i'm probably overlooking evidence but i quite like the theory that there was once a finnish filmmaker called thomas seine, who moved to the US some time before 1970 to start a new life for an unknown reason, changed his name to zane, stopped making films and focused on poetry instead, then met barbara. i hope the who-wrote-who-debate never ends, i love it so much
@@moneypits Yup👍 As far as the mythology goes, Sequana is the goddess of the river Seine, and she rides in a duck boat that looks almost identical to Tor and Odin's Viking boat
The Thomas Zane in the Dark Place that Alan meets in AW2, I actually thought was Scratch in disguise. He didn't talk like Zane in the first game, not being voiced by James McCaffrey, didn't act like him, and the montage of him and Alan in Parliament Tower even has Mr. Scratch's theme from American Nightmare playing during the cutscene.
me too. But apparently its not. Hati, tor and odin keep calling wake, tom. I start to think tom and alan is the same person. After the end, alan says that he's now master of dimensions, maybe he can affect de past and/or the future now.
I think Alan is a version of Tom.. You can't create reality from nothing. Tom wrote Alan into reality with the help of Dr Darling. Literally using Dr Darlings voice for Alan Wake. (Inspiration) The tom we meet in the dark place has been there for who knows how long. Of course he'd be acting different. Just like how Alan acts different to before he enters. The link to Dr Darling is a video you get in the final draft version. A must watch!!!!! Getting very speculative here but I also think that Dr Darling helped write the FBC into existence.. Creating a boot strap paradox.
Alan Wake, Thomas Zane and Mr Scratch are just different versions of the same character in the never-ending story rewriting spiral. They all have the power to rewrite each other's story.
@@silenthill4That leads even more creddance to OP's theory. Alan would've had to be an extension of Zane since Zane was alive before Alan. This would be why Ahti and the Old Gods always refer to Alan as Tom.
You see this in Bob Ross paintings, where he'll paint an island, then partially if not fully obscure the island with another part of the painting. The island is still there, but only the painter is really aware that it's there. However, due to the reality altering effects of The Dark Place, the story taking on a life of its own, even Alan isn't aware of some of the facets and forces he put into motion. Of course, in 'Alan Wake II', he's completely unaware of 'Departure' because it was written by the irrational portion of his psyche - the vain, narcissistic control freak: Scratch. I think you can see the unintended consequences in the 'AWE DLC', where Alan needed a threat to propel the heroine into action, so he gave the Hiss a voice, making it stronger, but also making the threat obvious. The Hiss was already present, was already infiltrating The Oldest House, Jesse was already on her way there, guided by Polaris, who was responding to Hedron's call for aid prior to the Hiss becoming louder. What would have happened if Alan hadn't done that? Jesse would have likely been hired by Ahti, gotten access to various parts of The Oldest House, and gotten to Hedron, probably wresting The Service Weapon from Zachariah Trench in the process once The Board became aware of the Hiss invasion and ordered Trench to vacate the position of Janitor's Assistant.
And I seriously do think there is a possibility of Alan and Tom being the same character in the real world but in parallel realities (overlapping eachothers real timelines). And the Dark Place could be an overlap that connects them with time being nonexistent or different there. There is so much evidence that could support this!
Curiously in the Alan Wake Remaster, Thomas Zane's books also appear in a shoebox in Alan's and Alice's apartment in the dresser in their bedroom. This isn't in the original though, so maybe that was Remedy incorporating another way on how Alan and Tom were already connected
Yeah i think the remaster is supposed to be the "definitive" lore accurate version. Revised to work with the themes in its sequal. Kinda meta its self lol
I do like the idea of there being after-effects of old versions of the story. In regular writing, when you change a detail, it can be very easy to see the echoes of the old version if you know what you're looking for. Might be worth noting Odin and Tor might be immune to reality revisions. American Nightmare has that line that those touched by powers that can alter reality can remember how things were before the revision. Unless we suppose Alan also created the 1976 AWE with Departure, that could mean they weren't really 'bound' to the script the way other characters were, and that might be why they kept calling Alan Tom, remembering the intermediate reality.
No joke the reason this thought struck me about old versions of the story having an effect on things is because I'm rereading 'The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag'. That's all I'm saying in case you've never read it.
Well, AW2 appears to strongly confirm that they're immune to a degree (though perhaps only in terms of their memory, given one key plot point) - even though they have the confusing tendency along with another friend of theirs of calling him Tom.
i like your theory a lot actually. the whole time i was playing i kept thinking "whose story are we living out?" because of all the intervention between Tor and Odin, Alan, Zane, Scratch, and ultimately Alice herself with her photography. Everyone had a hand in the creation and edits of the story as it unfurled, so you never knew who was responsible for what. But the more likely answer is that they ALL were responsible, each having their own draft so to speak that echoed throughout the story as it came to life.
It's the whole idea of dropping a pebble into a pond. It ripples its influence. But when we drop 8 billion into a pond those ripples all smack into each other, repel, and end up forming the story of the world as we know it. Not just one artist but all of them.
Thomas Zane is truly one of the biggest mysteries in Alan Wake. One thing that is interesting to note is that the Tom in the AWE DLC cutscene is voiced by Ilkka Villi, which is a rather curious detail. Wonder if this has any relevance ... and I still feel like there are multiple incarnations of Zane around.
I'm eventually going to work on a video that dives into my Multiple Alan Wake theory as well. There are 100% multiple Zane's running around too. But that will wait until after AW2 since I can almost guarantee that it will provide confirmation on at least multiple Alans. We see one in the DLC chapters. One Alan is in the Cabin going insane. Another is a projection of his rational mind. The part that doesn't want to give in to the lure of oblivion in the Dark Place. Two alans at once stemming from the same person.
I was wondering why the new voice actor for Zane sounded Scandinavian - also kind of a trip that Alex Casey is also voiced by Zane's voice actor from the first game, who was also the voice actor for Max Payne 😆
@@BARDI77Or maybe Mr Scratch and Fictional Zane have always been the same person from the beginning. I can't be the only one who found it odd to say the least when Zane told Alan to not worry about Mr Scratch, even telling him he'll replace him in the real world, then gaslighting Alan into believing it wasn't as much of a big deal as Scratch turned out to be in American Nightmare and the files of Control.
I always saw Tom the poet as the original while Thomas Zane the cineast being Tom's Mr. Scratch. Him being the tale of what would happen to Wake should he fail in his task, replaced by the dark fake that everyone will remember then as. Only people with paranormal attributes (The old gods, Alan, Jesse) being able to remember the original. Also I think a lot about the connection with one of our real world phenomenon, the Mandela effect.
Thomas the full name, which I find odd hasn't been mentioned a lot, has a different definition than Tom. Thomas tends to be shrugged off as twin. But I imagine a lot of names might hint at twin. Thomas SPECIFICALLY is slag for second come twin. It originates from being the second of something.
@@willisrose9756 i think if he isn't in the base game he may end up being in the dlc we have a base game made of 2 campaign's and 2 dlc's meaning if there self contained instead of being in the style of control's dlc, we have the perfect candidate's for both the dark place and bright falls (well at least america in general) sides of the campaign those being zane (dark place) and Samantha wells (america), tho getting a dlc based of going through dylan fadens nightmares as (while it wouldn't fit with the name of ether of the dlcs promised) it would fit the nightmare like dark place without being in the dark place, would be intresting.
I feel like Hartman's role in all this is being overlooked. He remembers Thomas Zane and is mentioned in one of the poems that was found in Ordinary. Also maybe Ordinary is way more important as a point of interest as well considering Jesse remembers reading a poem by Zane. This is more going into the whole "did Alan write Control" argument that people don't like. I've always assumed that the Zane we interact with is a bright presence, a yin to the dark presence yang. Though that doesn't mean that the bright presence is good, I think the bright presence is manipulating Alan in a more subtle way than the dark presence did.
Taking into account how many different planes of reality were all visited in Ordinary, it could be assumed that a "nexus point" taking place in Ordinary and Jesse and Dylan becoming linked to a resonance as a result could be the reason they are aware of a reality that was altered. They were already in a sense touched by forces beyond conceptual reality
this doesnt explain why barbara existed before alan was in the lake though, why she was the one that gave them the keys to the divers isle cabin as the avatar of the dark presence.
Yeah, I think the actual Zane is long gone, or is residing in his own universe away from all this, and the light presence is using his form and adapting to Alan's story much like the dark presence is doing. have you seen the movie In the Mouth of Madness? I feel like that was a huge inspiration for Alan Wake and could shed some light on which characters are real or fake
Your theory makes Tom the Driver feel like a parallel to Mr. Scratch. They both feel like creations that gained a different purpose to what was intended. I'm curious if we would get to see the real Tom in AW2.
One theme Sam Lake clearly likes to play with is iteration of the same story when writing, but also in the way video games work where the same story is being played out all over the place by different people playing the same game and these things being tied together by the hero's journey (which Ahti mentions in his tango). Zane/Wake are in a way iterations or drafts of the same story. I think that meta level thinking about video games as a medium was also part of the inspiration to immediately make Jesse the 'director' in Control - because in a video game, especially an open world game, the player is both the main character and the director.
Could it just be that Tom and Alan are the same person living in parallel realities (universes) and the Dark Place is a overlap that connects them? There was the book about Darling’s Many Worlds theory in AW2
That's an interesting theory of Thomas Zane being a residual creation of Alan's from a previous draft, I've also read the inverse of that theory: that Alan is in fact a creation of Thomas Zane's come to life. As Zane had written himself out of reality, he made Alan to continue the fight against the Dark Presence, which might explain why Alan looks like Zane, but this theory of Alan being the maker of Zane also explains why they look the same.
@@banmancan1894 I forgot about Dr. Darling. Now, I'm thinking there are too many Alan doppelgangers running around the Remedy Universe. That's four of them unless Scratch is truly dead this time.
You got it! Remedy has said that they knew Zane's backstory the entire time when writing the first game. So there is something to him. No clue if this theory comes close. Can't wait to be proved right or wrong. I don't care which lol.
Unrelated to this video. In Contol's AWE dlc I just noticed Darling's face flashes on the in game tv when Tom and Wake are talking. I'm wondering what implications this might have for Darling. I just thought it was interesting.
A minor conflict becomes with the fact that in one of Jesse's psych eval audio logs, she discusses Thomas Zane the filmmaker or the poet with the evaluator. Yes, we know from the AWE DLC that Alan rewrote at least part of Jesse's life to accommodate his escape attempt, facilitating some of what the Hiss did, but does that mean she was or wasn't impacted by his rewriting Thomas the Real Guy into Tom the Poet? Regarding Mr Door -> Imdb lists Shawn Ashmore as also appearing in Alan Wake 2. If Mr Hatch is not the only Quantum Break character moving into the Remedyverse, your theory has more merit immediately. But how does American Nightmare and Mr Scratch factor into all of this? AW2 trailers feature SCRATCH as recurring graffiti, but Mr Scratch exists almost entirely inside AWAN, doesn't he?
I still dont see that as a conflict. Either A he was always a poet and Alan repurposed his character to be a filmmaker. Or B he was always a filmmaker l. But as an Auteur he was a polyglot. Meaning he could have written poetry on the side as part of the project he was working on. All Alan found in the cabin was books of poetry left behind. With no further information Alan would think Tom Zane is a poet and wrote him as such.
Good point. This is like the theory of the child of Thomas Zane. This theory posits that there is a descendant of Tom and Barbara’s out there and that child is possibly Alan. But as far as we know, and I’m basing this on assumptions, Alan was born sometime after the disappearance of Tom and Barbara which would contradict that theory. I mean it would give a reason as to why there’s a rocking horse in the cabin Tom and Barbara lived in but still jumping to the conclusion that child is Alan is stretching it a bit. If this theory is true then could it possible that child is actually Alice? Do we know how old Alice is in the first Alan Wake game? Ugh…now my head’s hurting from trying to figure out why there’s a rocking horse. I mean Occam’s razor says that there had to be a child but when that child was born, if before or after Barbara drowned in the lake, could make or break it. Does anyone have any theories as why there’s a rocking horse? Could it be a childhood toy that Barbara had with her? I feel like your point about reality manipulation and the question of the rocking horse will be expanded upon more in Alan Wake 2. At least I hope so. There are just a ton of mysteries in the Remedy verse that need answers.
