THE RESERVE LIST IS A LIE = In Response to the Tolarian Community College video by the Professor
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- #mtg #financefridays #vintagemagic
The video the Professor made was very good, a discussion worth talking about. I chime in my points and would love to here your thoughts.
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I just want to play legacy but I don’t want to take out a second loan on my car.
I’m glad this was a video that talks since I was afraid you’d be on the other side of this thank you
who the hell takes out a loan against their car..lol
Having one car loan is the reason you would need another loan for magic cards.
Difference is legacy decks tend to hold their value if not increase in value. A car is marked "well played" as soon as it leaves the lot.
@Always On It yeah the entitlement is fucking annoying. Boo hoo you have to proxy some cards so you can play casually with your friends. Cry me a river. These people are ridiculous
As an investor you see both sides arguments and that’s good
As someone who played and collected in the very early days and sold out many years ago I’ve flirted with buying back into vintage and I may still yet , my thought is if duals and other power are eventually printed in masters sets then whoever has them will still try and trade up to original versions for their decks - I would
The problem of reprints, which i want to happend, is that if you reprint for example dual lands. The market for the vintage version will really get to a minimum, just collectors with a lot of money. People would simply buy the new flashy ones and forget about the old versions. Old versions would still be very expensive, but no one will buy them. And with no one i mean just some collectos with much money to spear and some love for the old staff they used to play with
@@Jacky.D that's just not true. there will always lots of people want to buy them. the commander bring lots of new players everyday and the demand for original print of dual lands will always exist while the supply never increase
@@Jacky.D Not true at all. The OG versions will be the "bling". Look at me, I have OG duals. etc etc They will still be in high demand, they will still be Magic history and wil still demand a premium price.
@@darkobiwan i would look at theme and say ok nice art. Btw i got the same card here is also legal and it has the same poweer level. I paid 10 euros for kt and you paid 300. Enjoy your og version. I dont give a fuck about og version and like me many many people.its stupid
SephVidBlogs :: people build all foil decks for bling. It’s a status symbol, says I’m rich as hell and love my magic cards. So Alpha/Beta cards will still be the biggest big dick move you can have. Especially if you throw down Alpha power 9’s.
I thought you were gonna be totally against what the Prof said, color me surprised!
I feel the vintage magic market has evolved...a LOT
@@vintagemagic I think Masterpieces and those values show how escalated the value of OG duals and prints would be for cards as you said. Sol Ring is a $2 card all day, but goodluck getting a AB or Masterpiece for a reasonable cost. It's good to evolve when the data shows you how the market will act. People love their unique and special items.
It really wouldn't. They would have to prove that the broken promise effected them. And then answer why other changes made with the list didnt hurt them because cards have put cards on the list and taken off multiple times.
@@mikemarek6243 Demonic tutor is a perfect example of what reprinting does to price. Win or loose, there will be expensive lawsuits because there would be statistically demonstrable financial losses. If you want to play old formats and can't afford the cards, just get comfortable with playing proxies.
@@firstlast642 Sol Ring is not a "$2 card all day." If Sol Ring was rare and disco'd after Unlimited, we would referring to the Power 10, not the Power 9.
brian's comments about the patina is just gatekeeping. You don't lose the history at all. The history won't change. It just allows the cards to be more available. Those that want them but are priced out are unlikely to just save and buy into them. These RL desired cards are just there for collectors so far mainly. The buyouts of non playable RL cards would likely be impacted if the RL got removed, but collectors may still desire them.
Magic is a game. Locking playable pieces out due to cost is a detriment to the game. The RL should be abolished. (I own an unlimited twister, one of each revised dual and many other RL cards for commander and my opinion on this is absolutely that the RL should not exist)
I got into magic 4 years ago so i''m still a relatively new player, if they reprinted reserve list cards i'd abandon all other formats for legacy or vintage, it's deeply fustrating that I can't play these formats with my friends at the table
China is already solving the problem: Producing fake good quality card staples. 😁
god bless china and the communist party
Facebook Proxy Groups are awesome too. I get proxys printed on real magic card backs for $2.50 per card, any card, any series, shipping takes 3 days. just picked up a set of old Mishra's Factories, Fall winter spring and summer for under $10 bucks. Double sleeved... definitely cant tell they are not real
@@ErrorAcquired What group do you get yours from?
@@arkturusgrey2464 "Magic the Gatherin Proxy Discussion" and "MTG Alters/Proxies". Look for a user named Pixelated Imp. but there are many people willing to print cards for you typically around 2 bucks. Ask for example pictures before ordering, and then you send them a list of what you want, then they will give you a quote to pay over paypal, once paid, they ship out same day in my experience
@@ErrorAcquired good thing you put them out here so blatantly so Wizards can find them easier and sue them into oblivion for counterfeiting their product.
An example that might mean a lot: I saw recently that back in 2016 Pokemon TCG did a reprint set called Evolutions where they reprinted some of their original cards, and made them slightly more powerful to match their power ramped meta of higher damage. There was a remaking of the original Charizard with updated stats, but the originals are still hold their value. If you treated first edition = alpha, and shadow = beta, you can find the price range between the old and reprints to be vast.
