This was right after the cardassian/romulan fleet was defeated in the gamma quadrant. It makes sense that the first thing the founders would do is go infiltrate Cardassia.
The Klingons didn't know about how weakens Cardassians were by the Obsidian/Tal-shar attack on Founders which decimated both fleets.
One issue that comes to mind is that the leadership of Klingons at that time was almost always looking for a good fight, let’s say for example the wormhole was never found yet a rebellion did overthrow the Cardassian government, I bet many bars of gold press Latium that they would of claim Romulans help them and attack anyway
This action drove them toward an alliance with the Dominion. Interesting though how easily the Klingons defeated the Cardassians in contrast to the Federation/Cardassian war prior, where the Federation had to make some serious concessions just to achieve peace.
Because the Cardassians where still weakened by the previous war.
Gowron wanted to destroy the Dominion but he also saw the Federation as weak and wanted to conquer them too, invading Cardassia was also a way to increase the Empires size.
It's also worth remembering that Gowron had a sort of a stain on his Chancellorship back home, in that we was "picked" by the humans. This would give him the ability wash the stain away with Cardassian blood. Once he engaged, he was never disengaging.
The biggest mistakes weren't the Klingon conquest of the Cardassians, but the constant Federation betrayals, giving away invasion plans, supporting rebellions. Once it was decided, there was no saving Cardassia, so the best option would have been to tacitly support it, and then, once the Dominion issue is dealt with, support rebellions in order to weaken the Klingons.
It would have been too late by then. The Klingons would occupy all of Klingon, Cardassian and Dominion space, and squish the Federation at the first sign they were supporting any sort of rebellion. And that's the best case scenario.
The first question is easy to answer: Was Gowron right?
Morally, no. Starting a war on a sovereign nation is wrong. Plain and simple.
But there is another question that should be asked with the benefit of hindsight:
Would the Alpha Quadrant have been better off if the Federation had stayed neutral in the Klingon-Cardassian War?
It's pretty reasonable to assume, that the Klingons would've crushed the Cardassians. They would've probably captured the Detapa-Council right there and then and it's not unlikely to assume that they would've capitulated in some way, shape or form.
And then what? No war between the Federation and the Klingons. No losses of life and equipment. No Cardassia to invite the Dominion into the Alpha-Quadrant. At some point the Dominion might've attacked through the wormhole outright, in order to secure Bajor and DS9 as a beachhead. The Federation would've probably fortified that position. If they could hold it, all would be fine. Sooner or later they would put up those self-replicating mines at the wormhol-exit and there would've been nothing the Dominion could do about it - and if not, bottle-necking them through the wormhole would've still been the best course of action.
But if they had taken DS9, it's not unlikely that Dukat would've negotiated with the Dominion to rid Cardassia of the Klingon occupation and we would've been in the same situation as before.
So, ultimately, nothing changes.
"War. War never changes"
😋
I take issue with your first axiomatic statement, "Morally, no. Starting a war on a sovereign nation is wrong. Plain and simple." such a statement makes the assumption that 1.) the morality of the action is universally inherent to any moral person, 2.) That such morality is to be applied universally among all sentient creatures, and 3.) That the morality of the statement is so obvious that it needs no explanation.
So the question is, why is starting a war on a sovereign nation wrong in your moral view, and more importantly, why should I and others like myself ought to follow your moral view?
@@eva-xv1bi Exactly. War IS part of the Klingon ethos. Growing old and fat while your empire stagnates and is eventually conquered by your enemies(or allies) is immoral to a Klingon. Even in our own world it's never been immoral to attack a sorvreign nation. It happens routinely either through force or arms or economic sanctions. They're both attacks.
You changed the outcome of a major event that effected the Alpha Quadrant and yet, you said that nothing changes?
Here's a question that you should ask yourself. How is it possible for Dukat to negotiate Cardassia joining the Dominion if he died when the Detapa Council members were captured?
Is it immoral to start a war on sovereign nation for the reason of responding to the plea for help from the citizens to stop the government from torturing them? If so, why?
