Who Is The Kanto Champion - A Pokemon Theory
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ส.ค. 2020
- Who was the original Kanto champion before Trainer Red and Blue? Was Lance the final member of the Elite Four? Or was there another trainer holding the Champion title that Blue had to defeat before his battle with Red? #AD Check Out Pokemon Masters: app.adjust.com/39p7vp6?campai...
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More about this video:
Was there a Kanto region champion before Blue? The anime gives some hints to the answer of this question and who Blue had to defeat after Lance before taking the title of Champion before his inevitable defeat in battle at the hands of Trainer Red. But what about in the video games? The theme of being the strongest trainer possible is presented to you when you start your journey through the Kanto region, but it's never explicitly stated who you have to defeat in order to take the title of Champion. Today, in partnership with Pokemon Masters, we take a look at the History of the title of Champion in the Kanto region from Pokemon. - เกม
I think Oak was the champion at some point in Kanto, but at the beginning of the story there's been no champion since he retired. Because 1. No one can get all 8 badges, and 2. None of the elite 4 can beat all other 3 trainers. The Blue is the first person to beat all 4 elite four so he becomes champion by default. And then you and him have a battle to really see who will be the next champion.
Kanto has no Champion; nobody has best the Elite 4 before Blue.
Lance: "I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! ..Or you'd have been"
Pokemon Journeys is honestly
so weird and strange that i have
not yet decided if i will accept it
as Canon.
@@loturzelrestaurant
That quote is from the original RBY, not Journeys
Blue is objectively the first ever Champion
@@Athrun000 yeah exactly. the way it was supposed to go is there is an elite 4, and whoever can beat all of them becomes the champion, so the player becomes champion by beating lance. However, because your rival also beat the elite 4, you engage in a tiebreaker to figure out the true champion.
There wasn't one before Blue.
I feel like their intention was that nobody had beaten the Elite 4 before Blue, and that's how he became champion. They even hint at it in the dialogue - "You are now champion! Or you would be if Blue hadn't gotten there first", that sort of thing.
It's the future games that made it so the champion was a set person at the end of the elite 4. They might as well just call them the Elite 5 at this point.
I feel like you had a "champion battle" against Blue in Gen 1 because he'd just won. I feel like their intention was that there are multiple champions, ie anyone who beats the Elite 4 is a champion.
That's a really interesting take I hadn't;t considered! I love the idea!
LiveHedgehog Well clearly otherwise the Hall of Fame would not exist beforehand.
I always assumed that Lance was demoted to the 4th elite 4 when defeated by Blue and whoever was the 1st elite 4 got kicked out by the time you got there.
@@MaoSeraphine In the pokemon generations anime, blue beats all the normal Elite four members. A 5th unknown one isn't there
Yeah, this is always the impression I got... it was an empty seat until Blue beat Lance
Time to reveal the truth about the True Champion of Kanto!
I think your right. Love your video's
What if the old champ died during the poke-war and johto shairs an elite 4 due to the settling of treaties.
I just thought about it, what if oak was the old champion but left the spot open to whoever took down the elite four so he could focus on being a professor.
Not sure if you have done this or are planning to do this but are you ever going to do a run on any game using just bird pokemon
But that is just a theory a game theory!
I like to think of Oak stepping down like Red does in GSC, however maybe the corruption of the League may have been a encouragement to focus more on the research for him unlike Red’s goal to just get stronger. Also the nod in the Let’s Go games fake out might have been a even bigger hint that maybe he used to be champion
Wait in the let’s go games it’s xtra confusing Because you fight red in postgame after you become champion but wasn’t he the champ
Teej -bot I think Let’s Go takes place after Red has already stepped down (but in Let’s Go cannon he never did stop Team Rocket so it’s already conflicts with the Johto games)
That makes me think of how Mustard stepped down after the Chairman at the time tried to get him to participate in a rigged match(as well as his partner dying) as well as the theory that Leon is a fraud with rigged matches. It would be surprising if there was corruption in most if not all of the Pokémon Leagues of the Pokémon world.