There's an interesting parallel (which is fitting) with the concept of 'circumstantial simultaneity', where two things are not happening at the same chronological TIME but happen on the same conceptual wavelength like echoing ripples in a narrative: Things like callbacks and references but also motifs that recur, battles or encounters between characters that follow matching or mirrored beats, etc. It feels like on a lot of levels Alan's story and Thomas' story have this kind of "echo of each other going both forwards and backwards" vibe.
Right on! There are things that I question but I really like this theory overall. Real quick, about the manuscript pages that weren't used. According to Langston, those that were supposedly found in the real world were posted on forums and called "Departure", because Alan had once said that his new work would be a departure from his old stuff. We stopped watching previews and peeks of AW2, so some of what you showed we hadn't seen (not a huge deal) I'm really glad you mentioned about the voices. There are multiple times during the game that a version of Alan (writer in the cabin, Alan dreaming, the last line in the game) where it sounds like two voices blended together. In the dream he had at Rose's, he has to wake himself up, and tells himself to turn the light on- if you play it in reverse he says "my helmet", we show it in one of our post gameplay videos. In the end when the voices change in the "Tom and Barbara" argument, it also raised our suspicions. Then Control came along and lists a Thomas Zane as being involved in the 1970 Bright Falls AWE, they also consider Tor and Odin "persons of interest" and not suspected parautilitarians or altered individuals, diminishing their significance in a way. Alan is considered both. We can't forget to add Hartman in there too, Zane's "assistant" (whole other thing, lol) Anyway, tons more to say but I'm glad I watched this, we've been trying to avoid everything about AW2, but figured this would be safe. Great job!
8:55 OK I just had a brain blast moment. I'd never really considered that what appears in Alan's opening dream might not even be wearing the "skin" of Thomas Zane yet... and if that's true, it's recital of Tom's poem in the dream makes a lot more sense. The Bright Presence is seeing someone who, in it's eyes, looks exactly like Tom, whether in appearance or just in archetype / fate. Reciting that poem might have been the Bright Presence trying to figure out if you're Tom or not. Hell, with the slightly permeable nature of time when stuff like this is happening, it might be getting tripped up _because_ of Alan's "protagonist Zane". It's also all very appropriate, considering how Alan Wake 2 is diving into how the Dark Place is screwing with Alan's memory and grip on what's "his work" and what isn't, that even in the first game he was starting to forget what he'd written vs. what was already true beforehand. In this framework Thomas Saine the filmmaker would have been another version of the character Alan wrote for a new story, he's just forgetting that he wrote it up now that he's diving into the story himself. _And_ it lines up with the possibility that Alex Casey is a real FBI agent who Alan previously turned into Alex Casey the private detective. I kind of hope that your theory ends up being true on some level. It ties into the nature of the creative process _very_ well which is what Alan Wake is all about.
I'm so glad this channel exists. You bring up so many great points about Wake's character and the story he's writing that I never would have questioned. Great video as usual!
So bare with me. So if the story isn't a loop of Thomas and Alan manipulating each other's lives, and Alan has created a fictional version of Thomas as Tom the Diver, is Tom the Diver not real enough to use the lake's power? If fragments of Alan are enough to manipulate the reality around him, as a former piece of Alan wouldn't Tom the Diver have that same power? Are we really following the same Alan within the story of the game or is that Alan the Hero a separate being, saving Alice and defeating the darkness while the real Alan is still trapped in a small haven of the lake just like the real Thomas? I don't think Alan the Hero we play as would write his wife into any more possible danger of his own will, but we know the true Alan in the cabin in the lake would, he had done just that before making a self insert to save her from it. Thomas the Filmmaker claimed he found a way out of the Dark Place, but if the original Thomas and Alan are truly still trapped, that means that Thomas the Filmmaker is a twisted version of Alan, an evolved form of Mr. Scratch taking on the guise of Thomas. I think Thomas the Filmmaker is making the horror movie that Alan tried to abort and that will be Alan Wake 2.
From my calculations you all have 5 more videos to be released before Alan Wake 2 drops. 3 of them are related to AW. 4/5 are already made and waiting to drop.
These are a little difficult to watch, not because they are bad in any way whatsoever but because my eagerness for AW2 is almost unbearable, I even forbade my friends from even mentioning the game until the weekend after the release when we can play it together. With that said, I have never been unhappy to to see one of your videos, it is quite the pickle you have put me in. :)
I was in a pickle to even touch this topic as well. Since we are so close to getting new information. I just really wanted to mention this thought. I'm the same thought. I have been avoiding all content related to the sequel. No joke, some of the video assets used in this one I covered my eyes when reviewing it lol. The editor has been keeping up with it all and included AW2 promo stuff.
If Alan made characters, who were forced to live in the Dark Place for 40 years... suffered like real people... then, is Alan still a protagonist? Also, "there have to be victims along the way..." - did not seem to bother him, as long as he saves Alice. There are so many things that can easily turn him into an antagonist of the story, without him even realizing that.
Yeah Protagonist just means he is our main character. I somewhat touch upon this Dilemma in 'Morality of Creation'. Part of the Alan Wake files playlist. It comes down to the age old debate of why God allowed Strife to exist within his creation in the first place. Kind of the same conversation as this.
@@GamingUniversityUoG This seemed to be more of a reference to good versus evil. A protagonist can also be an antagonist. but my takeaway from the comment was what his actions more closely resembled in a traditional good guy bad guy scenario.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: what if Alan didn't fight back by inserting himself in the story, but instead wrote it the way the Darkness wanted, and then EVERYONE dies. If we take the power of 'creation' as described by Wake at face value, then there had to be 'stakes'. He couldn't just write it as everyone lived happily ever after and there were endless rainbows and puppies. The story would self destruct. It had to be 'believable'. Now to me this always raised the question: what if Alan just refused to write anything? Did he even have the power to say 'no'? It seems, at least at first, that he was under some kind of enchantment, so maybe once the story was started it had to be completed. But what if he never wrote a single page and told Barbs to f off?
I think this is the best theory so far. If the original Zane's powers worked like Alan's, he can't MAKE things that don't exist. Alan would have had to existed, and Zane inserted the Clicker for Alan to finish the job. Alan altering reality for a version of Zane makes more sense than that. Especially with how Sam Lake has defined Alan's powers numerous times, even in American Nightmare. What would be curious is this: If Zane the Filmmaker is a repurposed Zane from the first draft of Departure, is Alan using that changing reality entirely? Jesse Faden is shown to remember the original poet and quoting his poems--the same one that Wells had in her shoebox. But, in the AWE DLC, she comments that now Zane is a filmmaker and that she always gets those mixed up. But, it's shown Jesse can remember the previous way reality was. So... does her memory change because Alan used her in the story for AWE? I have QUESTIONS, Mr. Dean of Uni and Sam Lake!!
Personally, having Jesse suddenly remember that Zane is a 'Filmmaker' only after she peaks into the Spiral Door is what I point to to support that Alan has changed things. The entire game she is insistent that he is a poet. Not once does she ever question this. Then out of nowhere she 'remembers differently'. I honestly question if she is immune to the reality altering effects. It is said anyone who has direct content with these powers is immune to the changes. We all presumed she had since she has access to Zane's work as a kid. However, Samantha Wells finds copies of them in a shoebox in the town of Ordinary. It's possible Jesse simply found some that survived in a shoebox too. Which would get around this loophole in her memory.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Jesse's comment about always getting them mixed up suggests that her memory of Zane being a poet is not completely overwritten so she seems to be at least somewhat resistant to the changes
@@coolsenjoyer Likely due to feedback of her being a character in-part written by Alan, but also having The Board and Polaris in her head making her far harder to completely overwrite. Honestly thinking the nature of The Board and Polaris likely makes Jessie unique in her being probably immune to a Mr.Scratch/Tom the Poet/Diver/Filmaker situation. As for it to truly be a version of Jessie, she'd need to have at least Polaris, if not The Service Weapon. Which at this point, both are singular entities/groups. So to make a Mr.Scratch or Tom, Alan would need to somehow duplicate them without tearing reality apart.
@@coolsenjoyer also it came to my mind that young Jesse's interview with the psychiatrist and I think it adds to this: They were discussing a poem that Jesse says was written by Thomas Zane, but then the psychiatrist says that it's weird because they only find a filmmaker with that name. Then Jesse is like what? no, I'm pretty sure he is a poet, he wrote this poem, and the psychiatrist then diverts saying that maybe it was Jesse who wrote it, trying to make a sense from "Jesse's contradiction" or to "prove" she was kinda making it up. But Jesse insist that she didn't write it and it was Zane the poet. But yeah, the way Jesse says she keeps mixing them up may indicate that there is resistance in her mind to the power of reality rewriting so she doesn't get completely affected, as if the change in reality is trying to get in her head but maybe polaris fights it back in a way, so it doesn't get deep completely. Very interesting.
The sequel really doubles down on the "was he actually a filmmaker?" angle. Though it never specifically commits to it, I think "Are we seeing Zane or Scratch in disguise or Zane but possessed by the dark presence in general?" is always a lingering factor. I don't necessarily need to the answer, but as with any mystery box story I always hope for a sense that the writers themselves know a concrete answer (because stories where you can tell there's no explaination, just a series of things the writer thought would be cool just aren't as satisfying).
Greatly put together and beautifully written & narrated. I am so glad I found your channel after Control and have a place of shared passion for Alan Wake and Remedy! You rock ❤
I love how open to interpretation this is, though I hope Remedy does give us some definite answers in AW2. I don't think there's any knockout arguments for any of the theories. You could argue that Zane deliberately imitated Alan's style so the page fit into Departure, for example. My current pet theory is that Tom the Filmmaker wrote the script of Tom the Poet (the 1970 AWE), which would suggest that all of that was premeditated. That would explain things like the Tom the Poet posters we see at the start of AW, and why he is still somewhat remembered, though not as a poet.
Random thought, I apologize if someone already brought it up There is a point where Alan is saying how Barbara was now editing the manuscript, and even though Alan was writing faster, Barbara was turning it more into a horror story. What if Barbara was slowly adding Thomas Zane into the story from the beginning?
I love this theory and I think it could definitely be true. I especially think that the effects of “editing” and previous versions affecting the “final” draft will play a role in AW2. We can see this in the jumbled way some of the interactions happen in both AW and Control/AWE
I was reading a book recently where this idea was a main plot point. First attempts at creating a universe didn't work so the 'Artist' painted over it. But certain entities from the original work remained in the mirror reality. Wonder why it made me think about Alan Wake lol
What if somehow they both wrote each other into existence? Tom wrote that a thriller novelist would write about a poet called Thomas Zane who wrote about a thriller novelist etc etc. I don't see how there can be a separate fictional Thomas Zane and a real Thomas Zane when the dark presence makes fiction and reality one in the same.
I liked that you haven’t been talking about Alan Wake 2 as much lately now that we’ve gotten so much gameplay and trailers (even though I know you want to lol).
So the bright prescense is Allan wakes work?... Tom the poet? .. not what replaced Thomas Zane the real person? Or did the real Thomas Zane leave behind the bright prescense in ordr to help someone and Allan used it as Tom the Poet ?
fun. I think the hitchhiker at the start of the game is likely a remnant of Jake Fischer. and Jake's whole Bright Falls prequel story is likely a first rough draft for the game (with the wife disappearing from the car much like alice disappearing form the cabin). That video series ends with alan wake driving up to hear from a cop that someone lost control of their car, probably due to a deer (i think this is how the real alan actually entered brightfalls, and was the first seed planted in the story he was about to write). The whole video series started with a diver dragging jake's body bag from the lake, which could represent the light/dark presences in the lake starting to put things in alan's head for inspiriation. So the hitchhiker is pissed at alan for being discarded - in that jake's wild story was an earlier idea that was ultimately discarded. ... but i also think the whole game of Alan Wake represents the act of you, the player, rewriting a story. Which is why you hear typing and find pages along the way like little bursts of creativity. there are a lot of clues that suggest each scene has been revisited multiple times (like the bridge train crossing one way, full, in the opening cinematic. then crossing the opposite way, empty, in the opening ferry scene). I think this echoes the whole idea of a video game, where you can die and restart a level over and over until you get it right.
