Another thing; on the topic of why so many Spider-people are okay with going along with this; is that this Society acts like a giant coping mechanism for all of them. It's easier for them to go on in life believing that what happened to them & their loved ones, happened because it was supposed to and was always going to happen rather than knowing that it happened because they failed and it is squarely on them. They probably can't deal with that, especially the older Spider-people that have lost so much and so many; so they will fight to defend their false sense of security because it's the only thing keeping them going.
@@ShockwaveSoundwave-z2mit feels extremely cultish. From what I've heard it's more that they believe it ends worlds than actually concrete knowing it. At this point I'm expecting it to turn out that they're actually responsible for killing people to maintain the canon.
There's also selection bias in play as well. The spider society is a big club house for spider-men who agree with Miguel. Any who don't (other than Hobie who is impossible to nail down) probably either told him to get bent or were simply never contacted in the first place. The multiverse is infinite. So obviously there would be an infinite number of spider-people who are on Miguel's side. There would also be an infinite number who are not. Also, if Miguel is right most spider-men who told him to get bent probably got erased when their timeline got eaten by the "metaphor for capitalism"
Except every single one of them has lost their uncle. That in it of itself is evidence of Canon events. Why would the exact same thing happen to billions of spider-man if it's not pre determined?
True. He's a bit unhinged by his trauma and has a violent way of coping (being so rough with miles because he sees himself in him as he's making the same mistakes he made, and he's angry at himself for erasing "his" family by breaking canon) but his heart is in the right place. I still think there's more to the canon events that Miguel doesn't know about
He's a good guy but he's also the film's antagonist. Some people get confused when they see a person antagonizing the main character and mistake that for them being the villain. I think that's why so many people forget he's a hero, just like Miles.
Agreed. He is trying to save it because he has seen the damage it can cause. He knows because he’s done it. To ensure that it doesn’t happen again there needs to be a society to ensure that it doesn’t
@@PumkinSyrup what else is there for him to do about it? It would appear that this is the only way. Unless there is something that causes others to not have the canon like Gwen’s dad quitting to be Captain which stops the canon and his fate isn’t death.
This is another case of BOTH sides being right. Miles saying "Spidey Always" is a weird take when he literally watched his Uncle Die...so clearly not always and his Peter died too and didnt save the day so yh Good and bad things happen in life which makes people want to go back and fix it like Miles who learn from mistakes and great loss and try to become perfect like Miguel
I feel like by the end the line will be "Spidey Always TRIES" like how how the first movie hammered in that spiderman always gets back up, this one is saying "yeah spiderman doesn't always succeed, but he always tries to do the right thing."
Honestly part of what makes this movie so great is neither Miles nor Miguel is completely wrong. They just have different philosophies. They're both right about different aspects (and probably also wrong about different aspects). I'm a firm believer that in order for them to save the day in the third film, both Miguel and Miles are going to have to figure out how to reconcile these two philosophies and work together. It's funny so many people don't see this but it's nice seeing I'm not alone in siding with Miguel.
I agree and was about to comment the same thing! Philosophically I agree with Miguel, it just makes more sense to do the thing that will save the most people, but that doesn't mean that Miles is "wrong" for wanting to save his dad even if it goes against the canon. My theory though is that Miguel is wrong about canon events in some way, and that Miles will be able to save his dad without destroying his universe and in doing so he will show Miguel that some canon tragedies can actually be prevented. No idea if that's correct or not it's just what I think may happen!
@@sims4savefile-dh7yo nah, miles should be learning about the responsibility of power and shit. He'll probably lose his mom if not his dad. You need a sacrifice. Miles is right to want to save his dad but wrong to think it's okay to sacrifice the multiverse to save him since if universe collapses his dad will still die. Miles is dumb!!
I want one out of 2 outcomes to be true. Either Miles screws up so badly he has no choice but to let his father die, or have Miguel and Miles come to terms with each other and realize they both have good points. I just wish it won't be "Miles is 100% right because he's the main protagonist and Miguel is wrong". That would be pretty boring.
I think Miguel mistook Incursions from Canon Events. The "canon" has been broken in several universes already, and yet those are still intact without the Slider Society's intervention. What Miguel did was more in line with an Incursion, he stayed in another universe too long that his footprint got big enough to trigger the annihilation that was mentioned and seen in MoM.
It’s unlikely to be incursions due to all the spider people living in Miguel’s universe for a minimum of a few months but realistically is about 2 years. If it was an incursion that would mean that his universe should have been destroyed age’s ago especially considering other spider people can come and go without much issue.
I think it’s interesting to note as many people have pointed out that canon has broken in world 42 and in mile’s world, as well as gwen’s, along with all of the talk of “cake and eating it too” it feels like the whole idea is that he needs to do this on his own and resist authority, not to mention that Miguel looks and sounds different from his post credits scene, Miguel actually seems to be reacting extremely harshly to what he perceives to be his fault, although we’re probably missing key context on that universe (would it be 2099B?)
This is incorrect largely seeing as the universe probably has rules in play to a certain extent but not all the way. Like “SPIDERMAN has to go through the police captain close to him dying” but in Earth 42 there never was a spider-man. It never says GWENS dad has to die, so he quits and doesn’t. I feel like there are loopholes and such where you can get around some stuff but the rules still apply. I DO feel like Miles specifically wouldn’t have to abide by those rules though seeing as the og spider of his dimension probably already went through all that stuff already. Miles is in a unique position where he’s technically past all of their stories on spider-man, so he’s technically writing a whole new story. This leaves it up to him to create new “canon events” or entirely scratch the whole thing. Miles is the only one with a chance of breaking the canon or creating new ways for these events to play out since he’s the second spider and the first spider already had all that stuff happen in his universe
I think it's due to Spot in unironically absorbing all of that dark matter. Think each universe is kinda like a Forrest with branches and trees and all sorts of plant and animal mucking about. Now picture dark or antimatter being a powder keg or like a huge pile of dynamite. When a canon event is altered it causes ripples of energy which sets off dark matter or antimatter causeing a huge explosion something that could cause space itself to collapse in on itself. And since the multiverse is like a Forrest everyone is at risk of blowing up or in this case imploding. Spot having gone and sucked up a whole lot of dark matter has kinda fixed thibgs while also become a really big problem. He's basically an emotionally unstable MOAB capable of causing entire universes to collapse in on themselves. That's my thoughts tho probably wrong
@@error8119 this is wrong gwen literally showed us she realized why miguel is wrong her dad didn't have to die maybe the loopholes thing is right but that's doubtful sicne her dad was captain and didn't die this is also a theroy This whole cannon event thing could just probably not be real and only happening because of something wrong with the multiverse these are all just theroys
@@hammer-0 exactly. The universe might have certain rules in place, otherwise why tf do the same thing keep happening over and over again exactly the same way for every spider-man? This doesn’t mean the rules are 100% set in stone though. Like maybe the situation has to happen but if the spider-man can save the captain himself it’ll be alright. Like maybe you just can’t get help from outsiders during those situations
Most people backing Miles are just naive. Now while I do agree that Miles should be allowed to save his dad but existing as an Anamoly he already created a multiversal GOD, I can understand why Miguel doesnt trust his existence
You realize literally every other Spider would have done the same thing in Miles's shoes, right? And it's less about naivety and more about the fact that trying to bind an anomaly to some strict code for normals is kinda dumb.
@@laststrike4411 your acting like its some arbitray rule when yhey literally pulled up 100s of Spidermen going through the SAME events. In research multiole events reocurring isnt a COINCEDENCE. Its a probability and the level to which it reoccurs raises said probability. Miles dad may not die...but hes gonna lose someone FOR SURE in the next movie
Oh, Also, people believe a canon event was broken in Gwen's world when her father quits the force, but I don't think that's true. The canon REALLY is, something happens that causes a "Captain" to no longer be Captain. Usually it's their deaths, BUT Gwen's dad quitting being captain still has the same result. That key person now is NO LONGER a Captain, thus satisfying the fine print of canon. Meaning canon events still have to happen, but not necessarily to the letter in the way they they typical do. They may be able to manipulate canon events by being creative with with how the parameters of it are meet.
Canon events seem to very specifically ape the events of Spider-Man 616's life meaning that the Captain Canon event would almost certainly have to be a death.
I mean yes as is the case with every story ever. I’m just working with what we’ve been given also I’m more discussing how it’s logical to side with Miguel rather than him being definitively “right” despite the thumbnail hahaha
@@6STONES_ART About 51 minutes into the movie I found the conversation between Hobbie Brown and Miles very interesting. Hobbie is grabbing up stuff to make a watch that will later go to Gwen. Hobbie also says he is only there to look out for his drummer which is Gwen. He tells Miles to make your own watch which tells me Hobbie thinks Miles is also capable of making a watch. Lastly Hobbie warns Miles not to sign up for anything until he knows who he is fighting. Then we see Miguel's computer screens with images of Spot, Spider-Punk and one of Gwen and Miles on top of the roof at the party looking at Gwen's watch. Hobbie doesn't seem to trust Miguel and I feel it is more then the fact Hobbie is a punk who doesn't like authority. The first movie had a lot of foreshadowing so I am sure this one does to. Miguels anger to Miles is very personnel. I watched the movie 3 times did Miguel loose his universe before, during or after Kingpin started up his collider?
@@steventrofka7783Miguel losing that universe happens between the movies. In the post credits scene of the first we see him getting the first watch, so it's before he started going between universes.
@@steventrofka7783 It is highly unlikely Miguel is attempting to do anything evil. Miles is the one who is risking countless lives to potentially save one. What he is doing is madness and he made it worse for himself by following Gwen so now he must deal with the truth and that’s a fate worst than anything he could imagine.
@@epicsavagebros7400 This is Miles story, he is the main character not Miguel, and it is just a story. There is a lot of things about Miguel that the movie didn't explain. He blames a kid for the collider and becoming spider man. Then he blames Gwen personally for not catching Miles instead of himself. I believe when the next movie comes out it will show Miguel is hiding something. Miles is the main character and hero of this story. Gwen is also a main character. Miguel is just an antagonistic.
fate and destiny is not always clear. If Miles from 1610 is not meant to be Spider-Man, is it then a mistake that he become Spider-Man, or is that fate that he becomes one? I understand Miguel's intentions but not everything is set in stone or is a mistake.
I agree. I don’t think Miguel has it fully figured out. He’s definitely figured out a good chunk and clearly has done a lot of good but when it comes to Miles I think he’s missing a few things to gain the full picture
Are we talking about the comics or movies? Because Miles in the comics 1610 didn't have an interdimensional spider bite him, it was an Oz spider that bites him, and he became Spider-Man that way. While Earth 1610 in the moives is caused by the enterdimensional Spider. But different versions of Miles are meant to become Spider-Man regardless, but this one particular version of him in the movies isn't.
Finally someone sees this exactly the way I do! Preach! I saw those very same complaints from the host on the Spider-Man Crawlspace, calling the Spider Society a Cult and the down graded their rating for the movie because they didn't believe other Spider-Men would agree with letting someone die, in the interest of the many. And I said the exact same thing about, it's obvious both visually and in what Miguel says about trying to find another way many times and failing, that they obviously had been TRYING to do both and failed and it's implied more universes when kaput. That's why they have tech to at least slow the effects. As it is, we don't even know what the final result of Spider-Man India's homeworld is going to be other than we left it with a huge hole forming. I believe the fact Miles is an anomaly and his general story is dramatically different from other Spider-Men (He having both his birth parents while none of the other Spider-Men have that) makes him in some way uniquely attuned to deal with this situation. HIs power set being different from other Spider-Men (and they keep saying he's been working on expanding his electric powers), that's going to play into the finale in some way.
He has a good reason for why he's so mad, he literally had his family die in his universe so he went to another one where he was dead, and he learned the hard way. I think he's just trying to warn miles, Miguel never actually hurt miles until near the end where he had to because miles wouldn't listen.
He never talked about his life before he went to another universe where his other self was killed he just showed up found his other self dead & inserted himself into that life. Miguel is hiding things from everyone he's being very shady.
I think Miguel is misguided in his theories of what a canon event is because he assumes that a certain event change that he made is what caused the collapse rather than it might happen to be something else but it turns out that it just happen to be a result of something else. In the wider lore, there are some universes where these so called 'canon events' didn't happen and the world was still in tact. There is a universe out there where a Spiderperson didn't lose their 'Uncle Ben' but it's just Miguel hadn't found one yet and Miles 1610 might be proof that he is actually one example of one such world.
Lets not forget the existance of madame web who hasnt appeared yet (she maybe could help) , and Miles said in the movie that he wanted to search for an alternative, obviously he doesnt actually know about madame web and the original universe where all spiders who bite spidermans come from, but even though Miguel is technically right as of now, in the end Miles is indeed correct there might be ways to save everyone but the characters havent discovered those ways yet.
Miguel didn't avoid the Canon Event of his universe, he pulled a Rick Sanchez to undo a Canon Event that already happened. That is what caused the unravelling. I believe, Miguel is causing more unravellings by stopping Spiders from even trying to safe people. Yes, Spider-Man will occassionally fail to safe somebody, and sometimies that results in somebody close to him dieing. But Spider-Man will ALWAYS try, will always do his bets to safe every single person. Saving people is more impiortant than stopping the villain. He can stop villains any time of day, and yes, sometimes time is tight. But he will always take those seconds out of the fight to at the very least TRY to safe somebody. That is why Peter saved Miles while fighting Goblin in the collider room. Just sitting on his hands and doing nothing while somebody is about to get crushed is a much greater risk to the Canon Event than succeeding in actually saving them.
I’m sure that the Yuri Lowenthal incarnation of Peter Parker is with Miguel O’Hara because he had to sacrifice Aunt May for all of New York, thus he understands Miguel’s whole philosophy of putting the needs of the many above the needs of the few.
