Counterfeits Are Not Proxies, By The Way
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มิ.ย. 2024
- Super interesting mixing up of terminology from a Reddit post, and a recent conversation with some viewers got me to thinking - are new players confused between a Proxy and a Counterfeit?
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#mtg #magicthegathering #proxies - เกม
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PleasantKenobi: "Cards must be clear and readable to the opponent."
WotC: 'Prints textless 4c Omnath'
The easiest way to avoid a lot of this is to just change the card backs to be super obviously non-official card backs.
Agreed. I meant to mention it but it slipped my mind.
Especially when you're very likely running opaque card sleeves anyway and the different card backs won't matter.
100%
It’s hilarious because in my opinion this entire problem stems from the reserve list and cards not generally being accessible.
"Piracy is a service problem" strikes again.
IMO we should stop policing the way low income people play this very expensive game.
Outside of a tournament, which I'd suggest is basically all of magic, who cares right?
In a tournament, sure let's follow some rules. That makes sense
My only problem is who your supporting. Perhaps the seller is always honest about their counterfeits (by that I mean specifying that’s what they are) but how can you know that? Sure they could sell to you honestly but what if they have other outlets where they are scamming unknowing buyers? What if people aren’t careful about letting their friend know they aren’t real and lends them out and they end up taking those to a tournament and getting booted for fakes? What if the seller your supporting and allowing to continue also sell to people who end up trying to trade off those counterfeits to others for their legitimate and expensive cards because the second party just assumes the person they’re trading with is being honest? I wish this game were cheaper and it’s so stupid that they’re probably people out there who would make excellent Magic players but they never even try to play because of the high cost. With that said I don’t think counterfeits are the answer, I think the answer is the widespread promotion and acceptance of proxying. Not only that, we should also encourage new players to look into buying singles to fill out there decks and I think getting the singles at good prices is a little easier now that the most expensive cards in a given set have multiple premium versions found in collector boosters along with the basic printings. I remember the days where Tarmogoyf was well over 70$ and that was the price of the non foil version! Nowadays, since WoTC produces both the chase versions of a card and the basic version it’s made single buying a lot more cost effective as those basic versions are a little cheaper than they would have been if those other, blinged out versions didn’t exist. Another way to promote Magic to those on a budget is to introduce them to formats that are cheap to get into like pauper! Let them know they’re formats that exist where one could build the best decks without dropping 500$-8000$ and they can involve the same amount of skill and strategy as those expensive formats. Finally I think introducing players to quality budget deck techs can also really help, sure maybe you won’t be top eighting a tourney with Mono-White Tokens or Black Burn but I’m sure with a little practice one could dominate FNM or locals!
And at your kitchen table, that’s fine.
But a sponsored tournament, in a hall paid for by vendors?
No one is keeping you from playing “the game”. It’s only playing the game in a specific context. Organized play is like 2% of all Magic played.
I genuinely don't understand what the problem is of counterfeits as proxies as long as there is no attempt to sell / trade. I prefer real magic cards, but if someone wants to bring fake cards to a 'no proxy' tournament it's honestly fine like, what's the effective gameplay difference? I don't care if Timmy didn't spend 500 dollars on a Lion's Eye Diamond even if I myself have a legit copy. Play the player not the wallet.
Mark the card as proxy on the back like any decent person would and any moral issues are solved instantly if No Proxy tournament play is an issue
the issue is that if rules stated "no proxy" then no proxy is allowed. allowing some people not honor this rule will have the exact effect you say you want to avoid. some people who cannot afford all needed cards will have "no proxy" decks because they adhered to the rule while others will have better cards because they have proxies. this makes the result of the game be influenced by the price of the cards.
on the other hand events allowing proxy should have no such issue with players using "counterfeit" cards if they do not try to pass them as real cards. also... just print such "counterfeits" by yourself. do not support materially people stealing from others.
@@m1gr3nA the problem with “no proxy” edh tournaments is that you’re at such a disadvantage playing with budget constraints compared to wallet warriors who have cradles, abdur duals, and other exorbitantly expensive staples. I feel that it’s a much scummier move to hand the richest players such as massive advantage in a competitive tournament than it is to try and sneak some proxies under the radar. At that point you aren’t complaining about cheating, power level, or other in-game problems, you’re just upset that someone didn’t spend thousands of dollars on their deck
@m1gr3nA That's the kind of mentality that gatekeeps formats like Vintage, Legacy, and cEDH. What gameplay affect does counterfeit cards have on tournament play that warrants a specific "No Proxy" tournament? The entire concept makes no sense, as it's essentially openly pay to win. I prefer real cards, and I have almost all the staples I'd want barring Timetwister (yet) but I don't have a fragile enough ego to think Timmy playing a counterfeit Cradle in an Elf deck because it'd cost more than the rest of the deck just to play one is morally wrong. It's my choice to collect these staples and play them in my decks and it should stay exactly that, a choice.
No Proxy tourneys aren't really about showing who's best in a format, it's basically just a way for Magic Boomers and wealthy people to show off their collection, and they don't want the peasants getting in the way of their exclusive club. This is a problem that has no business existing in the first place, the only entity that benefits from No Proxy tourneys is Wizards themselves, and I don't think much needs to be said about Wizards lately.
I do agree about materially supporting Counterfeiters, but would ten dollars for a playset of Mox Diamonds really make THAT much of a difference anyways?
Play the player, not the wallet.
@@MalevolentMantis I'm going to assume that when you mean "tournaments," you mean unofficial ones supported by a non-wizards enyity.
I hope that's what you mean at least
The issue is that conterfeits existing means someone will get ripped off. Even if you dont personally try to sell/trade them, someone will, and most likely it will be by accident because if your proxy is identical to a real card, its gonna be quite easy to confuse them, or forget which one was a proxy in a deck or collection with mixed cards.
And the whole issue dissapears if you simply buy proxies from a place that like puts a watermark on the back, or anything. It doesnt has to be obvious during gameplay, but if someone is searching through your trade bin, they shoud be able to know if that mana crypt is real or not without having to blindly trust you, or be a counterfeit expert. Like thats not asking for much, right? Specially when it has ZERO impact on gameplay, which is the whole purpose of proxies.
I own a Grim monolith, it's expensive. I have a high quality foil proxy too, it's so accurate it's essentially a counterfeit.
