again, so helpful Mike. such a good point about being so used to immediately question information that you actually can’t access it, I can really recognize this. real knowledge is simple. 🙏🏻
Hi Mike, Absolutely love your videos and your hoodie selection. I'm curious if you've ever thought of doing a video on how ICBT can apply to real event OCD. As a longtime sufferer of OCD through many themes, I can totally see how ICBT works for themes that trick you to go beyond your senses, but I can't grasp how it relates to morality / real event obsessions. I'm going to give a hypothetical example inspired by your hoodie choice. Imagine you are obsessing about the fact that 10 years ago you were such a militant vegan that you got into multiple fights over it. Maybe you have since learned that fighting people is immature and morally wrong, and you become gripped with obsessing about all those times you punched someone in the face. Your obsession isn't about some unreasonable theory (like how you hypothetically paralyzed all these people and didn't know it) but just that you did actually get into fights, which you now see as morally wrong. You ruminate about how bad of a person you are, how your adult friends wouldn't accept you because they've talked about being repulsed by violence. Maybe you're successful and worry about how this could impact your job if they found out. Maybe you're always googling about the morality of violence as a way to feel like you're not actually that bad of a person. How would ICBT deal with that? It strikes me that the theory focuses on obsessions that have much less grounding in reality (and I don't say that to disparage them, I've suffered them myself.) ACT and ERP both seem to deal with these situations more directly, by accepting the guilt and learning to live with it, and also training yourself to not spiral / ruminate when you are hit with an intrusive thought about your past actions. I'm curious how ICBT would deal with this, and would LOVE a video on it. I feel like I am probably missing part of the ICBT equation. But I know there are other Real Event OCD sufferers out there! (And I promise I've never fought someone over veganism, even if I love Earth Crisis!)
I will offer 2 options depending on the underlying issue: 1) Toxic guilt: This is when someone has become so aversive to guilt that they try to never feel it. They have not learned to tolerate it as a normal and functional human emotion and have it as their goal to always directly eliminate the feeling as soon as it shows up. In this case, we would definitely be looking at accepting one's imperfection and that one has done wrong in the past and that they should feel guilty for those "moments" of imperfection but not feel guilty "as a person" permanently. By learning to accept and tolerate guilty feelings we would be moving towards a space where one recognizes that guilt is a transitory emotion when accepted, whereas it becomes a permanent state when avoided. 2) Inferential confusion (i.e. OCD): If someone is struggling with the reasoning errors that come with OCD, one is inappropriately applying out-of-context past experiences to the present moment. One has lost trust in the person they are in the present and doesn't trust the available information they can gather about themselves in the present such as one's inner intentions and motivations. With ICBT we're looking to reconnect with the "inner senses" that tell us we are a good person who intends to do good and who will try their best to do good now and in the future. We recognize the "true self" is the person who is upset/appalled by the past behavior. This response to past behavior is more evidence of present-moment morality. This is really important information to be collected and trusted. In the case of OCD, there is reasoning leading one to doubt one's present moment goodness, and one of the arguments used to reject information in the present is past behaviors that are not relevant to the present. So, we would want to differentiate between 1 and 2, and we may even find that both are going on, in which case we would probably want to apply a mix of therapies to address both issues. I hope that helps. Basically, you no longer wish to beat up meat eaters and purify the bane that society drowns in, and have a more adult, less 16-year-old, idea for how to go about things. You have evolved as a person and can still jam out to Firestorm on occasion. Lol. Thanks for the awesome question.
Very helpful! The instant questioning is tough to break. This seems a bit more approachable than some of the intensity I feel with ERP, while I do know they both have value. Thanks for sharing!
Even if I say the most basic info I should feel 100% confident about with how I felt before my obsession, I still feel this heavy sense of doubt in my stomach so then I don’t feel “convinced” about what I know. I then get fustrated and tell myself that isn’t something you should be doubting it’s common sense . That sensation of lying stays present even with the most obvious questions 😢 maybe I should ignore it???? Even things I am sure about unrelated to my obsession I can interject that feeling if I look for it… or check for it. It’s like if I don’t want to feel something , I feel that exact feeling. The second I check if I feel doubt I instantly feel it.
