The HARDEST Decision When Buying A Catamaran (mini keel, winglets, daggerboards)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มิ.ย. 2024
- To get or not to get daggerboards, that is the question. It was one we had to ponder for weeks on our HH44 Catamaran. Especially because of this other option called winglets.
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Curiosity 2 is a hybrid electric HH44 Catamaran splashing late summer of 2023.
The biggest benefit to hanging around such a bespoke boat factory is the unfettered access to some of the world’s leading experts. Because it seems there are new specialists coming in to collaborate on different boats every month.
And lucky us, we managed to make friends with Erik Berzins while he was visiting the factory. He is a Yacht designer and all-around incredible engineer at Morrelli & Melvin. If you know who M&M is, then you already know they are regarded as some of the best designers in the world. And wow, we learned heaps about all things sailing while carpooling to the factory and exploring on weekends together.
He designs and manages a wide variety of projects including some very cutting-edge multihulls with mighty fancy appendages (daggerboards, foils, winglets, rudders). And considering we wanted to make a video explaining why we choose NOT to get daggerboards…we knew he was just the person to help us break down exactly what all these different appendages do.
To get or not to get daggerboards, that is the question. And it was a huge, difficult decision we had to ponder for weeks. Especially because of this other option we never knew about called winglets.
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WE’RE JASON AND NIKKI WYNN. A couple of modern-day documentarians, perpetual travelers, and seekers of tall tales.
We’ve been chasing our curiosity around the world on wheels and keels since 2011. Why? Because curiosity is the key to unlocking life. It pushes us outside our comfort zone, softens our assumptions, and helps us embrace the great unknown. The more we let our curiosity lead the way, the more we discover about ourselves and the world around us.
Our home is also our transportation and we spend weeks away from civilization and sometimes land. Self-reliance and living a sustainable lifestyle are a must. It's all about managing our resources and we’re always looking for new and better ways to do so.
We've lived off the grid for over 10 years now in everything from a Van to an RV to a Sailboat. Over time we have learned a lot about renewable energy, creating safe drinking water, and managing our waste.
Our journey is ever-evolving but the mission remains the same: #CultivateCuriosity
Timestamps if you like to Jump Around:
00:00 Catamarans: It's Daggerboards or Nothing!
00:48 Meet Erik Berzins Yacht Designer Extraordinaire
01:54 What Are Appendages on a Sailboat?
03:07 Benefits of Mini Keels on a Catamaran
05:32 Benefits of Winglets on Mini Keels
09:13 Benefits of Daggerboards (Asymmetrical & Symmetrical)
11:23 Best Daggerboard Design: Straight vs Curved Daggerboards
15:02 What Appendage is the Best: Daggerboard vs Mini Keel
16:08 Modern Chinese Tea House
16:51 Why We Chose Winglets over Daggerboards
19:44 Are Winglets on a Catamaran Strong?
21:13 Winglets on Monohull Sailboats?
23:54 Did We Make a Mistake Buying a Catamaran without Daggerboards?
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#BoatLife #Catamaran #TravelVlog #DigitalNomad #LifeStyle #Sailboats
© Gone With the Wynns 2023
![[MPD직캠] 베이비몬스터 치키타 직캠 4K 'LIKE THAT' (BABYMONSTER CHIQUITA FanCam) | @MCOUNTDOWN_2024.6.13](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/h99J4vWm7Ew/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m just a TH-cam sailor, but it seems to me you made the right decision for how you will use it. And future maintenance is always a consideration.
I agree - there will be more resale demand for the way they set up this cat than is now. I think they made the right choices.
I’m just a TH-cam future sailor current non-sailor and I support this message. It is always great seeing the thought that goes into future maintenance and taking everything into account.
Exact same. My research is watching all the stuff the Wynns and so many others go through. O'Kellys to Delos to etc etc
nah
Jason is just wanting to save money on going with these so that he can use the saved money to buy a dishwasher LOL
😆😆😂 You figured it out!
