Tips & Tricks - Proper Cooling Fan Selection - Stop Using Capacitors & Noctua Fans!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ค. 2024
- Check out our fan selection here: www.th3dstudio.com/product-ca...
🎥 We create videos and live streams for our community. Support us by shopping at TH3D Shop ➡️ www.th3dstudio.com/ . Your support helps fund our content without any extra cost to you!
❓ Need printer parts or upgrades? Contact us at ContactUs.TH3DStudio.com. Join our channel for exclusive perks: / @th3dstudio .
📧 Stay notified of our uploads and live streams: www.th3dstudio.com/youtube-no...
📰 Subscribe to our mailing list for updates on products, firmware, and deals: www.th3dstudio.com/email-sign...
🌎 Explore our communities and resources:
Help Center: support.th3dstudio.com
Discord: discord.th3dstudio.com
Facebook: / th3dstudio
Odysee: odysee.com/$/invite/@TH3DStud...
Rumble: rumble.com/c/th3dstudio
TH-cam: / th3dstudio
TikTok: / th3dstudio
🎵 Music by From Zero to Zed: fromzerotozed.bandcamp.com/
(Used with Permission) - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Swiss Stage DAY 1 // G2 vs T1 | FPX vs FUT](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Vth7XbbVcoQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Even prusa had problems with the Noctua fans.
Did not know that. Thanks for letting us know!
They still use them though. But indeed they have more cooling fins. I use a Microswiss which should have less issues with heatcreap as well.
Yes, but they had to modify the extruder assembly ( I believe to b7) to get more airflow out of it. Also, some forum members are swapping them for Sanyo, Sunon. Personally, I had problems with all of my MK3s in long prints. So much so that I don't use them for long prints anymore. At least, not until I upgrade my extruder assembly to the latest V3 designs.
Wow. I would be really disappointed if that happened. Especially on a $800+ kit machine....
TH3D Studio You should check this link about issue 602 with PrusaMk3. It describes the issue with Noctua Fan as one of the issues. th-cam.com/video/7x-3ruD9Kl0/w-d-xo.html
So I checked out the 40mm fan with 10mm thickness you sell.
Airflow: 0.151m³/min (which is: 9.06m³/h), static pressure: 0.090 in H₂O (i assume inch??, which is: 2.286mm in H₂O), speed 5000 RPM, noise: 20dB(A)
Now let's compare those values to the Noctua 40mm fans:
10mm thickness: Airflow: 8.9 m³/h, static pressure: 1.95 mm H₂O, speed 5000 RPM, noise: 19.6dB(A)
20mm thickness: Airflow: 9.4 m³/h, static pressure: 2.26 mm H₂O, speed 5000 RPM, noise: 14,9dB(A)
So, your 10mm fan is very close to the Noctua one. The stats of the 20mm Noctua one are better, it's much quieter too and you can mount it to most heatsink fan mounts (except the stock ones) without problems.
Could you please tell me WHY I shouldn't use those? I can see the argument that the specs for the 10mm Noctua are a tad lower. But for the 20mm one? I don't know. Please tell me.
The 20mm would be a better choice if you are hell-bent on using Noctua. But it does not fit in the stock hotend location, only the 10mm fits. Some aftermarket cooling mounts will work with the 20mm one but you are also then adding more weight with a larger fan and that can add more ringing (negligible, but more weight on the hotend = more ringing).
@@TH3DStudio I dont believe the extra weight could be an issue, and two nuts extra and the 20mm fits on Ender 3/5, but yes, never use the lower speed option, run them full speed always on you hotend. But I dont really get this message, dont make it Noctua specific, just mention low Airflow fans, keep it clean.
Because he can´t sell his China Fans for the same price as the noctua´s thats why.
@@davidmertes6308 Noctua fans are made in taiwan and china...
@@TheShaddix Yeah but they are developed from an Austrian company with good QM. I think most people know what is meant with china fan.
This was very helpful, thank you.
I understand your point, but is it the case with the fan for motherboard and power supply too? I have the plan to change the power supply fan at my Ender 3 with a Noctua one.
Thank you for taking the time and posting this about cooling fans
Thanks for this Tim some much needed info more people should know about cooling. That pwm fix was perfect though for my 5015 (not a th3d supplied one but it still made a noise like them) so that was a great little fix for me.
Tim, Thanks for the video. Great information. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing👍😀
Point taken 👍
Thanks for posting. I've seen a lot of the same recommendations, and have been running some of my own experiments that are similar. Can you speak to max ampacity of the CR-10S fan driver? That is, I've noticed some fans cannot be controlled at lower speeds, and my assumption is that they require a higher starting torque from being higher wattage fans. What max output can the Creality printers support?
Great video! This makes me want to run some thermo/heat transfer equations on the CR10 hot end while using varying the CFM.
Thanks for the information very informative
Great video, thanks for posting. I just bought a 40x10mm 12v Noctua fan for use on my CR-10 hot end (Microswiss all metal), but I'm glad I watched this before making the switch. I do a lot of very long multi-day prints.
But you didn't touch on the control box fans (which is where MOST of the noise of the CR-10 comes from). Do you think Noctua fans are ok to use as replacements in the control box? What about Noiseblocker fans - are they any good for use on the CR-10 (either control box or hot end)?