Yes the Klingons where justified
It’s doubtful the Depta council would have held on to power long. Weyoun mentioned that when the Dominium arrived on Cardassia that a famine was under way. In the TNG episode where Picard was tortured by the Cardassian Gul he stayed that it was the military that ended the famines and hunger when it seized power. I doubt Central Command would have allowed the council stay in charge if the situation worsened
With Cardassia under Klingon control. The Dominion would not have been able to gain a large foot hold in the alpha quadrant so easily. Unless the Marquis signed an alliance with them. The Klingons more then likely would have allowed the Federation and Starfleet to ship aid and food to an occupied Cardassia especially if the UFP had supported its Ally in the invasion The Changling threat was still there of course but Section 31 was already on the job. (Though illegally, immorally and evilly). Cardsssia would have been more staple and fed under the Klingons and eventually threw diplomatic means the UFP could have conned the Klingons into going home. The nearly endless supplies and technical ability of the UFP which helped Bajor recover so quickly could have gotten Cardassia back on its feet as well
But that doesn’t make for good tv 😂🤣
The klingons could just fortify and militarise in advance to prepare, as well as set up security measures. Wait until the Dominion is revealed, and attack without mercy.
Not exactly on topic, but a question that always bugged me. Why did the Dominion never utilize cloaking technology? It was there for the taking and I can't help but feel that cloaks for their fleets or a better means of pinpointing cloaked Romulan and Klingon vessels would have been an advantage worth having.
Seemed like the same Changling paranoia the Federation almost fell victim to.
Gotta love good old Crazy Eyes Gowron.
I think there's a certain pragmatic reality that can force one into a box. Its been a while since I watched the series and my own thinking could be a bit idealistic. I imagine theoretically the Federation could propose some sort of compromise where the government leaders of the various powers got together to establish that they are not Founder agents, to prove to each other and themselves. Some latitude could be extended to the Cardassians that they could request attendance of individuals they have particular concern about among the asking parties. But with the condition that if the Cardassians didn't agree to the compromise, while within their right to do so, other powers would be forced to conclude Dominion infiltration and act accordingly.
So one could take the stance that other powers could say you're not wrong to deny us what we want as it is an infringement of your sovereignty, but circumstances demand we adopt a certain posture in lieu of compliance. Its actually not terribly unlike demands for WMD inspectors being forced upon a country.
I feel that Gowron was a lot more complicated and smarter than he was portrayed. He saw things happening before most. He acted accordingly in most situations. He just fell on hubris. He didn't start as a villain, nor was he when he died. He got lost in his own fears and felt he was the only one to save the galaxy. Evil? No. Bad? Not really. I wonder what kind of trauma set him down this path. Worf had Kitomer and his honor that drove him. Martok had his idea of family. Just interesting.
Gowron was full of hubris and paranoia two deadly combinations. I like Gowron's arc is more tragic than villainous. He isn't evil. He honestly believes he is doing the right thing. That makes for some of the best antagonists. Ones who truly believe they are doing the right and just thing.
Yes! A bit harshly handled but totally justified. It was way too much of a mood swing for Cardassia and Dukat was never to be trusted. As for the Dominion, of course the Cadis can choose them if they wish. Our choices have consequences though. Like how the Germans democratically elected Hitler, that choice had rather dire consequences for all of Europe and required foreign intervention to set it right.
Lore don’t shill for Kurtzman, any BS nonsense you can find in Legacy pails compared to the literal “Time Traveling, Red Angel, Space Jesus”.
ouch... Hitler was NEVER elected in a free election. Infact, I'd compare this much more to the early 20s when, yes, Germany has become a republic but in the face of different attepmts of coup d'etat (including Hitlers) used the remaining old imperial military leaders to command their troops in self-defense... until they even made the most famous one their president WHO THEN (years later and against his own preference) declared Hitler to chancellor. The rest is history
@@Liopleurodon define free, most nations do not have truly free elections. That and don’t underestimate the simple seduction of “bread and work”. My point is a democracy can produce a monster too. In many ways the dictator is at least honest.