I’m just saying, the whole ‘who created who’ is basically ‘which came first, the chicken or the egg’ well, to me at least. Thomas Zane is such a mysterious character, especially since Zane looks EXACTLY like Alan in the AWE DLC, and even in the (I believe to be non canon) Alan Wake novelization, Cynthia Weaver mentions that Alan looks similar to Zane and I believe she mentions that he also has that same stubbornness that Zane has. Zane and Alan are so similar to each other, like, to the point that I can’t discern who wrote who. I also am curious if that, since they are so similar, If say, Zane wrote Alan, if Zane based some aspects of himself into Alan, or vice versa. Idk I’m just heavy into theorizing Alan Wake, and with the sequel so close by, I plan to go through all the games and make my own theories and predictions on what I believe will happen in Alan Wake 2. Great video!
I really love your channel and videos! Probably the only issue with this particular theory, in my opinion, is that Alan actually remembered everything long before he opened Zane's shoebox. He remembered how the Dark Presence trapped Alice, and also remembered how he worked on the Departure manuscript and wrote himself as the protagonist. If it was Alan who made Tom the Diver write that page about Wake's childhood, he would definitely remember it. Moreover, there is not a single page of Alan's manuscript that would indicate the contents of the box. Wake just wrote about Zane's "secret weapon", leaving Tom the Diver a part to fill in.
I mean Alan saw the stuff about Tom the moment he arrived in the cabin. Really I wanted to get the community speculating again as we count down the days to the sequel lol
@@GamingUniversityUoG, hi! You know, after some research, I actually want to take my words back. When Alan got to Cynthia, he didn't remember anything about a well-lit room and a shoe box, although they are mentioned in Departure. This may seem like a contradiction, because Alan remembered working on the manuscript at the end of episode 4, but for some reason he still does not remember its plot in episode 5. Apparently, his memory was only partially restored, because while working on Departure, Alan was under the influence of a dark presence and did not think soberly, which, by the way, he even mentions. Therefore, it is quite possible that the shoe box and Zane's page about Alan's childhood in it is really Wake's idea. I think you have made very firm and convincing arguments in this regard. As always.
*_(Time to do some fun speculating/mindless ranting!)_* Maybe Tom wrote himself & Barbara back into existence from the Dark Place or that pocket dimension he created for himself and his paramour, not as themselves but reincarnated as Alan & Alice but it was a flawed process just like the process of removing Tom & Barbara from history was incomplete, likely thanks to the Dark Presence. This could be another explanation as to why Tor & Odin see Alan as Tom & why Alan made many of the mistakes Tom did; the Anderson brothers _(weird that they took a father and son name set when Odin had two brothers called Vili and Vé)_ are touched by the Dark Presence so may be able to see things others can not and people develop patterns and habits, especially when they are rooted in trauma, and breaking those patterns requires a shatter point where the person is forced to deal with them and that is precisely what Alan endured during his time in the purgatory of Bright Falls. _Edited to force in additional gibbering._
Just think how many new wild Remedy-verse theories we're all going to have in a few weeks time. It's about to get even weirder around these here parts.
I dont think we will stop making new videos for like a year lol. I mean I've gone nearly 4 years on Alan Wake and Control and barely scratched the surface
What if "Scratch" is actually means scratched version of a character from 1st version of the story, Zane - protagonist was scratched from the story as protagonist and become Mister "Scratch"- Mister "Noone", forgotten character that now angry and want to become main character again...
That's why I was hesitant to write this one. We have new info coming at the end of the month. I can almost guarantee there will be new wrinkles that will require a new theory. Either way it is fun to spark the Zane speculation again before the game's release.
@@GamingUniversityUoG absolutely, more theories for the god of theories, lore of Remedy-verse exist to spawn them 😁 Speaking of which, if we looking at relationship between Zane and Wake through prism of question of "who is the real author", we should consider that none of them are. Devs already played cheek and tongue with idea of character self awareness and breaking forth wall with Dylan and Max Payne watching player watching them. Remedy also rarely give definitive answers, and since main theme of AW is creative process, I won't be surprised if we find out that both of them simultaneously author and creation infinitely effecting each other and whomever writing them, because how can you be sure who is in charge of creative process? How story comes to mind of an author? Did he or she have any control over it really? Or, as Alan said himself, story is a beast of its own, and it wants stuff from the writer, or it will fall apart. Which means it exist somewhere in complete state and wants to be expressed in certain way.
Heavy spoiler for this comment: A journalist from GamesRadar visited AW2’s live action set and wrote an article about it. He mentioned that Thomas Zane the actor is in the game, played by Ilkka Villi, just like Control AWE. Also, this time TZ plays a more antagonistic character since he’s been kept in the dark place for a very long time. This speaks to your theory of the Drafts. TZ the actor/character still exists after he was written to a different direction from the draft, and is set to have been trapped in the dark place longer than Alan is because of the story Alan wrote for him. He has the appearance of Alan but not his voice because he was supposed to be a mirror to Alan, but speaks differently(has a different tones in writing). But then here’s the question: why is he back? Because Alan needs him as a character to help him in the story again? Or is he called back by the Dark Place? Also, would we ever get to find out what happened with the real Thomas Zane, or did he simply die in the Dark Place?
I have another hypothesis: Sam Lake is (fictionally) involved in the story, a la Grant Morrison. Grant regularly makes themselves a character and interacts with the story's characters, but still maintains control, because they are the creator. You also mentioned Stephen King, and he does this, too. I propose a fictional Sam Lake is the tie to all of these characters. He controls them all and recycles them. The universes overlap because it's all Sam Lake. Sam using characters he needs Alex Casey gets reused; Tom gets repurposed; there are multiple "drafts" of Alan Wake; Jesse is retooled Beth Wilder.
Forgive me, I'm not very well versed in Wake lore because that game felt pretty much like a fetch quest, especially that one part where you're at gates or something and his Agent is just outside I REALLY HATED ALAN WAKE so my one question is Can you make a video that simply exposes the Oceanview Motel and the universes behind the doors and what the door symbols identify? Or have you already done this and I missed it? FYI I still haven't played Quantum Break because I'm still very upset that I bought Alan Wake on Steam and that was almost immediately before it finally landed on PS which is where I actually played in in a couple of days. I also saw Primer, which was pretty good.
I'll go even further. My theory is that the Thomas Zane we see in Alan Wake 1 and Mr Scratch are one and the same entity, The Dark Place itself, and "Helped" Alan save Alice, to Trap him and take his place in the real world. After all, Zane told Alan in Alan Wake 1 that he shouldn't worry about Mr Scratch, which has been proven by American Nightmare and Control that he absolutely was something to be worried about, which means that the so called Thomas lied, leading me to believe both are Avatars for The Dark Place.
Reminds me a little bit of Alessas story from SH1. A character that has been split in two. Or splitting a number in order to solve a problem. Either way - really exited for AW2. Hope its good.
Cool theory, but leaves me with a couple of questions. How come there was an island (which wasn't supposed to exist) on the lake when Alan & Alice arrived initially? While the dark presence could've been messing about our reality, it seems wayy too powerful to: 1. Plot an argument between Alan and Alice so that he leaves here 2. Make a whole island with house and everything as close to reality as possible as to not trip up the former couple 3. Be able to capture alice and take her to the dark depths This reeks of someone else having written the events before. I highly doubt the dark presence was so powerful to manifest such strong changes in reality - otherwise it probably didn't even need Alan in the first place. (it's also a bit weird how the story starts out perfectly - Alan and Alice on a boat, with mott the kidnapper, and also Pat Maine who plays an important role in Alan's escape later. Like actors, like pawns in a play who've just been woken up as they're pushed by a puppetmaster to do their bidding.... It all seems very deliberate IMO)
I believe Alan Wake is the "real" version, and Tom Zane is a time-warped, re-written version of Alan Wake written into existence during the events of "Departure".
It's the effects of the spiral, new versions of the story layering onto of the old, the same but different. Each rung of the ladder more rounded and real then the last, until eventually they write each other into existence. Alan created Tom as a guide in his story, Tom wrote of Alan to justifie the clickers escape route, and Alan wrote Tom writing about Alan.. Spirals upon spirals..
Btw - one meta thing with AW1 - Zane is voiced by James McCaffrey, just like Casey is voiced by him in AW2. So this voice for Alan is a protagonist voice in his writing. 😂
Relating to what Alice says in the post-credits scene of AW2, the real Thomas Zane (a.k.a. Thomas Seine) chose "destruction". He created a pocket Universe within the Dark Place (the Shadow's dimension) and effectively wrote himself out of this Universe. All that's left is his residual image within the Dark Place, the idea of him, being used and reshaped like clay putty. Alan literally says, during the first game, that Zane would help him. "I will make him." That's the smoking gun about who really wrote the page about young Alan: not the real Zane, but Alan's Zane.
I can almost guarantee a few tears will be shed once I finally boot up AW2 for the first time on stream. 13 years has been such a wait to check up on our boy
With the clues and more mysteries revealed in AW2, I think you have to revisit your idea why Anderson brothers refer to Alan as Tom. Thank you for doing all the detective work. You are like the VaatiVidya of Remedy.
I fully expected to. I'm still on board for multiple versions of same but there is definitely another reason for the old Gods. Considering Ahti does it too.
Tor and Odin are not mistaken by their dementia(?) when they call Alan by Tom. They are the only characters who are aware of how Alan's writing affects reality, and they know what is fact and what is fiction from Alan's story. Alan is Tom and Tom is Alan; they are one and the same person. Think of that "baby" universe... could Alan's reality be that universe/dream conjured by Thomas Zane which was now falling apart? Had Paradise now turned into a nightmare?
I'm glad you mentioned that scene at the end. I think most people never even paid attention to it. I always wondered why Alan's voice was calling out at the end. By the way, did you notice that the fortnite Alan seems to have a band that says, "find alice?" So that must be to guide him, or maybe she's been taken by Scratch.
What I'm still unsure of in your thesis is this: Did the events of Tom Zane/Barbara Jaeger/The Darkness actually happen? If not, what DID happen to the 'real' Tom Zane? At one point you present evidence of the real Zane versus Tom the Poet(Alan's) writing. If the real Zane wasn't 'special', why is he effectively written out of history? Why are his writings (the real ones I presume) still found only in shoeboxes? Why do only paracausal abled people seem to remember him at all? A larger question I have, going back to your video about the Morality of Creation: Do any of these people even exist if Wake didn't write them? Did the FBC/Jessie Faden already exist and were on the course show in the main game of Control, only to be 'contacted' by Wake in AWE? Or were they a creation of Wake from the start? Wake is referenced in Quantum Break, but none of the events or characters (with possible exception of Hatch/Door) seem to actually relate to him in any way. Did he create Monarch/the End of Time, or are these events 'real'?
Thomas Zane went from originally being a famous poet and ended up writing himself "out of existence", with only a few of his essential writings to apparently support anyone fighting against the Dark Presence. But later, we start seeing that Thomas "Tom" Zane the poet is now being referred to as Tom Zane, the famous European filmmaker... This is definitely not an oversight. Even in Control, Jesse Faden remembers poems by Thomas Zane, but she is repeatedly told that such a person is unheard of. And then in the AWE dlc is when we see Alan's doppelganger refer to himself as "Tom Zane". I get the feeling the idea of Thomas Zane has been twisted by the Darkness or Mr. Scratch, to abuse the trust that Alan developed with the true Thomas Zane.
The way that Alan talks about writing--the way writing and the creative process is so ingrained in the lore--always hits me just as hard as the first time I played. I love this game so much, and I'm always so happy when you post something new about the Remedy universe. I practically drop everything to watch it ASAP. I think you're correct about the difference in writing--Zane's flows so very different than Alan's, who was more...concise? in his sentence structure. I also agree with your conclusion that Alan wrote the Clicker page. However as a thought, I will say that sometimes a writer's style changes based on the medium. It's possible that when writing stories without a poetic format, Zane's style condenses and is similar to Alan's. (Mine used to do this as I moved between poetry and storycraft, both during and after I'd mostly solidified my own style.) Also If they're 'rhyming' because of Alan's plot interference, could there be enough of a (passive) familiarity on Zane's end to mimic Alan's style by mistake? My friends and I who used to work together when writing stories waaay back in HS would sometimes have that happen, where we'd mimic each other and only realize it after due to handwriting and color of pen. Again, I agree with you, but these just popped into my head as I watched. I can't wait for AW2!!