I would err on the side of not "silent" types. Less noise equals less airflow. It's just physics. We did thermal testing on the ones we sell for the case as well. Much quieter than stock but still plenty of flow.
Thanks for providing good, helpful info on fans. Is there any advantage one way or the other on cooling the hotend heatsink with positive or negative pressure? Thanks.
Fantastic video! Thank you! This will stop me from getting a Noctua fan - for the printer, not for the PC :)
If I would ge tthe CR-10 Fan pack from your shop, I think it would fit the Ender 3 Pro right? - If you can ship to EU - I had to replace the board's fan - got a Sunon KDE2404PFV2-11AB - seemed ok.
I dont get the picture in your website though, you dont seem to have a blower style fan on the kit? Is the kit intended for modified print heads? I printed only PLA so far and it seemed to me like quite often I wouldnt need a layer fan - I turn mine on layer 4-5 to avoid the pieces warping up from the plate - but I am an absolute beguinner and surely can be wrong :)
Only have one remark - its not uF on the capacitors. Its a "mu" - μF - stands for MicroFarad - (or Micro Faradayay if you come from Portugal :) ) - Michael Faraday was the dear friend of ours that started applying capacitors arround in the 1920's
Once again, thank you!
Software PWM is not as effective as you're describing. I've used it, and it certainly reduced whining, but it didn't eliminate it. A capacitor did (notably, your shop also still says to wire this across your 5015 fans). The real lesson here is to use an appropriately-sized capacitor. Obviously 1000uf is insanely oversized for that application.
what size would be appropiate? 10µF? I heard ceramic caps are better to get the voltage really smooth, when used in a PSU
@@SchwachsinnProduzent Yeah, 10uF is what I used, until changing boards to one whose PWM played nicer with my 5015 fan.
You got a sub here!
Thank you for a very interesting and informative video.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching!
Take thermometer reading inside the heatbrake. Preheat up to temperature. I would recommend disconnecting the nozzle to prevent leftover filament inside the nozzle from carbonizing. If the temperature is constant over 15 minutes or so (doesn't go up at all. It can go down by a degree but not up) your cooling is good enough. Remember to do this at the highest temperature you're ever going to print at!
Sounds like a great idea for a new video!
Hey Tim, Great info, I did not know that the Noctua fans had a low CFM. I've put a Noctua fan on my CR-10 s400 and it's working fine, but I haven't done any long prints yet. Now I know to watch out for under extrusion issues and what to suspect. Thank you.
They may be using the low noise adapter on noctua when installing and this decreases the fan speed from 4500 to 3700. Causing heat issues
Thank god someone out there in cyberspace has the brains to not half ass a solution and not only provide a correct solution but also speak up about all the bs hacks people cook up. Smh Keep it up Tim & good luck w the move.
Great video as usual. Was kinda pissed at myself for jumping on a couple of Noctuas to quiet down my Ender 3. After reading a lot of the comments I do have to wonder as well about the fact that Noctua also makes 5v versions of the fan as well as the possibility of users having the low noise plug installed without thinking that the tradeoff is lower airflow. Will probably return they are still within the 30 day return period. Glad to know about the #define FAN_FIX as well.
Either way it was still an informative video about checking for other causes of underextrusion and/or stringing rather than just thinking it's just an issue with the settings, tubing, extruder, etc.
Urgent!!!!! Hi all, TH3D Studio Informative video, thank you for the teaching. However, I was halfway through installing the Noctua NF-A4x10 5V when I started to hear your video playing in the background. I have 3 prints, each around 1-3 days long, quality matters to me. On the Noctua box, it says, airflow (m^3/h) = 8.2 > CFM = 4.826338 and the Static pressure (mmH2O) 1.78. My printer is Ender 3 and it has stock hot end, and stock metal case. What do you guys suggest, try running the prints, or change back to stock?
4.8CFM might be OK. Just keep an eye on it. Our 24V 40mm pushes around 6.7cfm and the 12V 40mm is 5.4cfm per the manufacturer specs and neither cause heatcreep.
@@TH3DStudio Thank you TH3D Studio for the reply. Ill be back to leave a feedback.
Thanks for sharing, what you said about the fans makes a lot of sense, and tallies with what I learned about axial fans when I first started overclocking towards the end of the last century, I found that not all fans are the same, as well as the manner in which they are mounted can greatly affect their efficiency, an extra inch gap can make the world of difference (because of the deadspot), in short if the fan is close to a heatsink or another obstruction high static pressure wins over the raw CFM rating because of the air resistance of the fins, fans typically are an unequal balance between the 2, sometimes you will see them tuned for one or the other, although any fan may work for a given situation, its my opinion a proper heatsink fan should be tuned for static pressure rather than use a high CFM blade profile - thanks again and look forward to more of your high quality content
I haven't had an issue with the noctua fan on the hot end. I'd be interested in seeing an actual test of the fans. Airflow felt the same too me when I checked the stock vs the noctua.
I'm getting voltage dips on my stock 24v, so my theory is putting a buck converter in-line, and running a 12v noctua... now I'm wondering if this is a good decision. Idk why people would put a 5v fan though
what fans and blowers would you recommend for a bmg DD w standard flow Dragon Hotend setup on Ender 3 pro? I have the skr mini e3 v2.0 as well but have yet to install anything yet. I am trying to collect everything I need so I'm not having to wait for a simple part I forgot to get. So if you can offer a newbie to 3d printing help it would be greatly appreciated.