I want a foil deck, but I'm not paying 2-$3000 for a Foil monolith. I own the real non-foil card, I'm playing it. I'm not attempting to sell them. The deception is only in how shiny it is.
...so it's a counterfeit.
@@robertk1834 my foil is, my non-foil is not.
I think there is no need to make this an argument of “shades of gray”. The card is a counterfeit or it is not. They should not exist. There could be a world where that “proxy” of yours get in the hands of the wrong people and they use it to scam others. We can prevent this by never making them.
Dont matter if they aint selling tho. They can also just pull out their real grim monolith if needed.@@robertk1834
@@robertk1834 if its not used for fraud its not counterfeit by definition
In reality, some people will comment or have issue with obvious proxys even in casual games. The more your proxys look like regular cards the less negative feedback you get.
Just make the card back different, problems solved.
Yeah, i hate the fact that i have to pay 3$ for a chinese one insstead of just printing them just to not get mixed looks from randos at a LGS
this makes zero sense, i'd rather someone have a real-looking proxy i can immediately identify as the card it is than something they scribbled on a land or a piece of back paper.
@@DankAudioStash24 This is the answer. You cannot trade it, but when you play with it, it looks the same.
If the only way you’re deceiving people about the nature of your proxies is while playing casually at the LGS, you aren’t doing anything wrong.
I have seen an actual fight prompted by someone getting salty losing to a player he found out had a number of proxies.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen some elitist dog his friends into joining his “I’m not playing against proxies” nonsense.
And the Brokie-type mockery/bullying is something I’ve seen at a number of the LGSs I’ve played at.
(My old job had me running up and down the state of Florida Thursday/Sun, so I frequently played somewhere new pretty much every week for 6 months with few repeats of a store.)
Anti-Proxy players are by and large *exceptionally* entitled, very unpleasant people. With maybe 16-17 exceptions out of a few hundred encountered, I’d be comfortable saying the world would be improved by their long-term banishment to a desert isle.
Protecting yourself from becoming a target of harassment is more important than some silly distinction about card provenance.
Like it or not, *WotC* says, “If you aren’t playing it at a sanctioned event, and you aren’t trying to *sell it* as a real card, your proxies are fine.”
They would not have included that comment about sale, if they weren’t including “counterfeit” proxies in their policy.
WotC doesn’t care if someone makes atomically accurate copies of their cards, just so long as they stay out of the sanctioned tourneys and secondary market.
“Counterfeits” aren’t going away. Proxy King is a multimillion dollar enterprise. No one is walking away from profit like that.
I have Chinese duals, I've written "fake" on the back in sharpie. They are proxies.
I do exactly the same. I have almost identical cards (duals, Cradle, moxen) and I just write "fake" on the back.
And I'm free to play vintage and cEDH, when sleeved nobody experience changes, if I ever sell one they're clearly marked as fakes
This is the way
DANG OL SAME,just in case something happens to me. (I'm not selling any of my cards.
I'm a dragon ffs, the hoard is real
I get my cards printed at a professional printer who also cuts them. Often the art and layout is changed to make it obviously not the original (but still legible), and the card back is ALWAYS nothing close to a MtG card back.
this is what my head goes to as soon as someone starts talking about it, okay, let me just sharpie the back PROXY, NOT REAL
I do own proxies, but they have a very different back and the copyright clause was removed. So they look like real magic cards, but would never be mistaken for real ones after looking closely at one for a few seconds (texture of the proxies is also different). Thanks to that, they don't destroy the visual cohesion of the board (even if secret lair cards arguably destroy it already and are real cards).
This is the exact same thing I do, as well. I don't need everything to look uniform out of a misguided sense of propriety or elitism, either.
For budget of course, but I also have ADHD and having as much of the board as possible look like "real magic cards" is the only way I can even hope to understand the board state in commander. I'll NEVER shame anyone for doing the whole sharpie-on-a-basic thing, but it really does massively impact my ability to focus (which indirectly affects my mood, as well).
Same, though most of what I use I'd the vintage masters art so it's clearly a proxy, but makes it look modern
Proxies are just fine. Sanctioned tournaments don't allow them, that's on them unfortunately. Vintage is dying and will continue to do so due to lack of people who can afford to play it. Legacy and Modern aren't far behind. And anyone who is against proxies in commander, cedh or otherwise, is nobody I'd ever want to play with.
Dont u think that will ultimately just end magic as a game all together tho?
@storeblaa no, and in fact, MTG would get a full on Netrunner treatment from the community.
@@storeblaa I think nobody being able to afford to play because investors hoard all the cards, and WOTC refuses to meaningfully reprint most of the needed staples, is more likely to end it.
@@cax1175 just don't use this as an excuse to price out your friends or other players at your LGS
@@cax1175 there too many cards for that to happen tbh
I think that counterfeiting is actually an important market check against the wildly inflated prices on these pieces of cardboard.
I feel like any form of unoriginal card is a proxy by default until you try trading or selling them. Then it's counterfeiting.
For the most part, the game is about playing the game and in the spirit of that, everyone that wants to should have access to the full catalog, full stop. I don't give a shit where my opponents or friends got their cards or their quality or their "realness", we're playing the game we love and the physical cards have little impact besides the text, like you mention. Try to trade or sell a proxy as a "real" card, then it's a different story.
To me, collecting is a different part of the game. If someone wants to collect something super rare for $1000's, then you do you boo. But I'm gonna pay $4 for something that looks and functions exactly the same in anything other than a "real card" contest.
How would it be counterfeiting to sell or trade a card clearly labelled as a proxy?
@@Tacklepig not all proxies are clearly labeled.
Professionally produced proxies are often only identifiable by the dot-matrix “L” in the mana symbol on the back of a WotC Original.
These are made and marketed precisely due to a demand for cards that can’t be readily identified as proxies, especially when sleeved, because a lot of people (like me) think that no one at the LGS for FNM has a right to know if you’re using proxies.
Why anyone thinks another person is entitled to that info, I will never understand. I understand why an Anti-Proxy player would *want* that information. Just not why someone thinks they should be obliged.
Women wear knockoff perfume and designer-imitation clothing all the time, and they sure don’t tell everyone who compliments either that they’re knockoffs.
Millions of men wear imitation Rolexes.
What makes this any different?
The fact that we live in an age where a single cardboard gamepiece can be so expensive that we even have to have this conversation is ridiculous.
