Nick’s comparison with aviation is spot on. I have been flying 30 years. I am currently a Captain at a major airline. I started sailing in 2021. There is so much transfer from aviation & sailing. When I was a flight instructor many years ago a new student came to the school wanting to get his Private Pilot Certificate. He informed us that he had all ready purchased an airplane to learn on. He purchased a Mooney, the Porsche Special Edition. We quickly explained that was a very bad idea & he would progress more quickly starting off in a Cessna 172. He relented & learned in the 172. As soon as he earned his Private certificate he found an instructor to give him the 5 hours required MINIMUM training & high performance sign off. 6 months later he crashed & totaled his Mooney Porsche SE. Luckily he was only slightly injured. You can’t fake experience. Crawl-Walk-Run. Go out & get as much training as you can. Don’t bite off more than you can chew. When it all goes sideways I can assure you it’s never a beautiful crisp spring day. It’s a dark stormy night. Set yourself up for success.
I agree on the Crawl-Walk-Run idea, but I don't think Outremer is that high performance. I am not saying sailing is easy or safe by nature, but I don't think the skills needed to run a 42 or 55 foot boat are very different.
@@dajobra Yes I agree. It is the same skills. There is no difference. However if you lack experience & then you throw in added complexity & speed, the likelihood of a “negative outcome “ is much greater.
@@TheOKellys Yes. CRM came from disasters & people being killed & injured. It has saved untold lives likely. Checking our egos & accepting feedback on performance is critical to become safer & more capable. Boats & airplanes have limitations which are known & which you need to obey. You need to have your own personal limitations, which can change depending on experience, weather, the boat you are sailing, the crew you have etc.
I started windsurfing at 16, hit the hobie scene at 18, 24’ Santana at 25, 27’ Ericson at 30 to accomodate wife’s need for a proper head, at 37 we moved up to a N/M Morgan 36 to accomdate our 3 girls and my need to race, and at 57 we moved to probaably our last boat a Catalina 400. When I was young, wet and wild was great, but wife/kids, and a lifetime of sailing have left me wanting a roller everything, no teak topside, suger scoop, dual wheels, davits, and handsome full enclosure! Life is good in my 60’s!!! The best boat is what accomodates your needs at that stage of life! I loved this video, very affirming.
I really enjoyed this episode. The honestly and humble reflection on your boat search was so refreshing. As a life-long sailor I have been truly worried seeing so many folks recently buying way more boat then belong in. Also your background data, supporting clips and editing style make your videos really a joy to watch. Thanks
Well thank you. Yeh, it is pretty amazing how many people jump in the deep end. Not saying they aren't capable, but the ocean will humble hubris, 10-10.
I am a professional skipper and rigger and have about 360,000 sea miles, mostly multihulls under my keels and I have been watching your vids for some time, always good to get an intelligent perspective. Thanks for this. Now that I approach 70 years old my perspective is also modified, I have owned, sailed raced high performance multis from GBEs to ORMA60s and still love them. I regard the "high performance" market foisted upon us as difficult boats though many of their features I still find desirable, just that they have become unnecessarily complex, indeed most sailboats have. To me, the stock, or near stock, boat market has nothing to offer, I yearn for something like David Barker's "Sundreamer" for its performance and simplicity, as an example this thing is 43 years old and still one of the fastest boats out there, just very spartan which I like, keeps maintenance to a minimum. Perhaps I will build a Harryproa next, each to their own as you say
As I have enjoyed your adventures and comment also. Through you I have seen aboard a few vessels that have caught my fancy, my thanks to you.@@TheOKellys
I am 69 and used to build custom sailboats in Newport Beach California. Monohulls! Length on waterline determines your speed. Weight determines your comfort STARTING at around 55’. 55’ and then 65’ (not in between!) determined the best comfort at sea. Why? Because offshore the swells run in lengths that shorter boats would get tossed around and off length boats would be very uncomfortable. The notion that having a ‘performance’ boat is way overrated. Just stop and think about how much of your TOTAL time do you spend offshore? Very little. What a performance boat buys you in crossings more than screws you in living aboard. Love this channel folks. You are amazing. Keep up the PRAGMATIC advice for folks!
One of the wisest takes on this was from some older ex professional windsurfers or kite boarders. The couple said they wanted a boat big enough to bring their fast toys but be comfy for when you are in take it easy mode. They were giddy on their fountaine pajot, we'll go fast when we get there and we'll be well rested in between.
Many years ago circumnavigators found two roller furling headsails with wisker poles was the most efficient rig. Maybe add a self tacking roller furling staysail. The double head sails are easily trimmed and reefed for a wide range of wind speed and angle with almost as much efficiency as all the "balloon" type sails. Protected helms, dual electric windlasses, autopilot, refrigerators and watermakers provide redundancy. Many kws of solar and LIon batteries allow induction cooking and even sleeping area AC. Diesel propulsion still a must perhaps on a cat one could be a hybrid. Starlink a must. Radar and AIS 24/7 on a passage for watch keeping. Drop in spaces for big box store AC fridges. Reliability, redundancy, ease of use and comfort rule. Nowhere do I list speed which is mostly determined by waterline length. No sail drives, unprotected rudders or props or folding props. No dripless stuffing boxes. Get rid of the mantra, " Cruising is fixing your boat in exotic places".
Really one of the best sailing channel even you don‘t have a boat…kudos. Wynns and RR2 turned into commercial channel for manufacturer and other stuff…. Another question are you really a sailing couple or effectively a single hander with additional pair of hands? Sure not you 2 but I know many where the wife/partner wouldn’t even manage to anchor the vessel in a bit challenging places alone or really handele the boat alone if the other partner is out of operation…not taking about really severe weather. That’s why I joined several friends on crossing so a 2nd experienced person is onboard that handles the boat alone… Doing that on a performance cat a 3rd person is a must so you need a crew of 4 to safely do it depending on other people.
This is a really good point and question new owners need to answer honestly for themselves. I think that to really push a fast catamaran to its potential, at least two competent crew are needed for ocean passages, preferably three, and ideally four. It is all about the watch schedule and rest for the crew. You go with less crew and you simply must throttle back to stay safe and rested. Sleep deprivation is a real consideration.
Another well thought out and educational discussion. Thank you for continuing to bring a little bit of sanity to would-be boat owners and/or cruisers as I really believe many of them can use it! One thing i would offer regarding boats that sail well to weather and are generally a bit lighter is that a faster boat can always be slowed down and sailed more conservatively, but a slow boat will always be slow no matter what you do. One thing i do take exception with is this idea of having to motor when the winds die down. I will take 2-3 knots under sail any day over motoring and for me that is the true strength of a performance oriented cat that is lighter by design and kept lighter by its owners. But then again, we are not on a schedule to deliver our boat to a show. Good luck with your search!
Thank you for finally saying what I have been feeling for several years now. I have been waiting for somebody to make this point and you did it fairly and comprehensively. For me, it started while I was looking for a new live aboard catamaran and had an opportunity to help my friend sail a brand new full carbon HH 50 from Mexico to Hawaii and realized how much extra work, skill, stress, and quite frankly, discomfort went along with the additional speed. And, by the way, we didn't actually average the speed we were expecting even though we were all experienced offshore racers. I ended up with a heavier and safer catamaran, and I accept the trade-off between the stress, safety and cost and the marginally lower average speed. More than anything, I want pleasure from sailing and I'm willing to give up those few moments of sheer thrill and exhilaration when the conditions are perfect and the boat can do 15 knots.
Yep. Exactly. See, this is why real open ocean experience on these faster boats is so important. You look at the polars on your go-fast boat, you dream of the endless 240 or even 300 mile days and then you see (and feel) what it takes to do that and you re-think your priorities.
Wow quality video, so authentic. You may not see the direct impact but this will definitely influence future boat owners & non performance cat companies will reference it forever
Very good insights here. Everyone looks for the right boat for them as a person/couple/family. Ideally for us, and I think you, there is a boat with the performance level, safety and comfort to cover most of our requirements. Safety is top of the list and speed and the upwind ability of a boat adds to that when you are running from or to something. Daggerboards offer just as much added performance when running down wind as they are removed from the water and with them the drag that comes with fixed keels. Having them gives you the ability to sail better upwind when and if you need to as well. Waterline is important but how much extra do you need or want to pay for as a couple or single hander? You pay for the added length continually as long as you own the boat, as you know. Finding the right balance and compromise is the challenge for all of us. Good luck!😅
Firstly, you've pretty much nailed making a video without a boat which, for a sailing channel, is a preeeettty big ask. Secondly, you confirmed we got the right boat (Leopard 62) Thirdly, the personal growth is evident, I actually enjoy your channel a lot more. Hope you find a perfect for you boat soon, if you haven't already
Well, let me tell you something about Cowboys. And you need to listen... Every cowboy only owns one great horse in his life and no matter how many horses he rides, it's never as good or never means as much to him.As that one great horse... Now you talk to any old real old cowboy , and I'm they'll tell. you ..this damn straight true.. .. You may keep trying to find another boat.That you're fall in love with , but you won't , coz.it'll never match up to -- ( need I say it ?? ).. They say The biker doesn't pick the bike ,, that the bike picks the biker.. That the cowboy doesn't pick the horse. The horse picks the cowboy. You can analyze all you want.. But when you pass by the right boat .,,,, -- The boat it will let you know..
