The Forgotten Costs Of The Dominion War: How Minor Powers Paid The Price
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- Let's Just Get into it..
00:00 When Elephants fight
00:12 Unique Story Arc
01:10 The Maquis
03:06 Bajoran Republic
04:44 The Ferengi
06:03 Son'a
06:38 Other Powers
08:02 Conclusion
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The Sheliak probably got treaty offers from both sides and spent the whole war going through the documents, demanding changes...
They are still waiting for the Grizzellas to come out of hibernation so that they can arbitrate.
Chads.
As a swiss im convinced they based the sheliak on us 😂
they probably had a whole army of lawyers just to read one paragraph.
the doninion sent a special edition of Weyoun to handle the dominions embassy
*Picard and Weyoun in negotiations with the Tamarians,* who are represented by the former first officer at El-Adrel
*Weyoun* [in frustration]: What about Shaka's walls?
*Picard* [to Weyoun]: The river Temarc in Winter.
[Indicating Weyoun to the Tamarians] Kiazi's children, their faces wet.
[Indicating Weyoun and the Tamarians]
The beast at Tanagra.
Uzani, his army with fists closed.
*Tamarians* [to Weyoun]: Temba, at rest.
*Picard:* Sokath, his eyes open.
*Tamarians* [to Picard]: Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.
[They smile and both say in unison ] Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel.
Weyoun wonders if he should just activate his suicide implant then and there.
Simba his eyes open 😊
This is now officially canon in my eyes.
@@randomdavidactivation of the suicide implant right? Right...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Just imagine the vorta trying to talk the pakled into joining the dominion
If you do the logic of a 9 way rock-paper-scissors with the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Dominion, Borg, Voth, Climate Change, and the Pakleds after the givens and inferreds are listed one of the conclusions is that the Pakleds actually defeat the Borg. This makes sense if you think about it because they are retarded Space Orks who would escape the attention of the Borg until one day the Borg had found that the Pakled had already consumed all the resources in a sector of space. Why a Pakled downie-waaagh might even be able to overwhelm a unimatrix.
One of the things I really appreciated about Picard season 3 was that the effects of the Dominion War AND the battles against the Borg were literally everywhere, even when not outright stated. Captain Shaw's generation of Starfleet officers were forced to be soldiers far more than explorers or scientists and it shows, there's still lingering paranoia that seems to permeate Federation decision making, and Section 31 seems even more influential and powerful than ever before. It really painted a picture of a Federation, or even Alpha Quadrant that was weary from an era of war.
It makes the contrast with its brighter, more opitmistic past as represented by the museum more stark, as well as the fact one of the ships that saves the day is an old Galaxy class ship, arguably one of the last ships of the Federations' "peaceful" era before everything went down. To me, by the end it feels like the whole Federation is forced to reset back to basics as a way of healing but it really showed how much of a toll this era of war took on the Federation, and really the whole Alpha quadrant even decades later.
In one episode they say that Betazed had been completely overrun and was now under the control of the Dominion. And then it's never brought up again.
Well, they are part of the Federation, so not a minor power
Their homeworld was occupied, and most likely later liberated
Which is a shame because some of the side lore concerning the battle for Betazed is... pretty dark. Weaponized empaths are a thing to be feared.
Fighting Betazoids would have been like fighting psychers from WH40K. Mind controlled JemHadar turning on each other or just having their heads pop right off.
I think it comes up that the Romulans help liberate Betazed, and then just give it back, no concessions or anything, which surprises the Federation.
@@Scuzzlebutt142
My theory:
Lwaxana Troi.
That is all.
Interesting idea about the Maquis but I think the idea that the Maquis "could have just joined the Dominion" is a fallacy: its a small group of somewhat organized colonists turned guerillas/insurgents but not a power per se. On the contrary, I think this would always have been impossible: the Dominion needed a strategic partner and a foothold in the AQ so the Cardassians were the logical choice. Very likely that they said something akin to "sure we'll join and be an important power as your junior partner but you need to help us root out the Maquis". So I think the Maquis was always doomed.
About Bajor: I see them probably like something like Sweden in WW2. Playing both sides and being opportunistically pragmatic to survive and keep the peace. Certainly not Vichy.
I disagree, I'm sure the Dominion would have loved to have former Federation colonies willingly join the Dominion as a amazing PR stunt. Imagine Wayoun talking about how they brought peace to the badlands and welcomed with open arms those poor misguided abandoned Federation citizens and raised them up to Dominion status. They would take the worlds and systems as they see fit but would go out of their way to be a gentle loving friend to the Maquis and even make the Cardassians shake hands with them, at least till the war was won. After that I shutter to think.
If anything the maquis would have rejoined the federation when the war broke out. They were not fundamentally opposed to the federation, they were abandoned by it.