Ok but what about part in Control when Zane said that they are both co-authors of the story? It wouldn't exactly fit in this whole Alan is creator of everything narration doesn't it? My theory would be that Thomas Zane created Alan Wake so Alan could create Thomas Zane. The Zane-Truck in AW dlc says that his not an author of Alan's story simply because it's not Zane - it is Bright Presence (in a form of truck lights). I think such recursive-paradox theory would rhyme quite well with one of the Night Springs episodes. I don't know.. everything in this universe is super-weird :D
I wish Sam Lake would just told how things are xD It would be very interesting to hear if this is really this intricate OR maybe all it takes is a smart story like this, so it can go in maaaany directions like here in this video. People can come up with different scenarios and they sound good.
I have a stupid theory but, what if Tom Zane is Alan’s father. Alan’s mother gave him the clicker which is said to be from his father. The clicker is the switch that was connected to the lamp Alan uses in AW2. And I’m pretty sure the lamp belonged to Zane.
Potential alternative version of this theory which depends heavily on the trustworthiness of Cynthia Weaver (or potential lack of) given the NG+ intro's strangest inclusion (only just started): Thomas Seine really was a Finnish filmmaker and he really did start an artist's commune in Bright Falls, and he really did make a movie called Tom the Poet. This film is what _initially_ inspired Alan's Departure narriative and started the Diver's Isle loop. In fact, maybe the reason Departure v1 didn't work is because it was plagiarism until he made the story a sequel. Since the horror story started to become true, people's memories were altered. Thomas Zane was still seen as a ghost story, so it was an easy enough change to make. Maybe changes like that don't last forever, and eventually people started to remember... Biggest stumbling block to this version of events is the Tom the Poet film's supposed cast which implies it's really about Alan's story. (...Maybe Alan's just falling prey to his own edits again.)
@@GamingUniversityUoG Yea, the mannerisms of Zane in the AWE cutscene are all wrong. Gave me Scratch vibes hard when watching it. But then isn't Scatch dead? Did Wake not kill him off in American Nightmare? Did those events even happen?
I think an important aspect is Alan never knew his father. Even if Alan was happy with his mother, it is something that would have affected him his entire life. Though Tom is never presented as Alan's father, there is something paternal about him. Alan seems to admire him and he's a guardian and guide to Alan. Who would Alan want his father to be? A tragic creative personality who gave up his life for love. In the light room scene where Alan gets the clicker, we hear that things from his father had an almost mythical quality to young Alan. Tom such is presented as a mythical figure throughout the game. I'm not saying Tomas Zane is Alan's father. That would be cliche and trite. But Alan may have imbued Tom with characteristics he would have liked his father to have.
After playing through AW2 I think Zane is the one who wrote Wake. You see Zane’s film Nightless Nights where he is acting as the character Alan Wake, which was supposed to be before the first game, and when Wake meets Zane in the Dark Place, Zane said he asked for help to leave but could not escape because he was ultimately working with Scratch. Now knowing Scratch is Wake with the Dark Presence inside him, and sense everything created in the Dark Place becomes real, I think Wake became too powerful and freed himself leaving Zane in the Dark Place, eventually killing him.
So Alan "Scratch-ed" the idea of Tom the Poet being the protagonist and then we wonder why Mr.Scratch looks like Alan because Tom the Poet was the reflection of Alan consciousness/personality. I see what Remedy did here. So my guess is that basically Mr.Scratch is Tom the poet but as a scratched idea. This theory of yours is great It felt like the answers were always under your nose especially regarding Zane and now I see what Mr.Scratch might be.
even more confusing with the dbd crossover. the one significant thing is introduces is it is possible to escape from the dark presence. although being taken by an equally powerful and evil monster isn’t exactly a good thing. the only bright side is it is possible although unlikely to escape the entity. escape might just mean that the dark presence could come back so oddly he might be safer with the entity
The Devil and Tom Walker. Tom makes a deal with old Scratch. A short story by Washington Irvin. Some parallels with Tom Zane? He wanted to handle Scratch but what exactly did he really do? Was he tricked by Scratch when trying to reason with him?
you probably addressed some of these theories in a future video, but now after seeing yoton yo and the night springs dlc some of these are all but confirmed. Also with current context the scene of tom cutting barbra's heart out with the voice of alan and alice sound like they are reading a script playing characters for a movie (i know they are actors reading a script, but you know what i mean)
The only thing I'd say in response to you saying the original Zane wasn't retconned - it does appear in Control that no one remembers him as a poet and only as a film maker except Jesse so if that isn't retconning I don't know what is, but also wasn't Mr Scratch posing a filmmaker in American Nightmare? I need to replay it.
This filmmaker thing has a couple explanations. One that is more likely is that the original guy was a filmmaker but as an auteur he was multi faceted. He did write some unpublished poetry. That is what Alan found and presumed he was a poet. So he created the tom the poet based upon half the info.
It's all fiction inside fiction and at some point a 3rd layer of fiction. Every single game in the RCU is a story written by Alan in the dark place. Yes even Max Payne. Quantum break Connects Alan Wake and Jesse. Most people miss the connection to control in quantum break, but AWE is covering a wall in elaborate graffiti near ground 0. Also there is a book Jack can find called "Alan Wake" American Nightmare and Mr Scratch are all just an episode of Night Springs, written by Alan in the dark place. We think Alice was taken when they went to the cabin. But the truth is Alan was taken the moment he entered the back of the dinner, he never made it to the Cabin, because it wasn't there. The Alan Wake we play is a fictional version of himself. Barry was never there, Alice probably searched for Alan for years then moved on with her life. She was never taken. Neither she nor Alan ever entered the real Lake, it was all just story. Tom and Barbara is an elaborate story created by Alan to guide fictional Alan. Every story is an attempt of Alan to escape the darkplace. The biggest evidence of Alan wake 1 being nothing more than a story Alan is writing, is the drastic change of the way the Sarah looks during the game and at the closing credits. Sarah the sherrif looks like the ideal attractive fictional female sheriff, however when we see the final seens of Alan Wake 1, that take place back in reality, we see Sarah looks nothing like the character Alan was interacting with. Alan never escaped the dark place, he is still there, writing...
i hate and am disappointing that this makes so much sense, especially as a horror narrative, so much just thrown out as worthless in-universe fiction through this one reasonable theory..... i understand why fnaf fans were so pissed at dream theory now, it's just so disappointing.
I'm 13 minutes in and omg I'm loving this and how you put together small pieces that people usually overlook (myself included). Plus, continuing on with the wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness that Remedy loves, like who wrote who into existence in Alan Wake, and even stuff like Quantum Break, I love the idea of continuing on that to the point where Alan literally wrote Thomas Zane into existence as the first version of Departure, who then wrote Alan into existence. It's like a time loop! Also I love the idea that Alan's attempts to write a good ending started all the way back in his first version of the story. Like foreshadowing all his future attempts to write himself out of the Dark Place in Quantum Break and Control. 14:23 Still really love this scene. I'm not the most artistic person in the world, but I like building in Minecraft and this is *exactly* how I'd describe the process of building. I have an initial idea which morphs over time as I actually start putting blocks down. The idea always changes between what's in my head, and final execution. EDIT: Okay so your theory wasn't exactly like how I thought, but idk I still like the idea that maybe all those little pieces Alan put together to create Tom the fictional character, maybe was just some random unrelated bits and pieces he combined together. And Alan used them to create this new character which was put into the past of real reality.
A reference Remedy might be pulling from if that "Thomas Zane" who looks just like Alan turns out to be up to no good and/or somehow created by Alan could be King's The Dark Half: "Thad Beaumont is an author and recovering alcoholic who lives in the town of Ludlow, Maine. Thad's own books - cerebral literary fiction - are not very successful. However, under the pen name "George Stark", he writes highly successful crime novels about a psychopathic killer named Alexis Machine. When Thad's authorship of Stark's novels becomes public knowledge, Thad and his wife, Elizabeth, decide to stage a mock burial for his alter ego at the local cemetery, which is featured in a People magazine article. Stark's epitaph says it all: "Not A Very Nice Guy." Stark, however, emerges from the mock grave as a physical entity, complete with the personality traits that Thad exhibited while writing as Stark, such as drinking heavily and smoking Pall Mall cigarettes. He then goes on a killing spree, gruesomely murdering everyone he perceives as responsible for his "death"
To me it seems that Nightingale was going to be the original protagonist of Departure. He not only has nothing to do with Alan or Bright Falls but he doesn't really have an important role in the story (aside from being an occasional obstacle), because his role was taken away from him, and what we see in the game is what remains. His tragic past even reminds me of Casey's.
Very interesting theory, although I was kinda hoping to find plot holes in it because the idea of Zane writing Alan into existence years ago was very enticing, lol. Anyways, very hyped for Alan Wake 2, hope we finally get some answers about Zane!
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i'm probably overlooking evidence but i quite like the theory that there was once a finnish filmmaker called thomas seine, who moved to the US some time before 1970 to start a new life for an unknown reason, changed his name to zane, stopped making films and focused on poetry instead, then met barbara. i hope the who-wrote-who-debate never ends, i love it so much
Yeah, the Seine thing struck me because the only "Seine" I know of is a river in France. I had no idea it was Finnish.
@@darklingalley A river to a lake and then to an ocean :)
@@moneypits Yup👍 As far as the mythology goes, Sequana is the goddess of the river Seine, and she rides in a duck boat that looks almost identical to Tor and Odin's Viking boat
@@darklingalley Lovely :) I cannot wait for AW2
@@moneypits Almost there!!
I just beat Alan Wake 2 and now I have even more questions about Zane
Same. It is even more complicated now
@@GamingUniversityUoG Not to mention the new game + DLC that is more explicit in telling you stuff.
Will there be a video talking about it?
@@GamingUniversityUoGany chance of an update video on Zane?
The Thomas Zane in the Dark Place that Alan meets in AW2, I actually thought was Scratch in disguise. He didn't talk like Zane in the first game, not being voiced by James McCaffrey, didn't act like him, and the montage of him and Alan in Parliament Tower even has Mr. Scratch's theme from American Nightmare playing during the cutscene.
me too. But apparently its not. Hati, tor and odin keep calling wake, tom. I start to think tom and alan is the same person. After the end, alan says that he's now master of dimensions, maybe he can affect de past and/or the future now.
I think Alan is a version of Tom.. You can't create reality from nothing. Tom wrote Alan into reality with the help of Dr Darling. Literally using Dr Darlings voice for Alan Wake. (Inspiration)
The tom we meet in the dark place has been there for who knows how long. Of course he'd be acting different. Just like how Alan acts different to before he enters.
The link to Dr Darling is a video you get in the final draft version. A must watch!!!!!
Getting very speculative here but I also think that Dr Darling helped write the FBC into existence.. Creating a boot strap paradox.
Alan Wake, Thomas Zane and Mr Scratch are just different versions of the same character in the never-ending story rewriting spiral. They all have the power to rewrite each other's story.
Ahti only calls him Tom
@@silenthill4That leads even more creddance to OP's theory. Alan would've had to be an extension of Zane since Zane was alive before Alan. This would be why Ahti and the Old Gods always refer to Alan as Tom.
The term for hidden layers in a painting is called a 'pentimento', and I think describing Thomas Zane as Alan's Pentimento works perfectly.
Thank you! I'm going to save this comment. Didn't know there was a word for it.
You see this in Bob Ross paintings, where he'll paint an island, then partially if not fully obscure the island with another part of the painting. The island is still there, but only the painter is really aware that it's there. However, due to the reality altering effects of The Dark Place, the story taking on a life of its own, even Alan isn't aware of some of the facets and forces he put into motion. Of course, in 'Alan Wake II', he's completely unaware of 'Departure' because it was written by the irrational portion of his psyche - the vain, narcissistic control freak: Scratch.