Or you know, he just got tired of it? Being champion is all well and good when you're a child or young adult but imagine having to juggle being on call for challengers, a job as a researcher, and a family.
my gameplay - pokemon masters th-cam.com/video/KhRHGh7Deto/w-d-xo.html
I always assumed the champion was lance. Every time a champion gets beat he/she becomes an elite four and the lowest elite four gets kicked out. So Blue beats Lance and he gets moved down to elite four.
Maybe they were all champions at one point?
That would explain the shuffle between gens 1 and 2. Koga , Karen, and Will win, making Red an E4 while kicking out Agatha and Lorelei. Then Lance comes back and Red drops out.
@@dominicmoras4283 well according to the anime, all the elite 4 members were once the league winners, as they were not able to defeat the Champion they settle as the elite 4. Maybe the lowest elite 4 member gets kicked out. Oh yeah and I am saying this as it was said by Flint of Sinnoh elite 4 he told Ash about how he won the league in order to motivate Ash.
Also this sort of makes sense, maybe Lance was the original Champ and Koga was the lowest e4 member, when Blue beat Lance he stepped down a number and became the last e4 and maybe Koga went back to Fucshia city as the gym leader. Later when Red gives up his Champion status he returns as the Champion and Koga gets called back to the e4.
@@sayandeepbiswas902 Koga would have been too weak to be Elite 4 in rby. Moreso in rb than y though he is still far weaker in yellow than Lorelei a much larger level disparity than you would expect.
@@matthewdavenport9549 well the level of one's Pokemon don't matter. We already know that gym leaders are supposed to have stronger Pokemon as well. They just use the Pokemon that is close to challengers level so that they have a fighting chance. And we know this thanks to Pokemon Origins.
You expected Red or Blue to be the champion, but It was I, Dio, the whole time!
NANI
What a Twist!
th-cam.com/video/7HRDejZnGrQ/w-d-xo.html
Oh my god * in old man Joseph *
Finally a worthy opponent, now we must battle! Charizard!
I think Kanto was probably champion-less for a long time before Blue came along, either because he was the first ever champion or because the last champion just resigned or died or something, and nobody had been able to complete the gym challenge and beat the elite four since then. If that's the case, it would also help explain why Red & Blue are so legendary in the pokemon world, even among other champions and such. Nobody is able to beat the Indigo league for years, then the 10-year-old grandson of professor Oak comes along and takes the title, only to be dethroned the same day by another kid the same age! That'd make headlines for sure. And perhaps professor Oak helped set up the league, like Kukui did in Alola, which would explain why he would be the one to guide new champs into the Hall of Fame.
It would've been cool to actually face Professor Oak as a secret final boss like was with Red in Gold and Silver as not only was there battle data and lore within both the games and manga to imply that he was the Champion but in Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee, Lance said that the last trainer that you were going to face was Professor Oak... until they did an UNO Reverse Card as it's revealed it's your rival by saying "Well, not really." which definitely implies that Professor Oak has had the title of Champion in the past.
Hopefully, we'll face against Professor Oak in a future Pokemon game someday.
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The fighting dojo even says they used to be a gym until the title was taken from them, clearly implying that there should be more gyms, as in the anime, probably reduced for the memory constraints for the original and then not increased later
“8 gym leaders, the elite 4, and a champion.”
Alolan Trainers: Whatsa Gym Leader?
Galar Trainers: Whatsa Elite 4?
Not all Alolan trainers though, since Kukui and Molayne know what a gym leader is. Kukui even challenged the Kanto league and considering Molayne and Kukui did the island challenge together, its safe to assume Molayne at least travelled to Kanto with Kukui.
th-cam.com/video/7HRDejZnGrQ/w-d-xo.html
I always thought of each elite 4 was a champion at some point. With no eight gym badges the trainers came less and less. This needing a new champion became vacant. At any rate the theory comes from koga becoming an elite 4. Even how lance reclaimed his role again in johto.
