Poly or Rubber Bushings? (FM Live)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ม.ค. 2020
- Poly or Rubber bushings? Which is best for your car? Today on Facebook Live, Mike talks us through the differences and Pros vs Cons of each and shows us samples of the most common applications.
See our website for our full selection of rubber and poly bushings:
www.flyinmiata.com/catalogsea...
Original live video recorded 1-16-20. Join us every Thursday at 2:00 PM Mountain Time for more live content! This is a quick overview video to inform our customers, and is not intended to be a guide or installation tutorial of any kind.
Flyin' Miata is the world leader in Miata performance. We offer a wide range of parts for all years of the Mazda MX-5 Miata.
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Thank you. As I suspected. If you drive a standard street car, can't afford the exorbitant prices associated with, for example, Superpro bushes, like your ride comfortable and as noise free as possible you are better off with rubber. Cheers.
I tried to like poly bushings for the control arms. I really did try. And I went through a couple of sets, with and without graphite added to the compound, and with and without Zerk fittings installed for ease of lubrication. The handling is nice with poly. The turn-in is better. The chassis roll is less. They handle 'better'. Mazda stock bushings are too soft for most of us. But the burden of lubrication is constant with poly bushings. Lubrication every 6000 miles is not too often if you want poly bushings to run without squeaking. On top of that they wear out. Even if they are frequently lubed, poly suspension bushings wear out. This depends on often you lube and how you drive, but I have never had a poly bushing go more than 40,000 miles. Rubber flexes, but poly wears directly on a steel part, and the poly simply wears away. FM is the US dealer for the German "IL" sport type, rubber bushings. IL rubber bushings are a nice compromise between Mazda stock control arm bushings and Mazda Competition Bushings. Mazda comp bushings are too hard for the street. But IL 'sport' bushings are a lot harder than stock, but can be used on a daily driver without undue NVH. The IL rubber bushings and the poly bushing are similar in NVH. Flyin' Miata sells IL sport bushings that are just right for most of us. And they are far easier to install than Mazda competition bushings. You pull them into position with some heavy bolts and a few tubular spacers and an impact wrench. The job can be done in an afternoon. If you are regularly on the track, your budget is tight, well okay, you might use poly-bushings, but they are a lot of work.
This is so helpful - thanks!
Why am I looking at this , I don’t even have a car
😃😂💔💯
Knowledge is power
Better to be prepared
Rubber Luvver!
These tech talks are so useful! Thanks for your time and effort!
I thought I should add this. When looking for energy suspension poly bushings... the black versions of their bushings are graphite impregnated and help eliminate squeak. They'll have a G on the end of their product number.
My experience with poly shifter bushings on my Integra, which has a very low load compared to suspension, had the polyurethane deteriorating and crumbling in just a few years. I put new OEM rubber back in which is far superior in terms of longevity. I’ve also seen a number of Honda’s used on track with poly suspension bushings that had the poly split or crack, which allowed a huge amount of play in the interior metal sleeve. So to me the only really viable bushing choices are hardened rubber for a street car, or spherical for a track car. I see no real benefit to polyurethane bushings.
@@8mensenvanens8 The shifter bushings don't use grease, because they don't spin or having bolts spinning inside them. One bushing simply attaches the shifter torque arm to the gearbox, and the other attaches the torque arm to the chassis. The torque arm doesn't really move at all. And yet the polyurethane turned to dust after only 3-4 years. Other people have used poly bushings on the suspension arms and had them wear out even faster.
Absolutely agree. I’ve experienced the same in polyurethane shifter bushings and rear differential mount bushings. They do eventually deform and develop play. They do not last forever and do not appear to be longer-lasting than rubber in some uses.
Agree poly is a trash material for mounts or bushings
I also have to agree, I really regret using polyurethane, rose joints was also unsatisfactory to me, I'm on a Nissan platform and would use Nismo hardened bushings.
Thanks for the info,i think i will stay with the OEM rubber type.take care👍👍👍👍🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Very good information ! Thanks
Thanks, Mike!
