dont know if its still the case but for the south SSE will let you pull the main fuse if your accredited and you apply to them for temporary seals which are a sticker and you tell them.when any works are complete and they come out and re seal seems like a system others shld follow
Makes sense to me, although pulling the fuse is a risk to anyone without the correct PPE. The smart meter rollout was the perfect opportunity to introduce a means of isolation to older properties. In my case, they removed a Siemens meter with integral isolator and split tail output and put in one that I now have no access to which has the ability to report any 'tampering' should I need to kill the power to my own equipment. Absolute farce, and balls am I paying WPD £218 should I ever want the power off on my own damn tails!
i assume the requiring accreditation part is so that they can be fairly certain your not a monkey who will stick your finger into a broken cut out fuse carier but i agree that DNOs should roll.out installation of isolators anytime they fit replacement meters or have to carry out any work on "their equipment" but lets face it that would affect their already huge profit margin 🤔
@@andrewnorris3278 Their profits vs. Our safety is what it comes down to, and it stinks. The fact WPD squashed Haste from offering the service at a reasonable rate so they had the monopoly on the thing says it all.
@@dsesuk yep the excuse that they didnt want haste touching the main cut out without their instruction would be acceptable if for them to do the same thing wasnt nearly 3 times the price
Hi David, just wanted to say, thank you for sharing your expertise on the testing side of things. I’ve recently started a new job carrying out EICRs for a social housing company, and have found your videos to be extremely helpful for improving my own style of testing, as well as getting a better understanding of how to fill out and interpret the certification. I don’t think I would’ve had the confidence I have now before I started watching you, so thanks again!
David just want to say you and your videos are far from boring, if there was more sparks like you and with your knowledge the industry would be a lot safer. Keep the videos coming mate your a joy to watch and learn from. Thank you
without doubt along with john ward one of most detailed youtubers in his explanations, very informative video, think il watch more of your vidoes going forward cheers !
I once booked EDF to pull the main fuse for me and to replace it (had to make 2 appointments). They use 5 hour slots, 7-12 and 12-5, the 1st guy turned up at 11.50 to pull it and the 2nd guy turned up at 12.30 to put it back! Love the video, great to hear some common sense.
Yes, WPD told me they could do a fuse pull at a cheaper rate than their eye-watering isolator price, but who wants to hang around waiting for two separate engineers to turn up? It's an absolute lottery, and nonsense like you experienced then happens!
@@dsesuk I fully agree with your views on DNOs and isolators, and enjoyed your rant, having muttered the same myself many times ! For my next board change I've bought myself an isolator from Screwfix for fifteen quid, and I'm going to get WPD to come out and disconnect, I'll put the switch in whilst he does his paperwork, then he can reconnect five minutes later. I can't see how they can object to that and I can change the board at leisure then...
Once again fantastic information here. Being some one who has just completed the latest test and inspect course. I find your informative videos better then any course I've undertaken. Just wanted to say big ups to you. 🤘
Great job mate believe or not you keep me sane is this industry and appreciate all your videos. Re:Flexi tails, did a job in the south west, off-peak consumer unit, customers arranged for EDF to visit the next day (which they did), however they refused to connect the flexi tails to their equipment saying only standard tails were allowed, ffs.
Not a sparky but bought up in that world so I keep an interest. What an excellent video David. VERY informative. Thanks for taking the time to make it and well done in explaining everything.
Thoroughly comprehensive vid David as usual, your in-depth delve into the spur off the ring regulations was enlightening, you learn something new every day. My biggest issue is how can I explain to my wife that i've just watched a 1hr 20 minute video of someone changing a fuse-board.... 🤣Long live DSES 👍
Hi David, As a working spark myself, I agree with you regards the fuse pulling chestnut. it' been going on for years ! Maybe the NICEIC should get involved ? We all pay now a substantial sum (just to work domestically) They should lobby that if an isolator is not supplied by the supply company we are in our rights to pull fuses for obvious safety reasons. Love your channel and enjoy it the most when you're giving it the big one! All the best Steve Kearslake (Happy Lectrics Southampton)
Agreed on 20A radials wherever possible, splitting kitchen up a bit to have for instance just "kitchen worktop" as one circuit keeping other non-worktop sockets with downstairs, and another circuit for just washing machine/dishwasher which are often prime suspects in the RCD tripping game so best separated for that purpose anyway!
Regarding pulling DNO fuses...The recent replacement of millIons of meters with smart meters was the perfect opportunity for the DNO’s to cheaply provide the consumer/sparky with a means of isolation and solve this ridiculous situation. The fact that, for the most part, they have chosen not to do this, means that every electrician not only has the right, but also the god given duty to de-seal all the DNO equipment and pull the fuse in order to teach those tosspot DNO’s a lesson. Just don’t video it and don’t admit it. Simples.
The reason a spur can be connected directly at the 30A CU fuse, just like any other part of the ring is that it does already have overload protection at 20A or so - being a spur it can feed the maximum of one double socket - which although could be fused at 2 x 13A it would generally be less than that.
433.2.2 allows that the overload device can be anywhere along the circuit, so you have fault current protection via the 30A fuse at the CU (subject to low enough Zs) and overload protection via the FCU/Socket (actually within the plug[s]) at the other end. If it feeds more than one socket/FCU then it isn’t a spur and must be a radial, in which case it would need a separate 20A CU fuse as the multiple 13A fuses at each FCU/Socket could total more than the 20A cable rating 433.1.204 does not contradict 433.1.1 as the 30A CU fuse is NOT the device providing overload protection to the spurs, it is the fuses within the FCU/plugs that provides the overload protection. Therefore a spur at the CU isn't C2 or C3 or anything other than compliant; however in your case here as it feeds more than one outlet it isn't a spur at all - and is a full radial circuit, which does not therefore have overload protection, and you would be correct in C2 - overload protection not provided
> The reason a spur can be connected directly at the 30A CU fuse, just like any other part of the ring is that it does already have overload protection at 20A or so - being a spur it can feed the maximum of one double socket - which although could be fused at 2 x 13A it would generally be less than that. Some proper safety there. "I mean, it could fry the cable in normal operation, but it probably won't". Bonkers.
@@Karreth plugging 2x 13amp heaters into a double socket spur is not “normal operation”, (even that wouldn’t draw a constant 26amps for very long as they have thermostats these days). Something like 2x kettles boiling at the same time would make the 2.5mm toasty but you’d not install a spur in a kitchen like that, they’re for odd extra lighting sockets. If installed like that it should probably only have a single outlet socket tbh, not sure if that’s implied anywhere in the regulation.
I live in south Manchester. I recently had a isolation switch fitted so in the future I can have my consumer unit upgraded. I contacted my energy supplier to arrange the work which they did, with a charge of £50. The engineer was from the utility company Morrisons. I thought it was a reasonable charge for the work
Hi. I really admire your sense of humor and educational value of your uploads. I am sparky with few years of service with c&g2394and95. I am many many times so confused doing eicr and kind of upset nobody prepared me for this. I am doing my best to improve my knowledge but when watching you I finaly understand. Its not my fault its rubbish education. And you with so many years of experience still confused. Put your self in to position other sparks trying their best during 1.5h time given by their bosses to do satisfactory EICR and do 6 of them per day somtimes in different locations.
I buy grommet strip from TLC - it's wide enough for all CU's I've fitted so far (MK, Contactum, Wylex & Fusebox). Keep up the good with with the content David, as a fellow domestic spark I find the videos incredibly informative 👍
Another great video. I sent my landlord your EICR videos after he had my home checked. On the morning of the visit we moved all furniture to ensure that clear access to every socket/accessory was possible while the alarm bells rang that three properties were scheduled for the same day with one being 40 miles away. The 'electrician' sat outside in the van for an hour, spent 40 minutes in the house only taking the front of the consumer unit off, turning the power off for a minute and not removing a single accessory then sat in the van for another hour before fucking off. He then rushed back to report back about the plastic consumer unit that had been fine with no alterations or additions for 14 years which prompted me to recall your videos tacking that very subject. As you quite rightly say do the job right or get out of the game.
Was nodding off but woke up when you commented on the ring final, and the underrated current carrying capacity of the 2.5mm ² inserted with the ring at the 30/32A protective device . Agree with your comments and views ENTIRELY.
Excellent 👍🏼 I think the main reason for the ring still be installed is purely the length you can get from a ring. You are limited with length with radials. The OCPD can be rated at 30 or 32 for a spur from the origin because the max you should be able to draw, would be 26A. Also the OCPD can be rated higher than the cable if it is a fixed load, such as shower subject to all loop readings.
Don't forget though Patrick that it isn't just design current we need to consider. If that 'spur' cable is buried in a wall for some distance, a short of some resistance caused by, say, a nail or screw penetration could cause a high fault current which may exceed the CCC of the cable. A 30/32A device can happily pass that current which the cable cannot handle.
David, I see what your saying, but fault current isn’t CCC, fault current should only be for short duration, so shouldn’t effect the cable & can be calculated. Thermal withstand, I think.
Hi Yes I double checked it is the thermal withstand calculation, so for example if you had a 32A cooker circuit in a domestic installation. 6mm from the D.B & the cable supplying the hob is 4mm & the cable supplying the oven (Rated at 2.3kw) is 1.5mm. They are both supplied from a dual outlet cooker plate. Overload from the oven is impossible, So that is a 1.5mm cable on a 32A C.B. As long as there is short circuit current which you would measure at the oven above 160A. Then the OCPD will operate with the required time, you can also check this with the thermal withstand calculation, you could also check the adiabatic if you wanted to.