Dishwashers have saved a LOT of marriages. We've been married 57 years and started the first year with a dishwasher.😇
I no longer have a dishwasher after 60 years and now live in a hard water area. I have found I have to add bleach once in a while as my white dishes get a grudgy looking film! My neighbor and I feel like our dishes never look really clean, like with a dishwasher. Both of us are contemplating getting a small dishwasher like our neighbor has! Glad I had one once Covid hit!
I dont blame him top loaders are expensive so I hope he finds one to fit the corner where they have chosen to fit one if she lets him have one which I think she has as the blowback from subscribers including me would be massive I am just wondering whether it is a mutual decision to go without daggerboards to me it makes sense to go without them I would do the same if I had a choice as dagger boards are expensive and you have more safety with the wiglets as it protects the rudder as they have said and it makes the boat stronger to boot so it's a win-win.
Shabara mine
Remember when you guys were moving onto a sailboat before you knew how to sail and fast forward today. Now, you are stepping up in performance. Tiny steps lead up to dream goals met. ❤
As an Aussie, we were so impressed when Australia 2 won the America Cup 1983, back in the day.
The big advantage they had was the design of the keel with a bulb and winglets, by Ben Lexcen, which started the tradition of winged keels.
I think you made the right decision on the dagger boards. You don't need any added complexity and failure points in your boat for what you do. I guess if it takes you another day to get somewhere it's a small price to pay for having to sit on the hard for months to fix a dagger board. It goes along with the KISS principle which in most things in life is a very good rule of thumb. Keep the good stuff coming guys and happy anniversary.
More engine time ,so kinda defeats the purpose of a sailboat.Bad idea really😮
Dagger boards are hardly complex.
That doesn't really make much sense. Avoiding dagger boards does avoid some complexity but not much and pretty much anything which will break a daggerboard will also either break or heavily damage a standard keel.
Additionally, while HH boats while extremely impressive from an engineering standpoint they are definitely not KISS. They're more or less comfortable raceboats. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as a boat, but as a cruiser they're terrible. Everything is hyper-digitalised, made out of carbon-fibre (which while an amazing material takes damage extremely poorly) and there is very little in terms of back ups. A lightning strike and/or collision with a container, whale or uncharted ground will make the boat extremely dangerous and will very possibly sink it.
All these problems are present to some extent in all modern cat manufacturers and the way keels are built for almost all modern monohulls makes them extremely dangerous for cross-ocean sailing too (kraken is, to the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer making boats with an integral keel). However, HH is a particularly bad offender, they build some of the least durable and worst suited boats for cursing and market them for that exact purpose.
Dagger boards are simple to fix with no need to haul out... Keels are way more ongoing maintenance and when damaged can be more expensive due to haulout costs
The winged keel, if my memory serves me correctly, was introduced to the sailing world in the American's Cup race in 1983 onboard the Australia II 12m boat. The keel was designed and tested in secret by Ben Lexcen in the Netherlands. Great Aussie/Dutch innovation!
For his 1983 challenge, Ben Lexcen revolutionised sailing yacht design with the creation of the winged keel. Described as 'upside down', the keel lowered drag, made the boat more stable and manoeuvrable, particularly in tacking.
Cheers guys live your videos,Tony Brisbane Australia 🇦🇺
Happy Anniversary! I think you guys made the right decision with the winglets. So stoked to see you guys out on the water with that beast of a boat! Cheers!
From your transition from RV to Cat Sailing to now designing a high performance Cat, meeting top designers and boat builders... You have become such experts. You can swim with the big fish now. 🐠. The science of boat speed is so mind boggling (engineering & physics). Love how they take the extreme strides and sneak them into a. Cruiser for improvements. So many decisions🥴 can't wait when you take off on the water. Blessings!
It’s the Wynns again this Sunday morning! Getting closer and closer to the final details done for this lovely boat! 👍😊🌸
I think the fixed keel is absolutely the best way to go. Don’t give yourself the maintenance and management burden.
Another wonderful feature of winglets is that they act like a shovel. So when the boat does run aground it digs in and anchors you to that spot so you don’t have to worry about going anywhere while you wait for a tow boat service to arrive and give them all your money!
She's going to be a terrific boat. I'm surprised you were talking about your concern on light wind. From earlier videos, to my understanding this boat's going to do just fine compared to earlier boats.
