Something scandalous and likely illegal, as a radio engineer I used to maintain gear on strange remote sites, at one the DNO fuse was left next to the meter with a note. The site was literally at the top of a mountain, "you guys know what you are doing, put the fuse in yourselves, I am not coming back up here just to put the fuse in".
I really don’t get why people try to bash others for helping and promoting the industry! Everyone will have different opinions and be friends with different people that’s life but trying to cause disharmony is bang out of order! Mark has done outstanding work for apprentices/trainees and also us who are qualified, Mark is genuine person who cares, look at A121, the time and efforts that alone is phenomenal. One the cable head fuse subject, the DNO’s do a course G39 for working on unmetered supplies to street furniture, that course covers pulling the fuse, why they cannot get one for domestic single phase supplies baffles me
Gas and water suppliers supply a user accessible isolator to disengage the supply to premises. The home resident can use this user accessible isolator at any time. With electricity they may or may not provide a user accessible and operated isolator. However the electricity supplier does provide a method of isolation. It is more involved entailing pulling a fuse from its housing, but isolation it is. If the premises need isolating this is the only method. If the supplier disapproves of this method of isolation, they can always provide another.
Surely by now, it should be in the regulations that the supplier should fit a 100A isolator. It would make the job so much safer for the electrician and it removes the worry the supplier has of someone bypassing the meter.
Yes of course it should. The people writing the regs seem to push things they think improve safety, some of which are questionable in terms of cost versus the actual difference it will make to real word safety, but a basic means of safely isolating the supply between the head and the fuse board is not mandated. The only obvious answer is that the Dnos don't want it, because they can make money from maintaining the status quo.
Until they fit isolators as standard when they do meter upgrades, I’ll carry on pulling them. Savery hits the nail on the head, safe isolation has priority, it’s not like we pull them to Jack the meter. As long as correct ppe is used and reseal after, no problem at all, provided the equipment is in good enough condition to do so. It’s silly this is even a debate, we are trained to handle it. I agree a course to satisfy them would be the best course of action.
I work for a DNO and I've never known anyone get into trouble over pulling a fuse but how many viewers have the correct PPE to pull fuses there's some cuttouts on the network that I wouldn't want somone touching unless they were doing it everyday some contain asbestos how do you know the fuse hasn't overheated and won't fall apart when you try to remove it there's some that if they have been overheated and get damp the fibre resin they are made out of can become conductive .All this being said I agree there should be a training course you can attend and authorisation to pull fuses of a certain type because most old cuttouts should be changed anyway
Everyone will be horrified by this, I’m from heavy industrial background, Later worked as a Building Services Engineer. Some 40 years ago ( I’ll be 83 in May) I attended a animal byproducts factory ( Bone Works ) It had lost a phase and production stopped. I checked the mains incomer and found the blue phase incoming supply had the solder run out of the lug. Nowhere to isolate it. I got a rubber mat, a petrol blow lamp (Sievert I still have it ) and a stick of solder. I unbolted the lug out it on the live incoming conductor and actually soldered the lug back on & re terminated it. Production resumed . The factory was in Manchester, Red Bank opposite Strangeways Prison
If they don't want us to pull the fuse during the major smart meter upgrade they should have fit isolators... I have had them come out recently they didn't say a lot just checking what was going on because it showed a outage on the system 🕵️♂️
Have to say my dealings with electricity northwest have been great, times iv had supplies moved but not been able to be there to connect tails on the day and iv mentioned it and each time there reply was “no worries, we’ll connect everything up meter fitter will come and fit meter and set it up, when you can call over and just pull fuse connect your tails then give us a bell and we’ll come and seal it up” Iv also spoken to different engineers on call outs to dodgy mains and said what’s your view on pulling fuses and again they all say “we’ve no issues with it check it’s safe to do, pull fuse and crack on, then either seal up or give us a ring and we’ll sort it” Always had a good ecu with them that includes speaking to people on the phone. Myself I just pull them, rubber gloves on, load off, pull it do job.
If you're with one of the CPS schemes then SSE (Scottish and Southern) will give you a book of seals an a form to fill in that you then return to them when its full. They then send an engineer out to reseal the fuses (apparently).
Just came across this post so I thought I'd chuck in As an ex sparks - gave up the bun fight of mostly industrial/commercial installations to make wooden things - I never once blinked when it came to pulling the service fuse when necessary ... and there's been a few!! Back in the day the meter wheel was made of stone..... One possible solution is for a DNO to authorise an electrician or company to carry out safe isolation of an installation is either to provide some form of course that is nationally recognised or create a system whereby electricians can register for a unique identifier based on the organisation they are registered with i.e. Napit, NICEIC etc etc. In the case of the former, those who pass receive a unique identifier which is provided cast into a stamping tool. They should then provide seals that can be imprinted with the identifier issued to them. These identifiers should be registered on a database that is accessible by the installers, meter readers and DNOs so that the company who sealed the main incoming service can be identified. In the case of the latter it would basically be the same process, but probably cheaper. The whole system could be automated with the installer notifying the DNO when an isolation is going to occur, likely duration and other details and the system could then be updated by the installer when the installation is complete as part of the certification process - it could even be added to the certification provided by the installer to the customer on completion.........this can obviously be expanded, but I think an idea for discussion.
Another sound one guys, since I was an apprentice in the 80s electricians have been pulling the cut-out fuse to change boards. There was talk of an incorporated self-connection isolator on the smart meters but that got muted by the meter providers. If Nick's got a consumer unit upgrade the providers are not going to rock up in the morning when he gets there he has to wait for them same when he has completed they will come in their own time. As for Mark Allison, it is well understated or known about what he has done with Apprentice 121 I can't see how anyone can have any beef with him for going on other podcasts.
Now with smart meters they exactly know when you pull the main fuse out. 15 min after some dude turned up asking if someone disconnected the meter and now he needs to change the sim card.