@@dsesuk As is often spoken in various forums you may or may not lurk in ... every day is a school day. We can all learn from each other. It's for that reason I follow you. Not the laurel and hardy antics with Mr Marsh, nope, not at all...
I feel your grommet strip pain. I recently started using a product I found on amazon, search for ‘door edge strip’ ...... about £7 for 10m....... but it never comes off. You will cream your pants. Enjoy you vids. Keep it up.
Reg: 433.3 does allow you to omit overload current when it’s a fixed load that’s unlikely to overload . So maybe a 8.5kw shower on 6mm with a 40A or 50A mcb or 2.5mm flex on the back of an oven that’s feed from a 32A mcb with 6mm as long as the oven is not rated over the 2.5mm CCC
Mitre bond for securing the grommet strip. Maybe the IET should look at removing ring final circuits from the blue book, the only circuit that can be broken in 3 places and still function without the consumer knowing, rather than them banging on about AFDD's.
I've heard rumours that ring final circuits are to be removed in the 19th edition but that might've been wishful thinking. Affter all, it was only a TH-cam comment.
Mitre bond. Use it for nearly everything else and i am glad someone thinks it is okay on grommet strips that have a bad habit of moving and being a real faff
Gr8 video, always learn loads when watching. As for you dislike of ring circuits, completely agree. My partners property in Spain (Alora ) is all radial circuits running of 20 amp/16amp/6amp mcb with RCD protection. In turn run in flexible conduit plastered in the walls and in each room there is an access point if any problems occur. Ok I hate the Shoku socket, the dam earth spring always get bent back , but you can still just about plug it in, let alone the issue of potential reverse polarity with British goods. If we ever have a rewire in the uk, I would stick to radials, dam it maybe 6mm just for a workout and deep back boxes, either way broken ring circuits are potentially very dangerous and not always obvious. Anyway that's enough of my own waffling, back to the vid with a cuppa 👍
David, I so enjoy your videos. Your so funny and make this so enjoyable. What a mess and poor workmanship on that house. I bet you could scream sometimes. Keep up the excellent work. John
Ok last comment I promise! A trick I pulled for my own property, in which the old tails were 25mm and good condition, was to ask them to just come and cut the power for 5min. I put an isolator in place ready to receive the tails before they arrived, soon as power was off I cut the tails, terminated into the supply side of the isolator, and put that half of the isolator cover on (the new 100A wylex isolator is designed such that you can remove the load side cover while the rest is still locked in place). Power back on and off they sod. Only cost me about £15 for a nice compact isolator. Of course only useful if you have something to crack on with while waiting for them to turn up.
Good if you can get away with it Matt. I do wonder how flexible their appointments are though. I suspect most people would just get a "we'll turn up sometime between 12:00 and 18:00" response.
As a DIY'er (boo..hisss!), got to say that is shonkey stuff. We are not all like that though. I have done a fair bit of remedial work on my house electrics to bring it up to standard, but still more lurking no doubt under spider infested floors. Love the vids!
A bit of T&E makes a good grommet strip slice it open on its side remove conductors & cut vertical cuts on the opposite side every few mil which enables it to form any shape.👍
Enjoy your video, must admit l wouldn't like think to how many Wylex consumer units l have fitted over the years as a sparks! This was in part due to the fact that they were the best and ready available at the time. Totally agree on all your raised subject issues especially the one on ring circuits, always prefereed radials myself. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Just had an isolator fitted in Lancashire. NorthWest power said it wasn't their responsibility, nor would they re-seal the cut out afterward, even if I paid, but out energy supplier is Utility Warehouse. Gave them a ring, no probs £60.00 and was done the week afterward. Can't fault them at all.
Really good point about the Spur jumped on the ring circuit at the board, makes sense to me now that it should be a C2, either put it on its own circuit breaker or down rate the ring circuit breaker to a 20A or 16A
Top vid Dave very informative. My last couple of Fusebox boards came with grommet strip which is really good! AND once it's on its solid. I too have been stung in the past on the 2000m roll of grommet strip that CEF sell that's always slightly too big!
Spurring off, on an EICR you can call it C3 at the DB on a bunched circuit if for example it's a fixed load that is lower than the rated capacity of the cable in question so hence will not overload and wouldn't require overload protection, it will only required fault protection.
I have always understood the reg regarding spur from the over current device would only be for a socket under or near the board and only for one twin socket. Not for supply a few sockets remote from the dB
Entertaining as ever Dave. This another clip that shows that companies are churning out guys to make a quick buck rather than earning a living and Top class sparky's ( You can include yourself ) are losing out on work due to cheap cowboys/companies out there making you look expensive when really you are not for the work you do.
On one unoccupied site the dno replaced the service head cos of a hole in the side of the original one. They put a nice new chipboard backing board up, which meant they needed to remove the meter. Then they refused to re-connect the meter because it ‘wasn’t our equipment,mate’. (It wasn’t your equipment when you removed it, and you didn’t mention this problem an hour ago when you offered to replace the wood....) So, 3 weeks later, when the supplier arrived to install a meter, I made sure there was no CU on the wall, so he had no choice but to terminate the consumer tails in a DP isolator I had screwed to the wall. 👍
I'm a DIYer but I had 17th Edition, Part P and Inspection & Testing exams and a calibrated KT64. I got a free isolator done by British Gas in Essex 2011 and free one done by npower in Wales in 2018.
It's a lottery depending on your DNO/suppler. Some won't charge, others will. Some make it simple to arrange, others have you passed around an offshore call centre.
Great Video David! If it's waffle, I quite like it! I've been procrastinating with picking up the Spark's Mate route since I last worked in the industry in 2012. Took redundancy this year from my last job. As mentioned elsewhere, the information is detailed backed up by Regs and logic. Also, living in Birmingham (although it's a bit posher than where you were) I couldn't stop laughing at that video & the sound effects!! Bloody True too!!
Person doing the report is probably thinking ... I'll take the money for doing the EICR ... THEN, I'll make shed loads coming back to fix it all. It's all about the money, money, money and obviously very little to do with quality! Glad you got the job David, at least it'll be done properly now.
You make some valid points. The DNO is a big issue, I’ve had customers who have managed to get the isolator fitted for free, some where they have been arses. EICR well again obviously not taking sufficient time to carry it out properly or suitably qualified. I do a lot of new builds lately and the standard of them amazes me they get signed off. If ever you get to old for the tools, you’d make a cracking teacher at a collage,
David Savery Electrical Services hahaha no couldn’t see you in one either, but the way you explain this stuff and the ref numbers is very good and easy to follow, even with a bellyfull of booze like I was last night lol
That's a really good question, why do those smart meters not include a physical switch to cut the power, and separate unsealed terminations for the load? On the subject of putting the right PIN into the smart meter to turn the power off, "Device with semiconductors" (ie. electronic switching) is not valid as a means of safe isolation according to table 537.4. While supply equipment does not fall under BS7671 according to 110.2(i), not sure whether you could safely rely on that.
Commenting here from South Africa. Our regs have there origin in the British Standards but over the years have moved closer to the International stuff. We have a condition on our Regs (Sans 10142-1 if you ever want to have a peak at it) that our plug sockets which are rated at 16amp each (using the old big fat round pin plugs also left overs from some British reg) that the complete circuit cant supply more than 5kw which on our 230v mains circuit gives you just over 20amp. Perfect for the 2.5mm cable most plugs are wired with. Some much much older houses do have 30 amp rings but due to it being before any form of our current regs (came into effect as law in 93 if I am correct) some people see it as reasonably safe. The cables of the circuit is usually 4mm but the problem lies in the fact that our plug tops are not fused at all. Nice little bang or fire waiting to happen.
Very informative David, you don't need to buy grommet strip, I make it myself outer sheath of twin & earth ,cut slots with cutters bend round knock out & small amount of glue job done been doing this for years.
I’ve moved to 4mm radials too. Ring circuits are shite! Look at Efixx on loading of rings and the way loads are potentially distributed. A ring can still be overloaded. Another ace vid! So glad you survived the well from hell to make this 😂😂😂
No arc fault detection a c3 . Cannot believe they’ve coded that - wonder what remedial’s they’d propose should the customer have said yes. I would only mention SPD as a C3 should the supply be an overhead TT supply . Great video as usual David
Whilst I see the point about the protective device is higher rated than the cable on the spur off the circuit origin, functionally it's identical to a spur taken off of any other point in the ring. If the problem exists for the spur taken at the circuit origin, then the same problem is present everywhere. It really makes no difference where the spur runs from. I should add that what a lot of people don't realise is that twins sockets aren't even rated for the full 26A that might be pulled. They only have to withstand 20A for a sustained period (I can't recall exactly - it may be about 30 minutes). Of course, there's nothing actually stopping somebody plugging to 3 kW devices into a dual socket on a spur thereby overloading both the cable and the socket. Incidentally, the reason why high current circuits were introduced and then multiplied with one upstairs and the other downstairs is back in the days before central heating was common and many families used to use electric heaters. There is now no real need for this, although I am a big fan of high current circuits in places like kitchens and utility rooms as 20A radials are a nuisance, even if they are multiple, as it's damned inconvenient to have to try and make sure washing machines, toasters, electric kettles, microwaves and the like are balanced across circuits. nb. one safety thing in favour of rings is if there's a break in the CPE, something that can happen on a radial. If it happens on a radial, any outlets downstream of the break will continue to work, but without any indication of the failed CPE. At least with a ring that scenario is unlikely due to two CPE paths.