This would be a great question to post about in our forum: forum.th3dstudio.com/
Hey I have a question I have an anycubic vyper and I was recently going to buy fan replacements but the pins are way smaller on my blower fans and two are integrated together where they use one wire for 2 fans. If I was to buy the replacements for them could I just solder the existing wires to from my old fans to the new 24v fans that are connected?
Yes thats usually what is required for *most* fan replacements with printers.
Just a quick side question, do you have a link to aftermarket all-metal hot end? I have been looking for an mk8 hotend that will work with a thermistor cartridge.
Edit: the one at 3:08
Thats our Tough Hotend that we carry. Its based on the "V6" design: www.th3dstudio.com/product/tough-v6-hotend/
so what gonna be use ? on th3d site fans industrial im gonna buy 5015 and 40x40 for ender 3 from u
Well, I measured the 5V 40x20 Noctua fan I use on my Ender 3 with the stock hotend and it is perfectly capable of keeping the temperature below 35°C with a 200°C Nozzle for over an hour. I then simulated potential heatcreep after a long print by turning off the fan for a while, heating up the hotend. When turning the fan back on temperature quickly dropped back below 35°C. So yes, the Noctua fan provides sufficient airflow even with the stock hotend and hence is perfectly adequate for this application.
Are you running a stock cooling shroud or an aftermarket one that directs all the air to the heatsink? Most people with the stock shroud have issues as there is no direct airflow to the heatsink.
TH3D Studio yes, everything is stock, except the fan. I measured it using the thermal couple that came with my multimeter, touching the heatsink.
Keep in mind most people use the 10mm. The 20 is advertised to have more static pressure which is the main issue anyway
The TH3D video is about replacing the stock 40x10mm fan with a Noctua fan of the SAME SIZE. You replaced yours with a 40x20mm fan. So next time think a little longer before writing a comment.
I cant really agree on this one. Ive been using a 40x10mm Noctua fan on my ender 3 coldend for over two years. I reassembled the hotend and used a remix of cheps hotend fix. After multiple 24-48h prints and almost daily printing, and after disassembling the hotend multiple times to check on the mod I can say: There is no heatcreep and I didn't experience a single clog in all this time, nor did the filament leak somewhere.
I get what you're saying but I don't think this is true for running Noctua fans at their rated 12V but when you start running them at 10V, 8V or even 5V to safe every last db.
We shouldnt make the noctua fans the sole reason for underextrusion when someone uses them, but we should look at the whole picture: Did the user use the Low noise adapter with the Noctua fan?, Did he assemble his hotend correctly? Came it faulty by default? etc,
It really depends on the noctua selected. They have multiple revisions of the 40x10mm and all of them push significantly less air than the stock fan. It also has to do with your ambient temp. If your room is cooler then it will be less likely to jam. If its warmer then it will be more likely to jam. In our experience and testing the 40x10mm Noctuas (we looked at selling them at one point) did not provide enough airflow to keep the heatsink below 50C on longer prints, which lead to softening of PLA in the tubing.
I feel like i found this channel not quickly enough before spending money on junk, but before installing it at least.....
excellent advice. always the simplest no bs method that is most efficient, especially just buying the freaking correct voltage fan to match your power supply from the beginning and not messing around with stepping down voltages and all that nonsense
While this video is correct - Static pressure is the issue, not CFM. You can have a low CFM fan with a high static pressure that will outperform a high CFM fan with low static pressure.
In the end it boils down to cfm of the whole system.
I use a 20mm thick noctua fan (A4x20) and haven’t ever had issues i think. I inserted my thermistor like filament into my hotend into the heatsink and it read 40 at 200-210 and 42-43 at 240~
I have a good fan duct tho
A4x20 is prefectly adequate for the job - it has 15% more airflow which in practice is around 40-45% more airflow compared to x10 model due to also increased with 27% static pressure :)
@@JulianBG YAY! :3
i would like to know more about the clock on the wall pls? :) NICE VIDS AS ALWAYS THX
Nice dissertation.
Have 2 20x40mm noctua fans on my ender 3 v2 one for hot end cooling and one for parts cooling, installed them with a buck converter and they performed rm far better than those crappy stock fans and 1/3 the noise. Ive done multiple 40+ hour prints no issues.
You're using the 40x20mm, which usually are OK. But those do not fit in the stock housing on the hotend. Only the 40x10mm ones fit. The 40x10mm noctuas do not work correctly for most hotends but people tell others to use them and it causes issues.
Absolutely right Tim, I noticed this some time ago and most of the fans I use now are Sunon from Farnell UK, if I was US I would certainly shop with you, thanks for your vids they are of great interest to me as an engineer, regards, RobUK
I have Noctuas on a buck converter, just made sure to use larger ones that provided same or similar CFM at much lower RPM and for the speed controlled ones, use the onboard ground lines. So far so good even with 10hr+ prints on ender 3 Pro. Definitely not 1:1 on physical size.
The larger 40x20mm Noctuas do move more air than the 40x10mm ones, so that does not surprise me that they are working. The only issue is the 40x20mm don't fit the stock hotend setup and people are recommending the 40x10mm ones for people with stock hotend setups...