*first edition = alpha, and shadow = beta*
Just to be needlessly pedantic, IIRC when it comes to Pokémon, there was shadowless 1E, shadowless unlimited edition, and shadowed unlimited edition (and a EU/UK only 4th print run too? IIRC?)
Been saying this forever... Reprints WON'T HURT ABU/ RL printings it will actually HELP BOOST them as it'll bring new Blood to the Collectors Market!
But it would be a bloodbath for RL cards printed from Revised to Mercadian. It's the simple truth. This argument only addresses ABU, and the majority of cards on the RL don't fit into just those sets. Look at the list of cards removed in 2002. They all got obliterated. I'm not saying I'm on either side, but let's not deliberately omit scenarios in absolute favor of the RL.
Think of a Ferrari. A new Ferrari (reprinted reserved list) is still a collectors item. And making them has no affect on the value of a vintage Ferrari (original card) in GOOD condition.
Theres a difference dude. New Ferarri’s are still expensive. If duals are in some regular priced magic set. That is not the same. I think a good product is Secret Lair: Land of the Dimir which includes USea, watery grave, Fetid pool, sunken hallow and then polluted delta and it starts at like 250-300. They do that for all of the guilds slowly. Maybe like 5 a year so its spread out over two years. I could definitely get behind that.
@@ssnow5516 the point still stands though. The example prof gave was this red dragon(forgot the name) and they took the card and put it in the free sample decks and the original dragon didnt drop a dime
@@mikemarek6243 shivan dragon, and yeah, the boi has been reprinted so many times in multiple ways.
@@mikemarek6243 this red dragon also isn’t worth anything so it is a nonsense example.
@@tbd3058 an M19 Shivan is 0.02€. An alpha Shivan in 'excellent' condition sells for 4,000€. I think it is a good example.
But wouldn't reprinting some of those cards allow collectors to keep those alpha/beta packs sealed for longer? Making them more valuable?
The reserved list videos with Steve & Brian are my favorite videos that you’ve ever done. I would add to this conversation:
1. A promissory statement can not last forever - even patents have a timeline.
2. The luster of aged/original collectibles and art is not diminished by additional replicas/reprints. The precedent for this has already been set by other collectible industries with a longer history than MTG. I would go one step further. Reprint the cards with the original artwork and border and include the current year near the artist’s name. This has been done in the comic book industry for years - buy the original 1938 edition of Action Comics #1 for $3,000,000+, or buy a 1980s/‘90s replica/reprint of it for several hundred dollars, or buy the 2017 replica/reprint for under $40. Some reprints even become highly collectable due to the print run, packaging, & items that come with them.
3. “Artificial scarcity” (i.e. intentionally restricting supply of a product) has damaging second-order effects including creation of “deadweight loss” (a measure of lost economic efficiency) and a restriction of future growth:
A company that intentionally limits access to their product, is limiting or eliminating a portion of the customer base that would be using/advertising/selling their products. It encourages excess competition as new companies enter the market in pursuit of excess prices. And it encourages the development of a black market to produce the product at the normal price point. All of these second-order effects are unfolding now due to a sluggish reprint policy & adherence to an antiquated reserved list policy. Competition is beginning to emerge in the form of other hobbies & trading card games. Player-designed cards and proxies are becoming increasingly popular as casual formats outpace competitive ones (casual formats are not beholden to a requirement for official cards). And a large black market for counterfeits continues to develop as prices rise.
Time to move on from the reserved list policy - it’s actually restricting growth of the game.
Agreeing everything until your last sentence. The game also grows without abolishing the RL as you see today
@@itze_kindofmagic Didn’t say that it can’t grow, but that growth is restricted - potential growth going unrealized as those factors place a downforce on growth and siphon away future growth potential.
Third Wave Finance I am not sure about that :)
But it would be a bloodbath for RL cards printed from Revised to Mercadian. It's the simple truth. This argument only addresses ABU, and the majority of cards on the RL don't fit into just those sets. Look at the list of cards removed in 2002. They all got obliterated. I'm not saying I'm on either side, but let's not deliberately omit scenarios in absolute favor of the RL.
Don’t forget WotC has Changed the RL and no one brought any suits.
Vintage already is an online only format and legacy slowly becoming too. The barrier to enter the format is just too much for the new players. Commander has 2 routes to bypass that problem 1) don't run the super expensive card 2) proxy them.
Birds of Paradise is a good example of a card that has a lot of prints and the original prints still hold their value. Sol Ring is another example of that. Sol Ring has a million prints, every year we get a new one, most of them are in commander decks. The card is one of the biggest staples in commander and still the Alpha and Beta versions hold their value.
The main problem isn't about the reserve list as a whole but with dual lands (and very few other cards). These 10 lands are super good in every format they are playable and honestly you get punished for not playing them. For me it's not just the cost to buy them. I don't feel comfortable going to a shop knowing that 1 card alone cost 3 times as much as my phone. Knowing that if something happens to my Underground Sea i have to spend as much as my rent in order to replace it. Having to pay even more attention to my deck and my bag cause i could be robbed by another player, or by a random person in the bass who doesn't know anything about magic and maybe just throw the cards in the next trash can.
Hold their value? Maybe. Birds and Demonic Tutor prices would be much higher if they were never printed after revised...
Do you have any examples of non RL cards that consistently and slowly gain in value over time?
@@jimlenart Absolutely. Do they drop in value directly following a reprint? Nearly every time.