Your thinking of the Swiss,
@@JeanDanielCloutier You do have a point with the PR view. However, I think this omits the Cardassians: they absolutely hated the Maquis and still had leverage in their hands since the Dominion needed a partner in the AQ to begin their military conquest. They could have still very well sided with a joint defense effort with the Federation (and leave the Klingon war aside which was hurting but probably not existential at that point for the CU) and oppose the Dominion coming in. Then the question comes down to what is more important for the Dominion? The PR success (which isn't guaranteed since the Maquis definitely wanted to live self-governed) or having a strong military partner with the Cardassians? I see it more as the Cardassians having even more leverage over the Dominion before they established a foothold in the AQ than the other way around.
@@mikewaterfield3599 Them too, yes. But Sweden was arguably militarily more involved (see the mid summer crisis of 1941 and an entire German division moving through Sweden to join the Fins in preparation of Barbarossa but just a month earlier sticking the British the info that the Bismarck had sailed out of the Baltic Sea - can't really get any more "playing both sides" (not hating or anything, just stating historical facts)).
Id disagree with the Marquis assumption. You said it yourself: the Dominion wants subjugation, not more not less, but THATS exactly what the Marquis can not accept, no matter what the Feds or Cardies did to them before that. That they got wiped out simply made sure that they did not come to their senses and join the Federation again, supplementing them with important knowledge about Cardassian weakspots and about guerilla warfare. Also the Cardassians may've thought differently about their new masters too early if they were denied Bajor AND the Marquis (worlds). Getting rid of them, using the Dominion power, was just to easy to consider anything else.
I also add that the Marquis never were interested in going outside their colonies in the DMZ. The Dominion wanted to conquer and the Cardassians wanted their territory back. The Marquis held no threat nor advantage for the Dominion and were simply in the way.
Wayoun even sad as much when he and Ducati were talking about the Subjugation of the federation by eradicating Earth In order to keep the rest of the federation territories in line.
The fact of the matter is the Dominion only wants peace when the Founders controls everything. In Odo's first interaction the female changeling said as much.
The Fed -Cardassi "Peace Treaty":
1) Cardassia will NOT restart the War WHILE Fed genocides Maquis and ALL of Cardassia's enemies
2) As soon as Fed has genocided ALL of Cardassia's enemies, Cardassia will be strong enough to restart the War.
3) Prime Directive = Cardassia must be strong enough to destroy Fed
The Dominion and Federation worrying about which side the Maquis is on is almost laughable. That's like if NATO and the Warsaw Pact decided to have a go at it in the 80s and trying to court the PLO...🙄
The dominion war is something That should be described as something that lasts generations in its effects. It was meant to hurt and it still does for the federation and others. I think it should be mentioned in various threads in series to come. Because there was so much loss by so many different species and races that I think Most of the galaxy was affected by at one way or the other.
"The Maquis had a choice to join the Dominion."
I don't know of any point when the Dominion offered the Maquis a chance to join. They just went in a wiped them out. Also they were a small collection of terrorists, not an established galactic power.
Dukat's line about "Without any help from either of us they've already started a war between themselves"
No, That's Dukat's bullshit, The Cardassians were caught red handed supplying weapons to their colonists.
Quark's assertion that they could of made a deal is also flawed. I think you're taking that out of context as well. Quark was clearly seeing the brutality of the war firsthand, for the first time and was still dealing with it.
The Dominion in such negotiations with the Ferengi had the complete upper hand. The had the firepower to wipe the Ferengi off the map, the only way the Ferengi would of "survived" is to completely capitulate to the demands of the Dominon. Something most Ferengi would probably disagree with or come to resent.
Starfleet was fully aware of the Son'a involvement with the Dominon.
RIKER: "...Look at this. The Son'a are known to have produced vast quantities of the narcotic ketracel-white. Their ships are rumoured to be equipped with isolytc subspace weapons outlawed by the second Khitomer Accords."
One thing about the Star Trek writers is the fact that they had no idea how wars are actually fought. Just a lot of space ships both large and small zipping around like single seater fighters, the captains inside shouting "fire phasers/torpedos" while the consoles around them explode into sparks and smoke. There appears to be no order of battle at all. Just an every ship for itself melee while shooting at the nearest enemy ship.
All for the visual/dramatic effect.
To confuse the target.
I don't know. I kinda think the Orions would prefer the Federation to the Dominion. The Federation plays by the rules. Jurisdictions, rules of evidence, measured force, fair trials, innocence until proven guilty, etc. The Orion Syndicate has been playing cops and robbers with the Federation for centuries, and they're pretty good at it. The Dominion however would probably just round them all up as potential trouble makers and vaporize them, "just to be safe." Better the devil you know for the Orions.