Hmmm I have not had any problems with Noiseblocker fans on the hot end (never parts cooling) and I have run 100 hour prints with no problem. I wonder if the NB's put out more CFM than the Noctua's? maybe just enough to avoid the issue of heat soaking (and creep)
good info!!
was it a 4010 noiseblocker? I'm looking to get one myself
@@case_sensitive Normal hot end fan is typically 40x40x10 yes. the NB's are 12v so you will need a regulator to adjust the 24v down to 12v OR just order a 40x40x10 brushless Dual Ball Bearing fan and it will be just as quiet and already 24v !!
Why do you suggest a 5.4 CFM fan for the CR10 and a 6.7 CFM fan for the Ender 3 on your website? I realize that the CR10 is 12V and the Ender 3 is 24V, but don't they use the same hot end and have the same cooling needs? Couldn't I use that 5.4 CFM 12V Sunon with a buck converter and enjoy less noise with adequate cooling?
Around 5CFM is what we found was needed for proper cooling. The fan selection is based on part availability and specs needed for the machines. More CFM won't hurt. Less will.
I had a question. I got two delta 24V fans with red and black wires for dual ducts. Will this work if i connect the red to yellow.. black to blue of the original parts fan in a y config? Some fans come with an third yellow wire. Don't i need a fan with a signal yellow wire so that it can be controlled by fan 0? This is all without adding a capacitor and just a direct connection. Just a bit stumped on the colouring codes used as the original parts fan comes blue and yellow.
Yellow is usually positive and blue is usually negative. Check with a multimeter to verify polarity just to be on the safe side.
@@TH3DStudio yup. Blue is negative. I added two 12V sunon fans because thats all I had.l lying around. Wiring it directly to and through the buck converter did not work and blew the fan0 mosfet. I had to wire the negative fan0 (blue) directly to the fan black. Next the red went to the positive of the buck converter 12V out. The buck was supplied directly to the psu. This configuration in wiring works. Now 24v fans came and going to put those in
Hey, do you know what the amperage rating is for the fan outputs on the Creality board?
We would recommend staying around 0.5A or less. This is true for most boards.
How about capacitors om the psu or mainboard bed heater output? Saw that too somewhere in a tutorial. Never measured my Vdrop during startup.
Don't do that. No reason to.
Great video, though I'm not sure that's how the capacitors work. The idea is that the capacitor charges during the on part of the duty cycle, and discharges during the off part. In this way, it acts like a low-pass filter and smooths out the voltage the fan sees. I'd recommend checking the waveforms with a scope with and without a cap.
With a 1000uf cap the voltage going to the fan was around 19V on a 24V system with a 50% speed set. The caps are not needed either way. Just enable the soft PWM.
@@TH3DStudio Soft PWM is definitely the best solution. But it's worth pointing out that you likely didn't have enough series resistance in your circuit. RC filters work by limiting the rate at which the capacitor recharges. If you don't add a series resistor, filter behavior is determined by the output resistance of your specific fan driver. And fractions of an ohm can make a huge difference when you're near zero.
What is the best fan to buy if you want to have a more silent Ender 3 Pro? Also would you go for the Hero Me mod?
We carry quiet hotend fans and control box fans for the Ender 3 Pro. They're here: www.th3dstudio.com/product/40mm-sealed-bearing-fan-24v-ender-3-tornado/
We looked at carrying the noctuas but they just dont move enough air and don't come in 24V that the Ender 3 Uses.
@@TH3DStudio Do you recommend going for the hero me upgrade or do you use petsfang to mount those? I am concerned that these fans are nice for cooling but loud as hell.
The herome and petsfang are both good coolers. The Petsfang is a little more robust and easier to put together IMO. But they both offer a great improvement over stock cooling.
Now I know that I should not get those noctuas for replacement fans if my stock fans break. Subscribed :)
I hear you say its possible to quieten the fans via the firmware? I run sunon fans and would like to know how to do this?
Also I'm running the th3d firmware but can't seem to save my z babystep offset?
If your control board has a fan output thats not a layer fan you can. As for the offset save, that is only allowed to be saved if you are using an ABL probe, not manual leveling.
@@TH3DStudio So is the solution to simply change the babysteps each and every time you set a print going and remember the offest? Or are you supposed to set the bed absolutely perfectly to the nozzle?
I use a DTI to get the bed absolutely as flat as it will allow me (minus any slight warping) but I generally have to either lift or drop my nozzle by +/-0.1 which can be a pain. I understand I can make the changes to bed with DTI although over a short period of time & ambient temps this can still change slightly and I find I still have to adjust Babysteps - I thought their would be a way to save your offset when needed and be done with it
I couldn't agree more!
I would like to say that Teaching Tech was not using a 5v Noctua 4010 it was a 12v 4010 and i have also done temp testing on the stock hotend and the Swiss micro and the Noctua keeps my heat sync at 32-34c through a 36 hour print with no problems. The fan air flow is plenty powerful enough to cool and keep the system cool.
Thanks for the feedback. We have seen issues with them in the FB groups on those fans though. Maybe they were using the wrong model?
@@TH3DStudio noctua also provides a low noise plug in wire that will lower the rpm even more on there fans I bet people are using this option that are having problems
Man, I miss the old 'made in Japan' Panaflo fans. I still have some in my PC and they are over 20 years old.
I had some of those in a water cooled build years back. Those things were TANKS.