Hi Juliannamaria, You're thinking about a lot of things in a new way and will be in a great place to start ICBT with a therapist (if you can manage to find one!). Keep in mind that it's a process, and the goal in therapy is to slow down one's thinking and become more cognizant of the factors that lead to choosing the bubble over reality. You then work on reviewing whether those reasons for choosing the bubble make sense and are in line with your actual reason and logic. But again it's a process. As you wait for the right therapy, definitely check out the resources available on icbt.online/. There are downloads for the modules and videos as well. Also, check out the new ICBT workbook (available on Amazon), Resolving OCD by Frederick Aardema. We're slowly but surely seeing an increase in the resources available for this treatment.
I love how you talk so quietly and slowly :) its easy for my autistic brain to digest. I've only just discovered you right now but so far you're helping 🫂🫂
Thank you. I have been suffering to the point of honestly no return for two years. I had a thought “what if I was raped?” After having sex with my bf, and it’s taken over my life for 2 years. ERP and meds aren’t working. What would you suggest as coping skills for I CBT? Thank you.
I don't think that ICBT would necessarily offer coping skills. The issue is that an OCD obsession is a deep-rooted problem that really requires time and reflection to begin to weaken. I definitely recommend finding an ICBT therapist and deep diving with someone working directly with you weekly. If you're interested, here is a list of providers: icbt.online/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/INTERNATIONAL-REFERENCE-LIST-MENTAL-HEALTH-PROFESSIONALS-FOR-OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE-DISORDER-2024-12-19.pdf
What you'll find with ICBT is you will be working on noticing the behavior of searching, checking, and testing one's memory is a trap that only leads to more and more doubt. And it leads to the creation and imagining of "possible" memories that can then never be disproven by more searching. One thing we may work on is identifying the simple answers that are right on the surface. For example, we look at how the answer to a question like "what did you eat for breakfast this morning?" is answered simply and quickly. That's what a real memory feels like. We then compare this to the tortured thought process that is occurring in the area of the obsession that involves a blurring between the imagination and reality, and an over-reliance on what's "possible." I hope that gives a good initial impression of the work.
again, so helpful Mike. such a good point about being so used to immediately question information that you actually can’t access it, I can really recognize this. real knowledge is simple. 🙏🏻
Thanks! That's such a great realization to be making!
Hi Mike,
Absolutely love your videos and your hoodie selection. I'm curious if you've ever thought of doing a video on how ICBT can apply to real event OCD. As a longtime sufferer of OCD through many themes, I can totally see how ICBT works for themes that trick you to go beyond your senses, but I can't grasp how it relates to morality / real event obsessions. I'm going to give a hypothetical example inspired by your hoodie choice. Imagine you are obsessing about the fact that 10 years ago you were such a militant vegan that you got into multiple fights over it. Maybe you have since learned that fighting people is immature and morally wrong, and you become gripped with obsessing about all those times you punched someone in the face. Your obsession isn't about some unreasonable theory (like how you hypothetically paralyzed all these people and didn't know it) but just that you did actually get into fights, which you now see as morally wrong. You ruminate about how bad of a person you are, how your adult friends wouldn't accept you because they've talked about being repulsed by violence. Maybe you're successful and worry about how this could impact your job if they found out. Maybe you're always googling about the morality of violence as a way to feel like you're not actually that bad of a person. How would ICBT deal with that? It strikes me that the theory focuses on obsessions that have much less grounding in reality (and I don't say that to disparage them, I've suffered them myself.) ACT and ERP both seem to deal with these situations more directly, by accepting the guilt and learning to live with it, and also training yourself to not spiral / ruminate when you are hit with an intrusive thought about your past actions. I'm curious how ICBT would deal with this, and would LOVE a video on it. I feel like I am probably missing part of the ICBT equation. But I know there are other Real Event OCD sufferers out there! (And I promise I've never fought someone over veganism, even if I love Earth Crisis!)