I used to run the poly bushings on leaf spring suspensions on cj5s and k5 blazers. The poly wore out real fast, went back to rubber.
Leaf springs put a very different load on bushings, there's a lot of twisting load as the bushing tries to keep that spring straight - especially if you're pushing the articulation offroad.
very good explanation ,my regards frome Argentina..
I went with poly out of necessity. I own an SVX and much of the OEM and aftermarket OE style replacement parts don't exist. Struts and bearing plates were shot and NLA. So, coilovers were my only option and of which are only available from two companies. Suspension components were no exception. I ended up with Strongflex from Poland. There is another U.S. company debating R&D and hopefully will consider production. Things like sway bar links are also one-offs, and brake upgrades have also been in the works by way of WRX or STi mods. The problem is front WRX calipers must be split then spaced and fitted with 350z hardware, then paired with Tribeca rotors. The spacers were a limited run by one individual. Currently another person has taken to task their reproduction.
It kinda sucks we have to sacrifice ride quality with our cars, but at least these rare cars get a second chance. At least they end up as sports cars as god intended, rather than the luxury Grand tourers they were marketed as.
Hello and mahalo for great info. I have a classic 1987 VW Scirocco 16V. I'm vacillating on whether or not I want to stiffen the control arms and by how much. One thing is that I'm now 60 years old and not into jarring my body in the car like I was in my youth. I've been turning the Scirocco into a bit of a GT car. The aftermarket Neuspeed front and rear sway bars along with K-bar and torsion bars do a great job of keep the body stiffer and not rolling in the curves so she drives on rails! With this set up, I am thinking about leaving the rubber bushings in the control arms. I'm not sure if it's worth changing out both front and rear or having both rubber and poly thinking that poly would go on the front part of the control arm? I'm thinking that these days, I've achieved eliminating body roll and there may be no point in stiffening the ride further with poly bushings.... just keep the rubber bushings in for that little bit of vibration dampening and let the sway/torsion bars and springs do the rest of the work. That car also already has a good feel coming through the steering wheel.
The suspension also currently has Ground Control progressive springs so the stance is good and the spring rate seems good. I am not the original owner so I'm still figuring out what was done. I believe the front struts are worn as it can bottom out at times. Other than that, it feels ok. I do have an old Ground Control coil over set up in my shop that was in a previous Scirocco. The springs are too stiff and setup for track/hill climbing rallies. The front have Koni adjustables which need a rebuild and rear are Bilstein gas. I'm not sure if the front bottoms out or because the springs are so stiff that it sounds and feels like it's bottoming out. Once I do the math to figure out the proper length of coil over spring, I'll replace with a much lighter spring rate that is slightly over what OEM was. Oh, the curb weight is about 2100lbs.
If anything, I'll use the poly on the rear sway bar mount.
This info should give you an overview of what I have and wanting to achieve. I appreciate your time and thoughts. I have a feeling you may be verifying my thoughts but it's nice to have your professional opinion. Mahalo!
footnote. I do have all poly on the front end of my 96' Ford Explorer and that really helps with the sway of that car and a better positive feel and ride. LOL.
I was looking at the Mazda competition engine mounts and trans bushings that is sold on the FM site. Would you guys say its a good compromise between the poly and rubber bushings?
Should we remove the old bushing shield when installing poly? my control arm looks thin around the bushing mount. I'm worried it would compromise without it.
Ok 5mins into video when you ststed that disadvantage of polyurethane bushings will need greasing after a while or will crack,so will stick to my OEM rubber ones.thank you friend for the video👍👍👍👍🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
yep.. significant buyers remorse here.with urethane bushes .extra road noise and harshness, esp on rough cut road surface. for no benefit.
Should have viewed these vids before i spent thousands on suspension upgrade.
I have a 2013 Subaru BRZ andand I want to tighten up the the rear end a little bit could I just add polyurethane bushings to my sway bar
powerflex for frontal coilovers in golf mk4 gti yes or no? any experiencie?