We pull all the time ….. as stated safe isolation Also all your customers should claim there fine back as it has nothing at all to do with them 5 or 6 years ago one of my customers was on the ball on who can cut and pull the fuse so arranged a day when the dno operator was to call …… British Gas engineer came ….. yes British Gas has a electrical devision ….. but talking with the guy he was gas devision sent as no sparks available not an electrical pulled fuse yet sparks are not Now yes people pull fuses but my beef is sparks don’t reseal ….we do Here is how we had pulled for 30 years and never had a problem Go to your local fishing tackle shop and ask for steal wire crimp kit £15 gives you 1000 reseals wire …steal crimp …. And crimp tool And you can’t tell the difference with a dno seal. It is exactly the same
I done board change recently and pulled the fuse, the Ze was unstable and I notified the DNO. Got a call back how did you upgrade the tails! Pulled the fuse it wasn't tagged. Lad was fine but said careful there's lot young jobsworths will report it.
As for removing the old csu & sticking a bit of twin & earth into the 100A fuse, I've done twice recently where 1 customer had an oxygen machine / mask that couldn't be unplugged for too long & another that insisted that his wife HAD to use the router as she works from home. I know that a bit of 2.5 is not rated at 100A but this is where experience & having a steady hand ( & brain) come into play.
I think the biggest issue is tracing who pulled that fuse. All meter fitters and the DNO get sealing pliers that are tracked to thar company and engineer. If they are stolen they have to be reported to the police. It would be very difficult to issue and track thousands of sealing plier numbers plus make sure that no one is doing dodgy things with them like bypassing the meter. It’s crap really. But I agree with you guys there has to be a better way.
An excellent discussion guys, really really enjoyed the chat. We usually get the home owner to arrange an isolator be fitted. But your right it's a cluster feck that needs sorting. Ref Nick and Adam coming to work with us. This was the awesome idea of Mr John Bagley. I am a mere middle man ☺️
South East example, asked energy supplier for Isolator install - 4 months later they told me it'll be £130. Couldn't be bothered with them, so paid Spark £160 to supply and fit, bit over odds, but it's done now. Great podcast/video thingy guys 👍
Hi guys. I am not a sparky but have had electricians as friends for 50 years. Down here in Oxfordshire we are now Scottish and Southern, but used to be Southern Electric Board. In the days of SEB, electricians always had a bundle of official seals to replace any they had cut. 10 years ago when our puny overhead supply was replaced with a new underground 3 phase feed we left an isolator on the board with tails for the DNO to connect to the new meter. Keep up the great work with the videos and discussion groups, I am working my way through amendment 2, masochism or amusement ? not sure.
Many yrs ago i used to ring the eeb & asked them to remove the main cut out but normally spent soo long on the phone ( sometimes half a day) that nowadays i either pull it my self or if its a smart meter i just remove the tails coming out of said smartmeter.
Great show , when we rewired properties in Yorkshire, YE had a big roll out of installing the DP switches prior to the rewired being carried out so we could isolate the incoming supply. sounds like no other DNO has done this . If a property had no switch and we reported it they would install one in 5 days prior to our work .
Yep we are lucky in the YEDL/Northern Powergrid area. They are usually pretty responsive even today with fuse pulls and isolators. Well in my experience anyway.
The laws say you must be *competent* to work on electricity. You do not need to be registered with anyone to work on electricity. So a DNO is discriminating against people legally working on electricity. They may find a court of law will go against them.
Remove the fuse if everything is ok ,no problem !! Welded in fuse due to loose contacts or bitumen bubbling up is a different situation ,can you pull it or does it brake leaving exposed conductors,difficult call . Who then is liable for time customer off supply while the problem is corrected and at who's cost ??
Why they havent fitted isolators when fitting smart meters i have no idea. I bought an isolator and got the meter guy to fit it whilst he was there (he managed to fit it the wrong way round but its there).
So pulling a fuse that you are not trained to pull or have suitable training to asses it's condition is safe? The safest thing you can do is get an isolator fitted
Some countries are fitting a switched isolator in lieu of a master fuse for the very reason that sparks needs to be able to isolate post Meter promptly. Here in Australia that seems to be the way it's gone on new builds. It's always been a contentious thing about where does the consumer feed starts. £250+ vat is very expensive probably double what you'd pay in other countries. Surge arrestors were an option on residential boards in my country back in the late 90s but asany consumer appliances have arrestors and voltage clamps built in nowadays.
I can understand replacing or upgrading the fuse but just pulling it for maintance should be your right or even the customers if they get a consumer unit failure that they can prevent turning into a fire etc.
I don't know why haste arnt allowed to fit isolators anymore I work for a DNO and haste work for us if we need to make alterations to anything after the meter and they are authorised to pull fuses to allow them to work safely
I had a 3 phase supply that I got the DNO to pull one time as the main switch fuse was burnt out. The two lads that turned up just said "have you got flash gear (yes) - then pull the fuses, and just reseal it after", even when it was on a 3 phase smart meter. Now UKPN won't fit DP's - has taken ones out that we've already fitted in preparation for CU changes and as a company will fine people - but their engineers often won't bother noting it down and in many cases will actually hand seals to reseal the head because they know you have to work to the EAWR. As such I will continue to pull the fuse, on occasion I might disconnect from the meter and leave it live - dependant on what meter is fitted dumb/smart. That's within my comfort zone and I'm a few years older than Nick but back when I was taught to change the old Metal re-wireable CU's It was quite common to put a rubber sock over the end of the tails and pull them live. So the tools and methods we now use to make sure we're working safely are much preferable.
Had 😂a western power engineer see main cutout fuse was out.. Said I be 10min having cuppa I didn't see that😂 Put fuseback in when you done doing fuseboard change and I be back in..😂
Years ago it was the LEB. And as long as you phoned them to let them know …it was fine. The last time I pulled one up north the police called. ( yea) the young lad was on a tag. They thought he had done a runner ..
I had it not so long ago with a consumer unit for a housing association property which the main switch had melted on the consumer unit ( plastic dripping) Western Power were called to fit an isolation switch in the meter cabinet, the engineer fitting it said most people just pull the fuse. Western Power charged over £300.
As a sparky in the 70tees and 80tees on rewiring multiple council properties we had to strip back the old tails live and strip back the new tails and twist them together then tape them up ready for the at the time the neeb the local electric authority to turn up weeks later to install the new ones into the meter we did hundreds mad days ☹👍
When my smart-meter was installed, they replaced my old isolator with a new 'to standard' isolator - although (under the stairs) it was still a plastic enclosure!
