I've been playing MtG for 20 years. I own thousands of dollars worth of reserved list cards and blinged out commander decks. Part of the hobby for me is collecting cards that stoke a sense of nostalgia for different periods in my life. With all that said, I have ZERO problems with people using proxies for casual play. The amount of fun you can have playing Magic shouldn't be proportional to the amount of cash you've spent on your deck.
I feel like I've watched the Manifesto for anarcho-proxysm. And I couldn't be happier about it. Awesome work (not in the wage slavery sense), keep it up!
My feelings on proxies is something that's changed and conflicted a lot over the years. When my friends and I were younger there was one person in our group who ran proxies and I didn't like it because it broke the power level of our group since the rest of us were mostly just using the recently rotated standard cards we all had. Then for a bit I thought proxies were fine as long as you actually planned on buying them. As I've gotten older I've realized my issues were with the deck power balance in the group not the proxies and I honestly feel bad about how I used to guilt him about bringing them. Now I have no issues with proxies, the cost of mtg is ridiculous at best and I just want us to have a good time.
I hope you don't feel bad about those moments in the past! You've understood them-and yourself-more thoroughly and have changed because of that understanding. That's all we can do! Thanks for sharing this, too!
My playgroup has the "as long as you intend on buying them eventually" mindset, although there are people who proxy things like Sol Ring because they don't have enough, proxies are kind of up to the person their playing against, some people in my playgroup are totally fine playing against proxies, others prefer you have the actual cardboard. I have a deck I intend on bringing to GenCon so it only runs real cards, which can get expensive when talking about things like ABUR dual lands
I've had a very similar relationship with proxies. These days, I'll only really get bugged by a proxy when it isn't easy to identify as the card its meant to be representing- so if someone had that sharpied-Plains in their pet EDH deck for an extended period of time, I'd ask them to replace it with a proxy that looked a little more like the "real thing". EDH games are complicated enough- making the game pieces legible is important for facilitating play. That, or when someone proxies a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. The only thing that bugs me more is some actually owning a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
i think i was the first in my group to run proxies, but it was as i was initially trying to get into commander, and just didn't have the cards. if i recall it was a Mayael the Anima deck. everything in that deck i replaced within about 3 months. a couple of my buddies have since actually encouraged reaching higher on the power spectrum with my proxies. some of the decks i will likely never really flesh out. my groups biggest issue is when someone blows the bell curve with deck power, in particular if it is a deck that is both above our decks weight class that also feels bad to play against.
Excellent! Thanks so much for all that attention, Chris. I hope to keep producing videos you enjoy. More soon (gameplay, piloting & politicking advice, deck techs, and more!).
My only issue with the "sharpie on a basic land" is that I'm the most experienced player in my regular playgroup. I don't have a direct issue if I write "Ophiomancer" on a card, but my playmates might not know that card, and I don't want us to spend half the game wondering about what's going on on the table, rather than having quickly recognizable cards that can be picked up and read if there's any confusion. Still I'd never tell anyone they can't write a card name on another piece of cardboard and wish "Can I use proxies?" wasn't a question that even has to be asked.
With well over 10000 unique cards noone can remember all of them. In our group we came to the conclusion that proxies are ok if they contain all rule relevant texts and are easy to read/identify.
Very well said. I've started to proxy cards more often over the last few years. I still prefer to use a "real" copy of the card when I can, but I'm fine with it if somebody sitting across from me is using proxies. As you said in the video, I'd want to play against you, not your wallet.
Excellent. I'm in a similar position; I prefer using authorized copies I own, but I have zero qualms with proxying cards up. I'm glad you enjoyed this video and its argument!
just discovered your channel after watching the video you did with cEDH cast on krark the Thumbless/Sakashima of a Thousand Faces (one of my favorite cEDH decks to watch and run), and I decided to check out your channel because I liked your way of thinking. Decided the best way to see what you are all about, is to see your most popular video. Gotta say, I love this video very much so, and it speaks to alot of the stuff I've tried explaining to my friends before. I didn't expect to find such a down to earth video about Class and Economics, not to mention such a well put together and dare I say relaxing video. bravo, subscribed, gonna binge more of your stuff now *smiles warmly* ^^ I had no idea Vanguard and Black Rock controlled so much capaital in the world, and, to be honest, I had never heard of them before now, so I learned alot from this video
thank you so much! this message is very kind; i'm so glad to hear i helped a little bit. and thanks for following your curiosity and finding the channel! i appreciate you very much. 🙏❤️
Proxies remind me of emulation both are questionably legal but both let you experience something you might have not been around for when it was released.
That's an interesting parallel that I'll have to think about more. I've definitely played a few games on emulators-particularly old games that I no longer have the hardware to play!
I totally agree with this comparison, and it's why I have no problems with emulation. Plus, who exactly loses out when you emulate? For profit companies? I'd rather just play my game for free, than pay them 20-70 bucks for permission to do so.
That's one of the best analogies I've ever read. My parents couldn't (or wouldn't?) buy a game boy for me, but my dad found some way to emulate Pokémon Blue on his Windows 95 PC. The feeling back then was very similar to what I feel when I get to cast my print-out Mana Crypts.
This was awesome and really captured many of the feelings and conversations about proxies we hear in our community, your influences were well chosen and came through =)
I'm so glad to see somebody talk about this bluntly. I'm so tired of so much of Magic's experience being locked away behind a class wall. Playing cEDH, Legacy, or Vintage shouldn't mean having to be upper class
I'm really glad someone put out a video that actually talks about the indoctrination of worth and ownership. For a lot of people the only way they can justify buying expensive cards in the first place is if they believe they are buying the right to play it. In reality all they are buying is the right to play it in a tournament setting as well as the right to sell it again for it's market value. It's like people who went into debt to get a degree that now think everyone else should have to do the same.
The "feels bad" from non-ownership hits me so hard sometimes. I still struggle with my own desire to have "the real thing", which itself shows that I consider one version of the card concept as "real" and the other versions as "not real". This video helped validate that one can shift perspective about what the concept of "real" even is. Is Grim Monolith a set of properties for a game piece, or is it a card? What happens if we consider letting go of the notion of it as a card?
I use make playing cards for my proxies, they are basically blinged out proxies, with cooler art work so makes my decks look and feel more like my own. So their is also an artistic argument towards why to use proxies too. ;)
I feel it's a little disingenuous to equate the cost of simply printing a Magic card to the cost of making a Magic card. There's a lot of work that goes into designing a card before it gets sent to a printer- there's the work of the game designers to determine the mechanical workings of the card, the work of development and in-house WOTC playtesters to (try) to make sure it's balanced appropriately, the work of the artist who was commissioned to create the amazing artwork, the work of the visual designer who may have designed an alternate frame for the card, the work of the creative team that created the fictional fantasy plane that informs the name and flavor text of the card, and by extension the work of all the people and teams who work at WOTC who enable the existence of the game: the people in customer service, in HR, the folks in marketing and distribution, and so on and so on. And yes, due to the nature of capitalism and the imposed pressure to return on investment, none of the people doing that work are receiving compensation commensurate to the value of their work. But it's not as though, when I go to my LGS and buy a booster pack of 15 cards for $3.99, that $3.84 of that money is going straight towards the profits of Hasbro and its investors or whatever. When we buy sealed Magic product, we're not only paying for only the cardboard game pieces that are sealed within- we're also financing the infrastructure that creates the game. And I know that this doesn't really address the heart of your video- that the Magic community's attitudes towards proxies are influenced by our larger culture's attitudes towards ownership and value. And I know that all of the work done by WOTC and the artists and printers they commissioned to create all the Grim Monolith's printed in 1999 in Urza's Legacy can't come close to justify the $250 price tag- that's a product of the second market and the Reserved List's artificial scarcity. Anyway... yeah. Let people play with proxies in Commander. Rule 0 is there for a reason, and it's to ensure that everyone can find a way to enjoy the game.
Fantastic video! I'm absolutely unopposed to proxies, but I've never really used them myself other than in CEDH decks. I've never really been able to articulate WHY I don't use them (e.g. why a deck isn't "done" until I actually own all of the cards), but you did a great job breaking it down. You earned a new subscriber, can't wait to see more.
Depends on how many decks you keep built and what kind of power level you play at. Like alot of CEDH/high power level players dont want to have to buy like 3+ mana crypts or have to own sets of dual or fetch lands for all the decks they want to play and dont want to have to constantly swap their legit cards around between how ever many decks. So you may not use proxies for said reason.