Martok is a changeling in that episode but u don't know it yet. DS9 is so freaking awesome there will never be anything star trek that good again. I like that line where dukat is like "I find this offensive dr." And Bashir says "your offensive" that and jadzia wins her bet dukat would complain instead of thank them. They should of replaced the decapa council with surgically altered sec 31 humans
Honestly I just realized but I honestly think if not for the federation Romulans and cardasians I do think the klingons could have easily taken over the alpha quadrant. But I also think this speaks to how hypocritical the klingons might be as they claim they value honnor above anything else but they can be just as unhonnorable as roumulans and cardasians and even fergini and the dominion. Notice I left out the federation mostly because humans even though they are capable of fighting don't want to conquer anyone out of all the super powers the federation/ humans are the ones who have the most optimism in the galaxy. It's as if earth and the federation has gotten rid of all their problems but every other super power still has a lot of distust and fear in them and still cling to quite frankly outdated ideas.
I'm not sure if this is true, but I thought the twist was that gowron was actually supposed to be the changeling, but before the next season they changed their mind. Meaning the Martok passing the test was true, but reconned by the behind scene change the next season.
Personally though, the big thing in whether or not, despite there being a changling influencing the events. Would invading or not invading actually of prevented Cardassia from joining the Dominion? Because we know that invading did end in that result, but Cardassia may of joined the Dominion's side even if they weren't being invaded. In that case: The invasion was fully justified with that consideration, and the Federation and Klingons could of knocked Cardassia out of the game and than proceeded to block up the wormhole.
Now if Cardassia wasn't going to join the Dominion, as long as Changlings weren't involved. Than it would of been unjustified, but like was mentioned in the video, how can you prove it? Are they going to let you test their leadership? Maybe the Changling is not in the upper leadership, but some more lowkey but influential role. Worst yet, their denial of being changlings and refusal to test will more than likely just prove their guilt in the eyes of the klingons and Federation.
I think the Federation should of convinced the Klingons of another option: Mine the Wormhole instead of invading Cardassia. Jointly defend the Minefield and prevent the Dominion from even entering the Alpha/Beta quads. Not only would that of solved the Dominion problem, by just simply kicking them out of the situation. It would also show if Cardassia is truly being run by Changlings, because who in their right minds wouldn't want the only way for the Dominion forces to enter blockaded. Other than the Dominion and their agents? And if Cardassia attempted to destroy the minefield, thats open grounds for war and than the invasion would of been a join matter between the Klingons and Federation.
Im not even sure why the Federation/Klingons even let the Dominion out of the wormhole in the first place. Baring their concerns of not being ready to stop them. They already have been attacked by the dominion and a whole Galaxy class ship was destroyed by the dominion. Id already consider the Federation and Dominion at war. And with the Nebula incident, the Romulions and Cardassians are pretty much already at war with them. I don't see any major faction who would disagree to keeping their mutual enemy contained in their own quad. Even without their approval, the Federation should of gotten Bajors approval to Mine the wormhole and only provide a narrow access corridor for single ships with every ship being stopped and checked for Changlings.
The obvious answer is "Because the writers" and I mean, that would of been a boring but effective solution to end the series more important plot line with little effort. But id personally of went for blocking off the wormhole as soon as possible, atleast to the dominion on the grounds of them attacking federation ships with little cause.
If Sisko just talked to his buddies in the wormhole and said don't let anybody through, billions of lives would've been saved.😭
I guess we all assume that Gul Dukat sought out the dominion to join. But maybe, he was captured in the gamma quadrant by the dominion and forced to do so?
Unlikely, he needed a Way to kick out the Klingon Occupants and get the Cardi Empire back its Feet, the Dominion was the only Faction willing to make that happen
No, and here's why. That invasion of Cardassia to prevent them from becoming an Ally of the Dominion, made them an ally of the Dominion and put a wedge between two major powers opposing the Dominion all in one fell swoop. For the Dominion, it was win, win, win.
Unfortunately the Gowron situation there is would never settle with the man looking good.
We already labeled the whole situation a cold war. And like the Cold War of Earth the Dominion had absolute control of information coming from their side, infiltrators in place with our governments and infiltrators if not just sympathizers among our media.
If they were allowed choice, our own would silently celebrate their passing into the Dominion, if we challenged them, our own would condemn us, if we tried to bribe or influence them our own would make a big fuss about it. And it wouldn't be until long after the Dominion failed that our own would finally admit that "yeah maybe the Dominion wasn't good guys and guilty of genocide, but we're just so much worse".