@th3d studio How about new 24V version? could you check that one?
Sorry for the long comment. I am new to 3dp and feel like I am lost on trying to upgrade. Like too many others I want the best of the best cheap. There are so many different options for parts/upgrades that a beginner like myself can fall into a deeeep rabbit hole!! I have lost hours upon hours and days and some sanity a few times trying to find answers
I got a noctua fan with duct mounted on stock hotend, doesn’t seem to create any problem, i’m printing for 24hours and it still going good. How long before i should see any kind of problem ? The fan is rated 05 CFM
Man, you should have seen me swapping the noctua for the stock fan right in the middle of a long print 🤣 Mission impossible style. The extruder started to pop and snap 20 second after i cut the wires. I’m glad they included solderless connectors with the noctua. 😅
im new on this. I have a question what if I put 2 12v noctua fan in series. and I place both 1 over the other cooling the cold end? is a good idea?
No. You should use the fans with the correct voltage for your printer. Series with fans does not usually work the same as other components and can damage parts on the machine (or the fans).
@@TH3DStudio Hello. I'm confused on the issue of using 12v noctua fans on a 24v printer. A buck converter brings in the 24v and allows for a 12v fan to be connected and run to its required capacity on the out end. Could you expand on the the issue with that? If the replacement noctua is putting out the same CFM as the stock fan and getting the correct voltage in the process, what components/parts are being damaged on the machine exactly...and how? Or, are you specifically referring to those who just get a noctua fan to make their printer quiet without considering the CFM? If so, it may be worth stating that noctua fan mods are not a problem...so long as care is taken to ensure that the equivalent CFM is produced.
@@tinkertailor5191 If you are just using the fan on to cool the hotend then a buck converter to lower the voltage is fine, you could even run the fan at 13-14v without hurting it for a little more cfm. I run a 40x10 pwm version noctua on my ender 3 max with no issues using a buck converter at 13v. If cfm really is that big of a issue, delta makes a 40x28mm fan that runs at 13,000rpm with 24cfm, tho the 54dbm might get annoying after a while.
Wouldn't there be no issues running a 12V part cooling fan on a 24V board if I halve the value of the max allowed PWM in marlin firmware? I haven't tried it yet, but I'm wondering if you have. The command in marlin is FAN_MAX_PWM in configuration_adv.h
While that *might work*, it's not recommended. If you forget to change that on an update or there is a software issue you could risk burning out the fan. It's recommended to get the fan voltage for the printer you have.
Don't do that, even if you set the max pwm it will still send 24v to the fan and it won't fry the fan but the mosfet on the mainboard due to the difference in resistance, ask me how i know.... get a buck converter and step down the voltage to the fan and adjust the pwm as normal if you have to use 12v. Personally I recommend just getting 24v fan for part cooling. Spend the extra $ and get delta's.
Could i get some examples for good fans for the Ender 3 series? Dont know much about this stuff :/
These replace the hotend heatsink fan and control box fan: www.th3dstudio.com/product/40mm-sealed-bearing-fan-24v-ender-3-tornado/
Ths replaces the stock layet fan: www.th3dstudio.com/product/4010-ball-bearing-fan-24v/
This is a better layer fan if you are going to use a 3rd party, printed mount: www.th3dstudio.com/product/5015-high-speed-ball-bearing-fan-24v/
Sunon !
You can use noctua 40x40x10 mm,the 5v one can work at 12v without problems,but if you use a step down converter you can give it like 9v and you get more airflow.
Really good way to burn it out but you do you...
CFM ratings between Noctua and TH3D fans not to dissimilar on 40x20mm? Noctua 5.53cfm vs 5.4cfm? Am I missing something.
4020 is fine but weighs more. Basically larger fan = more air. So you can run a large one slower. People are recommending the smaller 4010 all the time and that one is around 3cfm.
The 4010 is not "around 3cfm" for the 12v. It is 4.88cfm.
That is the conclusion I came to as well.
I'm guessing the same thing would apply to a printer's power supply. would putting 2 12v in series work with 24v?
No, that does not work with most fans. You should use the same voltage fans as the power supply voltage is in your printer.
I tried and found out the hard way this does not work (for long) While it seems to make sense on the surface it doesn't work for fans for some reason. This is because unfortunately fans function slightly differently from other electronics in terms of resistance or something. Can't remember the exact details.
How much CFM is on the Ender 3?
Is 7 CFM enough for the stock Ender 3 hotend?
4-5CFM is min recommended that we found worked in testing.
@@TH3DStudio Thank you!
It feels like you’ve been holding this in for a while and this is very cathartic for you.
You have no idea. haha
Im using the smaller 40mm Noctua fan (the 10mm thick one) and run it as intended at 12 volts. It pushes more air in a restrictive environment than the stock fan. So while yes, the stock fan feels like it pushes more air, the Noctua actually prevails when sitting up against the fins of the hotend heat sink. I’m pretty sure, but can’t say for sure, that the people who are having issues may either not be setting their voltage right, under running them, or are using the low noise adapter that drops them to 9 volts.
Should also mention I use an Ender 3 Pro, and often do 24+ hour prints.
In a Creality printer the air is not directed/guided to the heatsink. It just dumps air into the shroud near the heatsink so higher airflow is needed, this is why heatcreep is common when people put the Noctua 10mm in there.
