@Jem Bennett yup, at wich point a proxy is a fake card or just a card for a different game with the same rules as magic ? when i was a kid we just made our own yu gi oh cards, they were original designs, but obviously some cards had similar effects to existing cards
I had a friend who made an eldrazi commander deck, but he didnt have access to any wastes so we just agreed that all the swamps in the deck were wastes
Omg I’m so feeling this. This explains what proxies are to the T, we don’t proxy to play the game without spending any money at all, we’re proxy because we want to play the game, we can’t just tell your friend there “you can’t play the deck” just because he doesn’t have the Wastes to go with it. At the end of the day, everyone just wants to play the game, instead of winning by using cards they otherwise couldn’t buy because it’s too expensive.
My friends and I did this a lot when we first started out. We were like 12, and could afford barely any product, so for about a year I'd have decks where I'd have to tell my opponent "All plains are mountains, all islands are swamps"
@@the_metamancer yes, when do you stop proxing? I came to play with actual real cards. Like imagine any other sport or game you want to use fake items, it would not work. But some reason you think its ok here
@@nickxcaliber7991just to clarify, your argument about "proxying in sport" would be like saying "you can't play baseball with us because you didn't buy the official MLB bats and instead are using a generic third party bat", and that's usually done in movies and shows to differentiate between the elitist villains and the underdog heros. If it wasn't for Spices comments about people's proxys being "manipulated" to cheat, I would argue that proxys should be allowed in tournaments because the games isn't about "what you can buy" but "your skill in using the cards". Because, with a few exceptions, every card can be bought so that just becomes an issue of "whos willing to spend the money" which results in a toxic competitive environment.
As a magic judge, one of the things that judges do that I think a lot of people aren't really aware of, is help foster communities of magic players. It's refreshing to hear someone talk about proxying being part of the message that you send to stores and other players. Thank you for this video
Outside of an official tournament setting, not letting people play with proxies is basically saying that they dont want to fight your skill they want to fight your wallet.
@@Spice8Rack thank you for making this video, I've long been an advocate of proxies in casual play and people in general have a really tough time getting on board with the idea for some reason.
This isn't exactly true. I completely understand someone not accepting lazy proxies. If your proxies hurt my understanding of the board and the flow of the game then I will be against it.
@@Level_1_Frog I 100% agree. I am a budget player, and so I rarely have the cash to get a card that costs $10+ for a deck, and when I do I want to be able to play that card in as many decks as I want without having to swap the copy around between decks/sleeves every other game. Disallowing proxies in casual settings is absurd.
In 96 a proxy was a plains(bc white sucked outside of balance stp balance and Serra angel) a sharpie and bam a proxy. I personally don't care for proxies but enjoy your hearts out printer owners. Paid events no no. Casual sure I guess
I feel like anti proxy mentality mostly stems from the players that bought the money cards, and don't want some kid to roll up with a copy of his $20,000 deck (idk magic prices, I'm a casual observer lol) that cost 5 cents to proxy. Like the type of people that don't want student debt wiped because they had to pay theirs
It's absolutely that, there are even people in the comments making this kind of argument. "I had to work for X, therefore nobody should be allowed to have X unless they work at least as hard as I do!" Strangely these people never seem to want to put in additional expense after getting their slice of the pie if circumstances should shift the other direction, like they're not going to pay back the new difference of what they "owe" if the cost of a card they purchased at a low price has skyrocketed over the years. It's a purely self-centered worldview, they're fine being better off than others but never want to be worse off in terms of net cost. Ironically it's often self-destructive, since this kind of thinking gets in the way of large-scale reform that would improve the circumstances of everyone including them.
A 20k deck would have to be vintage and is using rather specific cards. Maybe even rare variants. The cheating method is a vintage with more then a few power 9's or just a black lotus
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 If you're going really hard at it, it can be good to have all the same so people can't tell them apart if you're at pro level. But also OCD brain
I remember you sharing a video from another content creator about how expensive cards are a way that edh players gatekeep regularly a while ago, and I'm glad that you decided to take a look into the discussion yourself!
Another proxy product officially released by Wizards was the Collectors Edition box, with Power 9 with different backs on it. You could even say the oversized commanders or today's thicc ones are proxies. And on the Japanese official Magic manga, proxies are mentioned and played like a normal thing.
I love how when I see proxies I think about the fancy plastic diamonds you see in decorations, and it's funnier to imagine someone getting mad about an obviously fake diamond
There is also the situation of cards being too expensive to feasibly carry them around with you. I have a time twister and a candelabra in my cedh high tide deck, but I keep those in a safe place in my home, and use a proxy in my deck, as there has been issues of theft at the shop before.
That's the issue with trying to make MTG cards into game pieces _and_ collectible valuables *both.* You can't have your cake and eat it too with this. If it's too valuable to handle in a game, it ceases to be a game piece.
@qwormuli77 I made this post two years ago and now my tasigur deck is 10k (which is the net of me collecting cards and building my collection since 2008). If you want to play cedh, you now must have been playing for decades already OR proxy, which is bullshit.
i have met ppl who’ve told me they stopped playing sanctioned paper vintage/legacy SOLELY because they didn’t want to carry their expensive decks around… the kicker? the one person in specific I’m remembering quit back when vintage decks were ~1/5 of what they are now…
So happy you made this video, my friends not being a fan of being taxed for hundreds of dollars by a tcg were skeptical of commander and it wasn’t until we made a proxy deck for all of us that made them fall in love with the game. We play regularly now and proxy new decks when we see fit and while I’m stuck with a sickening disease of buying shiny cardboard they never have to spend a dime unless they want to! Being able to find the decks we all like to play and even having a whole proxy cube now I would suggest any one who is thinking about doing proxy’s to go for it!
yeah the best argument against proxying is that you're not spending money at your lgs, but even so it's not an especially strong argument. For instance, I tend to buy singles online because my lgs rarely has the cards I need (and also I build budget decks and my lgs isn't going to bother holding onto a bunch of
Proxies in general hurt the secondary market. The question is, does this bother you? Your LGS is part of the secondary market, yes, but they also sell other products (including first-party products and accessories, and other games), and they can most likely survive a secondary market crash. The ones that are hurt the most by proxying are the people/companies who rely on the secondary card market alone to make a profit.