@@benjamincarter6095 I'm agreeing with you. My comment was meant for Kostas
The biggest problem with the promissory estoppel idea is exactly the price stability and strength of ABU/4 horsemen. Corporate civil suits, cost through trial average is $120-150K, just to sue and then not win any money because they have 0 damages or even gained money, not be able to get any kind of injunction because there's no harm suffered in the absence of an injunction, it's just a straight zero gain and flushing $150K down the toilet. Who's going to do it? Prof was right to bring up other changes where no one sued, because the fact we don't want to admit is whales talked to lawyers and lawyers said no it's not worth your time or money.
Also I think people vastly overestimate what the supply would be like. Look at just fetches that have been in print in $3 packs very recently, now you get a 1 in 3 shot at one if you buy an entire box. They made it practically a case hit for what should be a $10 card. If they reprinted moxes it would be a pallet hit.
There’s 0 way that a 150k dollar trial would ever be more than the profits from reprinting reserve list cards
@@finnancahill2644 How? You're not articulating any damages, are you back on just wishful thinking that reprinting original cards will make them go down? If you didn't sue over Tutor or any of the others that came off RL then you know your trial costs aren't worth it.
@@doctordistracto8390 I misread your comment thinking that you were trying to argue that the 150k trial would encourage wizards to not reprint RL cards my bad. I now realize that you meant for a consumer
Also just a reminder that if someone did sue, they'd be going up against HASBRO and their legal team, who would definitely win
Stupid question, perhaps, but is there a statute of limitations (or equivalent) for something like promissory estoppel?
I look at the reserved list the same way I look at comic books.
Action Comics #1 has been reprinted and those reprints are not worth much (especially not when in comparison to the original).
So yes, they should just reprint them. In fact, wouldn't it be cool if they literally came out with a masters set called Masters: The List.
Watched some of professors video. This why I never understood people’s obsession with the reserved list: there are, right now, x amount of ABU black lotuses. If the next expansion, WOC released a black lotus, there are STILL the same exact amounts of ABU black lotuses in existence. Nothing will ever change that.
Well to be honest it wasnt the black lotus reprints that cause the reserved list actually it was a little set called chronicles that angered collector and started the whole law suit which is still in effect to this day
William Cassity yup, another good example. There are tons.
@@dalehewett4323 was made worse with the harmless offering being a reprint of donate which ruined the promo clause for us
I always thought they should reprint everything but the Power 9
Other TCGs reprint things but the originals always hold value, Blue Eyes White Dragon, Charizard
Even Comic Books, the Original #1s hold value and still appreciate.
Also if reprints were made it keeps older pieces from being played as much so they are better conditions this furthering value.
Also I would use the MTGO art for Dual Lands and Border to leave originals have there unique charm.
Great points! Comic reprints mean nothing, its not the OG.
This ^^^^
The power nine should still be reprinted, as they are a necessity for vintage.
Daniel he cherry picked opinions and presented them as facts. Of course ABU cards wouldnt go down in price from reprints; theyre extremely limited printings. Revised cards, like dual lands, would plummet. How much is a mass produced revised or fourth edition birds worth?
If your argument is lower end OG prints would decline, I wouldn't agree. The ORIGINAL printing is always best. Including the original art. As long as the art isn't the same, I see it never declining.
@@vintagemagic kinda sure revised would crash hard. And cards like cradle, Mox diamond, lions eye etc would also crash heavyly, because these are not collectibles right now. They widely played and speculated, but collecting a 300.000 times printed card does not make sense.
Maybe I am wrong, noone knows. Thats why i like testing the remove of some cards from the reserved list.
*IF* they reprinted anything good off then list, they'd give it the Secret Lair: Ultimate treatment and charge market value (i.e. thousands+++) for it.
this entire discussion is missing the whole point. ABU cards are the REAL originals and just as any other collectible (for example 1st printings of books or comics) they'll always hold their value no matter the reprints. most people don't even care for the simple reason they don't own ABU at all. A lot of players instead do care about revised because that's the pillar of their collection, as they're the cheapest version they could get their hands onto to play either legacy or commander. abolishing the reserved list and reprint the duals would destroy their value (just as it's happened with the fetches). this is the POINT this discussion has to revolve around. anything else is bla bla bla
What happens when all these cards become so valuable that they all get put in slabs and locked away in a safe somewhere? Less and less of these older cards are available to play on the table every year. When there are no more left does that mean people just can't play them anymore? That's always been my biggest concern about reserve list cards.
I enjoy these kinds of down to earth real talks. Props!
Reprint everything BUT the power 9! The end.
I own 4x of every dual-land from revised/ unlimited and would not be offended if they were reprinted!
Dont use the same art and never give it a retro border and get rid of the restricted list so we can all enjoy the feeling of playing magic like it was 93
Well let’s put it this way magic is what 25-30 years old there are tons of newer players constantly joining the game but the problem is that some of these players weren’t even alive to buy these cards back in the day so now they are basically locked out of playing older formats because trying to find players willing to sell there old cards for some is impossible basically not to mention how expensive these cards are I mean if it’s 20,000 for a black lotus so you want a play set well your looking at more then a down payment on a house how do you expect your game to grow ???? They should have thought of that when they made the list
Never thought about it really but i totally agree .. even as a power 9/ dual land owner .. id love to see the reprints and open up formats
I always try to buy first print versions of cards. Always have. Always will.