Proxies, counterfeits, fakes, or whatever arbitrary label we want to place on them only serve one purpose; To play the game, we all love.
I'm been playing Magic since about 1997, and counterfeit cards have been around even then. The only issue I can see is when dishonest people try to sell counterfeits as a way to profit off of an LGS or other players.
However, this whole topic brings up a lot of different circular arguments in itself. Is it that Magic the Gathering itself is too expensive, or is it the secondary market causeing the issue? Should this game be made inclusive to everyone, or simply a privilege for those that can afford it? How do you determine skill if a paywall exists to play with the most powerful cards in the game? Should cards be provided at tournaments by the hosts from submitted decklists from all participants since the players are paying to compete, or should everyone have to only play with cards based on their financial positions or regional availability? So many questions and concerns all coming from one simple thing; people want availability to play a trading card game in an honest and unrestricted way.
I don't think it's the majority of players that are as concerned with proxies and counterfeits in my experience. It's more of the collectors, investors, and anyone that's in the secondary market trying to profit from expensive cardboard that seems worried about this.
TLDR;
Magic Boomer speaks out about how cardboard rectangles are becoming expensive, thus creating the need for counterfeits by the players wanting to play the game.
As someone that stopped playing MtG due to reasons you've mentioned regarding price and availability of cards I have to agree with your point.
When I've played on FNM it was egregious to put my budget deck against meta decks. Nothing big was on the line, but usually it just led to playing at the bottom tables, not bringing anything (unless I've been chosen in 'loser raffle')... No way to express skill when even manabase was a bit too expensive for standard deck...
Haymakers, answers and counterspells... all better and more expensive.
It didn't matter as much for kitchen table Magic, so there's at least that...
I agree that price is often inflated by investors and speculators of the secondary market to nonsensically high numbers. But at the same time those ridiculous price numbers are part of what make me wary of the proxy/counterfeit culture in general. I wanna start by saying I philosophically agree with the nature of proxying because the game should be accessible first and foremost. Heck, I've done it for the thoracle combo for a Yuriko deck because I didn't have 40 dollars to spend at the time.
However, I do think we also have to acknowledge not all cards are created equally, mechanically speaking. Gaea's Cradle is one of the most powerful lands ever printed and would boast a truly impressive price tag, even if it wasn't driven up by "investors" and the intentionally short supply caused by the reserved List (also forced to be created by mtg "investors"). It's also a card that exceeds, for me, an undefined level where it stops being proxying because a card is hard to get or uncomfortably expensive, and is instead proxying because a card is incredibly powerful. When it becomes the latter using the excuse of the former, that's where I start to have an issue.
I'd be grumbled regardless of a proxy or not when facing a Gaea's Cradle, but if someone really wants to spend upwards of a thousand dollars just to beat me at a card game, then I hope it helps them sleep at night. My bottom line is just that I want to know if the card that's kicking my butt and costs way too much to be reasonable is fake or not, and counterfeits generally seem to be trying to deceive that as opposed to proxies. However, I also agree that it's only really fundamentally an issue when someone tries to move those counterfeits into the collections of others'.
I lost track of where I was going at the end, I'm gonna be honest. I don't want anyone to be beaten by a wallet, but I don't want them to be beaten by printers either, and I feel like both problems can come back to the secondary market and its investors.
@@brandtthebrent7227 No, the game should not be accessible. It's a COLLECTIBLE/TRADING CARD GAME. The WHOLE POINT is that there is some barrier to owning whatever card you want. The fact that some cards are rare/expensive and the historical reasons for that makes it interesting. The fact that you have to start from nothing and do some work to build that ideal deck is what makes the game satisfying and worth playing for any extended period. If you can't afford it, go do something you can afford. Go play cops and robbers in the playground or something. By the way, I've spent less than $1000 on MTG over my entire decade of playing it (and currently happen to own less than $100 worth of cards).
Inb4: it's only counterfeits if you're trying to sell them as reals. Everything is proxies.
If the cards are looking to mislead people into thinking they are real, they are counterfeit Magic cards and are a no go from me, chief.
Nothing like gatekeepers of the game, shutting out people who can't afford the ridiculous prices of mtg cards
What if you sell your entire collection 5 years from now and forget to tell the person buying it that there are some counterfeit cards in there hiding in one deck. So long as the card can be easily identifiable as a fake card, its fine, but some are pretty difficult to tell.
@PleasantKenobi but I'd argue the only time there's any reason to lie about the authenticity is if you're trying to do something shady like sell it or trade it for the same value, or if the people around you are anti proxy.
Functionally that is true. Regardless of your ethical stance on it the point of a "counterfeit" isn't just to represent a real one for the purposes of playing the game.
My proxies are pieces of paper inserted above a common in a sleeve. Costs me less than a quid for a whole edh deck.
EDH is the only healthy format left, and it will never have sanctioned events... So why buy official cards for artificially inflated prices? The chase rare and bulk common cost the same to produce. The "whales" are too addicted to stop throwing money at wotc. Let them subsidize the game for everyone else like they do in the gacha game monetization model..
It's ok to play with 100% high quality proxies, since playing with proxies is now official.
Since when is playing with proxies official?
Since wotc made $1000 proxy's. (30th anniversary which aren't tournament legal)
@@weggles That garbage fest that was Magic 30 lmfao
@@pirateofthebeans_2393 Yeah this was insane, especially since they're not tournament legal.
@@Y00bi like I would get it if they were like $30 to $40 per pack (still steep but more reasonable) but 250 per pack, and you could only buy it a bundle of four. Is horrendous.
Pretty much I only proxy in casual commander with printer paper that I sleeve an actual card behind for thickness/shuffle consistency. That’s mostly so I can make a deck, play test it and then incrementally acquire the actual cards to replace the proxies over time. It makes the approachability and deck design space for commander nice because nothings a worse feeling than spending a ton on a new deck and have it dud out in practical play.
With all this, the fronts are obvious that it’s printer paper and use art that’s recognizable, as a person who is dyslexic, keeping the arts consistently recognizable at a glance is nice. Obviously u make sure over time I can get official works or even commission alters to ensure the ecosystem stays intact
My grey area issue with no proxy legacy/vintage/cedh is with people who own the expensive cards but don’t want to shuffle up the expensive cards. Even double sleeved, there’s a chance the cards get damage during play. Accidentally bending a card, falls off the table, any number of things. I can empathize with someone who isn’t comfortable subjecting $5000 to potential loss of value. No proxy events of those formats are more than just high rollers only. It’s high rollers who are willing to lose everything. It’s the equivalent of sitting at the high stakes poker table. Even if you’re careful, you’re not in control of everything around you.