BIPOC checking here and I’m still scratching my head at your point with accessibility and assertion that we’re all poor and can’t afford a booster pack.
hello! i don't make that claim, and if you understood me to be making that claim i'm sorry for my imprecision. i meant only to say that some BIPOC folks have criticized Magic for its barriers to entry-and that it's important to listen to those voices and their criticisms and then do something to lower or destroy those barriers ❤️
This is a great video. I'm happy to see a critical, class based analysis of proxies, and I have an incredible amount of unity with what you're saying. I want to throw in two points that I think complicate matters. 1. The lifeblood of the game is the secondary market. In particular, the LGS. If proxy use overtook the use for officially printed cards, then the secondary market wouldn't be able to support the LGS. 2. I personally don't like proxies, but I really don't mind if my opponents use them. Its aesthetic as much as anything for me. But, I started playing magic in 1994 and have a lot of cards, including many very expensive reserved list cards. So, if you use proxies in your deck against me, that's not going to unbalance things in your favor. However, if I were a new player who had the same desire to use only official cards, if my opponents were proxying powerful and expensive cards, then my desire to play with only official cards would put me at a distinct disadvantage that I would likely come to resent. Combining these two points: Our LGS hosts a monthly cEDH tournament that I play in. I love it, and I want to play against the most competitive cEDH decks, not limited by accessibility. Normally, these tournaments have about 12-20 people, which is awesome. The store holds tournaments because it wants to make money. Its a small business, not Hasbro, and it wants to keep the lights and make what profits it can. All of the entry money just goes into paying for the cEDH cards that are in the prize pool, like Mana Crypts and things like that. It makes money from the tournaments by selling cards for the tournaments. If everyone just proxied their decks then there is no incentive for the LGS to hold the tournament,. They want to sell cards. The event probably wouldn't even fire because not enough people could afford to build a legal deck. So instead the tournament allows 10 proxies, which covers the most egregiously expensive cards, but the store still gets to make money. People get to play without feeling priced totally out, they can build optimized cEDH decks, and the store makes money. This is all to say that it isn't a issue with no middle ground. To me, this is the way forward, temporarily. A patch on the problem. The long-term solution is for WotC to print the overpriced cards until they are much more affordable. They make their money off of sealed product, after all. $20 cards on the secondary market are fine in moderation. $50+ and its much more problematic. It isn't like they couldn't affect this through their reprint policy. It would be no problem for play groups to give some proxy limit amongst themselves, and for playing with randoms in stores the stores could encourage a similar thing to keep things simple. Anyway, liked and subscribe. Great channel. :)
Love the video, and most importantly, totally agree with your point of view. Everyone who wants should be able to play the game, not only who can afford it; the joy and fun that this game brings to you, shouldn't be denied by money matters. Big support from Italy
I just want to say that you deserve WAY more subscribers! Personally, I'm pro proxies in commander and our play group allows them to be used. We feel similarly to you and the CEDH community, and I will be stealing that "play the player, not their wallet" line. Based video, I look forward to watching your channel grow in the future.
You are making this video talking about class, but I just saw a game where you played QUEEN Marchesa, curious Jokes aside, loved the video, you made me think about the value we put on ownership, and I damn myself for not thinking about it sooner, being a joyless anarchocomunist myself. Great video, so glad I found you. Cheers
Good video. Got a bit complex on some notes but I do agree with you. I do understand tho why some people wanna avoid proxies. It can destroy the art feeling. I wouldn't actually like to play vs your proxy grim monolith. It would be boring to look at and sometimes even confusing. But I understand what you mean. I don't have a problem with proxies. And I do sometimes play vs decks and players where the entier decks are just white paper with text on it.
I understand your appreciation of the aesthetic side of Magic-I watch your videos and see your dedication to buying and protecting these works of art! But it sounds to me that you don't let your aesthetic repulsion or dislike affect you so much that you're unwilling to play with people who can't or choose not to afford prettier versions of cards. Which is great! And that's primarily my point: it's more equitable and inclusive to widely accept proxies, even though some of them make the game pieces less beautiful.
Thank you for the thoughtful piece! This put into words many of my subconscious impressions, and will be my go-to video to refer people to when they question the use of proxies. :")
My personal stance in the matter tends to be that I want to own a single copy of a card before I proxy it, but since I've just started with cEDH, I probably won't carry over that mindset there.
While I am 100% for Proxies, the 'Sharpie on a Basic Land' does not fly with me. I want to be able to look at a card and know all of the relevant information. Looking at a Plains that says Grim Monolith causes me to have to repeatedly ask what that card does, or look it up. This slows down the game, makes it more difficult for me to play, and in turn I have less fun. So please just print out your cards at staples or something so I can read them.
This was awesome. Found your channel via @sirenofathena on twitter. My BA in Sociology was based on LGBT parenting and I did a lot of studying of Marx. This video and your points really resonate. Cant wait to see more!
What is this TH-cam making a good suggestion for once. Great video, I been in a few conversations about proxies in my life with magic it is always interesting were people stand on it. Something about "real" card just makes me feel good, its a sickness, but if the choice was between a game with proxies, or no game. I'd take a game with proxies.
I can't imagine playing in a group that tries to disallow proxies. The only proxy rule I find even remotely reasonable is something to the tune of 'proxies must physically represent the original card' (for readability / referencability purposes)
Since covid, my playgroup has moved to an online simulation program that is essentially 100% proxy. It's had upsides and downsides for our experience, the upside being that you can have many decks with obscure cards that are built quickly, and the downside being that everyone having access to the best and most expensive cards has almost always resulted in a less fun format.
I've never had an issue with proxying as long as it's not disrupting power balance. It's already feel bad enough when someone pulls out cEDH when everyone is playing goofy theme decks but it's eye rollingly painful if they pull out a 75%+ proxied cEDH deck. Also if someone's built a deck and proxied a $2500 manabase for the sake of it I'd probably make a comment. But if they built a spooktober deck and proxied All Hallow's Eve and Chains of Mephistopheles fuck yeah I'm all about that.
Fascinating video. Thank you for such high effort, cerebral content. Certainly food for thought. I think I would be broadly more amenable to a player using proxies provided they were high effort productions. It would definitely bug me if somebody rolled up to a table with a deck full of sharpie enhanced basic lands. However proxies are not a feature of my playgroup and I personally get satisfaction from the hobby in owning and playing with the real deal. I will often build commander decks that allow me to use the handful of EDH playable beta/unlimited/early expansion set commons and uncommons that I do own. I guess it’s sort of important to me that these cards are still played.
it's really interesting with the discussion of "real" decks that you bring in here. There are game scholars (Metagaming by Stephanie Boluk and Patrick Lemieux) that argue that the ways players negotiate playing within around and apart from games is the actual reality of gameplay experiences. Anyone whose played tabletop games is primed for this attitude there is so much to house rules and how that is a key part of playing those games, even if it's by complete accident, you don't need to buy every D&D book to play D&D (oh look another WotC property). There is a false sense of reality made within game spaces (often by the companies behind these games) about what is and isn't allowed that creates a tension which you did an excellent job identifying. EDH itself is effectively a house-rule gone mainstream, and all the decks friends and I have where we use commanders that are not legendary creatures are extensions of that house rule. There's that one MtG variant everyone tries where you have a spells and a lands deck and choose one to draw from every turn instead. Cube is not all that innovative to draft beyond saying "hey you can just put your cards back into packs and draft again and see if something new happens." Even official formats rely on understandings of cards that are not directly printed on them: Pauper uses what is just a way to sort booster packs so you don't give players too many good cards at once. Hell, even banlists (since that's the fun hot topic right now) rely on knowledge that is external to the game that you have to buy into and agree with. The space for affordances like these that are tied to but just different enough from Magic: The Gathering-as-written is WAY wider open than Hasbro wants people to believe or even think is possible. Which leads to an interesting development for many people's concerns with WotC trying to move to Arena more and more and commander being the most played format. The only space where WotC CAN literally tell you how to play with your cards, and limit how they can be put next to each other is in a virtual world where they have hard coded those rules into reality. It's a place where the rules are smooth and perfect (outside of bugs of course) where you literally can't proxy cards, you can't even have them altered. It is an option that can't be taken in the first place. In THAT world, the control WotC has over tournament-sanctioned Magic extends from mere cooperation between the people who write the rules and enforce them and are governed by them to physical laws of reality. In this perspective, the voices that are already systemically removed from playing Magic do not even have proxies as little steps into being able to play with the cards they need. Sorry if this was a wall of text and pretentious but you got me thinking, and I thought this was a great video.
No, not pretentious at all! I understood these points perfectly well. Thanks for sharing them! "EDH itself is effectively a house-rule gone mainstream." My attitude entirely. And that's a VERY good point about Arena moving towards more and tighter control. This is one of the reasons why I don't really play or enjoy games on Arena. Games there feel much less holistic, much less expressive-and experimental!
It's a shame TH-cam stopped allowing the community-supported closed captions, as I'd love to share this with my Spanish speaking friends and I could have helped with that scripting. Liked and subscribed for the algorithm anyways.
Very interesting video and an important topic. My thoughts on it: - What I think should be considered when making proxies is that they need to have all relevant information clearly visible on it. I'd like to be able to pick up the card and see exactly what it does, not everyone knows from the top of their head what Grim Monolith does. If information is missing or illegible, it might cause confusion and unnecessary mistakes. So if you can't / don't want to print out a proxy, at least make some effort to legibly write down what it says on a piece of paper. (It's especially cool if you personalise your proxies with some sick art!) - Aspiring to own the "real" cards isn't something bad necessarily. It shouldn't put restrictions on players either, of course. But after playing a while with proxies and finally getting one of the important pieces of my deck as a "real" card can be a really good feeling, and that's ok. That is, however, something personal and no one else can tell me wether I should have such an aspiraton or not.
I do prefer "real" cards over proxies, but that's a principle I apply to myself more than other players. The only negative experience I've had with proxies was when someone had a 100% xeroxed Narset deck and completely pubstomped the rest of the table with zero warning. Mostly... I just want everyone involved to have fun.
Proxies and Playtest cards don’t drive originality in my area. It drives monotony and people end up making the same powerful cards that they don’t understand.
