35 years ago when we had 5 young children, and my husband had just been diagnosed with a serious disease resulting in a medical discharge from the military, we were struggling to make ends meet by working any job available AND we were paying a full tithing in order to get blessings. My husband and I and the two youngest who were not in school yet, were driving home from a doctor's appointment (at a military hospital 100 miles away) when the car broke down 50 miles from home. We managed to hitchhike home with our two preschoolers. We were new to the ward and did not yet have home teachers assigned, so I phoned the elder's quorum president, explained the situation, and asked for help getting the car towed home and assistance getting it fixed. He told me that he thought that we should be able to take care of this ourselves and he would not recommend help for us. I was stunned! From that day forward I never asked for help from the church again (but still paid a full tithing on gross income). I was a TBM until 2 years ago.
My wife and I have struggled to cover all our bills since we bought our first home a year ago. Paying tithing had become something that made me feel physically sick watching that much money going out each month. My second biggest expense each month was tithing. I had stopped contributing to my company's 401(k), cut grocery costs, cut any extra anything out of our daily, and it still wasn't enough. This video has been an answer to prayers for my wife and I. In the past month, we have slowly seen money begin to accrue back and can finally feel like we can start paying our debt down and feel better moving forward. Thank you to Aaron and the Mormonish Podcast for your insight and for helping us to see a new way of thinking.
As a former branch president I knew people who paid tithing on what they lived on even though they were borrowing money off their assets to do so. I had a Stake President who when drawn to the attention that people weren't paying tithing because they weren't earning a living emphasized they don't live on nothing and claimed they should be paying tithing on what they lived on for their most basic needs. I was more along the lines of letting people decide for themselves taking into account that there is a minimum cost of living, below which you starve and cannot pay your bills. The church does not pay your tithing back when you are running at a loss.
Excellent and insightful discussion. So much to think on. Every member should watch. Aaron did a great job of outlining and supporting so many great points.
Excellent and thought provoking presentation. Pharisaical tendencies is the perfect term for a lot of the nonsense in my neighborhood among “faithful Mormons.” At least twice a week I’m left shaking my head both deeply saddened and disgusted that they have so greatly missed the point. The church needs more nuanced, compassionate, and pragmatic members like Aaron.
It's evil not to define the payment of tithing - the smart people work it out but those 'ultra faithful members' get slaughtered - and the brethren know it.
The First Presidency actually views members with contempt and disdain. Russell Nelson manipulates members in Cody,Wyoming and Las Vegas, Nevada to pressure local government into allowing eyesore temples in residential neighborhoods. Money + ego = prophet.
I lost my job and we were trying to survive knowing we didn't have the money to meet our financial obligations. The Bishop said to pay tithing first and the Lord will bless us for showing faith. I believed this would work due to all the stories I heard, so we paid tithing first and when nothing miraculous happened we went back into the bishops office for church assistance. Talk about stress when you know your household expenses are $6k per month and you only have $4k per month coming in each month and your being told to pay $600 per month in tithing. Now you have to pray to God that the church is willing to provide financial assistance.
When I was a missionary in Hungary, American missionaries were teaching to pay on the gross. The prez had to send out a letter saying to pay on the surplus since taxes were taking 70+% and leaving people without enough to live.
Yes. One of the first things that helped me realize that the "tithing on gross" thing was absurd was when I read about some places that at one time or another had tax rates of up to 80% or even 90%...meaning that if anyone in such situation paid 10% on their gross income, they would have zero or close to zero left over. The idea that God demands a faith tax is itself absurd. Of course we know that God has never said anything about it. It's only humans pretending to speak for God who deliver the demand. It's a scammy protection racket.
Thank you so much, Aaron. I have elderly family members who have always worked at low paying jobs, in their rural area. Now in retirement, they are paying tithing on their meager social security checks, and sacrificing buying insulin in order to do so. They are faithful, and proud of being self-reliant, and would never ask the ward for help. I feel certain that none of the GAs are sacrificing buying necessary insulin in their old age. It would be wonderful if their bishop stepped in and told them that they do not need to pay tithing on their social security checks.
How amazing that this discussion could happen between people in and out of the church!! Amazing Aaron that you took this topic to podcasters not in the faith anymore, and amazing R&L for allowing him to present! I LOVE seeing people work together like this! There is hope for this world!!
It's interesting how today's version of tithing from earned wages has no biblical precedent yet it's frequently taught as an act of biblical obedience.
I decided long ago to donate my time rather than money. That way I know exactly what my donation does as I witness it real time. I declare myself a full tithe payer without hesitation.
@@hhsisters5508 In our church all monetary donations are both optional and anonymous to leadership. All individual accountability as a full tithe payer is solely between the parishioner and God. Donation of time rather than money is acceptable and in fact encouraged for those that are not financially able to donate.
The church gives lip service to supporting families, but do nothing to help young families. They should trust people to make these decisions for their families and not tie it to a temple recommend. If they want young couples to have children, they should stop making it harder for them financially. Easing up on the tithing and offering free or low cost child care would help young families so much.
I studied this out more deeply two years ago along with several of my close friends. We took a good 6 months to study out tithing, pray about it, looked at church history, what the church currently is doing and not doing with our funds, and contemplating the subject separately and together. This is what we found: The current handbook and scripture ( Bible) say to pay on your “surplus”. Look up the definition of surplus…… it means a you donate $ or goods AFTER ALL your families NEEDS are taken care of. The church’s leadership contradict themselves because they actually haven’t studied the subject fully, they just repeat what their Stake President and the 15 tell them to say. And the church itself is a corporation and they’re interested in obtaining more of your funds to keep that huge wealthy company rolling forth. Study, contemplate, and pray to understand what is tithing means to you. You have the right and ability to determine what that means to you.
Spot on! It’s a bizarre phenomenon that the Church ostensibly shifted away from the United Order to its current practice of tithing because the UO was too hard and members weren’t prepared to accept it yet. Well, math-defying gross tithing is actually a more difficult law than the UO, because the UO would at least leave one with their needs met. As for the leaders, I appreciate that generally it’s the affluent called into demanding positions because they have greater resources to take on those responsibilities. But it does become a problem with tithing, because they generally only know it from the angle of subordinating wants. Having needs go unmet is somewhat a foreign concept to them, and official discourse is severely lacking to remediate that understanding.
What an awesome discussion! I had a bishop tell my husband and me that we weren't paying enough and he was ready to take our temple recommends. (Bishop roulette is real) We showed him that he printed it wrong and he backed off, but he shouldn't have even looked at the amount we paid. I used to pay gross, then moved to net, and for the past two we have paid surplus. Tithing as the church now says it should be hurts the poor. The law of consecration would be easier for them to live since they have no surplus. Tithing is supposed to be a lesser law so why is it so much harder on the needy?
So exciting to get in early for a great discussion! We are a mixed faith family, my husband doesn’t pay 10% but he gives to the church while I choose to “tithe” to the community giving to local homeless shelters and food banks where I can literally see where my giving is going too instead of giving to a church and then washing my hands of doing good. People give to a church then rely on the church to do good and when they see someone in need will say “go to the church”🙃 personally I’ll never give another penny to any church.
I love that. It's so true, as members, we really do wash our hands of doing good for people. I knew I had tyke and thought, but I didn't quite have a great way to articulate it. As I've learned more I have realized how arrogant we are thinking that getting dressed up and go to the temple is a sacrifice to humanity. It's not. We feel good about ourselves for helping dead people, something apparently God can't figure out on his own. He needs us mormons to do his handiwork. All the while, the living are fending for themselves.
Good for you! Instead of going to church I volunteer in a homeless kitchen. I have gotten more out of that then I ever did church. But more importantly, you get to actually see what is going on in your community. You make lasting friendships, it's absolutely beautiful!
@@greg-op2jh very true!! Image how much different this world would be if instead of the church sucking millions out of communities each year it went to foundations and shelter that did the hard work. I know some people feel like they need religion and do what’s best for you but the giving of money has to stop. Then see how many “Pastors” are “called” when they won’t get Joel Olsteen rich 👀
I don't need years of experience in finance, accounting, and ward clerk callings to know that the amount of tithing everyone should pay is $0. Virtually all of the money is sent to SLC to fill the coffers of the obscenely wealthy corporation, which is unaccountable to church members, and which actively seeks to deceive said members. It would perhaps be different if the money went towards the local ward for activities and charitable work but it doesn't.
This policy of "pay your tithing and the church will support your needs" ensures the GAs get paid and the local members support those in need, because that assistance comes from fast offering from the members of that ward.