@@TH3DStudio Regardless, the shroud creates a restrictive environment since it surrounds and encloses the fan. Even though the heat sink just sits in the middle. It still creates positive pressure which causes the Noctua to be better. The size of the fan inlet is smaller than the tiny opening at the bottom for the nozzle and the top for the cables. You can feel more airflow from the hole where the nozzle is with the Noctua than stock.
Your amazon link is not working.
What about a noctua 60mm fan instead of the 40mm? that should be plenty right?
You really want a 60mm hanging on the hotend?
@@TH3DStudio Forgive me if it seemed like a naieve question. I am new to 3d printing, and wasn't sure if it had been done or tested. I want to share my experience with others who may have the same question. Two days after I left that comment I installed the 60mm noctua on the stock ender3 hotend with my own version of the hero me and a single 5015 parts cooling fan. I'm happy enough to stick with it. I've done a few 6-8 hour ABS prints at 250c with a full enclosure with great results. I will however say that the 60mm noctua fan, as I learned, is not optimized for the high static pressure needed to overcome the resistance of the application. At 12v, it seems to put out just slightly more air through the heating block than the stock 40mm fan. My original hopes were that I would be able to lower the voltage and match the airflow, But i've stuck with 12v. If I could go back, I would have chosen the 40x40x20mm noctua fan, which is probably better suited for this. I am still very pleased with the sound level result and couldn't be bothered to undo it. I actually think it looks really neat and am proud that I was able to remix my own version of the hero me since, I have only been modeling and 3d printing for about 2 months. I haven't posted my remix yet but if someone wants me to, i can post it. There was a 60mm version of the hero me already, but It was extremely restrictive and utterly ineffective. My version has a very smooth lofted pathway to the hotend heatsink, which helps a lot with the static air pressure issue I was having where i could feel the fan expelling air radially instead of just sucking in. The whole setup is not as big as you'd think, in fact its smaller than running dual 5015 blowers with a 40mm hotend. Not sure about weight but I would guess less also.
@@TH3DStudio I noticed you have quiet 60mm fans on your website that appear to have higher static pressure ratings. I'm willing to bet those would perform better than the 60mm noctua fan and they are cheaper as well. So If anybody really wanted to go the 60mm route, I'd try out those. The static pressure rating is most important in my opinion for the hotend.
My ender 3 was too loud and I just soldered 200ohm resistor to every fan. It is OK so far.
I was wondering why people change the power supply of the fans just to apply a specific one. I thought there should be fans which fit the needed parameters and probably can be quiet, after all - like how you stated it - the stock ones probably not the high-tier ones which often can be found in server hardware.
.
One other thing though, is there a printer head with solutions like water-cooling? The part cooler must be air, but the main head might be lighter, cooler and silent with some clever water cooling blocks.
There are some water cooled solutions but they are definitely not main stream. We don't even mess with those as we don't have a need for them. Most water cooled hotends are for people doing crazy high end materials like PEEK or ULTEM.
Hmm interesting, thank you for the answer! I was considering the water block route to make sure that less fans are making noise and the head itself is more lighter. I ran into the E3D Titan Aqua which seems like a cool all in one solution.
Checked your shop and it seems the ones I would need to just replace the stock ones are sold out, how often do you restock?
I wonder if another crazy route to have air pipes - with cool air - from a different location like in a big CNC machine would be doable.
So...what your saying is that a CR-10 printing PLA for 10 hours with a stock hot end and a Noctua NF-A4x10 PWM in an environment that has a constant temperature between 68-77F will suffer from heat creep?
It would have been helpful to see the fan data that you captured along with temperature readings from two printers running side by side. One with a Noctua fan and another with your fan. Showing us the performance differences. Take temperature readings at 2 hrs, 6 hrs, and 10 hrs.
As much as we would like to do these types of tests and make a video it's a lot of time that we don't have right now. We've started recording repairs and testing now so that we can make videos on them. When we did the testing on the fans we weren't recording anything, just monitoring and taking notes.
Noctua ain’t the issue, but the design for the cooling from the Hotend or the fanduct it’s getting installed on. Running my 2 Sprite Extruders with Noctuas and have zero issues after many hours of printing.
The issue is people putting them on hotends and setups that are not meant to use them and others telling others to put them on there without knowing they are going to mess up someones machine.
Why does my cooling percentage not affect the noise of my hotend fan at all? I have the feeling it's just running the same power no matter what setting I set.
You could have a fan that needs a slower PWM mode. There is a feature in our firmware that is called "FAN_FIX" that sets a slower PWM speed. But this is only for directly wired fans.
If you are using anything between the fan and the board (like a step down converter) then that is not correct and you should remove it, then use a proper voltage fan.
Thanks again, Tim, just bought 2 of your 40mm, I had the same symptoms using a noctua fan on my Micro Swiss/CR-10S last week, where I printed an ABS tool and the printer was under-extruding and jamming about 45% into the print, thought I just had to raise the hotend temp.
So don't use a capacitor, yet on your website for the 5015 you state: "If you flash our firmware there is an option called “#define FAN_FIX” that will fix this issue or if you want to solve it with hardware you can place a 32+V 100uf Capacitor across the fan power wires to smooth out the PWM from stock firmware. "
Either way works but you will have less speed control with the cap method.
how about the noctua 40x20?