I will offer 2 options depending on the underlying issue: 1) Toxic guilt: This is when someone has become so aversive to guilt that they try to never feel it. They have not learned to tolerate it as a normal and functional human emotion and have it as their goal to always directly eliminate the feeling as soon as it shows up. In this case, we would definitely be looking at accepting one's imperfection and that one has done wrong in the past and that they should feel guilty for those "moments" of imperfection but not feel guilty "as a person" permanently. By learning to accept and tolerate guilty feelings we would be moving towards a space where one recognizes that guilt is a transitory emotion when accepted, whereas it becomes a permanent state when avoided. 2) Inferential confusion (i.e. OCD): If someone is struggling with the reasoning errors that come with OCD, one is inappropriately applying out-of-context past experiences to the present moment. One has lost trust in the person they are in the present and doesn't trust the available information they can gather about themselves in the present such as one's inner intentions and motivations. With ICBT we're looking to reconnect with the "inner senses" that tell us we are a good person who intends to do good and who will try their best to do good now and in the future. We recognize the "true self" is the person who is upset/appalled by the past behavior. This response to past behavior is more evidence of present-moment morality. This is really important information to be collected and trusted. In the case of OCD, there is reasoning leading one to doubt one's present moment goodness, and one of the arguments used to reject information in the present is past behaviors that are not relevant to the present. So, we would want to differentiate between 1 and 2, and we may even find that both are going on, in which case we would probably want to apply a mix of therapies to address both issues. I hope that helps. Basically, you no longer wish to beat up meat eaters and purify the bane that society drowns in, and have a more adult, less 16-year-old, idea for how to go about things. You have evolved as a person and can still jam out to Firestorm on occasion. Lol. Thanks for the awesome question.
Very helpful! The instant questioning is tough to break. This seems a bit more approachable than some of the intensity I feel with ERP, while I do know they both have value. Thanks for sharing!
Glad the video was helpful. This treatment approach has a lot of parts to it, so I'm happy these little nuggets are still useful.
For me personally this makes more sense than ERP. Thank you for these videos.
Even if I say the most basic info I should feel 100% confident about with how I felt before my obsession, I still feel this heavy sense of doubt in my stomach so then I don’t feel “convinced” about what I know. I then get fustrated and tell myself that isn’t something you should be doubting it’s common sense . That sensation of lying stays present even with the most obvious questions 😢 maybe I should ignore it???? Even things I am sure about unrelated to my obsession I can interject that feeling if I look for it… or check for it. It’s like if I don’t want to feel something , I feel that exact feeling. The second I check if I feel doubt I instantly feel it.
Hi Juliannamaria, You're thinking about a lot of things in a new way and will be in a great place to start ICBT with a therapist (if you can manage to find one!). Keep in mind that it's a process, and the goal in therapy is to slow down one's thinking and become more cognizant of the factors that lead to choosing the bubble over reality. You then work on reviewing whether those reasons for choosing the bubble make sense and are in line with your actual reason and logic. But again it's a process. As you wait for the right therapy, definitely check out the resources available on icbt.online/. There are downloads for the modules and videos as well. Also, check out the new ICBT workbook (available on Amazon), Resolving OCD by Frederick Aardema. We're slowly but surely seeing an increase in the resources available for this treatment.
I love how you talk so quietly and slowly :) its easy for my autistic brain to digest. I've only just discovered you right now but so far you're helping 🫂🫂
Thanks for letting me know. I'm happy the presentation has been working for you!
Thank you. I have been suffering to the point of honestly no return for two years. I had a thought “what if I was raped?” After having sex with my bf, and it’s taken over my life for 2 years. ERP and meds aren’t working. What would you suggest as coping skills for I CBT? Thank you.
I don't think that ICBT would necessarily offer coping skills. The issue is that an OCD obsession is a deep-rooted problem that really requires time and reflection to begin to weaken. I definitely recommend finding an ICBT therapist and deep diving with someone working directly with you weekly. If you're interested, here is a list of providers: icbt.online/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/INTERNATIONAL-REFERENCE-LIST-MENTAL-HEALTH-PROFESSIONALS-FOR-OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE-DISORDER-2024-12-19.pdf
What you'll find with ICBT is you will be working on noticing the behavior of searching, checking, and testing one's memory is a trap that only leads to more and more doubt. And it leads to the creation and imagining of "possible" memories that can then never be disproven by more searching. One thing we may work on is identifying the simple answers that are right on the surface. For example, we look at how the answer to a question like "what did you eat for breakfast this morning?" is answered simply and quickly. That's what a real memory feels like. We then compare this to the tortured thought process that is occurring in the area of the obsession that involves a blurring between the imagination and reality, and an over-reliance on what's "possible." I hope that gives a good initial impression of the work.