26:50 I'm still learning about fusing for fixed appliances. My understanding is that FCUs are to protect the fixed wiring, and the protection of the appliance is not our business. I don't know what the requirements are for manufacturers of such appliances, but I've always assumed that it's their responsibility to provide adequate fusing, thermal cut-out etc within the appliance.
A good point old sport, the fuses are there to protect the cables... well, at least on the fixed wiring. I'm not so sure on the appliances themselves, I think the fuse protects more than just the flex, although I may be wrong. Internal fuses can (and often are) employed as you say, but I suspect the manufacturer of these appliances would have stated a localised fuse be present, and the expectation would be that this kit hangs off a FCU rather than being spliced directly into the 30A ring. On an EICR, can I guarantee the way these items is installed is safe? No. And nobody with any common sense would install it in this way.
Hi David I am the DIY man , but to history now if i need an electrician although I agree I have done a spur only when it is very close say to an existing socket or a spur that will be protected by a fused switched socket anything else then I call in John my sparky, the other point is dont call the plumber, plasterer etc I totally 100% agree with all you say !! but be careful with the Brummy/Black country accent !!**
Hi David, you talked about PPE for pulling fuses. Just wondering what you use? I've seen vde gloves, do you use a standard visor or a welding helmet to mitigate arc flash?
My opinion on the pendant in the shower room. Sure, technically it can be there based on the zones etc. But......the room is very small. Yes it has a fan, and a window, but doesn’t mean to say either will be open or on while the shower is in use. Therefore, consideration should be given to the environment that will exist while hot showers are being had, and the level of humidity that will be left behind after. Selection of equipment should be made with this in mind. Light fittings in high humidity locations must be suitable. Reg 132.5.1 covers this. Method of installation is covered in section 522 which further adds weight to why I would certainly not install a bayonet light fitting in a shower room the size of a shoe box, regardless whether it is outside of zones or not. Can you guarantee there is no potential danger if the bayonet, it’s 2 pin connections and the lamp are not all a little moist from condensation. Can you guarantee that the light will remain dry? And if you can not guarantee that the light will remain dry, wouldn’t it be an idea to install a sealed unit? It sounds extreme..... but I have found many eroded light fittings in bathrooms that purely based on zone measurements did not need to be of a certain IP rating. They still had evidence of water ingress though. Bottom line, zones are one consideration. Environment is another. Steam doesn’t really stay within the zones....it has a naughty tendency to wander around the whole room! 😂
As well as installing either sealed units or IP rated spotlights an extractor fan is a must IMHO in a tiny bathroom. Mould growth on the ceiling etc is a nightmare to deal with, leaving a door open just spreads the issue around the property. The hardest part is core drilling the flipping hole for extractor outlet :/
I know right? been here for the whole video and still in the comments now :). Good relaxation after a week from hell (ever had the engine fall out of your van? I don't recommend)
Come on now Dave every spark knows its a lamp, not a bulb 😂, and I wasn't bored in the slightest, re-isolators, why aren't the cps's, the eca, the iet, the JIB etc lobbying parliament to put it into law that isolators are fitted, if they did this one thing for sparks this surely should be it also what's your opinion on the light in the bathroom, home/office skirts were permitted in bathrooms up to the 16th I think and if we don't apply regs retrospectively then could be deemed as a no code as it complied then, minor I know when compared to the fan on a 40a circuit and possibly no fusing down on the heater, just interested in your thoughts... and Chipmunk no I have not had an engine fall out but I've had a few blow outs and gear boxes go so I feel for you, never mind its the weekend and things can be mended 👍
Totally agree with the spur of the 30amp circuit, to me its a nono as heaters can be plugged in and overload I present. Personally there's other ways to do spurs 😎
I had a clash with an electrician from Swalec about putting the isolator in. He said they wouldn't do it at all, and that I'm a moron for even asking. 20 minutes on the phone with the customer service later, he was re-booked to come back in three days to do the very job. His face was priceless. They did it for free, as an update to the existing installation, but getting trough was a bit of a hassle, plus they have checked my payment history before committing, so I don't know if it's something they do normally.
That's the ballache, and who needs it? If I want an argument, I'll go tell the wife why she can't have a new bathroom rather than try to navigate through an offshore call centre.
Thoroughly enjoyed that one old chap. With you on the spur out the ring, one way I've dealt with this in the past is just to change it for a 20. I hate pulling the fuses, what also annoys me on top of there not being an isolator is that they never write what fuse is actually inside, you get the 100amp sticker on the front which is just a max capacity and tells you nothing, you open it up and there is a 60 inside. Why do we have to write the fuse size on a cert when we don't even know, unless I explicitly see a sticker I'm just going to put Lim.
I agree Oli, I've no idea why the fuse isn't explicitly identified and I too end up writing LIM all the time on my paperwork. It makes a joke of maximum demand as someone asks for a car charger or electric shower, yet you've no idea what the installation can supposedly supply without breaking a seal to get into the thing.
@@dsesuk Whats strange about all this is that this trade has been going for so long and the problem seems so simple. Politics!!!, Usually it works so well but....
DNOs are a right pain.! I had a call recently from a customer who is planning to have major works done at their home and they need the main head moved. They called the DNO and they said due to Covid they won’t come out to site so ask your local electrician to relocate the head 😂🤦♂️
Obviously I’m a good bit behind your lovely videos but I would agree about your rant on local isolation. It would appear by not providing a point of isolation we can use or threatening legal action for using the fuse, either the DNO or the energy provider are not conforming to EaWR regulation 12!
Great vid as always David. I think we all know that EICR as you say was not actually performed by a fully competent electrician/test engineer...merely a lacky from afar who is probably tasked to do 8 a day while the QS sits in the pub awaiting said mug to arrive with some scribble on a piece of paper for him to tart up and hand over a couple of notes in return. Good that you ripped the report a new hole like it should!! This is where the Scheme providers need to take their heads out of their backsides along with the DNO’s and sort their shit out!
This is also why new-builds are so cack; the wiring is often pulled in and terminated by apprentices and labourers while the company QS signs it all off and, presumably, when NIC come a-calling they have the 'showhome' to take them around (the one safe-bet property they did truly oversee for themselves).
@@dsesuk see my comment to Steve Harris for my experience of new build shite. Found 3+e with the sheath pulled off for 30cm where someone had encountered resistance and just YANKED... in the same property as the hideous BT feckup. But it's all covered by the NHBC guarantee right? *dies laughing*
Dave my only issue with that board you installed in is there no blanks between rcbos. Supposedly they get very hot🤣. Quality video Dave. Watched it right through. Cheers for sharing. Hope you used a torque screwdriver😘
I use an Armeg torque screwdriver Andrew. As for spacing between RCBO's, I've not seen anything in instructions from any manufacturer about leaving a fuseway open between circuits, nor have I experienced any RCBO's overheating post installation. If that was a requirement, I'd expect manufacturers to supply units with fuseways spaced so that overheating cannot happen. So long as they're spaced with a busbar that allows circuits to be neighboured, then it's not for me to second-guess how they should be laid out.
Sorry to disagree with you mate but throughout my 50 year career as a JIB approved Industrial electrician I have wired ringmains throughout my career in industrial and commercial contracts I have never wired a ringmain in anything less than 4mm and of course we wire to customers specs , I appreciate that you are talking about domestic properties which I understand but in my commercial and industrial world we continue to wire more ringmains than radials when wiring socket outlet circuits , so in my world the electrical designers and the clients still prefer ringmains(I refuse to use the bs wording of final ring circuit) sorry , I will use the word cpc only because I'm not willing to hurt the powers that be feelings, anyway keep doing a great job , I love your mixture of comedy and serious conversation while explaining the ins and outs of the domestic world of crazy electrics, I only worked for a domestic electrical company for 2 years and I got out because of the boys he employed to run jobs when they hadn't even passed their am2 exam yet , also working in and around the general public on electrical circuits when they are plainly not qualified to do so , so I slid away from that chaos and back to my own world of sanity
Rather than fitting a Henley block, why not fit a Wylex REC2 (only a tenner on Ebay) - existing tails in the bottom, new tails in the top to the new CU. Now you have fixed the problem and introduced safe isolation for the next person as well...
It was the weekend, I was out of area and I lacked a DP isolator on the van. I now carry one as a stock item to ensure I'm not caught out again as this would be a preferable option over the Henley block.
@@dsesuk Excellent answer ... amusing as with all of your other videos... Love your "no shit, Sherlock" approach ... if you venture into Worcestershire some time I will buy you a beer!. Keep up the fekking good work!
I had the same with western power as I had old service head and wanted an isolator fitted they said no and would cost was £175 + vat in the end I took photo of service head and it needed changing anyway and when the came to fit new service head I bought isolator cost £18 and they fitted it for me so now I can change my old consumer unit when I want safely
Brilliant video Dave, I think you should have a catchy theme tune to your videos, a bit like the sponsor music!! We should start a campaign to lobby parliament to make dno’s retro fit isolators in the consumers tails in older properties. I’m sick of the grey area and the red tape surrounding this issue. Rant over!
I fall under the western power area- British Gas are booked in next week to fit an isolator for free- “as I’ve got a smart meter” as the nice chap on the phone said 👍
If you have a spare way at the CU fine, but if not there’s no reason to differentiate between connecting a spur at a local s/o or within the CU? Just seems trendy to dis rings at the moment but they’ve served us well for 50 years and safer now as you are limited to one spur per ring s/o
It’s amazing how many installations we go to which are ‘dangerous’ and therefore under safety we have no choice but to pull the main fuse to protect us and the customer 😏 and western power are quite happy for us to tell them and they pop along and re seal.. sometime..