Szervusztok! Love hearing from and reading comments by former Hungarian Missionaries! I wonder how many of us served together. I was there in 2006-07 and honestly don’t remember how I taught tithing. But I know people were struggling and the church in general asked so much. Going to the temple was a once or maybe twice in a lifetime event for most, because of the cost of travel, housing, etc while making the equivalent of a dollar or two an hour at work was just a functional lifelong limitation. I remember teaching that temple attendance was good but ultimately optional and more important was making your home a “temple”, which caused cognitive dissonance when I went back to BYU and was told we should be going “weekly”. I experienced similar dissonance when trying to think through the importance of temple marriage in Provo compared to having taught for 2 years that you should be civilly married first and add the temple covenant later when your situation allows. No shame whatsoever in choosing civil marriage before temple marriage if that is what makes sense for you, but I saw peers actively shame others for exactly that in Utah. The financial surplus for members was generally 0, yet tithes were absolutely preached as necessary. The cost of a bread roll during my two years went from about 6 forint to about 25 forint (0.03 USD to 0.12 USD at the time) and was what I used to demonstrate how much inflation we experienced in those 2 years alone. Pay didn’t go up, costs did. Tithing expectations stayed static as the financial environment changed. Even as Missionaries we were running out of money with our monthly “stipend” (which was our own money since we were paying to be there). As a mission secretary I tried to push for the mission to bump up our funds since we couldn’t afford more than noodles and sour cream most evenings. We couldn’t generally regularly afford a protein. I remember a particularly rough 2 weeks where I could only afford a roll or two a day and some bulk unflavored oatmeal with water because we ran out of funds for the month halfway through. After a lot of work I think I was able to get a small bump in the monthly stipend, well behind inflation though.
I attended tithing settlement with my young family one year. The bishop warned us that if we weren't honest about being a full tithe payer God would kill us like he did in the book of Acts.
From what I've observed over the years, it's actually only a few of the General Authorities who give up much of anything in financial terms when they become GAs. Probably most of them come out ahead in the deal. Just a few examples: Nelson became an apostle at the typical retirement age for his profession. Presumably, he has a pension stream that comes from that professional career, to which the generous GA compensation package ("stipend" plus expenses and so on) is simply added. Guys like Packer, Monson and Hinckley spent their entire lives working for church owned or controlled organizations. Becoming a GA (i.e. the bosses over such organizations) is simply the highest position that can be aspired to on such a career path. Many GAs only "retired" from their own business enterprises, which continued to be run by family members and partners, generating income streams or, in other cases, cashed out of their business to the tune of possibly millions, when becoming GAs. Someone like Ballard (who obviously had family connections to the Mormon elite) had his failed business bailed out and creditors paid off when the Church bought his fire-damaged Valley Music Hall and turned it into a church property...right when Ballard was called to be a GA. Richard Hinckley (Gordon's son) was involved in church service for most of his life, while apparently dabbling in various businesses (apparently without much financial success) and spent a lot of time seemingly acting as a personal assistant for his dad. He was rewarded with a GA spot before his dad died, served for a few years and then retired to "emeritus" status. It seems likely that he receives a form of pension from the Church pursuant to such retirement. I believe the leaks of information about GA compensation may be only the tip of the iceberg with regard to what they actually get in total.
Great episode. My father sold all of his silver bars to pay tithing for the year just to get a recommend. He believed in gross earnings. He had alot of silver all gone in one tithing payment.
You simply can't interpret Lynn G. Robbins' statement as being in any way in line with the surplus model. He's couching it as a choice between eating and paying tithing. Anyone who feels like they have to make that choice obviously has zero surplus.
I certainly don’t think Elder Robbins had surplus in mind, which leads me to believe that as a GA even he was uniformed as to the full implications of the 1970 FP Statement. Otherwise I would be very, very interested to hear how he syncs the two. Because faithful members will generally receive these faith/loyalty-heavy messages as authoritative, that segment was intended to show that the only way they hold truth is if surplus/net methods are on the table as acceptable options.
Good luck Brother Brewster. I know that bishops are generally trained to take whatever tithe someone will pay. If they declare it a "full tithe", the bishop checks the box.
I wish I would have heard this presentation 40+ years ago... I paid tithing on gross income despite also paying student loan payments that were equal to (and sometimes exceeded) my rent/house payments. During those years until I stopped paying tithing 7 years ago, I saved nothing for retirement. I think now how much less financial stress we would have had if we calculated our tithing differently. The thing is, I never knew there was an option to pay anything other that tithing based on gross income. I wish this could be presented to all active church members...
I heard to fit the definition of "first fruits" it had to be gross. But it is still an Old Covenant practice, not a New Covenant one. In the New Covenant, each person decides the amount they will give, according to 2nd Corinthians 9:7.
We stopped donating to the church and started donating to charities that are transparent and five to those we know need help. My tithes will go to help people, not for the church to build malls and invest in apple and Microsoft.
Her BYU bishop story was shocking. The church taught multiple generations how to lie (either about money and/or if they power up their own little factory) - that very fact alone should get people heading for the exit door -
"It's evil not to define the payment of tithing - the smart people work it out but those 'ultra faithful members' get slaughtered - and the brethren know it." So True.
In the Book of Mormon, it says that we may "...partake of his salvation...without money and without price." (2 Nephi 26:23-25) Does this not debunk tithing? If not why not?
You bring up an interesting point. Contrast that teaching with the JS quote that a religion that doesn’t require the sacrifice of all things cannot produce the faith necessary for salvation. This is one of those cases of contradictory messages that can only be true if an individual uses discernment to moderate between both at a healthy tension. Sadly, human nature gravitates toward pharisaical hedging, and we see the “without money and without price” angle discarded.
Do emeritus General Authorities continue to enjoy their “modest living allowances” until they die? Do the wives get survivor benefits? Why does The First Presidency consider “financial transparency” a toxic waste dump to be avoided at all costs? 🥴
@@whitesalamander just my opinion, but I think authoritarian control is a generational value that will diminish as current senior leaders pass on. If you want to view it through a gospel lens, call it a manifestation of the natural man. Transparency is crucial to a healthy organization and to maintaining trust. In this presentation alone we touched on how GA comp, Church holdings, and use of funds are necessary inputs for a member’s informed calculation of tithing. Until Church leadership values transparency members will just have to do their best with the info they have.
Give directly to the needy and turn in the receipts for your tithing. The church's effective charity rate is 14%. Most charities would be investigated as this is considered criminally low. I would love to hear the bishops reaction to this ploy.
Born and raised in SoCal…there was a church called The Crystal Cathedral and the church was beautiful. Low and behold, the church was audited for misuse of funds…It was the minister’s son who was taking money out of the tithing fund…and at the end of every service there would be a well-known sports caster “selling a beautiful gold medallion” for just $50. Sooo cheesy! And definitely sent the wrong message for teaching God and Jesus’ message. So, please pay your tithing, and go ahead and buy that medallion!
The Rev. Robert Schuller was a well known evangelist in Orange County. Rev. Schuller built a church called The Crystal Cathedral and at the end of every televised service, Ed Arnold, a sportscaster from LA did a tv promotion for a “gold medallion” of some sort as a fund raiser for the church. Sooo sleezy. And all along Rev. Schuller’s son was dipping his had in tithing money. I believe the IRS charged the church for fraud. Bye, bye Crystal Cathedral. Please Google. Even the Rev. was a little too sleazy for my liking.
Elder Bednar explicitly said it doesn’t, but that the members need the blessings of being full tithe payers. That statement ceases to be problematic when the members learn that their token widow’s mite is absolutely acceptable before God.
Time is money, out in the world. Meaning our jobs. Yet the church isn't paying tithing to us for all the work we give out for free. The time spent in callings. The gas we spend to go to church and activities. The extra money we spend in our callings. The gas for visiting teachers and home teachers. The time and money spent making meals for others. Many ways we spend money for the church besides tithing. Then money spent for missionary work. Fast Sunday monies. Its an expensive church to belong to especially for the destitute.
Tithing is a trigger for me. As an active believing member of the church, I get tired of the tithing talks. I was a single dad who didn’t have two nickels to rub together. Tithing was used as a weapon. I was told the the doctrine and covenants taught if you’re not contributing you should be cast off. Asking for home teachers, the bishop told me when you pay tithing then you can have friends. Then when I was getting remarried in the temple, paying tithing, I was questioned by the ward clerk and financial clerk if I was really paying a full tithing. I was told to take a hloc out on my home to pay tithing. I didn’t. 20 years later and active and I’m not sure how I feel about tithing.
Great topic and guest, as always. At ~22 min Landon jokes that he likes the surplus method because 10% of zero is zero. Yet this seems to be the understanding of tithing for decades. Mormonism Live has a great episode tracking the history of this. Unfortunately leadership reguarly gives talks to shame people and contradict it - the whole 'pay 1st and if you can't afford food get it from the storehouse' line, which IMO is deeply unethical. Worse, because of bishop roulette, many low income people are excluded from family temple activities and ordinances. For example, a friend's mother is TBM, widowed early, and lives on very limited social security. She has no surplus - so according to this method she should still get a recommend. Nope - she has been denied one and cannot attend her own child's wedding this summer. Egregious. Temple recommends are the ultimate in coercive control. Until leadership clearly gives local leaders direction to be maximally flexible and compassionate, they will likely default to extracting the widows mite or maximum. And for what? To pad a $250B and growing capitalist investment and real estate corporation? I hope more members will indeed take a moral stand and personal interpretation - say like Nemo - and pay as much and to which charities as they see fit. Oh wait - sounds like how most of us NeverMos operate! And why do I care so much? Beyond all the members and exmembers and mixed families around us here in Utah who may struggle with this, we US taxpayers subsidize all tithing because religions have super special no-financial-transparency-for-them non-profit rules. And many members are told to turn to public benefits like Medicaid but still pay tithing. So indirectly its my money too.