Spherical bearings and Delrin for the win!
drill/tap the outside shell of your ball joint bushing, drill to center of bushing, add a grease fitting
I've got some polyurethane inserts for the rear differential bushings of my NB, haven't installed them yet. I'm definitely not interested in the kind of nvh you get with solid mounts. Hoping these will be in between OEM and solid poly. Do you guys have experience with them?
We've tried them. It's a small difference, but with very few drawbacks.
Handling and HVH are not changed much with poly-bushings on the differential. I have used both, and the stock rubber is just fine for stock horse power. If you are boosted you might want to put in something stronger, like the MazdaSpeed competition bushing, or a poly-bushing. On the drive line the big difference is in front, with the engine mounts. Here, I personally prefer Mazda rubber competition bushings for a car that is driven almost exclusively in the canyons. The vibration is greatly increased, but the gear box stays steady. You will find 3rd gear a lot more reliably. Also the motor becomes a load path between the two 'horns' of the front subframe, which are the mounting points for the upper front control arms. Going to a comp motor mount stiffens the whole front subframe laterally. And they almost never break. The car will quiver a bit at stop lights. The beams of your head lights will dance around a little on the back of the car stopped in front of you at a light. This is the down side. If that level of vibration doesn't bother you there are several significant benefits.
Question Please- i have a mix of poly & rubber bushings on my cars (71 chevy, 99 miata, & 98 firebird), & i know ur not supposed to use regular ol grease (petroleum based) on poly bushings, but is there any harm in using the grease meant specifically for poly bushings (ie; prothane super grease) on a rubber bushing? thanx!
Trick question. Rubber bushings shouldn't be greased. They work differently than poly and should be effectively bonded to the control arm.
@@FlyinMiataVideo ...well i just learned something new... i appreciate ur response & sharing that knowledge... thanx!
Hello,
I have a question, if we use for sample, the same shore of poly than OEM rubber (like 65 Shore for sample) is that not possible to have the same result as rubber and have the poly bonded to the sleeve like the rubber ? (i mean pouring the poly with the sleeve in place like for the rubber) so the poly can twist like the rubber and don't rotate on the sleeve or on the ring, so will not need grease and get the squeaking.
I ask this question for good reason, i have to change my rear control arm (upper an lower) on my Cadillac Seville STS 1993, and it is just impossible to find this bushing (was never made) and the complete control arm just don't exist anymore, so idea was to duplicate the original bushing but make it with poly.
Thanks
I believe that's how Polybush does it in the UK. You'd have to have just the right kind of poly, but the theory is sound.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Ok, thanks for reply, i just found the company Siberian Bushing, and as i see that how they do it, so will make a try for my bushing with a 60-65 Shore A and i have special primer to get the PU strongly bonded to the metal.
Thanks again
I NEED HELP So I have a 2011 buick lacroses cxs model the rubber on the yoke/fork that goes to the strut to the spindle can I use a metal bushing instead of rubber bushing it makes my alignment go bad it's only been 5 months seen I did my front end I got everything new for my suspension tie rods inner and outer rotors lower control arm my struts ever thing for the front end and the same part is messing up again I need help fixing it I'm not trying to get a new yoke it cost 300 for one and I need both side cus of one dumb rubber bushing
We only specialize in Mazda Miatas and unfortunately don't have any experience or specific information for your Buick. Sorry we can't be more help!
I've read a ton and still have no definitive answer.. does poly squeak more than rubber.. meaning if I have body mounts of rubber am I better off NOT switching to poly because of the aforementioned squeak? I don't know as I've not done anything yet to my truck as far as the rebuild yet.. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row so to speak...
Rubber suspension bushings should never squeak as there's no relative movement involved. Poly relies on that movement.
Body mounts on a truck, you shouldn't be squeaking regardless.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Yes, BUT with poly don't you have to grease them at regular intervals to avoid squeak where as rubber requires no such long term maintenance.
hi,
here in belgium are poly bushings ilegal. Are there stiffer/ harder rubber bushings for the mx5 nb ?
If you're also following German TUV rules, then they're actually exempt from TUV requirements, we can send you a legal letter that you can give to your vehicle's tester.
