Is this CHEATING? - Fan Showdown S3E3
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- DigitalStorm - bit.ly/3hpz77M
Is this cheating because the cooling performance makes it seem like it is. Also, the make is cheater but what do you think. today we test 4 more new fans in the fan showdown on our never ending hunt to find the coolest fan designs on the planet.
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/ majorhardware
Fan Showdown Instructions
• EVERYTHING you need to...
Fan Dims
www.thingiverse.com/thing:455...
Submit your design (atlease .STL file)
fanshowdown@gmail.com
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Would love to see assemblies like the cheater run both with and without their accessories. Would be curious to see how much of it is really just airflow efficiency mods vs fan design.
OR, test the assembly with the Noctua fan and see if it performs better?
@@Garbox80 that is a great idea
Yes, if a fan can be run separately from its shroud, it would be great to see what improvements are related to which part. With the Cheater, for example, does the rear air guide, which is a very large part, offer a worthwhile benefit considering its space consumption? There's little doubt that all the pieces help it perform better, but by how much?
@@Garbox80 agreed
You're all right, it deserves its own episode
I'd love to see a redo of the Noctic with the centrifugal spreading issue fixed
If it was kept the same but had a 360° ring around the very edge at the tips I think it would keep everything constrained.
@@jtcustomknives like an eloop from noiseblocker?
I agree. I was disappointed we couldn’t realize it’s full potential.
@@jtcustomknives I too was thinking the same about the ring around the edge to keep the blades from flexing.
YES!!! I would love to see this fan able to push to full RPM. Please Mr. Hastings! Make it work!
Next season there should be two categories, fans that fit well within the Noctua body, and an “open class” where anything goes. That way we get the best of both worlds and the best of the best can rise up in each individual classification
Absolutely agreed. I really like seeing these assemblies and how they perform, but I also don't think it's fair to put them up against single component fans that fit inside the a12x25 chassis.
The cheater was labeled as “Notic” in the bottom left during the smoke test
came to the comments section to say this - see that someone else already did
@@basicmods I got you bro
And the real notic fan blades were on backwards... So it was blowing away smoke, not pulling
@@Jack-Sparks No, it was definitely pulling.
Yep, saw that.
Maybe break it into two categories? Standard where everything printed has to fit inside the fan and a Free For All where anything goes.
One focus on fan blade design, another focus on fan design.
Why penalise someone for 'thinking outside the box'?
@@mitchellbaker4847 I think this is not penalize, just be more specific. Just like both Bill gates and you local store manager are business man, they just working on different level, and you won't classify them together
@@mitchellbaker4847because form factor matters for many applications
@@mitchellbaker4847 When one or two people do it, it's thinking outside the box. When more than that start copying them it should in its own category to separate the pieces to make the puzzle work.
I'm thinking the fan showdown should start breaking out into categories. Multi-part fans, "flat" fans that fit in the fan housing, tall bois, etc.
Agree.
Also need to rate separately for noise and airflow/cooling, or come up with some sort of handicap calculation where noise and temps combine to give the overall score.
just put a * next to them on the leaderboard end say that * means it has shrouds, diffusers, etc
Yeah, something like in motorsport where you have categories like stock and unlimited.
@@koimaxx exactly like that
I think you just need to have a separate ranking including only fan designs that fit within the original form factor. It is really cool to see these all out designs, but most of the big ones aren't practical for actual use, where some of the ones that fit in a regular form factor could be something people actual want to use for the cool factor.
I could see some of these bigger fans used on a side panel over the CPU possibly. Not a bad suggestion though.
Could also have another category for shroud designs
I would put a cheater on my PC if it was optimized a bit more
For me I think a 42db(or lower) normalized test with another ranking would be great, because in the end, it is what counts for most people.
only fan 🤔
Would love to see how the cheater's velocity stack and outlet accessories perform with the base noctua fan.
Took the words from my brain! 😆
I like impractical cheater fan designs. It's like old Formula 1 when teams tested out crazy designs, like the fan car.
Well yeah he bended the rulebook. :D
kinda fitting since it looks like a trumpet from an ITB intake manifold
I think a fan car can work... Well, more like a tesla turbine car.
@@guisampaio2008 look up the McMurtry Spéirling
Should we allow it? Yes, absolutely, stifling ingenuity helps no one, also, it looks cool.