First of all there is no doctrine the covers the frequency of tithing payments. The church asks only one a year so there is no reason why we should be able to pay once a year. Why give money to the church for them to invest it in there 100 billion fund when you could do it. The theory is that if you participated in a tithing investment fund a contributed on a regular basis then at some point the fund could cover all your tithing in perpetuity.
I notice that tithing money only flows in one direction: from member to the church. For example, if a member invests part of his remaining 90% in the stock market, then he again tithes to the church on that growth. Yet, the church does not reimburse the member when church donations grow in the stock market; the member provided the seed money to get that gain.
@@stevenparkin6486 Yes. The distinction between investment returns/interest earned by the Church from tithing funds versus the tithing amounts that the Church received from members...is the basis on which (with a huge dose of sophistry) the Church leaders have claimed that certain projects "were not paid for using tithing". They're hoping that members will just accept that and stop thinking. They don't want the members to realize that when they donate $5.000 to the Church, they are also donating/giving to the Church all of the interest/investment earning potential of that money. So the City Creek Center was developed using tithing, even if the leaders want the members to think that it wasn't.
Thought provoking, however, LDS Tithing in 1838, was based on 10% of the interest that would be earned on your net worth, not income. Supposedly Brigham Young changed the tithing definition to 10% of total income. So a question, Do the current Church Leaders pay tithing on their gross? Such as the value of their pensions, per diem and fees collected, free car(paid by the Church), free BYU educations for their family, free airplane rides and any other Church paid perks or other perks? I think they just "lie for God" and call everyone who listens to them, fools.
When the church makes the statement that tithing is for feeding the hungry and clothing the poor.. dose that apply to the local person in the ward… Abraham only payed tithing of 10% of the spoils of war.. his personal wealth was never tithed.. and he was more righteous than most… is that what God always intended for all of us too..
Consider this hypothetical example: Imagine Mitt Romney was POTUS. Should he pay tithing on the value of his White House residency? The WH chef, butler, and housekeepers? His travel and security? His catered meals? The value of VIP meetings with dignitaries? Federal protection of his extended family while he is POTUS? The value of federal protection over the rest of his life after his term ends as POTUS?
"The nature of the blessings will vary" - Nelson talk footnote quoted at ~1:52. Did they trademark that? Sounds like a disclaimer on a prescription medicine label. But at least the latter had to pass scientific rigorous research & proven efficacy before being released for public consumption. Confirmation bias at work, straight from the prophet. Yes its heads we win tails we win keep paying regardless.
I would just like to point out as I am on the snap program (EBT/food stamps) that if you use your EBT card to cash out and use money that is illegal and you get penalized by the government and you lose the privileges to get your benefits. So it's not a matter of opinion that's the law
Abraham gave after an amazing victory. Hint hint. Paul said, God loves a cheerful giver without pretending that there's a law of tithing that makes God happy with you. After leaving the lies of Mormonism, I set aside money and give to accountable charities that do a lot of good in the world. Because the LDS church struggles with accountability, I wouldn't give them a dime.
01:58:30 This all stems from Joseph’s early desire to make money without having to work. Example: His early years of treasure digging. People would pay him to find treasure on their property. He would never find the treasure and then he would blame them for not doing all the steps exactly correctly Or they just need to pay more and keep trying. The church does the same thing today. They promise blessings, and if you don’t get them, it’s because you’re either not doing it exactly right or it’s a test and you need to keep trying. When you think about it, the reward for paying is the highest rite in the church: attending the temple. The whole purpose for worthiness interviews, in my opinion, is to make sure members are paying money.
They don’t need to be paid because they all have their own money from previous income. Although there used to be an apartment for the prophet which isn’t used anymore
Great discussion. And the church/prosperity pastors use god-talk to say 'pay your tithe, money, seed to God' - or else. NO! Not going to God! Going to the growing coffer$, the lifestyles of the rich & famous, etc....
There's no way the "church" wouldn't have known how tithing hurts low income people so much more than upper income payers. L.D.S. Inc. will take the widow's mite and laugh all the way to the bank.
Haha! You would be wrong! Watch the episode. We show a pay stub for Elder Eyring. All the Q15 receive paychecks, homes, cars, etc. The pay stubs were leaked years ago. Just another lie the church allows to linger without clarifying.
They are able to get away with this claim simply by not calling it a salary. It’s a “living stipend.” Well, no one who’s a true believer would question the necessity of that, right? After all, they devote all their time to building the kingdom, and they must live. But then you learn more and more…do they actually *need* to be chauffeured around by their own full-time driver in their church-provided cars? Because they are… Do they need to make their visits around the world in PRIVATE JETS? Because they do… Do mission presidents need a living stipend and fancy house? Yes, maybe. But do they also need to be reimbursed for the cost of a gardener and full-time cook and their kids’ private school tuition and music lessons and the cost of BIRTHDAY GIFTS? Because they are…
@@jpnwtn business men and other high ranking people use private jet so can’t the church. The prophet is a world renound heart surgeon, do you really think he needs to be paid. The others have their own money too. That so called chauffeur is a body guard. And for the rest of it you couldn’t be more wrong
@@paulamortensen36 If you are fine paying tithing so that it can be used on shopping malls and private jets and to sit in a hedge fund and grow interest, good for you, since that’s what’s happening. Many of us are not comfortable with that 🤷♀️ My source for believing that mission presidents DO get paid a generous stipend, that includes reimbursement for things like a gardener to a gift, is the mission president handbook leak in 2012. What is your source that proves it is not true?
My Father is a humble LDS Church members and always pay tithing and since i was born, we don't have our own house, we don't have a car or motorcycle, we are a poor family, we have to stay in our relative house who are not LDS. My opinion, if you still can live in comfort then I can say that you don't pay your tithing. And about the LDS Church and Tithing, I felt that we have to pay money to live in the Highest Heaven/Celestial.
If only the church would actually administer to the wants of impoverished saints as commanded to newel k Whitney..."wo unto him that sayeth, all is well in zion, yeah zion prospereth"
Giving your money to the impoverished means you don’t still own it..putting it in temples means you still own it it is now just in the form of real estate!
In the bible it sais to pay a 10th and it is helping with the poor and needy all around the world look at the church world report podcast we gave billions to world desasters etc i pay my thithing and are glad and blessed by doing so
If you look in depth at "Tithing" in the Bible, it is almost nothing like what the churches definition is and what the church does with the money. Again, what is done with the money is very different biblically than what the church does. The fact of the matter is the church in no case whatsoever needs one penny of donations from any members of the church to survive and thrive. They are completely self sustaining. Yet they certainly will ask for fast offerings and tithing and missionary donations and perpetual fund donations and youth group activity, donations, and welfare donations . Et al. It's disgusting!
Look at the SEC law suit and how the church was sued for 5 MILLION DOLLARS because it hid 43 BILLION DOLLARS. That's not giving charity. That's hiding money from the members.
I’m retired and paying the Church close to nothing. No guilt at all. I support two non-LDS doctors on a medical mission. Honestly I’m done giving money to a multi billion corporation.
Landin would make a good bishop ) or pastor 2:05:59 come as you are Come join Coffee & Tea hour right before the meeting get to know the people at your church Shower people with love give an inspiring Bible message I love you see you next week . People are hungry for “more” They want to be spiritually fed when they come to church . I was raised Mormon ) now a born again Christain it’s been quite a journey . I’m studying christanity in depth and my view points have changed with all the study I’m doing I really think the Jewish faith is the original faith of God He created the universe in the Hebrew language . I have in my heart turned to the God of Israel . He is my rock and refuge , and my salvation . I love this podcast I would love to be able to call in and talk with you and landin. I look forward to all the new shows They are so fun , you guys ROCK. I’m so grateful for the work you do 🤎
Since when does using logic make for a justifiable nuance of the commandments? Everyone in the world knows coffee & tea are beneficial, yet those will keep you out of the temple. I love this discussion and wish it were how tithing was taught by church leaders, but it’s not. If this is how you choose to see tithing, you’re making up your own version of Mormonism and rolling the bishop roulette dice. It’s ok to realize the church is bullsh*t.