While my wife and I were watching your content I was composing a comment concerning middle of the road boats, when I stopped and thought to myself " those two have more than enough miles to KNOW the compromises they feel best about.) Soon as I finished the thought, you went into everyone DO YOU. We loved this episode, and your content.
Does the crew match the boat. That is so spot on and a question every potential owner should be asking themselves regardless of pleasure boat they want to buy. Great stuff!
Still the most informative AND entertaining boat channel on TH-cam!!! I don't know why I'm surprised, again; but this was top notch. Thank you for the great content.
Thanks for voicing what we have been thinking for years. Safety, then comfort and finally performance is how we rank our needs. Sleep and rest are #1 priority for us offshore. Performance even comes after liveability at anchor as we are anchored 90% of the time. Thanks for the video guys ❤
So Nick I imagine now you have understand what I told you all those year back in St Augustine when you come out of the water with your Leopard 46 and next to us on the hard with our Outremer 55. The best boat is the one with the least compromises for you. So good luck to the 2 of you looking and your best compromise. It could be a cat a mono an RV or a cabin were ever , but what ever that is enjoy.
Honestly, this journey you have taken us on has been just as cool/interesting to watch as your sailing videos. I think I have learned a lot from you. This video was done so well too. Loved the solitaire on the computer in front of Megan.
Finally you agree with me. I have always said that preformance anything yacht works the best for weekend weekend/coastal cruisers. Allowing you to get to and from somewhere as fast as possible maximising your time where you want to be. When you are cruising the world this schedual becomes less important
Yep, every boat is a compromise in some way and finding the right match between boat and crew is the secret sauce. I love day sailing on a very cutting edge high performance boat but for crossing oceans, I would choose a performance-cruiser somewhere in the Seawind category. A well performing sailor's boat with enough creature comfort, less intense performance envelope, and at a lower production cost. I would choose fixed keels for rudder protection and a rig that can easily be handled with a crew of 2. Best wishes guys!
Two directions you were heading I didn't agree with, the Outremer deal and the "performance at all cost" orientation, I have had race multi hulls, cruisers and compromise boats. I have 100% confidence in your process to get this right.
Agree. As a redhead, there is no way in hell my boat will have an exposed helm or cockpit. Yes you can cover up like she showed and I do when needed, but do you really want to live like that on your home?
You are headed toward a performance mono. I had raced monos for decades, and also raced a Hobie Cat for 10 years. Great thrills, but also many capsizes. When it came time to buy a boat to cruise around the world, I went with a performance mono. It didn't have what I call the pucker factor when the weather is rough and you know that one mistake will end your adventure. It was also faster on passages than similar length catamarans because when the autopilot drives the boat 99% of the time, you have to sail a cat very conservatively. Best of all, the mono cost a fraction of what a cat does.
For many owners the main reason they want a ‘performance’ lightweight catamaran is for the ability to sail in light winds under 10 knots and use the engine much less. Many owners probably get over the buzz to maximise speed and just want to sail comfortably, they have that choice. There also the motion of the boat to consider, less hobby horsing and a more graceful motion of a lighter performance cat must be an important benefit to owners too.
I think it really depends on where you want to sail. An area with a lot of variable winds...mid-latitudes, or sailing areas where the distances aren't that long like the Med...the fast, light boats have a huge advantage in my mind. Whether or not a light catamaran is "graceful" in its motion....well, I think that's buying into the marketing buzz...it's hard to make broad statements like that, but light boats often (in our experience) have much sharper, quicker motion. It is going to be different depending on the particular design and displacement.
TH-cam.com/@CatGreatcircle please tell us how much you used you engine during ocean crossings on your current circumnavigation on your Outremer 55. It’s impressive and a compelling case.
Greatly appreciated. This was a question I was searching for an answer to. I think you nailed it that the true experience of the boat doesn’t equate to the speed, and how speed often comes with its own stress. Thank you!
I don't have a boat yet. I'm just dreaming. I'm learning a profession that will allow me to work remotely, and I'm diving into the world of 'choosing the first boat' (it will most likely be a catamaran for the project). Thank you very much for this video. Even without experience, I came to the same conclusions. Wishing you success. I look forward to following your adventures.
Absolutely Brilliant Video! Well done, you guys are a real triple-threat performance-couple (Sailors, educators & content creators). Very informative & entertaining. And yeah, I was pretty pleased to see that Balance ignited your desire for performance 🔥 yeahaa .... but more importantly, that Balance hit the middle of the triangle. Right on target! Lifestyle and comfort should not be compromised by performance. 🌴⛵😎
Spot on! The crew must be happy and healthy onboard and that starts with good seamanship and boat handling skills. The right boat is better than the fastest boat. And a “production” cat can be the right boat! In fact, not all production cats are slow and heavy and with the right sailors and a “complete” set of sails you can go “fast” but the getting there isn’t to be missed out on! You’ll find the right boat and I’m glad you are still enjoying the adventure along the way!
As an interested and potential future sailor, I can say, thank you! We took a quick sailing lesson recently and will be taking more this summer. Then its a small starter boat before anything larger and live aboard. Its more expensive on paper but I think the experience makes all the difference. Point in fact, we froze during training, in mexico, because we underestimated the wind chill on the water. Simply but telling experience.
Thanks for the excellent commentary. One aspect that is seldom mentioned is "performance at anchor". It is easy to compare the sailing performance polars of various boats and of course that is useful. But let's face it, how much time do we spend sailing vs time spent at anchor? For us, it is probably 90% anchored and 10% sailing. And some boats perform much better at anchor than others. Are the big, heavy production boats better at anchor when the swell rolls around the headland? Or are the lightweight, skinny hulls better? That would be an interesting comparison.
Great video. I've been of this mindset all along, but it is a personal choice so never commented. Speed is a safety asset because the longer you are on the water the more the odds the forecast doesn't hold up. Get there faster and you will probably see what was forecast. The alternative is that when things do get snotty, I'd much rather be on a heavy, sturdy boat. Performance boats are like a fancy sports car. Fun to go drive for a while, but if you want to drive more than a few hours you'd rather be in the big comfy sedan or SUV. Dagger boards are one more thing to get fouled up. There are enough systems to worry about!
Thank you so much. You helped me - bluewater sailing on an aluminium monohull and missing sometimes the speed - to dig much deeper into the performance catamaran thing. Top information on a professional-like level!
Hey guys, it was interesting to see where the HH-OC fell on your chart. I am a bit in love with the HH-OC 44 the Wynns have. I think it would make a great second boat. Plenty of time to learn to sail while they build one for you.
@soloflight75 I hope things work out for you. Unless I hit the lottery, I'll never own that cat. Even then, I would need to learn to sail first. I'm just living vicariously through TH-cam, right now.
Great video. As a performance cat owner with over 100,000 ocean miles in monohulls I am still learning how to sail my catamaran - after 4 years. I have met a number of inexperienced sailing couples who have bought performance cats and are feeling out of their depth and some even thinking of reverting to a monohull. These boats are a handful and as you say you really need to know what you are doing before you take them out in a blow.
Having sailed racing boats through to heavy cruisers both mono hull and multi hull my feeling is as I get older that I'd rather be on a boat that I can sail more than motor. So for me that means more performance orientated. I can always sail a fast boat slower and in light winds. The same cannot be said for the heavier slower boat. You do you.
Great video. I had a performance 2015 46ft mono for 3 years, Med, Caribbean, East Coast USA - I remember great upwind sailing throughout the voyage and benefit of good down furler asymetric 180 sq m. Couple 90% of time and were lucky survived no major mishap - 30 knot squall damaged code zero when did bad furl on way to Bermuda. But when BIG sails go wrong need crew (Vagabonde losing staysail tack/ your Outremer voyage). We like performance so going more Cat 42 - 45ft (12.5m) - KISS, but with daggerboards! key light boat for smaller sails so easier sail handling for when we furl badly!!! Outremer 45 / Dazcat / Schionning / OC42 / Catana 42/431 (heavier). Hope you get your boat soon.................
Performance anxiety 😂 now that was hilarious. As someone who has been following you guys for years very accurate in your description of what works, what doesn't and how you can get in over your head. Love you guys
One of my « not for me » cat designs, are those that have their helm stations located on the stern of each hull. I hate that design as it exposes the helmsman to the weather and it is hard to gauge what’s going on on the diagonally opposed bow.
The reason there are so many different boats available is that none of them tick all the boxes. I have a 14ft monohull dinghy for 'proper sailing', a fifteen foot trimaran for pretending I'm in an 18ft Skiff, a 22ft cruiser for occasional sleepovers and day sdailing without the constant threat of capsize and access to a Cessna 152 for going a bit further afield. Charter boats up to about forty feet for three weeks a year fill in some of the gaps but I still feel I could use three or four more boats to tick all the boxes. a waterfront house somewhere nice with its own slip and a boathouse containing a few small boats would tick most of the boxes!
As i said on Facebook - Video perfection. Nick's perfect summing up of the issues. The use of the psychiatrists couch. And the teaser of a possible boat. And for those with doubts about Nick's comments watch Ruby rose getting to grips with their new seawind, via a dragging anchor, and a partly sunk dingy!
Great video Nick and Megan - I'm with you on this ! the other thing of course is 'collision' - with a whale or a submerged object - fishing fads and more ! I'm seeing more and more stuff floating in the oceans and going fast could come at a heavy cost !