Siding with Miguel makes sense in terms of wanting to play it safe. That being said, there is the possibility that Spider 42 going into Miles’ dimension and biting him was according to the main timeline.
Even from the perspective of the more skeptical members of the Spider Society, they've seen increasingly coincidental occurances that are helping build causality between breaking canon and these catastrophic events. The other thing you have to consider is that they are likely still making progress in investigating this phenomenon and while everyone *wants* to save their loved ones, simply saying "F it." and breaking canon anyways when this situation is already so delicate is not the way to go. It's sad and seems like a harsh sacrifice to make in the meantime, but given the stakes, it 100% makes sense that at least at this staged, nobody would be on board with Miles wildin out and going to save *his* dad as if nothing else or matters or there's nothing else to consider.
Idk…the whole concept of canon events is in direct contrast with the multiverse don’t you think? I mean, the basis of the multiverse is that every choice, every event isn’t set in stone but from that choice/event springs a new timeline in witch things have gone differently. If an event is canon than there is on multiverse; in the movie the concept of canon is related to every single timeline independently but that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me cuz it’s implying that the different timelines haven’t originated from some events going differently. It seems to me a lot of Spider-Man aren’t thinking, rather blindly thrusting Miguel cuz everything in Miles universe isn’t canon anymore since the spider is from Earth-42 (i guess it’s 42..) and the same thing applies to Prowler Miles’ universe.
What's wrong with Miguel's theory is that it has been disproven by people like miles AND peter since May-day's birth should have destroyed peter B universe since it was only because of miles that mayday was even conceived
The writers made it so Miguel is wrong whether they meant to or not. He explains how canon events need to happen and changes are anomalies that shouldn’t exist. Miguel explained how miles shouldn’t have become Spider-Man which lead to spot being created which makes spot and everything he does anomalies. And we see that Jeff is going to die because Spot kills him. So Jeff’s death should be an anomaly and Miguel should be trying to help miles save his dad instead of trying to make sure Jeff dies because his death isn’t a canon event
with the words miguel says yeah makes sense its miles' dad or the entire 1616 universe easy choice! buuut we forget that just because its what miguel said doesnt mean hes fully correct or fully understands what canon events and anomalies are he could be getting tunnel vision due to his own experiences and guilt, ignoring all the evidence to him being wrong, or never seeking it out in the first place
@@Silva-avliS The points in the video are pretty good, considering we literally see a blackhole forming from Miles saving captain Singh in Pavitr Prabhakar's universe and disrupting the timeline. Also mentioned is the fact that immediately spidermen are on scene with containment procedures in place implying that this isn't their first rodeo, they've experienced canon breaks before and they've had enough time to study how to contain them from destroying universes. I don't see how every single one of these spidermen would lie to Miles about canon events being dangerous, doesn't make sense
Spider-man has been told countless times that what he believes in is wrong or a bad idea. But he does what "He" believes is right. that's who Peter Parker is. it's like people forget "one more day" happened. God told him he was wrong and he still did what he believed was right for his aunt may. current storline of the comic is peter fighting his friends to save MJ.
Because he technically is. While Miguel is right and it ACTUALLY fits the spider-man logic more than it seems from what we’ve seen different spidermen choose to do, it’s also wrong in a sense. It has a lot to do with Miles being the rule breaker in most of his forms throughout the multiverse. Miles is never a regular spider. He always has extra powers, he always acts different, he’s the most likely one to NOT follow that story to a tee. He’s wrong not because his logic isn’t sound, it’s because Miles operates on different logic. It’s also just crazy to tell someone to let their dad die, like even with the logic that’s not something you can ask of a 15 year old child, you give him the chance to try. That’s a dimension you just prepare to save. Miles is also the only one who is in a universe where every canon event has already passed within it. We don’t know if he HAS to follow that storyline anyway. It’s sound logic but at the same time there’s a lot of holes in that logic because of the specific person we’re talking about.
Yeah it’s like I said at the end of the video as much as I can see why most spider-men would side with Miguel due to reasons stated I don’t think Miguel is 100% right. Especially when it comes to miles, I believe he’s tunnel visioned to believe that due to Miles being the original anomaly he thinks him breaking his canon event has even worse side effects than most. Feel like one way he justifies that logic is the anomaly of miles leads to the direct creation of The Spot a villain who has now become a Multiversal threat. All of this I think stops Miguel from seeing how Miles could be a positive and not a constant negative.
I don’t know if anyone has pointed this out but if the Spot was the one that caused all that stuff in Spider-Man India’s earth then that would mean he was causing a canon event if his destruction was going to kill the captain.
I think Miguel's point of view makes perfect sense, and it makes sense for other spider-mans agree with him. BUT, I think he is wrong, in various accounts. He is wrong in that he is making many assumptions about how this all works, I mean, he believes Miles is an anomaly, but is he? It's implied that the Miles at the end was supposed to be spider-man, so atleast one Miles was supposed to be Spiderman, secondly, if he is an anomaly, how come neither of the two Miles worlds are breaking down, or even Gwen's after his father retired. He is also wrong as a Spider-man, and all the other spider people on his side are too, because the point of spider-man is saving people and doing the right thing even if it's dangerous, every life matters. All the spider-man's accept Miguel's point because of their own trauma, because it's easier to accept the death of their loved ones thinking it's necessary. I believe, in a sick way, they are more willing to accept this deaths because it's people related to them instead of an innocent bystander that has nothing to do with any spider-man, I believe that is because of the trauma they all carry. Miguel is the worst one, I think he is filled with so much guilt about what happened to him that he is overcorrecting doing things to satiate his guilt, he has given up, he isn't looking for a way to save everyone, he is only looking for things to stay as they are, instead of improving them and trying to save more people, he is only preventing people doing what he did instead of trying to actually save the multiverse and all it's people. Which is understandable, but still the wrong solution. Spider-man should always try to save any person even if it puts the whole universe at risk, because that is what makes them a hero, otherwise, there is no point of Spider-man to exist at all.
Ngl, Madam Web wouldn’t let that slide, I feel like she would look for other options to break the canon or at least look for one. Mostly since she’s a literal SPIDER-GOD. Also I feel like some other Spider-Men would’ve tried to help Miles, one of them being Insomniac Spider-Man. Mostly since he HAS a miles in his dimension and he could tell what THIS one is going through, and would try and make this in a peaceful way. Another is maybe the 1997 Animated Series Spider-Man and The Amazing Spider-Man of the Shadow Dimension universe/Edge of time. They both have time travel adventures and know how it is. I’d say Spider-Man unlimited MAYBE but I can’t really say the same for spectacular. I know 616 Peter WOULD try to reason with Miguel but to no avail. But once again they would TRY but they would maybe be hoarded by the other spidermen. I also find it kinda stupid how the alternate universe Spider-Men is just 616 peters other outfits, yet it’s fair since there’s not a lot of things you can add to a spider society. One final thing is Ben Riley, I WISH HE WORE HIS SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN SUIT, but hey I’m still glad to see him
As much as I agree some of those spider-men might of tried it could very much be the case that they did try in the past or witnessed other spider-men try and they’ve seen the result which were tragic. Considering it seems they’ve stopped enough canon event breaks to have fully developed technology to stopping a timeline from breaking and seem to have full routines for said situations it must of happened a fair amount of times. Then there is also the super simple real world answer of not enough screen time to dedicate to that many Spider-Men sharing altering views. Only so much you can do with said time and budget
Some people brought this up to me before, but insomniac peter siding with Miguel kind of makes sense. At first I thought it was completely out of character for him not to side with miles. But he has been in a situation a lot like this one. He had to choose between saving may or saving all of New York. He knew the right choice was saving everyone, and so did May. So in the end, that's what he did. Now, Miles is in a very similar situation where his choice seems to be his loved one or everyone. Insomniac peter has heard the stakes and most likely sides with Miguel because he's already been through it himself
@@6STONES_ART fair enough, yet my only complaint with the movie is how Miguel's logic makes no sense, especially considering the events of ITSV. Yet, only time could tell what happens in the next movie
Miguel said that Miles wasn't meant to be Spiderman. Maybe it was timing since spider 42 was taken away before it bit Miles 42. However, Miguel didn't have the same story the average Spiderman has. He wasn't bitten by a spider, he don't even have spidey senes! They aren't the same. Besides, there are other Spidermen who didn't follow the same key story pieces.
Right?! Surely if there is a 'canon' then part of that canon would be being bitten by a radioactive spider. And yet our three prime antagonists (not bad guys, just antagonists) weren't bitten by spiders. Their related traumas have just made them relate to the Spiderman experience. I think this is a big part of why they are the fiercest protectors of this idea of "Spiderman".
Thing is though, do we know it would have Bitten Miles 42, or would it have bitten a Peter Parker in 42's world who also was in the class with him? I don't believe any Miles was meant to be a Spider-Man at all. Remember, the 42 dimension must also have a Peter Parker somewhere.
@@Ebonyleopardno there this shot in the movie when the spot is explaining how the he brought a spider from earth 42 to there earth and it’s shows a kid with braids doing school work about to be bit before a portal open up and the spider disappears just pay close attention when you watch the movie again and you’ll catch it
Miguel's story is different is because he's the "Spiderman of 2099". A Peter Parker already existed and fulfilled those story beats. But this means there can be multiple variations of Miguel as there are Peter variations. Unfortunately they rarely interact, either because those futures never matured to the year 2099 or that Miguel variant died in action (the only time a Miguel variant interacted with another, he was killed in seconds front of the main line Miguel).
My question is if Miles did the same thing that Miguel did and replaced someone in their canon, how come his universe wasnt erased? Is that why Miguel resents Miles, because he cant figure that out? If so, that means he hasnt done enough research to know everything and might be letting Miles' dad die for nothing
Wasn’t really sure where else to say this but thank you all for the love and interaction on this video. I was not expecting this to blow up at all it was just a little rant I wanted to get out there. It’s been great having so many respectful discussions with you about this topic and I hope we can continue this in future videos I make. 3k views for a simple 100 sub channel is wild. Thank you all again.
People siding with miguel are just wrong say what you want about the multiverse or anything like that because miles whole thing is like you said I can do both it doesn't matter if a whole universe has to go down what's important is not allowing someone to suffer or die because you do nothing if miguel doesn't get that he doesn't know the first thing about being spiderman (edge of time reference)
@@6STONES_ART Then don't take that choice from him in the first place. That alone makes Miguel wrong. (And hints that he might have restricted other spider-people and constricted them to obey to their respective canons.) The web of life and destiny intersects, but the differences are also valid. Occurrences even repeated ad nauseam are not universal laws. Even Lyla underlines that the whole canon schematic is still a theory, but Miguel is using it to shield himself from his trauma and contaminating the other spiders with it.
I finally saw the movie 2 days ago thanks to my cousin. The movie was damn outstanding!!!!! I understand both Miguel and Miles’ points; they are both right. Miguel is not in the wrong but I can’t blame Miles for going against this.
I'll have to wait and see how the sequel plays out before I judge. Fate narratives kinda suck in a lot of ways, but at the same time "defying fate" narratives tend to annoy me just as much, when it's about finding some random loophole in how the mechanic was set up. I think it's safe to say that Miles is gonna save his dad in the next movie. It just narratively wouldn't make sense otherwise. But I hate the idea of, after all that having Miguel and every Spider-Man who believed him look like a big fucking idiot, and only Miles was smart enough to defy the canon. Miguel goes like "Oops. Guess there must have been a slight misunderstanding in my theory that the entire conflict was built upon lmao. Hope you can forgive me, Miles" and everyone teams up together to fight the Spot. Idk, we'll have to wait and see. Just really don't like the idea of it all turning out to have been a false theory at the end
Spoilers: I understand how they all have emotional incentive to agree with him but Miguel's logic is off. If canon events are things that are always supposed to happen, then how does miles, an anomaly, have a canon event. How is he even part of the spiderverse in the first place, and how is spot canon if he depends on miles to be created. Also wouldn't the spot be the first anomaly since he creates miles and he wasn't supposed to. It just doesn't add up
Miguel's entire theory seems to be based on the idea that if someone is a version of Spider-Man certain bad things have to happen to them or else the universe collapses. So, if someone is a Spider-Man then you have canon events even if you only became a Spider-Man due to some dimensional fuckery. It makes next to no sense that dimensional stability would be based on that specifically but that's what Miguel's theory seems to be.
MIGUEL DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT INCURSIONS. MIGUEL DID NOT DISRUPT A CANON, BUT HE STAYD IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE. THAT CAUSES INCURSIONS. MIGUEL MISINTERPRETED THE PROBLEM.
Here are the problems I had with Miguel’s argument: 1. He himself is also an anomaly. He was never bitten by a radioactive creature. He got his powers because someone screwed with his work. He doesn’t belong there either. 2. He actively tried to make sure that Miles wouldn’t even be present for his “Canon Event.” The whole point of the “Sacrifice” argument is that there has to be a CHOICE, and to make that choice a spider-person had to be there for that event. The reason those “Canon Events” hold power over Spider-folk is because they occurred in spite of their best efforts. 3. I have a huge problem with Miguel’s modus operandi. To show up, render aid, and withdraw that aid at a crucial moment is ethically effed up. 4. Miguel doesn’t actually know what happens when “Canon Events” don’t happen. He’s an anomaly - right down to the choice he made regarding the alternate universe family incident. The sample size was too small. 5. Miguel comes off as defeatist. Even if something is doomed to fail, you still have to try. I came out of that movie wondering how Miguel was even allowed to be considered a Spider-Man, let alone a hero. He’s just a crab in a bucket.