There’s a reason they restricted and then banned the p9 cards and cards like Moat. They were shown to be too powerful for their formats and likely all formats. Duals, on the other hand, are not only fun to play with but are no more powerful than a painland such as Adarkar Wastes or Underground River- they’re just “painless.” I never thought they’d reprint Underworld Dreams, one of my favorites. One thing I’ve noticed with recent cards is that they are often useless crap or they’re so powerful that they’re banned almost immediately. There are so many great cards from the annuls of magic history that would be great in newer formats
I understand your point Daniel and you're right, reserved list is a important point in time in MTG history that secures the special time of the OG sets. I think that no matter what, nothing can change time or any event of the past and those unique moments that were built thanks to the reserved list will stay irreplicable and intact. By abolish reserved list a new period of time will beginning for MTG where new players can discover the legendary treasures from the past. Also let's be real, the value of OG prints will never fall drastically because a reprint, possibly the collector's market will solidify even more.
So what your saying is that these incredibly power cards should only be accessible to those who have either, been around long enough that they got the cards when they came out or, they they have enough money to buy them and be dammed with the rest of us HELL NO.
People need to stop treating mtg as a god damn stock market and more like a trading card game.
@@michaeledwards1644 reprinting them ( like the power 9 ) doesnt mean you wouldve have to reprint them as a common. cards can be made however rare they want and they dont even need to be allowed for standard but just giving players / the community more copies of those cards would be good. it wouldnt hurt the original pieces cards either. im not even playing mtg myself so i dont really care but the reserved list is bs.
Thats what i never got or understood why reprinting a card would change the value of something like those cards...yeah a new print would bring those cards into dec list alot of people couldn't afford under current circumstances but the original printings are just that original printings and those are what holds value the collector value if you must.....the cards on the reserved list should not be allowed to be printed in those frames with those arts Nd that in itself should be what is valuable the card in its original form not a reprint lotus isn't special bc it was printed then its special bc of what it does but the cards aren't not reprinted bc of how strong they are its bc of what cards they are which juss isn't the best way to handle the cards bc then you see the 2nd market absorb those cards and push them way past affordable for everyday players....its one thing to be able to full art foil out your decc to show off your pay grade or investment but being able to play the optimal mana base shouldn't be an enormous paywall where 10 thousand dollars gets you an optimal mana base where the second best mana base would be around 1000 (just using numbers to represent my Point) but litterally in older formats and commander you can play steam vents in place of volcanic island for 1 tenth the price but set yourself bacc enormously in comparison all bc your opponent has more cash or assets then you do......
Yeah exactly plus by having more people getting into older formats like vintage it would definitely make people who want to spice up their decks buy older versions of cards. It happens in commander all the Time
@@zombieslayer3153 yes. Sometimes you just can’t have something. Deal with it and have fun with the many thousands of cards you do have access to.
100% the minute new mtg stops selling,
EVERY card will be reprinted in “retro” packs and sets 100% guaranteed. So, it will happen someday.
Plus all of this is irrelevant because even if they got rid of the list that still dont guarantee they will even reprint the card.
I’d love to play vintage, but the cost says I’m a poor SOB !!! Newer versions would open up MTG to new players like me. And I don’t want to buy knock offs or proxies due not being allow in tournaments!!!
I really think doing away with the reserved list is a good idea. Doesn’t have to be all at once but it will impact Mtg positively in the long run. Some cards would see a short term drop in price but I’m sure most if not all would go up in the long term
The majority of players want to abolish the reserve list. The majority of long-term players support the reserve list. The majority of long term players is probably 5-10 percent of the magic player population, but over the long term, represents a larger share of purchasing power. If the reserved list is abolished, it wont really attract many new players. Of course there will be some immediate, short term gains from the current population of a player base that will be gone in a year anyway. But thats it. If you havnt heard of a black lotus, do you care that you can now get one? This isnt going to attract new players to spend more. However, longer term players would be alienated and their purchasing power would go elsewhere. Im old enough to remember the reserve list and the uproar chronicles created and where it came from. Trust me, the secondary market is very key to magic’s success. If magic was a big box game like monopoly, it wouldnt be anything compared to what it is today. The reserved list helped make magic the force that it is
Interesting Points. I can understand if you were in the Chronicles era, but does that apply today? Would you agree that the landscape has changed? How about the points about BOP and shivan? It hasn't affected older values at all.
Vintage MTG of course ABU prices havnt been affected. However, look at a revised birds of paradise. It has thr same value or a birds printed today, even tho its over 25 years old. Its the RARITY that makes ABU valued, not playabilty. Shivan dragon is worthless today because its not a playable caed.
Vintage MTG also, the fundamental reason for the reserve list is the same today as it was then. This comes up every 2-4 years during bull markets when entitled 16 year olds who peobably wont be playing in 6 months bitch that they cant get everything they want, same way they were pissed their mom got them a jeep cherokee instead of a land rover for their bday.
Just look at comics. Action Comics #1 has been reprinted into the ground by DC and yet an actual first printing in good condition will still fetch a million dollars at auction.