What annoys me more is when the smart meter rollout was happening, it was the perfect opportunity to put an isolator in when it was installed. I asked my person on the day of install to put on one in, he never did! Now I have to pay Western Power how much to fit one? I'd rather just keep the old board if it's going to cost me this much. No one should be fined, bashed, whatever for taking safe and sensible measures to isolate what they are working on.
OK I have to chime in on the bus bar buzz bar. It's a bus that's also a bar kind of like a bus route or would that be route. but I also love that you called it a buzz bar out there and I think both are acceptable. In the states it's a busbar although our panels it's usually built-in and the breakers plug on in various matters.
My understanding is that if the seals are the old led type with a three digit number on one side and a crown on the other side the are classed as Government seals and it is a criminal offence to remove them, but if they are the new aluminium type with out the crown stamped on them then you can ? As they are not classed as government seals. Also they are readily available from RS comments and even fishing tackle shops . How true that is i’am not sure. Fantastic show guy’s as always 👍👍👍👍❤️
I may or may not have worked for Western Power (now National Grid) for the past 20 years & totally agree it's a mess. As far as I can see, each DNO interperets the guidelines differently. Technically, it's correct that only the DNO, supplier's MOP or a small amount of approved electrical firms can pull the fuse. That doesn't mean it makes sense. There is a safety element but that could be addressed with a training course & certification. There is also an element of the DNO making some easy money from monopolizing the work. I think the reason the issue never gets resolved is the size of the DNOs. Nobody takes responsibility for dealing with such issues. The frontline staff have to deal with it year after year but management aren't affected, so nothing gets done.
I enquired to WPD to do the isolation course at their training facility in Taunton. A manager said "You can do the course but we will not allow you to become a registered fuse puller as we would have to issue you with a personalised set of sealing pliers. We already have too many authorised people doing this right now". This is how I would perform a safe isolation of the supply in order to replace a DB. Remove all loads and remove supply fuse, wait for all LEDs on the smart meter to extinguish (can take 5 minutes). Remove kWh meter terminal access plate and remove consumer tails, then refit access plate and reinstate supply fuse. Replace DB and then carry out the procedure again to get the tails reconnected. Check supply fuse is suitable rated for the tails and that both screws are torqued up. Print off a label with the fuse rating and place on the cut-out. Re-seal the supply fuse & kWh meter (seals available on eBay). This method means that the smart meter is energised whilst you are replacing the DB and the electric police won't be alerted. If you care to alert WPD that there is a 100A supply fuse but the tails are sized at 16mm2 then you can simply state that there is a printed label on the cut-out and they should investigate, or an purchase an 80A fuse from CEF and do it yourself.
People often say the DNO can "fine" us for this. The wrong - only the police or courts can issue fines. The DNO could start a civil case against an electrician or their business, that's all.
Provided they were incorporated, yes but, a sole trader, no. You’d be arrested & cautioned &/or fined at a magistrates court & have the criminal conviction on your record.
@@jonathanrose456 Nonsense. What is the actual law being broken? Point me to where i legislation this is a criminal matter. It is not. How is the DNO getting evidence unless they were physically present? I can't think of a single instance where the CPP have ever been involved in such a case. At most it is a civil matter and the DNO has no chance of proving it as seals could have been removed by anyone at any time. Safe isolation is a clear defence.
@@AJBTemplar 1. The property belongs to the DNO (including any seals). When you cut the seal you are doing criminal damage to their property. 2. The Utilities Act 2000 Ch.24
@@AJBTemplar As for evidence… the customer would probably grass you up. Safe isolation isn’t a defence as PPE is available to do the job safely plus, there is the process where you can contact the DNO to arrange disconnection.
@@AJBTemplar As the meter, etc., used to belong to the government, it has been given criminal status. I believe the fines are up to £2000 & up to 5 years in prison for tampering with a meter.
I work for my local council as a road lighting spark, you have to do a G39 course and safe isolation which allows you to pull DNO cutouts. Why can something like this be put in place for domestic sparks? Or even some kind of DNO authorisation to pull service cutouts in domestic situations.
I cant understand not being able to do it really. As long as you’re competent. Considering I come from an industrial background and have worked on 200-400A busbar chambers, including isolating 1500A electric ovens. Personally I cant see the problem.
I fit smart meters for one of the big firms. We’re only told to fit isolators where necessary, as in customer has an old consumer unit and probably will be having it changed, undersized tails 16mm on 100A fuse or VIR etc. If there’s a 100A fuse with 25mm tails from the cutout to meter and onto the consumer unit too most engineers won’t fit one. Don’t know any engineers that remove isolators either, odd
As I was told its your electricity supplier not the dno who would come out to fit a isolator. The dno will not come out to fit an isolator that's sp energy
My thorts on this is I would argue that it is illegal not to provide safe isolation after the meter or even before it. What if the meter started to smoke. I have cut tails close to the CU and installed henley blocks. The from there to the CU as every think after the meter they say is up to the home owner if there is a fault. So I see it they say it is your responsibility. So as you say a smart meter should have the ability to isolate the power. Such as there is for incoming gas and water. Why not power or just let the smart meter if you on a cash top up run out then it is off do the work and top up but that would just be stupid.
Northern powergrid and British gas last year charged £35 quid to fit a DP isolator. Not sure of the current prices . Only problem is no decent turn around time. All smart meter installs should have come with a isolator built in or external at instal, so was poorly thought out (or not £££) next topic....25mm tails while dno is 16mm
Electric installs in France have a 500mA RCBO style breaker set to either 15/30/45/60A. (Single phase installations) When we work on the install we can always be safe in the knowledge that we can isolate and if the DNO’s breaker trips out, the consumer can reset it themselves. We don’t have to ring up Deano or Pablo beforehand and arrange 2 mutually convenient appointments to first isolate and then restore. Your DNO’s could have taken the opportunity as Dave has said in the past to install isolators at the same time, but they didn’t. They can of course isolate them remotely, but is anyone going to rely on an electromagnetic relay for which the engineer has no mechanical way of making sure the contacts are not accidentally reenergised? Isolation course is the best mid way ground I think for you guys vs the DNO, fitting an isolator each time with the hope that in years to come, they are rolled out in the majority of installations.