Its not about the spider bite, ITS about events and motion(note that Im not siding with Miguel here) . The Canon he refers to are not about the spider biting (there are other spiders out there that have diferent origins than Peter Parker 616) . The Canon is about events and situations, like one spider already existing in Miles universe(blonde Peter) and Peter taking HIS place with a spider that was supposed to bite Earth 42 Miles). By "stealing" that Miles spider and effectively changing 1610 world by "making" Peter got killed and 42 Miles don't becoming Spider Man, he essentialy changed events that would occur normally. Yeah, Im not saying Miguel I,s right, Im Just explaining what he meant
@@Spid4r1 I see your point. And it is a good point. Even within the context of all of that, the way that he obtained his powers still matters. The cornerstone of Spider-Society is the shared experience. Isn't it odd that the three people we see at the top are O'Hara, Riley, and Drew (none of whom were bitten)? When his argument hinges on the presumption of a shared experience, it falls apart when his experience is different on a fundamental level. It's kind of like 8 Mile (and I can't believe I'm referencing that movie). Eminem's character is under attack in the rap battles because his skin color. The opponent (I think his name was "Clarence") does this to invoke a presumption of shared experience with the crowd. This backfires when Eminem's character points out that not only is Clarence not from there, but he comes from a home that isn't broken and is pretty well-off.
Miguel has saved literal universes. It’s noted in the movie that his actions have saved multiple timelines which would have otherwise collapsed killing billions. In the movie you watched, his tech and the society he formed prevented the annihilation of Spider Man India’s universe. He’s more of a hero than Miles or Peter Parker or Gwen. He may be proven “wrong” in the final movie, but to this point no Spider-Man alive has saved more people than Miguel.
@@wilkic2 Except we don't actually know any of that. He doesn't know any of that. He saw a grand total of ONE universe fall apart (due to his own immoral actions, by the way), went "no more," and took it upon himself to go on a crusade across the multi-verse. Of course his data would indicate that he "saved" those universes. He doesn't have any actual data to show what happens without his intervention - just simulations. There is a very real possibility that he's going around fixing stuff that doesn't actually need to be fixed. Moreover, there's also a very real possibility that his little canon-crusade is the root cause of all the multiversal problems. And, even if what you posit is true, he still can't be a hero because the very building blocks of his actions still boils down to "show up, render aid, and do nothing at the crucial moment." That's still effed up. And then, there's the matter of his death-cult-spider-society. It's built on the presumption of a shared experience. None of the members in the upper echelon of that society - not Miguel, not Drew, nor Riley - have the basic shared experience of how they got their spider powers in the first place. Miguel is a politician AT BEST, and a tourist keeping the gate at worst.
@@DashXero no. Wrong. He’s noted that they’ve gone to universes that were collapsing and his tech saved them. “Sometimes we haven’t been so lucky” when talking about stabilizing Indian Spider-Man’s world implies that sometimes they *have* been lucky and his tech stabilized those universes and stopped them from collapsing. You saying “we’ll we don’t KNOW they would have collapsed” is silly. If a person has massive tumors in their body, we don’t KNOW if successful chemo saved them. We’re just 99.9% sure because we’ve seen what happens otherwise in other people. The canon stuff is preventative medicine. His active medicine is his stabilizing tech. Sometimes that doesn’t work and universes die. So he enforced the canon to prevent that risk. Even if he’s entirely wrong about canon, he has gone to universes which were collapsing due to others’ actions and prevented a collapse events from expanding, saving billions of lives.
I think it was Film Theorist, or someone… who said it’s more likely that the issues the spider-verse is seeing is an incursion. Like in Dr Strange, having a person from a different universe come in for long periods of time (and making bigger and bigger changes) is what brings the universes together. So Miguel being in a different universe for so long is what caused the collapse, not the lack of canon events, which I think makes more sense. If Miles is an anomaly, then his universe should have collapsed by now, but because the spider from the other universe is dead and no longer making changes, the world is stable. Like other people have said, the point of the deaths in Spider-Man’s life is to teach him something e.g. with great power comes great responsibility, and simply letting his father die because it’s “canon” is not going to teach Miles whatever lesson he’s supposed to learn I shall now shock you with the fact that I have watched the video but have not played any of the spider-man games and have only watched the Marvel and Spider-Verse films, none of the other Spider-Man movies. Is your brain blown? 😂😂
I've watched a bunch of videos going over this and I think the ultimate way the movie series is going to go about it is proving that there is something causing these incursions or breaks in reality. It probably will be something different than what Spider 2099 thought and it will hinge on what he does from there. He could double down or reevaluate and fix the problem correctly. They do have it set up well that you could see him going to either end of the spectrum.
This is the definition of "The more you f around , the more you find out.". Miguel f around by disrupting a certain event and he found out. So he's avoiding that and not letting it happen again. What if Miguel doesn't want Miles to experience the same thing and become another version of Miguel?
Accroding to DR Olivia Octavius while she explain it to King Pin in movie Into the Spider Verse "If We Fire Again This Week THERE COULD BE BLACK HOLE UNDER BROOKLYN" "the multiple dimention beginning to crash each other" "What this means is there could be a rupture in the space time continuum" So BLACK BLACK HOLE in MUMBATHAN in Pavitr dimension is Cause By SPOT Turning ON THE Giant Collider and BLACK HOLE in Spot room Because of mini collider So its not MILES Fault Break the Canon Event MIGUEL Suit is GLITCHING when it got Venom Strike From MILES SPOT not Glitching in Other Universe
I don't get why people call Miguel is a villain, he's not even a villain he's just trying to save Miles and his universe so he won't end up like him but he won't listen
I don't believe the universe collapsed because of Miguel being there. I refuse to believe it was anything other than a coincidence, and something else caused it. Correlation does not always equal causation, and it was pretty clear to me that what happened in Pavitr's universe was a direct and obvious result of the Spot, not "breaking the canon." Until Beyond the Spider-Verse proves it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, I still say Miguel is wrong, and there is not enough "evidence" to say he's right as of now.
Like any Spider-Man or good person, he’s just trying to do what he believes is right. Everyone is more important than an individual. Miles and Hobie want both. And you know it’s a good movie when a movie sets up a moral dilemma and it has people talking that could go on for a year or years
the problem with Across The Spider-Verse's portrayal of Peter Parker is that Yes he can't save everyone......but he would still try. Every major version of Peter Parker would try to stop a death if they believed they could. I get the majority of spider people would follow SP2099's orders. we don't know them. they are made for the movie to be faceless masses. but any Known Spider-man (folks form any of the shows or movies) wouldn't blindly follow. we know their character. we know their compassion. Spider-man finds a way to do both....or at least tries.
I feel most spidermen also KNOWS though. Like we’ve seen spidermen be put in a situation where they HAVE to choose. When there is no doing both, when it’s someone close to them vs saving New York. We’ve seen Spider-man be put in that situation, we’ve seen him choose the masses. Yes spider-man WOULD try both, but when the risk for trying is your entire dimension ceasing to exist, it’s a little too big of a risk for most spidermen we’ve seen
Honestly, I'm pretty much on the Miguel side of things, because if I was on the same situation I'd do the same thing. I'm really not much of a fan of "I can save everyone because I can" due to how simplistic and naive it is. Being a hero isn't always glorious. There's always going to be a point where you need to make the hard choice. Sam Raimi's Spiderman 2002 really touched upon this when Green Goblin made Peter choose between saving Mary Jane and a bunch of kids trapped in a cable car. In that film, Peter was able to save both, but at the end of it he refuses to have a relationship with Mary Jane because he understands the dangers of being involved with him and how he can't always be there for her since he needs to do his responsibilities as a hero. That is a more compelling way to be heroic, and honestly gives more impact. Then again this is a kid's show, and I won't expect that kind of bittersweet conclusion since majority of young audiences would like it to be sunshine and rainbows.
I feel like I’m 3rd movie we will find Miguel’s theory flawed . There was things wrong with the story . Like Miguel thing happened because he was literally replacing himself in another universe for a long period of time . And India universe it was spot doing that not the multiverse messing up
Tom peter created multiple anomalies and I would say he caused more damage than miles ever caused and all miles wants to do is save his dad and tbh who wouldn’t I don’t think miles saving his father is going to risk the multiverse
I can definetly understand and even empathize Miguel, but I'm mainly on Miles's side because what Miguel did to destroy a universe was slightly different than how Miles supposedly would. Miguel replaced a dead counterpart of himself from an alternate dimension. Miles just wants to save his dad, and it doesn't involve any other universe, just his own.
You know, I was rewatching Steins Gate the other day, and I was thinking, what if Miles bg some miracle manages to save his father, by either some plot doohickey or by himself unknowingly sacrificing a universe or two, he manages to save his father. And then his father dies just the same (a la Mayuri style), in a catastrophic heart attack kinda thing?
I think not all cannon events are the same for every Spider-Man. We know that Spider-Verse is hinted to be connected to the MCU, and in most alternative reality series there are variants where what we would see as cannon events for Spider-Man happen differently or never happened. This makes those Spider-Man who come from universes where alternative cannon’s happen turn into completely different people. For example, there is a Spider-Man variant called Spider Assassin. Spider Assassin is different because he starts killing people unlike most variants of Spider-Man who have a no kill rule and always tries to stop people from killing. That makes him a very different person with very different core values but he’s still Spider-Man. But if that happened to another version of Spider-Man that could lead to a Butterly effect where the universe does end up going to shit. The cannon breaking could also not always lead to the same thing. Sometimes the universe could be intact but the timeline changes and the theme of the universe goes from happy to very dark, sometimes the universe breaks, sometimes Peter lives a life he’s not supposed to, sometimes people do things that go against who they were leading up to becoming like someone who was leading to become a hero turns out to be a villain. There are even a Spider-Man variants where Peter is as rich as Tony Stark with his own company instead of the typical broke Peter. Many of us could see Peter being broke as a cannon event because a lot of plot lines happen only because Peter is broke. So if he was never broke he never gets to go through those plot lines and come out the other end. Which leads to a lot of things in that universe changing due to the butterfly effect of Peter being different but the universe is still intact. Now if that was the case the Spider Societies job would be to fix a very specific type of broken cannon. The type where a universe is breaking or a character crosses into a universe they aren’t supposed to be in. That is what they do in the show, but they never try to fix the universe where Mile’s spider comes from even though they know it exists and they probably know it’s still there intact. They probably left Miles alone as long as they did because it’s not their job to step in when a universe isn’t breaking. It’s only their business when a universe is breaking or a character is in a universe they don’t belong in.
I have some objections to this. The fact that this specific Miles is spiderman interrupted a canon event in another dimension and we clearly see the other dimension is fine (at least in the reality shattering sense, Miles being prowler isn't really fine I guess). Another objection is that since these events are meant to make spiderman what he is, making Miles just accept his father's death would teach him nothing making that a canon breaking event: one thing is trying to save someone and failing another is not trying at all. There is also another option to consider: since canon events make very little sci-fi sense, there might be another more "scientific" explanation. Since to break a canon event external knowledge is required, the simple fact that there are people from other dimensions present might be the cause for the shattering of reality. In other words the more they try to fix the problem the more they will have a problem.
But if Miguel was right, than how come Earth-1610 didn't collapse the moment Miles got bitten from the Spider that was transported from Earth-1610? Just a thought.