I sometimes wonder if Magic could exist in non-collectable form. Where cards were printed to attempt to roughly match desirability / need at cost. The entire concept of artificial rarity might make for an interesting video. Much less practical discussion than this one. But something to think about. It's also scary to think about such a game not being able to exist. How much is scarcity actually part of the experience? For better or worse? And if it's easier to get, and less addictive, does it lose out to games that are willing to make more ethically questionable choices. Man, I could link random stuff to larger social constructs all day. Neat video.
my personal philosophy is to not proxy what I don't have or intend to possibly buy. However I am very privileged and invite others to proxy away, I only ask that I can tell what it is from 5 ft. away
so i am somewhere in the middle as far as proxies go. i use proxy decks fairly frequently, but i tend to avoid using proxies of cards i would never reasonably get on my own. so if a card is something i consider to be extremely expensive, i will either not proxy it, or i will have another option i can swap in if my opponent is not okay with proxying expensive cards. really thats mostly a restriction i place on myself so i am not just proxying OG dual lands constantly. Or if i do proxy a card i see as expensive, i did it with a very specific purpose in mind, not just "this card is good and i want it". for example i might proxy a Mana Crypt for use in a deck with a Coin Flip theme, but not for every deck. if my opponent isn't okay with a proxied bulk common, I'll just grab a deck i have actually "fleshed out". but my friend group is actually okay with proxies, to a greater extent than i expected. in my case, i just sleeve basic lands akin to your proxied grim monolith. the main drawback being i can't really box decks because of the extra thickness that adds. i still gotta buy ink from time to time, but its a lot less expensive than actually buying those cards for real constantly. and im not trying to pass them off as a tournament legal copy. one thing i am curious about your stance on is custom cards. My friend group will occasionally make cards, typically commanders (but always for use in commander exclusively), if there is a deck they want to play that isn't supported by any existing commander. We don't much care about where the idea came from, it just needs to be run by everyone else first.
Three things, Art, readability and balance. Art and shinnies are part of what the card game as to offer. I think it make the game more enjoyable as well as more readable. I need to see your maze of ith on the table or I will forget it. Readability is important to keep the pace of the game, your opponent don't know all the cards existing or might not remember the textbox. Words and loopholes are important. Finally if you use proxies for the sake of powering up your deck, be mindful about this, don't show yourself to a casual table with a cEDH deck only asking "Are you fine with proxies?". Proxies are fine, but I wouldn't play a deck full of basic lands with names written on them. So Please, if you use proxy, print the 'real' card colored face and sleeve it on a basic land.
I have no issue with proxies as long as they are at least higher quality ones. Now if your testing cards for your deck markers on cards is fine but for me the end result should have a little effort put into it.
As long as the card says what it does, I have no problem with proxies on any level. If it just says GRIM MONOLITH, I'm not as willing to play against it until it has DOESNT UNTAP DURING UNTAP STEP, TAP: ADD 3 COLORLESS, PAY 3 GENERIC: UNTAP or something to that effect on it. I guess what I'm saying is proxies are best when they satisfy RtC EtC.
Most people i know who don't like proxies see ownership as a means of moderating people's deckbuilding, not necessarily as a conviction to ownership or capital. I think that they are putting the blame in the wrong place, but nonetheless, it is a factor.
What if there's an answer somewhere in the middle? What if all paper tournaments at the ptq level and up required submitted decklists prior to the event, and wotc provided a "proxied" deck to each player at a rental fee for use during that day. All decks are a flat rate. This permits players to enter tournaments at the same economic benchmark but also encourages "real" card collection in order to qualify for PTQ+ events. Just an idea!
Haven't watched the video in whole yet and sorry about that but having seen the thesis, I am completely on board. Right now, I live in Vietnam where we have a small but incredibly passionate playerbase. I acknowledge my relative privilege and frankly enjoy the freedom to indulge in MtG like I couldn't before when I was a broke high schooler (and in fact turned away from the game as a college kid because I wanted my money to go to things I found more productive than luxury cardboard rectangles). However, frankly, no one here is under any illusions of the accessibility of the game. I enjoy building decks with the relatively limited cards I own instead of printing too many but I have a couple decks with sharpied Sol Rings and Dark Rituals. Just today I was playing against a deck someone clearly painstakingly proxied out. No one at the table bothered with anything except how to answer to the threat. We're out here to play a game and while away an afternoon in a wholesome and friendly manner. Getting hung up on ZOMG Y U NO USE BLING BLING CARD NO GET IN VIETNAM goes against the spirit of that.
Thanks so much for sharing this perspective from the Vietnamese player base! This is really good to know. I'm glad y'all are doing whatever you can to play the game and enjoy yourselves.
I wanna vs the person , not their pockets . Mtg will die if your average person with responsibilities , or not a lot of funds can't play . BTW I love the video . And a closer comparison instead of capitalism would be the diamond industry. Carbon is the most.common thin on the planet , yet diamonds are rare and valuable due to "authenticating " and purposefully shorting the supply vs demand .
Magic: The Gathering, the game, does not exist on paper. It is entirely within our heads. How we represent physical game objects is like language. It is not incorrect to manifest your thoughts as English, French, or Chinese so long as you’re fulfilling what is desired in communication. Just as well, it cannot be wrong to represent a card however you wish so long as it’s functional and satisfactory to playing the game. So long as your game object functional, it should only then be an issue of aesthetic value and nothing else, but this can also be largely fixed via proxying.
This is something that has been coming up between my friends and i coming into commander from standard, its like damn, should i get this 50$ phyrexian altar or a whole budget deck for 50$
I have no problem playing with people who are using proxy cards (as I sometimes use proxies myself) there is Someone in my playgroup who complains a lot about proxies saying proxy cards can boost a deck's power so and so and winning using proxy cards are not valid anyway So isn't it the same as seeing a Porsche owner complain because he lost to a tuned Mazda?
Hah! That's a fun analogy. Another analogy is: imagine a Porsche owner racing another Porsche owner. The first guy loses. He finds out that the other Porsche owner doesn't own that car-that he just borrowed it from another friend. Getting upset at someone for using proxies is like the first guy getting upset at the second guy.
Love the underlying thesis and agree with your opinion. Not sure I agree with the logic to build into it though. Transitive property doesn't seem to apply here (i.e. a dog is an animal; a cat is an animal; therefore, a dog is a cat??). A different lens to look at it is that one is a collectible and a game piece and the other is just a game piece. Anyway, I'm overall enjoying your videos - keep it up!
Glad to hear you're enjoying them! My core claim is that proxies are valid game pieces, despite the reasoning that says otherwise. Though yeah: for those who want to own cards in order to collect/invest, great! But if those same people don't want others to use proxies, I argue that their logic is predicated on a supposition that the proxy-users don't share.
Great video! I'm really pro-proxies and have never thought about this logic of ownership thing and about the actual cost of printing a Magic card. What's your position on the chinese counterfeit cards? Some people say it's "bad for the game" but honestly, I think the mere existance of those is an issue for wizards to solve, not me. Like some other guy said in a comment below, "It's like buying a generic football instead of an NFL original football. Either way, you are playing the same game."
I think that misrepresenting something you sell isn't good (i.e. selling a counterfeit to someone who thinks it's printed officially by WotC), but I don't have a general position right now on the existence of counterfeits. I've thought a bit about forgeries in the art world, but not as much about counterfeits of mass-produced products.
I feel like that ultimately Rule 0 is what you should rely on. If you are in a scenario where someone doesn't feel comfortable with proxies, no matter there reason, their wishes should be respected. If somebody is using budget as a barrier for others, then just don't play with them. Expensive cards don't matter if nobody wants to play with you.
That latter point is right on. Though I'd encourage people in this hypothetical pod to have a good discussion about why that person isn't comfortable with proxies… because folks should be able to account for that kinda comfort or discomfort, I think. Particularly if that discomfort essentially excludes others in the playgroup.
good players are also being held back from formats because of the $. i once won a legacy event that allowed proxy decks. it was a small event with like 8 ppl and i was one of three people who picked pre made proxy deck that was made for ppl who didnt own a legacy deck. i ended up beating some dude who owned his legacy deck in finals. i played white weenie they played grixis show n tell
Good coverage of the topic of proxies themselves. What about how the introduction of proxies to a playgroup pushes the power levels higher and higher? That’s my problem with proxies. It takes incredible restraint and a headache of conversation to agree on what is too powerful and what isn’t. Suddenly cEDH becomes the norm. And I don’t want to play cEDH, and I should have the option to not have to play that high level format where everyone guns for a turn 4 combo win.
I've seen this happen, for sure. Sadly (or happily, I'm not sure!) I think the solution here is to just have that tough conversation with your playgroup. My recommendation for those convos is to always have them over food.
It might also be smart for everyone in the group to essentially proxy up whatever competitive list they want, and all have "that deck" in case folks wanna play with a mostly competitive mindset.
Gaea's Craddle was the first card I ever had a proxy of but it wasn't sharpied onto a basic though, it was professionaly done for $7. I really love mtg and edh specifically but I'm not willing to spend thousands of dollars on playing cards, especially when I don't even own the home I'm living in. The thing that really hit home for me was when you held up that penny and said this is how much it cost them to make that $100+ card you'd like to play. I'm definitely pro proxy, I want every one to be able to push the power levels of their decks to the max without having to starve until their next paycheck.
For personal preference alone, I prefer to own and use real cards. But at this point I have so many decks that I refuse to keep rebuying expensive staples so now I'm starting to buy etsy proxies with fun art of expensive cards I own. As far as my opponents go, idgaf as long as I can read it
The only thing I don't like about proxies is the (rare) person who doesn't print rules text on a significant part of the deck. At least, if you can, take the time to either 1: have a book of rules text with you corresponding with the cards in your deck, or print a copy of the card and slide it over a token in a sleeve. Part of the accessibility argument is not only accessibility to the materials, but accessibility to the rule-set, which does take some responsibility from the player to ensure. Writing "brainstorm" on a plain and expecting everyone to automatically know that card is (while not always wrong) definitely a part of gatekeeping without careful treatment from you, the player. Other than that, yes. Proxy everything. The only legit cards I have any more are pauper cards, because I'll gladly dump 40 bucks into an LGS to get real cards which feel nicer than printed out cheap proxies. Printed out /nice/ proxies though, especially for EDH, are 100% my jam.