If you sail around the world with the trade winds, a dagger board would be in the up position most of the time and give no advantage. I think you made the right decision. I'm looking forward to a race against Parlay Revival. When winglets were introduced into the Americas Cup by Australia, it was a way to outwit the 12 meter rule. When the boat healed over, the winglets gave the boat a deeper draft than the boats without winglets, creating an advantage upwind. It was a brilliant move by the Aussies.
You're right that cruisers will have the daggerboards being in the up position most of the time. However, that doesn't mean they won't be providing an advantage. A dagger board in the up position produces almost no drag as opposed to a minikeel which, even with the best designs, will still produce quite a lot of drag. As for the winglets, to the best of my knowledge you are right about them being designed for and introduced on Australia II, however, the advantage doesn't have anything to do with outwitting rules or any particular length, it's simply a more efficient design for high speeds.
Coating a dagger board with bottom paint while on the hard can be quite the procedure when they are 12 feet long or longer! Also, one would have to worry about barnacles and such jamming them in the trunks.
I agree, you made the correct choice here. The other issue with dagger boards not mentioned is that because they have to make them so strong to withstand those forces constantly that when you do hit something with one, you can end up with a hull breach because the dagger board case cracks which is an even more scary situation. I have a catamaran with dagger boards, and another with mini keels, you can guess which one I use for cruising!
The main considerations for me were speed and safety, Dagger boards are safer when the shit hits the fan for real, pull them right up and have nothing to trip over, can not do that with mini keels. Large beam as well. I don't have an escape hatch.
I'm living vicariously through you guys! I can't wait til we're sailing again! 😂😂😂
I look at this way... If you get dagger boards you have to know how to use them, and to be honest it adds complexity to every movement you make. I agree the winglets would be my decision as well. I would rather just know my draft is X and cruise into an anchorage and chill....
I am here cheering you on knowing you did your homework and you know the use of your home- You got this! see you in a few Happy Anniversary
Based on your cruising requirements - I think you made a good decision.
When I hear people rambling on about performance; I never really hear them talk much about WEAR AND TEAR.
The harder you run most equipment, the more stress and wear you apply.
Jason and Nikki, thanks for digging into the technical in a way that few other content producers do. You've kept the topic narrow, invited expert opinion, kept to to the idea that it is all personal preference and then added a nice dose of local color. The average viewer does not have the time or resources to go pick apart each of these topics to this extent. At the end of the day, despite all of the eco this's and thats, you've still got one of the most impressive pieces of plastic in the ocean, and you're not sanctimonious about it.
We had a wing keel on our monohull. At anchor I noticed wonderful breezes coming through from the cockpit and thought - that's not right....we should be bow into the wind. Current and wind cause our anchor line to wrap around the wing keel. LOL. Another time in the Bahamas we ran aground in a remote area 3' from depth.....we sat firmly on our wing keel all night while the water drained out below our seacocks - never tipped and then as soon as we felt water lapping the hull we kedged and motored over to the depth. LOL! Fabulous lifestyle!
Happy Anniversary! Enjoy your week and cant wait to see your upcoming trip!
Happy Anniversary! Can’t wait til you guys are back on the water!!! So exciting
So glad you got wings! Awesome explanation of your decision process! As always, stay safe out there!
Happy Anniversary!! Interesting video with winglets and dagger boards. It’s amazing how far you have come in the sailing world, congratulations. Like they say the more information you can gather on a subject the better decisions can be made. Enjoy your time in Thailand and see you in two weeks.
Love the videos on the details and systems of the boat. Keep them coming.
Great video, I was impressed that I actually understood 90% of what Eric was talking about especially the comparison of the winglet on the keel to the winglet on an aircraft. On an aircraft wing there is what's known as wing tip vortex (a swirling motion in the air as it travels off the end of the wing or wing tip), wing tip vortex creates more drag, more drag equals less speed. The keel acts the same way, it creates a vortex at the bottom of the keel, by adding the (horizontal) winglet, it prevents the water from rolling off the bottom of the keel and creating the vortex type flow with the water (I think that is called fluid dynamics, but I am not sure). Again fantastic video, and great choice in adding the winglet.