Funny thing is, the Borg saved the Federation in the war. Without the borg starfleet woud still use a fleet of miranda, excelsior class ships. Mayby a few galaxy class. But at the beginning of the war half of the fleet was modernised with Akira, Sovereign or saber class.
You can also say Q saved them by pushing the enterprise in the borgs way
Lets not forget the maquis had a covert agreement with the klingon empire, military aid
Bajor also received 16 industrial replicators , for context the federation gifted 12 to the cardassians during the klingon war. And the day the domain lost ds9 the bajorans switched back to the federation
the tholians were probably be too busy manipulating timelines and being very sneaky, they were even shiftier than the romulans.
the gorn probably were busy doing gorn things.
The Maquis were doomed the moment Cardassia joined the Dominion. They were always going to be Target No. 2 for any revitalized Cardassian government.The deal Dukat made with the Dominion explicitly called for the liberation of Cardassian space. The Maquis had been a thorn and humiliation for the Cardassians. It was one of the top three matters that the Cardassian public weighed as an important barometer of the new government along with the Klingons and rebuilding the economy. Dukat absolutely had to deliver their heads on a platter to consolidate his position. As a consequence Dukat was intent on wiping them out just as much as he needed to sanitize Cardassian space of any Klingon presence. The Maquis never stood a chance.
Anyone else wonder how things would've turned out if Kirk had survived Generations?
Star Trek XXXII: Hero of Earth Kirk fends off the Dominion at the battle of Earth at the ripe old age of 140
Brings up a good point as he did then got killed off (bloody producers and even be consistent)
It would've made little to no difference. Kirk probably would've become an admiral again, given his tactical genius, but Starfleet had other capable tacticians.
The Federation would have used him as an ambassador to the Dominion. The Female Changeling would have been overwhelmed by Kirk's raw sexual energy during negotiations and become completely enamored with him. Once she merged with the other Founders and passed on her infatuation with him through the Great Link the Dominion would have complied with whatever Kirk said.
I don't no about his input on the war, but the population of the federation would be far higher at least lol
The Maquis, the Sona and Baku, the Bajorans, the Teplan, the Ferengi, the Orion Syndicate, they have a few scenes showing us what the minor powers did, but most was the big players, yes.
Eddington said that they had the Cardassians on the run... as soon as they "ran right into the arms of the Dominion", the first two things Cardassia would've wished for were: a) ridding themselves of all Klingons in their space, and b) the extermination of all Maquis within their territory. Dukat said as much. Even if the Maquis had negotiated a peace with the Cardassians, something they weren't particularly interested in, that wouldn't have lasted long as the Cardassians would've just reneged on the treaty and gone in firing with their new powerful friends. Had Bajor sided with the Dominion, they would've been the very first target of the actual war itself, though at the very least we'd have seen the back of Kai Winn.
Hmm... I wonder whatever happened to Lwaxana Troi when the Dominion took Betazed? Canon, I mean.
The books set after the Dominion war really explored how it effected the Federation and the other powers
If even had some of the smaller power join up with the now divided Romulons to form the Typhon pact to try and fill the power vacuum.
I've only read a little but of that book
@@LoreReloaded I thought those books were pretty good. I wish we could have had a show or movie explore that time period.
I'm unfamiliar with these books
I think the Bajorans and the Ferengi were both being pragmatic, albeit for different reasons. Bajor were still finding their feet after the occupation and probably didn't have the resources and stomach for another long conflict, whereas the Ferengi saw it as a business opportunity.
The ferengi are also a commerce power. The only battle they even had in their recorded history was lost. They knew they would never win in a direct war.
I imagine that most of them tried to stay out of it as best they could, trading with both if possible. If one was located a long way from DS9 and Dominion advances, I'd imagine it would continue business as usual. If one was right next to Dominion advances, I'd imagine it would be friendly to it while pleading an inability to contribute to the fighting.
About the Maquis: the moment that Cardassia joined the Dominion, they were doomed. The deal that Dukat struck required the Dominion to liberate all of Cardassian space. That meant driving out the Klingons and wiping out the Maquis entirely. Short of Starfleet's intervention, prematurely starting a war that the Federation wasn't ready for, the Maquis's only hope was evacuating to Federation space. Most, if not all of them, didn't do it, either because the Jem'hadar caught them by surprise or Maquis leadership failed to act.
About the Son'a: the film Insurrection happens at the height of the Dominion War, not after. The conflict between the Enterprise and the Son'a causes the Sona to join the Dominion, but given their losses fighting the Enterprise, it's unlikely that they had much military force left.
I disagree, I'm sure the Dominion would have loved to have former Federation colonies willingly join the Dominion as a amazing PR stunt. Imagine Wayoun talking about how they brought peace to the badlands and welcomed with open arms those poor misguided abandoned Federation citizens and raised them up to Dominion status. They would take the worlds and systems as they see fit but would go out of their way to be a gentle loving friend to the Maquis and even make the Cardassians shake hands with them, at least till the war was won. After that I shutter to think.