Just simply ask yourselves! Are we in the New Testament? 🙄If we are, then why do we allow false prophets to keep defiling the Holy name of Christ by ignorantly blaspheming Him in The Holy Ghost? 👉creating guilt, fear, corruption, confusion and all evil in the minds of Jesus' New Creation who are supposed to be living in the NEW? 1. Beginning👉On the CROSS❤ Jesus said, "It is Finished." (John19:30).🙏🏻 2. Ending👉 (After the Literal Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). ❤Jesus said, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end."👉 (Revelation 21:6).❤ Simply put: All that is OLD OLD OLD like: 👉 1. Old Covenants eg., (tithes and offerings🤑), ENDED. 👉 2. All Old Testament prophecies ENDED. 👉 3. The First Earth and the First Heaven which is the👉 First Creation. ENDED. How? 👉❤IN CHRIST ALONE!😍 Jesus' New Creation (New Jerusalem) is found only in the New Person, Born a New Creation❤IN CHRIST❤who is DWELLING For Ever with men in the Holy Ghost.🙏🏻 How and Why? Read Revelation 21 : 3--5. Nobody can comfort and wipe away our tears of trials and sufferings in this life than this: 👉That through FAITH we are ASSURED of Jesus' GRACE and LOVE for ALL who BELIEVE and TURN to Love our ONLY God and Father Jesus Christ with all our hearts. Remember!👉 There is absolutely NOTHING NEW under heaven👉 BUT that person NEWLY CREATED: by putting all his/her TRUST in Jesus ALONE and not in . Avoid any churchy foundational believes! For goodness sake they are ALL Cults. Jesus never built one church building/temple neither were his Apostles. If you already have a firm unwavering belief that Jesus is The Christ: that His Church is, has and had been FOUNDED only ONCE, then we do not need any more human brain to control and lie to us. 😍Imagine having everybody SAVED from the lies of men into the True Christ right here in this New Creation/New Earth life BELIEVING in ONE God.😍 Revelation 21:4 where it is written: ...; and there shall be no more death, .... Why NO MORE DEATH? Because everybody is a believing desciple of Christ. Last but not least beautiful sufferers please SET YOURSELVES FREE. I have never been HAPPIER since I have researched and studied the scriptures in the Lord's way having totally believed that no man is supposed to be my teacher but the Holy Ghost Alone. Read John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Other Scriptures to read please. Hebrews 8:11. Matthew 23:8. John 14:16. John 15:26 John 16:7. Isaiah 54:13. John 5:39,40. ❤❤❤❤❤
WOW...talk about swatting at gnats. The Lord has asked us to 10% of our increase...You will never go wrong paying your tithing on anything you DECIDE TO. The Lord will never say " I'm not going to bless you because you paid tithing on gross or net or bday money or money you found etc" ...some people pay do not pay tithing because their spouse won't allow them...however their hearts desire is they would if they could. The Lord will see their hearts...and never not bless them. Time can be replaced in some circumstances with money etc. But tithing is definitely one of those COMMANDMENTS that people can't see the forest for the trees...the adversary loves to stir up the members over stuff like this...and its working...
I can understand how you might think that but actually it's not swatting at Nats. When u take a more in-depth look, the monetary value is a significant and meaningful difference. God does not want us to be stupidly zealous, and he does he not want us to be financially poor and or destitute.
While I somewhat understand your viewpoint this to me is like arguing that when the Savior was baptized He was standing in 4 feet of water and not 3. My wife and I have paid a "sincere tithe' since the day we were married. A sincere tithe is between you and the Lord. Anytime the Lord blesses us with any kind of financial gain we pay 10% tithe. We don't micro manage it we don't talk to a financial guru or worry about wether we should be paying tithing on it or not we just pay it and have never needed for anything. We are not rich. We are not poor. We just want to stay Temple worthy. THATS what is important to hs. And that means, we believe, paying our tithes. We don't judge or ask others about tithes. Tithing is a lesser law the Lord has instituted to prepare us for the Higher law of consecration. Those that scrutinize and dissect and justify commandments to be lived by their own accounting in most cases will not be able to live a higher law. Someday soon money will mean absolutely nothing. It will be worthless. Its existence won't be necessary. And I believe all this dribble that has some members in fits and arguments and bickering brought about by none other than Satan himself will mean nothing and most people will look back in wonderment that they let this matter become so finite in their lives.
@@rdancranstonhi there. I actually addressed this concern on the show. If this is swatting at gnats for you, then by all means don’t allow that to detract your focus. It’s a very real issue for most people on the lower half of the income spectrum, and the backstop idea that things will just work out whatever you do has to contend with the many personal accounts that testify otherwise. God blesses certainly, but He also expects wise stewardship, which in many cases requires detailed consideration. I would invite you to imagine yourself in the position where tithing puts your budget upside down but nothing more can be cut from the budget, and your earning potential is also capped. See if you still fell like finding a way to make this work is still straining at gnats. Best wishes.
With all due respect paying tithing every month is the FIRST thing we pay and after budget WE ARE UPSIDE DOWN ON PAPER. And yet every month we come out right side up. And my income potential IS capped...I'm retired...FAITH goes a very long ways. I never worry about my bills until AFTER paying my tithes. That's the way I've always done ,but I certainly don't judge people who dont...however if one truly believes that tithing is a commandment then doesn't sound a little off to say. Thanks for everything you've given me heavenly Father...I know I owe you tithing but let me see if I can budget for that and if I have enough left over THEN you'll get it. That my friend doesn't develop faith. It ignores it. I also noticed you skipped over the Temple worthy comment ... I just feel what your doing in presenting this idea of tithing and all its intricate nuances and seemingly questioning it is EXACTLY how the adversary works to diminish the importance of Gods commandments. Very soon I'm sure members will want to hear how we can justify and work around the whole don't commit adultery or steal thing.....
@@rdancranston again, I am glad your approach works for you. I am sincerely interested to know how things come into balance month after month. Are you getting extra help? Or is your “paper” account of things inaccurate? You’re right-tithing is a commandment; however, the calculation method is not dictated by commandment. So before pushing one’s understanding onto others, isn’t it important to ask oneself, where did that understanding come from? I strive to follow the Savior’s example in putting the Law of the Sabbath back into its proper place, something the Pharisees bristled at when Christ did not intervene when his disciples picked grain as they passed through a field. Pharisaical additions to God’s law occur naturally without nefarious intent, and we are meant to differentiate between divine law and man’s law. So I would ask, what is the source of your understanding? In that light, it perplexes me that you suggest that my ideas on the subject represent Satan chipping away at faith, when what I presented is from the First Presidency and has been in active use via Church policy for 74 years and counting. As for the role of faith in this, the goal is not to diminish faith, but to bring it into proper balance with its counterpart: logic. The scriptures teach clearly that God communicates through one’s heart AND mind. We are meant to apply both without judgment for how the appear to balance out in another’s life. We rely on faith when we don’t see the way, and we rely on faith to test the divinity of teachings. And if those tests yield bad fruit (logically observable bad outcomes) we are meant to disregard the underlying teaching’s divinity. That process is repeated throughout scripture. The idea of faith without logic is non-scriptural. I doubt that you will find my take on faith compelling, just as I have found what you described not to be scripturally sound. Does this mean you and I could not serve and worship side by side? I hope not, for my part the different views are part of the richness of the gospel, and not something I need to snuff out. I’m sorry I missed what you were saying about the Temple. I went back and reviewed your comments and still don’t see it. I’m definitely not trying to skirt anything, and I did address temples in the presentation.
I pay my tithing and I have never suffered for any money needs since I started paying it. If you pay with an open heart you will be blessed and it doesn't matter what they do with the money once it's out of your hands. God will deal with other people who do things wrong according to his way of doing things.
Your personal anecdotal experience is simply a reflection of your own circumstances and good fortune. It's not a principle that other people can rely upon. Many people have trusted the faux principle you are pushing here...and have suffered tremendously for it...and then get told that they must have done something wrong or that they just need to keep having faith or god is "testing them".
I’m happy for you. But I’m so tired of people, who haven’t felt the pain of being poor, telling people who are struggling and feeling that pain not to worry.
I am happy for you that this has been your experience. Sincere question: did you understand that the central point of the episode was to explore the question of how to calculate the basis for that 10%. I, too, believe in sacrifice and blessings, but why not sacrifice everything under the principle that you’ll be blessed for it? That’s the logical thing to do if you truly believe in a transactional relationship with God. But maybe He wants us to be thoughtful about what we’re called to sacrifice using the fruits doctrine. Thanks for listening!
35 years ago when we had 5 young children, and my husband had just been diagnosed with a serious disease resulting in a medical discharge from the military, we were struggling to make ends meet by working any job available AND we were paying a full tithing in order to get blessings. My husband and I and the two youngest who were not in school yet, were driving home from a doctor's appointment (at a military hospital 100 miles away) when the car broke down 50 miles from home. We managed to hitchhike home with our two preschoolers. We were new to the ward and did not yet have home teachers assigned, so I phoned the elder's quorum president, explained the situation, and asked for help getting the car towed home and assistance getting it fixed. He told me that he thought that we should be able to take care of this ourselves and he would not recommend help for us. I was stunned! From that day forward I never asked for help from the church again (but still paid a full tithing on gross income). I was a TBM until 2 years ago.
“You don’t have to die on the alter of tithing.” This episode is so helpful and oddly enough, healing.
My wife and I have struggled to cover all our bills since we bought our first home a year ago. Paying tithing had become something that made me feel physically sick watching that much money going out each month. My second biggest expense each month was tithing. I had stopped contributing to my company's 401(k), cut grocery costs, cut any extra anything out of our daily, and it still wasn't enough. This video has been an answer to prayers for my wife and I. In the past month, we have slowly seen money begin to accrue back and can finally feel like we can start paying our debt down and feel better moving forward. Thank you to Aaron and the Mormonish Podcast for your insight and for helping us to see a new way of thinking.