If in your frame, it already happened, it's canon. If it hasn't happened yet, it's not "things that are, but things that could possibly be, that need not yet come to pass," as Charles Dickens once had Scrooge put it. Also, Miguel didn't save his own family. He merely stole them from the dead Miguel. And then failed to save that new family the same way he failed to save his previous family. For the same personal character flaw reasons. So he's no better than Kingpin. Because it was a canon event for one version of you, doesn't mean it has to be a canon event for you in your specific instance, if it's not already the past. Therefore, Miguel is wrong for wanting Jefferson to die. Miles is right in that respect. Yet, if Miles tried to go back in time to save Aaron, then Miguel would have had a valid point. Yet, Miles doesn't try to rewrite his own past to save Aaron. He only wants to save Jefferson. This is why, in "A Centipede Once Again Saves the Spiderverse," Candi starts the resistance to Miguel long before Gwen and Hobie start one in the actual movie. She sees through Miguel a lot sooner, and already has a plan. Candi, for the record, has a MASSIVE wiki article documenting all her canon events. And she has a LOT of them! She knows not to attempt to rewrite her own history; but she's not going to let Miguel's speculation globe on her future stop her from doing what she believes is right. After all: she knows that if Aranman blesses her effort to alter the trajectory of her future, he'll allow her attempt at a For Want of a Nail to succeed. The original "canon event" will only happen if the Rod of Destiny is hard-set due to Aranman hard-willing it to happen. Otherwise, the webs in the Web of Destiny surrounding the Rod will be able to change their directions slightly, while the greater path of history remains intact. Because the intersections of the web that define fate are the product-intersection of differing wills that interact. Choices multiplied by other choices become fate. But to attempt to know it all and aim it a certain way is a mind-of-God scenario that not even Cherinob is allowed to fully know! Therefore, Miguel can't hope to get it all right all the time. He's playing God, and it will backfire on him horribly. Then again, the reason that Candi / Ciem is able to find such peace in all of this, is because she knows that there is a greater plan, that she can't possibly control everything nor save everyone, and that not every disaster is her fault. - She didn't know the Pyro Panthers were coming. Because Imaki was out of town, and Miriam got distracted from informing her. So Miriam accepted responsibility for that. - However, Candi blames herself for the fact that she got arrested by confused police mistaking her for one of the Pyro Panthers, because she was the one who chose to go to Danny's house after school, rather than have Danny go to her house, in spite knowing that she could do all the same activities with her boyfriend at her place without repercussion, and then wouldn't need to flee the Loffin house when the Pyro Panthers bombed it. Meaning, she would never have been seen out-of-costume in the parking lot of Posey's during a riot. - Given Julie Saffin's chosen activity and associations, Candi is secure in the knowledge that Julie would've probably gotten herself killed one way or another anyway, even if Candi had tried to save her. - However, Stiggy becoming bulked out and utterly sadistic in prison was in response to Candi mistreating him when he was a skinny little twig petty robber. Her being cruel when apprehending him led to him bulking up in prison to become more of a threat. So she had to, with Stiggy, learn almost the same lesson as Miles regarding Spot. - While she was horrified by what happened to her friends when Korsicht attacked, she doesn't hold herself responsible. They were completely overwhelmed by Korsicht's army, and by the Anitos. One juvenile prison with no National Guard backup , with a centipede woman and a goat-man as its top defenders, versus an army of demonic female golem monsters that shriek like banshees and crave blood like vampires. And terrorists with uzis and jetpacks! And an ash cloud overhead blocking out the sun, and threatening to descend on everyone and turn their lungs into cedar blocks! She had no warning that this was coming. None. All the comms were down. The only hint that something like this could happen, was just a short time before it happened, when Korsicht destroyed Louisville with the Heart of Pele necklace. And even then, Anarteq and Kamohoalii were only able to work with the Sodality Church to determine that the Heart of Pele was in Icy Finger possession. They were unable to pinpoint WHEN it would be used, or WHERE, nor entirely to WHAT END! Even then, Candi was in juvie then, for refusing to testify against her godfather regarding Zeran wardrobes. So in theory, she shouldn't have been responsible for anything anyway, because she was supposed to be in prison! - Halal Affadidah's raid was so well-planned, even the Gray Champion couldn't stop it. So Candi could forgive herself for being unable to stop what happened next. - She did feel some responsibility for Duzerit detonating Yellowstone; but grateful that Extirpon was able to minimize the damage. That being said, she had no warning that Duzerit would be arriving with the Heart of Pele stolen back from SCALLOP's vault. She'd been led to believe that defeating Quoll was all she had to do, and then Duzerit threw a curveball at everyone's plans. - She was as in-the-dark about the Denison raid as everyone else. So she couldn't fault herself for not knowing. She was given no possible way to know! Therefore, she doesn't blame herself for the fact that it happened. Though, she did regret that she didn't have a chance to give Remotach to more than just herself and Dolly. So she got to witness hundreds of men being eviscerated upon capture by the Hebbleskins, and hundreds of women getting beheaded at the Denison death camp, right before being rescued by the Navyropes. - She did feel a little responsible for Arfaas unleashing a plague to wipe out most of Indiana's population, since she refused to surrender to his forces and be beheaded by them. However, she knew Arfaas well enough to know he would've unleashed the plague even if she had complied. - Pretty much every disaster that happens to her after this, and it's all too easy for the fault to lie with someone else. Her only major regret in Texas, is that her being hasty to get Stephanie Barrin involved in protecting her from Milewing's goons while she was pregnant led to Stephanie having various legal issues. So Candi became responsible for some of Stephanie's future misery. - She does feel some regret that her half-brother Darius is so willing to persecute her, that he also persecuted her fans, especially anyone that dressed up like her. Tabitha Pang, she believes, suffered needlessly. This guilt was somewhat softened by the realization that Tabitha would've suffered anyway, solely due to being the daughter of Hea Pang, sidekick to the Gray Champion. Tanya Woven nearly got in all sorts of trouble for becoming the Ciem of Seattle, solely due to her resemblance to Candi. And Karla Wimberton getting arrested for visiting a sick child at St. Jude's while in a Ciem suit? Candi thought that was beyond stupid! Though, it made Candi feel better to know that it wasn't her making the decision to do that to Karla, it was her scumbag half-brother Darius abusing his government position that did that. So in many ways, Candi is the Anti-Miguel. Even though both have lived through a LOT of tragedy! Which is also why I side with Miles in the movie. Sure, Miles' lines could've perhaps been written better, to make him not sound selfish for wanting to save his father. But it's Sony. I don't expect perfect writing from the company that made Venom 2 and Morbius.
Okay let me ask you a question if you lost someone so precious to you, while you are holding enough power to save many people would you blame yourself for this tragedy For most of us the anwser is yes, and what if then someone new came from another universe told you that it must happened in order to make your universe continue to exist Miguel is that kind of person, telling you that it's not your fault, wouldn't you side with him, after all it is easier to throw blame at fatum, than living with it It offers a quick result, but it is a trap, trap of sufficating your own identity If death of someone close is a fate thing, then are you defined by the same fate Most of the spider society are people traumatized by lost of someone special, who sided with Miguel because he told them that must happen The only fully free spiderman is Miles Morales, he is still scared of loosing his papa But being free isn't about not being scared, but fighting despite fear On the other end of spectrum is Miguel who also has huge fear, so much fear that he positioned himself as a leader of spider society, he needs everything to be under his control The anger he feels, agression he gives, especially to Miles isn't result of strength but weakness, entrapment of guilt, the unability to fight against fate, fear of making changes After all spiderman is all about leap of faith A jump that Miguel, the leader of spiderman, fears to do And Miles, the anomaly, who constantly do it despite everything So who's the real Spider-Man?
@@michaelo2642 Because stepping in to help anyway is what needs to be done. Spiderman is a hero because he always steps against fate and predetermination. Canon be damned. If rules hurt people, they need to be be addressed and reworked.
If it's logically correct that it saves more lives, then it is morally right. And the ppl who ignore that are morally wrong and selfish, closing their ears and only looking for what they wanna see.
Miguel 😂 is definitely wrong because he went to another universe trying to change the timeline by replacing himself. Miles can't mess up his own universe. Only difference is miles was suppose to become the prowler. The spot/spider42 isn't suppose to be in mile universe. Miguel evidence is thrown out the window. Because the spot messed up big time and this version of miles doesn't belong in the Spiderman family. He was suppose to be prowler not Spiderman. Miles has free will in his timeliness
Miguel is wrong because he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, but he thinks he knows anyway. Miguel tried to love someone else’s life, Mike’s is just trying to be Miles.
Just watched that video and he does bring up some good points and some that I feel he’s misinterpreting things slightly. I do agree that a lot of things in the movie defy Miguel’s logic of canon events and that there has to be something else to it. The stuff he brings up about earth 42 is interesting cause that timeline seems to retroactively fix itself to work without the existence of a Spider-man. Maybe it’s due to that spider being needed for the events of 1610? So the multiverse balances things out. Also the India thing also is a good point but that could be another case of the multiverse attempting to course correct due to a distribution but then miles stopped the course correction leading to a break. Now I don’t agree with the Miguel has to be lying theory or idea I just think it’s kinda stupid storytelling wise and in terms of his character doesn’t make sense to me. I think in beyond the spider-verse there will be a grander explanation of how this all works the true way it all works and that Miguel only has half the story and is working with the best of what he’s been given. Could be the potential introduction of Mademe Web to explain all this who knows. I don’t think it’s a plot hole as much as I think it’s a simple we have to wait and see with the next movie and I have faith they’ll handle it well.
@6STONES_ART Thanks for checking it out. Excited to learn more about this character. Hadn't heard of Mademe Web till l saw the comments on your video. Come to think of it, this might be the first video l found from your channel. Thanks again!
Finally, there are holes and missing data in the things he said to Miles. Do we know for sure what caused the Universe erasal? Are we sure that universe is erased? (Universes getting rebooted or fused also happen in the Marvel mythos.) Are we sure this wasn't a domino effect from the local Alchemax plant? There are too many variables at play. And many Doc Ocks and Jonathan Ohns around. We're not even sure if the increase of multiverse cracks were anomalies fall are not the doing of Miguel himself by opening the Spider-Society or yet another entity we completely overlooked.
Miles is not free from the canon, he's still part of it because the pattern of tragedy that happens in every single Spiderman life is happening to him, if Miles saves his dad, not only the universe can collapse, but he can be in an eternal rewind time cycle in that each occasion or circumstance he saves his Dad from dying, other horrible thing happen to Miles or either one other Innocent people he also care about(just like in Life Is Strange)
I love the spiderverse films, both, but l don't play the games. *shrugs* Being Spiderman is tough. Reminds me of being Christian. I've been seeing some Miles theories justifying his side but while watching the movie in theaters, I kept nodding when Miguel stated his case. Just saying. Miles has become Spiderman, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Miguel is both scary and capable of lying so there's that. Can't wait to see part 2!
My friend mentioned spiderman 2099 turning like evil or being bad, at least that I thought he made it sound like. But Miguel is an antagonist and he is right miles is the cause of the multiversal problem and he isn't really supposed to exist. A whole world was lost
Miles didn't choose to be bitten by the 42-spider. But he did choose to be the next Spiderman, and that the only choice that matters. If Miles hadn't met and inspired Peter B, Mayday would have never been born. Heck, if Miles hadn't succeeded to the first Spiderman, the other Spiders would have died trying to stop the Collider. This would have left 7 orphanated Universes. Miguel is trying to put order in nature, but destiny/fate did the heavy lifting from the beginning.
I believe Miguel is right but he went about it wrong. Let Miles try and save his dad and let him get the death speech (with great power speech), and become Spider-Man truly.
Absolutely. The real reason that people side with Miles is arrogance. Because Spiderman is to most people who watch anything related to it, a distraction from how dull and full of disliked limitations their real lives are, and when they see a version of Spiderman that says firmly "No." to the insane childish optimism that normal Spiderman embody, their inner Childs refuse to accept it.
Miguel broke Canon everyone disappeared. Miles broke Canon, a spot appeared, so did Miles break canon?Canon? Also where did all those spots go. Why was Peter with Miguel? Who is Lyla, not a spider-woman.
So why does Peter Parker from the old animated series get to keep his Uncle Ben? The Uncle Ben that persuaded another Peter Parker to overcome and unbond from the carnage symbiote when he was Spider Carnage.
If Miguel was right, the whole first movie shouldn’t have happened as soon as Miles was bitten by the spider from earth 42. Those 2 universes should’ve collapsed or imploded.
Yeah but peter b parker losing his wife was also a canon event. But he got back with her after his interaction with miles. Miguel tried to interfere with another universe which is why it got destroyed i think. Just like how miles interfered with spiderman india’s universe. I feel like canon events can be changed but only by the spiderman of that universe
Yea but miles isn’t a direct anomaly like Miguel was being in a whole different universe miles was originally from there the spider wasn’t. Just like Miguel except the Spider died
Even though I side with Miles and it's clear the movie wants you too as well. The What If involving Dr. Strange is a perfect example to why Miguel's view may have some legitimacy, as it shows how being too determined to fix things can have drastic consequences.
Miles can defy the cannon because he was never meant to be spiderman. Miguel told him as much but didn't actually think through, that this makes Miles different. Miguel would be right in every other case. Most people who saw the movie didn't even consider this possibility and it's obvious, because their arguments are so emotional. Miguel doesn't want the entire universe erased... must be racist. Miguel warns Miles of the risk... He's just projecting. NO. If this was the correct Miles who was meant to be Spider-Man Miguel would be right.
I think Miguel is just making an excuse for a mistake he made what probably happened in Mubhattan and 2099B was some other force that caused an excursion like in MOM
When he told miles he doesn't belong here for some reason I felt offended by that. To me it felt like the times people didn't like miles cuz he wasn't Peter.
I actually sides with Miles completely Miguel doesn't know much about Canon to think that he is 100 percent right because Miles broke canon and his world is not destabilizing
Another thing; on the topic of why so many Spider-people are okay with going along with this; is that this Society acts like a giant coping mechanism for all of them. It's easier for them to go on in life believing that what happened to them & their loved ones, happened because it was supposed to and was always going to happen rather than knowing that it happened because they failed and it is squarely on them. They probably can't deal with that, especially the older Spider-people that have lost so much and so many; so they will fight to defend their false sense of security because it's the only thing keeping them going.
I didn't see the movie but I think that the spider people believe that miles trying to save his dad would cause a universe to die
@@ShockwaveSoundwave-z2mit feels extremely cultish. From what I've heard it's more that they believe it ends worlds than actually concrete knowing it. At this point I'm expecting it to turn out that they're actually responsible for killing people to maintain the canon.
There's also selection bias in play as well. The spider society is a big club house for spider-men who agree with Miguel. Any who don't (other than Hobie who is impossible to nail down) probably either told him to get bent or were simply never contacted in the first place. The multiverse is infinite. So obviously there would be an infinite number of spider-people who are on Miguel's side. There would also be an infinite number who are not.
Also, if Miguel is right most spider-men who told him to get bent probably got erased when their timeline got eaten by the "metaphor for capitalism"
Except every single one of them has lost their uncle. That in it of itself is evidence of Canon events. Why would the exact same thing happen to billions of spider-man if it's not pre determined?
@@JudgeHoldenUwU i think it's wishy washy,
just one completely one not completely the other but some complicated inbetween.
I love it cause their both right! They’re both standing for something completely valid!
100% agree. One of the many reasons I love this movie so much
@@6STONES_ART it’s like when last of us 2 came out Abby and Ellie had good reasons even though I’m biased
I think Miguel is a good guy he's just looking out for universe
True. He's a bit unhinged by his trauma and has a violent way of coping (being so rough with miles because he sees himself in him as he's making the same mistakes he made, and he's angry at himself for erasing "his" family by breaking canon) but his heart is in the right place. I still think there's more to the canon events that Miguel doesn't know about
He's a good guy but he's also the film's antagonist. Some people get confused when they see a person antagonizing the main character and mistake that for them being the villain. I think that's why so many people forget he's a hero, just like Miles.
Agreed. He is trying to save it because he has seen the damage it can cause. He knows because he’s done it. To ensure that it doesn’t happen again there needs to be a society to ensure that it doesn’t
I agree he’s trying to do what he thinks is best but I don’t agree with how he’s trying to go about it.
@@PumkinSyrup what else is there for him to do about it? It would appear that this is the only way. Unless there is something that causes others to not have the canon like Gwen’s dad quitting to be Captain which stops the canon and his fate isn’t death.