He's already allowed so many of these fans that break the confines of the noctua case that it hardly matters anyway.
As for stifling ingenuity... This changes the entire scope of the challenge. He won without even optimizing the fan itself, and it won't even fit in a case. Yeah, it's clever. It doesn't count as "best fan", though.
@@SwervingLemon Thanks :-)
@@SwervingLemon If you've got the space...why not? There's usually a lot of space in front of a tower cooler, so if you really wanted to, you could. Also a 360 radiator with three velocity stacks would look sick haha
@@SwervingLemon That depends a bit on the case, it looks like it would fit fine in my case (Corsair Carbide Air 540) can't be 100% sure, though.
@@ajsaracina8380 I actually really wanna do that now
I think all the ones that have extra parts should be tested both with and without their parts. Will help extrapolate the benefits of the additions. Imagine the OBB with those parts!
Definitely a good idea... Test out the fans with the components and see whether it's better with or without certain components installed
My interest is in seeing the base a12x25 with the cheater's accessories!
Should test the other fans with the extra parts, that were provided by the one fans extras. Im curious what the results would be.
I will never get tired of this series. The creativity is just amazing.
The Noctic has an incredible pedigree, have the designer rework and resubmit. I think he's on to something.
I'd love to see this fan retested with slightly smaller blades (or of course using Noctua's secretsauce material :P)
Take the original fan .stl file copy and paste a second on the center point except the second fan file rotated a degree or 2
I noticed the Heptopod (being thicker) didn't do as well, so maybe a thinner fan preformes better. May need to improve the structures stability, but keeping a thin blade like the Noctic did might be a good idea.
Waiting for the Fan Showdown where the airflow is so high, "We had to strap the test bed to the bench and still the bench was creeping across the floor. "
How about either:
A) two different classes of fan, based on whether they fit within the bounds of the case or not - kinda like boxing classes.
B) change to efficiency, based on cooling per gram of plastic - which might lead to people making some very lightweight designs!
or efficiency as in performance per watt? hard to measure such a low watt usage though
i think you could just do efficiency as a secondary stat and just have people optimize both
The notic needs a 1mm by 1mm retention ring at the leading edge/point to prevent expansion at speed.
smart
Any word on a market timeframe for the one that got licensed by a manufacturer?
Edit: I don't think it's cheating, it's just another category. You've got your practical fan replacements that could go into a PC, and then you've got the big ol' crazy ones. :-)
Which fan got licensed?
@@joshuahaewardii8540 I forget the exact name... it was from way back in mid season 1.
yeah agree i don't think it's cheating either.. reminds me of those old dell and emachine cpu cooler/shroud designs back in the day.
@@andie_pants it was "The Acceleron" (spelling?) By Thomas if I remember correctly
@@joshuahaewardii8540 it was "The Acceleron" (spelling?) By Thomas if I remember correctly.
The cheater is not cheating. It fits within your dimension constraints. It just shifts the goal posts by making the flow behind the fan just as important as through it. The race now is for better diffusers, better intakes and better fans that work with the best intakes and diffusers. Thi is game changing. Being top without even having an optimised fan is game changing.
aslong as you can mount it on the radiator's id say its fine.
its just like those chrismas tree once of earlier season only the fan is more in the middle.
I absolutely agree. I want the best fans. This is the way forward.
With a little development, smoothing and balancing the Cheater could be amazing - that NEEDS to get noticed and made
"Satisfaction is guaranteed... Performance is not."
That should be the series' catchphrase 😂
Camera upgrades look great for your talking head shots. On the smoke test it looks like the ISO was cranked super high. What camera did you upgrade to?
Ya I think I needed more light for the gopro
Yes I agree the b roles of the fans were a bit noisy, but all in all a solid upgrade 💪
The trick with showing particulates in the air is to hit it with a light from behind (off camera). I usually would do this when filming water effects or smoke even. That back light for smoke will really make it pop!
The smoke test music volume was also way too high imo. Love the videos though! Fan showdown is one of my favorite series on yt!