Your boat, your decision. Thanks for sharing. 😊
Wife and I had the same discussion you two had as we have a HH50 OC being built. I can see her in your videos as it is two over from where yours sit. It might have been the one you filmed the actual keel-winglet on within this video. We came to the conclusion as you two as we are cruisers and the cost difference was also a factor.
What is the difference in cost of the mini keel / wing and the straight dagger boards...?
@@pauldegan8324 They do not price it out individually...you either get the cruising version or the sport version. Sport version is full carbon hull, carbon mast & boom and carbon dagger boards. The cost of the upgrade package (sport version) from the cruising version is ballpark $350k-$400k USD. That is the figure HH has stated in the various boatshows. I'm not sure the price difference for the H44 that the Wynn's are getting as I can only speak to the HH50. But if I was guessing.... $300k USD
Happy Anniversary, to the best sailing couple on the internet!
And thank you very much for the detailed descriptions of equipment and sailing.
You've chosen well!!! So much info shared here!! I love this learning experience, knowledge not shared any where else!!!! I can't wait to see your next adventure! Sending love Nikki and Jason!!❤❤
Happy Anniversary!! Thank you for all the great info and entertainment.
Love learning all about your new boat. Thank you, cheers!
Wise decisions based on research, and knowledge that suits your cruising style and life. Best regards sent. Enjoy life, congratulations on your anniversary.
Great choice. I totally agree. Have a great trip and a wonderful anniversary!
A super interesting video this week and a really great interview with someone who actually isn't in sales and knows their stuff - looking forward to seeing Jason going upwind with his hair on fire or maybe a Katniss Everdeen moment for Nikki 🤣. I really would like to know if the winglets are providing lift why are they symmetrical or do they not behave in a fluid like in air so angle of attack is more important? The other question and you sort of answered it is would simply putting on one electric motor make the real advantage of daggerboards in light wind irrelevant - you can effectively increase apparent wind with a bit more air speed so sail higher anyway and a small amount of added energy oversomes any drag deficit of the stub keel and improves lift efficiency, also as the motor is off-centre you reduce leeeway by adding a rotation vector to the hulls so improve vmg.
Sorry guys, but I can think of two downsides to winglets on your mini-keels:
-More wetted surface area means more profile drag
-Higher likelihood of snagging seaweed and crab pots
Good to get on camera a competent naval architect👍. When a client says "I want this one thing", the architect has 40 things that are impacted by just that one thing you want and... a list of engineers to manage that change.
Happy Anniversary!
Many thanks for sharing your explorations with us--keep up the outstanding work.
I love how you two see something, discuss and research it before you make a decision as to whether or not it will benefit you in the long term. You will have an amazing home to take you anywhere, once you have finished building it.
Thanks for covering this topic!! You made the perfect choice. You may or may not want to go faster (though I think you’ll go plenty fast), but I’ve never heard anyone wonder about whether they’d like to point better or more poorly. No one says, “ya know, for $5K, I just really would rather have worse VMG for all those years of sailing”. Very excited for you both!
Happy Anni guys! Can’t wait to see you in your beautiful new boat on the water! Have a wonderful break ❤
Happy Anniversary! I agree with the mini-keels and winglets. I'm sure the boat will have all the performance you need (and more, probably) as live-aboard cruisers while keeping things simple.
Y’all did what you knew was best for y’all! Great decision and great video! Happiest of Anniversaries to you both! 🎊🍾🎉
That was really fascinating video. Thank you. You guys enjoy your anniversary and have fun in Phuket. Will see you then. Safe travels and love from California.💜🫶⛵️😎🇺🇸
You guys are the most patient ppl!!! Love your channel!😊
Sunday Morning Coffee with the "Wynn's", nothing better than this! What a learning curve on keels, dagger boards, efficiency, etc. It is so interesting to learn how much sailing has turned in the last 15 years. The only thing is when your guest Erik was discussing the wing tips of an aircraft that was a really silly remark, they are not just for aircraft to fit together. They serve a far more important Purpose. They improve the efficiency of the Aircraft! Just like your illustration at Min 6:12 said. This aspect has been in use in Aviation for at least 50 years. When I worked at Cessna Experimental Twin Division we were just incorporating it into the Citation 500 Jet and their brand new Designed twins Piston Aircraft. Glad you cleared that up. Happy Anniversary Jason & Nikki! Wow! Cannot wait to hear and learn about Thailand!