There is no value lost. The card is still usable. The idea of "value" comes from selling. If you're never going to sell, it doesn't matter.
@Moonwizard420
So if you have some art in your house that you like but dont want to sell, it's not a problem if someone spills pasta sauce on it because you didnt intend on selling it? While monetary value is only really based on what people are willing to pay for something, that doesnt change the fact that people dont like their stuff getting damaged. And also, why are you assuming that they wouldnt want to sell the card at a later date? Lots of people view collectables purchases as investments.
counterfeits are the BEST proxies lol
Good-looking proxies are fine right up until the point that you lie and say they’re real.
Why not have good looking proxies that are clearly not Magic cards, to avoid that kind of problem?
@@PleasantKenobi Fair point. The only ‘realistic’ proxies I have are a Forgetful Fish deck, and it’s in garbage sleeves in a Tupperware. Nobody’s mistaking that for an actual several-hundred dollar stack of classic cards.
@@PleasantKenobiwhy not mind your own business instead of having a stick up your ass about something that doesn’t hurt you at all? Really shitty way to police how others play the game.
Meanwhile the only proxy I have is of Trouble in Pairs and it has the real card behind it, I just wanted different art. 😂
Secret Lair undermines the "Card should be noticeably different looking from the original" angle greatly.
One thing I find useful about proxies in my edh decks, is it's kinda like a wishlist for trading, since I'd rather have the real cards. Magic is expensive, i really can only afford to do a handful of drafts every so often, and then i trade from those to make my edh decks more real.
After the Black Lotus Stunt WOTC tried I'm not so sure about counterfeit cards being illegal anymore.
I have a lot of counterfeit cards.... mostly because I care about aesthetics and when I first started wanting proxies of cards I own, I just bought these counterfeits from online sellers. I later learned how to create my own art files and found a company that would print off proper proxies that have mostly real looking front faces and unofficial card backs. But now when I take apart decks, it's sometimes hard for me to figure out if some of the real-looking cards are real or if they were one of the many many counterfeits I bought.
but that said, I personally have no problem with people doing like I am, which is to say making proxies that look at a glance like real magic cards when in sleeves since this just helps the game play work out better if someone can glance across the table and more or less know exactly what cards I have in play based just on familiar frames and art. They aren't looking to fool someone into thinking they're real since if I were to ever take them out of the sleeves it would be immediately obvious they're not official cards.
One of the major points about proxies in non-sanctioned Vintage is that your opponent should not be at a disadvantage because you don't own the real cards -- e.g., no sharpie on a basic proxies. In fact, as much as possible, it should appear and read like a normal magic card. I'd push for sticking closer to looking like a normal card for proxies than most secret lairs do, point of fact. That doesn't mean that counterfeits are good or even reasonable, though. At a bare minimum, a different back would make sense. That still leaves the problem of tournaments, though. I personally think a good compromise -- so long as it's only used sparingly -- is to replace the set symbol with the word "proxy." That way, you can easily tell what it is by the artwork and card design, but there's no scamming anyone, including tournaments.
Of course, a large part of this is that I don't really respect copyright when held for decades by massive corporations. The hoarding of art is something that I consider a direct evil, and I consider the term "intellectual property" to be akin to 1984's doublethink in that it warps language in a deliberately propagandistic manner, so reproducing WotC's copyrighted art and symbols doesn't bother me one bit -- at least, for things like old expensive RL cards, which are the things most people will be most driven to proxy. I think the disrespect in that case is well earned. That said, there are also benefits to using different art as well, in that it's more obviously a proxy, and you can support independent artists doing good work.
There is nothing inherent to the term proxy that means it should be a) obvious or b) not similar to what it's representing. A counterfeit is just a nice looking proxy right up until the owner lies about it. Obvious proxies are no less guilty of outright IP theft than a counterfeit, so its pretty weird seeing you poo poo ethical or moral arguments earlier in the video only to then argue that proxies are morally superior. Also the argue that counterfeits hurt peoples collections is genuinely bizarre, if I proxy or counterfeit original duals how is that "tearing it out from under them"?
I prefer my opponent using Chinese printed proxies than seeing them use "legit" secret lair garbage.
The shitty out there artwork pisses me off so fucking much. You cant fucking read it
this is such a dog shit take holy shit
Facts
I recently bought myself and my fiancée full edh decks from a site that prints proxies. They are good quality but they're also not hard to tell that they aren't real with any level of scrutiny. They and myself don't try to hide the fact that they are proxies but they are the original arts so there could be something said there. While I never felt that proxying an entire deck felt justified, it helped my wallet and allows my fiancée to have something to physically hold, learn what they do better and she got to pick the art so it's HER deck. I have every intention of buying the cards as she wants them but in so far as it would just be us playing or with friends who know they are all proxies we have never had issues. From everything I have encountered as long as you're upfront that you have proxies and especially aren't attempting to sell them, people are really cool because at the end of the day Magic is a community based game and the more people you have the better. The size of a person's wallet shouldn't bar anyone from playing what they want or having fun messing around with high power cards. Just don't try to cheat someone out of money or play an absolutely busted 9-10 in a low power pod.
I think its wonderful you got to play. Are the card backs official Magic backs? I should have talked about this in the video, but a good way to move away from the problems like them getting sold or traded, is a non-stsndard back.
@@PleasantKenobi Thankfully they are. I have some that do and don't. Those that don't have a different back I always feel worse about because even if you can tell by looking at them it still feels scummy. I'd never try to pass a proxy off as real. I only use them as playtest cards, I'd never sell them. If I ever run into a situation where someone isn't cool with proxies, I run a different deck. I have also never been the first person to ask if proxies are okay because I have other options.
@@PleasantKenobi Glad you addressed this here, I was going to ask your thoughts on this. I have a friend who has an entire vintage cube he had printed with mostly normal fronts, but the backs are all the YGO card back. No way any of them pass in a trade or selling situation, but the cards are readable during play. Seems like a reasonable compromise.