Hi David. I am a subscriber and I love your videos. Thought I would add some info regarding isolation switches. I contacted my supplier SSE a while back andasked if they could fit a switch. OK they said, how much I said, FOC they said, it was arranged for about 5weeks later, and indeed it was fitted just a week ago FOC. John Barber (ex TV engineer 40 tears and then serious Pat Tester {no, not label jockey} 20 years, now retired.
Thanks for showing us that email. I've tried contacting them myself regarding precisely this issue but never had any response. Been of particular interest since I had a few of their SPD boards lined up with the SPD straight off the main switch for jobs that got cancelled/postponed due to covid and wondered if I should be fitting mcbs into them now. Interestingly on my last NICEIC inspection I was told there was no need to use 6mm, a 2.5mm would do for the connection. Can't help myself though, makes me cringe putting a single 2.5 into a 32A so 6mm it is!
I must admit, on my manor house job I'd had a board in stock for some months that predated the supplied MCB for the SPD, so I retrofitted one anyway. It seems to be to be better to have than not if you have fuseways enough to accommodate it.
Great video, again! Regarding the SPD now requiring connection via Live to a 32A MCB, what's to stop you putting it into a 32 or even 40 RCBO serving a circuit, as an option to be efficient with your ways?
What’s your view on the cp Fusebox flying earth lead for the lid ? To me it’s too short as the kid is flapping around in front of the devices and wiring when you remove the lid ...maybe superfluous ? Also I’m not sure on the tail clamp it’s a bit of a faff you get on but good when it’s fitted ...I’ve found that it’s best to split the orange plastic clamp into two halves much easier to fit especially with non flexible tails
I'm not convinced on any flying lead for a metal CU cover Marco. If the manufacturer instructions state the power should be off when the cover is removed, then why require me to earth it? It's my outlook if I choose to ignore those instructions; their arse is covered. For me, it's extra fiddle and it gets in my way.
David isn’t the issue that the lid is an extraneous conductive part therefore needs to be earthed ? i.e. the lid is painted/powder coated and the contact of the 2 screws that hold it to the rest of the CU can’t be relied on - a bit like earthing a metal light switch plate. But I haven’t seen any other domestic single phase CU applied with a flying earth lead
It's almost as if these rules and regulations are in place not to protect the consumer from chancers or the risk of fire or other malfunction, nor to protect jobbing sparks, but rather to flog overpriced equipment and protect monopolies.
For the 30A fuse with 3 conductors. If it is purely a spur (Being defined as only serving one single or one double socket) not a radial then that socket can only draw a maximum of 26amps (2x 13A). It is exactly the same situation if you spur off any socket, you have a 2.5mm cable with a rating of 27A connected to a 30A or 32A protective device which you accept is fine. Obviously if that spur is in fact a radial (not a spur protected by a fcu) which would serve multiple socket outlets then it would break the rules. I know it seems totally counter intuitive but it is exactly the same argument about using 20A double pole isolators on a kitchen ring circuit, you have a 20A isolator on a 32A circuit, however as long as that isolator is feeding only one single socket then the maximum load can only be 13A so is fine. Effectively the two plug fuses at 13A each are protecting the cable in a spur. Just to note also in amendment 2 they are talking about requiring AFDD, at £250 a circuit breaker we might see installers going back to having less circuits so even for the hardiest of Ring final haters they might be converted back to ring final circuits.
Good thought on the AFDD requirement forcing people back to rings. I have a feeling this might go the way of 'earth rod for everything' in the 18th original suggestion... "not gonna work, rethink this"
I accept that point Steve, but the problem I have with it is when the 'spur' is serving a distant point with cabling buried in the fabric of the building. Yes, under normal load conditions, the plugtop fuses protect it, but what happens when Joe Homeowner knocks a nail in the wall and causes a near short? The fault current that can pass may then be too high for the cable, but the protective device can pass it and not meet the disconnection time. As for AFDD's, you can perhaps expect a rant on that in the coming days!
20-amp radials for the bedroom, hmmm, in the USA mostly 15-amp unless large bedroom and voltage drop is an issue then 20-amp. With LEDs and ubiquity of low voltage devices I am sure that will be overkill soon. Of course by then we will all be on our own power generation as well.
As this one was site-unseen and some distance from home, I turned up with an array of RCBO's to cover the task.16/20 Amp ought to suffice for a 2.5mm radial where cooking/room heating loads aren't expected. That said, by the end of 2020 we'll probably all be cooking tins of beans over a naked flame.
isn't an unfused spur only allowed 1 socket? as this spur hasn't been fused down multiple sockets are a no no. some of those other ir's a bit low for my liking as well, total ir is below 2meg
If you look up the definition of a circuit in BS7671, its one circuit. Nothing wrong with piggy backing off an OCPD, its no different than spurring or junctioning anywhere else on a circuit, and so much better than a hidden JB. Fair enough if the terminal is too small, but its ONE circuit on that fuse, not two. As for the ring vs radial discussion, they all have their place and are all useful. You say what happens if a RFC breaks and the 27A cable is over loaded. But what happens in your 4mm 32A radial if the cpc goes open circuit? or you run it in containment or in insulation, or the length of run is too long for Vd and Zs?
I made it a condition of having a smart meter installed to have an isolator switch fitted by my supplier (Eon) at the same time. This they did at the height of Covid in May. They fitted a Proteus isolator in an Eon branded enclosure. No fee whatsoever. Your mileage may vary I guess.
Well, that's the issue; if you know what to ask for and you insist upon it *and* if your energy provider is open to that request then you might get it for free just so they can tick you off the smart meter to-do list.
Just been quoted £231.42 by Western Power to put in a 2 pole isolator. As they are running a monopoly and governed by Ofgem I will try and complain but don't hold much hope. Just out of interest how long a job would it be for installing an isolator switch? An hour? Love the Video and thanks Dave for doing these it helps us mugs know what to look out for and keep us safe..
@@dsesuk Just a quick update after some googling and also mentioned by the nice lady at Western Power I got Octopus on it and yesterday I had an isolator switch fitted FOC. Quick turnaround from Octopus so if anyone else needs one maybe talk to the energy supplier? Now I can try and find a decent sparky to put in a new CU.
In regards to surge protection if the consumer unit is prior to 18th edition its N/A. If it is 18th edition and has a relevent risk assessment its N/A, if not its C3. Thats what I have been recording anyway.
Thanks for uploading,interesting video.I am sure that 4mm 30amp radials on rewireable fuses are not permitted but as you have pointed out,it is allowed to have 2.5mm cable on a 30 amp rewireable,seems ridiculous doesn't it
Great as always don’t code spd or afdd. Quality advert makes it bearable, especially when you rant about TH-cam putting theirs in 😉 Totally agree about pulling fuses, seeing as safe isolation is such a hot topic
Thanks Simon. And safe isolation shouldn't be a topic at all of course. It should be a no-brainer for those of us out in the world just trying to do what we have to do.
dont know if its still the case but for the south SSE will let you pull the main fuse if your accredited and you apply to them for temporary seals which are a sticker and you tell them.when any works are complete and they come out and re seal
seems like a system others shld follow
Makes sense to me, although pulling the fuse is a risk to anyone without the correct PPE. The smart meter rollout was the perfect opportunity to introduce a means of isolation to older properties. In my case, they removed a Siemens meter with integral isolator and split tail output and put in one that I now have no access to which has the ability to report any 'tampering' should I need to kill the power to my own equipment. Absolute farce, and balls am I paying WPD £218 should I ever want the power off on my own damn tails!
i assume the requiring accreditation part is so that they can be fairly certain your not a monkey who will stick your finger into a broken cut out fuse carier but i agree that DNOs should roll.out installation of isolators anytime they fit replacement meters or have to carry out any work on "their equipment" but lets face it that would affect their already huge profit margin 🤔
@@andrewnorris3278 Their profits vs. Our safety is what it comes down to, and it stinks. The fact WPD squashed Haste from offering the service at a reasonable rate so they had the monopoly on the thing says it all.
@@dsesuk yep the excuse that they didnt want haste touching the main cut out without their instruction would be acceptable if for them to do the same thing wasnt nearly 3 times the price
@@dsesuk indeed if its a DNO only there should be regulation to keep the cost to reasonable levels
Hi David, just wanted to say, thank you for sharing your expertise on the testing side of things. I’ve recently started a new job carrying out EICRs for a social housing company, and have found your videos to be extremely helpful for improving my own style of testing, as well as getting a better understanding of how to fill out and interpret the certification. I don’t think I would’ve had the confidence I have now before I started watching you, so thanks again!
I'm glad this nonsense is of use to someone Kaine.
David just want to say you and your videos are far from boring, if there was more sparks like you and with your knowledge the industry would be a lot safer. Keep the videos coming mate your a joy to watch and learn from. Thank you
Cheers Sean.
without doubt along with john ward one of most detailed youtubers in his explanations, very informative video, think il watch more of your vidoes going forward cheers !
Thanks Matthew, I appreciate that comment.
Be careful if the delicate ears of children or wife are around though 😉
I once booked EDF to pull the main fuse for me and to replace it (had to make 2 appointments). They use 5 hour slots, 7-12 and 12-5, the 1st guy turned up at 11.50 to pull it and the 2nd guy turned up at 12.30 to put it back!
Love the video, great to hear some common sense.