@@MajorHardware you should do a video on your old A/V equipment and your upgrades, and let us know what you hope each piece of equipment does for you
Something I would love to see is an individual fan video on the Notic that provides it the structural support it needs, such as a full ring along the circumference of the fan
Just a leading edge/point ring - 1mm x 1mm would do the job. If clearance is extremely close, you won't get the "spillage" a fully enclosed ring prevents.
I wonder if printing in a different material like resin would be enough to handle the structural issues.
The "difuser" is actually an static axial flow compressor. It constrains the flow so that only the flow from the fins is unconstrained so it greatly reduses backflow, hence increases static pressure.
Well a lot of people would just call them "stators" to the rotor that is in front of it. And really what it does is turn the swirling induced by the rotating first stage into more pressure/velocity. Still waiting for someone to make a proper turbomachinery style rotor/stator pair for this series.
This is absolutely my favorite series on TH-cam right now. Keep up the awesome work! Also loving the resolution boost
The OBB legit would look like something sell worthy. Look unique, and perform 👍
The OBB looks like the an atom symbol. if someone wants to make a more scientific looking PC.
I am all for big complicated multi-part fans. I just want to see what the absolute limit of cooling performance looks like, with no holds barred.
Agreed, take it to the limit!
I completely agree and think your comment represents the spirit of the fan showdown. No need to complicate things with categories. Lets just see what creators imagine and put their creations to the test of airflow and cooling. That's why this show is so much fun to watch and enjoy. Applying limitations will only throttle down the ingenuity, and in the end, none of us want to see that happen.
Isn't the limit of cooling performance simply not a fan. You could keep things cool better with a liquid cooling loop then any of these fan designs. So if the goal really is finding the best way to pull heat from a case why should he even bother printing fans?
@@christopherpepin6059 Because it's a fun project that people with Blender or other 3D editing programs can participate in from all over the world. It also has interesting results sometimes with crazy designs doing better than expected. Is it optimal? Nah. Is it fun to see what everyone comes up with and then see all their creations compared with albeit rough tests? I think so at least.
@@Quonzer That's kind of my point though. If you change the scope to be finding what actually cools the best in an absolute sense you remove any reason for people to create these fun designs. Those velocity stacks are just an extra piece that could be added to any fan with the same results. I don't see how they inspire creativity all they do is pad numbers and if you just want to see big numbers there is no point in making these fans to begin with.
Nice man, definitely looking good in 4k on my tv lol I always enjoy these episodes so much and love to see what crazy things people come up with, I'm here for it all
Power comparison between them all would be interesting especially when it comes to heavier and lighter fans. That thin fan probably used half the watts of the rest due to the slower rpm and less mass
I'm sure you've heard of the new phanteks fan it out performs the a12x25 for rads. Might be something to bench mark also, just to see where it lies in the charts.
Meh, the performance gap is mostly if not 100% due to the 20% added thickness. Nothing else much to see.
It does not outperform it noise normalized. Only comes close. It is also louder for its plus performance. And no, a logarithmic unit still cannot be divided by a non logarithmic unit like CFM. So nice work from Phanteks, but Noctua is still the best.
What about noise? 37mm thick delta fan rated for 4.8 amps outperforms noctua too. And its 12cm too ;D
@@TheUnPlayable fan blade design is different, number of fins is different, bearing mechanics are different. I think it's more then the 5mm taller blades/frame.
@@LocutusH81 tech buyer guru did a review and it's out performs by about 3°C. All of the other top fan he tested were within 1-2°, but it was lower the the best by 3°. (When noise normalized, and tested on a radiator)
I think that there should be 2 categories: fans and other. Fans would be all fans that fit normally into the fan shroud, without sticking out or any additional accessories. Other would contain everything else. I think this is fair because this doesn't give a unfair advantage to fans that wouldn't be usable in real life.
standard and oversize form factors more like
I agree, but for 3 categories: case fans that can be mounted to push or pull (nothing protruding), cpu cooler fans that can have some protruding (but not so much that you can't fit it in a pc), and everything else
James, I like seeing the different camera speeds and the upgraded camera equipment is nice!
Also just wanna say, another EPIC video, one of your best. Loving the new GoPro, gives really good shots.
Still the best (and most underrated) series on YT!!!
I do plan on submitting a design… one day 😂😂
I'm quite curious to see if we're going to experience "cheater" refinements over time, maybe there are design ways to reduce the footprint while keeping significant aerodynamic properties.