As a former branch president I knew people who paid tithing on what they lived on even though they were borrowing money off their assets to do so. I had a Stake President who when drawn to the attention that people weren't paying tithing because they weren't earning a living emphasized they don't live on nothing and claimed they should be paying tithing on what they lived on for their most basic needs. I was more along the lines of letting people decide for themselves taking into account that there is a minimum cost of living, below which you starve and cannot pay your bills. The church does not pay your tithing back when you are running at a loss.
Excellent and insightful discussion. So much to think on. Every member should watch. Aaron did a great job of outlining and supporting so many great points.
"10% of zero is zero". In many cases that is exactly what some members should pay and they shouldn't think twice about it. God certainly doesn't.
Excellent and thought provoking presentation. Pharisaical tendencies is the perfect term for a lot of the nonsense in my neighborhood among “faithful Mormons.” At least twice a week I’m left shaking my head both deeply saddened and disgusted that they have so greatly missed the point. The church needs more nuanced, compassionate, and pragmatic members like Aaron.
It's evil not to define the payment of tithing - the smart people work it out but those 'ultra faithful members' get slaughtered - and the brethren know it.
So true!
The First Presidency actually views members with contempt and disdain. Russell Nelson manipulates members in Cody,Wyoming and Las Vegas, Nevada to pressure local government into allowing eyesore temples in residential neighborhoods. Money + ego = prophet.
This is spot on, saddly.
That's precisely the problem with LDS tithing as it stands today. A system that wrecks everyone but the smart and the rich cannot be of God.
I lost my job and we were trying to survive knowing we didn't have the money to meet our financial obligations. The Bishop said to pay tithing first and the Lord will bless us for showing faith. I believed this would work due to all the stories I heard, so we paid tithing first and when nothing miraculous happened we went back into the bishops office for church assistance. Talk about stress when you know your household expenses are $6k per month and you only have $4k per month coming in each month and your being told to pay $600 per month in tithing.
Now you have to pray to God that the church is willing to provide financial assistance.
When I was a missionary in Hungary, American missionaries were teaching to pay on the gross. The prez had to send out a letter saying to pay on the surplus since taxes were taking 70+% and leaving people without enough to live.
Yes. One of the first things that helped me realize that the "tithing on gross" thing was absurd was when I read about some places that at one time or another had tax rates of up to 80% or even 90%...meaning that if anyone in such situation paid 10% on their gross income, they would have zero or close to zero left over. The idea that God demands a faith tax is itself absurd. Of course we know that God has never said anything about it. It's only humans pretending to speak for God who deliver the demand. It's a scammy protection racket.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Amen brother....
AMEN !! Well said!
Thank you so much, Aaron. I have elderly family members who have always worked at low paying jobs, in their rural area. Now in retirement, they are paying tithing on their meager social security checks, and sacrificing buying insulin in order to do so. They are faithful, and proud of being self-reliant, and would never ask the ward for help. I feel certain that none of the GAs are sacrificing buying necessary insulin in their old age. It would be wonderful if their bishop stepped in and told them that they do not need to pay tithing on their social security checks.
How amazing that this discussion could happen between people in and out of the church!! Amazing Aaron that you took this topic to podcasters not in the faith anymore, and amazing R&L for allowing him to present! I LOVE seeing people work together like this! There is hope for this world!!
Awesome podcast! Love the insight gained from Aaron. The Church doesn't need your tithing! Anything you give them is more than they need.
It's interesting how today's version of tithing from earned wages has no biblical precedent yet it's frequently taught as an act of biblical obedience.
Perfectly said
I decided long ago to donate my time rather than money. That way I know exactly what my donation does as I witness it real time.
I declare myself a full tithe payer without hesitation.
Does your bishop not look at the official donation sheet?
@@hhsisters5508 In our church all monetary donations are both optional and anonymous to leadership. All individual accountability as a full tithe payer is solely between the parishioner and God. Donation of time rather than money is acceptable and in fact encouraged for those that are not financially able to donate.
The church gives lip service to supporting families, but do nothing to help young families. They should trust people to make these decisions for their families and not tie it to a temple recommend. If they want young couples to have children, they should stop making it harder for them financially. Easing up on the tithing and offering free or low cost child care would help young families so much.
I studied this out more deeply two years ago along with several of my close friends. We took a good 6 months to study out tithing, pray about it, looked at church history, what the church currently is doing and not doing with our funds, and contemplating the subject separately and together. This is what we found:
The current handbook and scripture ( Bible) say to pay on your “surplus”. Look up the definition of surplus…… it means a you donate $ or goods AFTER ALL your families NEEDS are taken care of. The church’s leadership contradict themselves because they actually haven’t studied the subject fully, they just repeat what their Stake President and the 15 tell them to say. And the church itself is a corporation and they’re interested in obtaining more of your funds to keep that huge wealthy company rolling forth. Study, contemplate, and pray to understand what is tithing means to you. You have the right and ability to determine what that means to you.
Spot on! It’s a bizarre phenomenon that the Church ostensibly shifted away from the United Order to its current practice of tithing because the UO was too hard and members weren’t prepared to accept it yet. Well, math-defying gross tithing is actually a more difficult law than the UO, because the UO would at least leave one with their needs met.
As for the leaders, I appreciate that generally it’s the affluent called into demanding positions because they have greater resources to take on those responsibilities. But it does become a problem with tithing, because they generally only know it from the angle of subordinating wants. Having needs go unmet is somewhat a foreign concept to them, and official discourse is severely lacking to remediate that understanding.
What an awesome discussion! I had a bishop tell my husband and me that we weren't paying enough and he was ready to take our temple recommends. (Bishop roulette is real) We showed him that he printed it wrong and he backed off, but he shouldn't have even looked at the amount we paid. I used to pay gross, then moved to net, and for the past two we have paid surplus. Tithing as the church now says it should be hurts the poor. The law of consecration would be easier for them to live since they have no surplus. Tithing is supposed to be a lesser law so why is it so much harder on the needy?
So exciting to get in early for a great discussion! We are a mixed faith family, my husband doesn’t pay 10% but he gives to the church while I choose to “tithe” to the community giving to local homeless shelters and food banks where I can literally see where my giving is going too instead of giving to a church and then washing my hands of doing good. People give to a church then rely on the church to do good and when they see someone in need will say “go to the church”🙃 personally I’ll never give another penny to any church.
I love that. It's so true, as members, we really do wash our hands of doing good for people. I knew I had tyke and thought, but I didn't quite have a great way to articulate it. As I've learned more I have realized how arrogant we are thinking that getting dressed up and go to the temple is a sacrifice to humanity. It's not. We feel good about ourselves for helping dead people, something apparently God can't figure out on his own. He needs us mormons to do his handiwork. All the while, the living are fending for themselves.
Good for you! Instead of going to church I volunteer in a homeless kitchen. I have gotten more out of that then I ever did church. But more importantly, you get to actually see what is going on in your community. You make lasting friendships, it's absolutely beautiful!
@@greg-op2jh very true!! Image how much different this world would be if instead of the church sucking millions out of communities each year it went to foundations and shelter that did the hard work. I know some people feel like they need religion and do what’s best for you but the giving of money has to stop. Then see how many “Pastors” are “called” when they won’t get Joel Olsteen rich 👀
This sounds a lot like...[whisper]....free agency. Don't let Bednar hear about it.
I don't need years of experience in finance, accounting, and ward clerk callings to know that the amount of tithing everyone should pay is $0. Virtually all of the money is sent to SLC to fill the coffers of the obscenely wealthy corporation, which is unaccountable to church members, and which actively seeks to deceive said members. It would perhaps be different if the money went towards the local ward for activities and charitable work but it doesn't.
Amazing information and clarity. Thank you.
This policy of "pay your tithing and the church will support your needs" ensures the GAs get paid and the local members support those in need, because that assistance comes from fast offering from the members of that ward.
GAs are not paid
@@paulamortensen36this is factually wrong. Half of this video is how the GA’s are paid
Szervusztok! Love hearing from and reading comments by former Hungarian Missionaries! I wonder how many of us served together. I was there in 2006-07 and honestly don’t remember how I taught tithing. But I know people were struggling and the church in general asked so much. Going to the temple was a once or maybe twice in a lifetime event for most, because of the cost of travel, housing, etc while making the equivalent of a dollar or two an hour at work was just a functional lifelong limitation. I remember teaching that temple attendance was good but ultimately optional and more important was making your home a “temple”, which caused cognitive dissonance when I went back to BYU and was told we should be going “weekly”. I experienced similar dissonance when trying to think through the importance of temple marriage in Provo compared to having taught for 2 years that you should be civilly married first and add the temple covenant later when your situation allows. No shame whatsoever in choosing civil marriage before temple marriage if that is what makes sense for you, but I saw peers actively shame others for exactly that in Utah.
The financial surplus for members was generally 0, yet tithes were absolutely preached as necessary. The cost of a bread roll during my two years went from about 6 forint to about 25 forint (0.03 USD to 0.12 USD at the time) and was what I used to demonstrate how much inflation we experienced in those 2 years alone. Pay didn’t go up, costs did. Tithing expectations stayed static as the financial environment changed.