I'm pretty sure Lance was already the champion then Blue dethroned him taking his place as the champion. That then made Lance the 4th member and would've kicked out an unknown 1st member before Lorelei, maybe Will from gen 2.
I was also thinking that who was the champion before blue and red.
Now i know
th-cam.com/video/7HRDejZnGrQ/w-d-xo.html
It’s said that before blue became the champion in the Kanto region there would be multiple champions and all you had to do to become one was beat the elite four but after that professor Oak used his authority to make it so you had to defend your title. It says this in at least let’s go but I’m not sure about the others.
10:25 we already know oak controls team rocket GRAMPS lol
Oh my god I was going to say that Oak was the previous champion as a meme *but that's your actual theory*
Actually true in the manga. Oak won the indigo league when he was younger and a master of Normal type Pokémon. Super hilarious because he actively beat Agatha in that tournament with Normal type moves.
Lol legit!
Fugi? Maybe
@@MagusAgrippa8 Scrappy, Foresight, or Odor Sleuth?
Or manga made-up powers like "Aim for the Horn"?
Runningon Cylinders Scrappy didn’t exist yet. It could have been Foresight, since I think Kangaskhan (one of the Pokémon he used) might be able to learn that. Then again, you do see a part in the manga where Oak’s grandson uses Slash with his Scyther to defeat a Ghost type. If I’m not wrong, back in the early manga type immunities weren’t always perfect, since a powerful or precise attack could rip through them. Red’s Pikachu takes out at least one Ground type with Thunderbolt, for one.
I'm so early that the title says Thoery
Never been so early
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Alviss Alfred get lost you damn bot, stop self advertising.
The Champion is just a puppet in power used by Oak to combat Giovanni and Team Rocket.
Blue defeated the previous champion. And that champion just wasn't named for whatever reason.
But doesn’t Lance say “hey, you’d be the champion now that you’ve defeated me, Player, but someone got to me first, so you have to beat them.”
th-cam.com/video/7HRDejZnGrQ/w-d-xo.html
@@MagusAgrippa8 yes he does, implying that beating the elite 4 is what makes someone the champion.
Wait what, ur having an ad for a pokemon game in a pokemon video? ... Couldn't imagine anything better fitting.
While I can see Oak being previwsly a Champion, at least in Lets Go P/E Trace says before the champion battle :" From now on, the Champion will be part of the Pokémon League and battle all kinds of Trainers!", so he didn't fought a champion, having to beat the previows champion to become one was just stableshed (at least in Kanto).
Very interesting theory 🧐 I always knew Oak was the first Champion, but never even considered that he might have been the Champion directly before Blue. Gives me a whole new perspective of the Indigo League.
I honestly wished he ended with "But REMEMBER this is just a Theroy, a Pokémon Theroy aaaannd cut"
Every time I look at the thumbnail, my head just goes:
Blue: “Jotaro!”
Red: “Dio!”
I think this is hinted at in a future game when both red and blue show up, they talk to you and your rival
THAT SPONSOR JUST REMINDED ME OF HOW MUCH I GOT SHAFTED ON THE LEGENDARY SCOUTS
In Kanto I'm pretty sure Oak tells you that everyone who beat the elite four was regarded as a champion and that when Blue beat them was when they decided to have one champion figure. It's still fun to think it's Oak though.
No Erika was thought to be in team rocket but she was a double agent in a old daft of the manga.
Thank you so much for all videos you made. You are one of my absolutely best youtubers ever. :)
Jsi borec. Mám moc rád tvoji tvorbu.
Oak battled Blue (manga) to confront her about her stealing and to officially give her her dex and starter.
This is a topic I've thought about a lot, and I think there are a few other things to point out:
1) In Professor Oak's lab, if you check his computer you find an email from the Pokemon League inviting all challengers, but ending with a PS asking Oak to visit them. This could indicate that he is the current champion, and they want him to return to defend his title if need be.