I have a great cheater fan design in my head but I'm not sure if my cad skills are good enough
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the main purpose of a velocity stack isn't to "smooth the airflow" its to increase the velocity using bernoulli's principle. Not an engineer just a mechanic.
Precisely! Granted, slightly less turbulent flow around the inlet is a nice side effect
Source - I've designed intake systems for my own 2 stroke race bikes
Both not really correct. Its to defeat the "vena contractor" effect. which reduces the actual air flow you get.
Velocity and bernoulli's dont really have anything to do with it
@@t_c5266 what do you mean velocity doesn't have anything to do with it, the wide neck allows a large volume of air in and tapers down, where there's less available volume so it increases the velocity, therefore the name AND role
@@brettc5386 velocity doesnt change mass flow though. just speed. Like I said, its more the vena contractor effect, and less the increased velocity giving you the advantage.
@@t_c5266 you didn't honestly say that... Did you???
My guy, velocity IS speed, with a directional constant thrown in there...
Please stop before you hurt my brain.
I certainly like the idea of there being two separate categories:
Practical - where the entire fan design would fit inside a normal shroud and could be used in your average build.
Freeform - where anything goes as long as it fits on the testing rig.
This way we get to see both raw aerodynamics engineering and complete over-engineering setups, alongside the more aesthetic-focused builds.
That would be my vote. I think someone could maintain a list with extra category identifiers on the subreddit if nothing else.
Love the new camera work, great footage.
Id like to see the a12x25 used with the intake and exhaust housings in place and see how they improve the flow of the fan. Try it with just the intake then just the exhaust then both and compare how all 4 setups performed
That would be very interesting to see.
I feel like there's room in my pc case for a Cheater.
So this is where the Cheater Reign started! I recently came across this channel and found this series, even tho i know nothing about the math behind how the fans work, i still enjoy this a lot! very enternaining! The fist video i saw as about the cheater and so i had to go back and binge this series from the start to see where it has begun lol.
This is a stellar channel, IMO. There isn't too much that needs to change or be improved! B-roll and editing are always on point, always a great lineup of fans, and it's always topped off with some silky smooth commentary. TBH, I wouldn't necessarily "upgrade" anything unless you were replacing something defective or it made shooting and editing easier. That being said, you really checked all the boxes in this episode, so if you are intending to grow the channel, you are doing it well good Sir.
3:45 I can’t 😂
I couldn't either 😂
I liked the older camera you used for the smoke test better than this one. It was more clear and didn’t look grainy.
i kinda think the 240 FPS for the smoketest is kinda overkill.. and it clearly impacts the videoquality
It looks like it just needs extra lighting. I can see that he has a light on the left, but I think he would benefit from one on the right too, higher frame rate needs ungodly amounts of light for a super crisp image.
@@Enixious99 whatever it is, I just want to have the older, smooth quality back
9:19 The Cheater cheated so hard, it impersonated a completely different fan!
Man, your production quality _and_ testing methodology continue to improve by leaps and bounds! Keep it going!
A few ideas:
* Are there simple treatments that can improve strength or rigidity of a 3d printed part? (Baking, chemical treatments, etc) and can fan makers also suggest using those post-print?
* Add tests for static pressure ?
* Test at a base rpm value (e.g. 800, flow, noise)
* Test at the maker's suggested rpm (flow, noise, actual cooling performance, if RPM is achievable)
* Test at maximum RPM while noise is below some given Db range (flow, maybe cooling performance?)
And also possibly where (air_flow/power_draw) is at a maximum
This should allow you to characterize fans for a range of computer uses and not for just CPU cooling optimized for a specific CPU cooler.
I like the added components, but I think you should also test without the velocity stacks to see how well they do on their own.
I would say it is perfectly fine, I like the additions that optimize flow.
I think breaking it into categories, so you have one class that fits and another with no limits. This was entertaining! Love this series
I'm glad you started showing the pictures of the fans on the bottom left corner during the smoke tests because I never remember the names of the fans, so just having the names like before was confusing to me.