Really enjoyed the set up in this video! When we were buying our first boat, our broker, Phillip Berman of Balance and The Multihull Company asked three critical questions: what's your sailing agenda, what's your experience, do you have an exit. These three questions and answers will dictate the boat. When we answered these questions honestly, our budget, and location wanted to launch from, it really narrowed it down to about 6 boats. And from there condition of the boat narrowed it down to about 3. This really helped us focus and kick start our adventure in a positive direction.
Just found the channel, very high production quality on the video! Slow and secure is good, it's nice to know that the ship can push through harsher environments. Which also grands more exotic places to explore. And about speed: "Some people sail with the intention of getting away from the ocean as fast as possible". If I wanna go fast, I would fly a passenger plane. Which would be fast and boring, because speed is relative. It's about the thrill of speed, not the actual numbers on the speedometer.
Such a creative way to present this topic. Throughly enjoyed it. I’m a MV boater, but have learned a LOT about the sailing, and boating in general, from you both.
Excellent and honest video! Been watching you folks for several years. Don’t get sucked into the need for speed! Look for comfort and safety! We also watch several of the other TH-cam catamaran Channels and we are not seeing those that went with High Performance absolutely loving it. It is a different beast altogether and one that I don’t think is suitable for many folks. We don’t have a Catamaran but if I was to buy one I would look real hard at the Antares Boats. Best of luck to you!
I keep coming back to this video because I love the music and video that runs while you're sampling all those gorgeous cats. Also a lot of it is hilarious.
Dear O'Kelly's, Enjoying all your content. It is a lot of fun analyzing all the trade offs involved in selecting the "right" boat. A good compromise might be to decide you don't need to cross oceans. If you end up not desiring to cross oceans then the boat selection becomes a lot easier and much less expensive. With the money you save by deciding to not cross oceans you can get a "less is more" type house ashore or base an RV some where that compliments the cruising area you decide to base the new boat or just "airbnb it" when you return home to Oregon when you want a break from living on a boat and want to spend time with established friends and family. Or "airbnb it" when you travel away from the boat by airplane across oceans. Doing as described above is my approach so, obviously, I am projecting what I do which may not fit you guys. To do the above you can pick a cruising ground then pick a boat well suited to that cruising ground. For example if you pick a cruising area with trade winds then you don't have to allocate so much of your budget to a boat that sails well in light wind, points well or has great performance in general. If you pick a cruising area with less dependable wind and a lot of light wind a good option is go with hybrid aux power so you can reduce the time you have to run an ICE, go with a boat that points well and performs well in light wind. If you decide to not cross oceans you can allocate more of your budget for a new boat to comfort while anchored versus all that is required to to safely cross oceans at a reasonable pace. As you pointed out if do decide to cross oceans following the trade winds and sailing downwind most of the time the difference in speed between a performance versus non performance going down wind is not that great. What about doing a deal with a charter company where the charter company charters the boat during the high season and you get the use of the boat the other 7-8 months? I think the math works well for that with a boat based in Croatia. Then for 4-5 months you can go wherever you want by airplane including spending time in Oregon.
Great video with your Psych visit generating a smile. I am so glad you have come to many of the conclusions you have. The video you referenced with all the data regarding passages and times taken is well worth watching. I first saw it some years ago and it still makes sense today, especially today. Many of the people I know who are attracted to the high performance cats also resent being overtaken on the freeway. If you look at the experience of people like Ben and Ashley from Sailing Nahoa (who actually make passages across oceans) they have come to many of the same conclusions, which are reflected in their new Nahoa 55 boat build/design. Either way I hope you can find a boat you will be comfortable in at anchor (which will be 95% of the time) and can make passage safely and at a reasonable speed. Like many I would like to see you back on a boat making great content which is valuable to many. All the best!
Excellent episode! You both made a lot of great observations. For a full time liveabord catamaran, speed performance would be one of the last item on my list for the same reasons you pointed out. For me the top priority would be safety & how practical the boat is in terms of maintenance, operation & redundancy of the systems on board. An aluminium catamaran like the Garcia ExploCat 52 would be my top pick.
The best and an enjoyably unique walk through of the yachting market….thanks for being real and logical about yr abilities and needs. So we will see you buying a gun boat next month😂
What a creative video! So informative yet entertaining. It was also spot on as I digest and narrow our own search for our first boat. Thanks for this. Your warnings for newbies taking on too much was so pertinent.
I loved this video - the humor (solitaire playing psychiatrist, lol!), the candor, & the thought process. My husband and I went through this 25 years ago. Only we never ended up buying another boat. (Lots of other factors - health, money, new hobbies.) But I don't think we even realized our own process until seeing yours, so extra thanks. That Windelo 50 is looking more and more intriguing, but I'd like to see how well they're made. I love following your journey & seeing where the path takes you. And if Nick needs another appointment with the therapist, make sure to share when the doctor is in. 😂
As a fellow pilot (with 5,000 hours on the ERJ175) I cannot agree more with you on the parallelism between people jumping on a Bonanza (or Vision jet today) and the performance boats. You got to do your learning in rough conditions and gain experience there with a less performance boat so you understand the tradeoffs... I am very interested to see what will happen over the next 24 months with all these performance boats like LaVagabonde, Gone with the Winns, Ruby Rose, etc...
Congratulations to an entertaining, funny, insightful video! You address many points that we are mulling over and over as well. My wife Kathy and I live on a 2020 Leopard 45 and we love the liveability and the space on board. However we would love to have a bit of extra speed and a better sailplan. Downwind sailing in up ton 20-23 kts True Wind Speed is good thanks to our Oxley Spinnaker, but upwind tacking is inefficient and the hobby-horsing is making it no fun at all. So we think about a faster boat which also has some ability to tack upwind from time to time. December 2023 we did our second east-west Atlantic crossing 2760nm in 21 days, averaging 5,5 kts. Maybe in a Outremer 52 we would have done 7,5kts? In such a case we would have had 15 days instead of 21. Big difference. BUT: Over the last 3 years we lived 80% on board and made aprox 15'000 nautical miles with an average of 5,8 kts, giving us roughly 2590 hrs underway, which equals around 12% of the total time we were on board. True, the range of destination reachable in a daytrip changes significantly, but how important is ist? We are still undecided, maybe we would travel more with a faster boat, because it's more fun... ;-) However, the market may change, and maybe you are right, Nick, and some of the first time boat owners who have chosen a perfomance cat may come to the conclusion they are in over their heads and put them on the market. Meanwhile I really hope you find a boat, at least one that is good to live the life on the water even if maybe not the fastest one out there... :-) Would love to meet you again!
Hey Silvio! Firstly, you are in a great position to make the decision. You have the miles in the "slow" boat, so when you go for a long ride in the "fast" boat, hopefully in the ocean, you can see where/if you'll really be gaining big miles because those faster average speeds are dependent on your taste/style/capabilities in the conditions you often sail in. Handling an Oxley in 20-23 at 170T on your L45 is a different attention/stress level than handling an asym on a fast boat at 135T. And you don't really know the difference in VMG until you do it. You might be impressed or you might be, meh. You don't know until you try. Yes, hope we cross paths again!
Each one of us is different and each one must find the boat that suits them. I come from racing, and for me entertainment, even when I'm in cruising mode, is looking for the maximum speed of the boat, much more than the destination. My best memories are sailing with big winds and waves, taking the boat in a continuous planing with the maximum amount of sail possible. The very best was Megan playing solitaire! Love you guys.
this is really interesting and think about this a lot. When there is low wind you want a fast boat, but when the wind\sea is high you need a safe boat -the lack of speed is not the issue. How do you balance both? We charter, so the bottom of the pyramid, and always have small factory sails -we would get a lot of perf out of a proper rig alone vs getting into a high perf boat. I really just need an efficient low wind sail! And most important part! danger always shows up when the weather is not nice - 100% of the time! You need to test a boat out in rough conditions or you dont know the boat.