This was a fantastic analysis of commodity fetishization and EDH's modes of class identity and it's relationship with the Commodity of Magic. As a Marxist and avid Magic player I really appreciate this.
@@StackedEDH To say the least. The only issue I would have with simple proxies is their occasional tendancy to affect the game with insufficient text. Someone writing "Grim Monolith" on a basic plains may not remember that the untap ability costs 4 and might confuse it with Basalt Monolith's ability that costs 3. For this reason, my playgroup pushes for the alternate art proxies available on Etsy and other sites. It clearly depicts what the card does, prints all the rules and casting costs, and ends up helping small artists that likely don't work for a toxic corporation (controling the means of their own production with artisan creation). This eliminates "counterfeits" from becoming an issue while also making the rules clear to everyone.
@@alexanderstewart594 Yes! Absolutely. I'm a big fan of proxies with all the relevant details on them-though now that most players have access to a card lookup site/app on their phones, I'm less concerned with legibility. But I'm also a big fan of buying from artists/individuals.
@@StackedEDH I've stopped polishing my nails for now but I'll do it again in the future. I'm so bad at it that it takes way too much energy to focus on doing it well than I currently can afford to spend on it :/
I'm passed the intro, I'm going to give my take here. And then allow myself the luxury of watching the video knowing not if my answer is going to match with yours. In short: Proxies are fine. I don't like a land card vandalised with a marker, at least print it out and slide that print out into the sleeve. More nuanced, I think the different reasons for proxying have variable levels of acceptable. If it's because they are wanting to test out their deck with a Grim Monolith and don't yet own one. I have no issue with that, if the reason is grime monolith is expensive, then I have no problem with that either. I give a pass to most expensive cards. And if someone is wanting to completely proxy a deck for testing purposes (because they want to make sure their investment isn't a waste of money) then of course. For mid-costing cards in their 20-40's I'd rather they own the real thing. But can understand them proxying, while they look to trade into a copy of the card they need. And I'll even facilitate that with them by buying or trading cards I own to help them raise that cash. A notable additional exception, is if they have multiple decks that run the same card and they have limited copies, I know they own it. I'm fine with them not having it physically in every deck. I would prefer in that situation them to then keep those kinds of cards in a separate box/binder. And when they cast the proxy they can go to the box/binder and find the original they own. A friend of mine does this. And the only complaint I have is he doesn't indicate on the placeholder what card it is a proxy of, so I need to get onto that with him.
"And I'll even facilitate that with them by buying or trading cards I own to help them raise that cash." This is great! I think you've got a reasonable and charitable approach to the question of proxies. Thanks for sharing it!
A great argument. Well made and nice to see background research and assessment to articulate the financial points. Thanks for this. Hope an extra sub helps with producing more. Also would recommend Spice8Rack’s proxy vid that you raised. th-cam.com/video/VALgm1qkeFE/w-d-xo.html (No, I don’t agree with Megan that software piracy is a good comparison defence for proxing, but 100% on board with the rest of that video.)
I am pro proxy and what I see most people who are arguing against the "you should own real cards you play" thing is that people really do feel like they are entitled to be the only person playing with a $500 card, if they paid $500. I do not know why people may feel this way, but I suspect that a social contract, and a constructed social order are in fact, the reason why. Hasbro/WOTC expects, and the fans of the game do what is expected, even outside the realm of sanctioned events. Both the pro and anti-proxy people see the opposition as behaving in an "entitled way". "I am entitled to free cards and to play whatever fake cards I want, and call it magic" -> entitlement. "I am entitled to win and defeat your deck because I spent $8000 and you spent $5 making your deck" -> entitlement. Neither one of them are wrong. There are a lot of entitled overgrown childish people playing this game. Let's all cut out the childishness. If someone wants to play against someone else's wallet, don't judge them. If someone doesn't want to play against someone else's wallet, don't judge them. There are different formats, there are different pods and communities. I for one would spend more money at a game store that encouraged proxy driven "friday night magic" as a casual format, as opposed to a tournament focused format.
An interesting take, but I find it very hard to believe that a set has a print run of 2.5 billion cards. The reddit source jumps from 4th edition had 500 million to, therefore, modern sets are probably 2.5 billion. I did not see any real logic behind that jump. Cartumundi states that in 2014-2015 they produced about 14.7 billion cards globally (cartamundi.fr/fr/press/cartamundi-winner-of-company-of-the-year-in-new-york/). They make A LOT of cards for a lot of companies (Bicycle playing cards, etc). That would mean that in a year where there are 4 sets of MtG cards, at 2.5 billion per set, they would account for 68% of all the cards Cartumundi makes in a year. I find that highly unlikely. Not to be that guy arguing on the internet, but I'm sure WoTC's cost is more than a fraction of a cent per card. Of course, at WORST it would be the 8c you saw, and probably lower than that. Your points all still stand, but I think some of the numbers are a bit hyperbolic. Personally I am all for proxies that don't detract from the game. If you scribble "Mana Vault" on an Island and I don't know what the rules of that card are, that's at the least annoying, at worst leads to frustration with gameplay. It also makes it hard to look at a table and recognize quickly what cards are. I hope people at least go to the effort of making their proxy cards easy to understand and identify. Like wizards does with their multitude of Secret Lairs... oh wait.
Thanks for that info; that's very good to know! (I'll never be unhappy when someone provides me more and better data. This is great!) Though I didn't intend to use hyperbole-based on my cocktail napkin math, I thought ~$0.01 per card couldn't be that far off. And I suppose $0.08 per card still isn't, relative to the prices that many cards see on the secondary market. And I agree: I prefer players to use proxies that are visibly unique and/or have rules text written on them. Thanks again!
Excellent vid! I think another issue people have with proxies that they don't realize is that they, like wizards, think that the game of Magic IS the copywritten symbols, art, and names, and IS the officially printed cards. But to me, this actually misses a more important point. All the cardboard in the world doesn't make a game of Magic. The IP of Magic is not the same thing as the GAME of Magic. The GAME of Magic only exists when we, the players, bring it to life. We create the game of Magic through (for lack of a better term) our labor. And in this way, it is WE who own the game of Magic. Subtract the player from Magic and sure, the product remains. But the game ceases to exist. And yes this is true of some other things that corporations claim to own, but when a game depends on network capital in the way Magic does, it's something worth noting.
I agree with the video... but some of these $$$ cards are simply OP and they keep them out of my casual games :P I guess I could just ask them politely not use them and if they do I just refuse to play
The only inaccessibility issues one should have in playing Commander should be when their resources are denied by a stax player.
I'm always "happy" to see a proxied or a real Humility across the table. (Not quite true.)
Bless Contamination
I've been playing MtG for 20 years. I own thousands of dollars worth of reserved list cards and blinged out commander decks. Part of the hobby for me is collecting cards that stoke a sense of nostalgia for different periods in my life. With all that said, I have ZERO problems with people using proxies for casual play. The amount of fun you can have playing Magic shouldn't be proportional to the amount of cash you've spent on your deck.
YES. Yes, yes, yes. I love this approach (and operate similarly). Thanks for sharing it, Michael!
I feel like I've watched the Manifesto for anarcho-proxysm. And I couldn't be happier about it. Awesome work (not in the wage slavery sense), keep it up!
LOVE IT. Thanks so much, Davide!
Anarcho-proxysm
It's one way to topple the commodity form.
Holding up a sharpie and finishing with "Seize the means of production" left me so happy, thank you
I'm very happy to hear that, Leanne. Thank you. :)
My feelings on proxies is something that's changed and conflicted a lot over the years. When my friends and I were younger there was one person in our group who ran proxies and I didn't like it because it broke the power level of our group since the rest of us were mostly just using the recently rotated standard cards we all had. Then for a bit I thought proxies were fine as long as you actually planned on buying them. As I've gotten older I've realized my issues were with the deck power balance in the group not the proxies and I honestly feel bad about how I used to guilt him about bringing them. Now I have no issues with proxies, the cost of mtg is ridiculous at best and I just want us to have a good time.
I hope you don't feel bad about those moments in the past! You've understood them-and yourself-more thoroughly and have changed because of that understanding. That's all we can do! Thanks for sharing this, too!
My playgroup has the "as long as you intend on buying them eventually" mindset, although there are people who proxy things like Sol Ring because they don't have enough, proxies are kind of up to the person their playing against, some people in my playgroup are totally fine playing against proxies, others prefer you have the actual cardboard. I have a deck I intend on bringing to GenCon so it only runs real cards, which can get expensive when talking about things like ABUR dual lands
I've had a very similar relationship with proxies. These days, I'll only really get bugged by a proxy when it isn't easy to identify as the card its meant to be representing- so if someone had that sharpied-Plains in their pet EDH deck for an extended period of time, I'd ask them to replace it with a proxy that looked a little more like the "real thing". EDH games are complicated enough- making the game pieces legible is important for facilitating play.
That, or when someone proxies a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. The only thing that bugs me more is some actually owning a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
i think i was the first in my group to run proxies, but it was as i was initially trying to get into commander, and just didn't have the cards. if i recall it was a Mayael the Anima deck. everything in that deck i replaced within about 3 months.
a couple of my buddies have since actually encouraged reaching higher on the power spectrum with my proxies. some of the decks i will likely never really flesh out. my groups biggest issue is when someone blows the bell curve with deck power, in particular if it is a deck that is both above our decks weight class that also feels bad to play against.