@@noneyabizness6094 wait what why would wotc go belly up? Isn’t a secondary crash going to make them more money because then they can reprint and sell at full price? They don’t get any profit from secondary buy/sell so why would it affect them?
Im not paying 50$ for some card stock and ink because a greedy corporation refuses to reprint said cardstock for the sake of having collectors feel like they are important
Is it really "theft" if you "steal" a product that isn't being produced anymore by its original creator, because that creator was bullied by a bunch of people into creating an artificial scarcitiy of that product, so that these people don't have to feel bad about spending hundreds of dollars on singular pieces of cardboard? Great content as always.
It cannot be theft since nothing from wizards was stolen. To have IP "rights" is to hold a gun to everyone's head. Making proxies is perfectly fine and selling them is perfectly fine however using them in sanctioned touranments is not. Proxies are not counterfeits as counterfeits are made to look like real mtg cards, proxies are obvious fakes selling counterfeits without disclosing that they're counterfeits is fraud and theft.
@@voluntarism335 IP Rights are still valid. What’s not valid is telling someone that they don’t control the rights to their own creative efforts, and thus stealing or inflating the supply of their goods without regard to their property rights.
@@voluntarism335 Selling proxies that contain IP is illegal. Most proxies I've seen being sold are in fact illegal. Whether or not you think that legality is based in ethics or not can be debated. The legality is pretty cut and dry.
@@Stopinvadingmyhardware IP Rights are not valid, actually. They should have been compensated for the creation of their stuff up front like the rest of the people who work for a living. Imagine if some mathematician said that some concept which is the only way to perceive something was their intellectual property, absurd right? Well that is the same quintessence that exists within *all* IP.
When you said it was a "spite" video I was expecting it to just be about why you should give Wizards as little money as possible, which is still a perfectly understandable take considering the state of the game the past few years.
@@unai49999 He said that people lie about their intent to purchase cards, so they can stomp people with spendy cards, without actually purchasing them.
I love how this should've been a spite video and instead it was an exahustive explanation of the topic, a collaborative video and a showcase of some really good artists' work. Merry Christmas Spiceman!
Spice laughing at one of the greatest and scariest horror stories ever made really cracked me up. Uzumaki is really funny, i loved how everyone became an unified blob in the end, hysterical! What an amazing start to a wonderful work of spite.
I have always shied away from proxying because I like the challenge of working within a budget and not using "powerful"/overly expensive cards. I never realized that using tokens is actually a form of proxying. Great informative video.
What is a budget Commander deck with 100 cards for you though? Anything above 40 euro is a ridiculous price IMO for cardboard cards, I buy cards but I proxie a decent amount of cards to be able to play with multiple decks and maybe buy the cards that I use often later on. My decks are still less then 60-70 euro in total even with the cards I proxie (even if they were replaced for the "real deal"), a general rule with the friends I play with is just never play with a deck worth over 100euro and never proxie a card that is over 12 euro unless your testing it to buy it later on if your fond of it. Ofc if I play in my LGS I would bring a deck that has full official cards to play with strangers unless I'm playing with friends.
@@mrmeepsmeeperson770 you can make a commander deck for 1 dollar that actually gets wins, I forget what the card is (its red green) but basically your commander gets a 1+/1+ token for each land you own, then you fill the deck with lands and like one other green card, its pretty funny
Megan's point (10:53) about about how you can argue that, technically, even official Magic cards can be considered proxies since they are standing in for the "rules object" that it represents is SO MINDBLOWING!!!
As a pretty obvious aside on the subject of proxies and card values, etc, I think the Pokemon TCG needs a lot of credit for having a really amazing model to balance playability and the resale market, and something that we've actually been harping on WotC for a while- they have multiple versions of valuable/powerful cards of varying rarities. For example, you can get a basic set of cards and build the deck that won last year's world championship for ~$30, meanwhile the rarest versions of some of those cards- foil, holo, first edition, alternate art, and limited release versions can sell to collectors for hundreds or even thousands of dollars a piece- everyone is happy; players get a low barrier to entry and still get to play the best cards and decks, collectors get rare and expensive cards to buy, sell, and trade among each other.
Two years ago I was strongly against proxies. A few months ago, I bought my first proxy. The ballooning price of the game pushed me to reconsider my stance, and now I encourage my friends who are new to the game to proxy to see if they like it
As a guy who makes custom commanders just about every week, I regularly have to proxy those and they're always a part of The Rule Zero Discussion, on top of that I have a local proxy guy who prints them for our game store's players and makes them all nice and foil-y and I'm more than happy to support that.
I started playing MTG right after 4th edition came out. We used the extra basic lands to create proxies all the time. Missed the nice artwork but the game was still fun and allowed us to build the decks we wanted without having to spend money I didn't have at the time.
Boy this video really makes me want to engage with the creator and watch more videos on TH-cam. It would be a good idea to make this video show up in more searches, and to reward the creator monetarily.
Well shit, if I knew you were actually gonna read it, I would have come up with a better comment. I just wanted to feed the algorithm. I love your videos! Keep up the good work. I'll do the patreon thing when I get a job.
In my LGS we play gentry tournaments, so you are limited to 4 unique rares/mythics and 15 uncommons. This creates very budget friendly decks not built around the super good rares from sets thus not needing proxies. (They also give prizes to top 3 but then raffle out the rest)
Ngl, as someone who saved a whole months spending money for a Volcanic Island, I'm find with proxy-ing. I think it's honestly ridiculous to feasibly think that everyone can afford reserve list cards that in all fairness, aren't always that game changing in commander.
@@Syne111 if a player wants to play a peice of cardboard that hasnt been printed in 25 years, they shouldnt be forced to dump their life savings or learn how to make a working time machine. I thought the point of playing magic was to test ones skill against another person. So why should someone care about whats in my wallet?
"Oh Mr. Proxy, you card" is genuinely the greatest, most seamless pun I've ever heard. That's not hyperbole, I really don't think you could do a pun better than that.
Love it. I've been advocating for proxies for years. My advice: use color proxies in sleeves so it feels and looks enough like the real thing, but still obviously a proxy. Only proxy within you power level and budget, that cuts down on feel bads. Rule 0 should be your guiding rule, use it!