This is exactly the use that makes them proxies.
@@hexginnkgo I'd recommend writing something on the back of them with a sharpie (like 'proxy') to put yourself even more at ease. Should never really be visible during a game so it wouldn't be a problem there and its preeeetty easy to tell its fake in any sort of trade scenario.
90% of the time, my proxies will be professionally printed with the original MTG art, but no foil stamp, no WOTC copyright info, a custom set symbol, and a custom card back. The card can be identified at a glance, both for the identity and legitimacy of the card.
By definition, proxies are made to represent something of value. Counterfeits are made as an exact duplicate with intent to deceive.
My opinion is that all counterfeits are technically at least proxies. The question is whether anyone is intentionally passing off the proxy as the real thing, regardless of how accurate the proxy may be. In this way:
1: "No proxies" also means "no counterfeits"
2: The real issue is intentional deception.
3: Proxies for cards you do or don't own can now be a different discussion entirely.
I suggest representations of cards a player owns (or is considered to own) keeps the overarching "proxy" term and we create a new term for proxy cards that player does not own. Trying to resolve both those discussions at once every time is needlessly confusing.
I have one counterfeit/proxy, and that's of a Bayou. I own the card and keep it with the deck, but I don't want to play with the actual card. So, I bought a counterfeit/proxy that looks identical. Whether or not someone is fooled by it is irrelevant to me, because that's not the point.
Agreed. As long as there is obvious proof that the card is a proxy (unique art, different back, etc.), it sits in the gray area. Cards that are intended to be forgeries, are nowhere near appropriate.
A possible differentiation between counterfeits and proxies is when you sell them and how you bought them.
Any copy made of a card is a proxy and must be sold and bought as such.
If you buy the proxy, you don't want or can't afford the real thing, but you accept to pay for a copy service. It's in a grey area, but it's still a proxy.
A counterfeit is when a proxy is passed as the real deal.
My general method is to have the proxies printed with real-looking fronts, but *clearly marked* backs. Any cursory examination of the card will tell it isn't the real thing, it has the wrong back. But when I have everything sleeved up, my proxies aren't distractingly weird or hard to tell what they do. The back I use even says flat out "Proxy: Not for Resale", to make sure there's no confusion.
Unfortunately, a while back, I found out a housemate of mine *did* go buy some counterfeit so-called-'proxy' cards. They're sitting in a binder away from the rest of the collection until we decide what to do with them, or if indeed they are the fakes we think they are, since they've long since lost track of which thins are which. Which is really annoying, because there's a Chains of Mephistopheles in there that I would *really* like if it were real, and we simply have no way to know if it's a counterfeit or part of their original old-school collection. Annoyance.
Been buying hi quality counterfeit cards for years to use as proxies. But before they are used i hole punch each one with the letter c on the bottom right away from text. Anyone trying to sell counterfeits as original cards is wrong. I usually use gold boarder and proxy cards when playing, but only to protect my original cards. Same rules for tourney play but original cards must be present.
To wizards legacy and vintage are only profitable on some sporadic moments as the playerbase in general tends to prefer seeing fancy versions of popular cards in collector’s boosters rather than reserved list cards of sets that in some cases even came out before they were born. Dominaria United sold poorly compared to other sets that came out that year even though its collector boosters gave people a chance to open a Legends card, which stands in stark contrast to other sets where you pulled fancy versions of cards in the set. Legacy and vintage will thus be an elite club consisting of players who once bought or inherited their fortunes and no other person can join. I think wizards has accepted that this will remain to be the case now. Why losing goodwill making these old and expensive formats more accessible if it can’t be the selling point of a product you publish?
Look, I just really like the Commit a Crime mechanic from OTJ, ok?
I don't love high quality counterfeits as a proxy.
Even as a player. If I can't afford card x why the fuck don't I just go get silly art attached to it. Something that makes me smile.
Personally, I just make my own cards and order them from the playing card site. If they look legitimate or legitimate adjacent I always give them fake backs.
That all said. The reason I love magic is the cards. And owning the cards. And the showcase of it. I love the idea of not having card xyz and running alt strategies. I just took 2nd place at a standard tournament with a deck I built with 7 bucks of cards. Imo I like playing with unique game pieces.
I have a counterfeit Cradle I bought thinking it was real that I still use as a proxy for the actual real one I keep in a hardcase. I always show it to the TO and the table before shuffling up and have never had anyone complain.
I ended up with some counterfeit OG duals, that looked pretty good, that I turned into proxies by making sharpie doodles on them (little stick figures, etc). Shows they aren’t real, but makes some people twitch when they first see them and don’t realize they are counterfeit.
I like my proxies nearly indistinguishable from the front and clearly a proxy on the backside.
Completely agree with the notion the older formats need proxies to survive and thrive, and honestly I think it's getting to that point with even more recent formats like modern and pioneer.
The price and attitude against proxies in 1v1 play is one of the biggest reasons why Commander has overtaken 1v1 competitive Magic. It's a very hard sell to get someone to drop $100's of dollars on deck for 1v1 play when they can play commander or cEDH for far cheaper while still playing at a higher power level if they want to by proxying.
Bring back wizards official proxies in the form of Gold Border cards!
If they printed a Cedh championship deck series in gold border they would do very well for themselves.
The Austrian Legacy league allows proxies of reserved-list cards that are over 50€. They have the list of allowed proxies on their website and you can get them for cheap at affiliated LGSs. The front of the cards look pretty much exactly like the original, but they have the leagues logo on the back, so you can easily tell them apart in terms of trading. When they are sleeved up however, they are virtually indistinguishable. Most legacy events in Austria allow these proxies and you don't have to tell anyone you are using them as far as I know.
This is honestly the best system. Make it impossible to deceive somebody in a trade, but make them still look like the original, to improve clarity.
Isn’t the only part that makes something counterfeit if they are meant to be sold as the genuine article? If the cards are announced as proxies then they lose their ability to be counterfeit.
I really try to call these cards playtest cards, the way Hasbro does. I appreciate the definition of proxy being a stand in for something, but something you own. Playtest cards with pretty art are lovely! Life is just too expensive these days, so playing the games we love is harder than ever. Our game is a luxury product! So creating playtest cards makes it accessible, and that is good.