Saw Spice8Rack's shoutout of this video and after watching it I immediately binged your other videos. All were excellent.
Excellent! Thanks so much for all that attention, Chris. I hope to keep producing videos you enjoy. More soon (gameplay, piloting & politicking advice, deck techs, and more!).
My only issue with the "sharpie on a basic land" is that I'm the most experienced player in my regular playgroup. I don't have a direct issue if I write "Ophiomancer" on a card, but my playmates might not know that card, and I don't want us to spend half the game wondering about what's going on on the table, rather than having quickly recognizable cards that can be picked up and read if there's any confusion. Still I'd never tell anyone they can't write a card name on another piece of cardboard and wish "Can I use proxies?" wasn't a question that even has to be asked.
With well over 10000 unique cards noone can remember all of them. In our group we came to the conclusion that proxies are ok if they contain all rule relevant texts and are easy to read/identify.
Very well said. I've started to proxy cards more often over the last few years. I still prefer to use a "real" copy of the card when I can, but I'm fine with it if somebody sitting across from me is using proxies. As you said in the video, I'd want to play against you, not your wallet.
Excellent. I'm in a similar position; I prefer using authorized copies I own, but I have zero qualms with proxying cards up. I'm glad you enjoyed this video and its argument!
alright the hallelujah got me
I’m smiling
just discovered your channel after watching the video you did with cEDH cast on krark the Thumbless/Sakashima of a Thousand Faces (one of my favorite cEDH decks to watch and run), and I decided to check out your channel because I liked your way of thinking. Decided the best way to see what you are all about, is to see your most popular video. Gotta say, I love this video very much so, and it speaks to alot of the stuff I've tried explaining to my friends before. I didn't expect to find such a down to earth video about Class and Economics, not to mention such a well put together and dare I say relaxing video. bravo, subscribed, gonna binge more of your stuff now *smiles warmly* ^^
I had no idea Vanguard and Black Rock controlled so much capaital in the world, and, to be honest, I had never heard of them before now, so I learned alot from this video
thank you so much! this message is very kind; i'm so glad to hear i helped a little bit. and thanks for following your curiosity and finding the channel! i appreciate you very much. 🙏❤️
@@StackedEDH thanks for being awesome ^^
Proxies remind me of emulation both are questionably legal but both let you experience something you might have not been around for when it was released.
That's an interesting parallel that I'll have to think about more. I've definitely played a few games on emulators-particularly old games that I no longer have the hardware to play!
I totally agree with this comparison, and it's why I have no problems with emulation. Plus, who exactly loses out when you emulate? For profit companies? I'd rather just play my game for free, than pay them 20-70 bucks for permission to do so.
That's one of the best analogies I've ever read. My parents couldn't (or wouldn't?) buy a game boy for me, but my dad found some way to emulate Pokémon Blue on his Windows 95 PC. The feeling back then was very similar to what I feel when I get to cast my print-out Mana Crypts.
"Mark Rosewater's latest article" had me dying. I had to rewind and rewatch; I just found it so funny.
I'm really happy that got a laugh from you. :D
Where is the article?
I opened the video thinking that i would watch a "classic" pro and cons proxy video.
Heck no. That's amazing. I was hooked the whole time!
Woo! Thanks so much for saying so; really glad it hooked you.
Fantastic video. You do a great job of putting this issue into a perspective that most people should be able to digest and relate to. Very solid work!
Ahhh! Making my day over here. Thank you so much, Antonius!
This video is awesome. I'm gonna print that Mana crypt right now.
Excellent. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video, Elias!
I call that the HP edition. (Hewlett-packard)
I've got quite a few from that set 😂
@@MentalMisplay lol, i love it
@@StackedEDH I wish I could take the credit. But i proxied that joke too.
This was awesome and really captured many of the feelings and conversations about proxies we hear in our community, your influences were well chosen and came through =)
Oh fantastic! I'm so glad to hear that. Thanks for letting me know.
I'm so glad to see somebody talk about this bluntly. I'm so tired of so much of Magic's experience being locked away behind a class wall. Playing cEDH, Legacy, or Vintage shouldn't mean having to be upper class
💯
Some really great points here, and your research and organization is impeccable. Keep up the great content!
thank you!
I'm really glad someone put out a video that actually talks about the indoctrination of worth and ownership. For a lot of people the only way they can justify buying expensive cards in the first place is if they believe they are buying the right to play it. In reality all they are buying is the right to play it in a tournament setting as well as the right to sell it again for it's market value.
It's like people who went into debt to get a degree that now think everyone else should have to do the same.
this is very well-said! thanks so much!
The "feels bad" from non-ownership hits me so hard sometimes. I still struggle with my own desire to have "the real thing", which itself shows that I consider one version of the card concept as "real" and the other versions as "not real". This video helped validate that one can shift perspective about what the concept of "real" even is. Is Grim Monolith a set of properties for a game piece, or is it a card? What happens if we consider letting go of the notion of it as a card?
Those are good questions, and I'm happy to hear this video helped you feel less bad and more aware of your thoughts.
I was hooked on your channel with your first video but man, this one really tightened the grip!
Thanks for content!
WOOO! So glad to hear it, Sav. Thank you!
I use make playing cards for my proxies, they are basically blinged out proxies, with cooler art work so makes my decks look and feel more like my own. So their is also an artistic argument towards why to use proxies too. ;)
Absolute smash of a magic video mate! Subbed. So much good content here
Thanks so much, Jesse! Glad you dig the work ♥️🙏
The absolute best video I have seen in a very long time.
I love hearing that! Woo! Thanks so much for saying so, Quantum!
Yooooooo. Ken CLAPPIN on em!!! Feelin this one big-time.
I feel it's a little disingenuous to equate the cost of simply printing a Magic card to the cost of making a Magic card. There's a lot of work that goes into designing a card before it gets sent to a printer- there's the work of the game designers to determine the mechanical workings of the card, the work of development and in-house WOTC playtesters to (try) to make sure it's balanced appropriately, the work of the artist who was commissioned to create the amazing artwork, the work of the visual designer who may have designed an alternate frame for the card, the work of the creative team that created the fictional fantasy plane that informs the name and flavor text of the card, and by extension the work of all the people and teams who work at WOTC who enable the existence of the game: the people in customer service, in HR, the folks in marketing and distribution, and so on and so on. And yes, due to the nature of capitalism and the imposed pressure to return on investment, none of the people doing that work are receiving compensation commensurate to the value of their work. But it's not as though, when I go to my LGS and buy a booster pack of 15 cards for $3.99, that $3.84 of that money is going straight towards the profits of Hasbro and its investors or whatever. When we buy sealed Magic product, we're not only paying for only the cardboard game pieces that are sealed within- we're also financing the infrastructure that creates the game.
And I know that this doesn't really address the heart of your video- that the Magic community's attitudes towards proxies are influenced by our larger culture's attitudes towards ownership and value. And I know that all of the work done by WOTC and the artists and printers they commissioned to create all the Grim Monolith's printed in 1999 in Urza's Legacy can't come close to justify the $250 price tag- that's a product of the second market and the Reserved List's artificial scarcity.
Anyway... yeah. Let people play with proxies in Commander. Rule 0 is there for a reason, and it's to ensure that everyone can find a way to enjoy the game.
hold up, is NakeyJakey a Magic player?!? also Rhystic Studies is such a hidden gem!
I don't think so-though that'd be sweet! I've just been inspired so much by his videos. And yeah, Sam/Rhystic Studies makes such beautiful work.
Fantastic video! I'm absolutely unopposed to proxies, but I've never really used them myself other than in CEDH decks. I've never really been able to articulate WHY I don't use them (e.g. why a deck isn't "done" until I actually own all of the cards), but you did a great job breaking it down.
You earned a new subscriber, can't wait to see more.
Excellent. I'm glad I might've helped you piece some things together that were bugging ya! That's excellent. And thanks so much for the sub!
Depends on how many decks you keep built and what kind of power level you play at. Like alot of CEDH/high power level players dont want to have to buy like 3+ mana crypts or have to own sets of dual or fetch lands for all the decks they want to play and dont want to have to constantly swap their legit cards around between how ever many decks.
So you may not use proxies for said reason.
BIPOC checking here and I’m still scratching my head at your point with accessibility and assertion that we’re all poor and can’t afford a booster pack.
hello! i don't make that claim, and if you understood me to be making that claim i'm sorry for my imprecision. i meant only to say that some BIPOC folks have criticized Magic for its barriers to entry-and that it's important to listen to those voices and their criticisms and then do something to lower or destroy those barriers ❤️
@@StackedEDH thanks for the reply and for clearing that up!
This is a great video. I'm happy to see a critical, class based analysis of proxies, and I have an incredible amount of unity with what you're saying. I want to throw in two points that I think complicate matters.
1. The lifeblood of the game is the secondary market. In particular, the LGS. If proxy use overtook the use for officially printed cards, then the secondary market wouldn't be able to support the LGS.
2. I personally don't like proxies, but I really don't mind if my opponents use them. Its aesthetic as much as anything for me. But, I started playing magic in 1994 and have a lot of cards, including many very expensive reserved list cards. So, if you use proxies in your deck against me, that's not going to unbalance things in your favor. However, if I were a new player who had the same desire to use only official cards, if my opponents were proxying powerful and expensive cards, then my desire to play with only official cards would put me at a distinct disadvantage that I would likely come to resent.