My thing with proxies will always be that I just don't want it to be the card name written on a basic land. I need to be able to easily read the card because I have trouble remembering what every card does at a moment's notice, and I shouldn't have to stop the game to look the card up. This was a great video and I agree with everything else :)
I work at my LGS, we have a house rule for proxies: Are you playing a store sanctioned event? Depends on the card. True duels and insanely rare cards that no one can afford and we don't have? We'd rather you don't, but we won't stop you. Things we have? Not allowed. Are you playing with your friends just at the store? We give zero shits
I really appreciate you taking the time to caption this video, it's made it a lot easier for me (and I'm sure many others) to access. Also, missed opportunity to put "A Spite Video. By Spite8rack aged 24" in the intro. :P
This is an awesome assessment of proxies, thanks. I would add one thing that I'm surprised you (as one of the best aesthetic and flavour mtg channels) didn't bring up. I don't like when I play against ’card-name-only-sharpie-proxies’. It means it's up to me (as the opponent) to remember what the card is, what it does, what it costs etc. Also it breaks the feel and emersion of the game.
My friends and I recently got back into magic after not playing for years. We've been playing commander with 100% proxied cards and it's great. You can make so many decks so quickly. Our deck building skills have been increasing rapidly, and we're playing decks with tons of fun, powerful cards.
I do believe that using well made proxies can create an MTG deck that is aesthetically uniform and I definitely want to do that at some point. Like making an izzet storm deck that has lightning effects on every card or has a particular art style. Would be absolutely sick!
I remember playing in Saviors of Kamigawa draft on release day, the judge made some proxies as they ran out of a certain number of basics I needed so they made proxies of the cards I needed. The head Judge can issue proxies which are legal in sanctioned events.
Turning their mockery of proxies into a whole video incentivising good practices, great art and also incentivising charity donations. Sweetie, you deserve better.
As always, a perfect argument with sound reasoning and delivery, as well as some odd jokes here and there. I absolutely love it, have a good holiday season you spicy wonderboy.
A couple more great examples of needing proxies: - Nigh-infinite cards such as Scute Swarm, which can create hundreds of copies of itself in a single turn if you build around it - Garth One-Eye, who can _MAKE A BLACK LOTUS_ - Using dice as +1/+1 tokens (or any others)
At MF Bologna, there were multiple judges in the command zone that said they don‘t care if you play Proxies as long as they were recognizable as proxies and the table was fine with it, despite us playing in the official command zone. It is funny how people on the internet get worked up about something that wizards and organizers are essentially fine with.
I think a big part of the 'proxies bad' argument is veiled around the bad "If you can't afford them you shouldn't be able to play them, stop crying about it" argument. It's just elitist gatekeeping, really. Those people are angry that people are having fun playing the game with proxies of cards that they spent a lot of money on, and to them, their money or time spent is their ''''permission'''' to play those cards, 'how dare others play with mechanical game pieces without having a similar investment' is their personal angry gripe that they're trying to warp into a thinly veiled anti proxy argument.
@@elizabethhicks4181 Makes ya wonder if they would similarly be upset if someone got a bunch of good cards as a gift from a friend. That person still didn't spend the money to get those cards so it would be the same argument.
I'm so glad you have made this video Spice. My friend and I were poor teenagers that liked the raw power of Vintage and would construct decks by assigning different suits of poker cards a magic card name (we each needed about four full poker decks apiece). Proxies shouldn't be a dirty word in Magic: The Gathering. Without them a vanishingly small number of fans will ever have the ability to play with those ancient cards and experience the rush of having the most broken combos at their fingertips.
I have 2 different play groups and both of them have moved towards proxies. It made the power level among decks much more even and consistent since everyone had the expensive cards they normally couldn’t afford but should run in decks.
Really liked the proxy art scrolling through with the credits. It was fun to visually engage with after the content itself was over. If you feel like adding that or something similar to future credits where it makes less sense thematically, I think it would be a fun more permanent addition.
So glad that "In response I bolt myself" is back to coming immediately after "I am saying this only...", I always look forward to that part of the video.
You getting that warning for the werewolves visible through the sleeves reminds me of the first time I bought card sleeves, which was at a Dark Ascension pre-release draft at the lgs and first and only official event I took part in, where I'd drawn mostly things for werewolves, so to play them I bought a pack of sleeves so that the card backs wouldn't give them away. When looking at the different colours of sleeve available (the packaging didn't actually say the colours) I settled on a type that looked silvery. Opened it up and turns out they were transparent, and the silvery look was because the sleeves were stacked. I think it's easy to see why they were literally the least useful sleeves to have picked in that situation.
Shiiittttt… I use proxies for almost every Alpha/Beta card I own! I’m not even letting my wife break out the actual cards. Everyone we play with is well aware that I do indeed own the cards that I’ve proxied and they completely understand why I’m not tossing around $30,000.00 on my kitchen table. Plus, if you’ve ever tried to play with cards that you’ve had graded, you know that it’s not conducive to a smooth game of MtG. I was fortunate enough to have started playing literally right as Alpha shipped and that my parents are diligent organized people. I stopped playing when I left for college in 1998 and completely forgot about my collection until 2015 when my parents were moving to their retirement property. I had no idea what the cards were worth because I had been out of the community for sooo long, but a friend of mine was having a breakdown over what he was seeing and filled me in. Long story short, I don’t play any “official” tournaments anymore and I’m not trying to be ultra competitive. I just want to have fun playing MtG and relish in the nostalgia of feeling like the 15 year old who got his first summer job at a comic/card shop back in 1993. I think everyone should be able to enjoy any card that they want without having to fork over $10,000 minimum for an Alpha Louts or multiple $1,000’s a piece for Alpha Duals (yes, I am aware that Beta and Unlimited are “cheaper”, but they’re still in the same neighborhood as far as I’m concerned). I promise that if I hadn’t compiled my collection and forgotten about it, there’s no way I’d spend anything close to what the market wants for any card, regardless of its power level. I swear, I remember getting yelled at by my mom for a month plus because I bought a 2nd Lotus for $155.00, but she doesn’t want to hear about how it was actually a good investment. Looking back through, I can’t believe I was happy to spend that on a single card and I wouldn’t do it today. I’m all for proxies and that’s a blanket statement, I don’t care if you own a physical copy of the card in question or not, it’s a game and traditionally games are intended to be fun and enjoyable (at least I think so). I don’t see any issue with proxies being used outside of tournaments as long as they aren’t being used to con people out of their money. Sorry for the long ass comment, I got lost in the weeds a bit there.