Very interesting analysis of certain points. I am indifferent. Wether they reprint the RL or not is from a financial view not relevant. From a players view it could be interesting although I think it will be mainly a corporate decision. If WotC thinks they could gather more money with reprinting RL cards than losing a certain financial potential customer/investors base they absolutely will.
But they will only do it as last option. It is like money in the bank. And right now they have many other sources to collect money :)
If reprints have different artwork, the original cards will never be affected. I agree the reserve list is not valid anymore and should be ended
I believe they should not reprint the power 9, but dual land should have never been a reserve list card.
Personally i think the only esception is timetwister since, its a cedh staple. They should ban it or reprint it if they will reprint reserve list cards.
OH SHIT SHOTS FIRED
Actually really loved this take because it's become more focused more on the trading aspect then the game. Simple as that, think about how many mechanics they've banned instead of reworking new sets to counter olds. The old art work will always be worth more so repenting them with new art work should be allowed.
We all know that you are a good collector and player, and I appreciate the fact that you took time to think out of the box and consider both sides. Thanks for the great video.
My opinion is for some cards I prefer the old version, because brings me some nostalgia about the game, but other cards I would be just happy with the affordable version. I am just tired for keep my cards inside of a binder because I can’t afford to get the rest of the cards that I want to. Plus play with proxies suck haha. But that’s just my opinion.
Thanks for the video again!
Dan has money in the game. A ton of money in the game. I had some of these cards. I sold them long ago. I want to be able to play with them again. It’s THE BEST form of the game. PERIOD. It won’t harm the value of the real deal. Let us play the game! Imagine if you couldn’t play chess unless you paid $100k? Monopoly? Donkey Kong? PAC-Man? Poker? I mean it’s just stupid. Eventually the counterfeiters will make the ABU cards perfectly and that will lead to real harm in the real cards. Reprinting will stop this from happening. Love the videos and this one was awesome.
So.. if an open market enterprise promises me that his papers will not go down, and they go? I'm liable to claim legal redress?
It is market... you made an investment and took the risk...
the game is likely to actually end in material format some years ahead if that stupid promise is maintained strictly
just print some fu*#ed up artwork for dual lands and P9, so regular people get access to them as GAME TOOLS. Some ultra VIP version with awesome artwork for the sake of rich collectors, perhaps, and the damned A B and U will hold value cause they are just rare material
I'm suppressed the magic community never talks about about the statute of limitations on a promissory stopple case in relation to WOTC changing and modifying the reserved list over time and the community's reactions to those changes. ... ... ... In any event, just like in the comic book community, 1st editions will always be 1st editions and never loose their charm no matter how many times an original is reprinted. ... (Just look at the first ASM #1 or TMNT #1) ... You just had to be a part of the community at that moment in time to snag a copy and appreciate it. But, what makes originals so expensive is that few prints are ever preserved properly. Reprints are crated every so often to meet demand so the legacy can live on. ... ... But, even low volume reprints can get pricy in the secondary market sometimes. ... In any event, with that said, WOTC should abolish the reserve list and reprint vintage sets per demand. The reserve list only serves to boost new set sales (whereas the banned and restricted lists are useful tools to help regulate tournament play). ... The secondary market is loosing out on an opportunity to trade on reserve list card reprints. Also, casual gaming with friends and acquittances is where the real card fun is at. And, the reserve list does not facilitate that. Magic has enough formats these days. It never the reserve list format.
As long as they don’t over produce I would be OK with it. However, WOTC and Hasbro both are money hungry. Look at 2020 and how many “master” series they have put out this year and how many reprints they have produced this year. This pushes the price of cards down. This hurts the collectors who invest in cards. It has to be a balance. Maybe do it once every 10 years or so maybe
You can’t replicate AUB. Those are works of art at this point and they will always always have value to collectors and players of magic with expendable income. Without some form of reprints on the dual lands Legacy and vintage formats are completely inaccessible to most and that will eventually kill the value of those reserved list cards. For instance, First edition books don’t lose value when they are reprinted they go up up and up until they stop printing it and no one reads it anymore and then the book fades into obscurity then no one cares about the first edition book which ultimately kills the value. Wizards could absolutely sell new printings of the reserved list straight to the players for 100 a piece and people would be alright I’m cool with this. I would be absolutely ecstatic for an option like this 50-100 bucks for secret lair dual lands! That is the right and honorable thing to do.
Magic is a Game first and foremost, before anything else. A game that is meant to be played by as many people as possible. People who invest in it to turn profit or treat it like a stock market really piss me off. Go invest in something else.
I don't care if people want to collect cards if they're just doing it for the art or something, I like to collect Chandra, and I like it when I don't have to spend 20 bucks to get the new Chandra. But if people are collecting to turn a profit down the road, ya, that annoys me.
Just let me put dual lands in all my multi-colored decks without it costing me an arm and leg!
As a student of the sheet metal trade the use of "patina" made me wonder if it was being used right. As its basically rust...
The secondary definition works though.
@@robmitchell3039 yeah i had to look it up as the only place i knew it from was copper rust. its an odd word to use for sure tho.