Has similar CFM rating slightly better than TH3D equivalent unit.
@@johnpearson9336 The overall performance is around 45% more actually. It is a almost linear curve between airflow and static pressure. The x20 model has increased both static pressure significantly with 27% and also the flow is shifted with 15%. Just remember one fan might have much more airflow, but that is only when you have 0 resistance on the path. That is where the static pressure helps! This 27% more static pressure also come from those 500RPM. Prusa themselvs uses the smaller one - with 10mm thickness, which is their fault.
I read somewhere the stock fan on my ender 3 is 8 cfm
But the question is what fan should I get
Don't go lower than 5 CFM and make sure its not a low static pressure fan. We do carry 24V fans in our shop that last a long time and are a little quieter than the stock ones: www.th3dstudio.com/product/40mm-sealed-bearing-fan-24v-ender-3-tornado/
@@TH3DStudio better get 24v than a noctua and a voltage regulator
How do they perform are they silent
Do you sell for the psu too
The problem with fans is that they literally all look the same, noctua cleverly have a brand image that's very different. Getting a fan manufacturer to provide information like cfm or even in most cases dB level is like pulling teeth. I do wish some one in the 3d printing space would do some work and find quiet 40mm fans to sell to a huge group, preferably somebody in Europe where shipping dosent cost more than the product. This is why noctua reign supreme
Good video just one bone to pick, the wording of the video makes it sound like Noctua make poor products when in fact they make a lot of really high quality fans (hence the 6 year warranty). The problem as you noted in the video isn't any problem from the maker itself but the characteristics of the fan not meeting the requirements for the application. (it would be like putting diesel in a gas car and then blaming the maker of the fuel for the car not working). I've seen people recommend other brands too that are not ideal replacements. I wouldn't hesitate to use Noctua fans in a project IF they made a fan that met the requirements for whatever the intended application was. I used one in a PSU that exceeded the stock fan specs. The noctua 40x40x10 you mention somebody installing on an Ender 3 appears to be grossly under powered in comparison with the manufacturers supplied part from what i could find online. 8cfm vs 4.8cfm, looking at the performance curves of both these fans and for anything more than 1.2cfm the static pressure has to be around zero, not sure how much safety the manufacturer sided with but almost 50% less peak airflow seems like it might cause problems depending on temperatures and print duration. I would have to agree in that I dont recommend it for the creality series of printers and probably others but not because noctua is a bad brand but because the spec of that fan doesn't meet what the manufacturer recommends.
You are correct that they make good fans (I have 20+ of them in computers here myself that are many years old). The issue is people recommending underpowered fans for the 3D printer applications.
ive never had issues with noctua on my printer, just gotta make sure the cfm's are high
While *you* may have not because you put a higher airflow version on, the masses on FB groups are putting the lowest possible fan on theirs in terms of noise and airflow. Whenever there is a "noctua" post no one posts model numbers, just 'get noctua 40mm fan' even though there are many models of them.
@@TH3DStudioyeah i get what you're sayig. i also have an e3dv6 and tell people the exact model i am using with the hotend i have
There is something about the lifespan of the product depending on mounting position. There is different types of fan motor technologies.
Some depend on the orientation but it's not usually a major difference at these slow of speeds. Higher RPM ones definitely will be more particular of orientation vs slower RPM ones.
Hello, about the pwm sound short remark: the pwm frequency should be outside audible frequencie range 20->20kHz. In automotive the 20kHz does the trick. The uC on the motherboard should be able to generate this. Perhaps this helps with configurations of the frimware in the future.
What about a heat sink with watercooling?
Overkill for these kinds of machines but absolutely something that can be done.
rate the capacitors proper and it is all good ... but yes people think bigger is better and then things stop being pwm controllable indeed. I am no fan (no pun intended though) of software pwm .. I adjust the prescalers of the timers in firmware (marlin) to avoid the audible coil whine though.
Yeah some fans get that whine thats annoying. Lots of little variables to look out for.
You, Sir, just earned yourself a sub! That is tech-talk how i like it.
Welcome aboard!
Is the Noctua even too slow on a Rapido UHF at 5000rpm?
Noctua is a brand, as stated in the video the thin 10mm ones are usually not sufficient for cooling most hotends. Their 20mm thick ones are usually OK as they move more air but they weigh more and are 2x the size of the 10mm ones.
Installed a noctua on my Ender3. After 30 minutes my filament got stuck and jammed. Reverted back to original fan and all was back to normal. So noctua is not suitable for hot end cooling!
We've seen that happen a lot (not in 30 minutes though, usually a few hours). But, if you have higher ambient temps in the room it could happen quicker. These are the ones we sell and use on our machines that do not have the issue (they are also quieter than the stock fans, will also last a lot longer): www.th3dstudio.com/product/40mm-sealed-bearing-fan-24v-ender-3-tornado/
Such a great video!
I was just about to order a Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX for my E3D V6 hotend, but before doing that I jumped over to your TH-cam channel to see if there's any video on the topic. Thanks for saving my 15USD+ and hours of troubleshooting.
it's not the brand, it's the CFM: if the noctua fan can push as much air as the old noisy fan then use it
the 4020 noctua is fine its people using the 4010 that's the problem and some of them even use the low noise adapter wire that even slows it down more ,, so just use the 4020 noctua without the low noise plug in and u will be fine
The stock fan on an Ender 3 makes about 7 CFM, the Noctua 4010 Flx does 4 CFM... so not enough.
then use a 4020 noctua been using one on mine for over a year now no problems and is very quite
40 20 12v noctua is what I use and you already can't hear it. I can't believe people would use 5v 40 10s, that's crazy low air flow.