Late side note on your break-away comment: While you are allowed proxies in hidden zones, they aren't allowed in public zones. 713.5. If the substitute card is face up in a public zone, it should be set aside and the double-faced card or meld card that it represents should be used instead. This is probably the rationale for why an official copy is required in sanctioned tournaments. And yes, I realize a rule as a reason for the rule is circular.
@@Spice8Rack Especially the "fever dream" with the talking cards was really impressive. I thought I was watching a medium-budget TV-show for a moment. It's nice to see a progressive voice in the Magic community, bringing culture to the troll caves of Dominaria :')
That feeling you mentioned at 39:25 about artwork, I didn't realize it until I drew my own token cards for the Mystery Booster playtest cards like Time Sidewalk and Gunk Slug. It reminded me of childhood, again. Such a great, warm feeling from such a simple action.
LETSGOOOO
HEY SPICE8RACK DID YOU NOTICE THAT THE ARTIST SHEEPWAVE GAVE YOU A VERSION OF GAEA'S CRADLE THAT HAS A TYPO
SHS BAD AND SHOULD FEEL BAD
You are a delight and it was a PLEASURE to interview you
@@Spice8Rack ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ .... we can fix the thumnail tho
@@the8cell You are legendadry! Great to see you in the video!
Legends
ok i have a question @Sheepwave is it legal to sell alters though?
25:28 "What are they gonna do, call the card police?" Well, they have shown they are not above calling the Pinkertons.
I was hoping someone would say this. 🤣 “this joke has aged poorly. Thanks, corporate greed!” lol
Damn, beat me to it!
Arguing that a real Magic card is a proxy "of the rules object it represents" is such Platonism and I am HERE FOR IT.
Based and Platopilled.
Why? This equivocation just weakens the argument.
@Jem Bennett I believe that was proven with the infinite scute swarm experiment.
@Jem Bennett yup, at wich point a proxy is a fake card or just a card for a different game with the same rules as magic ? when i was a kid we just made our own yu gi oh cards, they were original designs, but obviously some cards had similar effects to existing cards
@Jem Bennett its also good for the algorithm lol
I had a friend who made an eldrazi commander deck, but he didnt have access to any wastes so we just agreed that all the swamps in the deck were wastes
Omg I’m so feeling this. This explains what proxies are to the T, we don’t proxy to play the game without spending any money at all, we’re proxy because we want to play the game, we can’t just tell your friend there “you can’t play the deck” just because he doesn’t have the Wastes to go with it. At the end of the day, everyone just wants to play the game, instead of winning by using cards they otherwise couldn’t buy because it’s too expensive.
Similar to my Mono Blue Scry Commander deck where all of my Basic Islands are treated as Snow Covered Islands.
My friends and I did this a lot when we first started out. We were like 12, and could afford barely any product, so for about a year I'd have decks where I'd have to tell my opponent "All plains are mountains, all islands are swamps"
@@NeroVingian40 I don't even care if people want to play the game without paying at all, I'm just stoked to have more people to play with.
@@ryanstewart2289And that's the only way to be a cool magic player. We need more people like this guy
"An actual magic card is a proxy of the actual rules object that it is supposed to represent"
Truer words were never spoken.
I mean at that point why not proxy rules and new cards? Why not proxy an entire game
@@nickxcaliber7991slippery slope fallacy detected
@@the_metamancer yes, when do you stop proxing? I came to play with actual real cards. Like imagine any other sport or game you want to use fake items, it would not work. But some reason you think its ok here
@@nickxcaliber7991just to clarify, your argument about "proxying in sport" would be like saying "you can't play baseball with us because you didn't buy the official MLB bats and instead are using a generic third party bat", and that's usually done in movies and shows to differentiate between the elitist villains and the underdog heros. If it wasn't for Spices comments about people's proxys being "manipulated" to cheat, I would argue that proxys should be allowed in tournaments because the games isn't about "what you can buy" but "your skill in using the cards". Because, with a few exceptions, every card can be bought so that just becomes an issue of "whos willing to spend the money" which results in a toxic competitive environment.
@@jangelaclough5457 got you. So if i want to play baseball ill just use my own homemade bat instead of the mlb bat.
As a magic judge, one of the things that judges do that I think a lot of people aren't really aware of, is help foster communities of magic players. It's refreshing to hear someone talk about proxying being part of the message that you send to stores and other players. Thank you for this video
Honestly though, I hope judges do look for and disqualify those who use counterfeits.
@@Syne111 If it's a local tournament they'll have no reason to care whatsoever.
Outside of an official tournament setting, not letting people play with proxies is basically saying that they dont want to fight your skill they want to fight your wallet.
Ooooh that's a good fkn line actually
@@Spice8Rack thank you for making this video, I've long been an advocate of proxies in casual play and people in general have a really tough time getting on board with the idea for some reason.
This isn't exactly true. I completely understand someone not accepting lazy proxies. If your proxies hurt my understanding of the board and the flow of the game then I will be against it.
@@Level_1_Frog I 100% agree. I am a budget player, and so I rarely have the cash to get a card that costs $10+ for a deck, and when I do I want to be able to play that card in as many decks as I want without having to swap the copy around between decks/sleeves every other game. Disallowing proxies in casual settings is absurd.
@@swiftdragonrider I was just about to make a comment about readability- I think it's a really important factor that was skipped in the video
Back in 96 or so my buddy got the first color printer we ever saw. His dad got soooo mad when we used all the ink in two days printing proxies 🤣 🤣
Lmao based
The cost 2 printer ink cartridges probably cost more than all the cards you printed IRL
Remember when printer cartridges were refillable? Pepperidge Farm remembers...
In 96 a proxy was a plains(bc white sucked outside of balance stp balance and Serra angel) a sharpie and bam a proxy. I personally don't care for proxies but enjoy your hearts out printer owners. Paid events no no. Casual sure I guess
@@TheEggelton they still make em' they are called reservoir printers now
"This is a high-production spite video"
30 seconds into the video and my expectations are already met - merry Christmas, Spice!
I feel like anti proxy mentality mostly stems from the players that bought the money cards, and don't want some kid to roll up with a copy of his $20,000 deck (idk magic prices, I'm a casual observer lol) that cost 5 cents to proxy.