In Belgium the meterbox has a standard MCB of 40A ( mono phase ) or 25A ( 4pole ) . So we can turn it of whenever we need to . It also trips ofcourse when pulling to much current or making a shor . In verry old installation you sometimes see meltfuses in a sealed meterbox . Don't get why stil 100A melfuses are used and you can not disconnect yourself to work on the installation safely...
We havd same issues in the states.customer is responsibility is to the point the utilities wires connect to the customers. Overhead at weather head or if underground customer has to supply wire to 2ndary side of trans former. The meter is owned by the utility. Prior to smart meters electrician did disconnect and reconnect on all over head services We were never allowed in the underground or padmount transformers. Different utilities and different authority have different rules. Now with solar metered its more of a mess. In the end the utility and the authorities could care less about the customer need for power. They cry its safety reasons. Simple answer is give the autority for repairs to licensed contractors thank you
Why don't they just install th ffing isolator instead all this palaver? The on-site guide has the installation design displayed with an isolation switch
Sam Robin industry’s were based in harrow they rebranded as Robin electronics and relocated to Watford , they rebranded again in early 2000 as kewtech industry and relocated to Chesham . If you look at the Robin KTS 1620 MFT and the Kewtech Kt62 you will see they are one and the same except Robin are yellow the kewtech is grey. The replacement for the kt62 is the KT 63 . Robin are great testers and are still compliant. I have both. I have this directly from NAPIT Vulcanworks is an inspector only he only has 2391-52 inspection and testing qualification, nothing more If you watch any of his videos you will see the quality of his work is questionable at best he has only been in the industry since 2019 . In one of his videos at a vicarage he has installed an outside light directly under the boiler flue and another one under the front porch directly in front of the CCTV camera so now when that light is on it will blind the camera . Watch his videos and judge for your self . There are pictures on his Facebook page that shows this
On the condition that you are a qualified and registered electrician AND that you reseal it after your work is complete - pull it. There is an overriding reason for safe isolation.
One of the reasons is that the main fuse will have to have its seal redone, so I don't think the DNO would like to issue there fuse/meter seals to any electrcian , not going to happen
@@ELECTRICIANSPODCAST ah ok fair enough… bit different than having live tails flapping about and trying to get them out the DB lol Better out than in, that’s what I always say
Show me an electrician that has never pulled that fuse in their life and I'll show you a liar. We've all done it. There really is no procedure. Some DNO operators will tell you to pull it, some will tell you that they will fine you if you so much as look at the fuse the wrong way. There is no evidence that you have touched the fuse, especially if you fit an isolator. Just blame that on another electrician. I've never been in trouble for it since I pulled my first fuse in 2000. I've never even been questioned. Smart meters are making it harder for electricians to get away with working safely and isolating the supply. Here's an idea to get around that. Pull the fuse, very quickly fit an isolator between the head and the meter and then replace the fuse. When someone comes to investigate, just blame the fuse and isolator on the previous contractor.
So we’ve paid for smart meters through the costs being passed on via the bill which has save the electricity companies £££ as they legally had to replace the meters every x years, why the f… don’t they fit isolators at the same damn time. To be fair the chap fitting the smart meters for my mum and dad put one in which was nice of him.
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Something scandalous and likely illegal, as a radio engineer I used to maintain gear on strange remote sites, at one the DNO fuse was left next to the meter with a note. The site was literally at the top of a mountain, "you guys know what you are doing, put the fuse in yourselves, I am not coming back up here just to put the fuse in".
lol
I would love David Savery to come and do a job for me, obviously because he clearly knows his job, but mostly as he swears as much as I do 😄
I really don’t get why people try to bash others for helping and promoting the industry! Everyone will have different opinions and be friends with different people that’s life but trying to cause disharmony is bang out of order! Mark has done outstanding work for apprentices/trainees and also us who are qualified, Mark is genuine person who cares, look at A121, the time and efforts that alone is phenomenal.
One the cable head fuse subject, the DNO’s do a course G39 for working on unmetered supplies to street furniture, that course covers pulling the fuse, why they cannot get one for domestic single phase supplies baffles me
We agree
Gas and water suppliers supply a user accessible isolator to disengage the supply to premises. The home resident can use this user accessible isolator at any time.
With electricity they may or may not provide a user accessible and operated isolator. However the electricity supplier does provide a method of isolation. It is more involved entailing pulling a fuse from its housing, but isolation it is.
If the premises need isolating this is the only method. If the supplier disapproves of this method of isolation, they can always provide another.
Surely by now, it should be in the regulations that the supplier should fit a 100A isolator. It would make the job so much safer for the electrician and it removes the worry the supplier has of someone bypassing the meter.
Yes of course it should. The people writing the regs seem to push things they think improve safety, some of which are questionable in terms of cost versus the actual difference it will make to real word safety, but a basic means of safely isolating the supply between the head and the fuse board is not mandated. The only obvious answer is that the Dnos don't want it, because they can make money from maintaining the status quo.
Great having all you chaps on video. Thank you chaps
Until they fit isolators as standard when they do meter upgrades, I’ll carry on pulling them. Savery hits the nail on the head, safe isolation has priority, it’s not like we pull them to Jack the meter. As long as correct ppe is used and reseal after, no problem at all, provided the equipment is in good enough condition to do so. It’s silly this is even a debate, we are trained to handle it. I agree a course to satisfy them would be the best course of action.
I work for a DNO and I've never known anyone get into trouble over pulling a fuse but how many viewers have the correct PPE to pull fuses there's some cuttouts on the network that I wouldn't want somone touching unless they were doing it everyday some contain asbestos how do you know the fuse hasn't overheated and won't fall apart when you try to remove it there's some that if they have been overheated and get damp the fibre resin they are made out of can become conductive .All this being said I agree there should be a training course you can attend and authorisation to pull fuses of a certain type because most old cuttouts should be changed anyway
That was a fantastic episode guys... Davo.. well done Sir for being honest about the fuse issue.. not many have the Brass to be honest.