@@JeanDanielCloutier Sure, but the Cardassians wouldn't have allowed it. Destroying the Maquis was the cherry on top for them. Dukat wouldn't budge, and the Dominion very badly needed the Cardassians. They couldn't defeat the Federation without them.
Having former Federation citizens willingly join the Dominion (well, under coercion) would have been huge PR for them. There's no way the Cardassians (lead by Dukat) would have put those colonies at an even higher priority then Bajor and the Dominion was able to convince them not to annex it so it would have been easy to get them to not take back the DMZ colonies (at least not until the war is over).
"I am altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further."
Had the Federation not disbanded the MACOs, the Dominion War on the ground would have gone very differently in favor of the Federation. The siege of AR-558 would have been a resounding victory for the Federation had they staffed the defense position adequately.
If they'd had any concept of fortifications, heavy weapons, or combined arms, that battle would have been a turkey shoot. The Jem'Hadar rush forward right into fire. Yes they can be sneaky with the Shroud and yes they are physically strong but at the end of the day they are genetically cloned drug addicts who *expect* to die. And their Vorta Handlers rarely seem to relish being directly involved in any sort of combat, though they do enjoy getting to order the brutes around... the way that battle played out on screen was great drama, and overall the dominion war was one of the best written arcs in all of trek, and among my favorites in most forms of fiction for the way it tackles subjects like PTSD, or "shell shock" and war weariness, but it was very simplistic in execution. The JemHadar rush forward yelling and firing like mobs in a tower defense game- if there were just a couple auto turrets, maybe a trench or a wall, some fragmentation devices, or a hardened strong point then not one of the angry death clones would have made it behind the lines. They would have ran headlong into a prepared funnel, a kill zone, and been cut down before they were close enough to be a true threat.
I've always had heartburn with the way ST handles any sort of ground mission. Nobody in their right minds would send that many senior staff off into an unknown at the same time in the first wave. To be more tactically sound, you'd send down several teams, with probes and shuttles simultaneously, THEN once you established it was safe, allow some ranking officers to come down to the prepared CP. The closest they came to doing this was the episode where they go looking for Data and discover Lore in charge of Hugh's disconnected Borg- in one exterior scene you see other teams flanking the captain, armed with rifles at the ready.
The smart minor powers should have followed the Pakled/Red Dwarf route, and seen this as an opportunity to salvage a lot of _state of the art tech_ from the big players while staying out of the firing line of the same.
A minor power that's behind the tech curve could really advance if they grabbed a few damaged ships from the aftermath of a battle. And even stay in _relatively_ good graces with the Alpha powers by rescuing and repatriating any survivors discovered. Jem'Hadar survivors would not be a common issue as they would die fighting or suicide.
The response to a graveyard post battle is "Lets go shopping."
Imagine a species roughly equal to NX Enterprise development, they could pick up a medley of tech, from some old Mirandas and ancient Birds of Prey that would still be a century ahead and understandable to their best engineers, to getting their hands on Klingon (and Romulan) cloaking devices and Dominion antiproton beams so on.
[A mirror universe NX crew was able to decifer the tech of a Constitution class ship and repair it].
And if they managed to get their hands on a reasonably intact modern ship, then they could end up not that far behind the curve in just a few years.
A failure in inertial dampeners or life support and you've got an almost intact ship with some organic paste on the bulkheads.
[Really the Breen made a big error in not salvaging all the abandoned ships after their first wide scale use of their Energy dampener, even though they were up to the state of the art. Enemy tech is a valuable resource.]
There could even be some working Yeager style Frankenstein ships with a Klingon wing and hull attached to a Starfleet saucer section, using the original parts with salvage from other ships as required.
After the war they would have a blend of Starfleet, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Breen and Dominion tech .... and weapons.
And a higher percentage of healthy military age adults in their population (taking into account species life cycle) than the other Alpha powers.
Just have to hope that your Homeworld is not in a vital strategic location.....
History is written by those who had the will and spine to take up arms, and littered with the bones of those who refused to do so. Vae Victis.
Great Vid Lore I Love your Outlook on The Dominion War.
I know that I do not get a chance to reply to most of your videos, however I do like and share as much as I can. Your work is one of the best in the Star Trek community. With that being said, I wish there were more of these types of videos. I love to see the fallout of the war that no one else really puts thought into. Keep up the awesome work Lore. Til the next time.
Great video,,, please keep them coming !!
Nice, thanks for the video
Dominion war rocked the Feddie society to the core 😢
Not really, you can start to see it in TNG starting at least in "The Measure of a Man", not so much in TOS, but you can from the Wrath of Khan, that these are not moral people. They are a dangerous people from whom the morphogenic virus program could have been drawn at any time.