I would only listen to Miguel because I’m not getting my ass kicked by that man, that man is scary
Good point. I should’ve put that in the video better than all the points I made haha
Nah it’s still a good video haha
Lol same 😂
Probably the coolest Spidermen antagonist in the entire mcu. But I feel Miguel o hara is mostly an anti hero honestly
Don’t forget the hyphen
This is another case of BOTH sides being right. Miles saying "Spidey Always" is a weird take when he literally watched his Uncle Die...so clearly not always and his Peter died too and didnt save the day so yh
Good and bad things happen in life which makes people want to go back and fix it like Miles who learn from mistakes and great loss and try to become perfect like Miguel
Very good point
Yes I agree but he didn't really know peter closely
I feel like by the end the line will be "Spidey Always TRIES" like how how the first movie hammered in that spiderman always gets back up, this one is saying "yeah spiderman doesn't always succeed, but he always tries to do the right thing."
@@ChelseaSmitherson yup I agree but I think both sides are trying to do what they think is right
Honestly part of what makes this movie so great is neither Miles nor Miguel is completely wrong. They just have different philosophies. They're both right about different aspects (and probably also wrong about different aspects).
I'm a firm believer that in order for them to save the day in the third film, both Miguel and Miles are going to have to figure out how to reconcile these two philosophies and work together.
It's funny so many people don't see this but it's nice seeing I'm not alone in siding with Miguel.
Yeah, one wants to save everyone but the other just wants to save one.
I agree and was about to comment the same thing! Philosophically I agree with Miguel, it just makes more sense to do the thing that will save the most people, but that doesn't mean that Miles is "wrong" for wanting to save his dad even if it goes against the canon. My theory though is that Miguel is wrong about canon events in some way, and that Miles will be able to save his dad without destroying his universe and in doing so he will show Miguel that some canon tragedies can actually be prevented. No idea if that's correct or not it's just what I think may happen!
@@sims4savefile-dh7yo nah, miles should be learning about the responsibility of power and shit. He'll probably lose his mom if not his dad. You need a sacrifice. Miles is right to want to save his dad but wrong to think it's okay to sacrifice the multiverse to save him since if universe collapses his dad will still die. Miles is dumb!!
I want one out of 2 outcomes to be true. Either Miles screws up so badly he has no choice but to let his father die, or have Miguel and Miles come to terms with each other and realize they both have good points.
I just wish it won't be "Miles is 100% right because he's the main protagonist and Miguel is wrong". That would be pretty boring.
agree and would just shit on peter parker even more so it would seem like peter isnt good spiderman at all and miles is the best one
I think Miguel mistook Incursions from Canon Events. The "canon" has been broken in several universes already, and yet those are still intact without the Slider Society's intervention. What Miguel did was more in line with an Incursion, he stayed in another universe too long that his footprint got big enough to trigger the annihilation that was mentioned and seen in MoM.
It’s unlikely to be incursions due to all the spider people living in Miguel’s universe for a minimum of a few months but realistically is about 2 years. If it was an incursion that would mean that his universe should have been destroyed age’s ago especially considering other spider people can come and go without much issue.
@@epicsavagebros7400 maybe incurion didnt happen on miguel earth because them wearing the watches stoped it from happening
I think it’s interesting to note as many people have pointed out that canon has broken in world 42 and in mile’s world, as well as gwen’s, along with all of the talk of “cake and eating it too” it feels like the whole idea is that he needs to do this on his own and resist authority, not to mention that Miguel looks and sounds different from his post credits scene, Miguel actually seems to be reacting extremely harshly to what he perceives to be his fault, although we’re probably missing key context on that universe (would it be 2099B?)
This is incorrect largely seeing as the universe probably has rules in play to a certain extent but not all the way. Like “SPIDERMAN has to go through the police captain close to him dying” but in Earth 42 there never was a spider-man. It never says GWENS dad has to die, so he quits and doesn’t. I feel like there are loopholes and such where you can get around some stuff but the rules still apply. I DO feel like Miles specifically wouldn’t have to abide by those rules though seeing as the og spider of his dimension probably already went through all that stuff already. Miles is in a unique position where he’s technically past all of their stories on spider-man, so he’s technically writing a whole new story. This leaves it up to him to create new “canon events” or entirely scratch the whole thing. Miles is the only one with a chance of breaking the canon or creating new ways for these events to play out since he’s the second spider and the first spider already had all that stuff happen in his universe
Redesigns happen
I think it's due to Spot in unironically absorbing all of that dark matter. Think each universe is kinda like a Forrest with branches and trees and all sorts of plant and animal mucking about. Now picture dark or antimatter being a powder keg or like a huge pile of dynamite. When a canon event is altered it causes ripples of energy which sets off dark matter or antimatter causeing a huge explosion something that could cause space itself to collapse in on itself. And since the multiverse is like a Forrest everyone is at risk of blowing up or in this case imploding. Spot having gone and sucked up a whole lot of dark matter has kinda fixed thibgs while also become a really big problem. He's basically an emotionally unstable MOAB capable of causing entire universes to collapse in on themselves. That's my thoughts tho probably wrong
@@error8119 this is wrong gwen literally showed us she realized why miguel is wrong her dad didn't have to die maybe the loopholes thing is right but that's doubtful sicne her dad was captain and didn't die this is also a theroy
This whole cannon event thing could just probably not be real and only happening because of something wrong with the multiverse these are all just theroys
@@hammer-0 exactly. The universe might have certain rules in place, otherwise why tf do the same thing keep happening over and over again exactly the same way for every spider-man? This doesn’t mean the rules are 100% set in stone though. Like maybe the situation has to happen but if the spider-man can save the captain himself it’ll be alright. Like maybe you just can’t get help from outsiders during those situations
Most people backing Miles are just naive. Now while I do agree that Miles should be allowed to save his dad but existing as an Anamoly he already created a multiversal GOD, I can understand why Miguel doesnt trust his existence
You realize literally every other Spider would have done the same thing in Miles's shoes, right? And it's less about naivety and more about the fact that trying to bind an anomaly to some strict code for normals is kinda dumb.
@@laststrike4411 your acting like its some arbitray rule when yhey literally pulled up 100s of Spidermen going through the SAME events. In research multiole events reocurring isnt a COINCEDENCE. Its a probability and the level to which it reoccurs raises said probability. Miles dad may not die...but hes gonna lose someone FOR SURE in the next movie
@@laststrike4411naw miles isn't willing to accept that actions have consequences
@@no.1spidey-fan182i doubt that sense he the one who who could stop the spot
Oh, Also, people believe a canon event was broken in Gwen's world when her father quits the force, but I don't think that's true. The canon REALLY is, something happens that causes a "Captain" to no longer be Captain. Usually it's their deaths, BUT Gwen's dad quitting being captain still has the same result. That key person now is NO LONGER a Captain, thus satisfying the fine print of canon. Meaning canon events still have to happen, but not necessarily to the letter in the way they they typical do. They may be able to manipulate canon events by being creative with with how the parameters of it are meet.
Canon events seem to very specifically ape the events of Spider-Man 616's life meaning that the Captain Canon event would almost certainly have to be a death.
We just can't really say for certain if miguel's right or not depends on how the writers wanna go with it
I mean yes as is the case with every story ever. I’m just working with what we’ve been given also I’m more discussing how it’s logical to side with Miguel rather than him being definitively “right” despite the thumbnail hahaha
@@6STONES_ART About 51 minutes into the movie I found the conversation between Hobbie Brown and Miles very interesting. Hobbie is grabbing up stuff to make a watch that will later go to Gwen. Hobbie also says he is only there to look out for his drummer which is Gwen. He tells Miles to make your own watch which tells me Hobbie thinks Miles is also capable of making a watch. Lastly Hobbie warns Miles not to sign up for anything until he knows who he is fighting. Then we see Miguel's computer screens with images of Spot, Spider-Punk and one of Gwen and Miles on top of the roof at the party looking at Gwen's watch. Hobbie doesn't seem to trust Miguel and I feel it is more then the fact Hobbie is a punk who doesn't like authority. The first movie had a lot of foreshadowing so I am sure this one does to. Miguels anger to Miles is very personnel. I watched the movie 3 times did Miguel loose his universe before, during or after Kingpin started up his collider?
@@steventrofka7783Miguel losing that universe happens between the movies. In the post credits scene of the first we see him getting the first watch, so it's before he started going between universes.
@@steventrofka7783 It is highly unlikely Miguel is attempting to do anything evil. Miles is the one who is risking countless lives to potentially save one. What he is doing is madness and he made it worse for himself by following Gwen so now he must deal with the truth and that’s a fate worst than anything he could imagine.
@@epicsavagebros7400 This is Miles story, he is the main character not Miguel, and it is just a story. There is a lot of things about Miguel that the movie didn't explain. He blames a kid for the collider and becoming spider man. Then he blames Gwen personally for not catching Miles instead of himself. I believe when the next movie comes out it will show Miguel is hiding something. Miles is the main character and hero of this story. Gwen is also a main character. Miguel is just an antagonistic.
fate and destiny is not always clear. If Miles from 1610 is not meant to be Spider-Man, is it then a mistake that he become Spider-Man, or is that fate that he becomes one? I understand Miguel's intentions but not everything is set in stone or is a mistake.
I agree. I don’t think Miguel has it fully figured out. He’s definitely figured out a good chunk and clearly has done a lot of good but when it comes to Miles I think he’s missing a few things to gain the full picture
Are we talking about the comics or movies? Because Miles in the comics 1610 didn't have an interdimensional spider bite him, it was an Oz spider that bites him, and he became Spider-Man that way.
While Earth 1610 in the moives is caused by the enterdimensional Spider. But different versions of Miles are meant to become Spider-Man regardless, but this one particular version of him in the movies isn't.
@@UnlimitedIvory movie
@Jam-frog35 but you said 616, which is the main comic universe
@@UnlimitedIvory oh....whoops. thanks for the correction.... that's embarrassing.
Finally someone sees this exactly the way I do! Preach! I saw those very same complaints from the host on the Spider-Man Crawlspace, calling the Spider Society a Cult and the down graded their rating for the movie because they didn't believe other Spider-Men would agree with letting someone die, in the interest of the many. And I said the exact same thing about, it's obvious both visually and in what Miguel says about trying to find another way many times and failing, that they obviously had been TRYING to do both and failed and it's implied more universes when kaput. That's why they have tech to at least slow the effects. As it is, we don't even know what the final result of Spider-Man India's homeworld is going to be other than we left it with a huge hole forming. I believe the fact Miles is an anomaly and his general story is dramatically different from other Spider-Men (He having both his birth parents while none of the other Spider-Men have that) makes him in some way uniquely attuned to deal with this situation. HIs power set being different from other Spider-Men (and they keep saying he's been working on expanding his electric powers), that's going to play into the finale in some way.
He has a good reason for why he's so mad, he literally had his family die in his universe so he went to another one where he was dead, and he learned the hard way. I think he's just trying to warn miles, Miguel never actually hurt miles until near the end where he had to because miles wouldn't listen.
He never talked about his life before he went to another universe where his other self was killed he just showed up found his other self dead & inserted himself into that life. Miguel is hiding things from everyone he's being very shady.
I think Miguel is misguided in his theories of what a canon event is because he assumes that a certain event change that he made is what caused the collapse rather than it might happen to be something else but it turns out that it just happen to be a result of something else. In the wider lore, there are some universes where these so called 'canon events' didn't happen and the world was still in tact. There is a universe out there where a Spiderperson didn't lose their 'Uncle Ben' but it's just Miguel hadn't found one yet and Miles 1610 might be proof that he is actually one example of one such world.
Well what Miles is trying to do is break the cycle which he thinks he can be god
@@srstriker6420i wouldn’t go that far but he could be a small exception
Lets not forget the existance of madame web who hasnt appeared yet (she maybe could help) , and Miles said in the movie that he wanted to search for an alternative, obviously he doesnt actually know about madame web and the original universe where all spiders who bite spidermans come from, but even though Miguel is technically right as of now, in the end Miles is indeed correct there might be ways to save everyone but the characters havent discovered those ways yet.
I am curious if they will do Madame Web. They already got a lot of plot points to handle in Beyond the spider-verse.
I thought they killed her in the comics?
Miguel didn't avoid the Canon Event of his universe, he pulled a Rick Sanchez to undo a Canon Event that already happened. That is what caused the unravelling. I believe, Miguel is causing more unravellings by stopping Spiders from even trying to safe people. Yes, Spider-Man will occassionally fail to safe somebody, and sometimies that results in somebody close to him dieing. But Spider-Man will ALWAYS try, will always do his bets to safe every single person. Saving people is more impiortant than stopping the villain. He can stop villains any time of day, and yes, sometimes time is tight. But he will always take those seconds out of the fight to at the very least TRY to safe somebody. That is why Peter saved Miles while fighting Goblin in the collider room. Just sitting on his hands and doing nothing while somebody is about to get crushed is a much greater risk to the Canon Event than succeeding in actually saving them.
I’m sure that the Yuri Lowenthal incarnation of Peter Parker is with Miguel O’Hara because he had to sacrifice Aunt May for all of New York, thus he understands Miguel’s whole philosophy of putting the needs of the many above the needs of the few.
I just hate people who hate on Miguel/Gwen etc bc that’s just so black and white thinking, both sides have very valid points imo
Agreed
Siding with Miguel makes sense in terms of wanting to play it safe.
That being said, there is the possibility that Spider 42 going into Miles’ dimension and biting him was according to the main timeline.
Even from the perspective of the more skeptical members of the Spider Society, they've seen increasingly coincidental occurances that are helping build causality between breaking canon and these catastrophic events.