Winning work to keep your business going as well as keeping yourself safe at work is worth the argument with the dno if they ever turn up
Everyone will be horrified by this, I’m from heavy industrial background, Later worked as a Building Services Engineer. Some 40 years ago ( I’ll be 83 in May) I attended a animal byproducts factory ( Bone Works ) It had lost a phase and production stopped. I checked the mains incomer and found the blue phase incoming supply had the solder run out of the lug. Nowhere to isolate it. I got a rubber mat, a petrol blow lamp (Sievert I still have it ) and a stick of solder. I unbolted the lug out it on the live incoming conductor and actually soldered the lug back on & re terminated it. Production resumed . The factory was in Manchester, Red Bank opposite Strangeways Prison
Whaaaaaat legend
If they don't want us to pull the fuse during the major smart meter upgrade they should have fit isolators... I have had them come out recently they didn't say a lot just checking what was going on because it showed a outage on the system 🕵️♂️
Have to say my dealings with electricity northwest have been great, times iv had supplies moved but not been able to be there to connect tails on the day and iv mentioned it and each time there reply was “no worries, we’ll connect everything up meter fitter will come and fit meter and set it up, when you can call over and just pull fuse connect your tails then give us a bell and we’ll come and seal it up”
Iv also spoken to different engineers on call outs to dodgy mains and said what’s your view on pulling fuses and again they all say “we’ve no issues with it check it’s safe to do, pull fuse and crack on, then either seal up or give us a ring and we’ll sort it”
Always had a good ecu with them that includes speaking to people on the phone.
Myself I just pull them, rubber gloves on, load off, pull it do job.
If you're with one of the CPS schemes then SSE (Scottish and Southern) will give you a book of seals an a form to fill in that you then return to them when its full. They then send an engineer out to reseal the fuses (apparently).
Just came across this post so I thought I'd chuck in
As an ex sparks - gave up the bun fight of mostly industrial/commercial installations to make wooden things - I never once blinked when it came to pulling the service fuse when necessary ... and there's been a few!! Back in the day the meter wheel was made of stone.....
One possible solution is for a DNO to authorise an electrician or company to carry out safe isolation of an installation is either to provide some form of course that is nationally recognised or create a system whereby electricians can register for a unique identifier based on the organisation they are registered with i.e. Napit, NICEIC etc etc. In the case of the former, those who pass receive a unique identifier which is provided cast into a stamping tool. They should then provide seals that can be imprinted with the identifier issued to them.
These identifiers should be registered on a database that is accessible by the installers, meter readers and DNOs so that the company who sealed the main incoming service can be identified. In the case of the latter it would basically be the same process, but probably cheaper.
The whole system could be automated with the installer notifying the DNO when an isolation is going to occur, likely duration and other details and the system could then be updated by the installer when the installation is complete as part of the certification process - it could even be added to the certification provided by the installer to the customer on completion.........this can obviously be expanded, but I think an idea for discussion.
Another sound one guys, since I was an apprentice in the 80s electricians have been pulling the cut-out fuse to change boards. There was talk of an incorporated self-connection isolator on the smart meters but that got muted by the meter providers. If Nick's got a consumer unit upgrade the providers are not going to rock up in the morning when he gets there he has to wait for them same when he has completed they will come in their own time.
As for Mark Allison, it is well understated or known about what he has done with Apprentice 121 I can't see how anyone can have any beef with him for going on other podcasts.
Another great pod cast, what a great subject too, I have always pulled the main fuse TBH rather than blow my self to kingdom come.
Now with smart meters they exactly know when you pull the main fuse out. 15 min after some dude turned up asking if someone disconnected the meter and now he needs to change the sim card.
We pull all the time ….. as stated safe isolation
Also all your customers should claim there fine back as it has nothing at all to do with them
5 or 6 years ago one of my customers was on the ball on who can cut and pull the fuse so arranged a day when the dno operator was to call …… British Gas engineer came ….. yes British Gas has a electrical devision ….. but talking with the guy he was gas devision sent as no sparks available not an electrical pulled fuse yet sparks are not
Now yes people pull fuses but my beef is sparks don’t reseal ….we do
Here is how we had pulled for 30 years and never had a problem
Go to your local fishing tackle shop and ask for steal wire crimp kit £15 gives you 1000 reseals wire …steal crimp …. And crimp tool
And you can’t tell the difference with a dno seal.
It is exactly the same
I think there will need to be a part 2 at some point
Thank you. I really like the Monday Club and looking forward to this debate.
VDE Gloves & a helmet with face shield is the PPE I use & do 3ph board changes live.
I done board change recently and pulled the fuse, the Ze was unstable and I notified the DNO. Got a call back how did you upgrade the tails! Pulled the fuse it wasn't tagged. Lad was fine but said careful there's lot young jobsworths will report it.
Avro energy fitted an isolator for £60, was about a year ago
Great podcast as usual.
As for removing the old csu & sticking a bit of twin & earth into the 100A fuse, I've done twice recently where 1 customer had an oxygen machine / mask that couldn't be unplugged for too long & another that insisted that his wife HAD to use the router as she works from home. I know that a bit of 2.5 is not rated at 100A but this is where experience & having a steady hand ( & brain) come into play.
I think the biggest issue is tracing who pulled that fuse. All meter fitters and the DNO get sealing pliers that are tracked to thar company and engineer. If they are stolen they have to be reported to the police. It would be very difficult to issue and track thousands of sealing plier numbers plus make sure that no one is doing dodgy things with them like bypassing the meter. It’s crap really. But I agree with you guys there has to be a better way.
An excellent discussion guys, really really enjoyed the chat. We usually get the home owner to arrange an isolator be fitted. But your right it's a cluster feck that needs sorting.
Ref Nick and Adam coming to work with us. This was the awesome idea of Mr John Bagley. I am a mere middle man ☺️
Matts not gonna get a lot done 😂
South East example, asked energy supplier for Isolator install - 4 months later they told me it'll be £130. Couldn't be bothered with them, so paid Spark £160 to supply and fit, bit over odds, but it's done now. Great podcast/video thingy guys 👍
Hi guys. I am not a sparky but have had electricians as friends for 50 years. Down here in Oxfordshire we are now Scottish and Southern, but used to be Southern Electric Board.