However, imagine being a Cardassian child growing up right at the end of the Bajoran Occupation. His world view was perfectly ordered and society was steadily improving, then in a matter of a few years nearly everything had collapsed and he was being hunted to extinction, with his only potential allies being foreign powers who sought to conquer his territory.
Nicely done video.
I think that at the end of the day, a lot of the smaller powers which would have been aligned against the federation didn’t for the simple fact that, if the dominion lost, there would be a fleet of militarized starships with battle-hardened crews eager for more blood. Part of the federation’s thing is that, when there’s isn’t a war, they tend to heavily demilitarize…meaning that the superpower that existed before was essentially operating with it’s claws not extended. Plus, with Utopia Planitia probably working overtime to produce new battleships, the federation would likely have been able to replenish their ship count pretty quickly in regards to actual combat potential.
The dominion was, on the other hand, an unknown threat at large. They had massive fleets coming through, and who knows how many more waiting to come through once they had the wormhole back, so it would be pretty stupid to side with the federation if you were known to be neutral. However, in regards to that, if you think the dominion would target you either way, for association with the federation or just due to a particularly incompatible culture, it would make sense to side with them, such that you would have the federation’s might actually shielding you actively.
The tie in comic to Resurgence mentions that the Talarians were fighting the Dominion in a pretty brutal side campaign that was happening parallel to the Federation Alliance's war with the Dominion
I imagine the Changelings would have been quite busy disrupting these smaller powers during the war
Thanks Lore! 😊
I thought Bajor during the Dominion War would have been more like Finland during the Cold War. They have preferences on who they want to work with, but are relatively powerless to challenge military aggression, so they clung to neutrality for safety.
Keep making videos, i like the nostalgia : )
What I have always wondered is why use human/organic soldiers in a war in the future. The fact you can replicate all kinds of machines, means you could create an army of robots holding phaser rifles and such.
Or just automated turrets, drone ships and self propelled mines, remote operated strike craft, etc. At the very least you could put starship grade powerplants and shields on a ground vehicle and turn it into an assault breaker- or a hardened command post.
i really like how your brain works through these things
I think Bajor, if it could be compared to any country, might be somewhat analogous to Finland in WW2. Finland, much like Bajor, managed to thread an incredibly fine line between collaboration and neutrality with the Nazi government, allowing their armies to operate in their territory as part of Operation Barbarossa in exchange for material and military support against the USSR while also simultaneously refusing the implement any Nazi race-policies or operate in any theater of the war except the sector which contained Leningrad (their official title was "co-belligerent" instead of "ally").
Wow Quark has some really good hearing.
With ears like that, he'd better. Lol
Many of the smaller powers, actually just kinda fell under the radar of the bigger ones. And did business as usual. If your world isn't strategically viable, then just continue on as the big guys cause havoc. While the Domions goal is to seek dominion over the Galaxy, and these worlds probably would prefer the federation to win, but joining sides would be a risk to them if the Dominion wins and they get conquered, it is better than getting defeated.
In an alternate timeline, hundreds of federation ships and thousands of officers broke away from star fleet and joined the Maquis
The dominion war reminded me of the aftermath of the Napoleonic wars. A lot of small unimportant polities scrubbed away leaving a more orderly area. Though I always found it stupid that large scale wars didn’t occur more often in the alpha quadrant.
I think that production costs had a big part for large scale wars rarely happening. Even with CGI, battle scenes cannot be cheap. And the extra actors with uniforms too.
@blockmasterscott in universe the production costs would also be an issue to just engaging in a quadrant wide open war. Everyone is poised and waiting for someone else to slip up and give them a reason, or display a vulnerability. It's also suggested that almost everyone has political ties or mutual aid treaties with one of the major players, so war would end up being a cascade effect until everyone was drawn in.
"The Founder's words still echo in my ears, "By the time you win this war, you'll have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat." ..... you can't deny the accuracy of that statement." You are correct @AMindnamedAdam, the founders where right.
They where correct, and it shows in how the federation was changed or what was left of it from that war. I wonder if we only took their advice and stayed on our side of the wormhole in the first place that the war would have never been fought if so at a very very later time in the federation history.
I've always kind of wondered about the Tamarians. I doubt that they had the numbers to seriously challenge the Dominion, but...if the Dominion casually strolled into Tamarian space, taking them lightly, then they certainly could have gotten a bloody nose or two. The only Tamarian ship that we saw packed a punch.
Right, and they seemed to value saving force unless there was no other option. Its clear they *can* fight if pushed.