In my experience my 2011 Nautitech 441 is a performance cruiser. At 13 tons with 800l of water, dinghy and provision it is pleasingly fast. In 12kts on a reach we sail at 7.5kts. With 20 kts in the eastern Caribbean we average 9.5kts often doing 10-11 between Islands and 7.5 in the lee
I really enjoyed this film. I also loved your book ‘getting her on board’!! Thanks you two for sharing so much with us all. I have been debating for 3 years which sailing cat to get and how to fund buying it. All the cats I like are so expensive! Forget the Outremer 51 or 52, even a FP Astra 42 is the price of a small house! But I had an epiphany at the end of a weeks sailing course last year on a 42 foot sailing cat in narly rough weather. Despite loving sailing and having done tons of dinghy sailing, 500 sea miles on sailing cats and 1500 miles on my 60ft classic motorboat, I decided after that course was what I loved about boats was being on the ocean in beautiful places. That was more important than whether it had sails or not! I want to explore the Med for a few years, not cross large oceans, so a classic motorboat like a Grand Banks Classic or a really old Fleming 55 is a better fit for me. Less stressful. Also my partner is not a sailing or boat person, so a motorboat is easier to learn the ropes on, as it has a lot less ropes! Other YT boaters have even speculated that it’s cheaper to run a displacement motorboat than a sailing boat, which has sails and rigging to maintain, on top of engines and gen sets. Also in the Med in the summer, there is not a lot of wind, Motor Every Day MED, so might as well have a boat without sails. Anyway, thanks again. Different stokes for different folks. No right or wrong. Just what feels best to have great adventures with the least stress and risks. That’s my goal. Love from me in the UK. Xx
@@TheOKellys you should both have your own Netflix series. You are very watchable!! Thanks again for the good advice. And for the cost… BOAT Bring On Another Thousand 😱🤦♂️
I have been following you for a long time and I always enjoyed your TH-cam videos. I learn a lot and now I am a happy owner of a 48L Leopard. Your last video maybe a good realisation that the boat is not what matter. It is the project and what you experience with it. Such as discovery, friend, reaching a goal and living. Safe sailing
Well Nick. I feel your pain. You had to take this journey to be assured contentment with whatever your final decision. Y'all should be excited to now realize that an entirely new market of cruising boats are awaiting your next two years of review videos! ha! For me, with a wife that isn't really a sailor, nor historically an outdoors girl, it was a matter of buy-in, so comfort was key. Oh she says we really don't need all the air conditioning and such, but my crystal ball says different. So the 2400Ah @ 24V Victron Lithium, 3300W Solar, Arco Zues Smart Regulators, 3 inverter/variable speed air units, convection, 5 in 1 electric oven, etc., were my top priority. All but the galley appliances and ice maker run directly off of the 24V house bank, even the water heaters. (instruments are 12V). That said, this little Leopard 42 did impress me a bit this past weekend in Tampa Bay. Granted, a fairly flat seaway, but with heavy factory production sails, she reached 9.3 SOG at around 70 degrees in 18 knots. So I'm a pretty happy, and comfortable, sailor. I'd be happy to talk with you about your future boat looking anxiety, but unfortunately, "I'm out of time!" Get a boat, man. 🤣
Nick, I can so relate. As an owner of an outremer 45 we (a typical couple) had almost the same experiences when we bought our boat 2 years ago. Our first catamaran and we had to sail it within 11 days after delivery from the yard in France to Turkey for some specific reasons. So we hired a delivery skipper and crew to help us or more precisely to get the boat there. And due the time pressure and the rough weather in March it was quite a scary beginning for us. We alone would have done it much, much slower🙂. However, after more than 11.000 NM, crossing the Med twice, the Atlantic once and the Caribbean twice my takeaways are the follows: Would I buy this boat again, yes definitely and without any question. Why? You don‘t have to go fast, but you can when it is fun. In rougher conditions it is for us very reassuring to have a boat that is build for offshore use and not primarily for coastal cruising. You feel it every mile. Much less or almost no slamming, less windage, a very sound and reliable reefing system etc. And we love it - due to the speed advantage - to be often the first newcomer in a bay where we then can pick one of the best and safest spots🙂. So, in summary, the 45 (which is actually 48 ft long) is for us as couple the best compromise of space and the feeling that we can handle it. Not just in coastal areas but also offshore.
I have not owned a sailing boat myself before, so did only chartering in the Med and Baltic sea. However, I took also part in the Clipper around the world race for two month and the 4 week training required before to prepare myself somewhat better. Since I did the Australien leg I also took part in the Sydney Hobart Yacht Race and saw there and on another race quite a lot of heavy weather in the Southern Ocean. This really extended my comfort zone🙂. In total I had sailed around 7000 NM before I got my outremer45. Best, Bent
Definitely something to ponder... We crossed the North Atlantic as husband and wife crew of only 2 headed to the Med in our monohull but we took our sweet time...
personally I’m a massive fan of the up and coming excess catamarans. The 11 is an outstanding vessel and the 14 ticks all the boxes-- both make repairs completely accessible , while still being somewhat “affordable” compared to others
Part of the journey is always self-discovery. Sometimes paradigm shifts come full circle and that's OK. I would stipulate that speed on passage is heavily dependent on the crew's ability to safely maximize the potential of their boat on average, not for remote periods. Good vid.
Amen. I return to Colorado today after a winter in the windward islands. Did you mention your light performance boat will soon be loaded up and won't be so light anymore?
Thank you … learning from you is we want a 45 foot fountains pajot a put some performance upgrades on it like props better sails an such … do you agree ????
There's a sailing channel "bums on a boat" - maye you can rename yours as bums without a boat! - genius business model - having a very good sailing channel without the maintenance & running costs of a big cat. (joking) Actually really like the videos. Fair winds!
Hi Nick, how are you? To me, the issue is not so much centered on "performance or not performance" but on the actual sailing ability of catamarans, and in all of this, daggerboards are a central concept. Without them, the ability of a catamaran to push beyond the abeam is really reduced. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to sail with the wind at the stern, and the ability of any boat to be able to sail in any direction, thus including upwind, is crucial. All too often in the Mediterranean I came across catamarans that were motoring because of their total inability to sail when the apparent wind was less than 80 to 90 degrees. When you sail on a performance catamaran, you are the one who chooses whether to go fast or not (depending on how much sail area you have exposed) and thus, by implication, your stress level as well. I've seen you at the helm of the Outremer 55, you love to go fast, if you didn't want to do that it would have been enough to take an extra reef to the mainsail. :-))) That is why more than talking about "performance or not performance," I would have liked to see you address the perhaps even thorny topic of "catamarans that sail vs. catamarans that don't." Fair wind Luca
We never said that light air performance or upwind performance wasn't important. For us, it seems to be coming clear that the cost for those capabilities, at least for the kind cruising we intend to do is not worth the extra money spent. We are nervous about overspending into a part of the market that we have doubts about. If we could find a true performance boat that fit out needs and budget that we were confident in the future value of, we would buy it.
Cool Video...what i would be interested in hearing more about is how much less motoring is it possible to have with a performance cruiser? Is it a big diiference, not so big? Does it save alot of money in fuel? Those are the things that appeal to me more about performance boats.
Brilliant summary im glad I have learnt in a production cat as 5 years in im still not sure I could or want to handle the stress of a performance cat under load.
On the subject of exposed aft helm positions, they mark the boat as a coastal cruising weekend racer. They are not a long term live aboard open ocean boat. You can do it but it won't be pleasant.
Ahhhhhh FINALLY, you've woken up from your dream time ....Welcome Back...Now lets get you into a Proper Comfortable Cruising off grid 48 - 58ft CAT with all the bibs & bobs you hearts desire.... COMFORT+++ moderate - Ok performance... 58 is my Lucky No.😊👍cheers
I started following your channel after watching your mono vs cat video. I thought it was well reasoned and informative. We spent 10 years aboard our Amel ketch, but age, seasickness, and grandkids pushed us in to the Cat. We met very few performance Cats cruising, and really only one couple truly qualified to sail one-both open ocean world wide racers. Even they had to slow things down for their son. I think you have come to a rational decision on helm position-no one I know really spends a great deal of time at the helm truly sailing, but many enjoy the view from a raised position. If we really spent every minute at the helm, an autopilot would be superfluous. I wish you luck in continuing your journey. I don’t mean this in an ugly way, but I don’t think a performance Cat would have saved you a year’s time. Fair winds.
Nick’s comparison with aviation is spot on. I have been flying 30 years. I am currently a Captain at a major airline. I started sailing in 2021. There is so much transfer from aviation & sailing. When I was a flight instructor many years ago a new student came to the school wanting to get his Private Pilot Certificate. He informed us that he had all ready purchased an airplane to learn on. He purchased a Mooney, the Porsche Special Edition. We quickly explained that was a very bad idea & he would progress more quickly starting off in a Cessna 172. He relented & learned in the 172. As soon as he earned his Private certificate he found an instructor to give him the 5 hours required MINIMUM training & high performance sign off. 6 months later he crashed & totaled his Mooney Porsche SE. Luckily he was only slightly injured. You can’t fake experience. Crawl-Walk-Run. Go out & get as much training as you can. Don’t bite off more than you can chew. When it all goes sideways I can assure you it’s never a beautiful crisp spring day. It’s a dark stormy night. Set yourself up for success.
I agree on the Crawl-Walk-Run idea, but I don't think Outremer is that high performance. I am not saying sailing is easy or safe by nature, but I don't think the skills needed to run a 42 or 55 foot boat are very different.
That's a sad story. Yes, a lot of parallels flying and sailing. I think CRM training would go a long way on a boat...
A famous example is Jenny Blalock. Passed her exam, barely. Bought a superfast "slippery" plane. Crashed & died.
@@dajobra
Yes I agree. It is the same skills. There is no difference. However if you lack experience & then you throw in added complexity & speed, the likelihood of a “negative outcome “ is much greater.
@@TheOKellys
Yes. CRM came from disasters & people being killed & injured. It has saved untold lives likely. Checking our egos & accepting feedback on performance is critical to become safer & more capable.
Boats & airplanes have limitations which are known & which you need to obey. You need to have your own personal limitations, which can change depending on experience, weather, the boat you are sailing, the crew you have etc.
“Does the crew match the boat” is a great statement about so many things. Very insightful
Megan as Psychiatrist playing solitaire is hysterical!!
Yep, I almost spit coffee at my screen.
Yeah, nice touch on the solitaire.
We were howling. And then when she cut him off and said to schedule more time... funny stuff.