Like the type of people that don't want student debt wiped because they had to pay theirs
20 grand would be if you were deliberately trying to make an expensive deck, but it CAN be done.
vintage you spend 20k easy
It's absolutely that, there are even people in the comments making this kind of argument. "I had to work for X, therefore nobody should be allowed to have X unless they work at least as hard as I do!" Strangely these people never seem to want to put in additional expense after getting their slice of the pie if circumstances should shift the other direction, like they're not going to pay back the new difference of what they "owe" if the cost of a card they purchased at a low price has skyrocketed over the years.
It's a purely self-centered worldview, they're fine being better off than others but never want to be worse off in terms of net cost. Ironically it's often self-destructive, since this kind of thinking gets in the way of large-scale reform that would improve the circumstances of everyone including them.
But you can beat decks that cost thousands with decks that cost less than $100. At least in modern which I play.
A 20k deck would have to be vintage and is using rather specific cards. Maybe even rare variants. The cheating method is a vintage with more then a few power 9's or just a black lotus
Broke: Building a Commander deck with 37 matching basic lands.
Woke: Building a Commander deck with 100 matching basic lands and a sharpie.
That's not really fun to play against
Underrated comment.
People like to use all the same design of lands? That seems weird.
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 If you're going really hard at it, it can be good to have all the same so people can't tell them apart if you're at pro level. But also OCD brain
If you rolled into a game night with a pile like that I'd have to vote in your favor for the sheer dedication to chaos.
I remember you sharing a video from another content creator about how expensive cards are a way that edh players gatekeep regularly a while ago, and I'm glad that you decided to take a look into the discussion yourself!
Oh shit aye their video came out as I was finishing the script for this one!
Actually, there are people who should come into your work place and tell you how to do your job:
Safety Inspectors
And even then, it's less how to do your job, and more how _not_ to do your job in order to _keep_ doing your job.
I would like this comment, but you're at 69 likes and i don't want to ruin that for you lol
Proxy's Bizarre Adventure: Spicy Tendency
My last month summarised
Yay I got noticed!
Now back to trying to get my Enbyfriend into playing with cardboard instead of painting plastic fascist soldiers. :P
@@JBOBloedsinn wait, which version of warhammer are you talking about tho
@@loganjamesonhatch5050 Nah they're playing with little US figures with funny red hats on
@@loganjamesonhatch5050 40k Space Marines.
You convinced me to print a Black Lotus just to see if I could. Literally inkjet printer glued to an island. It's marvelous.
Another proxy product officially released by Wizards was the Collectors Edition box, with Power 9 with different backs on it. You could even say the oversized commanders or today's thicc ones are proxies.
And on the Japanese official Magic manga, proxies are mentioned and played like a normal thing.
Smothering Tithe was an inspired choice for the official card.
Just got a reprint - enjoy!
I feel so identified with spice having a discussion stucked in his head for so long that he decided to make a response video, lov u so much man
This is absolutely brilliant, I'm beginning to think that you just can't make a bad video. Happy holidays spice
You're too kind.
I love how when I see proxies I think about the fancy plastic diamonds you see in decorations, and it's funnier to imagine someone getting mad about an obviously fake diamond
Good comparison, since some people don't care about whether the diamond is pretty, they just need the physical properties of the diamond.
There is also the situation of cards being too expensive to feasibly carry them around with you. I have a time twister and a candelabra in my cedh high tide deck, but I keep those in a safe place in my home, and use a proxy in my deck, as there has been issues of theft at the shop before.
That's the issue with trying to make MTG cards into game pieces _and_ collectible valuables *both.* You can't have your cake and eat it too with this. If it's too valuable to handle in a game, it ceases to be a game piece.
@qwormuli77 I made this post two years ago and now my tasigur deck is 10k (which is the net of me collecting cards and building my collection since 2008). If you want to play cedh, you now must have been playing for decades already OR proxy, which is bullshit.
i have met ppl who’ve told me they stopped playing sanctioned paper vintage/legacy SOLELY because they didn’t want to carry their expensive decks around…
the kicker? the one person in specific I’m remembering quit back when vintage decks were ~1/5 of what they are now…
So happy you made this video, my friends not being a fan of being taxed for hundreds of dollars by a tcg were skeptical of commander and it wasn’t until we made a proxy deck for all of us that made them fall in love with the game. We play regularly now and proxy new decks when we see fit and while I’m stuck with a sickening disease of buying shiny cardboard they never have to spend a dime unless they want to! Being able to find the decks we all like to play and even having a whole proxy cube now I would suggest any one who is thinking about doing proxy’s to go for it!
YEYEYEYEYEY HAVE FUN WITH THE GAME! WOO! POGGERS!
Your friends have common sense.
yeah the best argument against proxying is that you're not spending money at your lgs, but even so it's not an especially strong argument. For instance, I tend to buy singles online because my lgs rarely has the cards I need (and also I build budget decks and my lgs isn't going to bother holding onto a bunch of
Proxies in general hurt the secondary market. The question is, does this bother you?
Your LGS is part of the secondary market, yes, but they also sell other products (including first-party products and accessories, and other games), and they can most likely survive a secondary market crash. The ones that are hurt the most by proxying are the people/companies who rely on the secondary card market alone to make a profit.
@@therealax6 I know this is a year old, but in my honest opinion. Screw the secondary market.
@@bestaround3323 its easy to say screw the secondary market, but if you do that, large swaths of the player base walks and WotC goes belly up.
@@noneyabizness6094 That's not true.
@@noneyabizness6094 wait what why would wotc go belly up? Isn’t a secondary crash going to make them more money because then they can reprint and sell at full price? They don’t get any profit from secondary buy/sell so why would it affect them?
Im not paying 50$ for some card stock and ink because a greedy corporation refuses to reprint said cardstock for the sake of having collectors feel like they are important
They are, Just as you
BASED
Well now i dont feel important anymore >:(
Investor: G A S P!!! (Offended 1% noises)
Collectors aren't really the bad guys, it's resellers and mtgfinance. And mostly Wizards.
Is it really "theft" if you "steal" a product that isn't being produced anymore by its original creator, because that creator was bullied by a bunch of people into creating an artificial scarcitiy of that product, so that these people don't have to feel bad about spending hundreds of dollars on singular pieces of cardboard?