2) While Giovanni not being present would obviously prevent trainers from collecting all 8 badges, it's also worth noting the the Cinnabar gym is locked as well, with the key being in the basement of the burned out Pokemon mansion. I don't think this really connects to who the champion is, just another reason there haven't been many challengers.
3) Finally, despite two gyms having limited access, there are still other trainers who must have acquired all 8 badges, as there are several trainers present on Victory Road. We can rule out them getting other, unknown badges, as the guards on the route leading to Victory Road check for specific badges. We don't really have a time frame for how long the final two gyms had been locked up, but it's possible that these trainers are the reason the League is requesting Oak to visit, as it's only a matter of time before someone defeats the Elite Four. If we go full conspiracy theory, this might even be why Blaine locked his gym up, to buy time for the League to convince the absent champion to return to his post.
Makes alpt of sense when pairing with your lance theory too. Lance was just put there by oak after red passed thru, didnt actually earn position as champion.
Maybe Kukui was the champion because he took the kanto challenge and faced Lance but never confirmed if he beat him or not. Maybe he did and was the opponent that took Oak out of hit title but left back to alola to be a professor
In pokemon hgss dj mary walkes in the hall of fame with professor oak for an interview soooo
She doesn’t actually walk in though, she stops in the Champion room
Darn it Toby! Your vids are like Pringles my dude, once you watch you cant stop!
Commenting before finishing the video, so you may address this.
There was no champion for the Indigo league (Indigo being the Kanto and Johto region as they share a league) Blue/ Trace became the first person to defeat the elite 4 in their respective universes. becoming the first champion until Red/ Chase defeated them, then Lance took over once Red left the post, and then Ethan/Kris/Lyra became champion.
It could have been a team rocket member that was forced to step down after clearing silph co, or maybe giovanni had so much power he was the champion as well as the 8th leader so getting rid of him was from 2 positions rather than just one
Ah yes my favorite thoery.
I want a game where you play as a young oak or agitha. Sort of a prequel
I feel like it was more that the system used to be the person who beats the Elite Four is the Champion and that it is usually rare that this ever happens especially by two people in the space of the same day. Red and Blue were the first two Champions to beat the Elite Four on the same day, so they decided to have them face each other to declare one True Champion. This battle was watched by many in the region and so the Pokemon League decided to adopt this practice across other Leagues.
It's explained that there is no set champion in kanto until the let's go games where your player character becomes the set champion.
I was the champion this whole time.
th-cam.com/video/7HRDejZnGrQ/w-d-xo.html
What if lance was a champion and there was a anoder elite four member.
Idk of you guys are familiar with Pedro Araujo's animated bits on YT, but his take on the Kanto league seems very fitting to me.
If Oak was to drop his title as champion to be a full time professor, i wonder if the league would reshuffle to get a champion or if the title of champion would simply be whom ever could top the elite 4. I'm sure both gym leaders and elite 4 members can compete for higher positions, but if there is no champion there'd be no champion to challenge, therefore would either be given to the top elite 4 (and an elite 4 spot is free) or theres simply no champion until one climbs the elite 4.
I'm also curious if Lance is the champion in gsc from rebattling Red and succeeding, hence why Red chose to leave to train. hmm
4:24 Yep pretty much. Sabrina, Lt. Surge, and Koga are essentially Team Rocket admins. Blaine was one as well, but he left after creating Mewtwo (using part of his own body, giving him a bond to Mewtwo). The way gym badges work though are pretty different. Gym leaders are powerful trainers and responsible for their towns, but it's only in the GSC championship that the Pokemon Association makes it so that having all eight gym badges gets you into the Championship, skipping the preliminaries. Gaining a badge marks you as a strong trainer with the approval of that gym leader. There's also the gym badge amplifier. And it's unclear whether it requires original badges held by Gym Leaders that they can give out or if there are multiple copies of each badge, but if you gather all eight and stick them in the amplifier (amplifying the energy that gives you stat boosts in game) you can either create a fucked up legendary bird fusion or summon Lugia. The Adventures manga is fucking insane and I love it.