Love the solitaire, reminds me of The Office
It’s so Megan
I started windsurfing at 16, hit the hobie scene at 18, 24’ Santana at 25, 27’ Ericson at 30 to accomodate wife’s need for a proper head, at 37 we moved up to a N/M Morgan 36 to accomdate our 3 girls and my need to race, and at 57 we moved to probaably our last boat a Catalina 400. When I was young, wet and wild was great, but wife/kids, and a lifetime of sailing have left me wanting a roller everything, no teak topside, suger scoop, dual wheels, davits, and handsome full enclosure! Life is good in my 60’s!!! The best boat is what accomodates your needs at that stage of life! I loved this video, very affirming.
Never say last boat….lol
I really enjoyed this episode. The honestly and humble reflection on your boat search was so refreshing. As a life-long sailor I have been truly worried seeing so many folks recently buying way more boat then belong in. Also your background data, supporting clips and editing style make your videos really a joy to watch. Thanks
Well thank you. Yeh, it is pretty amazing how many people jump in the deep end. Not saying they aren't capable, but the ocean will humble hubris, 10-10.
@@TheOKellys I met a guy in Martinique a year ago with his family sailing on their new boat. This was his first sailboat, an Outremer 5X.
I am a professional skipper and rigger and have about 360,000 sea miles, mostly multihulls under my keels and I have been watching your vids for some time, always good to get an intelligent perspective. Thanks for this. Now that I approach 70 years old my perspective is also modified, I have owned, sailed raced high performance multis from GBEs to ORMA60s and still love them. I regard the "high performance" market foisted upon us as difficult boats though many of their features I still find desirable, just that they have become unnecessarily complex, indeed most sailboats have. To me, the stock, or near stock, boat market has nothing to offer, I yearn for something like David Barker's "Sundreamer" for its performance and simplicity, as an example this thing is 43 years old and still one of the fastest boats out there, just very spartan which I like, keeps maintenance to a minimum. Perhaps I will build a Harryproa next, each to their own as you say
Wow, thank you for the kind words. It means a lot from someone with your experience. Appreciate it.
As I have enjoyed your adventures and comment also. Through you I have seen aboard a few vessels that have caught my fancy, my thanks to you.@@TheOKellys
I am 69 and used to build custom sailboats in Newport Beach California. Monohulls! Length on waterline determines your speed. Weight determines your comfort STARTING at around 55’. 55’ and then 65’ (not in between!) determined the best comfort at sea. Why? Because offshore the swells run in lengths that shorter boats would get tossed around and off length boats would be very uncomfortable. The notion that having a ‘performance’ boat is way overrated. Just stop and think about how much of your TOTAL time do you spend offshore? Very little. What a performance boat buys you in crossings more than screws you in living aboard. Love this channel folks. You are amazing. Keep up the PRAGMATIC advice for folks!
One of the wisest takes on this was from some older ex professional windsurfers or kite boarders. The couple said they wanted a boat big enough to bring their fast toys but be comfy for when you are in take it easy mode. They were giddy on their fountaine pajot, we'll go fast when we get there and we'll be well rested in between.
Many years ago circumnavigators found two roller furling headsails with wisker poles was the most efficient rig. Maybe add a self tacking roller furling staysail. The double head sails are easily trimmed and reefed for a wide range of wind speed and angle with almost as much efficiency as all the "balloon" type sails. Protected helms, dual electric windlasses, autopilot, refrigerators and watermakers provide redundancy. Many kws of solar and LIon batteries allow induction cooking and even sleeping area AC. Diesel propulsion still a must perhaps on a cat one could be a hybrid. Starlink a must. Radar and AIS 24/7 on a passage for watch keeping. Drop in spaces for big box store AC fridges. Reliability, redundancy, ease of use and comfort rule. Nowhere do I list speed which is mostly determined by waterline length. No sail drives, unprotected rudders or props or folding props. No dripless stuffing boxes. Get rid of the mantra, " Cruising is fixing your boat in exotic places".
Love the transparency of the journey. It mirrors what my husband and I are doing as we look for our first boat.
Really one of the best sailing channel even you don‘t have a boat…kudos. Wynns and RR2 turned into commercial channel for manufacturer and other stuff….
Another question are you really a sailing couple or effectively a single hander with additional pair of hands? Sure not you 2 but I know many where the wife/partner wouldn’t even manage to anchor the vessel in a bit challenging places alone or really handele the boat alone if the other partner is out of operation…not taking about really severe weather. That’s why I joined several friends on crossing so a 2nd experienced person is onboard that handles the boat alone…
Doing that on a performance cat a 3rd person is a must so you need a crew of 4 to safely do it depending on other people.
This is a really good point and question new owners need to answer honestly for themselves. I think that to really push a fast catamaran to its potential, at least two competent crew are needed for ocean passages, preferably three, and ideally four. It is all about the watch schedule and rest for the crew. You go with less crew and you simply must throttle back to stay safe and rested. Sleep deprivation is a real consideration.
Another well thought out and educational discussion. Thank you for continuing to bring a little bit of sanity to would-be boat owners and/or cruisers as I really believe many of them can use it! One thing i would offer regarding boats that sail well to weather and are generally a bit lighter is that a faster boat can always be slowed down and sailed more conservatively, but a slow boat will always be slow no matter what you do. One thing i do take exception with is this idea of having to motor when the winds die down. I will take 2-3 knots under sail any day over motoring and for me that is the true strength of a performance oriented cat that is lighter by design and kept lighter by its owners. But then again, we are not on a schedule to deliver our boat to a show. Good luck with your search!
Thank you for finally saying what I have been feeling for several years now. I have been waiting for somebody to make this point and you did it fairly and comprehensively. For me, it started while I was looking for a new live aboard catamaran and had an opportunity to help my friend sail a brand new full carbon HH 50 from Mexico to Hawaii and realized how much extra work, skill, stress, and quite frankly, discomfort went along with the additional speed. And, by the way, we didn't actually average the speed we were expecting even though we were all experienced offshore racers. I ended up with a heavier and safer catamaran, and I accept the trade-off between the stress, safety and cost and the marginally lower average speed. More than anything, I want pleasure from sailing and I'm willing to give up those few moments of sheer thrill and exhilaration when the conditions are perfect and the boat can do 15 knots.
Yep. Exactly. See, this is why real open ocean experience on these faster boats is so important. You look at the polars on your go-fast boat, you dream of the endless 240 or even 300 mile days and then you see (and feel) what it takes to do that and you re-think your priorities.
To sum it up, you gained “Clarity” in who you are as sailors, what excites you about sailing combined with type of boat that ultimately suits you.
Wow quality video, so authentic.
You may not see the direct impact but this will definitely influence future boat owners & non performance cat companies will reference it forever
So agreeing -I’m excited for new news/boat!
Very good insights here. Everyone looks for the right boat for them as a person/couple/family. Ideally for us, and I think you, there is a boat with the performance level, safety and comfort to cover most of our requirements. Safety is top of the list and speed and the upwind ability of a boat adds to that when you are running from or to something. Daggerboards offer just as much added performance when running down wind as they are removed from the water and with them the drag that comes with fixed keels. Having them gives you the ability to sail better upwind when and if you need to as well. Waterline is important but how much extra do you need or want to pay for as a couple or single hander? You pay for the added length continually as long as you own the boat, as you know. Finding the right balance and compromise is the challenge for all of us. Good luck!😅
Firstly, you've pretty much nailed making a video without a boat which, for a sailing channel, is a preeeettty big ask. Secondly, you confirmed we got the right boat (Leopard 62)
Thirdly, the personal growth is evident, I actually enjoy your channel a lot more. Hope you find a perfect for you boat soon, if you haven't already
At this rate we'll have you back in a mono 🤣
like me......
Too funny! I actually lol'd as I sit here waiting for my burger.
Team mono for sure!!
😅😅😅😅😂😂
Well, let me tell you something about Cowboys.
And you need to listen... Every cowboy only owns one great horse in his life and no matter how many horses he rides, it's never as good or never means as much to him.As that one great horse... Now you talk to any old real old cowboy , and I'm they'll tell. you ..this damn straight true..
.. You may keep trying to find another boat.That you're fall in love with , but you won't , coz.it'll never match up to -- ( need I say it ?? )..
They say The biker doesn't pick the bike ,, that the bike picks the biker..
That the cowboy doesn't pick the horse. The horse picks the cowboy.
You can analyze all you want..
But when you pass by the right boat .,,,, -- The boat it will let you know..
While my wife and I were watching your content I was composing a comment concerning middle of the road boats, when I stopped and thought to myself " those two have more than enough miles to KNOW the compromises they feel best about.)
Soon as I finished the thought, you went into everyone DO YOU.
We loved this episode, and your content.
Does the crew match the boat. That is so spot on and a question every potential owner should be asking themselves regardless of pleasure boat they want to buy. Great stuff!
Still the most informative AND entertaining boat channel on TH-cam!!! I don't know why I'm surprised, again; but this was top notch. Thank you for the great content.
We are all looking very much forward to seeing you sailing.
Thanks for voicing what we have been thinking for years. Safety, then comfort and finally performance is how we rank our needs. Sleep and rest are #1 priority for us offshore. Performance even comes after liveability at anchor as we are anchored 90% of the time. Thanks for the video guys ❤
So Nick I imagine now you have understand what I told you all those year back in St Augustine when you come out of the water with your Leopard 46 and next to us on the hard with our Outremer 55. The best boat is the one with the least compromises for you. So good luck to the 2 of you looking and your best compromise. It could be a cat a mono an RV or a cabin were ever , but what ever that is enjoy.