Great content as always.
It cannot be theft since nothing from wizards was stolen. To have IP "rights" is to hold a gun to everyone's head. Making proxies is perfectly fine and selling them is perfectly fine however using them in sanctioned touranments is not. Proxies are not counterfeits as counterfeits are made to look like real mtg cards, proxies are obvious fakes selling counterfeits without disclosing that they're counterfeits is fraud and theft.
@@voluntarism335 IP Rights are still valid. What’s not valid is telling someone that they don’t control the rights to their own creative efforts, and thus stealing or inflating the supply of their goods without regard to their property rights.
This so much! Who the heck am I supposedly stealing from if I proxy a card that the official manufacturer has promised to never sell again???
@@voluntarism335 Selling proxies that contain IP is illegal. Most proxies I've seen being sold are in fact illegal.
Whether or not you think that legality is based in ethics or not can be debated. The legality is pretty cut and dry.
@@Stopinvadingmyhardware IP Rights are not valid, actually. They should have been compensated for the creation of their stuff up front like the rest of the people who work for a living. Imagine if some mathematician said that some concept which is the only way to perceive something was their intellectual property, absurd right? Well that is the same quintessence that exists within *all* IP.
When you said it was a "spite" video I was expecting it to just be about why you should give Wizards as little money as possible, which is still a perfectly understandable take considering the state of the game the past few years.
A lot of times my playgroup proxies cards to see how they flow with the deck if they wanna make a change before committing to the purchase.
A 100% good reason to proxy!
Thats really smart
Or at least thats what they say as they bring the same proxied deck to fnm 8 years in a row and pubstomp everyone
@@breakingtide first, you don't know that. Second, so what?? Let the people play, it's just a game.
@@unai49999 He said that people lie about their intent to purchase cards, so they can stomp people with spendy cards, without actually purchasing them.
Official Magic: the Gathering Card is Smothering Tithe, fucking epic!
it's like the professor putting the pursued whale aside when oppening collector boosters **chef kiss**
Not gonna lie, I misread as "Why Phyrexian is good and cool, actually." and was confused for far longer than I should.
Yawgmoth did nothing wrong.
@@Bluecho4 We must create perfection.
YOU SHALL BE COMPLEAT
That video should totally exist
@@florgness Phyrexian propaganda should definitely be a thing
This “D” guy sounds like he’s lots of fun at parties.
I doubt they get invited to parties.
I love how this should've been a spite video and instead it was an exahustive explanation of the topic, a collaborative video and a showcase of some really good artists' work. Merry Christmas Spiceman!
I just got an entirely proxied vintage cube in the mail last week! You proud of me, papa spice8rack?
Very proud, child. Now, take those dishes to the kitchen and get a good night's sleep
Better not have bought those :P
You now have me wanting one of those!
@@doccon8 www.mpcautofill.com/guide
@@Napoleon1805 great way to do it
Spice laughing at one of the greatest and scariest horror stories ever made really cracked me up. Uzumaki is really funny, i loved how everyone became an unified blob in the end, hysterical! What an amazing start to a wonderful work of spite.
Bruh, thanks for spoiling it
"What are they gonna do? Call the card police?"
Little did we know
I have always shied away from proxying because I like the challenge of working within a budget and not using "powerful"/overly expensive cards.
I never realized that using tokens is actually a form of proxying. Great informative video.
What is a budget Commander deck with 100 cards for you though? Anything above 40 euro is a ridiculous price IMO for cardboard cards, I buy cards but I proxie a decent amount of cards to be able to play with multiple decks and maybe buy the cards that I use often later on. My decks are still less then 60-70 euro in total even with the cards I proxie (even if they were replaced for the "real deal"), a general rule with the friends I play with is just never play with a deck worth over 100euro and never proxie a card that is over 12 euro unless your testing it to buy it later on if your fond of it. Ofc if I play in my LGS I would bring a deck that has full official cards to play with strangers unless I'm playing with friends.
often when I proxy, I keep myself within a monetary limit. I don't spend the money, but I also don't use crazily expensive cards.
@@mrmeepsmeeperson770 you can make a commander deck for 1 dollar that actually gets wins, I forget what the card is (its red green) but basically your commander gets a 1+/1+ token for each land you own, then you fill the deck with lands and like one other green card, its pretty funny
@@keighne7650Ah yes, the land pile decks.
Megan's point (10:53) about about how you can argue that, technically, even official Magic cards can be considered proxies since they are standing in for the "rules object" that it represents is SO MINDBLOWING!!!
Engaging for the algorithm Spiceboi. and also because I 100% agree on proxies and alts being allowed. I hope to make ones in the coming future even!
It’s now canon that Spice always carries a knife on his lap
You're goddamn right
Wait, you mean there are people _without_ lap knives?
But the true question is does he have a glock in his lap?
@@LexYeen I've already made my lap a knife
As a pretty obvious aside on the subject of proxies and card values, etc, I think the Pokemon TCG needs a lot of credit for having a really amazing model to balance playability and the resale market, and something that we've actually been harping on WotC for a while- they have multiple versions of valuable/powerful cards of varying rarities. For example, you can get a basic set of cards and build the deck that won last year's world championship for ~$30, meanwhile the rarest versions of some of those cards- foil, holo, first edition, alternate art, and limited release versions can sell to collectors for hundreds or even thousands of dollars a piece- everyone is happy; players get a low barrier to entry and still get to play the best cards and decks, collectors get rare and expensive cards to buy, sell, and trade among each other.
shaymin ex?
Piracy is not theft. Theft is removal of something. Piracy is copy of something. You cannot prove damage bc there is none
Gay
@@ThunderhorsE1213 I'm actually Bi, but close enough!
@@Spice8Rack partially gay
Merry Christmas Spicy man
Happy holidays, Nick H-man!
Two years ago I was strongly against proxies. A few months ago, I bought my first proxy. The ballooning price of the game pushed me to reconsider my stance, and now I encourage my friends who are new to the game to proxy to see if they like it
I was resistant to it but not again it. Finally pulled the trigger and bought some a few ago
This is somehow less onerous than a $50 precon?
As a guy who makes custom commanders just about every week, I regularly have to proxy those and they're always a part of The Rule Zero Discussion, on top of that I have a local proxy guy who prints them for our game store's players and makes them all nice and foil-y and I'm more than happy to support that.