In the days of SEB, electricians always had a bundle of official seals to replace any they had cut. 10 years ago when our puny overhead supply was replaced with a new underground 3 phase feed we left an isolator on the board with tails for the DNO to connect to the new meter. Keep up the great work with the videos and discussion groups, I am working my way through amendment 2, masochism or amusement ? not sure.
Many yrs ago i used to ring the eeb & asked them to remove the main cut out but normally spent soo long on the phone ( sometimes half a day) that nowadays i either pull it my self or if its a smart meter i just remove the tails coming out of said smartmeter.
Great show , when we rewired properties in Yorkshire, YE had a big roll out of installing the DP switches prior to the rewired being carried out so we could isolate the incoming supply. sounds like no other DNO has done this . If a property had no switch and we reported it they would install one in 5 days prior to our work .
Yep we are lucky in the YEDL/Northern Powergrid area. They are usually pretty responsive even today with fuse pulls and isolators. Well in my experience anyway.
The tails from the meter to the CU/DB are the property of the consumer with the fuse as the only means of isolation so yes I would say yes.
You can pull the cut out fuse if your a registered electrician. I worked for a DNO for 18 years and there is a process to follow.
The laws say you must be *competent* to work on electricity. You do not need to be registered with anyone to work on electricity. So a DNO is discriminating against people legally working on electricity. They may find a court of law will go against them.
NICIEC 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😊NAPIT 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣ELEXEA DNO 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣what joke
Remove the fuse if everything is ok ,no problem !!
Welded in fuse due to loose contacts or bitumen bubbling up is a different situation ,can you pull it or does it brake leaving exposed conductors,difficult call . Who then is liable for time customer off supply while the problem is corrected and at who's cost ??
Why they havent fitted isolators when fitting smart meters i have no idea. I bought an isolator and got the meter guy to fit it whilst he was there (he managed to fit it the wrong way round but its there).
As safety trumps everything. Id say yes.
Totally agree with you on that , one of the places I lived at had no seals on the meter or head meter reader took no notice for years !
So pulling a fuse that you are not trained to pull or have suitable training to asses it's condition is safe? The safest thing you can do is get an isolator fitted
Some countries are fitting a switched isolator in lieu of a master fuse for the very reason that sparks needs to be able to isolate post Meter promptly. Here in Australia that seems to be the way it's gone on new builds. It's always been a contentious thing about where does the consumer feed starts. £250+ vat is very expensive probably double what you'd pay in other countries. Surge arrestors were an option on residential boards in my country back in the late 90s but asany consumer appliances have arrestors and voltage clamps built in nowadays.
Robin were subject to a hostile takeover by Fluke. The directors and many of the staff at Robin then went on to found Kewtech
Top answer 💪
Thankyou for the mention this week even though it was under such circumstances
You sir have a open invitation a
I can understand replacing or upgrading the fuse but just pulling it for maintance should be your right or even the customers if they get a consumer unit failure that they can prevent turning into a fire etc.
Kudos to Dave for the background screen saver.
I don't know why haste arnt allowed to fit isolators anymore I work for a DNO and haste work for us if we need to make alterations to anything after the meter and they are authorised to pull fuses to allow them to work safely
I had a 3 phase supply that I got the DNO to pull one time as the main switch fuse was burnt out. The two lads that turned up just said "have you got flash gear (yes) - then pull the fuses, and just reseal it after", even when it was on a 3 phase smart meter. Now UKPN won't fit DP's - has taken ones out that we've already fitted in preparation for CU changes and as a company will fine people - but their engineers often won't bother noting it down and in many cases will actually hand seals to reseal the head because they know you have to work to the EAWR.
As such I will continue to pull the fuse, on occasion I might disconnect from the meter and leave it live - dependant on what meter is fitted dumb/smart. That's within my comfort zone and I'm a few years older than Nick but back when I was taught to change the old Metal re-wireable CU's It was quite common to put a rubber sock over the end of the tails and pull them live. So the tools and methods we now use to make sure we're working safely are much preferable.
Are you saying that UKPN don't allow isolator switches? That seems bizarre.
I was told by western power in the midlands I can’t remove the main fuse - but they won’t do anything about if if you do 😂
Had 😂a western power engineer see main cutout fuse was out..
Said I be 10min having cuppa I didn't see that😂
Put fuseback in when you done doing fuseboard change and I be back in..😂
Years ago it was the LEB. And as long as you phoned them to let them know …it was fine. The last time I pulled one up north the police called. ( yea) the young lad was on a tag. They thought he had done a runner ..
I had it not so long ago with a consumer unit for a housing association property which the main switch had melted on the consumer unit ( plastic dripping) Western Power were called to fit an isolation switch in the meter cabinet, the engineer fitting it said most people just pull the fuse.
Western Power charged over £300.
Wow that is cheap. Looks like WP charged for the switch and gave you free labour.
southern a elec longs if you are registed with napit niceic or eca you can get 5 tempery seals from them and you just havre keep a log
As a sparky in the 70tees and 80tees on rewiring multiple council properties we had to strip back the old tails live and strip back the new tails and twist them together then tape them up ready for the at the time the neeb the local electric authority to turn up weeks later to install the new ones into the meter we did hundreds mad days ☹👍
So what makes it illegal to pull the fuse out? Does anyone know as ny laws or regulations that advise against it's removal
When my smart-meter was installed, they replaced my old isolator with a new 'to standard' isolator - although (under the stairs) it was still a plastic enclosure!
not a consumer unit though :D
A DNO in east London told me I could turn a TNS into a TNCS earthing arrangement because my Ze was non compliant.
You should have got Chris from CJR to join in on this one, he could have discussed how much he pays Pablo to come and do it ! 🤣
I would rather hear from Electricians to be honest.
@@mainlineelectronics5266lol damn
Don’t Tradify have the option to quote & pay deposit on acceptance?