Hey Maas! How is life?
Honestly, this journey you have taken us on has been just as cool/interesting to watch as your sailing videos. I think I have learned a lot from you. This video was done so well too. Loved the solitaire on the computer in front of Megan.
thanks, lol
Probable the most helpful and realistic of all episodes. Things do go wrong and the more forgiving the boat and rig, the more aventures ahead.
Finally you agree with me. I have always said that preformance anything yacht works the best for weekend weekend/coastal cruisers. Allowing you to get to and from somewhere as fast as possible maximising your time where you want to be. When you are cruising the world this schedual becomes less important
Yep, every boat is a compromise in some way and finding the right match between boat and crew is the secret sauce. I love day sailing on a very cutting edge high performance boat but for crossing oceans, I would choose a performance-cruiser somewhere in the Seawind category. A well performing sailor's boat with enough creature comfort, less intense performance envelope, and at a lower production cost. I would choose fixed keels for rudder protection and a rig that can easily be handled with a crew of 2.
Best wishes guys!
Great insights... Compromise is certainly key.
Horses for courses and horses are also a good analogy. Don't get a finicky thoroughbred when what you need is a good saddle horse.
Two directions you were heading I didn't agree with, the Outremer deal and the "performance at all cost" orientation, I have had race multi hulls, cruisers and compromise boats. I have 100% confidence in your process to get this right.
Agree. As a redhead, there is no way in hell my boat will have an exposed helm or cockpit. Yes you can cover up like she showed and I do when needed, but do you really want to live like that on your home?
Great video. Thank you for the inspiration. Glad to see you haven’t lost your sense of humor. Your next boat is out there.
You are headed toward a performance mono. I had raced monos for decades, and also raced a Hobie Cat for 10 years. Great thrills, but also many capsizes. When it came time to buy a boat to cruise around the world, I went with a performance mono. It didn't have what I call the pucker factor when the weather is rough and you know that one mistake will end your adventure. It was also faster on passages than similar length catamarans because when the autopilot drives the boat 99% of the time, you have to sail a cat very conservatively. Best of all, the mono cost a fraction of what a cat does.
For many owners the main reason they want a ‘performance’ lightweight catamaran is for the ability to sail in light winds under 10 knots and use the engine much less. Many owners probably get over the buzz to maximise speed and just want to sail comfortably, they have that choice. There also the motion of the boat to consider, less hobby horsing and a more graceful motion of a lighter performance cat must be an important benefit to owners too.
I think it really depends on where you want to sail. An area with a lot of variable winds...mid-latitudes, or sailing areas where the distances aren't that long like the Med...the fast, light boats have a huge advantage in my mind. Whether or not a light catamaran is "graceful" in its motion....well, I think that's buying into the marketing buzz...it's hard to make broad statements like that, but light boats often (in our experience) have much sharper, quicker motion. It is going to be different depending on the particular design and displacement.
TH-cam.com/@CatGreatcircle please tell us how much you used you engine during ocean crossings on your current circumnavigation on your Outremer 55. It’s impressive and a compelling case.
Greatly appreciated. This was a question I was searching for an answer to. I think you nailed it that the true experience of the boat doesn’t equate to the speed, and how speed often comes with its own stress. Thank you!
With other words : you are getting older and wiser, seeing that comfort outperforms speed ? 😜🤣😂
We will get a faster boat...just not maybe the "performance" boat we thought we would. The definition has changed for us.
I don't have a boat yet. I'm just dreaming. I'm learning a profession that will allow me to work remotely, and I'm diving into the world of 'choosing the first boat' (it will most likely be a catamaran for the project).
Thank you very much for this video. Even without experience, I came to the same conclusions.
Wishing you success. I look forward to following your adventures.
Absolutely Brilliant Video! Well done, you guys are a real triple-threat performance-couple (Sailors, educators & content creators). Very informative & entertaining.
And yeah, I was pretty pleased to see that Balance ignited your desire for performance 🔥 yeahaa .... but more importantly, that Balance hit the middle of the triangle. Right on target! Lifestyle and comfort should not be compromised by performance. 🌴⛵😎
Spot on! The crew must be happy and healthy onboard and that starts with good seamanship and boat handling skills. The right boat is better than the fastest boat. And a “production” cat can be the right boat! In fact, not all production cats are slow and heavy and with the right sailors and a “complete” set of sails you can go “fast” but the getting there isn’t to be missed out on! You’ll find the right boat and I’m glad you are still enjoying the adventure along the way!
Framing this discussion in creating memories and what those memories will be is key, and really helped me. Thank you.
I believe that trip on the Outremer taught you everything you needed to know. Less can be more. Now you have more, Clarity.
Super good assessment.
As an interested and potential future sailor, I can say, thank you! We took a quick sailing lesson recently and will be taking more this summer. Then its a small starter boat before anything larger and live aboard. Its more expensive on paper but I think the experience makes all the difference. Point in fact, we froze during training, in mexico, because we underestimated the wind chill on the water. Simply but telling experience.
Very smart. Enjoy the journey!
Thanks for the excellent commentary. One aspect that is seldom mentioned is "performance at anchor". It is easy to compare the sailing performance polars of various boats and of course that is useful. But let's face it, how much time do we spend sailing vs time spent at anchor? For us, it is probably 90% anchored and 10% sailing. And some boats perform much better at anchor than others. Are the big, heavy production boats better at anchor when the swell rolls around the headland? Or are the lightweight, skinny hulls better? That would be an interesting comparison.
Great video.
I've been of this mindset all along, but it is a personal choice so never commented. Speed is a safety asset because the longer you are on the water the more the odds the forecast doesn't hold up. Get there faster and you will probably see what was forecast. The alternative is that when things do get snotty, I'd much rather be on a heavy, sturdy boat.
Performance boats are like a fancy sports car. Fun to go drive for a while, but if you want to drive more than a few hours you'd rather be in the big comfy sedan or SUV.
Dagger boards are one more thing to get fouled up. There are enough systems to worry about!
Thank you so much. You helped me - bluewater sailing on an aluminium monohull and missing sometimes the speed - to dig much deeper into the performance catamaran thing. Top information on a professional-like level!
Hey guys, it was interesting to see where the HH-OC fell on your chart. I am a bit in love with the HH-OC 44 the Wynns have. I think it would make a great second boat. Plenty of time to learn to sail while they build one for you.
I was thinking the same thing. I doubt that Nick and Megan need to really learn much, though. I love the HH-OC 44 the Wynns have, as well.
It's so hard to categorize boats and put them all on one chart.
@@terryroth9707 I was actually refering to myself. I am hoping to move up to something bigger than my old Sunfish.
@soloflight75 I hope things work out for you. Unless I hit the lottery, I'll never own that cat. Even then, I would need to learn to sail first. I'm just living vicariously through TH-cam, right now.
I agree with your synopsis 100% Length maters
Great video. As a performance cat owner with over 100,000 ocean miles in monohulls I am still learning how to sail my catamaran - after 4 years. I have met a number of inexperienced sailing couples who have bought performance cats and are feeling out of their depth and some even thinking of reverting to a monohull. These boats are a handful and as you say you really need to know what you are doing before you take them out in a blow.
Having sailed racing boats through to heavy cruisers both mono hull and multi hull my feeling is as I get older that I'd rather be on a boat that I can sail more than motor. So for me that means more performance orientated. I can always sail a fast boat slower and in light winds. The same cannot be said for the heavier slower boat. You do you.
Easy to "stick with you" - you are always thoughtful and entertaining! I look forward to your videos.
Aww thanks Don, so nice to see your note!
Great video. I had a performance 2015 46ft mono for 3 years, Med, Caribbean, East Coast USA - I remember great upwind sailing throughout the voyage and benefit of good down furler asymetric 180 sq m. Couple 90% of time and were lucky survived no major mishap - 30 knot squall damaged code zero when did bad furl on way to Bermuda. But when BIG sails go wrong need crew (Vagabonde losing staysail tack/ your Outremer voyage). We like performance so going more Cat 42 - 45ft (12.5m) - KISS, but with daggerboards! key light boat for smaller sails so easier sail handling for when we furl badly!!! Outremer 45 / Dazcat / Schionning / OC42 / Catana 42/431 (heavier). Hope you get your boat soon.................
Great concept for this video - I spit my coffee out when the doctor was playing games - Good information too.....
Performance anxiety 😂 now that was hilarious. As someone who has been following you guys for years very accurate in your description of what works, what doesn't and how you can get in over your head. Love you guys
Ahh thanks. We love you too.
One of my « not for me » cat designs, are those that have their helm stations located on the stern of each hull. I hate that design as it exposes the helmsman to the weather and it is hard to gauge what’s going on on the diagonally opposed bow.
The reason there are so many different boats available is that none of them tick all the boxes. I have a 14ft monohull dinghy for 'proper sailing', a fifteen foot trimaran for pretending I'm in an 18ft Skiff, a 22ft cruiser for occasional sleepovers and day sdailing without the constant threat of capsize and access to a Cessna 152 for going a bit further afield. Charter boats up to about forty feet for three weeks a year fill in some of the gaps but I still feel I could use three or four more boats to tick all the boxes. a waterfront house somewhere nice with its own slip and a boathouse containing a few small boats would tick most of the boxes!
bikes are like that too...and guitars...