I started playing MTG right after 4th edition came out. We used the extra basic lands to create proxies all the time. Missed the nice artwork but the game was still fun and allowed us to build the decks we wanted without having to spend money I didn't have at the time.
THE EDIT ON TOP OF THE EDIT, we have reached peak meta.
Spice is giving away the Yawgmoth version of himself but he's keeping the secret Spicey Slobad.
Boy this video really makes me want to engage with the creator and watch more videos on TH-cam. It would be a good idea to make this video show up in more searches, and to reward the creator monetarily.
Thank you, Robert. Your cheque is in the mail.
Well shit, if I knew you were actually gonna read it, I would have come up with a better comment. I just wanted to feed the algorithm. I love your videos! Keep up the good work. I'll do the patreon thing when I get a job.
I know I'm going to enjoy this whole video because that SPICETHONY RACKTANO was just so bloody great.
In my LGS we play gentry tournaments, so you are limited to 4 unique rares/mythics and 15 uncommons. This creates very budget friendly decks not built around the super good rares from sets thus not needing proxies. (They also give prizes to top 3 but then raffle out the rest)
Thank you for another fantastic video Mr spice. We recently had a discussion about this in my playgroup so this is very useful
Ayyy! Glad to help :D
It's also nice to have proxies that can represent art that's more personal for me.
Ngl, as someone who saved a whole months spending money for a Volcanic Island, I'm find with proxy-ing. I think it's honestly ridiculous to feasibly think that everyone can afford reserve list cards that in all fairness, aren't always that game changing in commander.
Facts. And i agree. There are some cards which I'd love to save up to buy official versions of, and others that I'm VERY happy to proxy.
If they're not game-changing, then they don't need to be proxied. Right?
@@Syne111 if a player wants to play a peice of cardboard that hasnt been printed in 25 years, they shouldnt be forced to dump their life savings or learn how to make a working time machine.
I thought the point of playing magic was to test ones skill against another person. So why should someone care about whats in my wallet?
"Oh Mr. Proxy, you card" is genuinely the greatest, most seamless pun I've ever heard. That's not hyperbole, I really don't think you could do a pun better than that.
I love sheepwave's art so much and I'm so glad you had her on this video : )
YEEE IM ENGAGING FOR THE ALGORITHM
ALL HAIL THE ALGORITHM
ALGORITHMIC ASSAULT
ENGAGEMENT!
Yeeee booiiiiii!!!!!
Oh gawd engage that shit bruh
Love it. I've been advocating for proxies for years. My advice: use color proxies in sleeves so it feels and looks enough like the real thing, but still obviously a proxy. Only proxy within you power level and budget, that cuts down on feel bads. Rule 0 should be your guiding rule, use it!
Yes please
YOU MEAN I CAN PLAY A COMMANDER DECK WITH THE CARDS I WANT AND NOT SPEND MY RENT? WOW
Stop being a thief. Be homeless to play a card like us real magic players
“Maybe you should stop eating Avacado Toast so you can actually afford that Scalding Tarn”
My thing with proxies will always be that I just don't want it to be the card name written on a basic land. I need to be able to easily read the card because I have trouble remembering what every card does at a moment's notice, and I shouldn't have to stop the game to look the card up.
This was a great video and I agree with everything else :)
I work at my LGS, we have a house rule for proxies: Are you playing a store sanctioned event? Depends on the card. True duels and insanely rare cards that no one can afford and we don't have? We'd rather you don't, but we won't stop you.
Things we have? Not allowed.
Are you playing with your friends just at the store? We give zero shits
Whoever did the animation for the cards deserve a clap on the back. They where so well done!
Engagement
Appreciation
Further Engagement
Love
Confusion
Donkey!
I really appreciate you taking the time to caption this video, it's made it a lot easier for me (and I'm sure many others) to access. Also, missed opportunity to put "A Spite Video. By Spite8rack aged 24" in the intro. :P
25:28 this hits different after the Pinkerton situation.
24:30 "Good lord this is a child's card game, what's going on here?"
I lost it, lmao
30 seconds in and he said Twitter and I had a “dear god”
This is an awesome assessment of proxies, thanks. I would add one thing that I'm surprised you (as one of the best aesthetic and flavour mtg channels) didn't bring up. I don't like when I play against ’card-name-only-sharpie-proxies’. It means it's up to me (as the opponent) to remember what the card is, what it does, what it costs etc. Also it breaks the feel and emersion of the game.
Comments lead to Engagement going up so that gatekeeping goes down
Gatekeeping goes down make me heart go UP!
My friends and I recently got back into magic after not playing for years. We've been playing commander with 100% proxied cards and it's great. You can make so many decks so quickly. Our deck building skills have been increasing rapidly, and we're playing decks with tons of fun, powerful cards.
I do believe that using well made proxies can create an MTG deck that is aesthetically uniform and I definitely want to do that at some point. Like making an izzet storm deck that has lightning effects on every card or has a particular art style. Would be absolutely sick!
I remember playing in Saviors of Kamigawa draft on release day, the judge made some proxies as they ran out of a certain number of basics I needed so they made proxies of the cards I needed. The head Judge can issue proxies which are legal in sanctioned events.
I have perused Meghan's artwork and it is absolutely amazing! I'm glad you had her in this video!
Turning their mockery of proxies into a whole video incentivising good practices, great art and also incentivising charity donations.
Sweetie, you deserve better.
As always, a perfect argument with sound reasoning and delivery, as well as some odd jokes here and there. I absolutely love it, have a good holiday season you spicy wonderboy.
A couple more great examples of needing proxies:
- Nigh-infinite cards such as Scute Swarm, which can create hundreds of copies of itself in a single turn if you build around it
- Garth One-Eye, who can _MAKE A BLACK LOTUS_
- Using dice as +1/+1 tokens (or any others)
People at my LGS tend to just put 1 token/copy and dices on it to represent the number of tokens/copies.
Been marathoning all your videos waiting for this one. Your content is amazing, keep the good work and be safe out there ❤
Bless you and your cotton socks
At MF Bologna, there were multiple judges in the command zone that said they don‘t care if you play Proxies as long as they were recognizable as proxies and the table was fine with it, despite us playing in the official command zone. It is funny how people on the internet get worked up about something that wizards and organizers are essentially fine with.