Even as Missionaries we were running out of money with our monthly “stipend” (which was our own money since we were paying to be there). As a mission secretary I tried to push for the mission to bump up our funds since we couldn’t afford more than noodles and sour cream most evenings. We couldn’t generally regularly afford a protein. I remember a particularly rough 2 weeks where I could only afford a roll or two a day and some bulk unflavored oatmeal with water because we ran out of funds for the month halfway through. After a lot of work I think I was able to get a small bump in the monthly stipend, well behind inflation though.
My son had a similar experience. He was next door in Romania.
I attended tithing settlement with my young family one year. The bishop warned us that if we weren't honest about being a full tithe payer God would kill us like he did in the book of Acts.
From what I've observed over the years, it's actually only a few of the General Authorities who give up much of anything in financial terms when they become GAs. Probably most of them come out ahead in the deal. Just a few examples: Nelson became an apostle at the typical retirement age for his profession. Presumably, he has a pension stream that comes from that professional career, to which the generous GA compensation package ("stipend" plus expenses and so on) is simply added. Guys like Packer, Monson and Hinckley spent their entire lives working for church owned or controlled organizations. Becoming a GA (i.e. the bosses over such organizations) is simply the highest position that can be aspired to on such a career path. Many GAs only "retired" from their own business enterprises, which continued to be run by family members and partners, generating income streams or, in other cases, cashed out of their business to the tune of possibly millions, when becoming GAs. Someone like Ballard (who obviously had family connections to the Mormon elite) had his failed business bailed out and creditors paid off when the Church bought his fire-damaged Valley Music Hall and turned it into a church property...right when Ballard was called to be a GA. Richard Hinckley (Gordon's son) was involved in church service for most of his life, while apparently dabbling in various businesses (apparently without much financial success) and spent a lot of time seemingly acting as a personal assistant for his dad. He was rewarded with a GA spot before his dad died, served for a few years and then retired to "emeritus" status. It seems likely that he receives a form of pension from the Church pursuant to such retirement. I believe the leaks of information about GA compensation may be only the tip of the iceberg with regard to what they actually get in total.
Great episode. My father sold all of his silver bars to pay tithing for the year just to get a recommend. He believed in gross earnings. He had alot of silver all gone in one tithing payment.
One of the best and most important episodes to date. Thank you so much for doing this.
You simply can't interpret Lynn G. Robbins' statement as being in any way in line with the surplus model. He's couching it as a choice between eating and paying tithing. Anyone who feels like they have to make that choice obviously has zero surplus.
His talk was sheer cultish stupidity, and the first presidency should've had it stricken. But no way they would.
I certainly don’t think Elder Robbins had surplus in mind, which leads me to believe that as a GA even he was uniformed as to the full implications of the 1970 FP Statement. Otherwise I would be very, very interested to hear how he syncs the two.
Because faithful members will generally receive these faith/loyalty-heavy messages as authoritative, that segment was intended to show that the only way they hold truth is if surplus/net methods are on the table as acceptable options.
A true understanding of biblical tithes and sacrifices shows the mercy and fairness of giving, nothing like the lds church system
My dad donated 10% of gross. He also did NOT claim it as a tax deduction. If he claimed it as a tax deduction he upped the donation to 13%.
Good luck Brother Brewster. I know that bishops are generally trained to take whatever tithe someone will pay. If they declare it a "full tithe", the bishop checks the box.
Excellent episode! Thanks to all of you!
I love how the church uses fine print. *results may vary*
Boom
I wish I would have heard this presentation 40+ years ago... I paid tithing on gross income despite also paying student loan payments that were equal to (and sometimes exceeded) my rent/house payments. During those years until I stopped paying tithing 7 years ago, I saved nothing for retirement. I think now how much less financial stress we would have had if we calculated our tithing differently. The thing is, I never knew there was an option to pay anything other that tithing based on gross income. I wish this could be presented to all active church members...
I heard to fit the definition of "first fruits" it had to be gross.
But it is still an Old Covenant practice, not a New Covenant one. In the New Covenant, each person decides the amount they will give, according to 2nd Corinthians 9:7.
We stopped donating to the church and started donating to charities that are transparent and five to those we know need help. My tithes will go to help people, not for the church to build malls and invest in apple and Microsoft.
Wow. Rebecca you have some powerful stories.
Her BYU bishop story was shocking. The church taught multiple generations how to lie (either about money and/or if they power up their own little factory) - that very fact alone should get people heading for the exit door -
"It's evil not to define the payment of tithing - the smart people work it out but those 'ultra faithful members' get slaughtered - and the brethren know it."
So True.
This was fantastic.
In the Book of Mormon, it says that we may "...partake of his salvation...without money and without price." (2 Nephi 26:23-25) Does this not debunk tithing? If not why not?
You bring up an interesting point. Contrast that teaching with the JS quote that a religion that doesn’t require the sacrifice of all things cannot produce the faith necessary for salvation.
This is one of those cases of contradictory messages that can only be true if an individual uses discernment to moderate between both at a healthy tension. Sadly, human nature gravitates toward pharisaical hedging, and we see the “without money and without price” angle discarded.
Do emeritus General Authorities continue to enjoy their “modest living allowances” until they die? Do the wives get survivor benefits? Why does The First Presidency consider “financial transparency” a toxic waste dump to be avoided at all costs? 🥴
@@whitesalamander just my opinion, but I think authoritarian control is a generational value that will diminish as current senior leaders pass on. If you want to view it through a gospel lens, call it a manifestation of the natural man.
Transparency is crucial to a healthy organization and to maintaining trust. In this presentation alone we touched on how GA comp, Church holdings, and use of funds are necessary inputs for a member’s informed calculation of tithing. Until Church leadership values transparency members will just have to do their best with the info they have.
Wouldn’t $100 plus $10 mean $110 and therefore tithing of $11 not $10?
;)
Give directly to the needy and turn in the receipts for your tithing. The church's effective charity rate is 14%. Most charities would be investigated as this is considered criminally low. I would love to hear the bishops reaction to this ploy.
Born and raised in SoCal…there was a church called The Crystal Cathedral and the church was beautiful. Low and behold, the church was audited for misuse of funds…It was the minister’s son who was taking money out of the tithing fund…and at the end of every service there would be a well-known sports caster “selling a beautiful gold medallion” for just $50. Sooo cheesy! And definitely sent the wrong message for teaching God and Jesus’ message. So, please pay your tithing, and go ahead and buy that medallion!
What? I'm so confused about the medallion part? Some dude was just selling jewelry from the pulpit?
The Rev. Robert Schuller was a well known evangelist in Orange County. Rev. Schuller built a church called The Crystal Cathedral and at the end of every televised service, Ed Arnold, a sportscaster from LA did a tv promotion for a “gold medallion” of some sort as a fund raiser for the church. Sooo sleezy. And all along Rev. Schuller’s son was dipping his had in tithing money. I believe the IRS charged the church for fraud. Bye, bye Crystal Cathedral. Please Google. Even the Rev. was a little too sleazy for my liking.
How does a church with over $200 billion need struggling families to pay tithing?
Elder Bednar explicitly said it doesn’t, but that the members need the blessings of being full tithe payers. That statement ceases to be problematic when the members learn that their token widow’s mite is absolutely acceptable before God.
Time is money, out in the world. Meaning our jobs. Yet the church isn't paying tithing to us for all the work we give out for free. The time spent in callings. The gas we spend to go to church and activities. The extra money we spend in our callings. The gas for visiting teachers and home teachers. The time and money spent making meals for others. Many ways we spend money for the church besides tithing. Then money spent for missionary work. Fast Sunday monies. Its an expensive church to belong to especially for the destitute.
Tithing is a trigger for me. As an active believing member of the church, I get tired of the tithing talks. I was a single dad who didn’t have two nickels to rub together. Tithing was used as a weapon. I was told the the doctrine and covenants taught if you’re not contributing you should be cast off. Asking for home teachers, the bishop told me when you pay tithing then you can have friends. Then when I was getting remarried in the temple, paying tithing, I was questioned by the ward clerk and financial clerk if I was really paying a full tithing. I was told to take a hloc out on my home to pay tithing. I didn’t. 20 years later and active and I’m not sure how I feel about tithing.
Great topic and guest, as always. At ~22 min Landon jokes that he likes the surplus method because 10% of zero is zero. Yet this seems to be the understanding of tithing for decades. Mormonism Live has a great episode tracking the history of this. Unfortunately leadership reguarly gives talks to shame people and contradict it - the whole 'pay 1st and if you can't afford food get it from the storehouse' line, which IMO is deeply unethical. Worse, because of bishop roulette, many low income people are excluded from family temple activities and ordinances. For example, a friend's mother is TBM, widowed early, and lives on very limited social security. She has no surplus - so according to this method she should still get a recommend. Nope - she has been denied one and cannot attend her own child's wedding this summer. Egregious. Temple recommends are the ultimate in coercive control. Until leadership clearly gives local leaders direction to be maximally flexible and compassionate, they will likely default to extracting the widows mite or maximum. And for what? To pad a $250B and growing capitalist investment and real estate corporation? I hope more members will indeed take a moral stand and personal interpretation - say like Nemo - and pay as much and to which charities as they see fit. Oh wait - sounds like how most of us NeverMos operate! And why do I care so much? Beyond all the members and exmembers and mixed families around us here in Utah who may struggle with this, we US taxpayers subsidize all tithing because religions have super special no-financial-transparency-for-them non-profit rules. And many members are told to turn to public benefits like Medicaid but still pay tithing. So indirectly its my money too.