Yes totally allowed, love the hard work, engineering, and creativity! He deserves to be #1 to push everyone else to make something even better! Plus it's great content watching :)
I think there should be 2 categories, with accessories and without accessories. Obviously adding shrouds will give it a leg up over designs without shrouds, so not really fair to the other fans. At the same time I really enjoy clever solutions like these, and want to see more. Maybe we can encourage more outside the fanbox designs and rank them separately, then it would be interesting to run the seasons fans within those solutions and see how much we can get good standalone design working in an expanded platform.
Like the new camera quality and the videos are awesome as always.
I'd love to see the Notic with a small ring around the outside to prevent the flexing issue. Great video!
btw: just finished your the NH-AAS :D works like a charm!
like the upgrades. but I think the light setup of the smoke test was better in the previous one. And it made me feel happy that your videos are finally getting sponsored aside from getting 3d printing stuffs. I have been following major hardware since you made the air-water cooler. that was really interesting. its been like being a part of the show. Thanks for the wonderful videos.
Can you test the velocity stack and "diffuser" to see what they do with other fan designs? Seems like they would artificially improve any fan blade design.
Yup. The fan itself looks like it's a pretty bad one. Heavy, unbalanced and poor performing (barely beat Noctua even with the shroud).
Obligatory I'm a huge fan joke.
Love the speed up of smoke tests - usually I skip them because they are so slow but speedup helped.
I love that the simplest stuff delights you. Makes this show really worth watching.
I think most of the performance advantage of the cheater was from the velocity stack. I don't think the huge rear shrouding helped too much and just made the entire package extra bulky
And it would be much more practical to fit into a case with just the velocity stack!
It's actually opening larger area of the cooler for the flowing air. But yes, it can very well be pointless :-D
Given that one blade was limited to a specific RPM it would have been interesting to see the performance of the other fans limited to the same RPM for comparison sake.
These videos get better and better everytime I watch them!!
Somehow this became my summer TH-cam show to watch !!
I don't even own a computer !!! But I tune in for every episode.
Great series out of nowhere !!!!!!!
What's the music you use for the smoke tests? Might be a good thing to add to the description
Come 2Gether by Ooyy
I already sent 2 fans. working on a 3rd…(plane wing)
Keep up the good work. If nothing, it's good practise. I send about 4 fans a week including assemblies.
James must have a difficult time selecting.
One of my later plane wing designs is taking a plane wing and sampling it along a spiral curve. This looks like a birds wing, where the wings are feathers. I am hoping it will be shown since a long time now.
Here is a short animation of my Floor-Fan inspired submission... th-cam.com/video/xO89C-9wRR8/w-d-xo.html
This show is the only reason I subscribed to this channel. Keep em coming man. Keep em coming. 👍😁
My 1440p 144hz monitor (and I) love your choice of upgrade, Thank you. I love this show & I've seen every ep and I hope to enjoy every one to come.
How does this already have a dislike. These vids rock.
@@industrialvectors imagine actual noctua dislikes a video.
I'm surprised that the Fan Showdown has gone on this long. In a good way! I'm impressed with the creativity of everyone keeping this interesting. Awesome job everyone!
That said, I think the Fan Showdown really needs to have two categories now. We've proven that intake cowls help. Now we've got exhaust too. Well, duh, right? Make a fan bigger than the limitations of the fan housing and it performs better. When done right. But, of course, would it FIT everywhere it could be used? NO! Of course not. So I think, to be fair to the fan designers, two categories: a. fit and b. chonkers. That way fan designers get fair comparisons and competition.
You do have a point, but i would rather say to solve it by having two leaderboards. The first one only the fan (even fan with "attachments" could join if tested without them) and a second one where anything that fits are alowed. This should keep the series concise and easy to folow due to everything being tested on the same video but would keep the competition fair.
To be fair, i doesn't see a problem with how it's done right now, after all it's just for fun. Doing all of this additional testing may require way more work and time for each episode, could be a problem.
Great designs
Great video as always 👍
Thanks for sharing your experience withallof us 👍😀
Just wow the camera upgrade is amazing great work 💯💯
Its not. A fan is a fan.
I'm surprised that the cheater won, with its unconventional and noisy fan blade design.
I'm not a fan of the assemblies, I think it's out of the scope of the contest. Just about every fan would perform better with a shroud assembly, it's a no brainer. you may as well test every fan with and w/o a shroud.
Camera setup looks amazing, I can make out so much detail in the background now!