Daves face when nick asked if he wanted the tester. Like a kid in a candy shop haha. Love your vids guys 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
The DNO wanted £250 to fit an isolator for me, no chance. I pull the fuse every time f*#k them, take me to court 🤘🏻
What annoys me more is when the smart meter rollout was happening, it was the perfect opportunity to put an isolator in when it was installed. I asked my person on the day of install to put on one in, he never did! Now I have to pay Western Power how much to fit one? I'd rather just keep the old board if it's going to cost me this much.
No one should be fined, bashed, whatever for taking safe and sensible measures to isolate what they are working on.
OK I have to chime in on the bus bar buzz bar. It's a bus that's also a bar kind of like a bus route or would that be route. but I also love that you called it a buzz bar out there and I think both are acceptable. In the states it's a busbar although our panels it's usually built-in and the breakers plug on in various matters.
My understanding is that if the seals are the old led type with a three digit number on one side and a crown on the other side the are classed as Government seals and it is a criminal offence to remove them, but if they are the new aluminium type with out the crown stamped on them then you can ? As they are not classed as government seals. Also they are readily available from RS comments and even fishing tackle shops . How true that is i’am not sure.
Fantastic show guy’s as always 👍👍👍👍❤️
I may or may not have worked for Western Power (now National Grid) for the past 20 years & totally agree it's a mess.
As far as I can see, each DNO interperets the guidelines differently. Technically, it's correct that only the DNO, supplier's MOP or a small amount of approved electrical firms can pull the fuse. That doesn't mean it makes sense.
There is a safety element but that could be addressed with a training course & certification. There is also an element of the DNO making some easy money from monopolizing the work.
I think the reason the issue never gets resolved is the size of the DNOs. Nobody takes responsibility for dealing with such issues. The frontline staff have to deal with it year after year but management aren't affected, so nothing gets done.
I enquired to WPD to do the isolation course at their training facility in Taunton. A manager said "You can do the course but we will not allow you to become a registered fuse puller as we would have to issue you with a personalised set of sealing pliers. We already have too many authorised people doing this right now". This is how I would perform a safe isolation of the supply in order to replace a DB. Remove all loads and remove supply fuse, wait for all LEDs on the smart meter to extinguish (can take 5 minutes). Remove kWh meter terminal access plate and remove consumer tails, then refit access plate and reinstate supply fuse. Replace DB and then carry out the procedure again to get the tails reconnected. Check supply fuse is suitable rated for the tails and that both screws are torqued up. Print off a label with the fuse rating and place on the cut-out. Re-seal the supply fuse & kWh meter (seals available on eBay). This method means that the smart meter is energised whilst you are replacing the DB and the electric police won't be alerted. If you care to alert WPD that there is a 100A supply fuse but the tails are sized at 16mm2 then you can simply state that there is a printed label on the cut-out and they should investigate, or an purchase an 80A fuse from CEF and do it yourself.
'Old Empire IPA' ... my fave. The beer of common sense and reasoning...
People often say the DNO can "fine" us for this. The wrong - only the police or courts can issue fines. The DNO could start a civil case against an electrician or their business, that's all.
Provided they were incorporated, yes but, a sole trader, no. You’d be arrested & cautioned &/or fined at a magistrates court & have the criminal conviction on your record.
@@jonathanrose456 Nonsense. What is the actual law being broken? Point me to where i legislation this is a criminal matter. It is not. How is the DNO getting evidence unless they were physically present? I can't think of a single instance where the CPP have ever been involved in such a case. At most it is a civil matter and the DNO has no chance of proving it as seals could have been removed by anyone at any time. Safe isolation is a clear defence.
@@AJBTemplar
1. The property belongs to the DNO (including any seals). When you cut the seal you are doing criminal damage to their property.
2. The Utilities Act 2000 Ch.24
@@AJBTemplar
As for evidence… the customer would probably grass you up.
Safe isolation isn’t a defence as PPE is available to do the job safely plus, there is the process where you can contact the DNO to arrange disconnection.
@@AJBTemplar
As the meter, etc., used to belong to the government, it has been given criminal status. I believe the fines are up to £2000 & up to 5 years in prison for tampering with a meter.
I had my DNO fuse pulled recently by my supplier to install an isolator. He was nt a qualified electrician and did nt wear linesman gloves.
Fun one for you: busbar comes from bus in electrical engineering, and it's a shortened form of omnibus, so it should be buss not buzz.
Omnibus bar 😂😂😂
D-Lock Robins 😍
Do they trip A type RCDs?
I work for my local council as a road lighting spark, you have to do a G39 course and safe isolation which allows you to pull DNO cutouts. Why can something like this be put in place for domestic sparks? Or even some kind of DNO authorisation to pull service cutouts in domestic situations.
because they dont want to adopt the risk and would rather just pretend its not happening so they can wash their hands of it if someone gets hurt.
A great example of an daily electricians challenges👍
Sam - great reading.. sorry KNOWLEDGE about the fuse pulling rules..
I cant understand not being able to do it really. As long as you’re competent. Considering I come from an industrial background and have worked on 200-400A busbar chambers, including isolating 1500A electric ovens. Personally I cant see the problem.
I thought you couldn’t include deviations in the regs on new installation work, just on the existing
I fit smart meters for one of the big firms. We’re only told to fit isolators where necessary, as in customer has an old consumer unit and probably will be having it changed, undersized tails 16mm on 100A fuse or VIR etc. If there’s a 100A fuse with 25mm tails from the cutout to meter and onto the consumer unit too most engineers won’t fit one. Don’t know any engineers that remove isolators either, odd
As I was told its your electricity supplier not the dno who would come out to fit a isolator. The dno will not come out to fit an isolator that's sp energy
My thorts on this is I would argue that it is illegal not to provide safe isolation after the meter or even before it. What if the meter started to smoke. I have cut tails close to the CU and installed henley blocks. The from there to the CU as every think after the meter they say is up to the home owner if there is a fault. So I see it they say it is your responsibility. So as you say a smart meter should have the ability to isolate the power. Such as there is for incoming gas and water. Why not power or just let the smart meter if you on a cash top up run out then it is off do the work and top up but that would just be stupid.