The profs video was a blatant lie. Yours was better until the closing minutes. Supply and demand are very simple fundamentals of economics. If the supply increases, it will put downwards pressure on market prices. Will the old school cards be worth more than the new printings? Absolutely. Will the old school printings be worth less than they otherwise would have been if there were no new printings? Absolutely. Will most of the whales wizards is trying so hard to get to buy more premium products both stop buying magic cards and file a class action suit? Absolutely. When you have enough value in old school cards to buy multiple houses, that promise to not reprint takes on a whole new meaning.
Reserved list will be reprinted sooner or later. Cost of any litigation will be greatly outweighed by the financial and social benefit of reprinting it. Wizards should just sue Alibaba for facilitating the sale of counterfeit cards, since the market is already flooded with near-perfect reserved list proxies, and use that money as part of a legal defense fund to fight the "investors" who would sue them. I'd also like to see anyone in the pro-reserved list faction that pushes a lawsuit to be made a pariah in the community. The minority of them that actually play, at least.
maybe papa hasbro and wizards will get together with some of the big investors from the original time frame they made the reserve list and discuss with them what they think...maybe give them a 5% cut of all sales spread out amongst the biggest players in the reserve list cards...could you imagine the prices papa hasbro could get for these specialized prodects with reserve list reprints? lmao...your first ever $500 booster box right out the gates...maybe even a grand....haahahahaah and people would pay it...lmao
In the case of cards like Shivan Dragon etc.... That is a horrible example Shivan dragon has almost zero utility in any format except vintage hence reprinting in standard and starter decks has no affect on the original art. Reprint a card with true utility from the reserved list like Lions eye diamond or revised dual lands and prices will look like wasteland, mirage tutors , demonic tutor etc... It would be nice to revisit this discussion.
if rosewater isn't able to get rid of the RL that means wotc/hasbro legal is pushing back telling the company to not go there... use a black marker and a couple basics to make some proxies or just make a few more of those videos asking for a dollar prof. same s... different day
Remove rosewater. And magic will automatically be good the set after
Sorry but reserve list is killing legacy. Nobody even plays it anymore. Everyone I know has takin there’s apart cause only like three people playing. I get the value but it’s killing certain aspects. Reprint but in low quality’s.
its absolutely absurd the reserve list is not printed...it being reprinted is going to have absolutely zero bearing on the value of the original cards...id venture to say alot of people dont buy the alpha, beta and older cards to actually play them...yet for the collectibility.....id venture to say alot of the people who play that vintage or legacy or use cards on the reserve list use proxies anyway instead of taking the chance of damaging their high dollar cards....look at sports cards and comic reprints.....very rarely if ever are they worth more than the original....there are always people out there in all walks of collectibles that want the originals...period....and i agree with the professor too...if anything if they reprint the reserve list it will actually drive the demand of the originals higher....it sure would be awesome to see what a new black lotus would look like.
why would a company be obligated to keep a secondary market they have no part in as a limiter there business plan. that mean that they cant make money because some guy wants to make money instead. that is literally the opposite of a capitalist society that the us was based on. it is there product not the collectors, they should have no bearing on a company they have no stake in.
I'm for abolishing the list since people need the cards to play old formats. They either need to allow proxies for tournaments or reprint the playable cards and they will see profits roll in on tournaments left and right
I think that reserved list gate keeps if its a card that can see play in a wide variety of decks.
Reprints never hurt the comic book collecting market.
money is evil and games shouldn't have game pieces, cards in this case, that cost exorbitant amounts of money
So hopefully lots of people see this for two major reasons;
1. WOTC has legally stated they have no ties to the secondary market, they have even abolished hard MSRP for this exact reason
2. If WOTC has no ties to the secondary market the promissory estoppel no longer applies as the value of the reserved list cards cannot be tracked because the "value" they hold is based on another company and not what WOTC has stated.
Just incase people TRULY were wondering the REAL hard truth (outside the fact that price drops would kill investors, but that is why the stock market exists, stop investing in a closed group market when the stock market exists for a reason) is that WOTC has no say in costs or values anymore. They could print a million of a card worth 100$ and you cannot hold the secondary market price as a means to attack the primary market, it would hurt sellers like TCGplayer and other game stores because THEY abdicate the prices, along with other players on ebay.OIn top of that those who own the majority of the reprinted cards would STILL hold market power because there would be a "flood" but those who own the cards can mass buy those SAME CARDS, hold prices where they are, wait for them to stabilize and then have MORE copies of the card so when it rises they can sell more frequently.
TLDR; WOTC has put themselves in a position where they have nothing to fear, but investors (like modern day big wigs who help "fuel" companies) have a serious say so in what WOTC does because money makes money.
ALSO the easiest fix to the problem is to allow specially tournament legal ONLY versions of cards. "Pay 'x' dollars to enter a vintage tournament, we have "tournament only" copies of cards for you to make your deck with for 1$ a piece. Once the games are over you have to return them to play in future tournaments. Bam, easy, no more million dollar decks.... seriously WOTC that wouldnt proc the lawsuits you may or may not be afraid of AND new players would get to play
If legacy decks were as affordable as people seem to want them to be. Standard sets would be worth pennies.
Buying all the wheel of fortunes
The old school cards will always retain their price.... investors need to stop bitching it’s a game..
Thank you for saying this! It really feels like WotC is way too worried by 1% of its players when there is a HUGE amount of people that would buy to hell and back a remaster. People were buying VIP packs by the case at my local shop, I can't imagine what they'd do to a remaster for legacy and vintage products.