Homie sounds rough, hes got a psychicfrog in his throat
No matter if it's the kislux or any other, my steadfast belief stands that only practitioners can perceive dissimilarities in the sack looks or the metal constituents
It warms my heart that something I've been evangelizing for decades is now FINALLY becoming mainstream. I think we can thank MTG 30th for cracking the ice on proxy use and them being different than counterfeits.
After Magic 30th, I really don't care if the front is exactly the same looking, as long is the backside is obviously different.
I ain't paying a hundred bucks for 1 piece of cardboard
Historically, I've bought proxies that /look like/ magic cards and when they arrive, I just write PROXY across the back.
They were definitely cheaper because I didn't have to help pay for the artist, and I have not thought about that before. I will do better in the future.
As someone who makes completely reskinned proxy EDH decks (ie Disney themed Bant enchantress, DC themed Boros Equipment), I always make sure to bring both legitimate and proxied decks to anything outside of my own pod of players. I also always if people at the table would prefer if I use the original card names (printed below the name box, Ikoria Godzilla style) or the new theme appropriate names and then go with the consensus.
The company I print with also doesn't allow the use of 'Wizards of the Coast' or anything that alludes to official MTG copyright, because they have a deal with wizards to try to prevent counterfeit cards from being printed.
I'm not game to do it, but I've seen so many fake magic cards at Comp REL events, and I've never told a soul because I want magic to be accessible to everyone
What about using the normal art on a different back? This is how my friends and I order our proxies. This way all the cards we use are recognizable but easily distinguished as proxies if you just flip them
I definitely feel like this is only coming from a competitive standpoint. In more casual areas, like Commander, Cube, or just kitchen table magic, this is definitely not as big as a deal. For example, my friends and I play EDH mostly through programs like OCTGN but rarely also with webcam magic. And we have full proxy decks because we're poor but love magic. I've also had many thousands of dollars of cards stolen from me at two different points in my life, so I don't want to have an expensive collection, I'd rather have an easily replacable one. I'm not looking to sell off any of my stuff, and it's more about the art of it. One of my friends has an Eldrazi deck with all Future Sight frames. I have a deck that's all extended art and has a lot of non-Magic art. However I also have cubes I've proxied that look similar to real cards, however they have their own set symbol, a different Magic back (all cards printed through the site I use have to have a different back), and there are some cards with non-Magic art. However I'm always upfront that they are proxies and I have no intention to sell them. I think a lot of the argument this video is making is in a competitive group where people have a lot of money to either buy custom proxies or just buy the real cards and kind of ignores both more casual and more poor environments.
I once had to chase this kid down for my grim monolith he stole, back in the urza's block days. I chased him into a corner. Scared him so much he literally peed himself. But I did not get my card back. What am i supposed to do? Strip search a kid on a busy street? So yes I use proxies for anything over 100$. They are very high quality. I think it's fun to show people how to tell that they are fake. They all come from the same place and all of them fail a simple light test.
Ironically most cedh players like “counterfeits” better than proxies. Why would anyone want to look at some fugly alternate art when you can just get the ones that look real (as long as they aren’t being sold as real).
I think that allowing obvious (maybe even wizards sanctioned) proxies for some extremely expensive cards in some tournaments might actually drive up the price of the real cards. Players love to pay for the aesthetics of their cards and if more people play those formats the demand for them will just get bigger, driving prices up for those who actually want to collect.
How do you incentivize people buying the "real" cards? Maybe force decks to have at least one non proxy version of each card, maybe make give them "shitty" low effort designs like the playtest cards. There's so much more to a card having value than just needing it to play a tournament.
Great content. I have been looking into having proxies made for my commander decks, specific to the mana bases. I have the cards, but have no intent of spending an extra $100 on lands every time I want to build a new deck, or have to rip apart an existing deck. I'd just stop building, since I am effectively getting priced out.
I plan to have a binder with my originals, and getting cards made that look like the real ones at the quickest of glances only. No copyright info, completely differnt backs, etc. It'd match up in frame formatting only just so I can keep some continuity on the field.
So, mine is a pretty niche example but I own one wholly proxy commander deck and several proxies in my other three decks. Most of them look like they could be normal Magic cards, but only from the front. The back is an entirely different back that could never be mistaken for the official card back.
However, I only purchased those proxies after I had stopped playing at my lgs. During the pandemic we obviously couldn't hang out at the store, and our habits didn't change once the lockdown ended. If I ever did go back to playing at the lgs I probably wouldn't bring the 100% proxy deck, and might not even brong the ones with a handful, just out of respect for the store.
Personally, even if the front is close to identical to an existing magic card, if the back isn't at all I wouldn't call that trying to deceice anyone.
I think counterfeits are only problem to knowingly sell someone them, but I don't have a problem otherwise. If I buy 99% of the cards in my deck from a store and counterfeit one that's out of my price range in order to play in an event that I otherwise couldn't; that's probably more healthy for the game and the store than not playing at all or playing something bad that's not going to be fun for either player. And most counterfeits are top of the line cards like mana crypt or moxes that generally have more informed buyers who know what to look for to spot fakes
The problem with price is that the price of cards isn't random, it's a function of the popularity of MtG as a whole and the cards specifically. Modern card prices aren't a function of scarcity in the supply side as WotC will print enough of any given set that no one will ever be unable to find sealed product at least of play boosters. This doesn't mean that the cards will be cheap however but there's nothing WotC can do about that. They're already flooding the market from the supply side. If they made boxes cheaper then they would just be scooped up even harder by speculators because the EV becomes even more upside down than it is right now. The majority of cards in each set are available for pennies and it's only the most desirable cards that keep their value and printing more boxes won't necessarily do anything to fix it, the problem is still all the people in the community gobbling up the singles, which doesn't seem like a bad thing necessarily.
I really think this one is pretty clear cut. You nailed it on the proxy vs counterfeit. I think proxys should be obvious enough that someone new to the hobby can tell they're a proxy. It is a terrible thing for the health of the game if people are gambling on whether or not they're getting a real card or a counterfeit when buying singles. I know a person who is counterfeiting cards and when I ask them why not just make the back of the card obviously not real or put the words proxy on the bottom, they never can answer. God I hate that person.
Due to the proxy Mana Vault using real MtG art, I wasn't sure whether it was a proxy or not at first: I recognised the art, but it didn't click that it should've been the Masterpiece frame. Secret Lair sometimes makes it quite difficult to figure out what is a proxy or not at a glance, haha. A bit of a gray area perhaps, but any inspection will show it's a proxy so it's entirely fine - it was just a little anecdote I felt like sharing.