The other thing you have to consider is that they are likely still making progress in investigating this phenomenon and while everyone *wants* to save their loved ones, simply saying "F it." and breaking canon anyways when this situation is already so delicate is not the way to go.
It's sad and seems like a harsh sacrifice to make in the meantime, but given the stakes, it 100% makes sense that at least at this staged, nobody would be on board with Miles wildin out and going to save *his* dad as if nothing else or matters or there's nothing else to consider.
Miguel should've approached the situation differently instead of doing all of that
I agree
Idk…the whole concept of canon events is in direct contrast with the multiverse don’t you think? I mean, the basis of the multiverse is that every choice, every event isn’t set in stone but from that choice/event springs a new timeline in witch things have gone differently.
If an event is canon than there is on multiverse; in the movie the concept of canon is related to every single timeline independently but that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me cuz it’s implying that the different timelines haven’t originated from some events going differently.
It seems to me a lot of Spider-Man aren’t thinking, rather blindly thrusting Miguel cuz everything in Miles universe isn’t canon anymore since the spider is from Earth-42 (i guess it’s 42..) and the same thing applies to Prowler Miles’ universe.
What's wrong with Miguel's theory is that it has been disproven by people like miles AND peter since May-day's birth should have destroyed peter B universe since it was only because of miles that mayday was even conceived
The writers made it so Miguel is wrong whether they meant to or not. He explains how canon events need to happen and changes are anomalies that shouldn’t exist. Miguel explained how miles shouldn’t have become Spider-Man which lead to spot being created which makes spot and everything he does anomalies. And we see that Jeff is going to die because Spot kills him. So Jeff’s death should be an anomaly and Miguel should be trying to help miles save his dad instead of trying to make sure Jeff dies because his death isn’t a canon event
miguiel fans when the cannon event is also a anomaly:
Miles already went through the canon event with his uncle dying. There is no reason why he can't save his dad
I can't really see why people would disagree with Miguel tbh
with the words miguel says yeah makes sense its miles' dad or the entire 1616 universe easy choice! buuut we forget that just because its what miguel said doesnt mean hes fully correct or fully understands what canon events and anomalies are he could be getting tunnel vision due to his own experiences and guilt, ignoring all the evidence to him being wrong, or never seeking it out in the first place
@@Silva-avliS The points in the video are pretty good, considering we literally see a blackhole forming from Miles saving captain Singh in Pavitr Prabhakar's universe and disrupting the timeline. Also mentioned is the fact that immediately spidermen are on scene with containment procedures in place implying that this isn't their first rodeo, they've experienced canon breaks before and they've had enough time to study how to contain them from destroying universes. I don't see how every single one of these spidermen would lie to Miles about canon events being dangerous, doesn't make sense
Spider-man has been told countless times that what he believes in is wrong or a bad idea. But he does what "He" believes is right. that's who Peter Parker is. it's like people forget "one more day" happened. God told him he was wrong and he still did what he believed was right for his aunt may. current storline of the comic is peter fighting his friends to save MJ.
Because he technically is. While Miguel is right and it ACTUALLY fits the spider-man logic more than it seems from what we’ve seen different spidermen choose to do, it’s also wrong in a sense. It has a lot to do with Miles being the rule breaker in most of his forms throughout the multiverse. Miles is never a regular spider. He always has extra powers, he always acts different, he’s the most likely one to NOT follow that story to a tee. He’s wrong not because his logic isn’t sound, it’s because Miles operates on different logic. It’s also just crazy to tell someone to let their dad die, like even with the logic that’s not something you can ask of a 15 year old child, you give him the chance to try. That’s a dimension you just prepare to save. Miles is also the only one who is in a universe where every canon event has already passed within it. We don’t know if he HAS to follow that storyline anyway. It’s sound logic but at the same time there’s a lot of holes in that logic because of the specific person we’re talking about.
Yeah it’s like I said at the end of the video as much as I can see why most spider-men would side with Miguel due to reasons stated I don’t think Miguel is 100% right. Especially when it comes to miles, I believe he’s tunnel visioned to believe that due to Miles being the original anomaly he thinks him breaking his canon event has even worse side effects than most. Feel like one way he justifies that logic is the anomaly of miles leads to the direct creation of The Spot a villain who has now become a Multiversal threat. All of this I think stops Miguel from seeing how Miles could be a positive and not a constant negative.
I don’t know if anyone has pointed this out but if the Spot was the one that caused all that stuff in Spider-Man India’s earth then that would mean he was causing a canon event if his destruction was going to kill the captain.
I think Miguel's point of view makes perfect sense, and it makes sense for other spider-mans agree with him. BUT, I think he is wrong, in various accounts. He is wrong in that he is making many assumptions about how this all works, I mean, he believes Miles is an anomaly, but is he? It's implied that the Miles at the end was supposed to be spider-man, so atleast one Miles was supposed to be Spiderman, secondly, if he is an anomaly, how come neither of the two Miles worlds are breaking down, or even Gwen's after his father retired. He is also wrong as a Spider-man, and all the other spider people on his side are too, because the point of spider-man is saving people and doing the right thing even if it's dangerous, every life matters. All the spider-man's accept Miguel's point because of their own trauma, because it's easier to accept the death of their loved ones thinking it's necessary. I believe, in a sick way, they are more willing to accept this deaths because it's people related to them instead of an innocent bystander that has nothing to do with any spider-man, I believe that is because of the trauma they all carry. Miguel is the worst one, I think he is filled with so much guilt about what happened to him that he is overcorrecting doing things to satiate his guilt, he has given up, he isn't looking for a way to save everyone, he is only looking for things to stay as they are, instead of improving them and trying to save more people, he is only preventing people doing what he did instead of trying to actually save the multiverse and all it's people. Which is understandable, but still the wrong solution. Spider-man should always try to save any person even if it puts the whole universe at risk, because that is what makes them a hero, otherwise, there is no point of Spider-man to exist at all.
This may be true but I guess we will see with the next movie because I feel as if something will happen to Miles’s world if he does save his dad
Perfectly said.
The right answer is not always the logical one.
Ngl, Madam Web wouldn’t let that slide, I feel like she would look for other options to break the canon or at least look for one. Mostly since she’s a literal SPIDER-GOD. Also I feel like some other Spider-Men would’ve tried to help Miles, one of them being Insomniac Spider-Man. Mostly since he HAS a miles in his dimension and he could tell what THIS one is going through, and would try and make this in a peaceful way. Another is maybe the 1997 Animated Series Spider-Man and The Amazing Spider-Man of the Shadow Dimension universe/Edge of time. They both have time travel adventures and know how it is. I’d say Spider-Man unlimited MAYBE but I can’t really say the same for spectacular. I know 616 Peter WOULD try to reason with Miguel but to no avail. But once again they would TRY but they would maybe be hoarded by the other spidermen. I also find it kinda stupid how the alternate universe Spider-Men is just 616 peters other outfits, yet it’s fair since there’s not a lot of things you can add to a spider society. One final thing is Ben Riley, I WISH HE WORE HIS SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN SUIT, but hey I’m still glad to see him
As much as I agree some of those spider-men might of tried it could very much be the case that they did try in the past or witnessed other spider-men try and they’ve seen the result which were tragic. Considering it seems they’ve stopped enough canon event breaks to have fully developed technology to stopping a timeline from breaking and seem to have full routines for said situations it must of happened a fair amount of times. Then there is also the super simple real world answer of not enough screen time to dedicate to that many Spider-Men sharing altering views. Only so much you can do with said time and budget
Some people brought this up to me before, but insomniac peter siding with Miguel kind of makes sense. At first I thought it was completely out of character for him not to side with miles. But he has been in a situation a lot like this one. He had to choose between saving may or saving all of New York. He knew the right choice was saving everyone, and so did May. So in the end, that's what he did. Now, Miles is in a very similar situation where his choice seems to be his loved one or everyone. Insomniac peter has heard the stakes and most likely sides with Miguel because he's already been through it himself
@@xmant8842 true ngl
@@6STONES_ART fair enough, yet my only complaint with the movie is how Miguel's logic makes no sense, especially considering the events of ITSV. Yet, only time could tell what happens in the next movie
Insomniac peter would not side with miles he let may die to save new York he'd see it as the greater good.
Miguel said that Miles wasn't meant to be Spiderman. Maybe it was timing since spider 42 was taken away before it bit Miles 42. However, Miguel didn't have the same story the average Spiderman has. He wasn't bitten by a spider, he don't even have spidey senes! They aren't the same. Besides, there are other Spidermen who didn't follow the same key story pieces.
Right?! Surely if there is a 'canon' then part of that canon would be being bitten by a radioactive spider. And yet our three prime antagonists (not bad guys, just antagonists) weren't bitten by spiders. Their related traumas have just made them relate to the Spiderman experience. I think this is a big part of why they are the fiercest protectors of this idea of "Spiderman".
Thing is though, do we know it would have Bitten Miles 42, or would it have bitten a Peter Parker in 42's world who also was in the class with him? I don't believe any Miles was meant to be a Spider-Man at all. Remember, the 42 dimension must also have a Peter Parker somewhere.
@@Ebonyleopardno there this shot in the movie when the spot is explaining how the he brought a spider from earth 42 to there earth and it’s shows a kid with braids doing school work about to be bit before a portal open up and the spider disappears just pay close attention when you watch the movie again and you’ll catch it
miguel is legit a half spider half human, he's more biologically related to a spider
Miguel's story is different is because he's the "Spiderman of 2099". A Peter Parker already existed and fulfilled those story beats. But this means there can be multiple variations of Miguel as there are Peter variations. Unfortunately they rarely interact, either because those futures never matured to the year 2099 or that Miguel variant died in action (the only time a Miguel variant interacted with another, he was killed in seconds front of the main line Miguel).
My question is if Miles did the same thing that Miguel did and replaced someone in their canon, how come his universe wasnt erased? Is that why Miguel resents Miles, because he cant figure that out? If so, that means he hasnt done enough research to know everything and might be letting Miles' dad die for nothing
Wasn’t really sure where else to say this but thank you all for the love and interaction on this video. I was not expecting this to blow up at all it was just a little rant I wanted to get out there. It’s been great having so many respectful discussions with you about this topic and I hope we can continue this in future videos I make. 3k views for a simple 100 sub channel is wild. Thank you all again.
Video just hit 10k views! You guys are insane!
People siding with miguel are just wrong say what you want about the multiverse or anything like that because miles whole thing is like you said I can do both it doesn't matter if a whole universe has to go down what's important is not allowing someone to suffer or die because you do nothing if miguel doesn't get that he doesn't know the first thing about being spiderman (edge of time reference)
"so we're just supposed to let people die! Because some algorithm says that's supposed to happen?! U realize how messed up that sounds right?"
“You have the choice between saving one person and saving an entire world, every world.”
@@6STONES_ART
Then don't take that choice from him in the first place.
That alone makes Miguel wrong. (And hints that he might have restricted other spider-people and constricted them to obey to their respective canons.)
The web of life and destiny intersects, but the differences are also valid.
Occurrences even repeated ad nauseam are not universal laws.
Even Lyla underlines that the whole canon schematic is still a theory, but Miguel is using it to shield himself from his trauma and contaminating the other spiders with it.
I finally saw the movie 2 days ago thanks to my cousin. The movie was damn outstanding!!!!! I understand both Miguel and Miles’ points; they are both right. Miguel is not in the wrong but I can’t blame Miles for going against this.
I'll have to wait and see how the sequel plays out before I judge.
Fate narratives kinda suck in a lot of ways, but at the same time "defying fate" narratives tend to annoy me just as much, when it's about finding some random loophole in how the mechanic was set up.
I think it's safe to say that Miles is gonna save his dad in the next movie. It just narratively wouldn't make sense otherwise.
But I hate the idea of, after all that having Miguel and every Spider-Man who believed him look like a big fucking idiot, and only Miles was smart enough to defy the canon.
Miguel goes like "Oops. Guess there must have been a slight misunderstanding in my theory that the entire conflict was built upon lmao. Hope you can forgive me, Miles" and everyone teams up together to fight the Spot.
Idk, we'll have to wait and see. Just really don't like the idea of it all turning out to have been a false theory at the end
Spoilers:
I understand how they all have emotional incentive to agree with him but Miguel's logic is off.
If canon events are things that are always supposed to happen, then how does miles, an anomaly, have a canon event. How is he even part of the spiderverse in the first place, and how is spot canon if he depends on miles to be created. Also wouldn't the spot be the first anomaly since he creates miles and he wasn't supposed to. It just doesn't add up
These are all things I think Beyond The Spider-verse will address and Miguel will figure out.
Miguel's entire theory seems to be based on the idea that if someone is a version of Spider-Man certain bad things have to happen to them or else the universe collapses.
So, if someone is a Spider-Man then you have canon events even if you only became a Spider-Man due to some dimensional fuckery.
It makes next to no sense that dimensional stability would be based on that specifically but that's what Miguel's theory seems to be.
MIGUEL DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT INCURSIONS. MIGUEL DID NOT DISRUPT A CANON, BUT HE STAYD IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE. THAT CAUSES INCURSIONS. MIGUEL MISINTERPRETED THE PROBLEM.
right
Here are the problems I had with Miguel’s argument:
1. He himself is also an anomaly. He was never bitten by a radioactive creature. He got his powers because someone screwed with his work. He doesn’t belong there either.
2. He actively tried to make sure that Miles wouldn’t even be present for his “Canon Event.” The whole point of the “Sacrifice” argument is that there has to be a CHOICE, and to make that choice a spider-person had to be there for that event. The reason those “Canon Events” hold power over Spider-folk is because they occurred in spite of their best efforts.
3. I have a huge problem with Miguel’s modus operandi. To show up, render aid, and withdraw that aid at a crucial moment is ethically effed up.
4. Miguel doesn’t actually know what happens when “Canon Events” don’t happen. He’s an anomaly - right down to the choice he made regarding the alternate universe family incident. The sample size was too small.