As i said on Facebook - Video perfection. Nick's perfect summing up of the issues. The use of the psychiatrists couch. And the teaser of a possible boat. And for those with doubts about Nick's comments watch Ruby rose getting to grips with their new seawind, via a dragging anchor, and a partly sunk dingy!
Great video Nick and Megan - I'm with you on this ! the other thing of course is 'collision' - with a whale or a submerged object - fishing fads and more ! I'm seeing more and more stuff floating in the oceans and going fast could come at a heavy cost !
Yeh, good point. A lot more junk out there these days. Safe travels friends!
Really enjoyed the set up in this video! When we were buying our first boat, our broker, Phillip Berman of Balance and The Multihull Company asked three critical questions: what's your sailing agenda, what's your experience, do you have an exit. These three questions and answers will dictate the boat. When we answered these questions honestly, our budget, and location wanted to launch from, it really narrowed it down to about 6 boats. And from there condition of the boat narrowed it down to about 3. This really helped us focus and kick start our adventure in a positive direction.
He's successful with Balance for a reason! Cheers.
Just found the channel, very high production quality on the video!
Slow and secure is good, it's nice to know that the ship can push through harsher environments. Which also grands more exotic places to explore.
And about speed: "Some people sail with the intention of getting away from the ocean as fast as possible". If I wanna go fast, I would fly a passenger plane. Which would be fast and boring, because speed is relative. It's about the thrill of speed, not the actual numbers on the speedometer.
Such a creative way to present this topic. Throughly enjoyed it. I’m a MV boater, but have learned a LOT about the sailing, and boating in general, from you both.
Excellent and honest video! Been watching you folks for several years. Don’t get sucked into the need for speed! Look for comfort and safety! We also watch several of the other TH-cam catamaran Channels and we are not seeing those that went with High Performance absolutely loving it. It is a different beast altogether and one that I don’t think is suitable for many folks. We don’t have a Catamaran but if I was to buy one I would look real hard at the Antares Boats. Best of luck to you!
I keep coming back to this video because I love the music and video that runs while you're sampling all those gorgeous cats. Also a lot of it is hilarious.
Dear O'Kelly's, Enjoying all your content. It is a lot of fun analyzing all the trade offs involved in selecting the "right" boat. A good compromise might be to decide you don't need to cross oceans. If you end up not desiring to cross oceans then the boat selection becomes a lot easier and much less expensive. With the money you save by deciding to not cross oceans you can get a "less is more" type house ashore or base an RV some where that compliments the cruising area you decide to base the new boat or just "airbnb it" when you return home to Oregon when you want a break from living on a boat and want to spend time with established friends and family. Or "airbnb it" when you travel away from the boat by airplane across oceans. Doing as described above is my approach so, obviously, I am projecting what I do which may not fit you guys. To do the above you can pick a cruising ground then pick a boat well suited to that cruising ground. For example if you pick a cruising area with trade winds then you don't have to allocate so much of your budget to a boat that sails well in light wind, points well or has great performance in general. If you pick a cruising area with less dependable wind and a lot of light wind a good option is go with hybrid aux power so you can reduce the time you have to run an ICE, go with a boat that points well and performs well in light wind. If you decide to not cross oceans you can allocate more of your budget for a new boat to comfort while anchored versus all that is required to to safely cross oceans at a reasonable pace. As you pointed out if do decide to cross oceans following the trade winds and sailing downwind most of the time the difference in speed between a performance versus non performance going down wind is not that great. What about doing a deal with a charter company where the charter company charters the boat during the high season and you get the use of the boat the other 7-8 months? I think the math works well for that with a boat based in Croatia. Then for 4-5 months you can go wherever you want by airplane including spending time in Oregon.
Great video with your Psych visit generating a smile. I am so glad you have come to many of the conclusions you have.
The video you referenced with all the data regarding passages and times taken is well worth watching. I first saw it some years ago and it still makes sense today, especially today. Many of the people I know who are attracted to the high performance cats also resent being overtaken on the freeway.
If you look at the experience of people like Ben and Ashley from Sailing Nahoa (who actually make passages across oceans) they have come to many of the same conclusions, which are reflected in their new Nahoa 55 boat build/design.
Either way I hope you can find a boat you will be comfortable in at anchor (which will be 95% of the time) and can make passage safely and at a reasonable speed. Like many I would like to see you back on a boat making great content which is valuable to many.
All the best!
Excellent episode! You both made a lot of great observations. For a full time liveabord catamaran, speed performance would be one of the last item on my list for the same reasons you pointed out. For me the top priority would be safety & how practical the boat is in terms of maintenance, operation & redundancy of the systems on board. An aluminium catamaran like the Garcia ExploCat 52 would be my top pick.
The best and an enjoyably unique walk through of the yachting market….thanks for being real and logical about yr abilities and needs. So we will see you buying a gun boat next month😂
What a creative video! So informative yet entertaining. It was also spot on as I digest and narrow our own search for our first boat. Thanks for this. Your warnings for newbies taking on too much was so pertinent.
I loved this video - the humor (solitaire playing psychiatrist, lol!), the candor, & the thought process. My husband and I went through this 25 years ago. Only we never ended up buying another boat. (Lots of other factors - health, money, new hobbies.) But I don't think we even realized our own process until seeing yours, so extra thanks. That Windelo 50 is looking more and more intriguing, but I'd like to see how well they're made. I love following your journey & seeing where the path takes you. And if Nick needs another appointment with the therapist, make sure to share when the doctor is in. 😂
Good luck 🍀 with the search & excellent video!
Really enjoyed this one. I'm with you on the comfort aspect, it is much more important to be comfortable than going fast.
I believe after listening to y’all, or watching y’all for so many years we have all gained clarity
Us too.
Us too!
As a fellow pilot (with 5,000 hours on the ERJ175) I cannot agree more with you on the parallelism between people jumping on a Bonanza (or Vision jet today) and the performance boats. You got to do your learning in rough conditions and gain experience there with a less performance boat so you understand the tradeoffs... I am very interested to see what will happen over the next 24 months with all these performance boats like LaVagabonde, Gone with the Winns, Ruby Rose, etc...
Congratulations to an entertaining, funny, insightful video! You address many points that we are mulling over and over as well. My wife Kathy and I live on a 2020 Leopard 45 and we love the liveability and the space on board. However we would love to have a bit of extra speed and a better sailplan. Downwind sailing in up ton 20-23 kts True Wind Speed is good thanks to our Oxley Spinnaker, but upwind tacking is inefficient and the hobby-horsing is making it no fun at all. So we think about a faster boat which also has some ability to tack upwind from time to time. December 2023 we did our second east-west Atlantic crossing 2760nm in 21 days, averaging 5,5 kts. Maybe in a Outremer 52 we would have done 7,5kts? In such a case we would have had 15 days instead of 21. Big difference. BUT: Over the last 3 years we lived 80% on board and made aprox 15'000 nautical miles with an average of 5,8 kts, giving us roughly 2590 hrs underway, which equals around 12% of the total time we were on board. True, the range of destination reachable in a daytrip changes significantly, but how important is ist? We are still undecided, maybe we would travel more with a faster boat, because it's more fun... ;-) However, the market may change, and maybe you are right, Nick, and some of the first time boat owners who have chosen a perfomance cat may come to the conclusion they are in over their heads and put them on the market. Meanwhile I really hope you find a boat, at least one that is good to live the life on the water even if maybe not the fastest one out there... :-) Would love to meet you again!
Hey Silvio! Firstly, you are in a great position to make the decision. You have the miles in the "slow" boat, so when you go for a long ride in the "fast" boat, hopefully in the ocean, you can see where/if you'll really be gaining big miles because those faster average speeds are dependent on your taste/style/capabilities in the conditions you often sail in. Handling an Oxley in 20-23 at 170T on your L45 is a different attention/stress level than handling an asym on a fast boat at 135T. And you don't really know the difference in VMG until you do it. You might be impressed or you might be, meh. You don't know until you try. Yes, hope we cross paths again!
Each one of us is different and each one must find the boat that suits them. I come from racing, and for me entertainment, even when I'm in cruising mode, is looking for the maximum speed of the boat, much more than the destination. My best memories are sailing with big winds and waves, taking the boat in a continuous planing with the maximum amount of sail possible.
The very best was Megan playing solitaire! Love you guys.
this is really interesting and think about this a lot. When there is low wind you want a fast boat, but when the wind\sea is high you need a safe boat -the lack of speed is not the issue. How do you balance both? We charter, so the bottom of the pyramid, and always have small factory sails -we would get a lot of perf out of a proper rig alone vs getting into a high perf boat. I really just need an efficient low wind sail! And most important part! danger always shows up when the weather is not nice - 100% of the time! You need to test a boat out in rough conditions or you dont know the boat.
Your pyramid with brands ranked according to performance is pretty accurate . Did miss the DazCats .