Combining these two points: Our LGS hosts a monthly cEDH tournament that I play in. I love it, and I want to play against the most competitive cEDH decks, not limited by accessibility. Normally, these tournaments have about 12-20 people, which is awesome. The store holds tournaments because it wants to make money. Its a small business, not Hasbro, and it wants to keep the lights and make what profits it can. All of the entry money just goes into paying for the cEDH cards that are in the prize pool, like Mana Crypts and things like that. It makes money from the tournaments by selling cards for the tournaments. If everyone just proxied their decks then there is no incentive for the LGS to hold the tournament,. They want to sell cards. The event probably wouldn't even fire because not enough people could afford to build a legal deck. So instead the tournament allows 10 proxies, which covers the most egregiously expensive cards, but the store still gets to make money. People get to play without feeling priced totally out, they can build optimized cEDH decks, and the store makes money. This is all to say that it isn't a issue with no middle ground.
To me, this is the way forward, temporarily. A patch on the problem. The long-term solution is for WotC to print the overpriced cards until they are much more affordable. They make their money off of sealed product, after all. $20 cards on the secondary market are fine in moderation. $50+ and its much more problematic. It isn't like they couldn't affect this through their reprint policy.
It would be no problem for play groups to give some proxy limit amongst themselves, and for playing with randoms in stores the stores could encourage a similar thing to keep things simple.
Anyway, liked and subscribe. Great channel. :)
Love the video, and most importantly, totally agree with your point of view. Everyone who wants should be able to play the game, not only who can afford it; the joy and fun that this game brings to you, shouldn't be denied by money matters. Big support from Italy
I love this, Tommaso. Grazie mille and ciao from Santa Fe!
I just want to say that you deserve WAY more subscribers!
Personally, I'm pro proxies in commander and our play group allows them to be used. We feel similarly to you and the CEDH community, and I will be stealing that "play the player, not their wallet" line.
Based video, I look forward to watching your channel grow in the future.
You are making this video talking about class, but I just saw a game where you played QUEEN Marchesa, curious
Jokes aside, loved the video, you made me think about the value we put on ownership, and I damn myself for not thinking about it sooner, being a joyless anarchocomunist myself. Great video, so glad I found you. Cheers
Thanks so much, Diana. I'm glad I could help in a little way.
The shoutout to NakeyJakey at the end was just the cherry on top of this incredible video
🙏🙏🙏 thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
Good video. Got a bit complex on some notes but I do agree with you. I do understand tho why some people wanna avoid proxies. It can destroy the art feeling. I wouldn't actually like to play vs your proxy grim monolith. It would be boring to look at and sometimes even confusing. But I understand what you mean. I don't have a problem with proxies. And I do sometimes play vs decks and players where the entier decks are just white paper with text on it.
I understand your appreciation of the aesthetic side of Magic-I watch your videos and see your dedication to buying and protecting these works of art! But it sounds to me that you don't let your aesthetic repulsion or dislike affect you so much that you're unwilling to play with people who can't or choose not to afford prettier versions of cards. Which is great! And that's primarily my point: it's more equitable and inclusive to widely accept proxies, even though some of them make the game pieces less beautiful.
Thank you for the thoughtful piece! This put into words many of my subconscious impressions, and will be my go-to video to refer people to when they question the use of proxies. :")
Lovely! I'm so glad to hear it. Thank you, Saoirse!
My personal stance in the matter tends to be that I want to own a single copy of a card before I proxy it, but since I've just started with cEDH, I probably won't carry over that mindset there.
While I am 100% for Proxies, the 'Sharpie on a Basic Land' does not fly with me. I want to be able to look at a card and know all of the relevant information. Looking at a Plains that says Grim Monolith causes me to have to repeatedly ask what that card does, or look it up. This slows down the game, makes it more difficult for me to play, and in turn I have less fun.
So please just print out your cards at staples or something so I can read them.
This was awesome. Found your channel via @sirenofathena on twitter. My BA in Sociology was based on LGBT parenting and I did a lot of studying of Marx. This video and your points really resonate. Cant wait to see more!
Thanks so much, Ian! Really happy to hear this. And that sounds like a cool field of study!
What is this TH-cam making a good suggestion for once. Great video, I been in a few conversations about proxies in my life with magic it is always interesting were people stand on it. Something about "real" card just makes me feel good, its a sickness, but if the choice was between a game with proxies, or no game. I'd take a game with proxies.
This is so great! I love political / social science essays AND Commander. Can’t wait to see what else you bring to the table!
Thanks so much, Jarren! So glad to hear it.
Thank you for making this.
I can't imagine playing in a group that tries to disallow proxies. The only proxy rule I find even remotely reasonable is something to the tune of 'proxies must physically represent the original card' (for readability / referencability purposes)
Since covid, my playgroup has moved to an online simulation program that is essentially 100% proxy. It's had upsides and downsides for our experience, the upside being that you can have many decks with obscure cards that are built quickly, and the downside being that everyone having access to the best and most expensive cards has almost always resulted in a less fun format.
I've never had an issue with proxying as long as it's not disrupting power balance. It's already feel bad enough when someone pulls out cEDH when everyone is playing goofy theme decks but it's eye rollingly painful if they pull out a 75%+ proxied cEDH deck. Also if someone's built a deck and proxied a $2500 manabase for the sake of it I'd probably make a comment. But if they built a spooktober deck and proxied All Hallow's Eve and Chains of Mephistopheles fuck yeah I'm all about that.
Fascinating video. Thank you for such high effort, cerebral content. Certainly food for thought.
I think I would be broadly more amenable to a player using proxies provided they were high effort productions. It would definitely bug me if somebody rolled up to a table with a deck full of sharpie enhanced basic lands.
However proxies are not a feature of my playgroup and I personally get satisfaction from the hobby in owning and playing with the real deal.
I will often build commander decks that allow me to use the handful of EDH playable beta/unlimited/early expansion set commons and uncommons that I do own. I guess it’s sort of important to me that these cards are still played.
Wonderfully presented. Thank you
I'm glad you like it, Ben! Thanks so much for saying so.
it's really interesting with the discussion of "real" decks that you bring in here. There are game scholars (Metagaming by Stephanie Boluk and Patrick Lemieux) that argue that the ways players negotiate playing within around and apart from games is the actual reality of gameplay experiences. Anyone whose played tabletop games is primed for this attitude there is so much to house rules and how that is a key part of playing those games, even if it's by complete accident, you don't need to buy every D&D book to play D&D (oh look another WotC property). There is a false sense of reality made within game spaces (often by the companies behind these games) about what is and isn't allowed that creates a tension which you did an excellent job identifying.
EDH itself is effectively a house-rule gone mainstream, and all the decks friends and I have where we use commanders that are not legendary creatures are extensions of that house rule. There's that one MtG variant everyone tries where you have a spells and a lands deck and choose one to draw from every turn instead. Cube is not all that innovative to draft beyond saying "hey you can just put your cards back into packs and draft again and see if something new happens."
Even official formats rely on understandings of cards that are not directly printed on them: Pauper uses what is just a way to sort booster packs so you don't give players too many good cards at once. Hell, even banlists (since that's the fun hot topic right now) rely on knowledge that is external to the game that you have to buy into and agree with.
The space for affordances like these that are tied to but just different enough from Magic: The Gathering-as-written is WAY wider open than Hasbro wants people to believe or even think is possible.
Which leads to an interesting development for many people's concerns with WotC trying to move to Arena more and more and commander being the most played format. The only space where WotC CAN literally tell you how to play with your cards, and limit how they can be put next to each other is in a virtual world where they have hard coded those rules into reality. It's a place where the rules are smooth and perfect (outside of bugs of course) where you literally can't proxy cards, you can't even have them altered. It is an option that can't be taken in the first place. In THAT world, the control WotC has over tournament-sanctioned Magic extends from mere cooperation between the people who write the rules and enforce them and are governed by them to physical laws of reality. In this perspective, the voices that are already systemically removed from playing Magic do not even have proxies as little steps into being able to play with the cards they need.
Sorry if this was a wall of text and pretentious but you got me thinking, and I thought this was a great video.
No, not pretentious at all! I understood these points perfectly well. Thanks for sharing them!
"EDH itself is effectively a house-rule gone mainstream." My attitude entirely.
And that's a VERY good point about Arena moving towards more and tighter control. This is one of the reasons why I don't really play or enjoy games on Arena. Games there feel much less holistic, much less expressive-and experimental!
When people complain about my proxies I roll my eyes and pull out my slabbed copy and explain it's just a place holder
I have a problem with sharpie on lands when it cost less then $15 to colour print and sleeve a commander deck.
Great video ken. We need to spread the idea of play the player, not their wallet!
amen!
It's a shame TH-cam stopped allowing the community-supported closed captions, as I'd love to share this with my Spanish speaking friends and I could have helped with that scripting. Liked and subscribed for the algorithm anyways.
That's so kind. Thank you, Miguel! I'm sorry TH-cam removed that option as well-booooo.
Very interesting video and an important topic. My thoughts on it:
- What I think should be considered when making proxies is that they need to have all relevant information clearly visible on it. I'd like to be able to pick up the card and see exactly what it does, not everyone knows from the top of their head what Grim Monolith does. If information is missing or illegible, it might cause confusion and unnecessary mistakes. So if you can't / don't want to print out a proxy, at least make some effort to legibly write down what it says on a piece of paper. (It's especially cool if you personalise your proxies with some sick art!)