Yes, WPD told me they could do a fuse pull at a cheaper rate than their eye-watering isolator price, but who wants to hang around waiting for two separate engineers to turn up? It's an absolute lottery, and nonsense like you experienced then happens!
@@dsesuk I fully agree with your views on DNOs and isolators, and enjoyed your rant, having muttered the same myself many times ! For my next board change I've bought myself an isolator from Screwfix for fifteen quid, and I'm going to get WPD to come out and disconnect, I'll put the switch in whilst he does his paperwork, then he can reconnect five minutes later. I can't see how they can object to that and I can change the board at leisure then...
Once again fantastic information here. Being some one who has just completed the latest test and inspect course. I find your informative videos better then any course I've undertaken. Just
wanted to say big ups to you. 🤘
Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad something here was useful!
Great job mate believe or not you keep me sane is this industry and appreciate all your videos. Re:Flexi tails, did a job in the south west, off-peak consumer unit, customers arranged for EDF to visit the next day (which they did), however they refused to connect the flexi tails to their equipment saying only standard tails were allowed, ffs.
Not a sparky but bought up in that world so I keep an interest. What an excellent video David. VERY informative. Thanks for taking the time to make it and well done in explaining everything.
Thoroughly comprehensive vid David as usual, your in-depth delve into the spur off the ring regulations was enlightening, you learn something new every day. My biggest issue is how can I explain to my wife that i've just watched a 1hr 20 minute video of someone changing a fuse-board.... 🤣Long live DSES 👍
Hi David, As a working spark myself, I agree with you regards the fuse pulling chestnut. it' been going on for years ! Maybe the NICEIC should get involved ? We all pay now a substantial sum (just to work domestically) They should lobby that if an isolator is not supplied by the supply company we are in our rights to pull fuses for obvious safety reasons.
Love your channel and enjoy it the most when you're giving it the big one!
All the best
Steve Kearslake (Happy Lectrics Southampton)
Agreed on 20A radials wherever possible, splitting kitchen up a bit to have for instance just "kitchen worktop" as one circuit keeping other non-worktop sockets with downstairs, and another circuit for just washing machine/dishwasher which are often prime suspects in the RCD tripping game so best separated for that purpose anyway!
Regarding pulling DNO fuses...The recent replacement of millIons of meters with smart meters was the perfect opportunity for the DNO’s to cheaply provide the consumer/sparky with a means of isolation and solve this ridiculous situation.
The fact that, for the most part, they have chosen not to do this, means that every electrician not only has the right, but also the god given duty to de-seal all the DNO equipment and pull the fuse in order to teach those tosspot DNO’s a lesson.
Just don’t video it and don’t admit it. Simples.
The reason a spur can be connected directly at the 30A CU fuse, just like any other part of the ring is that it does already have overload protection at 20A or so - being a spur it can feed the maximum of one double socket - which although could be fused at 2 x 13A it would generally be less than that.
433.2.2 allows that the overload device can be anywhere along the circuit, so you have fault current protection via the 30A fuse at the CU (subject to low enough Zs) and overload protection via the FCU/Socket (actually within the plug[s]) at the other end.
If it feeds more than one socket/FCU then it isn’t a spur and must be a radial, in which case it would need a separate 20A CU fuse
as the multiple 13A fuses at each FCU/Socket could total more than the 20A cable rating
433.1.204 does not contradict 433.1.1 as the 30A CU fuse is NOT the device providing overload protection to the spurs, it is the fuses within the FCU/plugs that provides the overload protection.
Therefore a spur at the CU isn't C2 or C3 or anything other than compliant; however in your case here as it feeds more than one outlet it isn't a spur at all - and is a full radial circuit, which does not therefore have overload protection, and you would be correct in C2 - overload protection not provided
> The reason a spur can be connected directly at the 30A CU fuse, just like any other part of the ring is that it does already have overload protection at 20A or so - being a spur it can feed the maximum of one double socket - which although could be fused at 2 x 13A it would generally be less than that.
Some proper safety there. "I mean, it could fry the cable in normal operation, but it probably won't". Bonkers.
@@Karreth plugging 2x 13amp heaters into a double socket spur is not “normal operation”, (even that wouldn’t draw a constant 26amps for very long as they have thermostats these days). Something like 2x kettles boiling at the same time would make the 2.5mm toasty but you’d not install a spur in a kitchen like that, they’re for odd extra lighting sockets. If installed like that it should probably only have a single outlet socket tbh, not sure if that’s implied anywhere in the regulation.
Honestly, your "waffly" vids are very educational. I really enjoy getting different views on every day observations.
I live in south Manchester. I recently had a isolation switch fitted so in the future I can have my consumer unit upgraded. I contacted my energy supplier to arrange the work which they did, with a charge of £50. The engineer was from the utility company Morrisons. I thought it was a reasonable charge for the work
Loved the catchy tune for the sponsor, if only everyone went to that much effort 😆😆😆
It'll be in your head for days that one.
It's stuck in my head 🤣😂😭
Hi. I really admire your sense of humor and educational value of your uploads. I am sparky with few years of service with c&g2394and95. I am many many times so confused doing eicr and kind of upset nobody prepared me for this. I am doing my best to improve my knowledge but when watching you I finaly understand. Its not my fault its rubbish education. And you with so many years of experience still confused. Put your self in to position other sparks trying their best during 1.5h time given by their bosses to do satisfactory EICR and do 6 of them per day somtimes in different locations.
I buy grommet strip from TLC - it's wide enough for all CU's I've fitted so far (MK, Contactum, Wylex & Fusebox). Keep up the good with with the content David, as a fellow domestic spark I find the videos incredibly informative 👍
Another great video. I sent my landlord your EICR videos after he had my home checked.
On the morning of the visit we moved all furniture to ensure that clear access to every socket/accessory was possible while the alarm bells rang that three properties were scheduled for the same day with one being 40 miles away.
The 'electrician' sat outside in the van for an hour, spent 40 minutes in the house only taking the front of the consumer unit off, turning the power off for a minute and not removing a single accessory then sat in the van for another hour before fucking off.
He then rushed back to report back about the plastic consumer unit that had been fine with no alterations or additions for 14 years which prompted me to recall your videos tacking that very subject.
As you quite rightly say do the job right or get out of the game.
Unfortunately, I suspect he's having an easier day and making more money than I am too.
@@dsesuk Till he goes to court... [i can dream]
Was nodding off but woke up when you commented on the ring final, and the underrated current carrying capacity of the 2.5mm ² inserted with the ring at the 30/32A protective device . Agree with your comments and views ENTIRELY.
Excellent 👍🏼 I think the main reason for the ring still be installed is purely the length you can get from a ring. You are limited with length with radials. The OCPD can be rated at 30 or 32 for a spur from the origin because the max you should be able to draw, would be 26A. Also the OCPD can be rated higher than the cable if it is a fixed load, such as shower subject to all loop readings.
Don't forget though Patrick that it isn't just design current we need to consider. If that 'spur' cable is buried in a wall for some distance, a short of some resistance caused by, say, a nail or screw penetration could cause a high fault current which may exceed the CCC of the cable. A 30/32A device can happily pass that current which the cable cannot handle.
David, I see what your saying, but fault current isn’t CCC, fault current should only be for short duration, so shouldn’t effect the cable & can be calculated. Thermal withstand, I think.
technically 13A. Double sockets are ALWAYS rated '13A'.. the manufacturer would use that as a getout clause if it melted with 7A on each side...
@@PJB71 The word adiabatic is trickling my cerebrum... i like the feeling ;)
Hi Yes I double checked it is the thermal withstand calculation, so for example if you had a 32A cooker circuit in a domestic installation. 6mm from the D.B & the cable supplying the hob is 4mm & the cable supplying the oven (Rated at 2.3kw) is 1.5mm. They are both supplied from a dual outlet cooker plate. Overload from the oven is impossible, So that is a 1.5mm cable on a 32A C.B. As long as there is short circuit current which you would measure at the oven above 160A. Then the OCPD will operate with the required time, you can also check this with the thermal withstand calculation, you could also check the adiabatic if you wanted to.
This was great content. A lot of effort and massively informative. Your the guy who finds everybody else the answers.
Kind words, but really I spout shite and rely upon these comments to put me right!
@@dsesuk As is often spoken in various forums you may or may not lurk in ... every day is a school day. We can all learn from each other. It's for that reason I follow you. Not the laurel and hardy antics with Mr Marsh, nope, not at all...
I feel your grommet strip pain.
I recently started using a product I found on amazon, search for ‘door edge strip’ ...... about £7 for 10m....... but it never comes off.
You will cream your pants.
Enjoy you vids.
Keep it up.
We have a few rolls of that on the van and I never knew where we got it from or what its actual use was. Great product works a treat
Reg: 433.3 does allow you to omit overload current when it’s a fixed load that’s unlikely to overload . So maybe a 8.5kw shower on 6mm with a 40A or 50A mcb or 2.5mm flex on the back of an oven that’s feed from a 32A mcb with 6mm as long as the oven is not rated over the 2.5mm CCC
Mitre bond for securing the grommet strip.
Maybe the IET should look at removing ring final circuits from the blue book, the only circuit that can be broken in 3 places and still function without the consumer knowing, rather than them banging on about AFDD's.
I've heard rumours that ring final circuits are to be removed in the 19th edition but that might've been wishful thinking. Affter all, it was only a TH-cam comment.
@@Ragnar8504 chance would be a fine thing.