Missed a lot of boats, but eyesight is fading a bit....small fonts....lol
In my experience my 2011 Nautitech 441 is a performance cruiser. At 13 tons with 800l of water, dinghy and provision it is pleasingly fast. In 12kts on a reach we sail at 7.5kts. With 20 kts in the eastern Caribbean we average 9.5kts often doing 10-11 between Islands and 7.5 in the lee
I really enjoyed this film. I also loved your book ‘getting her on board’!! Thanks you two for sharing so much with us all. I have been debating for 3 years which sailing cat to get and how to fund buying it. All the cats I like are so expensive! Forget the Outremer 51 or 52, even a FP Astra 42 is the price of a small house! But I had an epiphany at the end of a weeks sailing course last year on a 42 foot sailing cat in narly rough weather. Despite loving sailing and having done tons of dinghy sailing, 500 sea miles on sailing cats and 1500 miles on my 60ft classic motorboat, I decided after that course was what I loved about boats was being on the ocean in beautiful places. That was more important than whether it had sails or not! I want to explore the Med for a few years, not cross large oceans, so a classic motorboat like a Grand Banks Classic or a really old Fleming 55 is a better fit for me. Less stressful. Also my partner is not a sailing or boat person, so a motorboat is easier to learn the ropes on, as it has a lot less ropes! Other YT boaters have even speculated that it’s cheaper to run a displacement motorboat than a sailing boat, which has sails and rigging to maintain, on top of engines and gen sets. Also in the Med in the summer, there is not a lot of wind, Motor Every Day MED, so might as well have a boat without sails. Anyway, thanks again. Different stokes for different folks. No right or wrong. Just what feels best to have great adventures with the least stress and risks. That’s my goal. Love from me in the UK. Xx
Sound thinking there. Right boat depends on the mission and the crew. None of it is cheap.
@@TheOKellys you should both have your own Netflix series. You are very watchable!! Thanks again for the good advice. And for the cost… BOAT Bring On Another Thousand 😱🤦♂️
For all the reasons you highlighted, is why I chose the Manta 42, #117. S/C Reality
A "Performance Couple" applies to more than just sailing. Wonderful video. Thank you.
Wow, thank you!
I have been following you for a long time and I always enjoyed your TH-cam videos. I learn a lot and now I am a happy owner of a 48L Leopard. Your last video maybe a good realisation that the boat is not what matter. It is the project and what you experience with it. Such as discovery, friend, reaching a goal and living. Safe sailing
Spent a week as crew on a Windelo 50 crossing the med. Full of futuristic systems but the forward protected cockpit is the best.
Really. Our patron owns one. We need to hook up with him. He's a cool dude.
Well Nick. I feel your pain. You had to take this journey to be assured contentment with whatever your final decision. Y'all should be excited to now realize that an entirely new market of cruising boats are awaiting your next two years of review videos! ha! For me, with a wife that isn't really a sailor, nor historically an outdoors girl, it was a matter of buy-in, so comfort was key. Oh she says we really don't need all the air conditioning and such, but my crystal ball says different. So the 2400Ah @ 24V Victron Lithium, 3300W Solar, Arco Zues Smart Regulators, 3 inverter/variable speed air units, convection, 5 in 1 electric oven, etc., were my top priority. All but the galley appliances and ice maker run directly off of the 24V house bank, even the water heaters. (instruments are 12V). That said, this little Leopard 42 did impress me a bit this past weekend in Tampa Bay. Granted, a fairly flat seaway, but with heavy factory production sails, she reached 9.3 SOG at around 70 degrees in 18 knots. So I'm a pretty happy, and comfortable, sailor. I'd be happy to talk with you about your future boat looking anxiety, but unfortunately, "I'm out of time!" Get a boat, man. 🤣
Nick, I can so relate. As an owner of an outremer 45 we (a typical couple) had almost the same experiences when we bought our boat 2 years ago. Our first catamaran and we had to sail it within 11 days after delivery from the yard in France to Turkey for some specific reasons. So we hired a delivery skipper and crew to help us or more precisely to get the boat there. And due the time pressure and the rough weather in March it was quite a scary beginning for us. We alone would have done it much, much slower🙂. However, after more than 11.000 NM, crossing the Med twice, the Atlantic once and the Caribbean twice my takeaways are the follows: Would I buy this boat again, yes definitely and without any question. Why? You don‘t have to go fast, but you can when it is fun. In rougher conditions it is for us very reassuring to have a boat that is build for offshore use and not primarily for coastal cruising. You feel it every mile. Much less or almost no slamming, less windage, a very sound and reliable reefing system etc. And we love it - due to the speed advantage - to be often the first newcomer in a bay where we then can pick one of the best and safest spots🙂. So, in summary, the 45 (which is actually 48 ft long) is for us as couple the best compromise of space and the feeling that we can handle it. Not just in coastal areas but also offshore.
What was your experience level prior to the 45?
I have not owned a sailing boat myself before, so did only chartering in the Med and Baltic sea. However, I took also part in the Clipper around the world race for two month and the 4 week training required before to prepare myself somewhat better. Since I did the Australien leg I also took part in the Sydney Hobart Yacht Race and saw there and on another race quite a lot of heavy weather in the Southern Ocean. This really extended my comfort zone🙂. In total I had sailed around 7000 NM before I got my outremer45. Best, Bent
well, that's some pretty awesome training before buying a performance boat! Cheers!
Fair Isle crossed the Atlantic in about 15 days in a mono haul. Sure it was a different route but still something to ponder.
Definitely something to ponder... We crossed the North Atlantic as husband and wife crew of only 2 headed to the Med in our monohull but we took our sweet time...
personally I’m a massive fan of the up and coming excess catamarans. The 11 is an outstanding vessel and the 14 ticks all the boxes-- both make repairs completely accessible , while still being somewhat “affordable” compared to others
Part of the journey is always self-discovery. Sometimes paradigm shifts come full circle and that's OK. I would stipulate that speed on passage is heavily dependent on the crew's ability to safely maximize the potential of their boat on average, not for remote periods. Good vid.
Amen. I return to Colorado today after a winter in the windward islands. Did you mention your light performance boat will soon be loaded up and won't be so light anymore?
Yep...one of the reasons we want something bigger than Clarity...we aren't minimalists on boats...plenty of spares, food, and guitars...lol
Thank you … learning from you is we want a 45 foot fountains pajot a put some performance upgrades on it like props better sails an such … do you agree ????
"Thoughtful" is how experience enhances the future. Great video!
There's a sailing channel "bums on a boat" - maye you can rename yours as bums without a boat! - genius business model - having a very good sailing channel without the maintenance & running costs of a big cat. (joking) Actually really like the videos. Fair winds!
Hi Nick, how are you?
To me, the issue is not so much centered on "performance or not performance" but on the actual sailing ability of catamarans, and in all of this, daggerboards are a central concept. Without them, the ability of a catamaran to push beyond the abeam is really reduced.
Unfortunately, it is not always possible to sail with the wind at the stern, and the ability of any boat to be able to sail in any direction, thus including upwind, is crucial. All too often in the Mediterranean I came across catamarans that were motoring because of their total inability to sail when the apparent wind was less than 80 to 90 degrees.
When you sail on a performance catamaran, you are the one who chooses whether to go fast or not (depending on how much sail area you have exposed) and thus, by implication, your stress level as well. I've seen you at the helm of the Outremer 55, you love to go fast, if you didn't want to do that it would have been enough to take an extra reef to the mainsail. :-)))
That is why more than talking about "performance or not performance," I would have liked to see you address the perhaps even thorny topic of "catamarans that sail vs. catamarans that don't."
Fair wind
Luca
We never said that light air performance or upwind performance wasn't important. For us, it seems to be coming clear that the cost for those capabilities, at least for the kind cruising we intend to do is not worth the extra money spent. We are nervous about overspending into a part of the market that we have doubts about. If we could find a true performance boat that fit out needs and budget that we were confident in the future value of, we would buy it.
Seawind 1600 has dagger boards that do not come above deck.
Cool Video...what i would be interested in hearing more about is how much less motoring is it possible to have with a performance cruiser? Is it a big diiference, not so big? Does it save alot of money in fuel? Those are the things that appeal to me more about performance boats.
Brilliant summary im glad I have learnt in a production cat as 5 years in im still not sure I could or want to handle the stress of a performance cat under load.
This is youre best yet. Full of practical experience that will pop the bubble. For me a 20 year old oyster 62 sounds good to me. But thats me
On the subject of exposed aft helm positions, they mark the boat as a coastal cruising weekend racer. They are not a long term live aboard open ocean boat. You can do it but it won't be pleasant.
This is one of my all time Okelly favorites, and great points all around
My wife always said sailboats should be called "workboats" because they take work to go and the faster you want to go the more work there is!
Ahhhhhh FINALLY, you've woken up from your dream time ....Welcome Back...Now lets get you into a Proper Comfortable Cruising off grid 48 - 58ft CAT with all the bibs & bobs you hearts desire....
COMFORT+++ moderate - Ok performance...
58 is my Lucky No.😊👍cheers
I started following your channel after watching your mono vs cat video. I thought it was well reasoned and informative. We spent 10 years aboard our Amel ketch, but age, seasickness, and grandkids pushed us in to the Cat. We met very few performance Cats cruising, and really only one couple truly qualified to sail one-both open ocean world wide racers. Even they had to slow things down for their son. I think you have come to a rational decision on helm position-no one I know really spends a great deal of time at the helm truly sailing, but many enjoy the view from a raised position. If we really spent every minute at the helm, an autopilot would be superfluous. I wish you luck in continuing your journey. I don’t mean this in an ugly way, but I don’t think a performance Cat would have saved you a year’s time. Fair winds.