First of all there is no doctrine the covers the frequency of tithing payments. The church asks only one a year so there is no reason why we should be able to pay once a year. Why give money to the church for them to invest it in there 100 billion fund when you could do it. The theory is that if you participated in a tithing investment fund a contributed on a regular basis then at some point the fund could cover all your tithing in perpetuity.
I notice that tithing money only flows in one direction: from member to the church. For example, if a member invests part of his remaining 90% in the stock market, then he again tithes to the church on that growth. Yet, the church does not reimburse the member when church donations grow in the stock market; the member provided the seed money to get that gain.
@@stevenparkin6486 Yes. The distinction between investment returns/interest earned by the Church from tithing funds versus the tithing amounts that the Church received from members...is the basis on which (with a huge dose of sophistry) the Church leaders have claimed that certain projects "were not paid for using tithing". They're hoping that members will just accept that and stop thinking. They don't want the members to realize that when they donate $5.000 to the Church, they are also donating/giving to the Church all of the interest/investment earning potential of that money. So the City Creek Center was developed using tithing, even if the leaders want the members to think that it wasn't.
@stevenparkin6486 tith Payers should get dividends. No wonder those faces smirk at the people as they sit in velvet chairs.
Thought provoking, however, LDS Tithing in 1838, was based on 10% of the interest that would be earned on your net worth, not income. Supposedly Brigham Young changed the tithing definition to 10% of total income. So a question, Do the current Church Leaders pay tithing on their gross? Such as the value of their pensions, per diem and fees collected, free car(paid by the Church), free BYU educations for their family, free airplane rides and any other Church paid perks or other perks? I think they just "lie for God" and call everyone who listens to them, fools.
Fascinating!
This excellent video is in the money!
If we pay more tithing than required, will we be blessed with a temple that has a higher steeple than others? lol
Great Episode R & L!
When the church makes the statement that tithing is for feeding the hungry and clothing the poor.. dose that apply to the local person in the ward… Abraham only payed tithing of 10% of the spoils of war.. his personal wealth was never tithed.. and he was more righteous than most… is that what God always intended for all of us too..
Consider this hypothetical example: Imagine Mitt Romney was POTUS. Should he pay tithing on the value of his White House residency? The WH chef, butler, and housekeepers? His travel and security? His catered meals? The value of VIP meetings with dignitaries? Federal protection of his extended family while he is POTUS? The value of federal protection over the rest of his life after his term ends as POTUS?
Scientology teaches the same- take out loans, use credit cards etc
"The nature of the blessings will vary" - Nelson talk footnote quoted at ~1:52. Did they trademark that? Sounds like a disclaimer on a prescription medicine label. But at least the latter had to pass scientific rigorous research & proven efficacy before being released for public consumption. Confirmation bias at work, straight from the prophet. Yes its heads we win tails we win keep paying regardless.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!
I would just like to point out as I am on the snap program (EBT/food stamps) that if you use your EBT card to cash out and use money that is illegal and you get penalized by the government and you lose the privileges to get your benefits. So it's not a matter of opinion that's the law
Abraham gave after an amazing victory. Hint hint. Paul said, God loves a cheerful giver without pretending that there's a law of tithing that makes God happy with you. After leaving the lies of Mormonism, I set aside money and give to accountable charities that do a lot of good in the world. Because the LDS church struggles with accountability, I wouldn't give them a dime.
even self reliant people can get into a bind, and dont count on them to be there for you every time, it doesnt happen
01:58:30 This all stems from Joseph’s early desire to make money without having to work. Example: His early years of treasure digging. People would pay him to find treasure on their property. He would never find the treasure and then he would blame them for not doing all the steps exactly correctly Or they just need to pay more and keep trying. The church does the same thing today. They promise blessings, and if you don’t get them, it’s because you’re either not doing it exactly right or it’s a test and you need to keep trying. When you think about it, the reward for paying is the highest rite in the church: attending the temple. The whole purpose for worthiness interviews, in my opinion, is to make sure members are paying money.
Great connection between tithing and treasure digging.
They don’t need to be paid because they all have their own money from previous income. Although there used to be an apartment for the prophet which isn’t used anymore
Paying for indulgences ... tithing funds salt town. Zions subterranean city.. go go team zion
Great discussion. And the church/prosperity pastors use god-talk to say 'pay your tithe, money, seed to God' - or else. NO! Not going to God! Going to the growing coffer$, the lifestyles of the rich & famous, etc....
There's no way the "church" wouldn't have known how tithing hurts low income people so much more than upper income payers. L.D.S. Inc. will take the widow's mite and laugh all the way to the bank.
full tithe payer here, dont count on the bishop, omg they can turn you down flat
The General authories are definily not paid
Haha! You would be wrong! Watch the episode. We show a pay stub for Elder Eyring. All the Q15 receive paychecks, homes, cars, etc. The pay stubs were leaked years ago. Just another lie the church allows to linger without clarifying.
They are able to get away with this claim simply by not calling it a salary. It’s a “living stipend.” Well, no one who’s a true believer would question the necessity of that, right? After all, they devote all their time to building the kingdom, and they must live.
But then you learn more and more…do they actually *need* to be chauffeured around by their own full-time driver in their church-provided cars? Because they are…
Do they need to make their visits around the world in PRIVATE JETS? Because they do…
Do mission presidents need a living stipend and fancy house? Yes, maybe. But do they also need to be reimbursed for the cost of a gardener and full-time cook and their kids’ private school tuition and music lessons and the cost of BIRTHDAY GIFTS? Because they are…
@@jpnwtn business men and other high ranking people use private jet so can’t the church. The prophet is a world renound heart surgeon, do you really think he needs to be paid. The others have their own money too. That so called chauffeur is a body guard. And for the rest of it you couldn’t be more wrong
@@paulamortensen36
If you are fine paying tithing so that it can be used on shopping malls and private jets and to sit in a hedge fund and grow interest, good for you, since that’s what’s happening.
Many of us are not comfortable with that 🤷♀️
My source for believing that mission presidents DO get paid a generous stipend, that includes reimbursement for things like a gardener to a gift, is the mission president handbook leak in 2012. What is your source that proves it is not true?
My Father is a humble LDS Church members and always pay tithing and since i was born, we don't have our own house, we don't have a car or motorcycle, we are a poor family, we have to stay in our relative house who are not LDS. My opinion, if you still can live in comfort then I can say that you don't pay your tithing. And about the LDS Church and Tithing, I felt that we have to pay money to live in the Highest Heaven/Celestial.
I don’t think God collects rent.
@@Wren402 apparently
If only the church would actually administer to the wants of impoverished saints as commanded to newel k Whitney..."wo unto him that sayeth, all is well in zion, yeah zion prospereth"
Giving your money to the impoverished means you don’t still own it..putting it in temples means you still own it it is now just in the form of real estate!
@@mormonishpodcast1036 th-cam.com/video/MRbabXmHeJY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=H03vwaKNkTg_4LYN
In the bible it sais to pay a 10th and it is helping with the poor and needy all around the world look at the church world report podcast we gave billions to world desasters etc i pay my thithing and are glad and blessed by doing so
If you look in depth at "Tithing" in the Bible, it is almost nothing like what the churches definition is and what the church does with the money. Again, what is done with the money is very different biblically than what the church does. The fact of the matter is the church in no case whatsoever needs one penny of donations from any members of the church to survive and thrive.
They are completely self sustaining.
Yet they certainly will ask for fast offerings and tithing and missionary donations and perpetual fund donations and youth group activity, donations, and welfare donations . Et al. It's disgusting!
Look at the SEC law suit and how the church was sued for 5 MILLION DOLLARS because it hid 43 BILLION DOLLARS. That's not giving charity. That's hiding money from the members.
How should Social Security be calculated?
It shouldn’t.
I’m retired and paying the Church close to nothing. No guilt at all. I support two non-LDS doctors on a medical mission. Honestly I’m done giving money to a multi billion corporation.
I’m not paying on my social security- I paid on my gross all my life so as far as I’m concerned I’ve already tithed on that
God does not expect a family to go hungry to pay a church worth billions. The Mormon church is a sick puppy.
Landin would make a good bishop ) or pastor 2:05:59 come as you are
Come join Coffee & Tea hour right before the meeting get to know the people at your church
Shower people with love give an inspiring Bible message
I love you see you next week .
People are hungry for “more”
They want to be spiritually fed when they come to church .
I was raised Mormon ) now a born again Christain it’s been quite a journey .
I’m studying christanity in depth and my view points have changed with all the study I’m doing I really think the Jewish faith is the original faith of God
He created the universe in the Hebrew language .
I have in my heart turned to the God of Israel . He is my rock and refuge , and my salvation .
I love this podcast I would love to be able to call in and talk with you and landin. I look forward to all the new shows
They are so fun , you guys ROCK.