I think you can see the unintended consequences in the 'AWE DLC', where Alan needed a threat to propel the heroine into action, so he gave the Hiss a voice, making it stronger, but also making the threat obvious. The Hiss was already present, was already infiltrating The Oldest House, Jesse was already on her way there, guided by Polaris, who was responding to Hedron's call for aid prior to the Hiss becoming louder. What would have happened if Alan hadn't done that? Jesse would have likely been hired by Ahti, gotten access to various parts of The Oldest House, and gotten to Hedron, probably wresting The Service Weapon from Zachariah Trench in the process once The Board became aware of the Hiss invasion and ordered Trench to vacate the position of Janitor's Assistant.
And I seriously do think there is a possibility of Alan and Tom being the same character in the real world but in parallel realities (overlapping eachothers real timelines). And the Dark Place could be an overlap that connects them with time being nonexistent or different there. There is so much evidence that could support this!
Curiously in the Alan Wake Remaster, Thomas Zane's books also appear in a shoebox in Alan's and Alice's apartment in the dresser in their bedroom. This isn't in the original though, so maybe that was Remedy incorporating another way on how Alan and Tom were already connected
Yeah i think the remaster is supposed to be the "definitive" lore accurate version. Revised to work with the themes in its sequal. Kinda meta its self lol
I do like the idea of there being after-effects of old versions of the story. In regular writing, when you change a detail, it can be very easy to see the echoes of the old version if you know what you're looking for.
Might be worth noting Odin and Tor might be immune to reality revisions. American Nightmare has that line that those touched by powers that can alter reality can remember how things were before the revision. Unless we suppose Alan also created the 1976 AWE with Departure, that could mean they weren't really 'bound' to the script the way other characters were, and that might be why they kept calling Alan Tom, remembering the intermediate reality.
No joke the reason this thought struck me about old versions of the story having an effect on things is because I'm rereading 'The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag'. That's all I'm saying in case you've never read it.
@@GamingUniversityUoG I will give it a try. Thank you!
Well, AW2 appears to strongly confirm that they're immune to a degree (though perhaps only in terms of their memory, given one key plot point) - even though they have the confusing tendency along with another friend of theirs of calling him Tom.
You're right they are immune nice
i like your theory a lot actually. the whole time i was playing i kept thinking "whose story are we living out?" because of all the intervention between Tor and Odin, Alan, Zane, Scratch, and ultimately Alice herself with her photography. Everyone had a hand in the creation and edits of the story as it unfurled, so you never knew who was responsible for what. But the more likely answer is that they ALL were responsible, each having their own draft so to speak that echoed throughout the story as it came to life.
It's the whole idea of dropping a pebble into a pond. It ripples its influence. But when we drop 8 billion into a pond those ripples all smack into each other, repel, and end up forming the story of the world as we know it.
Not just one artist but all of them.
Thomas Zane is truly one of the biggest mysteries in Alan Wake. One thing that is interesting to note is that the Tom in the AWE DLC cutscene is voiced by Ilkka Villi, which is a rather curious detail. Wonder if this has any relevance ... and I still feel like there are multiple incarnations of Zane around.
I'm eventually going to work on a video that dives into my Multiple Alan Wake theory as well. There are 100% multiple Zane's running around too. But that will wait until after AW2 since I can almost guarantee that it will provide confirmation on at least multiple Alans. We see one in the DLC chapters. One Alan is in the Cabin going insane. Another is a projection of his rational mind. The part that doesn't want to give in to the lure of oblivion in the Dark Place. Two alans at once stemming from the same person.
I was wondering why the new voice actor for Zane sounded Scandinavian - also kind of a trip that Alex Casey is also voiced by Zane's voice actor from the first game, who was also the voice actor for Max Payne 😆
And McCaffrey is ALSO the voice and face of Director Trench from Control haha
or maybe mr scratch took over thomas zane and is trying to deceive alan
@@BARDI77Or maybe Mr Scratch and Fictional Zane have always been the same person from the beginning.
I can't be the only one who found it odd to say the least when Zane told Alan to not worry about Mr Scratch, even telling him he'll replace him in the real world, then gaslighting Alan into believing it wasn't as much of a big deal as Scratch turned out to be in American Nightmare and the files of Control.
I always saw Tom the poet as the original while Thomas Zane the cineast being Tom's Mr. Scratch. Him being the tale of what would happen to Wake should he fail in his task, replaced by the dark fake that everyone will remember then as.
Only people with paranormal attributes (The old gods, Alan, Jesse) being able to remember the original.
Also I think a lot about the connection with one of our real world phenomenon, the Mandela effect.
I'm getting more on board with the idea that the filmmaker Zane is the Poet Zane's scratch.
Thomas the full name, which I find odd hasn't been mentioned a lot, has a different definition than Tom. Thomas tends to be shrugged off as twin. But I imagine a lot of names might hint at twin. Thomas SPECIFICALLY is slag for second come twin. It originates from being the second of something.
Man Zane was one of the few characters that was the mysterious thing in the series hope he'll have a role in AW2!
Oh he for sure is involved in AW2.
We can hear his voice talking to Alan on the phone in some of the clips that have been released
@@GamingUniversityUoGhope it'll be memorable role.
@@willisrose9756 i think if he isn't in the base game he may end up being in the dlc
we have a base game made of 2 campaign's and 2 dlc's meaning if there self contained instead of being in the style of control's dlc, we have the perfect candidate's for both the dark place and bright falls (well at least america in general) sides of the campaign those being zane (dark place) and Samantha wells (america),
tho getting a dlc based of going through dylan fadens nightmares as (while it wouldn't fit with the name of ether of the dlcs promised) it would fit the nightmare like dark place without being in the dark place, would be intresting.
Sam Lake writing Alan Wake writing Tom the Poet writing Young Alan.
I'm trying not to make a Neverending Story reference to this comment
I feel like Hartman's role in all this is being overlooked. He remembers Thomas Zane and is mentioned in one of the poems that was found in Ordinary. Also maybe Ordinary is way more important as a point of interest as well considering Jesse remembers reading a poem by Zane. This is more going into the whole "did Alan write Control" argument that people don't like. I've always assumed that the Zane we interact with is a bright presence, a yin to the dark presence yang. Though that doesn't mean that the bright presence is good, I think the bright presence is manipulating Alan in a more subtle way than the dark presence did.
Taking into account how many different planes of reality were all visited in Ordinary, it could be assumed that a "nexus point" taking place in Ordinary and Jesse and Dylan becoming linked to a resonance as a result could be the reason they are aware of a reality that was altered. They were already in a sense touched by forces beyond conceptual reality
this doesnt explain why barbara existed before alan was in the lake though, why she was the one that gave them the keys to the divers isle cabin as the avatar of the dark presence.
Yeah, I think the actual Zane is long gone, or is residing in his own universe away from all this, and the light presence is using his form and adapting to Alan's story much like the dark presence is doing. have you seen the movie In the Mouth of Madness? I feel like that was a huge inspiration for Alan Wake and could shed some light on which characters are real or fake
I really need to check out In the Mouth of Madness. It is referenced so often but I've never dived into it.
The diver is zane trying to escape but once jagger is done at the end of aw1 he's lost
Your theory makes Tom the Driver feel like a parallel to Mr. Scratch. They both feel like creations that gained a different purpose to what was intended. I'm curious if we would get to see the real Tom in AW2.
"A story is not a machine that does what you tell it. A story is a beast with a life of it's own." - Alan Wake
One theme Sam Lake clearly likes to play with is iteration of the same story when writing, but also in the way video games work where the same story is being played out all over the place by different people playing the same game and these things being tied together by the hero's journey (which Ahti mentions in his tango). Zane/Wake are in a way iterations or drafts of the same story.
I think that meta level thinking about video games as a medium was also part of the inspiration to immediately make Jesse the 'director' in Control - because in a video game, especially an open world game, the player is both the main character and the director.
Could it just be that Tom and Alan are the same person living in parallel realities (universes) and the Dark Place is a overlap that connects them? There was the book about Darling’s Many Worlds theory in AW2
That's an interesting theory of Thomas Zane being a residual creation of Alan's from a previous draft, I've also read the inverse of that theory: that Alan is in fact a creation of Thomas Zane's come to life. As Zane had written himself out of reality, he made Alan to continue the fight against the Dark Presence, which might explain why Alan looks like Zane, but this theory of Alan being the maker of Zane also explains why they look the same.
The Final Draft DLC almost made it seem like Dr. Darling and Zane made Wake together. That would explain the voice.
@@banmancan1894 I forgot about Dr. Darling. Now, I'm thinking there are too many Alan doppelgangers running around the Remedy Universe. That's four of them unless Scratch is truly dead this time.
I’m glad to see you’re video pop up in my feed
Got a few more coming before the game's release! Hope you enjoyed this one.
I think this was my one of my biggest questions going in. I hope we get some more Thomas Zane info in the new game. Thanks for the video!
You got it! Remedy has said that they knew Zane's backstory the entire time when writing the first game. So there is something to him. No clue if this theory comes close. Can't wait to be proved right or wrong. I don't care which lol.
Unrelated to this video. In Contol's AWE dlc I just noticed Darling's face flashes on the in game tv when Tom and Wake are talking. I'm wondering what implications this might have for Darling. I just thought it was interesting.
Yay, it's been a while since this type of video.
Yeah been trying to pump out all the Night Springs real quick so I haven't been able to get to these. Glad to be back.
A minor conflict becomes with the fact that in one of Jesse's psych eval audio logs, she discusses Thomas Zane the filmmaker or the poet with the evaluator.
Yes, we know from the AWE DLC that Alan rewrote at least part of Jesse's life to accommodate his escape attempt, facilitating some of what the Hiss did, but does that mean she was or wasn't impacted by his rewriting Thomas the Real Guy into Tom the Poet?
Regarding Mr Door -> Imdb lists Shawn Ashmore as also appearing in Alan Wake 2. If Mr Hatch is not the only Quantum Break character moving into the Remedyverse, your theory has more merit immediately.
But how does American Nightmare and Mr Scratch factor into all of this? AW2 trailers feature SCRATCH as recurring graffiti, but Mr Scratch exists almost entirely inside AWAN, doesn't he?
I still dont see that as a conflict. Either A he was always a poet and Alan repurposed his character to be a filmmaker. Or B he was always a filmmaker l. But as an Auteur he was a polyglot. Meaning he could have written poetry on the side as part of the project he was working on. All Alan found in the cabin was books of poetry left behind. With no further information Alan would think Tom Zane is a poet and wrote him as such.
Good point. This is like the theory of the child of Thomas Zane. This theory posits that there is a descendant of Tom and Barbara’s out there and that child is possibly Alan. But as far as we know, and I’m basing this on assumptions, Alan was born sometime after the disappearance of Tom and Barbara which would contradict that theory. I mean it would give a reason as to why there’s a rocking horse in the cabin Tom and Barbara lived in but still jumping to the conclusion that child is Alan is stretching it a bit. If this theory is true then could it possible that child is actually Alice? Do we know how old Alice is in the first Alan Wake game?
Ugh…now my head’s hurting from trying to figure out why there’s a rocking horse. I mean Occam’s razor says that there had to be a child but when that child was born, if before or after Barbara drowned in the lake, could make or break it. Does anyone have any theories as why there’s a rocking horse? Could it be a childhood toy that Barbara had with her? I feel like your point about reality manipulation and the question of the rocking horse will be expanded upon more in Alan Wake 2. At least I hope so. There are just a ton of mysteries in the Remedy verse that need answers.
There's an interesting parallel (which is fitting) with the concept of 'circumstantial simultaneity', where two things are not happening at the same chronological TIME but happen on the same conceptual wavelength like echoing ripples in a narrative: Things like callbacks and references but also motifs that recur, battles or encounters between characters that follow matching or mirrored beats, etc. It feels like on a lot of levels Alan's story and Thomas' story have this kind of "echo of each other going both forwards and backwards" vibe.
I think the theory holds water. I'm still playing through Alan Wake 2, but this resonates with some things I've noticed in that game.
Maybe the real author was the friends we made along the way.