Poly or Rubber bushings which one is perfect for Honda civic trailing arms
It really depends on what you re using the car for. As Mike says in the video, Poly will transfer more vibration and noise. We usually recommend rubber bushings for the suspension on all street cars.
To clarify, would it be harder or less comfortable using Poly bushing?
Rubber absorb vibration, if using Poly, would the metal parts become less durable? Bolt, holes, joints, etc.? THANKS
Different. When working properly, they're more like a bearing. There's no indication that the rest of the car would suffer.
Only use silicone based grease silicone is inert it won't damage the polly. I noticed you say grease alot just make sure to know petroleum based grease will eat through polly or rubber.
Many years ago a friend had an old small window VW bug, which he modified and put in solid steel motor mounts. At college he had a routine hearing test and the nurse said Are you a drummer in a rock band? No, why? You're deaf! he probably gained a negligible benefit, but lived his whole life hearing impaired. Two sides to every coin...
Holy shit kermit
How much can a rubber control arm bushing twist as the tire goes up and down?
With rubber control arm bushings, the center of the bushing is locked in place and any suspension travel twists the bushing. This is why indexing the bushings correctly is important whenever new bushings are installed, or the ride height of the vehicle is changed. We've never measured how much the control arm bushings twist, though.
We're the original manufacturers of Polybushes (Hence the name) We manufacture our bushes to act like the rubber bushes, eg. the material moves, the tube doesn't. So they DON'T require lubrication - Then we have different grades of Polyurethane to suit how you drive, so you can really dial in what you like, be that performance or a dynamic drive.
We sponsor many MX5 (MIATA) race series' and we actually own mx5's (Turbo MK1 Japanese Import) so really have put as much development work in as possible, so the purchasers really get the best of both rubber and Polyurethane worlds. AND we've solved the MK4 (ND) rear hub bush failure problem, Mazda UK actually buy direct from us.
Thanks for watching and your input!
Thanks for chiming in. We usually try to mention Polybushes specifically in videos like these because they do act differently than the majority of polyurethane bushings on the market. Mike may have missed that this time, we apologize.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Not a worry! The videos you do are so crucial to keeping the vehicles we love alive, we just wanted to make sure people were aware that options are available to them.
Is it best to go fully poly on a Toyota Corolla
If you plan to do mostly street driving, rubber bushings will be your friend.
Real answer.... neither. If your bushings aint broke dont change them, installing new bushings is a PAIN
From my personal experience the Honda OEM rubbers lasts 25 to 30 years and more. Many 30 year old Honda's are still on factory bushes. With cars lasting on average only 10-12 years oem Honda rubbers lasting 25-30 and more is enough. Fix it once and you will never fix it again in your driving life.
If you are not concerned with tested durability lasting decades then non OEM is an option.
Also, if you want anything stiffer than rubber then poly is an option.
Poly can be made to the same stiffness as rubber, however you need to know the exact duro of an aftermarket poly vs the duro of the OEM to know exactly how that Poly will behave once fitted (particularly for suspension applications).
Interesting fact - the average of cars on US roads is now over 12 years. Those are vehicles in service, not vehicles going to the scrap heap.
Mazda bushings are not in good shape after 25-30 years.
Comparing a rubber and poly bushing for something like a control arm, where the arm rotates at the bushing mount. For a rubber bushing, the control arm rotation results in a twisting of the rubber, which increases the resistance to rotation, so it adds some ‘spring rate’ to the suspension motion. For a poly bushing, the center metal tube rotates within the poly bushing, and offers no twisting resistance or ‘spring rate’ to the motion of the control arm. How much does this difference affect the operation of the suspension, for good or for bad?
And I guess the rotation of the metal tube within the poly bushing can result in the bushing wearing out by making the hole larger over time, whereas the rubber bushing will eventually dry out and crack. So, longevity-wise, will a properly lubed poly bushing last as long as an OEM rubber bushing?
You've got it figured out. The spring rate from the bushings needs to be taken into account when selecting actual spring rates - for all else to be equal, you need to run a little more spring to get the same behavior. But it's interestingly also a negative spring rate, pulling the wheel up when it's in droop and then it's almost assisting the sway bar. It's an interesting interaction, but it's hard to say if you'd be able to identify it.