I think you made the right decision. And the smart decision. But I know I would have gone for the daggerboards, probably the curved ones if they were available. I just could not help myself.
Love all this behind-the-scenes info!
Congratulations on your aniversary. God bless. May you have many, many more.
Very informative as usual!!!! Great video and definitely the right choice.
Congratulations you two! ❤
For my 2cents, You guys are cruisers, as you mentioned, and if you find yourself solo in the middle of the night and a blow pops up, the dagger boards are one more thing to possibly get wrong/forget to adjust. Fixed was definitely the right choice.
Happy Anniversary. Congratulations!
Good choice, and liked the decision process explanation shared.
Happy Anniversary, Nikki & Jason! Have fun in Thailand. Safe travels ❤️
Nice choice! Can’t wait to see it sail
Happy Anniversary you guys. All the best to you both. Enjoy your week off from publishing content.
I love the wings!
Absolutely, comfort and safety go first.
Happy Anniversary guys.
Fun fact, in Auckland harbor there is an Americas Cup monohull that was the one which won, it's now a monument, the secret sauce was the use of a winglet. Next time you are there you can go and have a look at it on display there.
"Kiwi Magic" lost, actually. USA's Catamaran, with daggerboards, easily defeated the behemoth Kiwi boat. :) Meanwhile, it was the Aussies that introduced a wing keel to the 1983 Cup that proved victorious over the Americans. Thanks to Morrelli & Melvin, it's great to see Cup technology trickling down to cruising boats though.
@@TheSailingFamily out of curiosity, i assume you would choose the dagger board option....?
@@pauldegan8324 Maybe? I think this is a budget question, and at the moment I don't have the budget! But I am also from a racing background and I enjoy eking out every 0.1 knots from a boat. So yes, if I had the cash, why not!? :)
Happy Anniversary guys, I hope your keel doesn't prohibit you from the more shallow areas of anchorages too much, where a removeable daggerboard would give you more clearance in those situations! Love your presentation and best of luck. Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
Happy Anniversary! I learned a lot from this video. As a non-sailor, I just assumed that catamaran == daggerboards needed. Really appreciated the interview/conversation with Eric, and the explanations by all of you.
I have sailed various cats without dagger boards nor keels, and they did upwind pretty well. It largely depends on the shape of the hull.
Totally agree with your choice of mini keels as apposed to dagger boards. Although boards would be great for max knots, too tempting to fly a hull.
Happy Anniversary and enjoy your well deserved break!
awesome video ty for sharing you decision in design of keel/ Daggerboards Boats coming along really well. Happy anniversary catch you in a couple weeks
Happy Aniversary and enjoy your new home!
Daggerboards so much better....just bought a 60 foot cat with daggerboards....prior sailed a bunch on fixed keels....the difference is astronomical....even for cruisers ...my opinion based on actually sailing both...
Lovin the technicalitys of the build videos👍
Live aboard a Gemini sailing cat. Has retractable center boards and retractable rudders. This arrangement allows the boat to be set on sand and dried out if necessary. Have never done this intentionally, but a couple of times accidentally. Being a shallow draft boat I regularly take it into skinny water (because I can) mostly to find anchorage space where others can't go. Consequently occasionally bump into things sticking up from the bottom. Luckily, never anything as solid as a large rock, and never while under sail (harder to stop). Each encounter resulted in a little noise and the board or rudder just pushing up out of the way. Never any permanent damage only scratched paint. I am a cruiser. The Gemini is NOT a racer, so it fits me perfectly.
Just my two cents😊
Good choice! Can’t wait to see this boat in the water!
Great video and Happy Anniversary!❤
Hope you both are having a great Anniversary & Birthday celebration! Safe travels to Thailand! Enjoy the adventure!
Good one guys , very informative.