5. Miguel comes off as defeatist. Even if something is doomed to fail, you still have to try.
I came out of that movie wondering how Miguel was even allowed to be considered a Spider-Man, let alone a hero. He’s just a crab in a bucket.
Its not about the spider bite, ITS about events and motion(note that Im not siding with Miguel here) . The Canon he refers to are not about the spider biting (there are other spiders out there that have diferent origins than Peter Parker 616) . The Canon is about events and situations, like one spider already existing in Miles universe(blonde Peter) and Peter taking HIS place with a spider that was supposed to bite Earth 42 Miles). By "stealing" that Miles spider and effectively changing 1610 world by "making" Peter got killed and 42 Miles don't becoming Spider Man, he essentialy changed events that would occur normally.
Yeah, Im not saying Miguel I,s right, Im Just explaining what he meant
@@Spid4r1 I see your point. And it is a good point. Even within the context of all of that, the way that he obtained his powers still matters. The cornerstone of Spider-Society is the shared experience. Isn't it odd that the three people we see at the top are O'Hara, Riley, and Drew (none of whom were bitten)? When his argument hinges on the presumption of a shared experience, it falls apart when his experience is different on a fundamental level. It's kind of like 8 Mile (and I can't believe I'm referencing that movie). Eminem's character is under attack in the rap battles because his skin color. The opponent (I think his name was "Clarence") does this to invoke a presumption of shared experience with the crowd. This backfires when Eminem's character points out that not only is Clarence not from there, but he comes from a home that isn't broken and is pretty well-off.
Miguel has saved literal universes. It’s noted in the movie that his actions have saved multiple timelines which would have otherwise collapsed killing billions. In the movie you watched, his tech and the society he formed prevented the annihilation of Spider Man India’s universe. He’s more of a hero than Miles or Peter Parker or Gwen.
He may be proven “wrong” in the final movie, but to this point no Spider-Man alive has saved more people than Miguel.
@@wilkic2 Except we don't actually know any of that. He doesn't know any of that. He saw a grand total of ONE universe fall apart (due to his own immoral actions, by the way), went "no more," and took it upon himself to go on a crusade across the multi-verse. Of course his data would indicate that he "saved" those universes. He doesn't have any actual data to show what happens without his intervention - just simulations. There is a very real possibility that he's going around fixing stuff that doesn't actually need to be fixed. Moreover, there's also a very real possibility that his little canon-crusade is the root cause of all the multiversal problems.
And, even if what you posit is true, he still can't be a hero because the very building blocks of his actions still boils down to "show up, render aid, and do nothing at the crucial moment." That's still effed up.
And then, there's the matter of his death-cult-spider-society. It's built on the presumption of a shared experience. None of the members in the upper echelon of that society - not Miguel, not Drew, nor Riley - have the basic shared experience of how they got their spider powers in the first place. Miguel is a politician AT BEST, and a tourist keeping the gate at worst.
@@DashXero no. Wrong. He’s noted that they’ve gone to universes that were collapsing and his tech saved them. “Sometimes we haven’t been so lucky” when talking about stabilizing Indian Spider-Man’s world implies that sometimes they *have* been lucky and his tech stabilized those universes and stopped them from collapsing.
You saying “we’ll we don’t KNOW they would have collapsed” is silly. If a person has massive tumors in their body, we don’t KNOW if successful chemo saved them. We’re just 99.9% sure because we’ve seen what happens otherwise in other people.
The canon stuff is preventative medicine. His active medicine is his stabilizing tech. Sometimes that doesn’t work and universes die. So he enforced the canon to prevent that risk. Even if he’s entirely wrong about canon, he has gone to universes which were collapsing due to others’ actions and prevented a collapse events from expanding, saving billions of lives.
I think it was Film Theorist, or someone… who said it’s more likely that the issues the spider-verse is seeing is an incursion. Like in Dr Strange, having a person from a different universe come in for long periods of time (and making bigger and bigger changes) is what brings the universes together. So Miguel being in a different universe for so long is what caused the collapse, not the lack of canon events, which I think makes more sense. If Miles is an anomaly, then his universe should have collapsed by now, but because the spider from the other universe is dead and no longer making changes, the world is stable. Like other people have said, the point of the deaths in Spider-Man’s life is to teach him something e.g. with great power comes great responsibility, and simply letting his father die because it’s “canon” is not going to teach Miles whatever lesson he’s supposed to learn
I shall now shock you with the fact that I have watched the video but have not played any of the spider-man games and have only watched the Marvel and Spider-Verse films, none of the other Spider-Man movies. Is your brain blown? 😂😂
I've watched a bunch of videos going over this and I think the ultimate way the movie series is going to go about it is proving that there is something causing these incursions or breaks in reality. It probably will be something different than what Spider 2099 thought and it will hinge on what he does from there. He could double down or reevaluate and fix the problem correctly. They do have it set up well that you could see him going to either end of the spectrum.
This is the definition of "The more you f around , the more you find out.". Miguel f around by disrupting a certain event and he found out. So he's avoiding that and not letting it happen again. What if Miguel doesn't want Miles to experience the same thing and become another version of Miguel?
Accroding to DR Olivia Octavius while she explain it to King Pin in movie Into the Spider Verse
"If We Fire Again This Week THERE COULD BE BLACK HOLE UNDER BROOKLYN"
"the multiple dimention beginning to crash each other"
"What this means is there could be a rupture in the space time continuum"
So BLACK BLACK HOLE in MUMBATHAN in Pavitr dimension is Cause By SPOT Turning ON THE Giant Collider
and BLACK HOLE in Spot room Because of mini collider
So its not MILES Fault Break the Canon Event
MIGUEL Suit is GLITCHING when it got Venom Strike From MILES
SPOT not Glitching in Other Universe
I don't get why people call Miguel is a villain, he's not even a villain he's just trying to save Miles and his universe so he won't end up like him but he won't listen
Nah. Imma do my own thing
I don't believe the universe collapsed because of Miguel being there. I refuse to believe it was anything other than a coincidence, and something else caused it. Correlation does not always equal causation, and it was pretty clear to me that what happened in Pavitr's universe was a direct and obvious result of the Spot, not "breaking the canon." Until Beyond the Spider-Verse proves it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, I still say Miguel is wrong, and there is not enough "evidence" to say he's right as of now.
Like any Spider-Man or good person, he’s just trying to do what he believes is right. Everyone is more important than an individual. Miles and Hobie want both. And you know it’s a good movie when a movie sets up a moral dilemma and it has people talking that could go on for a year or years
the problem with Across The Spider-Verse's portrayal of Peter Parker is that Yes he can't save everyone......but he would still try. Every major version of Peter Parker would try to stop a death if they believed they could. I get the majority of spider people would follow SP2099's orders. we don't know them. they are made for the movie to be faceless masses. but any Known Spider-man (folks form any of the shows or movies) wouldn't blindly follow. we know their character. we know their compassion. Spider-man finds a way to do both....or at least tries.
I feel most spidermen also KNOWS though. Like we’ve seen spidermen be put in a situation where they HAVE to choose. When there is no doing both, when it’s someone close to them vs saving New York. We’ve seen Spider-man be put in that situation, we’ve seen him choose the masses. Yes spider-man WOULD try both, but when the risk for trying is your entire dimension ceasing to exist, it’s a little too big of a risk for most spidermen we’ve seen
@@error8119very good response basically said what I was going to say
Wow. Nice video! With explanation and also art it's AWESOME! Two thumbs up from me 👍😎👍
Thank you
Honestly, I'm pretty much on the Miguel side of things, because if I was on the same situation I'd do the same thing. I'm really not much of a fan of "I can save everyone because I can" due to how simplistic and naive it is. Being a hero isn't always glorious. There's always going to be a point where you need to make the hard choice. Sam Raimi's Spiderman 2002 really touched upon this when Green Goblin made Peter choose between saving Mary Jane and a bunch of kids trapped in a cable car. In that film, Peter was able to save both, but at the end of it he refuses to have a relationship with Mary Jane because he understands the dangers of being involved with him and how he can't always be there for her since he needs to do his responsibilities as a hero. That is a more compelling way to be heroic, and honestly gives more impact. Then again this is a kid's show, and I won't expect that kind of bittersweet conclusion since majority of young audiences would like it to be sunshine and rainbows.
Spider ham did said: u can’t always save everybody
Edit: 12:50 thought the same to?
Miguel didn't get bit by a spider
Nice video man 😀
If there were Spider-Men that disagreed with him then why would they be in the Spider-Society 😭
Miguel actually prioritise the safety of billions of people in multiverse over his own happiness but he took a wrong approach or way to do that.
Why did miguel even tell him about his dad
I feel like I’m 3rd movie we will find Miguel’s theory flawed . There was things wrong with the story . Like Miguel thing happened because he was literally replacing himself in another universe for a long period of time . And India universe it was spot doing that not the multiverse messing up
I agree I definitely think that’s one of the main things the 3rd movie will tackle.
Tom peter created multiple anomalies and I would say he caused more damage than miles ever caused and all miles wants to do is save his dad and tbh who wouldn’t I don’t think miles saving his father is going to risk the multiverse
1000th like, good job!
Ayo another wild milestone! Thank you for the support
I can definetly understand and even empathize Miguel, but I'm mainly on Miles's side because what Miguel did to destroy a universe was slightly different than how Miles supposedly would. Miguel replaced a dead counterpart of himself from an alternate dimension. Miles just wants to save his dad, and it doesn't involve any other universe, just his own.
You know, I was rewatching Steins Gate the other day, and I was thinking, what if Miles bg some miracle manages to save his father, by either some plot doohickey or by himself unknowingly sacrificing a universe or two, he manages to save his father. And then his father dies just the same (a la Mayuri style), in a catastrophic heart attack kinda thing?
It basically all Gwen's fault because she should have just focus on the mission.
The reason they all agree is because they have all lost the same people, that is evidence enough and is no coincidence
I think not all cannon events are the same for every Spider-Man. We know that Spider-Verse is hinted to be connected to the MCU, and in most alternative reality series there are variants where what we would see as cannon events for Spider-Man happen differently or never happened.
This makes those Spider-Man who come from universes where alternative cannon’s happen turn into completely different people. For example, there is a Spider-Man variant called Spider Assassin.
Spider Assassin is different because he starts killing people unlike most variants of Spider-Man who have a no kill rule and always tries to stop people from killing.
That makes him a very different person with very different core values but he’s still Spider-Man.
But if that happened to another version of Spider-Man that could lead to a Butterly effect where the universe does end up going to shit.
The cannon breaking could also not always lead to the same thing. Sometimes the universe could be intact but the timeline changes and the theme of the universe goes from happy to very dark, sometimes the universe breaks, sometimes Peter lives a life he’s not supposed to, sometimes people do things that go against who they were leading up to becoming like someone who was leading to become a hero turns out to be a villain.
There are even a Spider-Man variants where Peter is as rich as Tony Stark with his own company instead of the typical broke Peter.
Many of us could see Peter being broke as a cannon event because a lot of plot lines happen only because Peter is broke. So if he was never broke he never gets to go through those plot lines and come out the other end.
Which leads to a lot of things in that universe changing due to the butterfly effect of Peter being different but the universe is still intact.
Now if that was the case the Spider Societies job would be to fix a very specific type of broken cannon. The type where a universe is breaking or a character crosses into a universe they aren’t supposed to be in.
That is what they do in the show, but they never try to fix the universe where Mile’s spider comes from even though they know it exists and they probably know it’s still there intact.
They probably left Miles alone as long as they did because it’s not their job to step in when a universe isn’t breaking. It’s only their business when a universe is breaking or a character is in a universe they don’t belong in.
no because if Miguel said miles broke canon his universe and earth 42 shouldve been distroyed
I have some objections to this. The fact that this specific Miles is spiderman interrupted a canon event in another dimension and we clearly see the other dimension is fine (at least in the reality shattering sense, Miles being prowler isn't really fine I guess).
Another objection is that since these events are meant to make spiderman what he is, making Miles just accept his father's death would teach him nothing making that a canon breaking event: one thing is trying to save someone and failing another is not trying at all.
There is also another option to consider: since canon events make very little sci-fi sense, there might be another more "scientific" explanation. Since to break a canon event external knowledge is required, the simple fact that there are people from other dimensions present might be the cause for the shattering of reality. In other words the more they try to fix the problem the more they will have a problem.
But if Miguel was right, than how come Earth-1610 didn't collapse the moment Miles got bitten from the Spider that was transported from Earth-1610? Just a thought.
Miguel’s explanation of canon events would also validate the spider peoples traumas
If in your frame, it already happened, it's canon. If it hasn't happened yet, it's not "things that are, but things that could possibly be, that need not yet come to pass," as Charles Dickens once had Scrooge put it. Also, Miguel didn't save his own family. He merely stole them from the dead Miguel. And then failed to save that new family the same way he failed to save his previous family. For the same personal character flaw reasons. So he's no better than Kingpin.
Because it was a canon event for one version of you, doesn't mean it has to be a canon event for you in your specific instance, if it's not already the past.
Therefore, Miguel is wrong for wanting Jefferson to die. Miles is right in that respect. Yet, if Miles tried to go back in time to save Aaron, then Miguel would have had a valid point. Yet, Miles doesn't try to rewrite his own past to save Aaron. He only wants to save Jefferson.
This is why, in "A Centipede Once Again Saves the Spiderverse," Candi starts the resistance to Miguel long before Gwen and Hobie start one in the actual movie. She sees through Miguel a lot sooner, and already has a plan. Candi, for the record, has a MASSIVE wiki article documenting all her canon events. And she has a LOT of them! She knows not to attempt to rewrite her own history; but she's not going to let Miguel's speculation globe on her future stop her from doing what she believes is right. After all: she knows that if Aranman blesses her effort to alter the trajectory of her future, he'll allow her attempt at a For Want of a Nail to succeed. The original "canon event" will only happen if the Rod of Destiny is hard-set due to Aranman hard-willing it to happen.