They are worried about getting sued it’s not likely but they don’t see why they should take the risk
@@peewee130946 Promissory estoppel exists, but wotc would only be liable for the instantaneous drop of value not any future growth. Reserve list is also not a binding contract since there is no consideration. WotC could also offer a voluntary buyback program at current market rates to avoid this as well. I doubt many people would actually want resell any high end p9, and wotc could probably resell it for a profit. WotC should only remaster the actually playable cards as well to limit this. Many RL cards have no value to players if reprinted.
but in all honesty i could care less, i dont have any stake in it..i just buy proxies.
What if instead of reprinting the reserved list, Hasbro reprinted and only made a slight tweak? Such as a version of black lotus that added 4 mana of any color. Or reprint a card with the same ability, but a new name and picture. Such as reprint dual lands that do the same thing, but give them new names and new pictures----similar to that barbary apes is essentially a reprint with a new name and picture for grizzly bears. Would this work? Or is it a bad idea?
They can’t be functionally the same cards as reserved list cards.
One other thing: if Wizards did reprint all the old cards and everybody and their grandmother started playing Vintage and Legacy then the current inferior formats like Standard and Pioneer would be straight out dead. Wizards isn’t going to do that.
Wouldn't that assume that they'd reprint, that everyone would play it, and that nobody would play those other formats (nor are capable of playing many formats)?
That seems like a lot of assumptions to go off of.
As an OG Magic player, I sincerely want Wizards to give the next generations the joy of playing with and owning power nine cards and dual lands. These old Magic players will eventually DIE, and so will the game, if Eizards don't give people what make Magic desirable in the first place. Dual lands didn't go up from $15 until 2005 when a certain store that committed a million dollars insurance scam and brought out dual lands and jacked up the price of the cards and resell at hundreds of dollars per dual land. Artificial demand that suckered people to believe the price value is real.
vintage and legacy are degenerate trash formats so I don't care anyways
I think the price of REVISED Dual lands would drop and level out lower than the current price. Currently most revised rares are about 1/100 to 1/200 the price of the beta counterpart. Revised dual lands are about 1/10 the price of the beta counterparts. I think revised dual lands would drift closer to 1/50 to 1/70 the price of the beta counterparts. This is because revised doesn't carry the same esteem that the original ABU printings do, they also do not have black borders, which is a big deal to a lot of people. The demand for revised dual lands almost entirely comes from them being the most cheap option for dual lands. If you reprint the dual lands, then this demand would shift to the new, cheaper versions. So a large part of the demand driving the price of revised dual lands would be gone. I think you can see this in a lot of the reprints you see today. For the majority of just regular reprints (not showcase, masterpiece, special editions, etc) the value of the old card is like 0-5% greater than the reprinted versions. For cards where most of the demand comes from game play usage, the price is the price regardless of the "version" of the card. At least until you get into special/original printings, and revised has never really fell into that category.
Some cards would be hurt. But honestly, if you are "investing in cards" then guess what some times the value goes down. I fortunately haven't had to buy into dual lands at the current ridiculous prices... although I could always use some more. I don't care if my cards go down a little bit, or I lose some value they have gained over the years, in general I would still fill like if I ever wanted/needed to get out of the hobby I could at a fairly decent rate. But even without that, I mostly collect the cards because I want them, I want to make certain decks, I just like having them. I never buy cards because of the financial gain I may get...ever. When I sell cards I usually only try to recoup what I paid for the card.
I am fine with them reprinting dual lands, but I do believe they would drive the price of revised ones down.
Anyone who thinks Revised duals wouldn't drop considerably is delusional.
At least, it would let players have an option to get those cards.
I agree 100%. Revised duals would go down. There was so much more printed in Revised, not really collector worthy. All collectors want the rookie card or maybe second print, but 4th? I dont think so.
Reprint the reserve list. Wizards are to blame it’s not hasbro.
Look at wasteland when it got reprinted it never came back up
My opinion is if WOTC reprinted reserved list cards but guaranteed the art and border of those cards stays reserved list, the reprints would not change that much in value. For the health of the game though a lot of those cards need reprints especially the OG dual lands. Now if investors like yourself and Rudy wouldn’t horde copies the prices wouldn’t be as high and reprints wouldn’t be as necessary.
Hoard* yeah it’s always super funny to see elitist gatekeepers like this guy talk about issues with the game that they personally created or exacerbate. Genuinely delusional, good comedy
that's not true the value would crash simply because the demand is for being able to play with the cards.
I wouldn't care even though I own dual lands
My thing against the birds of paradise argument comes down to economics. Which is one of the biggest shifters is news or information changing. It’s not about birds original not going down it’s the fact that most players also know dual lands aren’t getting reprinted. It’s that promise that also has the value high I feel like and adds to the prices as well where as other non reserved list cards might retain old value but they don’t have that idea of not ever being reprinted behind them.
You can see in his greedy eyes that the only thing he cares about is his investment. i dont even judge him, its completly understandable that no one wants to lose money but PLEASE dont come to us with your "History" blabla because its only your money you truly care about.
That's my issue with collectors and supporters of the RL. They don't care about people being able afford game pieces, they don't care about the health of certain formats, they don't care about anything except the monetary value of the cards. It's an incredibly selfish viewpoint to have in regards to what is supposed to be a playing card game first.