Mitre bond. Use it for nearly everything else and i am glad someone thinks it is okay on grommet strips that have a bad habit of moving and being a real faff
Gr8 video, always learn loads when watching. As for you dislike of ring circuits, completely agree. My partners property in Spain (Alora ) is all radial circuits running of 20 amp/16amp/6amp mcb with RCD protection. In turn run in flexible conduit plastered in the walls and in each room there is an access point if any problems occur. Ok I hate the Shoku socket, the dam earth spring always get bent back , but you can still just about plug it in, let alone the issue of potential reverse polarity with British goods. If we ever have a rewire in the uk, I would stick to radials, dam it maybe 6mm just for a workout and deep back boxes, either way broken ring circuits are potentially very dangerous and not always obvious. Anyway that's enough of my own waffling, back to the vid with a cuppa 👍
David, I so enjoy your videos. Your so funny and make this so enjoyable. What a mess and poor workmanship on that house. I bet you could scream sometimes. Keep up the excellent work. John
Ok last comment I promise! A trick I pulled for my own property, in which the old tails were 25mm and good condition, was to ask them to just come and cut the power for 5min.
I put an isolator in place ready to receive the tails before they arrived, soon as power was off I cut the tails, terminated into the supply side of the isolator, and put that half of the isolator cover on (the new 100A wylex isolator is designed such that you can remove the load side cover while the rest is still locked in place). Power back on and off they sod. Only cost me about £15 for a nice compact isolator.
Of course only useful if you have something to crack on with while waiting for them to turn up.
Good if you can get away with it Matt. I do wonder how flexible their appointments are though. I suspect most people would just get a "we'll turn up sometime between 12:00 and 18:00" response.
As a DIY'er (boo..hisss!), got to say that is shonkey stuff. We are not all like that though. I have done a fair bit of remedial work on my house electrics to bring it up to standard, but still more lurking no doubt under spider infested floors. Love the vids!
Not all DIYers are bad. Hell a lot of electricians started out doing DIY as teenagers before going the college route :)
Every so often, a special DIY'er climbs out of the pit and ascends to the ethereal realm of the electrician.
A bit of T&E makes a good grommet strip slice it open on its side remove conductors & cut vertical cuts on the opposite side every few mil which enables it to form any shape.👍
Great work and great video. One point in addition to roasting and salting nuts, I would suggest chocolate coating as another option 👍
Enjoy your video, must admit l wouldn't like think to how many Wylex consumer units l have fitted over the years as a sparks! This was in part due to the fact that they were the best and ready available at the time. Totally agree on all your raised subject issues especially the one on ring circuits, always prefereed radials myself. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Thanks Gareth!
Just had an isolator fitted in Lancashire. NorthWest power said it wasn't their responsibility, nor would they re-seal the cut out afterward, even if I paid, but out energy supplier is Utility Warehouse. Gave them a ring, no probs £60.00 and was done the week afterward. Can't fault them at all.
Please dont hold it against me, but I am a plumber and wish I had chosen Electrics your vids are so informative and amusing keep them coming
Really good point about the Spur jumped on the ring circuit at the board, makes sense to me now that it should be a C2, either put it on its own circuit breaker or down rate the ring circuit breaker to a 20A or 16A
Although, as someone pointed out to me, Appendix 15 actually permits an unfused spur to be from the origin. What a wacky world.
Mr S. as an NI native, your f you was pretty good!
Good to know I have one convincing talent.
Top vid Dave very informative. My last couple of Fusebox boards came with grommet strip which is really good! AND once it's on its solid. I too have been stung in the past on the 2000m roll of grommet strip that CEF sell that's always slightly too big!
Good to hear Jonathan, thanks for the update!
Spurring off, on an EICR you can call it C3 at the DB on a bunched circuit if for example it's a fixed load that is lower than the rated capacity of the cable in question so hence will not overload and wouldn't require overload protection, it will only required fault protection.
I have always understood the reg regarding spur from the over current device would only be for a socket under or near the board and only for one twin socket. Not for supply a few sockets remote from the dB
That's my take on it too Evan. A spur is a point local to where you're tapping off, not a way to serve a new extension on the other side of the house!
Entertaining as ever Dave. This another clip that shows that companies are churning out guys to make a quick buck rather than earning a living and Top class sparky's ( You can include yourself ) are losing out on work due to cheap cowboys/companies out there making you look expensive when really you are not for the work you do.
On one unoccupied site the dno replaced the service head cos of a hole in the side of the original one. They put a nice new chipboard backing board up, which meant they needed to remove the meter. Then they refused to re-connect the meter because it ‘wasn’t our equipment,mate’. (It wasn’t your equipment when you removed it, and you didn’t mention this problem an hour ago when you offered to replace the wood....)
So, 3 weeks later, when the supplier arrived to install a meter, I made sure there was no CU on the wall, so he had no choice but to terminate the consumer tails in a DP isolator I had screwed to the wall. 👍
Very impressive. Needs to be more electricians like yourself who can assess installations correctly like this.
I'm a DIYer but I had 17th Edition, Part P and Inspection & Testing exams and a calibrated KT64. I got a free isolator done by British Gas in Essex 2011 and free one done by npower in Wales in 2018.
It's a lottery depending on your DNO/suppler. Some won't charge, others will. Some make it simple to arrange, others have you passed around an offshore call centre.
Great video David you communicate yourself very well 👍🏻 very refreshing
Great Video David! If it's waffle, I quite like it! I've been procrastinating with picking up the Spark's Mate route since I last worked in the industry in 2012. Took redundancy this year from my last job. As mentioned elsewhere, the information is detailed backed up by Regs and logic. Also, living in Birmingham (although it's a bit posher than where you were) I couldn't stop laughing at that video & the sound effects!! Bloody True too!!
Thanks Andrew. I hope the new career works out!
Person doing the report is probably thinking ... I'll take the money for doing the EICR ... THEN, I'll make shed loads coming back to fix it all. It's all about the money, money, money and obviously very little to do with quality! Glad you got the job David, at least it'll be done properly now.
You make some valid points. The DNO is a big issue, I’ve had customers who have managed to get the isolator fitted for free, some where they have been arses.
EICR well again obviously not taking sufficient time to carry it out properly or suitably qualified.
I do a lot of new builds lately and the standard of them amazes me they get signed off.
If ever you get to old for the tools, you’d make a cracking teacher at a collage,
I don't think I'm the sort for tweed jackets and leather elbow patches Gary!
David Savery Electrical Services hahaha no couldn’t see you in one either, but the way you explain this stuff and the ref numbers is very good and easy to follow, even with a bellyfull of booze like I was last night lol
That's a really good question, why do those smart meters not include a physical switch to cut the power, and separate unsealed terminations for the load? On the subject of putting the right PIN into the smart meter to turn the power off, "Device with semiconductors" (ie. electronic switching) is not valid as a means of safe isolation according to table 537.4. While supply equipment does not fall under BS7671 according to 110.2(i), not sure whether you could safely rely on that.
Commenting here from South Africa. Our regs have there origin in the British Standards but over the years have moved closer to the International stuff. We have a condition on our Regs (Sans 10142-1 if you ever want to have a peak at it) that our plug sockets which are rated at 16amp each (using the old big fat round pin plugs also left overs from some British reg) that the complete circuit cant supply more than 5kw which on our 230v mains circuit gives you just over 20amp. Perfect for the 2.5mm cable most plugs are wired with. Some much much older houses do have 30 amp rings but due to it being before any form of our current regs (came into effect as law in 93 if I am correct) some people see it as reasonably safe. The cables of the circuit is usually 4mm but the problem lies in the fact that our plug tops are not fused at all. Nice little bang or fire waiting to happen.
Very informative David, you don't need to buy grommet strip, I make it myself outer sheath of twin & earth ,cut slots with cutters bend round knock out & small amount of glue job done been doing this for years.
I’ve moved to 4mm radials too. Ring circuits are shite! Look at Efixx on loading of rings and the way loads are potentially distributed. A ring can still be overloaded. Another ace vid! So glad you survived the well from hell to make this 😂😂😂
Still, I'd prefer the CPC in 4mm to be larger than 1.5 - just doesn't seem right.
David Savery Electrical Services Absolutely!
Great video and i totally agree with you on the subject of the spur merged into the ring main
No arc fault detection a c3 . Cannot believe they’ve coded that - wonder what remedial’s they’d propose should the customer have said yes. I would only mention SPD as a C3 should the supply be an overhead TT supply . Great video as usual David
SPD's I get, but AFDD's... well... yeah.
Whilst I see the point about the protective device is higher rated than the cable on the spur off the circuit origin, functionally it's identical to a spur taken off of any other point in the ring. If the problem exists for the spur taken at the circuit origin, then the same problem is present everywhere. It really makes no difference where the spur runs from.
I should add that what a lot of people don't realise is that twins sockets aren't even rated for the full 26A that might be pulled. They only have to withstand 20A for a sustained period (I can't recall exactly - it may be about 30 minutes). Of course, there's nothing actually stopping somebody plugging to 3 kW devices into a dual socket on a spur thereby overloading both the cable and the socket.
Incidentally, the reason why high current circuits were introduced and then multiplied with one upstairs and the other downstairs is back in the days before central heating was common and many families used to use electric heaters. There is now no real need for this, although I am a big fan of high current circuits in places like kitchens and utility rooms as 20A radials are a nuisance, even if they are multiple, as it's damned inconvenient to have to try and make sure washing machines, toasters, electric kettles, microwaves and the like are balanced across circuits.
nb. one safety thing in favour of rings is if there's a break in the CPE, something that can happen on a radial. If it happens on a radial, any outlets downstream of the break will continue to work, but without any indication of the failed CPE. At least with a ring that scenario is unlikely due to two CPE paths.