Love the ingenuity I keep seeing here. The Cheater is just an amazing design. I hope to see more like that one!
Its not cheating if you make the rules ( ;
The cheater is legit as can be man! (From a bending rules to win perspective, no idea yet how it performed but I’m all for it!)
I really like your fan showdown. Entertaining and interesting. Do more of it. Do you still have fan models to print out?
So I will admit: I was not a subscriber but anytime I saw your videos in the infinite recommended scroll, I would watch them! Excellent content.
Oh, now your upping your videos to a resolution that actually works in my 4K life? Subscribed. Your videos always look great, but now they are on a whole new level!
Had a thought about your db levels. I think it would be cool to also see an audio spectrogram to see where some frequencies peak. I noticed some of the fans have a specific whine to them that even though the db levels were lower, the whine was annoying. I would much prefer a "white noise" fan with a higher db over a lower db with a noticeable whine to it.
Love your channel, keep up the great work.
I have to correct the velocity stack thing. Its not to smooth it down to laminar flow. The point of them is to remove the sharp edges gradually so there is no discontinuity that causes a "contraction" of the flow. Its known as the Vena Contractor effect. Which make an orifice, such as the fan opening, give you less actual area of air flow than the area of the opening
New camera looks great! Slow mo needs a little work, but your channel has come a long way in quality, so keep it up!
We have a new king!
The printing of this batch of fans is very nice, good job!
Liking the new setup, the quality is amazing! Just a quick tip about cinematography, you generally want to have the camera at or above your eye line as this makes the shot look more flattering as you aren't looking up at the person on screen
I got to thank you, because I got a 3D printer just because I was following your original Fan Showdown. Gotta Say I love it, I love designing my own parts and I'm on my 5th 1KG spool of PLA
Tbh, I did not expect that obb to be so effective. Great job 👍
I think I derive a lot of joy of watching this from watching the smoke tests and trying to guess which fans rank where. So far, I tend to be pretty spot on, so I think the smoke tests are really indicative of the effective performance of the fans--which is probably why we've been using those visualizations for so long in fluid dynamics.
looks great! now you gotta get those nice charts, I'm always in need of reference when you tell the stats
Love these videos! Minor correction - on the smoke test the Cheater is labeled the Notic.
Great content as always. For comparison or baseline could you include the stock fan that comes on the motor. Stats I mean.
3-3 is looking snazzy man, great work!!
Production quality is definately up, good stuff. Im not the most tech minded guy, but these are super cool
This is looking beautiful, the new quality really makes a difference.
I love the use of clips it was really cool and funny
@Major Hardware - Since you've made some appearance upgrades, I've got a suggestion for the smoke demonstration - Get a windowed case with a good front mess vented panel. Install the fan so that it blows air out the front of the case, and pump in some smoke from the rear. Let the case fill up with smoke, then turn the fan on and maybe timelapse how long it takes the fan designs to (mostly) clear out the case of the smoke you pumped in. (suggestion - Corsair 4/5000D Airflow)
this way it's a bit more real-world application-esque... our fans don't sit out in the open when they're running, they pull air into a chamber and then they push it out.
Love the series
NOTIC full speed retest with a slim ring around the fins to keep them from spreading
like, subscribe, and comment well earned. i love this series. it's a great combination of fan interaction, humor and science. I find the smoke tests equal parts fascinating and insightful, keep up the good work.
The lighting in the smoketest shots was super dope. And the high frame rate really benefited the shots
And i think the noctic should be printed again a little smaller so it can spin faster without touching the housing
I'd love to see a dual Fan design, where one Fan runs Clockwise and the other Fan, directly attached to the first runs counterclockwise, with an inverted Blade design of course.
That thing must blast Air through like nothing before...
Seems like you could fit other fans inside the Chester's peripherals and / or test just the fan by itself...
It's been brought up previously but maybe 2 classes? A "within the dimensions of the Nocuta" and an unlimited class? Amazing work as always.
i really love fanshowdown and the slowmos are very nice to watch!! and there is no cheating only clever engineering !
Have you thought about recording the frequency of the sound made as well as the volume? I feel like some of them sound better than others even at the same dB, and it'd be interesting to me to get an idea of which frequencies I find less annoying. Also, this series is fantastic. I never miss an episode. You rock.