- Aspiring to own the "real" cards isn't something bad necessarily. It shouldn't put restrictions on players either, of course. But after playing a while with proxies and finally getting one of the important pieces of my deck as a "real" card can be a really good feeling, and that's ok. That is, however, something personal and no one else can tell me wether I should have such an aspiraton or not.
vangaurd and blackrock both sound extremely evil.
I do prefer "real" cards over proxies, but that's a principle I apply to myself more than other players. The only negative experience I've had with proxies was when someone had a 100% xeroxed Narset deck and completely pubstomped the rest of the table with zero warning.
Mostly... I just want everyone involved to have fun.
Agreed. Pubstomping is cruel. This is why Rule 0 is so important.
Proxies and Playtest cards don’t drive originality in my area. It drives monotony and people end up making the same powerful cards that they don’t understand.
I sometimes wonder if Magic could exist in non-collectable form. Where cards were printed to attempt to roughly match desirability / need at cost. The entire concept of artificial rarity might make for an interesting video. Much less practical discussion than this one. But something to think about.
It's also scary to think about such a game not being able to exist. How much is scarcity actually part of the experience? For better or worse? And if it's easier to get, and less addictive, does it lose out to games that are willing to make more ethically questionable choices.
Man, I could link random stuff to larger social constructs all day. Neat video.
my personal philosophy is to not proxy what I don't have or intend to possibly buy. However I am very privileged and invite others to proxy away, I only ask that I can tell what it is from 5 ft. away
so i am somewhere in the middle as far as proxies go. i use proxy decks fairly frequently, but i tend to avoid using proxies of cards i would never reasonably get on my own. so if a card is something i consider to be extremely expensive, i will either not proxy it, or i will have another option i can swap in if my opponent is not okay with proxying expensive cards. really thats mostly a restriction i place on myself so i am not just proxying OG dual lands constantly. Or if i do proxy a card i see as expensive, i did it with a very specific purpose in mind, not just "this card is good and i want it". for example i might proxy a Mana Crypt for use in a deck with a Coin Flip theme, but not for every deck.
if my opponent isn't okay with a proxied bulk common, I'll just grab a deck i have actually "fleshed out". but my friend group is actually okay with proxies, to a greater extent than i expected. in my case, i just sleeve basic lands akin to your proxied grim monolith. the main drawback being i can't really box decks because of the extra thickness that adds. i still gotta buy ink from time to time, but its a lot less expensive than actually buying those cards for real constantly. and im not trying to pass them off as a tournament legal copy.
one thing i am curious about your stance on is custom cards. My friend group will occasionally make cards, typically commanders (but always for use in commander exclusively), if there is a deck they want to play that isn't supported by any existing commander. We don't much care about where the idea came from, it just needs to be run by everyone else first.
Three things, Art, readability and balance.
Art and shinnies are part of what the card game as to offer. I think it make the game more enjoyable as well as more readable. I need to see your maze of ith on the table or I will forget it.
Readability is important to keep the pace of the game, your opponent don't know all the cards existing or might not remember the textbox. Words and loopholes are important.
Finally if you use proxies for the sake of powering up your deck, be mindful about this, don't show yourself to a casual table with a cEDH deck only asking "Are you fine with proxies?".
Proxies are fine, but I wouldn't play a deck full of basic lands with names written on them.
So Please, if you use proxy, print the 'real' card colored face and sleeve it on a basic land.
Yo finally someone who thinks like me in magic. I get so much push back on twitter for these thoughts. Where you live homie let’s get a game in.
if you're ever in santa fe, new mexico, hit me up!
@@StackedEDH ok bet!
Excited to dig into your content dude :)
Nice! I love hearing that, panda! Thanks so much.
I have no issue with proxies as long as they are at least higher quality ones. Now if your testing cards for your deck markers on cards is fine but for me the end result should have a little effort put into it.
Great video! Very well put!
Thanks so much, Conor! So glad you like it.
As long as the card says what it does, I have no problem with proxies on any level. If it just says GRIM MONOLITH, I'm not as willing to play against it until it has DOESNT UNTAP DURING UNTAP STEP, TAP: ADD 3 COLORLESS, PAY 3 GENERIC: UNTAP or something to that effect on it. I guess what I'm saying is proxies are best when they satisfy RtC EtC.
Thanks for this video. Just subscribed
You had me at 3 parts
lol, yesssss. Thank you!
Most people i know who don't like proxies see ownership as a means of moderating people's deckbuilding, not necessarily as a conviction to ownership or capital. I think that they are putting the blame in the wrong place, but nonetheless, it is a factor.
That makes sense. And it's a good nuance to the case I present in the video. Thanks for sharing this!
I would so like to play Gitrog, but I can't, since I'm lacking Chains. :(
Preach!
What if there's an answer somewhere in the middle?
What if all paper tournaments at the ptq level and up required submitted decklists prior to the event, and wotc provided a "proxied" deck to each player at a rental fee for use during that day. All decks are a flat rate. This permits players to enter tournaments at the same economic benchmark but also encourages "real" card collection in order to qualify for PTQ+ events.
Just an idea!
Really good video handled in an erudite fashion. Kudos
thank you so much!
Haven't watched the video in whole yet and sorry about that but having seen the thesis, I am completely on board. Right now, I live in Vietnam where we have a small but incredibly passionate playerbase. I acknowledge my relative privilege and frankly enjoy the freedom to indulge in MtG like I couldn't before when I was a broke high schooler (and in fact turned away from the game as a college kid because I wanted my money to go to things I found more productive than luxury cardboard rectangles). However, frankly, no one here is under any illusions of the accessibility of the game. I enjoy building decks with the relatively limited cards I own instead of printing too many but I have a couple decks with sharpied Sol Rings and Dark Rituals. Just today I was playing against a deck someone clearly painstakingly proxied out. No one at the table bothered with anything except how to answer to the threat.
We're out here to play a game and while away an afternoon in a wholesome and friendly manner. Getting hung up on ZOMG Y U NO USE BLING BLING CARD NO GET IN VIETNAM goes against the spirit of that.
Thanks so much for sharing this perspective from the Vietnamese player base! This is really good to know. I'm glad y'all are doing whatever you can to play the game and enjoy yourselves.
I wanna vs the person , not their pockets .
Mtg will die if your average person with responsibilities , or not a lot of funds can't play
.
BTW I love the video . And a closer comparison instead of capitalism would be the diamond industry.
Carbon is the most.common thin on the planet , yet diamonds are rare and valuable due to "authenticating " and purposefully shorting the supply vs demand .
Magic: The Gathering, the game, does not exist on paper. It is entirely within our heads. How we represent physical game objects is like language. It is not incorrect to manifest your thoughts as English, French, or Chinese so long as you’re fulfilling what is desired in communication. Just as well, it cannot be wrong to represent a card however you wish so long as it’s functional and satisfactory to playing the game. So long as your game object functional, it should only then be an issue of aesthetic value and nothing else, but this can also be largely fixed via proxying.
This is something that has been coming up between my friends and i coming into commander from standard, its like damn, should i get this 50$ phyrexian altar or a whole budget deck for 50$
I have no problem playing with people who are using proxy cards (as I sometimes use proxies myself) there is Someone in my playgroup who complains a lot about proxies saying proxy cards can boost a deck's power so and so and winning using proxy cards are not valid anyway
So isn't it the same as seeing a Porsche owner complain because he lost to a tuned Mazda?
Hah! That's a fun analogy. Another analogy is: imagine a Porsche owner racing another Porsche owner. The first guy loses. He finds out that the other Porsche owner doesn't own that car-that he just borrowed it from another friend.
Getting upset at someone for using proxies is like the first guy getting upset at the second guy.
Love the underlying thesis and agree with your opinion. Not sure I agree with the logic to build into it though. Transitive property doesn't seem to apply here (i.e. a dog is an animal; a cat is an animal; therefore, a dog is a cat??). A different lens to look at it is that one is a collectible and a game piece and the other is just a game piece. Anyway, I'm overall enjoying your videos - keep it up!
Glad to hear you're enjoying them! My core claim is that proxies are valid game pieces, despite the reasoning that says otherwise. Though yeah: for those who want to own cards in order to collect/invest, great! But if those same people don't want others to use proxies, I argue that their logic is predicated on a supposition that the proxy-users don't share.
Great video! I'm really pro-proxies and have never thought about this logic of ownership thing and about the actual cost of printing a Magic card.
What's your position on the chinese counterfeit cards? Some people say it's "bad for the game" but honestly, I think the mere existance of those is an issue for wizards to solve, not me. Like some other guy said in a comment below, "It's like buying a generic football instead of an NFL original football. Either way, you are playing the same game."
I think that misrepresenting something you sell isn't good (i.e. selling a counterfeit to someone who thinks it's printed officially by WotC), but I don't have a general position right now on the existence of counterfeits. I've thought a bit about forgeries in the art world, but not as much about counterfeits of mass-produced products.
Great video!
thanks so much!
I feel like that ultimately Rule 0 is what you should rely on. If you are in a scenario where someone doesn't feel comfortable with proxies, no matter there reason, their wishes should be respected.
If somebody is using budget as a barrier for others, then just don't play with them. Expensive cards don't matter if nobody wants to play with you.