I'm with you on the argument "selling counterfeits to the community - bad", but this is where you lost me:
"But... but what about collectors? What about WOTC (such a notoriously poor company btw)?"
Clearly, these are the sides of the argument that must be defended the most, lmao. Honestly, F them both.
"The game continues to live because of WOTC" - well, I'd say it's not thanks to wotc, but in spite of them running the business lol.
Community simply adapts to the reality where fake cards aren't welcome. And that's OK. If you have an option to print something without intention to sell it as a real card - just do it, and upsetting some gatekeepers and rich moguls should be the least of your concerns.
In our group proxying cards only happens if the card gets damaged and you don't have another copy, or the card has the exact text and art or the original, with the exception of a box stating that the card is a proxy
*of the original, not or
I think it all comes down to the card back. The only reason someone needs to accurately replicate a card back on a proxy is if they are playing unsleeved or proxying a DFC. In the modern era, sleeves are ubiquitous and expected, and frankly, its fine that you don't want to drop hundreds on real versions of your delux cardboard, but you can still drop $12 on a pack of dragonshields if you want to play this luxury game for as close to free as possible. For DFCs, you can just write what the card does on the back, or make a second proxy for the back.
So if you just leave the back of the proxy blank, it doesn't matter how accurate the front is, it can never be mistaken for a real card, it can never be argued to have been created for the purpose of being passed off as a real card, and it still functions perfectly well as a magic card in a (sleeved) deck. Any reputable printing company won't print a magic card back for you anyway (its copy-written).
i hate that even in the normal ass booster there can be like 3 variants of a card and its not even counting secret lairs. its insane
Proxies made to look 100% identical to authentic cards in order to deceive or profit: ❌
Proxies made to look 100% odentical to authentic cards because of an aesthetic preference on the part of the proxier: ✅
Frankly, i dont think its constructive to center thos discussion on the object. Its the behavior thats the problem.
As long they had a giant label saying not real. That should be enough to make it acceptable
Usually, if im looking to try out a whole deck, I print it on paper. If i like it, I give it the MPC treatment and eventually start replacing the proxies for real cards. The backs are always different art, so they're not exactly counterfeits.
It feels like the exclusion of proxies and counterfeits from constructed tournaments does obvious damage to the competitive legitimacy of the event. It's always struck me as odd that (what feels like) a sizable portion of the player base doesn't seem to mind.
I know the answer is to host counterfeit friendly tournaments. "Be the change you want to see" and all that.
I don't really accept the notion that counterfeits depreciate people's long standing collections. 1) No it doesn't. Collectors will care about and verify authenticity of a card. 2) No one should care about the investment dividends of someone's Magic collection.
...established players aren't having their collections "ripped out from under them" by high-quality proxies (counterfeits, if you will). They still *have* their collection, and can still play with those cards.
Mind you, I'm still not on board with people passing proxies off as real cards (because that is dishonest), but so long as everyone is up front about what is or is not an official MTG card, I actually prefer high-quality proxies. Of course, I prefer them to look like that nice, crisp Mana Vault instead of copying the old, ugly Mana Vault, but that's for aesthetic reasons.
EDIT: Also, the "that's how WotC makes their money" argument goes RIGHT out the window when we're talking about Reserve List cards. A better argument would be the ability to ensure that game pieces are consistent across the board (weight, size, shape, etc.) in order to prevent someone from using proxies to cheat while performing game actions like shuffling.
As well as the fact that it's not like WotC or the artists earn residuals on the reseller markets. Reserve list cards don't make Wizards profit because those products haven't been sold in 20+ years. Those cards still have immense value even if everyone ran proxies but only value to those willing to pay for them. As it has always been. They'd likely have MORE if everyone decided today to proxy OG duals. Those willing to buy them because they have value would result in sky rocketing prices but that only helps a single seller in the secondary market. While the art is owned by Wizards it's not like the artists get more or less based on how a card sells years after a set retires so even the argument of stealing licensed material for proxies falls on deaf ears.
That whole argument is in terms of every single sanctioned 60 card format, not just things like cEDH and Vintage.
If you allow proxies and counterfeits at those events, basically every single set MTG makes currently and in the future has lost all of their value. The game won't survive purely off of casual whales.
@@defectivesickle5643 I seem to recall pointing out that there's a good argument against proxies -- high quality or not -- regarding sanctioned play.
Also, last I checked WotC doesn't make much off of sanctioned play (hence divesting from it). Much about the current business model for MTG is unsustainable, largely catering to casual whales.
Finally, MTG will very likely outlive WotC. It won't be the first CCG to survive no longer being "officially" published.
@@vengerofthelight It's not about WOTC making money off of sanctioned tournaments specifically. It's about them making money off of players buying the cards needed to participate in sanctioned play.
I, personally, love the company I use for proxies because it lets me collect the cards (and alternative versions of those cards) that I normally wouldn't be able to (great condition unlimited or Arabian Nights / The Dark, for example) afford or find. Now, using those proxies...I will in casual play and may use in local tournaments to see if I have the SKILL to play these top-tier decks against other players, but only if allowed. If I find that I play the deck well, then I may think about purchasing the actual cards if I want to play in Official tournaments. But I doubt I'll do that as it is expensive as hell to get into Standard / Modern / Legacy.
Tonight I had someone say "I'd rather proxy cards that I don't want to take out of my binder. The way I see it, if I own at least ONE real physical copy, then I can proxy them into decks."
I said to them "But how many decks is acceptable? One or two I could understand. But if you have something truly expensive that you don't want to actually play (although I really don't understand why), do you feel it's appropriate to "proxy" it into 10 decks? Where is the line?"
They said "It will go in as many decks as I want. How is it any different to if I took the card out of one deck and put it into another? It's my Mana Crypt and I'm not risking it."
This mentality makes me feel like I'm going insane. For one, the card itself is really not that expensive, I figured they were talking about something like a cradle. But the thing I really want to scream is why does every deck have to have Mana Crypt? How is it not boring playing the same cards in every deck? I feel like people have "auto-includes" that fill half of every deck (something I genuinely don't believe in at all).