Aye, Commander is generally a much friendlier place in general lmao
I think a big part of the 'proxies bad' argument is veiled around the bad "If you can't afford them you shouldn't be able to play them, stop crying about it" argument. It's just elitist gatekeeping, really. Those people are angry that people are having fun playing the game with proxies of cards that they spent a lot of money on, and to them, their money or time spent is their ''''permission'''' to play those cards, 'how dare others play with mechanical game pieces without having a similar investment' is their personal angry gripe that they're trying to warp into a thinly veiled anti proxy argument.
@@elizabethhicks4181 Makes ya wonder if they would similarly be upset if someone got a bunch of good cards as a gift from a friend. That person still didn't spend the money to get those cards so it would be the same argument.
I'm so glad you have made this video Spice. My friend and I were poor teenagers that liked the raw power of Vintage and would construct decks by assigning different suits of poker cards a magic card name (we each needed about four full poker decks apiece). Proxies shouldn't be a dirty word in Magic: The Gathering. Without them a vanishingly small number of fans will ever have the ability to play with those ancient cards and experience the rush of having the most broken combos at their fingertips.
I have 2 different play groups and both of them have moved towards proxies. It made the power level among decks much more even and consistent since everyone had the expensive cards they normally couldn’t afford but should run in decks.
i posted this in my playgroups FB-group i think we needed it. thank you and happy holidays dear mr. spice
Really liked the proxy art scrolling through with the credits. It was fun to visually engage with after the content itself was over. If you feel like adding that or something similar to future credits where it makes less sense thematically, I think it would be a fun more permanent addition.
Fully agree tbh. I may do that with a kind of credits of reading material for my larger researched projects.
@@Spice8Rack Please do!
I freakin love you dude, like your videos are freaking long, but you're pretty cool so they're fun to watch XD
One day I will make a 10 minute video again... one day
@@Spice8Rack Nah, fuck that
Spite takes time
Ah yes, my favourite MtG content creator: Spite8Rack.
So glad that "In response I bolt myself" is back to coming immediately after "I am saying this only...", I always look forward to that part of the video.
You getting that warning for the werewolves visible through the sleeves reminds me of the first time I bought card sleeves, which was at a Dark Ascension pre-release draft at the lgs and first and only official event I took part in, where I'd drawn mostly things for werewolves, so to play them I bought a pack of sleeves so that the card backs wouldn't give them away. When looking at the different colours of sleeve available (the packaging didn't actually say the colours) I settled on a type that looked silvery. Opened it up and turns out they were transparent, and the silvery look was because the sleeves were stacked. I think it's easy to see why they were literally the least useful sleeves to have picked in that situation.
Please, I REALLY need to know D's reaction to this video now!
Are we going to get Mill vs Discard as a Christmas gift?
no we get that at turn of the century
It's always a serious treat to get a spicy video such as this. I'm so glad you had Megan on! She's a great artist and deserves the exposure!
Shiiittttt… I use proxies for almost every Alpha/Beta card I own! I’m not even letting my wife break out the actual cards. Everyone we play with is well aware that I do indeed own the cards that I’ve proxied and they completely understand why I’m not tossing around $30,000.00 on my kitchen table. Plus, if you’ve ever tried to play with cards that you’ve had graded, you know that it’s not conducive to a smooth game of MtG. I was fortunate enough to have started playing literally right as Alpha shipped and that my parents are diligent organized people. I stopped playing when I left for college in 1998 and completely forgot about my collection until 2015 when my parents were moving to their retirement property. I had no idea what the cards were worth because I had been out of the community for sooo long, but a friend of mine was having a breakdown over what he was seeing and filled me in. Long story short, I don’t play any “official” tournaments anymore and I’m not trying to be ultra competitive. I just want to have fun playing MtG and relish in the nostalgia of feeling like the 15 year old who got his first summer job at a comic/card shop back in 1993. I think everyone should be able to enjoy any card that they want without having to fork over $10,000 minimum for an Alpha Louts or multiple $1,000’s a piece for Alpha Duals (yes, I am aware that Beta and Unlimited are “cheaper”, but they’re still in the same neighborhood as far as I’m concerned). I promise that if I hadn’t compiled my collection and forgotten about it, there’s no way I’d spend anything close to what the market wants for any card, regardless of its power level. I swear, I remember getting yelled at by my mom for a month plus because I bought a 2nd Lotus for $155.00, but she doesn’t want to hear about how it was actually a good investment. Looking back through, I can’t believe I was happy to spend that on a single card and I wouldn’t do it today. I’m all for proxies and that’s a blanket statement, I don’t care if you own a physical copy of the card in question or not, it’s a game and traditionally games are intended to be fun and enjoyable (at least I think so). I don’t see any issue with proxies being used outside of tournaments as long as they aren’t being used to con people out of their money. Sorry for the long ass comment, I got lost in the weeds a bit there.
coming back to this vid for no particular reason. Just cuz.
God I've been making my own alternate art proxies and now I just want to SHOW THE WORLD
Spice continues to radicalize his viewers.
Engagement!
That freezeframe with the title is perfection.
Late side note on your break-away comment: While you are allowed proxies in hidden zones, they aren't allowed in public zones.
713.5. If the substitute card is face up in a public zone, it should be set aside and the double-faced card
or meld card that it represents should be used instead.
This is probably the rationale for why an official copy is required in sanctioned tournaments. And yes, I realize a rule as a reason for the rule is circular.
watching this on my birthday and THIS VIDEO IS ARGUABLY THE BEST GIFT I HAVE GOTTEN THIS YEAR.
Wow, your production quality is trough the roof :O
I mean it's like that most of the time, but still :D
Bless you
@@Spice8Rack Especially the "fever dream" with the talking cards was really impressive. I thought I was watching a medium-budget TV-show for a moment.
It's nice to see a progressive voice in the Magic community, bringing culture to the troll caves of Dominaria :')
Most people: Don't feed the trolls
Spice: This video + Charity
Dont you love engagement
That feeling you mentioned at 39:25 about artwork, I didn't realize it until I drew my own token cards for the Mystery Booster playtest cards like Time Sidewalk and Gunk Slug. It reminded me of childhood, again. Such a great, warm feeling from such a simple action.
Can't tell you how much I appreciate the emetophobe warning. Bless you.