Also what about the Talarians, Angosians, among others. I bring those 2 up specifically because of their nature. Talarians are known to be fiercely defensive of their territory and have tangled with the Feds before. I doubt they'd welcome the Dominion. The Angosians profess to be peaceful but they have tech to create super soldiers that seem to be more than a match for the standard Jem'Hadar mainly because of how resourceful they could be.
This was always the federations plan...
I think in a few non canon sources the Gorn were allied with the federation but could only provide material support. I like to think after Cestus III theyve been steadfast allies if the federation. For my own head canon the Tholians remained neutral at first but unlike the Romulans didnt tolerate the Jem'hadar violating their territory to attack federation targets and began attacking dominion ships. They joined the alliance though couldn't contribute much and joined rather late.
I could have sworn Sisco mentioned there where a few Gorn ships in there fleet in in one of the final episodes
The Maquis were named after the French resistance in World War II. There was no compromise between them and the Cardassians so for the Dominion they had to go.
I do not think Maquis was recognized as a "power". Dominion would never accept a group of people that buck authority, as Dominion is all about subjecting oneself to the state. Prior to the Klingon war the maquis was the thorn in Cardassians sides. in which they really could not do anything about maquis prior to the Dominion unless risk in drawing the federation to openly support and assist the maquis on the Cardassian side of the border.
In reality, even a group of rebels have to go home at some point. Selling out to the Dominion for political legitimacy would be a sensible thing to do if you’re an unrecognized rebel group wanting independence from your neighbors. Might not be the best deal, but if you can’t win forever, taking a deal is better than nothing. Especially considering the Federation will sell you out for a Klondike bar and the cardassians were well, the Cardassians.
I disagree, I'm sure the Dominion would have loved to have former Federation colonies willingly join the Dominion as a amazing PR stunt. Imagine Wayoun talking about how they brought peace to the badlands and welcomed with open arms those poor misguided abandoned Federation citizens and raised them up to Dominion status. They would take the worlds and systems as they see fit but would go out of their way to be a gentle loving friend to the Maquis and even make the Cardassians shake hands with them, at least till the war was won. After that I shutter to think.
Depending on the size an area it's not just grass... all kinds of things suffer an pay the price in an elephant fight would think. Especially when them Elephants are shooting energy weapons at each other an attacking each other even out in deep space with high tech gear an space ships
Some probably used it as an opportunity to salvage technology from all the major races. The Pakleds, Talarians, Lycians, and other tiny powers could easily gain a huge windfall from salvage of any of the battles
The Talarians especially would be all over this, as militaristic and xenophobic as they are.
The Maquis would be an interesting faction for the Dominion to consider. Small, but relatively harmless. They just want to live where they are in peace... something the Dominion can guarantee. The Dominion has been shown to be very hands-off for those who don't cause any trouble.
I always said if I had to pick a fictional evil empire to be conquered by I'd pick the Dominion. The founders just want order. As long as you don't upset that order they'll leave you largely alone.
Not to mention all the smaller governments in the Gamma quadrant that were met in the first two seasons. Admittedly some of them may have been told to be quiet about their membership but I think I read somewhere that Word of God said the wormhole was actually just outside their space.
Either side getting the Pakled into the war would have ended it decisively in their favor.
When do we get part two of the map video?
We know from one of the DS9 episodes that people who did not want to get involved in the Dominion War fled to neutral planets. It is possible that planets of the smaller powers housed refugee camps during the war.
While it might be comparing apples and oranges, often smaller powers who can stay neutral or at least stay on the sidelines of a conflict between major powers, can come out of it in a stronger position. On the other hand, smaller powers that get caught up in between... whether on the winning or losing side, often suffer and end up being under the thumb of whomever won. Even if they sided with the winners.
Then again, smaller nations that rely heavily on trade or banking and do their best to play both sides, tend to do very well. Often becoming new regional powers themselves.
The Maquis would never have joined whichever side the Cardassians were on. They could have, however, made a run for Federation space and more of them would have lived.
Hi, James!
Just a note, FYI, Vince Fontaine was a character from the movie "Greese" starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John. Just a little trivia...Have a Merry and safe Christmas
The Tholians were the winners of the Dominion war.
@bienG6745 They're the most advanced power to come out completely unscathed, while maintaining diplomatic ties with both sides. They're still at full strength while everyone's licking their wounds and they didn't make any enemies in the process.
The Ferengi Alliance recently joined the Federation under Grand Negas Rom
And the tholeans were also there.
... i'm sure that the Dominion War must have made the tholean news, despite being burried under headlines dominated by the latest developments in a century long, vast multiverse cosuming war waged between parallel greater tholean empires that only through the chaotic whims of fate have not yet consumed the primative lesser time lines explored by the show. 🤔
The Maquis were to minor too worry about in either direction.