I’m so grateful for the work you do 🤎
Since when does using logic make for a justifiable nuance of the commandments? Everyone in the world knows coffee & tea are beneficial, yet those will keep you out of the temple. I love this discussion and wish it were how tithing was taught by church leaders, but it’s not. If this is how you choose to see tithing, you’re making up your own version of Mormonism and rolling the bishop roulette dice. It’s ok to realize the church is bullsh*t.
maybe 10 % is base line lol sow e dont go to high
Just simply ask yourselves! Are we in the New Testament? 🙄If we are, then why do we allow false prophets to keep defiling the Holy name of Christ by ignorantly blaspheming Him in The Holy Ghost? 👉creating guilt, fear, corruption, confusion and all evil in the minds of Jesus' New Creation who are supposed to be living in the NEW?
1. Beginning👉On the CROSS❤ Jesus said, "It is Finished."
(John19:30).🙏🏻 2. Ending👉 (After the Literal Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). ❤Jesus said, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end."👉
(Revelation 21:6).❤ Simply put: All that is OLD OLD OLD like: 👉 1. Old Covenants eg., (tithes and offerings🤑), ENDED. 👉 2. All Old Testament prophecies ENDED. 👉
3. The First Earth and the First Heaven which is the👉 First Creation. ENDED. How? 👉❤IN CHRIST ALONE!😍 Jesus' New Creation (New Jerusalem) is found only in the New Person, Born a New Creation❤IN CHRIST❤who is DWELLING For Ever with men in the Holy Ghost.🙏🏻 How and Why? Read Revelation 21 : 3--5. Nobody can comfort and wipe away our tears of trials and sufferings in this life than this: 👉That through FAITH we are ASSURED of Jesus' GRACE and LOVE for ALL who BELIEVE and TURN to Love our ONLY God and Father Jesus Christ with all our hearts. Remember!👉 There is absolutely NOTHING NEW under heaven👉 BUT that person NEWLY CREATED: by putting all his/her TRUST in Jesus ALONE and not in . Avoid any churchy foundational believes! For goodness sake they are ALL Cults. Jesus never built one church building/temple neither were his Apostles. If you already have a firm unwavering belief that Jesus is The Christ: that His Church is, has and had been FOUNDED only ONCE, then we do not need any more human brain to control and lie to us. 😍Imagine having everybody SAVED from the lies of men into the True Christ right here in this New Creation/New Earth life BELIEVING in ONE God.😍 Revelation 21:4 where it is written: ...; and there shall be no more death, .... Why NO MORE DEATH? Because everybody is a believing desciple of Christ. Last but not least beautiful sufferers please SET YOURSELVES FREE. I have never been HAPPIER since I have researched and studied the scriptures in the Lord's way having totally believed that no man is supposed to be my teacher but the Holy Ghost Alone. Read John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Other Scriptures to read please. Hebrews 8:11. Matthew 23:8. John 14:16. John 15:26 John 16:7. Isaiah 54:13. John 5:39,40.
❤❤❤❤❤
The bible sais to pay a 10th thithing most religions pay thithing we love to pay our thithing
Tithing is running well for the church building etc you know but now are mocking means mocking Gods church as u are well know for blessing
WOW...talk about swatting at gnats. The Lord has asked us to 10% of our increase...You will never go wrong paying your tithing on anything you DECIDE TO. The Lord will never say " I'm not going to bless you because you paid tithing on gross or net or bday money or money you found etc" ...some people pay do not pay tithing because their spouse won't allow them...however their hearts desire is they would if they could. The Lord will see their hearts...and never not bless them. Time can be replaced in some circumstances with money etc. But tithing is definitely one of those COMMANDMENTS that people can't see the forest for the trees...the adversary loves to stir up the members over stuff like this...and its working...
I can understand how you might think that but actually it's not swatting at Nats. When u take a more in-depth look, the monetary value is a significant and meaningful difference. God does not want us to be stupidly zealous, and he does he
not want us to be financially poor and or destitute.
While I somewhat understand your viewpoint this to me is like arguing that when the Savior was baptized He was standing in 4 feet of water and not 3. My wife and I have paid a "sincere tithe' since the day we were married. A sincere tithe is between you and the Lord. Anytime the Lord blesses us with any kind of financial gain we pay 10% tithe. We don't micro manage it we don't talk to a financial guru or worry about wether we should be paying tithing on it or not we just pay it and have never needed for anything. We are not rich. We are not poor. We just want to stay Temple worthy. THATS what is important to hs. And that means, we believe, paying our tithes. We don't judge or ask others about tithes. Tithing is a lesser law the Lord has instituted to prepare us for the Higher law of consecration. Those that scrutinize and dissect and justify commandments to be lived by their own accounting in most cases will not be able to live a higher law. Someday soon money will mean absolutely nothing. It will be worthless. Its existence won't be necessary. And I believe all this dribble that has some members in fits and arguments and bickering brought about by none other than Satan himself will mean nothing and most people will look back in wonderment that they let this matter become so finite in their lives.
@@rdancranstonhi there. I actually addressed this concern on the show. If this is swatting at gnats for you, then by all means don’t allow that to detract your focus.
It’s a very real issue for most people on the lower half of the income spectrum, and the backstop idea that things will just work out whatever you do has to contend with the many personal accounts that testify otherwise. God blesses certainly, but He also expects wise stewardship, which in many cases requires detailed consideration. I would invite you to imagine yourself in the position where tithing puts your budget upside down but nothing more can be cut from the budget, and your earning potential is also capped. See if you still fell like finding a way to make this work is still straining at gnats.
Best wishes.
With all due respect paying tithing every month is the FIRST thing we pay and after budget WE ARE UPSIDE DOWN ON PAPER. And yet every month we come out right side up. And my income potential IS capped...I'm retired...FAITH goes a very long ways. I never worry about my bills until AFTER paying my tithes. That's the way I've always done ,but I certainly don't judge people who dont...however if one truly believes that tithing is a commandment then doesn't sound a little off to say. Thanks for everything you've given me heavenly Father...I know I owe you tithing but let me see if I can budget for that and if I have enough left over THEN you'll get it. That my friend doesn't develop faith. It ignores it. I also noticed you skipped over the Temple worthy comment ... I just feel what your doing in presenting this idea of tithing and all its intricate nuances and seemingly questioning it is EXACTLY how the adversary works to diminish the importance of Gods commandments. Very soon I'm sure members will want to hear how we can justify and work around the whole don't commit adultery or steal thing.....
@@rdancranston again, I am glad your approach works for you. I am sincerely interested to know how things come into balance month after month. Are you getting extra help? Or is your “paper” account of things inaccurate?
You’re right-tithing is a commandment; however, the calculation method is not dictated by commandment. So before pushing one’s understanding onto others, isn’t it important to ask oneself, where did that understanding come from?
I strive to follow the Savior’s example in putting the Law of the Sabbath back into its proper place, something the Pharisees bristled at when Christ did not intervene when his disciples picked grain as they passed through a field. Pharisaical additions to God’s law occur naturally without nefarious intent, and we are meant to differentiate between divine law and man’s law. So I would ask, what is the source of your understanding?
In that light, it perplexes me that you suggest that my ideas on the subject represent Satan chipping away at faith, when what I presented is from the First Presidency and has been in active use via Church policy for 74 years and counting.
As for the role of faith in this, the goal is not to diminish faith, but to bring it into proper balance with its counterpart: logic. The scriptures teach clearly that God communicates through one’s heart AND mind. We are meant to apply both without judgment for how the appear to balance out in another’s life. We rely on faith when we don’t see the way, and we rely on faith to test the divinity of teachings. And if those tests yield bad fruit (logically observable bad outcomes) we are meant to disregard the underlying teaching’s divinity. That process is repeated throughout scripture. The idea of faith without logic is non-scriptural.
I doubt that you will find my take on faith compelling, just as I have found what you described not to be scripturally sound. Does this mean you and I could not serve and worship side by side? I hope not, for my part the different views are part of the richness of the gospel, and not something I need to snuff out.
I’m sorry I missed what you were saying about the Temple. I went back and reviewed your comments and still don’t see it. I’m definitely not trying to skirt anything, and I did address temples in the presentation.
Conversation is for nothing
I pay my tithing and I have never suffered for any money needs since I started paying it. If you pay with an open heart you will be blessed and it doesn't matter what they do with the money once it's out of your hands. God will deal with other people who do things wrong according to his way of doing things.
Your personal anecdotal experience is simply a reflection of your own circumstances and good fortune. It's not a principle that other people can rely upon. Many people have trusted the faux principle you are pushing here...and have suffered tremendously for it...and then get told that they must have done something wrong or that they just need to keep having faith or god is "testing them".
I’m happy for you. But I’m so tired of people, who haven’t felt the pain of being poor, telling people who are struggling and feeling that pain not to worry.
Faith based claim. Much like priesthood blessings.
I am happy for you that this has been your experience. Sincere question: did you understand that the central point of the episode was to explore the question of how to calculate the basis for that 10%.
I, too, believe in sacrifice and blessings, but why not sacrifice everything under the principle that you’ll be blessed for it? That’s the logical thing to do if you truly believe in a transactional relationship with God. But maybe He wants us to be thoughtful about what we’re called to sacrifice using the fruits doctrine.
Thanks for listening!
Nope, god does not want someone to be stupid and pay more than they need to
Excellent episode!!!