It’s simple make sure you’re safe and do whatever it takes to make sure you’re safe
Just watched this great episode. Missing Nick from the Mondays Podcast.
Northern powergrid and British gas last year charged £35 quid to fit a DP isolator. Not sure of the current prices . Only problem is no decent turn around time. All smart meter installs should have come with a isolator built in or external at instal, so was poorly thought out (or not £££) next topic....25mm tails while dno is 16mm
It's £130 northern power grid to come and fit a DP isolator in tyneside or Northumberland
its illegal from the auth point of view but if it sets the place on fire what do you der
Electric installs in France have a 500mA RCBO style breaker set to either 15/30/45/60A. (Single phase installations)
When we work on the install we can always be safe in the knowledge that we can isolate and if the DNO’s breaker trips out, the consumer can reset it themselves.
We don’t have to ring up Deano or Pablo beforehand and arrange 2 mutually convenient appointments to first isolate and then restore. Your DNO’s could have taken the opportunity as Dave has said in the past to install isolators at the same time, but they didn’t. They can of course isolate them remotely, but is anyone going to rely on an electromagnetic relay for which the engineer has no mechanical way of making sure the contacts are not accidentally reenergised?
Isolation course is the best mid way ground I think for you guys vs the DNO, fitting an isolator each time with the hope that in years to come, they are rolled out in the majority of installations.
In Belgium the meterbox has a standard MCB of 40A ( mono phase ) or 25A ( 4pole ) . So we can turn it of whenever we need to . It also trips ofcourse when pulling to much current or making a shor . In verry old installation you sometimes see meltfuses in a sealed meterbox . Don't get why stil 100A melfuses are used and you can not disconnect yourself to work on the installation safely...
Best truthful response : Emergency switching / safety reasons. ?
We havd same issues in the states.customer is responsibility is to the point the utilities wires connect to the customers. Overhead at weather head or if underground customer has to supply wire to 2ndary side of trans former. The meter is owned by the utility.
Prior to smart meters electrician did disconnect and reconnect on all over head services
We were never allowed in the underground or padmount transformers. Different utilities and different authority have different rules. Now with solar metered its more of a mess.
In the end the utility and the authorities could care less about the customer need for power. They cry its safety reasons. Simple answer is give the autority for repairs to licensed contractors thank you
brilliant as always Sam and loving the show notes....
Haha finally someone noticed
@@ELECTRICIANSPODCAST oh yes mate, the Davo Savo one is a belter.
@dses WPD will charge an hours call out to remove the fuse, you then fit own isolator for less than £80. they will sit in van for the time it takes
Well said David, it's the staff (and branch manager) not CEF the company. 🤨
Why isolators can have plastic enclosure ??? How is that meeting regs.. if you get loose connection..
Good point
Why don't they just install th ffing isolator instead all this palaver? The on-site guide has the installation design displayed with an isolation switch
Scottish Power is £150 to fit an isolator.
But if I get a smart meter from my provider it's free.
How does the smart meter installation industry handle this ?
We are authorised under REC (the retail energy code company) previously MOCOPA to work on DNO equipment.
And the smart meter installers know their limits if they see something they don't like they call the DNO
Loved this one guys
The bits starting to sag & tangle in your old age Dave? 😂
Seen you guys pulling fuses but why dont you ever put isolator in for future !!!!!!!!
I remember seeing that Watchdog where the fella “Blessed Electrical” I believe wired the light right off the meter! 🤦🏻♂️🤣
Living on the edge lol
@@ELECTRICIANSPODCAST Ha-Ha proper 🤣 I’m going to shock you, the work was rough as fuck too 🤣
Sam Robin industry’s were based in harrow they rebranded as Robin electronics and relocated to Watford , they rebranded again in early 2000 as kewtech industry and relocated to Chesham . If you look at the Robin KTS 1620 MFT and the Kewtech Kt62 you will see they are one and the same except Robin are yellow the kewtech is grey. The replacement for the kt62 is the KT 63 . Robin are great testers and are still compliant. I have both.
I have this directly from NAPIT
Vulcanworks is an inspector only he only has 2391-52 inspection and testing qualification, nothing more
If you watch any of his videos you will see the quality of his work is questionable at best he has only been in the industry since 2019 . In one of his videos at a vicarage he has installed an outside light directly under the boiler flue and another one under the front porch directly in front of the CCTV camera so now when that light is on it will blind the camera . Watch his videos and judge for your self . There are pictures on his Facebook page that shows this
Top answer
On the condition that you are a qualified and registered electrician AND that you reseal it after your work is complete - pull it. There is an overriding reason for safe isolation.
One of the reasons is that the main fuse will have to have its seal redone, so I don't think the DNO would like to issue there fuse/meter seals to any electrcian , not going to happen
Great episode 😎
Those Testers need a shelf in the unit.
I’d rather pull the fuse than work on live 25mm tails. Fuck that.
I'm working on 95mm at the moment lol
@@ELECTRICIANSPODCAST live??!
The switch I'm going into one side will be live but it's very little danger
@@ELECTRICIANSPODCAST ah ok fair enough… bit different than having live tails flapping about and trying to get them out the DB lol
Better out than in, that’s what I always say
That's hilarious
Show me an electrician that has never pulled that fuse in their life and I'll show you a liar. We've all done it. There really is no procedure. Some DNO operators will tell you to pull it, some will tell you that they will fine you if you so much as look at the fuse the wrong way. There is no evidence that you have touched the fuse, especially if you fit an isolator. Just blame that on another electrician. I've never been in trouble for it since I pulled my first fuse in 2000. I've never even been questioned.
Smart meters are making it harder for electricians to get away with working safely and isolating the supply. Here's an idea to get around that. Pull the fuse, very quickly fit an isolator between the head and the meter and then replace the fuse. When someone comes to investigate, just blame the fuse and isolator on the previous contractor.
So we’ve paid for smart meters through the costs being passed on via the bill which has save the electricity companies £££ as they legally had to replace the meters every x years, why the f… don’t they fit isolators at the same damn time.
To be fair the chap fitting the smart meters for my mum and dad put one in which was nice of him.
Kicked out the ninga group. Oh never mind. That will save a few hours