I sense lots of Anime in your watch history lol
Right on! There are things that I question but I really like this theory overall. Real quick, about the manuscript pages that weren't used. According to Langston, those that were supposedly found in the real world were posted on forums and called "Departure", because Alan had once said that his new work would be a departure from his old stuff. We stopped watching previews and peeks of AW2, so some of what you showed we hadn't seen (not a huge deal) I'm really glad you mentioned about the voices. There are multiple times during the game that a version of Alan (writer in the cabin, Alan dreaming, the last line in the game) where it sounds like two voices blended together. In the dream he had at Rose's, he has to wake himself up, and tells himself to turn the light on- if you play it in reverse he says "my helmet", we show it in one of our post gameplay videos. In the end when the voices change in the "Tom and Barbara" argument, it also raised our suspicions. Then Control came along and lists a Thomas Zane as being involved in the 1970 Bright Falls AWE, they also consider Tor and Odin "persons of interest" and not suspected parautilitarians or altered individuals, diminishing their significance in a way. Alan is considered both. We can't forget to add Hartman in there too, Zane's "assistant" (whole other thing, lol) Anyway, tons more to say but I'm glad I watched this, we've been trying to avoid everything about AW2, but figured this would be safe. Great job!
8:55
OK I just had a brain blast moment. I'd never really considered that what appears in Alan's opening dream might not even be wearing the "skin" of Thomas Zane yet... and if that's true, it's recital of Tom's poem in the dream makes a lot more sense. The Bright Presence is seeing someone who, in it's eyes, looks exactly like Tom, whether in appearance or just in archetype / fate. Reciting that poem might have been the Bright Presence trying to figure out if you're Tom or not. Hell, with the slightly permeable nature of time when stuff like this is happening, it might be getting tripped up _because_ of Alan's "protagonist Zane".
It's also all very appropriate, considering how Alan Wake 2 is diving into how the Dark Place is screwing with Alan's memory and grip on what's "his work" and what isn't, that even in the first game he was starting to forget what he'd written vs. what was already true beforehand. In this framework Thomas Saine the filmmaker would have been another version of the character Alan wrote for a new story, he's just forgetting that he wrote it up now that he's diving into the story himself. _And_ it lines up with the possibility that Alex Casey is a real FBI agent who Alan previously turned into Alex Casey the private detective.
I kind of hope that your theory ends up being true on some level. It ties into the nature of the creative process _very_ well which is what Alan Wake is all about.
I'm so glad this channel exists. You bring up so many great points about Wake's character and the story he's writing that I never would have questioned. Great video as usual!
So bare with me.
So if the story isn't a loop of Thomas and Alan manipulating each other's lives, and Alan has created a fictional version of Thomas as Tom the Diver, is Tom the Diver not real enough to use the lake's power? If fragments of Alan are enough to manipulate the reality around him, as a former piece of Alan wouldn't Tom the Diver have that same power? Are we really following the same Alan within the story of the game or is that Alan the Hero a separate being, saving Alice and defeating the darkness while the real Alan is still trapped in a small haven of the lake just like the real Thomas?
I don't think Alan the Hero we play as would write his wife into any more possible danger of his own will, but we know the true Alan in the cabin in the lake would, he had done just that before making a self insert to save her from it. Thomas the Filmmaker claimed he found a way out of the Dark Place, but if the original Thomas and Alan are truly still trapped, that means that Thomas the Filmmaker is a twisted version of Alan, an evolved form of Mr. Scratch taking on the guise of Thomas. I think Thomas the Filmmaker is making the horror movie that Alan tried to abort and that will be Alan Wake 2.
I was hoping we'd get at least one more Alan Wake video from you before release! Not long to go now...
From my calculations you all have 5 more videos to be released before Alan Wake 2 drops. 3 of them are related to AW. 4/5 are already made and waiting to drop.
U literally made my jaw drop
Here's hoping AW2 doesn't disprove this too bad lol. Best we can do with the info we have. Glad you enjoyed the theory.
These are a little difficult to watch, not because they are bad in any way whatsoever but because my eagerness for AW2 is almost unbearable, I even forbade my friends from even mentioning the game until the weekend after the release when we can play it together. With that said, I have never been unhappy to to see one of your videos, it is quite the pickle you have put me in. :)
I was in a pickle to even touch this topic as well. Since we are so close to getting new information. I just really wanted to mention this thought. I'm the same thought. I have been avoiding all content related to the sequel. No joke, some of the video assets used in this one I covered my eyes when reviewing it lol. The editor has been keeping up with it all and included AW2 promo stuff.
@@GamingUniversityUoG And that is why I know it is safe to watch your videos, you wouldn't do something as nasty as spoil games for us. :)
Do you have a plan to reassess Zane after Alan Wake 2?
If Alan made characters, who were forced to live in the Dark Place for 40 years... suffered like real people... then, is Alan still a protagonist? Also, "there have to be victims along the way..." - did not seem to bother him, as long as he saves Alice. There are so many things that can easily turn him into an antagonist of the story, without him even realizing that.
Protagonist differ from a "Hero"
He very well could be considered and antihero
Yeah Protagonist just means he is our main character. I somewhat touch upon this Dilemma in 'Morality of Creation'. Part of the Alan Wake files playlist. It comes down to the age old debate of why God allowed Strife to exist within his creation in the first place. Kind of the same conversation as this.
@@GamingUniversityUoG This seemed to be more of a reference to good versus evil. A protagonist can also be an antagonist. but my takeaway from the comment was what his actions more closely resembled in a traditional good guy bad guy scenario.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: what if Alan didn't fight back by inserting himself in the story, but instead wrote it the way the Darkness wanted, and then EVERYONE dies. If we take the power of 'creation' as described by Wake at face value, then there had to be 'stakes'. He couldn't just write it as everyone lived happily ever after and there were endless rainbows and puppies. The story would self destruct. It had to be 'believable'. Now to me this always raised the question: what if Alan just refused to write anything? Did he even have the power to say 'no'? It seems, at least at first, that he was under some kind of enchantment, so maybe once the story was started it had to be completed. But what if he never wrote a single page and told Barbs to f off?
I think this is the best theory so far. If the original Zane's powers worked like Alan's, he can't MAKE things that don't exist. Alan would have had to existed, and Zane inserted the Clicker for Alan to finish the job. Alan altering reality for a version of Zane makes more sense than that. Especially with how Sam Lake has defined Alan's powers numerous times, even in American Nightmare.
What would be curious is this:
If Zane the Filmmaker is a repurposed Zane from the first draft of Departure, is Alan using that changing reality entirely? Jesse Faden is shown to remember the original poet and quoting his poems--the same one that Wells had in her shoebox. But, in the AWE DLC, she comments that now Zane is a filmmaker and that she always gets those mixed up. But, it's shown Jesse can remember the previous way reality was.
So... does her memory change because Alan used her in the story for AWE?
I have QUESTIONS, Mr. Dean of Uni and Sam Lake!!
Personally, having Jesse suddenly remember that Zane is a 'Filmmaker' only after she peaks into the Spiral Door is what I point to to support that Alan has changed things. The entire game she is insistent that he is a poet. Not once does she ever question this. Then out of nowhere she 'remembers differently'.
I honestly question if she is immune to the reality altering effects. It is said anyone who has direct content with these powers is immune to the changes. We all presumed she had since she has access to Zane's work as a kid. However, Samantha Wells finds copies of them in a shoebox in the town of Ordinary. It's possible Jesse simply found some that survived in a shoebox too. Which would get around this loophole in her memory.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Jesse's comment about always getting them mixed up suggests that her memory of Zane being a poet is not completely overwritten so she seems to be at least somewhat resistant to the changes
@@coolsenjoyer Likely due to feedback of her being a character in-part written by Alan, but also having The Board and Polaris in her head making her far harder to completely overwrite.
Honestly thinking the nature of The Board and Polaris likely makes Jessie unique in her being probably immune to a Mr.Scratch/Tom the Poet/Diver/Filmaker situation. As for it to truly be a version of Jessie, she'd need to have at least Polaris, if not The Service Weapon. Which at this point, both are singular entities/groups. So to make a Mr.Scratch or Tom, Alan would need to somehow duplicate them without tearing reality apart.
@@coolsenjoyer also it came to my mind that young Jesse's interview with the psychiatrist and I think it adds to this: They were discussing a poem that Jesse says was written by Thomas Zane, but then the psychiatrist says that it's weird because they only find a filmmaker with that name. Then Jesse is like what? no, I'm pretty sure he is a poet, he wrote this poem, and the psychiatrist then diverts saying that maybe it was Jesse who wrote it, trying to make a sense from "Jesse's contradiction" or to "prove" she was kinda making it up. But Jesse insist that she didn't write it and it was Zane the poet.
But yeah, the way Jesse says she keeps mixing them up may indicate that there is resistance in her mind to the power of reality rewriting so she doesn't get completely affected, as if the change in reality is trying to get in her head but maybe polaris fights it back in a way, so it doesn't get deep completely. Very interesting.
The sequel really doubles down on the "was he actually a filmmaker?" angle. Though it never specifically commits to it, I think "Are we seeing Zane or Scratch in disguise or Zane but possessed by the dark presence in general?" is always a lingering factor. I don't necessarily need to the answer, but as with any mystery box story I always hope for a sense that the writers themselves know a concrete answer (because stories where you can tell there's no explaination, just a series of things the writer thought would be cool just aren't as satisfying).
This is the best and most believable theory I found so far on YT. Thanks for sharing 🫶
You got it dude!
It seems very intentional now that the inkblots that cover their faces on the old Thomas and Barbra pictures look like deer masks.....
Greatly put together and beautifully written & narrated. I am so glad I found your channel after Control and have a place of shared passion for Alan Wake and Remedy! You rock ❤
Fascinating theory. Feel there's more to the story, some further mystery, but this i think is definitely a big step forward to unraveling it.
I 100% believe that I'll be corrected in some ways once the game comes out. And I dont mind if I am. The mystery is the best part
I love how open to interpretation this is, though I hope Remedy does give us some definite answers in AW2. I don't think there's any knockout arguments for any of the theories. You could argue that Zane deliberately imitated Alan's style so the page fit into Departure, for example.
My current pet theory is that Tom the Filmmaker wrote the script of Tom the Poet (the 1970 AWE), which would suggest that all of that was premeditated. That would explain things like the Tom the Poet posters we see at the start of AW, and why he is still somewhat remembered, though not as a poet.
Spoiler it's even more confusing
Random thought, I apologize if someone already brought it up
There is a point where Alan is saying how Barbara was now editing the manuscript, and even though Alan was writing faster, Barbara was turning it more into a horror story.
What if Barbara was slowly adding Thomas Zane into the story from the beginning?
I think it more likely that Barbara was making sure the story would end badly in general.
maybe she was adding the pointless death's like the guy who tried to get the the andersons barn, he didn't need to die but he did.
I love this theory and I think it could definitely be true. I especially think that the effects of “editing” and previous versions affecting the “final” draft will play a role in AW2. We can see this in the jumbled way some of the interactions happen in both AW and Control/AWE
I was reading a book recently where this idea was a main plot point. First attempts at creating a universe didn't work so the 'Artist' painted over it. But certain entities from the original work remained in the mirror reality. Wonder why it made me think about Alan Wake lol
What if somehow they both wrote each other into existence? Tom wrote that a thriller novelist would write about a poet called Thomas Zane who wrote about a thriller novelist etc etc.
I don't see how there can be a separate fictional Thomas Zane and a real Thomas Zane when the dark presence makes fiction and reality one in the same.
I liked that you haven’t been talking about Alan Wake 2 as much lately now that we’ve gotten so much gameplay and trailers (even though I know you want to lol).
Probably should be to ride the hype train. But I'm avoiding spoilers so I'm in the dark about all the trailers
So the bright prescense is Allan wakes work?... Tom the poet? .. not what replaced Thomas Zane the real person? Or did the real Thomas Zane leave behind the bright prescense in ordr to help someone and Allan used it as Tom the Poet ?
No the bright presence is probably a really old entity. We only have one reference to it so we really dont know any details past the name.