That latter point is right on. Though I'd encourage people in this hypothetical pod to have a good discussion about why that person isn't comfortable with proxies… because folks should be able to account for that kinda comfort or discomfort, I think. Particularly if that discomfort essentially excludes others in the playgroup.
good players are also being held back from formats because of the $. i once won a legacy event that allowed proxy decks. it was a small event with like 8 ppl and i was one of three people who picked pre made proxy deck that was made for ppl who didnt own a legacy deck. i ended up beating some dude who owned his legacy deck in finals. i played white weenie they played grixis show n tell
Good coverage of the topic of proxies themselves. What about how the introduction of proxies to a playgroup pushes the power levels higher and higher? That’s my problem with proxies. It takes incredible restraint and a headache of conversation to agree on what is too powerful and what isn’t. Suddenly cEDH becomes the norm. And I don’t want to play cEDH, and I should have the option to not have to play that high level format where everyone guns for a turn 4 combo win.
I've seen this happen, for sure. Sadly (or happily, I'm not sure!) I think the solution here is to just have that tough conversation with your playgroup. My recommendation for those convos is to always have them over food.
It might also be smart for everyone in the group to essentially proxy up whatever competitive list they want, and all have "that deck" in case folks wanna play with a mostly competitive mindset.
Gaea's Craddle was the first card I ever had a proxy of but it wasn't sharpied onto a basic though, it was professionaly done for $7. I really love mtg and edh specifically but I'm not willing to spend thousands of dollars on playing cards, especially when I don't even own the home I'm living in. The thing that really hit home for me was when you held up that penny and said this is how much it cost them to make that $100+ card you'd like to play. I'm definitely pro proxy, I want every one to be able to push the power levels of their decks to the max without having to starve until their next paycheck.
For personal preference alone, I prefer to own and use real cards. But at this point I have so many decks that I refuse to keep rebuying expensive staples so now I'm starting to buy etsy proxies with fun art of expensive cards I own.
As far as my opponents go, idgaf as long as I can read it
I want a mox diamond im not paying the insane price for it.
The only thing I don't like about proxies is the (rare) person who doesn't print rules text on a significant part of the deck. At least, if you can, take the time to either 1: have a book of rules text with you corresponding with the cards in your deck, or print a copy of the card and slide it over a token in a sleeve. Part of the accessibility argument is not only accessibility to the materials, but accessibility to the rule-set, which does take some responsibility from the player to ensure. Writing "brainstorm" on a plain and expecting everyone to automatically know that card is (while not always wrong) definitely a part of gatekeeping without careful treatment from you, the player. Other than that, yes. Proxy everything. The only legit cards I have any more are pauper cards, because I'll gladly dump 40 bucks into an LGS to get real cards which feel nicer than printed out cheap proxies. Printed out /nice/ proxies though, especially for EDH, are 100% my jam.
This was a fantastic analysis of commodity fetishization and EDH's modes of class identity and it's relationship with the Commodity of Magic. As a Marxist and avid Magic player I really appreciate this.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad this was helpful and clear for you.
@@StackedEDH To say the least. The only issue I would have with simple proxies is their occasional tendancy to affect the game with insufficient text. Someone writing "Grim Monolith" on a basic plains may not remember that the untap ability costs 4 and might confuse it with Basalt Monolith's ability that costs 3. For this reason, my playgroup pushes for the alternate art proxies available on Etsy and other sites. It clearly depicts what the card does, prints all the rules and casting costs, and ends up helping small artists that likely don't work for a toxic corporation (controling the means of their own production with artisan creation). This eliminates "counterfeits" from becoming an issue while also making the rules clear to everyone.
@@alexanderstewart594 Yes! Absolutely. I'm a big fan of proxies with all the relevant details on them-though now that most players have access to a card lookup site/app on their phones, I'm less concerned with legibility. But I'm also a big fan of buying from artists/individuals.
I like your nails mate :)
Thanks so much! That's very kind.
@@StackedEDH I've stopped polishing my nails for now but I'll do it again in the future. I'm so bad at it that it takes way too much energy to focus on doing it well than I currently can afford to spend on it :/
@@allhailbolas There's no rush. And I hope you're not being too critical of your skills!
Damn, great video!
I'm so glad you like it, Steven! Thanks for saying so!
@@StackedEDH Made sure to share it with some friends on Discord too since I know the channel is new.
@@stevenoneil8563 Ayyyy! Thank you so much, Steven. That's generous and thoughtful of you.
I got into krarkashima from you
Yessssss
I'm passed the intro, I'm going to give my take here. And then allow myself the luxury of watching the video knowing not if my answer is going to match with yours.
In short: Proxies are fine. I don't like a land card vandalised with a marker, at least print it out and slide that print out into the sleeve.
More nuanced, I think the different reasons for proxying have variable levels of acceptable. If it's because they are wanting to test out their deck with a Grim Monolith and don't yet own one. I have no issue with that, if the reason is grime monolith is expensive, then I have no problem with that either. I give a pass to most expensive cards. And if someone is wanting to completely proxy a deck for testing purposes (because they want to make sure their investment isn't a waste of money) then of course. For mid-costing cards in their 20-40's I'd rather they own the real thing. But can understand them proxying, while they look to trade into a copy of the card they need. And I'll even facilitate that with them by buying or trading cards I own to help them raise that cash.
A notable additional exception, is if they have multiple decks that run the same card and they have limited copies, I know they own it. I'm fine with them not having it physically in every deck. I would prefer in that situation them to then keep those kinds of cards in a separate box/binder. And when they cast the proxy they can go to the box/binder and find the original they own. A friend of mine does this. And the only complaint I have is he doesn't indicate on the placeholder what card it is a proxy of, so I need to get onto that with him.
"And I'll even facilitate that with them by buying or trading cards I own to help them raise that cash." This is great!
I think you've got a reasonable and charitable approach to the question of proxies. Thanks for sharing it!
Wow, never thought at mtg cards this way
A great argument. Well made and nice to see background research and assessment to articulate the financial points.
Thanks for this. Hope an extra sub helps with producing more.
Also would recommend Spice8Rack’s proxy vid that you raised. th-cam.com/video/VALgm1qkeFE/w-d-xo.html
(No, I don’t agree with Megan that software piracy is a good comparison defence for proxing, but 100% on board with the rest of that video.)
Proxies are ok if your playgroup agrees with them.
The bolshevik undertones are VERY cringe, however.
I am pro proxy and what I see most people who are arguing against the "you should own real cards you play" thing is that people really do feel like they are entitled to be the only person playing with a $500 card, if they paid $500. I do not know why people may feel this way, but I suspect that a social contract, and a constructed social order are in fact, the reason why. Hasbro/WOTC expects, and the fans of the game do what is expected, even outside the realm of sanctioned events.
Both the pro and anti-proxy people see the opposition as behaving in an "entitled way". "I am entitled to free cards and to play whatever fake cards I want, and call it magic" -> entitlement. "I am entitled to win and defeat your deck because I spent $8000 and you spent $5 making your deck" -> entitlement. Neither one of them are wrong. There are a lot of entitled overgrown childish people playing this game. Let's all cut out the childishness. If someone wants to play against someone else's wallet, don't judge them. If someone doesn't want to play against someone else's wallet, don't judge them. There are different formats, there are different pods and communities.
I for one would spend more money at a game store that encouraged proxy driven "friday night magic" as a casual format, as opposed to a tournament focused format.
An interesting take, but I find it very hard to believe that a set has a print run of 2.5 billion cards. The reddit source jumps from 4th edition had 500 million to, therefore, modern sets are probably 2.5 billion. I did not see any real logic behind that jump. Cartumundi states that in 2014-2015 they produced about 14.7 billion cards globally (cartamundi.fr/fr/press/cartamundi-winner-of-company-of-the-year-in-new-york/). They make A LOT of cards for a lot of companies (Bicycle playing cards, etc). That would mean that in a year where there are 4 sets of MtG cards, at 2.5 billion per set, they would account for 68% of all the cards Cartumundi makes in a year. I find that highly unlikely. Not to be that guy arguing on the internet, but I'm sure WoTC's cost is more than a fraction of a cent per card. Of course, at WORST it would be the 8c you saw, and probably lower than that. Your points all still stand, but I think some of the numbers are a bit hyperbolic. Personally I am all for proxies that don't detract from the game. If you scribble "Mana Vault" on an Island and I don't know what the rules of that card are, that's at the least annoying, at worst leads to frustration with gameplay. It also makes it hard to look at a table and recognize quickly what cards are. I hope people at least go to the effort of making their proxy cards easy to understand and identify. Like wizards does with their multitude of Secret Lairs... oh wait.
Thanks for that info; that's very good to know! (I'll never be unhappy when someone provides me more and better data. This is great!) Though I didn't intend to use hyperbole-based on my cocktail napkin math, I thought ~$0.01 per card couldn't be that far off. And I suppose $0.08 per card still isn't, relative to the prices that many cards see on the secondary market. And I agree: I prefer players to use proxies that are visibly unique and/or have rules text written on them. Thanks again!
based as always
Excellent vid! I think another issue people have with proxies that they don't realize is that they, like wizards, think that the game of Magic IS the copywritten symbols, art, and names, and IS the officially printed cards. But to me, this actually misses a more important point. All the cardboard in the world doesn't make a game of Magic. The IP of Magic is not the same thing as the GAME of Magic.
The GAME of Magic only exists when we, the players, bring it to life. We create the game of Magic through (for lack of a better term) our labor. And in this way, it is WE who own the game of Magic. Subtract the player from Magic and sure, the product remains. But the game ceases to exist. And yes this is true of some other things that corporations claim to own, but when a game depends on network capital in the way Magic does, it's something worth noting.
I agree with the video... but some of these $$$ cards are simply OP and they keep them out of my casual games :P
I guess I could just ask them politely not use them and if they do I just refuse to play