The biggest problem with longevity of poly bushings is keeping them lubricated. Rubber bushings can last for 100k miles on a Miata without maintenance. The lifespan of poly will depend on the maintenance and the environment, but it's also quite long. Total lifespan is long enough in both cases that it's unlikely to be a significant factor.
Hi, my bushings burst quite frequently because the roads are pretty bad where I live. Would poly bushings last longer if I used them instead of rubber? I know you mentioned about rubber is best for street cars but my focus is on durability...I am referring to the bushings for the lower control arm (both front and rear bushings). I drive a Honda Fit Aria 2009 (4wd)...
Sorry, we don't know enough about the details of that specific application to comment.
Generally poly doesn’t last as long
I have Energy Suspension poly A-arm bushings in my '90. After less than 16,000 miles, they are so worn that the alignment cams do nothing useful.
Were they well lubed throughout those miles? I'm sure a dry bushing is gonna wear a bit faster. I've had to replace some brands more often than others but it's a race car so, it does get abused.
The poly one has only one open slot while rubber has two, that's makes poly one even stiff, poor design? thx for good video!
Check out our newer video highlighting the Super-Pro poly bushings. We're a fan!
th-cam.com/video/kiu81nufkxI/w-d-xo.html
Do you have a good automatic transmission for a1992 mazda maita or can it be replaced with a 5 or 6 speed manual and how hard is it to change I am sick of cursing this car mazda should have made a automatic they are no good
Sorry, we do not sell transmissions of any kind. It is possible to convert an automatic car to a manual, but it involves sourcing and replacing a lot more parts than just the transmission. Feel free to email our customer support team at tech@flyinmiata.com. They should be able to give you more information about that swap.
If you want to be a fast faster fastest driver OEM will do , if you want to be ricer or have a fast faster car ... bushing or poly is not for you rather bearing(spherical) ...
The real fastest don't care much about tune , modify , repair ... all the most they want to do is drive and feel everything and every part and remember everything while trial and error ... minimising the mistake while constantly strengthen the technics and skills ...
They would drive in a way that is fast(way faster than ricer/average so called pro racer yet slow to them) yet preserve every parts in mint condition after 1 run or 2-3 laps and let the thing cool down ... their pad will be optimum , clutch , differential(open or torsen will do ... don't need clutch type) all will be in much better condition and even their tires .
Driving fast doesn't requires totally on race car level standard but rather self improving the balance , weight shifting , preserving parts as optimum as possible while using it as gentle yet as little as possible . In a single lap/50laps Colin McRae or Ayrton Senna may be faster if they commit the very least mistake and optimum condition ...
However if endurance Race especially endurance one after another daily ...
Jim Clark or Sébastien Loeb will be the winner . Jim Clark excellence in ultra fast , gentle weight shifting , overly sensitive feel for surrounding,road condition,parts,g-force and Sébastien Loeb physical ability that suppress most world class racer by 2-5x and his high concentration level which resulted in extremely relax yet careful , precise driving all those factors are super rare even among best of world class racer ... and is why their race car/kart will always return to pit even after race/practise in very optimum condition . They are not particular about the set-up or overly reliability of their car/kart but their body and mind would sense the weaknesses and cons of it and adapt to win the race/event . Art of coping .
Stay away from moog bushings they disintegrate. I just installed new moog strut bushings and after tightening the bolt the whole bushing collapsed into pieces. I took off the bolt and the bushing also crumbled in my hands as well. The box says made in India. I looked into it and apparently at some point manufacturing was shifted to Asia. The bushings are off-white in color and seemed that the outer layer was different than the inner which seemed like cake stuff. I will never trust that brand again.
Crap poly bushes. Super Pro Australia make the best in the world
We're actually big fans of SuperPro. We offer a full selection of their bushings for the Miata. Check out this newer video talking about how much we like them!
th-cam.com/video/kiu81nufkxI/w-d-xo.html