Otherwise, the webs in the Web of Destiny surrounding the Rod will be able to change their directions slightly, while the greater path of history remains intact. Because the intersections of the web that define fate are the product-intersection of differing wills that interact. Choices multiplied by other choices become fate. But to attempt to know it all and aim it a certain way is a mind-of-God scenario that not even Cherinob is allowed to fully know! Therefore, Miguel can't hope to get it all right all the time. He's playing God, and it will backfire on him horribly.
Then again, the reason that Candi / Ciem is able to find such peace in all of this, is because she knows that there is a greater plan, that she can't possibly control everything nor save everyone, and that not every disaster is her fault.
- She didn't know the Pyro Panthers were coming. Because Imaki was out of town, and Miriam got distracted from informing her. So Miriam accepted responsibility for that.
- However, Candi blames herself for the fact that she got arrested by confused police mistaking her for one of the Pyro Panthers, because she was the one who chose to go to Danny's house after school, rather than have Danny go to her house, in spite knowing that she could do all the same activities with her boyfriend at her place without repercussion, and then wouldn't need to flee the Loffin house when the Pyro Panthers bombed it. Meaning, she would never have been seen out-of-costume in the parking lot of Posey's during a riot.
- Given Julie Saffin's chosen activity and associations, Candi is secure in the knowledge that Julie would've probably gotten herself killed one way or another anyway, even if Candi had tried to save her.
- However, Stiggy becoming bulked out and utterly sadistic in prison was in response to Candi mistreating him when he was a skinny little twig petty robber. Her being cruel when apprehending him led to him bulking up in prison to become more of a threat. So she had to, with Stiggy, learn almost the same lesson as Miles regarding Spot.
- While she was horrified by what happened to her friends when Korsicht attacked, she doesn't hold herself responsible. They were completely overwhelmed by Korsicht's army, and by the Anitos. One juvenile prison with no National Guard backup , with a centipede woman and a goat-man as its top defenders, versus an army of demonic female golem monsters that shriek like banshees and crave blood like vampires. And terrorists with uzis and jetpacks! And an ash cloud overhead blocking out the sun, and threatening to descend on everyone and turn their lungs into cedar blocks!
She had no warning that this was coming. None. All the comms were down. The only hint that something like this could happen, was just a short time before it happened, when Korsicht destroyed Louisville with the Heart of Pele necklace. And even then, Anarteq and Kamohoalii were only able to work with the Sodality Church to determine that the Heart of Pele was in Icy Finger possession. They were unable to pinpoint WHEN it would be used, or WHERE, nor entirely to WHAT END! Even then, Candi was in juvie then, for refusing to testify against her godfather regarding Zeran wardrobes. So in theory, she shouldn't have been responsible for anything anyway, because she was supposed to be in prison!
- Halal Affadidah's raid was so well-planned, even the Gray Champion couldn't stop it. So Candi could forgive herself for being unable to stop what happened next.
- She did feel some responsibility for Duzerit detonating Yellowstone; but grateful that Extirpon was able to minimize the damage. That being said, she had no warning that Duzerit would be arriving with the Heart of Pele stolen back from SCALLOP's vault. She'd been led to believe that defeating Quoll was all she had to do, and then Duzerit threw a curveball at everyone's plans.
- She was as in-the-dark about the Denison raid as everyone else. So she couldn't fault herself for not knowing. She was given no possible way to know! Therefore, she doesn't blame herself for the fact that it happened. Though, she did regret that she didn't have a chance to give Remotach to more than just herself and Dolly. So she got to witness hundreds of men being eviscerated upon capture by the Hebbleskins, and hundreds of women getting beheaded at the Denison death camp, right before being rescued by the Navyropes.
- She did feel a little responsible for Arfaas unleashing a plague to wipe out most of Indiana's population, since she refused to surrender to his forces and be beheaded by them. However, she knew Arfaas well enough to know he would've unleashed the plague even if she had complied.
- Pretty much every disaster that happens to her after this, and it's all too easy for the fault to lie with someone else. Her only major regret in Texas, is that her being hasty to get Stephanie Barrin involved in protecting her from Milewing's goons while she was pregnant led to Stephanie having various legal issues. So Candi became responsible for some of Stephanie's future misery.
- She does feel some regret that her half-brother Darius is so willing to persecute her, that he also persecuted her fans, especially anyone that dressed up like her. Tabitha Pang, she believes, suffered needlessly. This guilt was somewhat softened by the realization that Tabitha would've suffered anyway, solely due to being the daughter of Hea Pang, sidekick to the Gray Champion. Tanya Woven nearly got in all sorts of trouble for becoming the Ciem of Seattle, solely due to her resemblance to Candi. And Karla Wimberton getting arrested for visiting a sick child at St. Jude's while in a Ciem suit? Candi thought that was beyond stupid! Though, it made Candi feel better to know that it wasn't her making the decision to do that to Karla, it was her scumbag half-brother Darius abusing his government position that did that.
So in many ways, Candi is the Anti-Miguel. Even though both have lived through a LOT of tragedy! Which is also why I side with Miles in the movie. Sure, Miles' lines could've perhaps been written better, to make him not sound selfish for wanting to save his father. But it's Sony. I don't expect perfect writing from the company that made Venom 2 and Morbius.
My question is how we feel about spot predating a mass homicide of the spiderpeople.
Okay let me ask you a question if you lost someone so precious to you, while you are holding enough power to save many people would you blame yourself for this tragedy
For most of us the anwser is yes, and what if then someone new came from another universe told you that it must happened in order to make your universe continue to exist
Miguel is that kind of person, telling you that it's not your fault, wouldn't you side with him, after all it is easier to throw blame at fatum, than living with it
It offers a quick result, but it is a trap, trap of sufficating your own identity
If death of someone close is a fate thing, then are you defined by the same fate
Most of the spider society are people traumatized by lost of someone special, who sided with Miguel because he told them that must happen
The only fully free spiderman is Miles Morales, he is still scared of loosing his papa
But being free isn't about not being scared, but fighting despite fear
On the other end of spectrum is Miguel who also has huge fear, so much fear that he positioned himself as a leader of spider society, he needs everything to be under his control
The anger he feels, agression he gives, especially to Miles isn't result of strength but weakness, entrapment of guilt, the unability to fight against fate, fear of making changes
After all spiderman is all about leap of faith
A jump that Miguel, the leader of spiderman, fears to do
And Miles, the anomaly, who constantly do it despite everything
So who's the real Spider-Man?
Just because it’s logically correct, that doesn’t make it morally right
Why is miles morally correct?
@@michaelo2642
Because stepping in to help anyway is what needs to be done.
Spiderman is a hero because he always steps against fate and predetermination.
Canon be damned. If rules hurt people, they need to be be addressed and reworked.
If it's logically correct that it saves more lives, then it is morally right.
And the ppl who ignore that are morally wrong and selfish, closing their ears and only looking for what they wanna see.
Damn, I didn't know people were complaining about this. xD
Miguel 😂 is definitely wrong because he went to another universe trying to change the timeline by replacing himself. Miles can't mess up his own universe. Only difference is miles was suppose to become the prowler. The spot/spider42 isn't suppose to be in mile universe. Miguel evidence is thrown out the window. Because the spot messed up big time and this version of miles doesn't belong in the Spiderman family. He was suppose to be prowler not Spiderman. Miles has free will in his timeliness
Miguel is wrong because he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, but he thinks he knows anyway. Miguel tried to love someone else’s life, Mike’s is just trying to be Miles.
He said beeing Spider-Man is a sacrifice that's what they signed up for um, not most spider people signed up to be Spider-Man or woman.
film theory said its incursions and not canon events (from doctor strange multiverse of madness)
Definitely a possibility
Oh perfect! I present the other side of the case! th-cam.com/video/ie93Yn-Wmxs/w-d-xo.html
So many questions.
Just watched that video and he does bring up some good points and some that I feel he’s misinterpreting things slightly. I do agree that a lot of things in the movie defy Miguel’s logic of canon events and that there has to be something else to it. The stuff he brings up about earth 42 is interesting cause that timeline seems to retroactively fix itself to work without the existence of a Spider-man. Maybe it’s due to that spider being needed for the events of 1610? So the multiverse balances things out. Also the India thing also is a good point but that could be another case of the multiverse attempting to course correct due to a distribution but then miles stopped the course correction leading to a break. Now I don’t agree with the Miguel has to be lying theory or idea I just think it’s kinda stupid storytelling wise and in terms of his character doesn’t make sense to me. I think in beyond the spider-verse there will be a grander explanation of how this all works the true way it all works and that Miguel only has half the story and is working with the best of what he’s been given. Could be the potential introduction of Mademe Web to explain all this who knows. I don’t think it’s a plot hole as much as I think it’s a simple we have to wait and see with the next movie and I have faith they’ll handle it well.
@6STONES_ART Thanks for checking it out. Excited to learn more about this character. Hadn't heard of Mademe Web till l saw the comments on your video. Come to think of it, this might be the first video l found from your channel. Thanks again!
Finally, there are holes and missing data in the things he said to Miles.
Do we know for sure what caused the Universe erasal? Are we sure that universe is erased?
(Universes getting rebooted or fused also happen in the Marvel mythos.)
Are we sure this wasn't a domino effect from the local Alchemax plant?
There are too many variables at play. And many Doc Ocks and Jonathan Ohns around.
We're not even sure if the increase of multiverse cracks were anomalies fall are not the doing of Miguel himself by opening the Spider-Society or yet another entity we completely overlooked.
Since when did the entire spiderman multiverse became a hit squad, tasked with eliminating "the right people"?
Miles is not free from the canon, he's still part of it because the pattern of tragedy that happens in every single Spiderman life is happening to him, if Miles saves his dad, not only the universe can collapse, but he can be in an eternal rewind time cycle in that each occasion or circumstance he saves his Dad from dying, other horrible thing happen to Miles or either one other Innocent people he also care about(just like in Life Is Strange)
I love the spiderverse films, both, but l don't play the games. *shrugs* Being Spiderman is tough. Reminds me of being Christian. I've been seeing some Miles theories justifying his side but while watching the movie in theaters, I kept nodding when Miguel stated his case. Just saying. Miles has become Spiderman, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Miguel is both scary and capable of lying so there's that. Can't wait to see part 2!
This deserves a subscription from the Subscription Warrior ⚔
I am truly honoured
My friend mentioned spiderman 2099 turning like evil or being bad, at least that I thought he made it sound like. But Miguel is an antagonist and he is right miles is the cause of the multiversal problem and he isn't really supposed to exist. A whole world was lost
dope art.
Thank you
The way I see it I say probably earth 42 miles might die to help other miles save his dad but I don’t see any ones else dying
Miles didn't choose to be bitten by the 42-spider.
But he did choose to be the next Spiderman, and that the only choice that matters.
If Miles hadn't met and inspired Peter B, Mayday would have never been born.
Heck, if Miles hadn't succeeded to the first Spiderman, the other Spiders would have died trying to stop the Collider.
This would have left 7 orphanated Universes.
Miguel is trying to put order in nature, but destiny/fate did the heavy lifting from the beginning.
I believe Miguel is right but he went about it wrong. Let Miles try and save his dad and let him get the death speech (with great power speech), and become Spider-Man truly.
Absolutely.
The real reason that people side with Miles is arrogance. Because Spiderman is to most people who watch anything related to it, a distraction from how dull and full of disliked limitations their real lives are, and when they see a version of Spiderman that says firmly "No." to the insane childish optimism that normal Spiderman embody, their inner Childs refuse to accept it.
Miguel broke Canon everyone disappeared. Miles broke Canon, a spot appeared, so did Miles break canon?Canon? Also where did all those spots go. Why was Peter with Miguel? Who is Lyla, not a spider-woman.
Miles is in denial of fate/destiny. After all he is just a kid.
So why does Peter Parker from the old animated series get to keep his Uncle Ben? The Uncle Ben that persuaded another Peter Parker to overcome and unbond from the carnage symbiote when he was Spider Carnage.
If Miguel was right, the whole first movie shouldn’t have happened as soon as Miles was bitten by the spider from earth 42. Those 2 universes should’ve collapsed or imploded.
Yeah but peter b parker losing his wife was also a canon event. But he got back with her after his interaction with miles. Miguel tried to interfere with another universe which is why it got destroyed i think. Just like how miles interfered with spiderman india’s universe. I feel like canon events can be changed but only by the spiderman of that universe
Yea but miles isn’t a direct anomaly like Miguel was being in a whole different universe miles was originally from there the spider wasn’t. Just like Miguel except the Spider died
Even though I side with Miles and it's clear the movie wants you too as well. The What If involving Dr. Strange is a perfect example to why Miguel's view may have some legitimacy, as it shows how being too determined to fix things can have drastic consequences.
Miles can defy the cannon because he was never meant to be spiderman. Miguel told him as much but didn't actually think through, that this makes Miles different. Miguel would be right in every other case. Most people who saw the movie didn't even consider this possibility and it's obvious, because their arguments are so emotional. Miguel doesn't want the entire universe erased... must be racist. Miguel warns Miles of the risk... He's just projecting. NO. If this was the correct Miles who was meant to be Spider-Man Miguel would be right.
I think Miguel is just making an excuse for a mistake he made what probably happened in Mubhattan and 2099B was some other force that caused an excursion like in MOM
When he told miles he doesn't belong here for some reason I felt offended by that. To me it felt like the times people didn't like miles cuz he wasn't Peter.
I actually sides with Miles completely Miguel doesn't know much about Canon to think that he is 100 percent right because Miles broke canon and his world is not destabilizing