Gowron and the Empire ultimately felt they had been at peace too long. Apart from their own civil war, there had been no significant conflict or expansionism for decades. Gowron probably felt as Chancellor he needed a significant victory to make his rule legendary and derail any potential challengers within the Empire. Strangely why he didn't make a case to attack the Dominion directly and set himself up as the saviour of the Alpha Quadrant is bizarre however the Federation still wished to avoid war at all costs and wouldn't have supported this either.
Gowron : crazy Chancellor :: Putin : Crazy President I see the connection 👀
Alpha Quadrant was a multi-national system in a stalemate. The Dominion would have found someone willing to change that with enough time. Without klingon warmongering, which forced the cardassians into the dom., it would have been the romulans or even the klingons itself. Willing to split the alpha quadrant between themself and the Dom. to overcome the stalemate. Gowrons action only made it quick, giving the alpha quadrant powers less time to prepare for war. Which the fed already did since the odyssey incident.
Also: With a civil leadership, cardassia would have worked closer with the Fed and with some time maybe even join. That would have solved a ton of issues (maquis, bajor etc.) and would have tipped the balance of power in the alpha quad.. especially with a modernized, battle-ready starfleet. Gowron did not want a mighty federation and acted fast, since time was against the klingons. The longer he waited, the more capable would the cardassians become, the closer they would stand with the fed and the mightier starfleet would be.
nothing and i mean NOTHING will ever be better then star trek
The federation show have banded with the klingon!
Bloody great stuff as always
I'll be honest the smarter option would of been to back the Klingons... I mean as much as the events of Homefront hadn't happened yet the offensive wasn't going to be stopped they could of sent the warning and joined the fleet to Cardassia. They knew Odo was no where near the level of other Changeling so there is definitely a reason to suspect not just the Cardassian changes but the Klingons as well. That's why it would of been better to back the Klingon objective and take control of Cardassian territory to secure the alpha quadrant from Dominion infiltration. It seems a little paranoid but it was the only hope the Alpha Quadrant had.
The only downside would be the Romulans which would probably feel a bit surrounded... Though through diplomatic channels they would be invited to join in the effort to reinforce the Quadrant and prepare for what was inevitably coming.
I agree with the klingons! The Federat0ion makes decisions far too slowly
I think the civi coup was a natural event after the Obsidian order fell apart with all those losses from the attack on the assumed changling home world and the utter disgrace it put on the Order and the Tal'shiar those two groups were effectively put out of the game. The coup presented a chance for the infiltrators to pit the Klingons and feddies at each other which they exploited quite well and we never really got to see the whole range of plots the infiltrator had cooking or what other machinations were used to guide Gowron down that path. After all Gowron was Klingon and wanted battle, honor and the respect of all those around him which are all things you can use to blind someone then trick them into a mess. After Gowron would have looked very weak after launching an invasion only to end it gaining nothing for the Empire which would have spurred his rivals to take a shot at him. His choice to continue the war was as much about him as it was about preventing a potential civil war ...again. So the Klingon Empire continuing the invasion makes sense within the context of events and character of the players in the event. Really did well to show the Dominion as more than a military threat but also a subversive one which seemed to have been forgotten once the war was on. After all spy games don't stop once you are at war.
If the chancellor of the high council says it is , it is. So be it.
I mean, it's ok to wave small plot conveniences as long as the story makes sense and more importantly, compelling. Most of Kirtzman Trek, with the exception of Strange New Worlds, has had full big logical leaps while being uncompelling.
Most of legacy trek had it as well
@@LoreReloaded I agree, I mean it's amazing to me that OS Trek even had good, even great, episodes that hold up today. Butttt it was the 60's-90's television and not every or even half, the writers are Sci-Fi geniuses. Serialized television just opens up more possibilities. Discovery/ Picard never had a good, full season plot that was compelling all the way through, and as a full story it's open to that criticism to the entire series. As a serial, you can judge individual episodes and skip the ones written by "Intern writers of the week." For instance, my friend is showing his girlfriend, both under 27, all of DS9. They skip the Rumpelstiltskin episode and carry on with the wonderful series. You can't do that with Kurtzman style Trek, again, except Strange New Worlds which I am a big fan.
He was lied too. "Mardok" told him the C.U. was under the control of the Founders. An Gowron being Gowron took the bait an went to war. Glory to the Empire!
Yes he was. The Intel he received was, however, bad