That in the manga not canon to the games
Also in GSC, your rival is the champion.
Ooh, I really like this! Perhaps your best theory yet. 👍
I think it might've been oak. Since oak was at the stadium as soon as you beat blue, as soon as he lost, he went to get a reporter to congratulate blue. As he was gone, blue lost his title. That is why oak was so dissapointed.
BRUHHHH, I WROTE THIS COMMENT BEFORE WATCHING THIS VIDEO.
4:38 also something you should know is that in the pokespe manga the gym badges weren’t connected to the pokemon league until the gold silver and crystal arc where they became a form of fast pass to the finals if you managed to collect all 8.
With Pokémon Scarlet and Violet introducing champion Rank trainers as a concept, and working at the league is a job post of a champion level trainer, theoretically the champion can rotate depending on whomever is taking on the job at the moment.
I think that also goes hand in hand with Pokémon the anime as well, as they are all “champion” rank trainers, by way of league champion (like galar league/Alain) or by traditional champion postings (elite four champions)
Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee introduced an entirely new concept for the Kanto Pokémon League. In those games, Professor Oak states that the Champion was never actually an official part of the League, and once someone managed to beat the Elite Four, they were automatically considered "a Champion," and they could go on their way without defending their title. In Let's Go, however, Oak says that they just made a new rule that states that the Champion is now an official part of the League, and if you want to become Champion, you now have to defeat both the Elite Four and the current reigning Champion; meaning you have to beat Trace now since he became Champion before you.
What if after being the champ for a while oak wanted to explore like he did when he was younger researching the mthical pokemon like mew and celebi (he was in move 4) and decided to go to sinnoh a region of mythical pokemon and lore and there he met rowan and thats when he studied under him for a few years to then return to kanto to start his lab and own studies of his home region since sinnoh already has rowan as a renowned professor and oak wanted to make a name for him self. ( this is my own theory might make somthing of this )
You’re the only TH-camr I know that made Pokémon Masters attractive. So, yeah, keep it up
Toby: “That’s what lies between you and becoming the ultimate Pokémon trainer in any given region! Except for Kanto for some reason.”
Alola: Are we a joke to you?
What lies between Alola and being champ is cutscenes and a flag hunt.
FOR FIFTY HOURS STRAIGHT.
I think bird keeper Tony should play the ROM hack pokemon rocket edition. It has a lot of fan speculation that is really interesting.
I always believed the league was seasonal. There's a message on Oaks computer about the league "now accepting challengers". I believe each season starts with no champ, and whoever holds the title at the end is that seasons champ. Oak won at one time, or maybe multiple times, but hasn't challenged in years or maybe decades. The elite 4 are also seasonal, which is why they change up between g1 and g2.
The idea of this being seasonal makes more sense than the elite 4 and all the gym leaders just standing around waiting for challengers all the time, too. The fighting dojo was, at one point, a legit gym, but one member says the psychic gym kicked their butts and took their spot, so it seems gyms, like E4 members, would compete, by invitation, to hold a slot each year. (With E4 possibly being invited from previous champs or runners up.)
Lance doesn't go in the the E4 in g2 because he wants to challenge them to become the champion.
I feel like there was originally only one league, but after g2 it just wouldn't work, which is why kanto and johto share a league. (Making this sharing retroactive, and just not mentioned in g1.)
BirdKeeperToby was the original champion of Kanto!!! He just took a sick day when Red and Blue showed up so Blue went all “I’m the champion now!”
I never realised how corrupt and weird the kanto league was until now
this is really interesting and a good thing to think about
Correction, the only league Oak has taken part of in the manga WAS the first one, the one he'd won in.