4020 may be OK. Whats the CFM on that?
@@TH3DStudio 5.5cfm on the noctua 40x20 NF-A4x20 PWM fans.
@@TH3DStudio pretty darn good at 5.53
40x20 noctua on the cr-10 with v6 should be fine right?
Oh and two 5015 with your heavy duty mount. And it's your tough hotend.
Should be OK with the 4020 but its a lot more weight on the hotend.
@@TH3DStudio should I get off one off the 5015?I haver your abs printed mount and the though hotend. I hav the 4020, the ezabl full size, two 5015 and the heavy duty v6 abs from you as well all on the hotend. Is it too much? What would you recommend me to do.
@@TH3DStudio If you think 4020 is "a lot more weight" just to backup your "noctua is bad" nonsense, then you should tell people don't use mod like petsfang and bullseye too.
This video came on as I’m half way through installing a Noctua fan 🤔 I’m still installing the fan but at least I’ve seen this video now and looks like a great channel 🤘🏻
OMG...... I have been telling people this for ages, Stop using Noctua fans on your printer...
Seems like there is a lot of bad info out there, maybe not intentional, for the most part I believe it's people that don't fully understand or just lack the experience.
Thanks Tim.
1st
they have 40mmx20mm ones. twice the thickness and more airflow. maybe those can help? I heard you need 6CFM or more and the noctua has it! maybe the lack of thermal paste is an issue? /shrug the noctua is only 0.6w tho. I use a 1.2w and it workes for me? maybe not a noctua but a good decent low noise alternitive that's like 1-2w. maybe not DEAD silent but still better than a jet engine.
I had a V5 tho that's bigger. i use the stock one that came with it on my V6
This guy looks like he is in the International space station...maybe
Noctua or other fan brand but in 40x20 mm is better and silent
40x20mm doesn't fit the stock hotend.
@@TH3DStudio I know but it is a 3d printer. It can easily be changed with a better one like the Hero Me gen3 for example
Been using the 40x20mm with Hero Me Gen2 and 3 for years with no issues on a stock Ender 3 hotend. Also the stock Ender part coolers are crap and upgrading the part fan which normally includes upgrading the hotend shroud should be one of the top 5 things to print for Ender printers. Also a buck converter can be cheaper then buying a 24v fan if you already have the fan. As this video is 2 years old, the updated Marlin 2.0 has better code for running 12v fans on 24v. You can set max's in the configurations.
Noctua 4020 fan boom done, 4010 yeah nah, definitely issues. 4020 however has better airflow
Their 4020 should be OK as long as you can mount it to the printer. The 4010 is what people online are telling people to use in the Creality machines because it fits the stock fan location. The 4020 doesn't fit in the housing on the Creality machines for the hotend.
I can't tell you how many people argue with me about this issue. Reducing the airflow in a system is NOT an upgrade. It's a downgrade. If the stock fan produces heat creep what do you think is going to happen when you reduce the airflow what do you think is going to happen? "i have a noctua on mine and it works fine" ya maybe... You can drain the water out of your car and it will run fine too. Now take a 16 hour road trip.
It may "work fine" for shorter prints. I can tell you that the fans we sell have actually been tested in our print farm for very long terms before we sell a fan. Some people think "just get a fan" without thinking about airflow and pressure on the fan.
@@TH3DStudio just ordered another 24v fan from you guys today... As well a the z screw nut to try out
Its not the fan, Noctua is notorious for high efficacy good static pressure fans, the issue is when people use the "low noise adapter" which has a 100 ohm resistor under volting the fan from 12v to 9v. I understand what your getting at low cpm= worse cooling but it isn't the brand of fan its under volting the fan 25%.
The main issue is the 40x40x10mm being used as that is what fits most stock machine housings. Those simply do not move enough on these smaller heatsinks. The 40x40x20 may work but then you're having to replace the hotend shroud to make it fit and adding more weight.
The problem is using low CFM fans on hardware requiring high CFM fans, not really a Noctua issue.
Correct. The Noctuas are just being the "go to" fans in the community since Prusa uses them.
I just did a comparison of the specs for the Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX 40mm 12V fan with the 40mm 24 fan on your website and they are almost exactly the same with the noctua being slightly higher. I had to convert the specs from imperial to metric though for the fan on your site to compare. The Noctua is 9.4m^3/hr at 2.26 mmH2o. The Vapo converted to metric is 9.2 m^3/hr at 2.29 mmH2o
I have no doubt you,re more knowledgeable than me on these things, and my lack of experience doesn't allow me to have an actual opinion. I just wanted to bring up those comparisons. Maybe the noctua fan is an upgraded version since this video was made, I don't know.
That is a 20mm thick 40mm fan. The ones we carry are 10mm thick so they fit in the stock location. The issue is that people are telling others to buy the Noctua 40mm fan that is 10mm thick that has lower airflow. The 20mm noctua will work but it will not fit the stock hotend due to it being 2x the size and is also heavier so you're also going to add weight to the X carriage.