Fantastic video David. Spot on as always.
I thank you sir.
26:50
I'm still learning about fusing for fixed appliances. My understanding is that FCUs are to protect the fixed wiring, and the protection of the appliance is not our business. I don't know what the requirements are for manufacturers of such appliances, but I've always assumed that it's their responsibility to provide adequate fusing, thermal cut-out etc within the appliance.
A good point old sport, the fuses are there to protect the cables... well, at least on the fixed wiring. I'm not so sure on the appliances themselves, I think the fuse protects more than just the flex, although I may be wrong. Internal fuses can (and often are) employed as you say, but I suspect the manufacturer of these appliances would have stated a localised fuse be present, and the expectation would be that this kit hangs off a FCU rather than being spliced directly into the 30A ring. On an EICR, can I guarantee the way these items is installed is safe? No. And nobody with any common sense would install it in this way.
Hi David
I am the DIY man , but to history now if i need an electrician although I agree I have done a spur only when it is very close say to an existing socket or a spur that will be protected by a fused switched socket anything else then I call in John my sparky, the other point is dont call the plumber, plasterer etc
I totally 100% agree with all you say !! but be careful with the Brummy/Black country accent !!**
Hi David, you talked about PPE for pulling fuses. Just wondering what you use? I've seen vde gloves, do you use a standard visor or a welding helmet to mitigate arc flash?
My opinion on the pendant in the shower room.
Sure, technically it can be there based on the zones etc. But......the room is very small. Yes it has a fan, and a window, but doesn’t mean to say either will be open or on while the shower is in use. Therefore, consideration should be given to the environment that will exist while hot showers are being had, and the level of humidity that will be left behind after.
Selection of equipment should be made with this in mind. Light fittings in high humidity locations must be suitable. Reg 132.5.1 covers this. Method of installation is covered in section 522 which further adds weight to why I would certainly not install a bayonet light fitting in a shower room the size of a shoe box, regardless whether it is outside of zones or not.
Can you guarantee there is no potential danger if the bayonet, it’s 2 pin connections and the lamp are not all a little moist from condensation. Can you guarantee that the light will remain dry? And if you can not guarantee that the light will remain dry, wouldn’t it be an idea to install a sealed unit?
It sounds extreme..... but I have found many eroded light fittings in bathrooms that purely based on zone measurements did not need to be of a certain IP rating. They still had evidence of water ingress though. Bottom line, zones are one consideration. Environment is another. Steam doesn’t really stay within the zones....it has a naughty tendency to wander around the whole room! 😂
As well as installing either sealed units or IP rated spotlights an extractor fan is a must IMHO in a tiny bathroom. Mould growth on the ceiling etc is a nightmare to deal with, leaving a door open just spreads the issue around the property. The hardest part is core drilling the flipping hole for extractor outlet :/
Right not watched it yet, but I just had a big grin when I saw this had been posted, brightens up a dull Friday night 😁
Pretty sure it'll dull your already dull Friday night Ray. I hope you have an old 100W light-bulb handy.
I know right? been here for the whole video and still in the comments now :). Good relaxation after a week from hell (ever had the engine fall out of your van? I don't recommend)
Come on now Dave every spark knows its a lamp, not a bulb 😂, and I wasn't bored in the slightest, re-isolators, why aren't the cps's, the eca, the iet, the JIB etc lobbying parliament to put it into law that isolators are fitted, if they did this one thing for sparks this surely should be it also what's your opinion on the light in the bathroom, home/office skirts were permitted in bathrooms up to the 16th I think and if we don't apply regs retrospectively then could be deemed as a no code as it complied then, minor I know when compared to the fan on a 40a circuit and possibly no fusing down on the heater, just interested in your thoughts... and Chipmunk no I have not had an engine fall out but I've had a few blow outs and gear boxes go so I feel for you, never mind its the weekend and things can be mended 👍
Totally agree with the spur of the 30amp circuit, to me its a nono as heaters can be plugged in and overload I present. Personally there's other ways to do spurs 😎
Deffo agree about the CU OCD lot... neat and functional is all that’s needed!
Enjoyed this, Good rant about DNO knobjugglers and dodgy testing
I had a clash with an electrician from Swalec about putting the isolator in. He said they wouldn't do it at all, and that I'm a moron for even asking.
20 minutes on the phone with the customer service later, he was re-booked to come back in three days to do the very job. His face was priceless.
They did it for free, as an update to the existing installation, but getting trough was a bit of a hassle, plus they have checked my payment history before committing, so I don't know if it's something they do normally.
That's the ballache, and who needs it? If I want an argument, I'll go tell the wife why she can't have a new bathroom rather than try to navigate through an offshore call centre.
As a Black Country man I applaud your accent it was 👍
Thoroughly enjoyed that one old chap.
With you on the spur out the ring, one way I've dealt with this in the past is just to change it for a 20.
I hate pulling the fuses, what also annoys me on top of there not being an isolator is that they never write what fuse is actually inside, you get the 100amp sticker on the front which is just a max capacity and tells you nothing, you open it up and there is a 60 inside. Why do we have to write the fuse size on a cert when we don't even know, unless I explicitly see a sticker I'm just going to put Lim.
I agree Oli, I've no idea why the fuse isn't explicitly identified and I too end up writing LIM all the time on my paperwork. It makes a joke of maximum demand as someone asks for a car charger or electric shower, yet you've no idea what the installation can supposedly supply without breaking a seal to get into the thing.
@@dsesuk Whats strange about all this is that this trade has been going for so long and the problem seems so simple. Politics!!!, Usually it works so well but....
DNOs are a right pain.! I had a call recently from a customer who is planning to have major works done at their home and they need the main head moved. They called the DNO and they said due to Covid they won’t come out to site so ask your local electrician to relocate the head 😂🤦♂️
Obviously I’m a good bit behind your lovely videos but I would agree about your rant on local isolation. It would appear by not providing a point of isolation we can use or threatening legal action for using the fuse, either the DNO or the energy provider are not conforming to EaWR regulation 12!
Great vid as always David. I think we all know that EICR as you say was not actually performed by a fully competent electrician/test engineer...merely a lacky from afar who is probably tasked to do 8 a day while the QS sits in the pub awaiting said mug to arrive with some scribble on a piece of paper for him to tart up and hand over a couple of notes in return. Good that you ripped the report a new hole like it should!! This is where the Scheme providers need to take their heads out of their backsides along with the DNO’s and sort their shit out!
This is also why new-builds are so cack; the wiring is often pulled in and terminated by apprentices and labourers while the company QS signs it all off and, presumably, when NIC come a-calling they have the 'showhome' to take them around (the one safe-bet property they did truly oversee for themselves).
@@dsesuk see my comment to Steve Harris for my experience of new build shite. Found 3+e with the sheath pulled off for 30cm where someone had encountered resistance and just YANKED... in the same property as the hideous BT feckup. But it's all covered by the NHBC guarantee right?
*dies laughing*
Radials the way to go.
Even with derating
Power circuits 2.5mm2 20A
Lighting 1.5mm2 10A
Cooker 4mm2 32A permanent wired
RCBOs for all others.
Dave my only issue with that board you installed in is there no blanks between rcbos. Supposedly they get very hot🤣. Quality video Dave. Watched it right through. Cheers for sharing. Hope you used a torque screwdriver😘
I use an Armeg torque screwdriver Andrew. As for spacing between RCBO's, I've not seen anything in instructions from any manufacturer about leaving a fuseway open between circuits, nor have I experienced any RCBO's overheating post installation. If that was a requirement, I'd expect manufacturers to supply units with fuseways spaced so that overheating cannot happen. So long as they're spaced with a busbar that allows circuits to be neighboured, then it's not for me to second-guess how they should be laid out.
Sorry to disagree with you mate but throughout my 50 year career as a JIB approved Industrial electrician I have wired ringmains throughout my career in industrial and commercial contracts I have never wired a ringmain in anything less than 4mm and of course we wire to customers specs , I appreciate that you are talking about domestic properties which I understand but in my commercial and industrial world we continue to wire more ringmains than radials when wiring socket outlet circuits , so in my world the electrical designers and the clients still prefer ringmains(I refuse to use the bs wording of final ring circuit) sorry , I will use the word cpc only because I'm not willing to hurt the powers that be feelings, anyway keep doing a great job , I love your mixture of comedy and serious conversation while explaining the ins and outs of the domestic world of crazy electrics, I only worked for a domestic electrical company for 2 years and I got out because of the boys he employed to run jobs when they hadn't even passed their am2 exam yet , also working in and around the general public on electrical circuits when they are plainly not qualified to do so , so I slid away from that chaos and back to my own world of sanity
Rather than fitting a Henley block, why not fit a Wylex REC2 (only a tenner on Ebay) - existing tails in the bottom, new tails in the top to the new CU. Now you have fixed the problem and introduced safe isolation for the next person as well...
It was the weekend, I was out of area and I lacked a DP isolator on the van. I now carry one as a stock item to ensure I'm not caught out again as this would be a preferable option over the Henley block.
@@dsesuk Excellent answer ... amusing as with all of your other videos...
Love your "no shit, Sherlock" approach ... if you venture into Worcestershire some time I will buy you a beer!. Keep up the fekking good work!