There was no champion before then. Direct quote from Lance after beating him in Red and Blue
"I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, ! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is… ! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!" Oak could have been the champion at one point but if he did, he stepped down a long time ago. You can't exactly take on challengers with a Squirtle, Charmander, and Bulbasaur. The league isn't as bad as it seems on first glance. Blue seemingly got 8 badges without beating Giovanni. There are two explanations for this: there are more than 8 official gyms in Kanto or the more interesting option, the region you got a badge from doesn't matter. This still works within the idea that challengers have been becoming more sparse. Not everybody can afford to take expensive trips to another region. Even a trip to Johto would be difficult considering the train line in Saffron City wasn't built yet. My theory is that Blue made up for the missing badge during his time aboard the SS Anne. (Yes, this means that Red's journey lasted more than a year.) We know that Blue learned French in Kalos at one point. Lo and behold, one of his greetings in RB is bonjour. I admit it's weak, but the connection is there.
This is possible, and confirmation would come from that sign check in Gio's gym. I can't remember if it said that Blue had won his badge or not. And then there's the very specific badge check guards on the way to victory road...
There wasn't a champion before Blue. I'd assume the previous champion stepped down kinda like Red did. Also, the Kanto games take place canonically before any of the other regions (besides maybe Hoenn), which means they've had more time to get things together. In the RSE manga it's even stated that Hoenn's Elite 4 was just recently formed and Steven is simply the most recent Pokemon League (Tournament) Champion.
Also, all the trainers in Victory Road are qualified to challenge the Pokemon League, which means they've all gotten eight badges and it's entirely possible that much like Unova (and the anime) there's more than just eight gyms in Kanto.
Like a lot of Pokemon theories I don't think a whole lot of time or effort was put into this theory.
We all know that Lance operated as the “interim champion”
An interesting theory. To add on to it: It's possible that Oak is getting too old for the lifestyle of a Trainer.
Throughout all the media that _I'VE_ seen, it's implied that being a Trainer involves some form of physical prowess on the part of the Trainer as well as the Pokemon. The implication I get is that it's not like Little Mac's coach or Rocky's coach, where they kinda sit on the sidelines, but rather that the Trainer needs to be as active as their Pokemon in order to keep up. And that makes sense. What good is the Trainer if the Pokemon is making its own decisions before the Trainer has a chance to issue orders?
So with that in mind, it's possible that Oak, alongside being more into research and science nowadays, isn't in any physical or even mental condition to live that lifestyle of walking around, fighting others, honing your skills alongside your great beasts that fit in tiny fancy baseballs. Perhaps, because of his physical limitations and age catching up to him, he decided that it was time to hang up the old Badge Case and take up a lab coat.
I think Oak simply retired undefeated.
Well, i did mention on the video about Lance being the Champion how it could have actually worked. The Champion of the Indigo League was Lance and was beaten by your rival moments before you arrive. It is explained in the Manga that when a someone becomes the New Champion, the Elite Four changes, the Former Champion become an Elite Four and an Elite Four becomes a Gym Leader. So my theory was that your Rival beat the Champion and they kicked out someone from the Elite Four before you arrived changing Lance from Champion to Elite Four. To prove this there are 2 things, Lance's quote saying "You are now the Champion, or that's what i would have said", this might mean that he was the one that was about to pass the title of Champion. The second is the Cape, as i mentioned in the other video, Champions do wear Capes, in fact they are the only ones that wear Capes of some sort, in the case of Cynthia and Diantha, they wear some sort of Long Coat on the back or an open Dress from the waist down, even Iris follows that rule. As for the male champions, Lance has a Cape, Steven passes his Cape to Wallace in the Manga (also wallace wears a cape in Emerald, the game where he is the Champion) and Leon has a Cape and even Mustard has a cape in his Rare League card, the only exception should be Alder but he has some sort of cape as well, a Poncho which is also some sort of Cape and can be open on the front looking more like a Cape.
So it seems that wearing a Cape is a symbol of the Champion.
Love this one
Well in let's go Pikachu and eevee Lance also says to the player as a joke that the last challenge he has to face its proffesor oak so maybe oak its really the Kanto champion
Lance was the champion and when he got beat he kicked out one of the elite four so he would still have a job
Oh this is a nice theory man! Makes good sense and I never considered it, although I always thought it was just gen 1 being weird, or that nobody beat it in years, hence why Blue is the first champion in forever. But despite Oak working on the dex, like you said it still aint good. xD
Do you ever think that looker and professor oak are related? I mean after all they are both time travelers.