What I love about the songs in the Remedyverse is that they help flesh out aspects of the universe and deliver exposition in a unique way.
fun. I think the hitchhiker at the start of the game is likely a remnant of Jake Fischer. and Jake's whole Bright Falls prequel story is likely a first rough draft for the game (with the wife disappearing from the car much like alice disappearing form the cabin). That video series ends with alan wake driving up to hear from a cop that someone lost control of their car, probably due to a deer (i think this is how the real alan actually entered brightfalls, and was the first seed planted in the story he was about to write). The whole video series started with a diver dragging jake's body bag from the lake, which could represent the light/dark presences in the lake starting to put things in alan's head for inspiriation. So the hitchhiker is pissed at alan for being discarded - in that jake's wild story was an earlier idea that was ultimately discarded.
... but i also think the whole game of Alan Wake represents the act of you, the player, rewriting a story. Which is why you hear typing and find pages along the way like little bursts of creativity. there are a lot of clues that suggest each scene has been revisited multiple times (like the bridge train crossing one way, full, in the opening cinematic. then crossing the opposite way, empty, in the opening ferry scene). I think this echoes the whole idea of a video game, where you can die and restart a level over and over until you get it right.
I love this theory and if there won't be any definite explanation in Alan Wake 2 I choose this to be my canon. Amazing work!
I’m just saying, the whole ‘who created who’ is basically ‘which came first, the chicken or the egg’ well, to me at least. Thomas Zane is such a mysterious character, especially since Zane looks EXACTLY like Alan in the AWE DLC, and even in the (I believe to be non canon) Alan Wake novelization, Cynthia Weaver mentions that Alan looks similar to Zane and I believe she mentions that he also has that same stubbornness that Zane has.
Zane and Alan are so similar to each other, like, to the point that I can’t discern who wrote who. I also am curious if that, since they are so similar, If say, Zane wrote Alan, if Zane based some aspects of himself into Alan, or vice versa.
Idk I’m just heavy into theorizing Alan Wake, and with the sequel so close by, I plan to go through all the games and make my own theories and predictions on what I believe will happen in Alan Wake 2.
Great video!
I really love your channel and videos!
Probably the only issue with this particular theory, in my opinion, is that Alan actually remembered everything long before he opened Zane's shoebox. He remembered how the Dark Presence trapped Alice, and also remembered how he worked on the Departure manuscript and wrote himself as the protagonist. If it was Alan who made Tom the Diver write that page about Wake's childhood, he would definitely remember it.
Moreover, there is not a single page of Alan's manuscript that would indicate the contents of the box. Wake just wrote about Zane's "secret weapon", leaving Tom the Diver a part to fill in.
I mean Alan saw the stuff about Tom the moment he arrived in the cabin. Really I wanted to get the community speculating again as we count down the days to the sequel lol
@@GamingUniversityUoG, hi!
You know, after some research, I actually want to take my words back.
When Alan got to Cynthia, he didn't remember anything about a well-lit room and a shoe box, although they are mentioned in Departure. This may seem like a contradiction, because Alan remembered working on the manuscript at the end of episode 4, but for some reason he still does not remember its plot in episode 5. Apparently, his memory was only partially restored, because while working on Departure, Alan was under the influence of a dark presence and did not think soberly, which, by the way, he even mentions. Therefore, it is quite possible that the shoe box and Zane's page about Alan's childhood in it is really Wake's idea. I think you have made very firm and convincing arguments in this regard. As always.
*_(Time to do some fun speculating/mindless ranting!)_*
Maybe Tom wrote himself & Barbara back into existence from the Dark Place or that pocket dimension he created for himself and his paramour, not as themselves but reincarnated as Alan & Alice but it was a flawed process just like the process of removing Tom & Barbara from history was incomplete, likely thanks to the Dark Presence. This could be another explanation as to why Tor & Odin see Alan as Tom & why Alan made many of the mistakes Tom did; the Anderson brothers _(weird that they took a father and son name set when Odin had two brothers called Vili and Vé)_ are touched by the Dark Presence so may be able to see things others can not and people develop patterns and habits, especially when they are rooted in trauma, and breaking those patterns requires a shatter point where the person is forced to deal with them and that is precisely what Alan endured during his time in the purgatory of Bright Falls.
_Edited to force in additional gibbering._
Just think how many new wild Remedy-verse theories we're all going to have in a few weeks time. It's about to get even weirder around these here parts.
I dont think we will stop making new videos for like a year lol. I mean I've gone nearly 4 years on Alan Wake and Control and barely scratched the surface
What if "Scratch" is actually means scratched version of a character from 1st version of the story, Zane - protagonist was scratched from the story as protagonist and become Mister "Scratch"- Mister "Noone", forgotten character that now angry and want to become main character again...
That may be a double meaning for it. The primary reason for the name Mr. Scratch is because it is an old nickname for the Devil. Old Scratch.
Bright Falls, Night Springs, Projectors?
I like this theory, seam plausible to me, unless we find out new details in AW2.
That's why I was hesitant to write this one. We have new info coming at the end of the month. I can almost guarantee there will be new wrinkles that will require a new theory. Either way it is fun to spark the Zane speculation again before the game's release.
@@GamingUniversityUoG absolutely, more theories for the god of theories, lore of Remedy-verse exist to spawn them 😁
Speaking of which, if we looking at relationship between Zane and Wake through prism of question of "who is the real author", we should consider that none of them are. Devs already played cheek and tongue with idea of character self awareness and breaking forth wall with Dylan and Max Payne watching player watching them. Remedy also rarely give definitive answers, and since main theme of AW is creative process, I won't be surprised if we find out that both of them simultaneously author and creation infinitely effecting each other and whomever writing them, because how can you be sure who is in charge of creative process? How story comes to mind of an author? Did he or she have any control over it really? Or, as Alan said himself, story is a beast of its own, and it wants stuff from the writer, or it will fall apart. Which means it exist somewhere in complete state and wants to be expressed in certain way.
Heavy spoiler for this comment:
A journalist from GamesRadar visited AW2’s live action set and wrote an article about it. He mentioned that Thomas Zane the actor is in the game, played by Ilkka Villi, just like Control AWE. Also, this time TZ plays a more antagonistic character since he’s been kept in the dark place for a very long time. This speaks to your theory of the Drafts. TZ the actor/character still exists after he was written to a different direction from the draft, and is set to have been trapped in the dark place longer than Alan is because of the story Alan wrote for him. He has the appearance of Alan but not his voice because he was supposed to be a mirror to Alan, but speaks differently(has a different tones in writing).
But then here’s the question: why is he back? Because Alan needs him as a character to help him in the story again? Or is he called back by the Dark Place?
Also, would we ever get to find out what happened with the real Thomas Zane, or did he simply die in the Dark Place?
Thanks for the warning. Wont be reading this comment since I dont want to know anything. I'll come back later after the game is released.
I have another hypothesis: Sam Lake is (fictionally) involved in the story, a la Grant Morrison. Grant regularly makes themselves a character and interacts with the story's characters, but still maintains control, because they are the creator. You also mentioned Stephen King, and he does this, too. I propose a fictional Sam Lake is the tie to all of these characters. He controls them all and recycles them. The universes overlap because it's all Sam Lake. Sam using characters he needs Alex Casey gets reused; Tom gets repurposed; there are multiple "drafts" of Alan Wake; Jesse is retooled Beth Wilder.
Forgive me, I'm not very well versed in Wake lore because that game felt pretty much like a fetch quest, especially that one part where you're at gates or something and his Agent is just outside I REALLY HATED ALAN WAKE so my one question is
Can you make a video that simply exposes the Oceanview Motel and the universes behind the doors and what the door symbols identify? Or have you already done this and I missed it? FYI I still haven't played Quantum Break because I'm still very upset that I bought Alan Wake on Steam and that was almost immediately before it finally landed on PS which is where I actually played in in a couple of days. I also saw Primer, which was pretty good.
I'll go even further. My theory is that the Thomas Zane we see in Alan Wake 1 and Mr Scratch are one and the same entity, The Dark Place itself, and "Helped" Alan save Alice, to Trap him and take his place in the real world.
After all, Zane told Alan in Alan Wake 1 that he shouldn't worry about Mr Scratch, which has been proven by American Nightmare and Control that he absolutely was something to be worried about, which means that the so called Thomas lied, leading me to believe both are Avatars for The Dark Place.
Reminds me a little bit of Alessas story from SH1.
A character that has been split in two.
Or splitting a number in order to solve a problem.
Either way - really exited for AW2. Hope its good.
Cool theory, but leaves me with a couple of questions. How come there was an island (which wasn't supposed to exist) on the lake when Alan & Alice arrived initially?
While the dark presence could've been messing about our reality, it seems wayy too powerful to:
1. Plot an argument between Alan and Alice so that he leaves here
2. Make a whole island with house and everything as close to reality as possible as to not trip up the former couple
3. Be able to capture alice and take her to the dark depths
This reeks of someone else having written the events before. I highly doubt the dark presence was so powerful to manifest such strong changes in reality - otherwise it probably didn't even need Alan in the first place.
(it's also a bit weird how the story starts out perfectly - Alan and Alice on a boat, with mott the kidnapper, and also Pat Maine who plays an important role in Alan's escape later. Like actors, like pawns in a play who've just been woken up as they're pushed by a puppetmaster to do their bidding.... It all seems very deliberate IMO)
I believe Alan Wake is the "real" version, and Tom Zane is a time-warped, re-written version of Alan Wake written into existence during the events of "Departure".
It's the effects of the spiral, new versions of the story layering onto of the old, the same but different.
Each rung of the ladder more rounded and real then the last, until eventually they write each other into existence.
Alan created Tom as a guide in his story, Tom wrote of Alan to justifie the clickers escape route, and Alan wrote Tom writing about Alan..
Spirals upon spirals..
Round and around and around we go
Where will we stop
We do and don't know
As a certain crazy physicist once said. "Not to be in the know, but be in the mystery."
Btw - one meta thing with AW1 - Zane is voiced by James McCaffrey, just like Casey is voiced by him in AW2. So this voice for Alan is a protagonist voice in his writing. 😂
Relating to what Alice says in the post-credits scene of AW2, the real Thomas Zane (a.k.a. Thomas Seine) chose "destruction". He created a pocket Universe within the Dark Place (the Shadow's dimension) and effectively wrote himself out of this Universe. All that's left is his residual image within the Dark Place, the idea of him, being used and reshaped like clay putty. Alan literally says, during the first game, that Zane would help him. "I will make him." That's the smoking gun about who really wrote the page about young Alan: not the real Zane, but Alan's Zane.
Amazing Video and Theory. I'm so thrilled for Alan Wake 2 and all the possible answers after all this time.
I can almost guarantee a few tears will be shed once I finally boot up AW2 for the first time on stream. 13 years has been such a wait to check up on our boy
Just wondering. Did you ever update this theory or something post AW2?
With the clues and more mysteries revealed in AW2, I think you have to revisit your idea why Anderson brothers refer to Alan as Tom.
Thank you for doing all the detective work. You are like the VaatiVidya of Remedy.
I fully expected to. I'm still on board for multiple versions of same but there is definitely another reason for the old Gods. Considering Ahti does it too.
I really need a new Thomas Zane video with Alan Wake 2. This is my favourite video on your channel.
Tor and Odin are not mistaken by their dementia(?) when they call Alan by Tom. They are the only characters who are aware of how Alan's writing affects reality, and they know what is fact and what is fiction from Alan's story.
Alan is Tom and Tom is Alan; they are one and the same person.
Think of that "baby" universe... could Alan's reality be that universe/dream conjured by Thomas Zane which was now falling apart? Had Paradise now turned into a nightmare?
Yep I mentioned there would be a lot that I'd need to adjust on this one. Seems like the only thing that is still settled is more than one Zane.
Wait, but the phrase "your friends will meet him when you are gone" still haz me confused
I'm glad you mentioned that scene at the end. I think most people never even paid attention to it. I always wondered why Alan's voice was calling out at the end. By the way, did you notice that the fortnite Alan seems to have a band that says, "find alice?" So that must be to guide him, or maybe she's been taken by Scratch.
I swear if there is Lore relevance in Fornite I'm out lmao
Best theory I’ve seen on this game. Can’t wait to see what content you start making after Alan Wake 2 drops!
Incredible video. I'm always impressed by the level of research on some of these topics.