I wonder if the initial Dominion plan was to establish a foothold in Cardassian space, then slowly help them expand-maybe initially against their old enemies…the Maquis, the Klingons only within their borders, and older foes like the Talarians and Tzenkethi. That is, helping them become more of a superpower before going after the Klingons proper, the Federation, and the Romulan Star-Empire. All the while signing non-aggression pacts with the Tholians, Miradorn, Ferengi, others, and eventually the Romulans-who they’d be the last to betray, after neutralizing the Klingons and Federation.
Also during all of that you’re asking who wants in to the Dominion-either as a full-fledged member (Breen) or a military ally (Romulans, Sheliak, Tholians…Nyberrite Alliance?)
All that was out the airlock when the Federation took preemptive action and declared war on the Dominion.
The little guy always takes a beating when the big boys go at it. If you don't believe me ask Belgium 👍
I find it odd that the Ferengi would ever seek a peace negotiation per se. The rules of acquisition would demand that they find a way to profit off both sides of the war and delay its conclusion as long as possible and playing both sides. I imagine helping whoever was the underdog secretly while appearing to support the stronger nation but in reality, sabotaging them with shoddy war materiel but getting both sides addicted to their sales of war machines and related things.
You need to make a war map like the last one you made
The other governments did not want to face the wrath of Federation Starfleet plot armour. 😂
The Maquis would never have joined the Dominion as that meant servitude. The Cardassians made the short sighted choice. The fact that the Dominion actually despised the Ferengi didn't help any Ferengi brokered peace.
The Dominion work as a dark mirror of the Federation. While the Federation seek out new members to join their ranks, with the promise of economic and social integration (with a side of protection), the Dominion offers “protection” predominantly (with a side of just integration). Anyone who could pose a relative aggressor that would lead to unnecessary expenditure of resources for the Dominion (the Tholians and Miradorn) or could pose strategically beneficial to their main war objective (the Ferengi or Bajorans) get non-aggression pacts or peace overtures. Any regional power considered small or weak wouldn’t warrant a second look until after the war is concluded (unless their space proved vital to advancing the war effort).
Japan when the US and Russia set Tokyo in their sights: first time?
Maquis were not willing to accept subjugation from anyone not the federation, not the Cardies nor would they accept it from the Dominion - Maquis were doomed from the start as they had barely next to none military power nor had they any real capacity to withstand any sort of real attack from the dominion- they harrased cardasians who were too busy with their own internal problems and that was only what was keeping the cardasians from wiping them - the dominion would just send jemhadar and that would be it.
A guerrilla war cannot work against a government with no concern for public opinion and a military that has no ROE.
I feel like smaller empires couldn't really blame the Federation for the war. The Dominion is coming in from the Gamma Quadrant and is a very clear aggressor while being a much, much more 'evil' or malevolent entity than the Federation, even on its worst day. Sure the entire war was bad for everyone's business, but they no doubt had many offers or requests or pleas from the Federation for them to join, so if they stayed neutral they can't expect any kudos or benefits.
I wonder what all those god-like aliens Kirk met were doing while the galaxy burned around them. Probably nothing, like most Gods.
Organians are jerks.
But what I really want to know is what the Kzinti were doing during the war. Since they're oddly canon and all.
This is something that Lower Decks could explore
The Maquis would never have joined the Dominion though. They were abandoned by the Federation Government but maintained relations and influence as well as familial connections. They hoped for a change of Government and ultimately wanted to be brought back into the arms of the Federation. The Maquis do have honor, but they were desperate however still principled. Eddington would never stand for it either.
ST: SNW S02E08 was pretty legit - even if it was only one episode.
I think The Ferengi would have become a major power with more pull the UFP . Many minor powers would need goods to rebuild and services
I never thought of the bajorians like 4:40
A fascist Military government invades surrounding territory and take a people (a people who are spiritual and later become small force tacticians and fighters) are put into concentration and labor camps. Bajorans sounds a lot more Jewish to me.
Bajorans sound Palestinian to me...
Invaded by a beligeriant, aggressive occupying force and forced to use small arms a gorilla tactics to fight back in anyway they can ... Supported by the Geneva convention and UNGA Resolution 37/43 (1982)
The Bajoran/Cardassian conflict struck me as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but at some point in the series after the Cardies join the Dominion the roles reverse.
No one is looking for your uninformed one sided political nonsense. The way the cardassians act is similar to WW2 germany. The Bajorans are very much like the jewish people and suffer the same results, scorn and development.
Take your BS takes on modern shit elsewhere plz k thx@@SystemParanoia
When Quark was having that discussion with his Nephew Nog, he was right about humans. In a way he was telling Nog when looking for role models, don't go looking to humans.
I thought that speech gave as much begrudging respect for the capabilities of humans as it was a warning about them. He saw both sides of humanity and it scared him. He also saw what we used to be in the episode "little green men" and found it ironic.