It's most likely was the start of a new Era in real life and the games. They're not just the first games in the timeline but we see Alola starting their own league. It's likely many regions are starting to create leagues. If not maybe Kanto is following in another region's foot steps.
I put this in a reply thread.
You forgot about the beginning of the game oak gets an email from the league
You forgot the fact that Sammy always loved to study pokemon ever since he was a kid, so it's obvious why he would be absent from the champion room most of the time. (For those who skipped the third movie, Professor Oak's name is Sammy.)
You spelled Theory wrong in the title btw, great video though
Its possible that Oak had been the champion at some point but, based on in-game dialogue; Lance was the champion before Blue beat him. I think it is more likely that either a previous champion (or elite 4 member) had retired (Oak could have certainly been this person). Generally, the vacancy would have been filled by extending an offer to the region's strongest gym leader to join the elite four. (As would be evidenced by Koga having joined the elite 4 between rby and gsc.) Since this gym leader was Giovanni who was either known as the leader of Team Rocket or, was just considered to be missing, then the Elite 4 had not found Blaine as being worthy of joining the Elite 4 at the time. (Blaine's ace was still 6 levels below Lorelei's weakest in red/blue; but he would have been more reasonable in yellow). So, Blue coming through and wrecking the Elite 4 made their job easier because he could just be crowned champion and demote Lance to the Elite 4.
One other possibility could be that the reason Giovanni's gym is closed is actually only partially due to him operating Team Rocket. If he was not known to be the leader of the organization; then it is possible that he had actually been accepted as a member of the Elite 4. But, when outed as the leader of the organization; he was forced to resign from the Elite 4 and he was retreating to his gym for his last stand against the police when you burst in an defeated him again.
If you consider the possibility that your rival defeated the Elite 4 early enough; then you could even consider the possibility that Giovanni was in the Elite 4 when Blue came through and wrecked them. But, as the lowest member on the totem pole; he had gotten sent back to his gym after Blue took over as champion. The only issue with this would be that if the Elite 4 operated like this; then technically when you defeat Blue, then he should be demoted to Elite 4 and Lorelei would be kicked out. But, we never really see what happens there because the games don't work that way.
Just one cent about Kanto and Johto; the latter was designed to be connected to the former by some degree at the very least because gen 2 was designed to be more of a sequel than its own standalone game, it was only after they realised it would be silly to stop at gen 2 when they decided to make entirely new continents.
I think the issue Kanto has with champion stuff was that it was the first time Game Freak were building these kinds of things and when they remake the Kanto games they tend to be a bit TOO FAITHFUL towards the way the first gen was built to avoid looking like they might be alienating the fans of the original; hence, no world-building expansion towards Champions and stuff
I can't find this anywhere in dialogue from the game or anything but growing up with Yellow, I was always under the impression that Lance was the Champion. Could just be from Gold/Silver but I thought he said this in one of the original Kanto games. I couldn't find that stated anywhere though. My thought process was Lance was the Champion. Lorelei, Bruno and Agatha were part of the Elite 4. So I started to think that there was an Elite 4 member that was removed because Blue became champion. So the lowest member was removed before we got there. Idk.
Before Blue and Trace , Champion was only recorded title and never made the highest title within pokemon league,
which means every trainers who defeat E4 only recorded as champion and leave to their next journey back then
erica used to be a Rocket as well making boi weapons out of here spore attacks but she like blane had a change of heart
Another point that could support this theory is that you fight Professor Kukui at the end of Sun and Moon. Sun and Moon has plenty of references and ties to the Kanto region including the regional variants, Samson Oak, the replica Kantonian gym thats modelled after the one in Vermillion City etc. Kukui even has the third starter that was left behind just like Oak has in the cut data. Interestingly in Ultra Sun and Moon your rival replaces Kukui as champion as well, its a different timeline but the parallel still stands.