I had the same with western power as I had old service head and wanted an isolator fitted they said no and would cost was £175 + vat in the end I took photo of service head and it needed changing anyway and when the came to fit new service head I bought isolator cost £18 and they fitted it for me so now I can change my old consumer unit when I want safely
Brilliant video Dave, I think you should have a catchy theme tune to your videos, a bit like the sponsor music!!
We should start a campaign to lobby parliament to make dno’s retro fit isolators in the consumers tails in older properties. I’m sick of the grey area and the red tape surrounding this issue. Rant over!
I fall under the western power area- British Gas are booked in next week to fit an isolator for free- “as I’ve got a smart meter” as the nice chap on the phone said 👍
In Ireland the ESB smart meters have a isolator built into the consumer side of the meter seems like a logical idea
The way it should be Craig, and why this country lacks the same common sense I don't know.
If you have a spare way at the CU fine, but if not there’s no reason to differentiate between connecting a spur at a local s/o or within the CU? Just seems trendy to dis rings at the moment but they’ve served us well for 50 years and safer now as you are limited to one spur per ring s/o
Ps I never cut seals they are always cut before I arrive 🤔
It’s amazing how many installations we go to which are ‘dangerous’ and therefore under safety we have no choice but to pull the main fuse to protect us and the customer 😏 and western power are quite happy for us to tell them and they pop along and re seal.. sometime..
Why is it Artisan Electrics can pull and re-seal fuses and you can't? What are thy doing special? Different area?
Fuses were never in plugs in the round pin days, although the plugs ( and sockets ), did come in 3 different sizes to suite the load of the appliance.
Didn’t have rings in them crazy days.
@@AndyK.1 Fortunately back then all I did was plug things in to the electric if I had permission from parents, no idea how the house was wired :)
why are the tails to smart meter in red and black after smart meter install ?
Hi David. I am a subscriber and I love your videos. Thought I would add some info regarding isolation switches. I contacted my supplier SSE a while back andasked if they could fit a switch. OK they said, how much I said, FOC they said, it was arranged for about 5weeks later, and indeed it was fitted just a week ago FOC. John Barber (ex TV engineer 40 tears and then serious Pat Tester {no, not label jockey} 20 years, now retired.
Hi Dave, try heavy duty grommet strip from Edmundons.. It will blow your mind!
Thanks for showing us that email. I've tried contacting them myself regarding precisely this issue but never had any response. Been of particular interest since I had a few of their SPD boards lined up with the SPD straight off the main switch for jobs that got cancelled/postponed due to covid and wondered if I should be fitting mcbs into them now.
Interestingly on my last NICEIC inspection I was told there was no need to use 6mm, a 2.5mm would do for the connection. Can't help myself though, makes me cringe putting a single 2.5 into a 32A so 6mm it is!
I must admit, on my manor house job I'd had a board in stock for some months that predated the supplied MCB for the SPD, so I retrofitted one anyway. It seems to be to be better to have than not if you have fuseways enough to accommodate it.
Great video, again! Regarding the SPD now requiring connection via Live to a 32A MCB, what's to stop you putting it into a 32 or even 40 RCBO serving a circuit, as an option to be efficient with your ways?
What’s your view on the cp Fusebox flying earth lead for the lid ? To me it’s too short as the kid is flapping around in front of the devices and wiring when you remove the lid ...maybe superfluous ? Also I’m not sure on the tail clamp it’s a bit of a faff you get on but good when it’s fitted ...I’ve found that it’s best to split the orange plastic clamp into two halves much easier to fit especially with non flexible tails
I'm not convinced on any flying lead for a metal CU cover Marco. If the manufacturer instructions state the power should be off when the cover is removed, then why require me to earth it? It's my outlook if I choose to ignore those instructions; their arse is covered. For me, it's extra fiddle and it gets in my way.
David isn’t the issue that the lid is an extraneous conductive part therefore needs to be earthed ? i.e. the lid is painted/powder coated and the contact of the 2 screws that hold it to the rest of the CU can’t be relied on - a bit like earthing a metal light switch plate. But I haven’t seen any other domestic single phase CU applied with a flying earth lead
I use two pack superglue and activator to keep the grommet strip on. Pain in the arse stuff.
Oh to go back to plastic boards. I miss the Schneider Easy9 insulated enclosure!
Good show chap 👍 Obviously a lot of effort on your part.
It's almost as if these rules and regulations are in place not to protect the consumer from chancers or the risk of fire or other malfunction, nor to protect jobbing sparks, but rather to flog overpriced equipment and protect monopolies.
For the 30A fuse with 3 conductors. If it is purely a spur (Being defined as only serving one single or one double socket) not a radial then that socket can only draw a maximum of 26amps (2x 13A). It is exactly the same situation if you spur off any socket, you have a 2.5mm cable with a rating of 27A connected to a 30A or 32A protective device which you accept is fine.
Obviously if that spur is in fact a radial (not a spur protected by a fcu) which would serve multiple socket outlets then it would break the rules. I know it seems totally counter intuitive but it is exactly the same argument about using 20A double pole isolators on a kitchen ring circuit, you have a 20A isolator on a 32A circuit, however as long as that isolator is feeding only one single socket then the maximum load can only be 13A so is fine.
Effectively the two plug fuses at 13A each are protecting the cable in a spur.
Just to note also in amendment 2 they are talking about requiring AFDD, at £250 a circuit breaker we might see installers going back to having less circuits so even for the hardiest of Ring final haters they might be converted back to ring final circuits.
Good thought on the AFDD requirement forcing people back to rings. I have a feeling this might go the way of 'earth rod for everything' in the 18th original suggestion... "not gonna work, rethink this"
I accept that point Steve, but the problem I have with it is when the 'spur' is serving a distant point with cabling buried in the fabric of the building. Yes, under normal load conditions, the plugtop fuses protect it, but what happens when Joe Homeowner knocks a nail in the wall and causes a near short? The fault current that can pass may then be too high for the cable, but the protective device can pass it and not meet the disconnection time. As for AFDD's, you can perhaps expect a rant on that in the coming days!
20-amp radials for the bedroom, hmmm, in the USA mostly 15-amp unless large bedroom and voltage drop is an issue then 20-amp. With LEDs and ubiquity of low voltage devices I am sure that will be overkill soon. Of course by then we will all be on our own power generation as well.
He was talking about 20A for the whole upstairs. 4-5 bedrooms
As this one was site-unseen and some distance from home, I turned up with an array of RCBO's to cover the task.16/20 Amp ought to suffice for a 2.5mm radial where cooking/room heating loads aren't expected. That said, by the end of 2020 we'll probably all be cooking tins of beans over a naked flame.
@@dsesuk But there will be a BS Standard for that as well that we will all have to follow :D
isn't an unfused spur only allowed 1 socket? as this spur hasn't been fused down multiple sockets are a no no. some of those other ir's a bit low for my liking as well, total ir is below 2meg
If you look up the definition of a circuit in BS7671, its one circuit. Nothing wrong with piggy backing off an OCPD, its no different than spurring or junctioning anywhere else on a circuit, and so much better than a hidden JB. Fair enough if the terminal is too small, but its ONE circuit on that fuse, not two.
As for the ring vs radial discussion, they all have their place and are all useful. You say what happens if a RFC breaks and the 27A cable is over loaded. But what happens in your 4mm 32A radial if the cpc goes open circuit? or you run it in containment or in insulation, or the length of run is too long for Vd and Zs?
I made it a condition of having a smart meter installed to have an isolator switch fitted by my supplier (Eon) at the same time. This they did at the height of Covid in May. They fitted a Proteus isolator in an Eon branded enclosure. No fee whatsoever. Your mileage may vary I guess.
Well, that's the issue; if you know what to ask for and you insist upon it *and* if your energy provider is open to that request then you might get it for free just so they can tick you off the smart meter to-do list.
Just been quoted £231.42 by Western Power to put in a 2 pole isolator. As they are running a monopoly and governed by Ofgem I will try and complain but don't hold much hope. Just out of interest how long a job would it be for installing an isolator switch? An hour? Love the Video and thanks Dave for doing these it helps us mugs know what to look out for and keep us safe..
Shocking isn't it? Yeah, easily achievable in an hour and part costs likely to be under £15 ex VAT. It's a money-spinner for them.
@@dsesuk Just a quick update after some googling and also mentioned by the nice lady at Western Power I got Octopus on it and yesterday I had an isolator switch fitted FOC. Quick turnaround from Octopus so if anyone else needs one maybe talk to the energy supplier? Now I can try and find a decent sparky to put in a new CU.
@@M_Holien Nice that the lady at Western Power gave you that tip, someone with a conscience.
In regards to surge protection if the consumer unit is prior to 18th edition its N/A. If it is 18th edition and has a relevent risk assessment its N/A, if not its C3. Thats what I have been recording anyway.
Thanks for uploading,interesting video.I am sure that 4mm 30amp radials on rewireable fuses are not permitted but as you have pointed out,it is allowed to have 2.5mm cable on a 30 amp rewireable,seems ridiculous doesn't it
Great as always don’t code spd or afdd. Quality advert makes it bearable, especially when you rant about TH-cam putting theirs in 😉 Totally agree about pulling fuses, seeing as safe isolation is such a hot topic
Thanks Simon. And safe isolation shouldn't be a topic at all of course. It should be a no-brainer for those of us out in the world just trying to do what we have to do.
Love your videos...Love the humour..the sponsor advert was fooking hilarious.
Thanks Neil
I used to install those Elster smets1 smart meters and the engineer pin was 1000000 if I remember correctly, give it a go.