The big question is what happened when the Dominion tried to set up shop on Organia? The Founders might be arrogant enough to try that.
the allies in greece world war one is simmlar to the dominion in bajor. The greeks just protested the allied presence and the allies never formally occupied or declared war on greece just used it as a base.
Why didn't we see the Tamarians in the war i wonder what a conversation between them and the Breen would sound like???
A lot of references to a river in Winter from one side, a lot of binary grunting noises from the other. 😂
I think the orion homworld was a neutral world but eventually joined the federation, but thr syndicate was a separate organised interstellar crime organisation. Beyond government control
To be fair, the Bajoran kept asking Sisqo to be a savior figure because he was a chosen person to help Bajor. I remember the Cardassian being the reason for the protest, not just because Sisqo told them to protest.The Dominion were a completely genocidal empire bent on conquest. The Federation were too kind if anything. Quark claiming a peaceful negotiation was possible is ignorance and kinda reflects those who have no understanding of war and government. It’s easy to step and say … we should sue for peace, without any knowledge or understanding of your enemy. It’s like saying Ukraine should let Putin take its territory.
Given that like the Federation humans where the backbone of the Maquis the Dominion was never going to allow them to survive just due to the nature humans have to one way or another wittle down any opponent they come across in the setting. Not that it's in the same setting but given they had their own war with the Dominion it's bizzare to me how little effect the war seems to have had on the Federation in the likes of Lower Decks and Picard, it must have been on a significantly lower scale then in the old Trek timeline given that type of conflict would have fundamentally changed the Federation to the point where there'd likely be mainstream political movements built around the resentment of humans, Andorians and others towards species who where seen as not having done their part in protecting the Federation in its time of need. Something that competent writers could have done a lot with but in the one season of Picard they where allowed to try they where more focused on different stories.
I disagree, I'm sure the Dominion would have loved to have former Federation colonies willingly join the Dominion as a amazing PR stunt. Imagine Wayoun talking about how they brought peace to the badlands and welcomed with open arms those poor misguided abandoned Federation citizens and raised them up to Dominion status. They would take the worlds and systems as they see fit but would go out of their way to be a gentle loving friend to the Maquis and even make the Cardassians shake hands with them, at least till the war was won. After that I shutter to think.
A lot of the marquee where x Starfleet or part of the federation the kept a lot of their ideals and beliefs from the federation and Dominion goes against a lot of that so they wouldn't joined
I wonder if there is a space army in Star Trek?
Bajor during the war is probably closest to Sweden
I think the Firangi made a killing on the war though
Cardassia got genocided so hard they would have accepted any terms just to survive
Ferengi or Muun?😊
I paused this video 5 seconds in, typical lore reloaded the federation is wrong because the federation is wrong they also abandon people when they were needed blah blah blah...😅 Now let me watch the video and edit it with facts...lol
Just watch the video, and I was completely wrong, great points, and finally the federation wasn't wrong for once...lol😁😄😁
... you stopped at the loading screen and hallucinated the rest..I'll wait for these facts :)
...still... waiting :(
@@LoreReloaded I edited the original post...
@@donice88 gotcha!
Bajor is actually closer to a WWI Netherlands. Honestly WWI is a better parallel to the dominion war
Not much said about the Breen especially after the dominion surrendered.
I considered them a power on par with cardassia and thus not a minor one.. seems like they got off Scott free
You forgot the Breen
I considered them on par with the cardassians and thus a major player
Bajor was a allegory for Afghanistan, with the cardassian union being an allegory for the Soviet Union
Yeah, I can see that. It makes sense.
I'm 46 now and was in high school when DS9 started. It was pre-internet and, certainly amongst everyone I knew from high school to uni assumed the Bajorans were the Palestinians, and Cardassians were the Israelis. I say "assumed" but I actually remember it as everyone "knowing" that both civilisations were based on those two groups. I'm sure someone at uni had a Star Trek book or encyclopedia of DS9 era that stated this (as well as Klingons being based on the Japanese). It's nearly 30 years ago so I could be easily misremembering but I keep being surprised by the number of different countries that commenters assumed Bajor was based on
Wow, really? I am surprised by all three allegories. Thanks for sharing.@@anniealexander9911
@@anniealexander9911 that makes no sense it’s definitely the Soviet union esp since the bajorans used to call them godless with that’s what Afghanistans used to say about the Russians the also pushed the outa there planet threw terrorism same as the afghans
@@invictus2578 Fair enough. But I made clear that this was my personal experience and based purely on memory from when DS9 was on TV in the 90s, and that I might be misremembering. I also stated that I keep being surprised by the sheer number of different examples that people have put forward i.e. the Bajor-Cardassian story always seems current.
Why are the Orions theorized to be under Klingon control?