Well having had to sail upwind beating into 6-8 foot seas and 25 knot winds for 14 hours due to a medical emergency, I can say I’m happy with our choice of daggerboards. Allowed is to make landfall on a single tack, vs spending 5 extra hours tacking back and forth. I do understand the advantages of keels though and it’s a good choice for many as well. I’d just get tired of all the questions at anchor of people asking where the daggerboards are : )
Not being a sailor, my first thought in a medical emergency would be to kick on both of the catamaran's engines. I'm assuming that would supersede any pro or con of daggerboard vs mini-keel?? I have no idea.
@@kjkayjay well it’s a good thought and could be the correct answer sometimes, but in this particular case a performance catamaran with daggerboards can sail faster than it could motor in the direction needed. For the most part performance cats sail much faster than they can motor unless it’s extremely light winds coming from the wrong angle. A lot depends on sea state as well, there’s no single correct answer, but it’s nice to have a boat with the ability to point as high as possible. Is it worth the extra money, complexity, and risk of damage, that’s for each person to decide for themselves…it’s all a series of compromises.
@@kirkb3473 I see, thanks for the reply.
Love all the details.
Good choice...because you made it! And congratulations 🎊 and happy anniversary to you both.
All the small details will make it a fantastic boat.
Happy Anniversary, Nikki and Jason.
I, for one, love all the innuendos. When you were caulking in New Zealand was the best lol.
I agree with your decision . I don’t much about sailing but I feel you made the right decision. Sailing to me is not about speed but comfort and enjoyment and enjoying your time on the water. Why is everyone in a hurry. A few minutes doesn’t matter. Freeway mentality. I really watching you guys.
You can always go for a massage to get rid of all the stress - Enjoy your wonderful trip and thank you for the great videos
Thank you for another informative video.
Excellente vido. I designed and built a 18' cat after high school (modeled after a photo of a 20' Tornado cat). I used my parents garage stud spacing for the hull bulkheads. Sailed it in Marina Del Rey and Mission Bay San Diego CA. I gained confidence in building anything in the future with this project. I went on to join the Peace Corps in Africa after taking a course in agricultural engineering.
Happy Anniversary! May you have many more! Simpler is usually better in terms of trade-offs, notably for operation and maintenance -- the larger costs of any boat. Blessings, S/V Windwalker.
Happy Anniversary ! I wish my boat was ready for launch so I could be your guide. Safe journeys from Montana !
That was really interesting...loved Erik's perspective. And for me personally, it was cool to see them using some fluid dynamics software I worked on a few years ago!
I’m just a full-time RVer here in a motorhome, but this process has been very interesting to watch. And there is a lot of correlation between boats and airplanes, which I am more familiar with. Thanks for the video.
Having no knowledge at all about this subject before watching your videos (which have been IMMENSELY informative and interesting; I really enjoy the instructional aspect of your channel) I remember your original motivation to go performance and I think that your moderation of that with the mini keels over dagger boards seems a well considered choice.
Enjoy your week off. We were camping with 14 other families over the 4th. I am so looking forward to seeing both of you on the water soon.
Good evaluation of the dagger board, etc.
Happy Anniversary!!! Our Anniversary is July 4th. Not sure what date yours is but, close enough! Love your videos and will always be a huge fan! May you live happily ever after!
I have rewatched some of your old vlogs ❤❤❤
I have watched the last two vlogs at least once a week. This one will be no different 😂😂😂 It is impossibly hard to wait for your boat to be finished!!! Whoooo hooooooo
Great information… very useful!
Been wondering about the dagger board thing. Thanks for covering
This was super interesting; I learned a lot - thanks so much for this and all your videos.
Glad it was helpful!
Australia II won the America's Cup in 83 had the first Winged Keel seeing that keel started my love for sailing.
Excited for you guys and IMO configuring is an essential fun part of the buying/building experience. I know nothing about dagger boards, and yet your choice seems perfectly logical. The only thing I am sure about daggers are that that require two huge threw-hull holes…and for me less “holes” in hull is better. 🤠
Happy Anniversary! Definately go to Koh Tao to go diving. It's so worth the journey!
This was a enlightening episode, I’ve always wondered about the difference and performance aspects. you folks did a great job laying it all out. Of course we all want to be the fastest and most efficient but we must consider reality. Cheers