What I'm still unsure of in your thesis is this: Did the events of Tom Zane/Barbara Jaeger/The Darkness actually happen? If not, what DID happen to the 'real' Tom Zane? At one point you present evidence of the real Zane versus Tom the Poet(Alan's) writing. If the real Zane wasn't 'special', why is he effectively written out of history? Why are his writings (the real ones I presume) still found only in shoeboxes? Why do only paracausal abled people seem to remember him at all?
A larger question I have, going back to your video about the Morality of Creation: Do any of these people even exist if Wake didn't write them? Did the FBC/Jessie Faden already exist and were on the course show in the main game of Control, only to be 'contacted' by Wake in AWE? Or were they a creation of Wake from the start? Wake is referenced in Quantum Break, but none of the events or characters (with possible exception of Hatch/Door) seem to actually relate to him in any way. Did he create Monarch/the End of Time, or are these events 'real'?
Thomas Zane went from originally being a famous poet and ended up writing himself "out of existence", with only a few of his essential writings to apparently support anyone fighting against the Dark Presence.
But later, we start seeing that Thomas "Tom" Zane the poet is now being referred to as Tom Zane, the famous European filmmaker... This is definitely not an oversight. Even in Control, Jesse Faden remembers poems by Thomas Zane, but she is repeatedly told that such a person is unheard of.
And then in the AWE dlc is when we see Alan's doppelganger refer to himself as "Tom Zane". I get the feeling the idea of Thomas Zane has been twisted by the Darkness or Mr. Scratch, to abuse the trust that Alan developed with the true Thomas Zane.
The way that Alan talks about writing--the way writing and the creative process is so ingrained in the lore--always hits me just as hard as the first time I played. I love this game so much, and I'm always so happy when you post something new about the Remedy universe. I practically drop everything to watch it ASAP.
I think you're correct about the difference in writing--Zane's flows so very different than Alan's, who was more...concise? in his sentence structure. I also agree with your conclusion that Alan wrote the Clicker page.
However as a thought, I will say that sometimes a writer's style changes based on the medium. It's possible that when writing stories without a poetic format, Zane's style condenses and is similar to Alan's. (Mine used to do this as I moved between poetry and storycraft, both during and after I'd mostly solidified my own style.) Also If they're 'rhyming' because of Alan's plot interference, could there be enough of a (passive) familiarity on Zane's end to mimic Alan's style by mistake? My friends and I who used to work together when writing stories waaay back in HS would sometimes have that happen, where we'd mimic each other and only realize it after due to handwriting and color of pen.
Again, I agree with you, but these just popped into my head as I watched.
I can't wait for AW2!!
This is my favorite theory. Thank you for all your videos.
You got it dude! Now I'm waiting to be proved wrong when the game comes out lol
Ok but what about part in Control when Zane said that they are both co-authors of the story? It wouldn't exactly fit in this whole Alan is creator of everything narration doesn't it?
My theory would be that Thomas Zane created Alan Wake so Alan could create Thomas Zane. The Zane-Truck in AW dlc says that his not an author of Alan's story simply because it's not Zane - it is Bright Presence (in a form of truck lights).
I think such recursive-paradox theory would rhyme quite well with one of the Night Springs episodes.
I don't know.. everything in this universe is super-weird :D
Ok hear me out, at the end of AW2, Alan will write a book about Finnish game designer called Sam Lake
I wish Sam Lake would just told how things are xD It would be very interesting to hear if this is really this intricate OR maybe all it takes is a smart story like this, so it can go in maaaany directions like here in this video. People can come up with different scenarios and they sound good.
Sam and Remedy have known since AW1. I think we will get an answer in the sequel finally. Or at least more info
I have a stupid theory but, what if Tom Zane is Alan’s father. Alan’s mother gave him the clicker which is said to be from his father. The clicker is the switch that was connected to the lamp Alan uses in AW2. And I’m pretty sure the lamp belonged to Zane.
What a deep dive! Indeed, this is perhaps the most confusing topics in the entire connected universe.
We'll see just how wrong I am in a few weeks lol
Potential alternative version of this theory which depends heavily on the trustworthiness of Cynthia Weaver (or potential lack of) given the NG+ intro's strangest inclusion (only just started):
Thomas Seine really was a Finnish filmmaker and he really did start an artist's commune in Bright Falls, and he really did make a movie called Tom the Poet.
This film is what _initially_ inspired Alan's Departure narriative and started the Diver's Isle loop. In fact, maybe the reason Departure v1 didn't work is because it was plagiarism until he made the story a sequel.
Since the horror story started to become true, people's memories were altered. Thomas Zane was still seen as a ghost story, so it was an easy enough change to make.
Maybe changes like that don't last forever, and eventually people started to remember...
Biggest stumbling block to this version of events is the Tom the Poet film's supposed cast which implies it's really about Alan's story.
(...Maybe Alan's just falling prey to his own edits again.)
Ok hear me out Mr. Scratch is Thomas Zane.
I think there is an argument to be made about Scratch and the TZ in the Control AWE scene.
@@GamingUniversityUoG Yea, the mannerisms of Zane in the AWE cutscene are all wrong. Gave me Scratch vibes hard when watching it. But then isn't Scatch dead? Did Wake not kill him off in American Nightmare? Did those events even happen?
I think an important aspect is Alan never knew his father. Even if Alan was happy with his mother, it is something that would have affected him his entire life.
Though Tom is never presented as Alan's father, there is something paternal about him. Alan seems to admire him and he's a guardian and guide to Alan. Who would Alan want his father to be? A tragic creative personality who gave up his life for love.
In the light room scene where Alan gets the clicker, we hear that things from his father had an almost mythical quality to young Alan. Tom such is presented as a mythical figure throughout the game.
I'm not saying Tomas Zane is Alan's father. That would be cliche and trite. But Alan may have imbued Tom with characteristics he would have liked his father to have.
After playing through AW2 I think Zane is the one who wrote Wake. You see Zane’s film Nightless Nights where he is acting as the character Alan Wake, which was supposed to be before the first game, and when Wake meets Zane in the Dark Place, Zane said he asked for help to leave but could not escape because he was ultimately working with Scratch. Now knowing Scratch is Wake with the Dark Presence inside him, and sense everything created in the Dark Place becomes real, I think Wake became too powerful and freed himself leaving Zane in the Dark Place, eventually killing him.
So Alan "Scratch-ed" the idea of Tom the Poet being the protagonist and then we wonder why Mr.Scratch looks like Alan because Tom the Poet was the reflection of Alan consciousness/personality. I see what Remedy did here. So my guess is that basically Mr.Scratch is Tom the poet but as a scratched idea. This theory of yours is great It felt like the answers were always under your nose especially regarding Zane and now I see what Mr.Scratch might be.
even more confusing with the dbd crossover.
the one significant thing is introduces is it is possible to escape from the dark presence. although being taken by an equally powerful and evil monster isn’t exactly a good thing. the only bright side is it is possible although unlikely to escape the entity. escape might just mean that the dark presence could come back so oddly he might be safer with the entity
The Devil and Tom Walker.
Tom makes a deal with old Scratch.
A short story by Washington Irvin. Some parallels with Tom Zane? He wanted to handle Scratch but what exactly did he really do? Was he tricked by Scratch when trying to reason with him?
you probably addressed some of these theories in a future video, but now after seeing yoton yo and the night springs dlc some of these are all but confirmed.
Also with current context the scene of tom cutting barbra's heart out with the voice of alan and alice sound like they are reading a script playing characters for a movie (i know they are actors reading a script, but you know what i mean)
This was really awesome. I’ve been a huge Alan Wake fan since it released, but I never made these connections.
The only thing I'd say in response to you saying the original Zane wasn't retconned - it does appear in Control that no one remembers him as a poet and only as a film maker except Jesse so if that isn't retconning I don't know what is, but also wasn't Mr Scratch posing a filmmaker in American Nightmare? I need to replay it.
This filmmaker thing has a couple explanations. One that is more likely is that the original guy was a filmmaker but as an auteur he was multi faceted. He did write some unpublished poetry. That is what Alan found and presumed he was a poet. So he created the tom the poet based upon half the info.
It's all fiction inside fiction and at some point a 3rd layer of fiction.
Every single game in the RCU is a story written by Alan in the dark place. Yes even Max Payne. Quantum break Connects Alan Wake and Jesse. Most people miss the connection to control in quantum break, but AWE is covering a wall in elaborate graffiti near ground 0. Also there is a book Jack can find called "Alan Wake"
American Nightmare and Mr Scratch are all just an episode of Night Springs, written by Alan in the dark place. We think Alice was taken when they went to the cabin. But the truth is Alan was taken the moment he entered the back of the dinner, he never made it to the Cabin, because it wasn't there. The Alan Wake we play is a fictional version of himself.
Barry was never there, Alice probably searched for Alan for years then moved on with her life. She was never taken. Neither she nor Alan ever entered the real Lake, it was all just story. Tom and Barbara is an elaborate story created by Alan to guide fictional Alan. Every story is an attempt of Alan to escape the darkplace.
The biggest evidence of Alan wake 1 being nothing more than a story Alan is writing, is the drastic change of the way the Sarah looks during the game and at the closing credits. Sarah the sherrif looks like the ideal attractive fictional female sheriff, however when we see the final seens of Alan Wake 1, that take place back in reality, we see Sarah looks nothing like the character Alan was interacting with.
Alan never escaped the dark place, he is still there, writing...
i hate and am disappointing that this makes so much sense, especially as a horror narrative,
so much just thrown out as worthless in-universe fiction through this one reasonable theory.....
i understand why fnaf fans were so pissed at dream theory now, it's just so disappointing.
I'm 13 minutes in and omg I'm loving this and how you put together small pieces that people usually overlook (myself included). Plus, continuing on with the wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness that Remedy loves, like who wrote who into existence in Alan Wake, and even stuff like Quantum Break, I love the idea of continuing on that to the point where Alan literally wrote Thomas Zane into existence as the first version of Departure, who then wrote Alan into existence. It's like a time loop!
Also I love the idea that Alan's attempts to write a good ending started all the way back in his first version of the story. Like foreshadowing all his future attempts to write himself out of the Dark Place in Quantum Break and Control.
14:23 Still really love this scene. I'm not the most artistic person in the world, but I like building in Minecraft and this is *exactly* how I'd describe the process of building. I have an initial idea which morphs over time as I actually start putting blocks down. The idea always changes between what's in my head, and final execution.
EDIT: Okay so your theory wasn't exactly like how I thought, but idk I still like the idea that maybe all those little pieces Alan put together to create Tom the fictional character, maybe was just some random unrelated bits and pieces he combined together. And Alan used them to create this new character which was put into the past of real reality.
A reference Remedy might be pulling from if that "Thomas Zane" who looks just like Alan turns out to be up to no good and/or somehow created by Alan could be King's The Dark Half:
"Thad Beaumont is an author and recovering alcoholic who lives in the town of Ludlow, Maine. Thad's own books - cerebral literary fiction - are not very successful. However, under the pen name "George Stark", he writes highly successful crime novels about a psychopathic killer named Alexis Machine. When Thad's authorship of Stark's novels becomes public knowledge, Thad and his wife, Elizabeth, decide to stage a mock burial for his alter ego at the local cemetery, which is featured in a People magazine article. Stark's epitaph says it all: "Not A Very Nice Guy."
Stark, however, emerges from the mock grave as a physical entity, complete with the personality traits that Thad exhibited while writing as Stark, such as drinking heavily and smoking Pall Mall cigarettes. He then goes on a killing spree, gruesomely murdering everyone he perceives as responsible for his "death"
To me it seems that Nightingale was going to be the original protagonist of Departure. He not only has nothing to do with Alan or Bright Falls but he doesn't really have an important role in the story (aside from being an occasional obstacle), because his role was taken away from him, and what we see in the game is what remains. His tragic past even reminds me of Casey's.
Thank you for this amazing theory. Looking forward to playing Alan Wake 2 and finding new evidences!❤
Dude this is fantastic! I think you may be spot on!
Very interesting theory, although I was kinda hoping to find plot holes in it because the idea of Zane writing Alan into existence years ago was very enticing, lol. Anyways, very hyped for Alan Wake 2, hope we finally get some answers about Zane!