But ultimately I don't care. I'll never meet this person and I don't even play commander anymore. It just baffles me how people find that shit fun.
easiest thing to do if you want very realistic proxies, don’t have the deckmaster back. its immediately apparent at a proper glance, even if you’re trading cards and you accidentally have put one in your binder i can’t imagine someone wouldn’t see that it doesn’t have a proper card back. idk tho i dont have any proxies because my decks are pretty cheap
I hadn't really thought about counterfeits in a while, but I think that even after watching the video my stance has shifted to pro-counterfeit (at least in concept). I already spend less on the game than I used to because cards are too expensive - if I wasn't going to buy an ABUR dual anyway then nobody lost a sale. I still support my LGS by entering tournaments and buying deck boxes, sleeves, and drinks. And in fact it might encourage *more* spending at LGS since I'd be able to go to more events, and more excited to go to ones I can attend but feel stale because I've been playing the same deck for two years.
I won't do it because I don't want them to end up sold at the price of a real card by accident. But if that wasn't a possibility, I'd say that WotC has already done the damage, not the counterfeiters. For the health of the game they need to swap to the League model: make the base game cheap, monetize the hell out of cosmetics.
I mean, the post is basically asking "Is it still cheating if I don't get caught?"
It's more about how your "cheat" isn't really gaining an advantage in the game. And as long as you mark it as a proxy somehow, there isn't any real damage being done
@@jaredwright1655 if you're breaking a rule, it doesn't matter why you broke it - you're cheating.
I know a few people locally who have started buying and selling whole proxy decks and individual cards. They have however been using AI for the art, and im wondering where that leads us in the future. Not just with proxies but MTG as a whole.
As far as I'm concerned. The mana vault proxy you had a problem with is fine. It doesn't have Wizards of the Coast's copyright on it and a lot of proxies that look like proper magic cards usually have Proxy written on them somewhere. They'd only fool someone who has never seen a magic card before whilst still being faithful to the original magic card in design.
The ones I own also have a completely custom card back whilst staying faithful to the border/art/design of an OG magic card printing.
Now, the big question; How do you feel about playing Proxies of MTGArena Alchemy "Rebalanced" cards in person?
Far as I'm concerned, the general rule is always if everyone involved in the games knows what's being played and agrees to it, anything goes of course. The skill is in the player and the construction of the deck, not the wallet.
But yeah, deception is not ok, especially if you sell it or artists miss out on income etc.
WOTC literally allowed proxies in sanctioned events. We had pro tours with them. That's how they dealt with double faced cards originally.
They can't close pandoras box now.
I do my proxies at home, so I can do whatever I want. Typically running them with borderless frame with a silver highlight so it's super obvious they are proxies. Friends like them with gold borders, same thing there.
Considering how wild the treatments, alternate frames, and whatever nonsense wizards craps out of its secret lairs, there probably needs to be even more indicators that something is a proxy. I.E. alternate backs, and/o something that explicitly says proxy. Not just having weird borders.
Years ago I made a choice to remove all foreign language and textless cards out of my decks, and when I did proxy (which I tended to do less for separate reasons) I made sure the full text was legibly written out. I have a really good knowledge of cards (or at least used to until they started dropping an extra 1,000 cards each year) but I often played with people who were less enfranchised and would often lend them my decks. I felt making sure all the cards were easy to read was just a common curtesy in environments with less enfranchised players. However, with more and more out-there secret lairs I wonder, what is the point.
That Brash Taunter you showed was especially bad. An actual textless card you will just look up, but the Taunter starts with all the correct words, and then just stops and leaves off a full ability. I could see someone playing it (or against it), thinking they know what it does, and not know it has entire extra ability.
I really wish I could get cards the quality of a counterfeit that just have a watermark behind the text that makes it clear it's a proxy. Because the look and feel is what I want in a "good" proxy.
Nah, counterfeits are fine as long as you're not trying to sell them.
As for your "not good for players" crap, yeah... right. As a player, I often find myself saying "I wish I had less access to the cards I want to play", "I wish I had to take time between games desleaving my decks to put my copy of the good cards in", or even "oh boy, I'm so glad my friends deck is 20% basic lands with card names written on it, that makes the game so much quicker and easier".
The purpose of a tournament is to find out who the best player is right? I’m not sure why a proxy would change any of that. The cards are collectibles and the skill of winning a game of magic has nothing to do with your ability to buy a card. I never understood why tournaments cared.
Yes the color of the kislux is beautiful and it is a great decision, maybe one day they will add feet and straps. It would be nice to have a bigger bag during the colder months when we have to store gloves, beanies, scarves, etc…
The man enters the ring fighting against Mayweather, making the fight of his life, after 10 hard rounds, he wins the fight. When the judge lifts his hand, somebody cries: Hey! Those are not original gloves! Whata cheater!
I hate official cards that are unreadable like the Amonket special cards. Even a sleeved foil is difficult to read.
I print proxies on cheap paper and cheap printer at home, put them in the sleeve with a basic and that's it. You can easily tell it's a proxy, especially because I cut it like a 7-year child who never held scissors in their hands before. You would really have to be drunk not to recognize this, lol. That said, I don't proxy much. My commander decks are all proxy free ATM. Usually I proxy when I ordered the card and it's stuck somewhere for weeks (hello cardmarket), or when I want to try a new deck before buying it(so literally playtest cards). But now I'm thinking of doing anime art only deck to troll my friend, and I'll just proxy the stuff. No way I can afford those prices for a joke...
I just write a “P” next to the set symbol or as the set symbol on my counterfeits.
I think magic players need to stop taking Hasbro's nonsense as a whole. The DnD community singlehandedly took 5e out back and put it down, forcing wotc to reverse their shitty decisions in an effort to conserve the playerbase. No MSRPs and clear pro scalper policies hurt people who just want to support a game they love.
I will admit it's frustrating sometimes when the guy who brings a new deck every month with 100% proxies of everything from original duals to infinite combos to vaults and $500 cards. But I also think despite them bringing imaginary decks every month is better than them being priced out of commander Sundays because they have kids and go to school. And I can always sit at a different table when that happens.
I've bought "counterfeits" before to use as proxies for expensive cards I already own to use in different decks. The one thing I do is write "fake" on the back of each card with permanent marker and use opaque sleeves this way I can use good looking cards that won't confuse anyone as to what it is and marked the cards as to not be accused of anything at a lgs