Forgot to exclude Alola for the badges!!
Alola should be excluded for a lot of reasons...
Did you (the viewers) know that the manga came closest to "the world we[they] wanted to build"? No? Well then go and read! You can only learn more about the world of pokemon!
my question is if lance was champion before blue who was the other elite 4 member
It all depends on the timeline. But I think since in rby, the rival was the first champion, there was none before him. Then Red became the champion we know today before resigning in Sun and Moon. LGPE tackled it with them leaving for alola after a few years.
I always thought in the first games that lance was the champion, but when he gets beat by blue, he lost the title and blue became the champion, so you had to face him, but What got me is it’s the elite 4, not the elite 5 lol, I guess the elite 4 and the champion don’t sound as cool lol. I always wonder if blue beat you then why am I fighting you and not him? Lol
they really need to release an open world pokemon
i like to think they didn't have a champion battle before blue but because blue and red challenged the elite four at such similar times they let blue at least have a chance to defend his title
Pretty sure Lance said you'd be champion if we arrived earlier because he was the title holder. So I think the question is more of
If lance was dethroned and made into an e4 member who was the e4 member that was booted off to make room for lance?
I actually wondered if Blue did become the Champion, since it seems that in the games before he can registered in the hall of fame Red comes along and knocks him off his perch.
I guess it’s possible in the remakes since Red/you face him again and he has a much stronger team the second time you face him. Although it would be amusing if both times you face Blue he is prevented from entering the hall of fame. Poetic justice for all of the insults he threw at you when your adventure began.
I feel like Lance despite being apart of the elite four, is technically the champion in those games since he is the highest position of the elite four. Before that, it would make sense that oak had been champion before the elite four was made. But oak probably stepped down as champion and as they had no one else to become champion, they just had the elite four. In johto, red probably stepped down to do more training and Lance decided to step up as champion and a new elite four was made.
Just because I think it's funny I like to headcanon that not only is he champion. But the champion that was forced out of retirement the most.
Plot Twist :
Pokémon Trainer Red left home to find his dad, who is missing, who happens to be the Kanto's Region Champion... Who is also missing.
But honestly speaking, the Region Champion probably died in that war
Lt Surge spoke of. Idk
Additional part to the theory as to why Johto and Kanto may share the league. Whilst the two are obviously close, which makes it easier for them to share a league, having a previous unreliable Gym Leader like Giovanni made it impossible to have a functioning league, and as we know from Galar, the league is an important source of income through entertainment. I'd like to imagine that Blue didn't take the mantle the second Giovanni left, it would probably have taken some time to decide that. Having a league where challengers only have to collect 8 badges, with the choice between 15 gym across two regions (16 when Blue would finally takeover the final gym), means more people can compete, and more people within the league can profit.
I was thinking of this
In all the other regions, the Champions reappear throughout the games to help stop the baddies in their tracks. Oak only reappears to yell at you for trying to ride your bike indoors. Red the true villain confirmed? 🤔
Also, Toby, I HIGHLY recommend reading Pokémon Adventures, it's a FANTASTIC series and I think you could glean a good deal of interesting theories from it!
I like this theory Blaine was only evil for a little bit in pokemon special
I think all professors where champions at one pointm
My theory: Kanto and Johto were at WAR a short while ago. Most people in leadership rolls in Kanto were either transplants from Johto( Lt. Surge, Bill, The leader of the Pokemon Fan Club, et cetra), crime bosses(Giovanni, Blaine, et Cetra), or locals who assisted the Johtonians in the fight(Oak, Agatha, Fuji, Blue and Red's family et cetra). Kanto isn't allowed to have a champion due to losing the war.
I hate all these Pokemon Masters ads...
Because its a mobile game? No
Because its everywhere? No
Why?
Because its not available in my country, and when my friend contacted support, they said they have no plans for releasing it to all countries, so its like
"hey, look at this shiny thing that you can never play with..."
That aside, love the video Toby, maybe speak to them about actually making it worldwide if you have any contact with them.