@@dylanfarley8136 i could not agree more with you man.
The revised dual lands would crash. The prof notice only used Abu to prove his point but didn't mention revised. Revised birds and dragon are not expensive and have not held huge value. Also, look at city of brass arabian which is played in tons of formats vs bazaar. Do you really think bazaar would keep its value when city is way less.
look at things like double masters box topper foil force of will, it's 4x more expensive than Alliances. Imagine how much more dual lands would fetch at this kind of level inside new VIP products.
Good point!!!
Also think of how much force of will would be worth had it not been for its subsequent reprints. If you look at the list of cards removed in 2002, they all tanked and flat lined. They're perfect examples of my point. Sol ring, Regrowth, Sinkhole, would all be worth way more, but have been printed into the ground since their removal. This argument has glaring (deliberate) omissions. Just sayin'.
@@ryanthompson4770 those are all commons/uncommons removed. Demonic Tutor is still a premium cost today regardless of printing
@@technole rarity doesn't make a difference. The cards that were removed tanked compared to what they would be had they been left there. And as another point, Demonic Tutor tanked to 30 bucks in Revised. All because of reprints. Proves the point again. Newer flashier versions destroyed Revised edition. Revised dual lands would see a 60 to 70 percent drop if new flashier versions were printed. So would all of the other cards printed from Revised to Mercadian.
@@ryanthompson4770 rarity makes all the difference because U/C cards are printed in much higher numbers than rare, that cannot be disputed. Revised would tank in-general because who would want white border dual lands over full art foil black borders.
The real reason wotc don’t want to reprint the reserved list, is it would kill standard. No one would bother buying new sets and just play vintage magic. Wotc would lose all their staff and just print vintage cards. Wotc need to justify their employment and card stores need to justify having cards, they do that through revenue in standard sets. If the reserved list was abolished which it should be, in a business standpoint it would be the beginning of the end for expansions. That would be a good thing too because they can finally take their time when releasing a expansion.
By the way, I know the history means a lot to the older players, but wotc don’t give a damn about the history, look at how they treated the story and the artwork and some artists in MTG. If wotc don’t respect the history and have hissy fits over it, why should I respect it?
Well certain cards are way too strong for standard. But as the PROF mentioned it would be in a masters set or something that is catered for Legacy or older players. Commander players clearly also have an appetite to have the older cards too.
@@vintagemagic Have you seen how much more product has come out this year compared to 2019 or 2018? WOTC employees have to bring their case forward to Hasbro on why they should have six figure plus salaries. This is achieved through, pumping out new products. A masters set is not a new product, excluding modern horizons (which is a supplementary). As of this year over any year they have more product for each different type of player in Magic's history and its not slowing down, it's going to increase, just with 2021 having no new core set.
Yea everyone likes the older cards and enjoys playing with them, but the only way I see the reserved list being abolished is hypothetically speaking would be, Magic goes in the red and they need to abolish RL to make up for sales. This could happen if everyone didn't buy MTG cards, but you can't lead cats to a well; so to speak.
My opinion on this thing is if Wizards reprint the Dual Lands, it would be in a masters set or something like that.
If they made a full-art foil Black Lotus reprint, how many do you think you'd have to trade for a lightly played unlimited version? 10? 20? 50? I'm pretty sure the price of the originals wouldn't budge much if all. The revised duals would probably take a decent hit though similar to how the original fetches did.
personally I think The answer is to print new versions of old cards like snow covered dual lands. wizards should keep their word it creates trust, especially in these trying times of ZERO R&D . Imagine if force of will or Jace the mind sculptor hadn't been reprinted they would be 400-500 easy in today's markets.
I do want to point out there is a huge population of magic collectors who don't even play the game they just love the art and love to complete sets. they also tend to drop crazy money on new product when its released. . Magic means different things to different people and I think all sides need to be represented fairly.
I think what they should do is print functionally similar cards that are unable to be used with the older version of the card. Would allow for the functionality of expensive cards to be preserved for eternal formats like Commander, while preserving the value of the old ones.
Mox Prism
0
If this would enter the battlefield, discard a card from your hand or sacrifice this.
T: Add one mana of any color
Time-locked - Mox Diamond (Play this card only in a deck that does not include the specified card)
I think the Hystory didn't change if you eliminate the reserved list.
If Wizards would reprint old cards it could print them in the new frame, so I think the old cards will remain the same prices (maybe some could go up in cost after a reprint, because they are the original ones).
Most of the cards on the reserved list haven't a real economic value, because a part for the collection part, they have no play.
So I think the problem could be overrun simply doing what it was already done in the past: reprint specific cards of the reserved list without eliminating it.
Obviously, I think cards like dual lands, Gaea's Cradle and P9 (with a new look) should be the first on the reprint intention, because I think Wizards should reprint first what is required to play in different formats.
Thanks for the video! Good analyze. It's unfortunate new players cannot really get into competitive vintage without using what amounts to a car down payment. Other competitive games like chess or basketball don't require an entry fee.
I think the older cards may hold some value. However if they reprinted them. The increase in there value may slow. For instance you wouldn't see a 200% increase in the RL cards anymore. Maybe they'd only rise a few % a year. Which would impact investors at the end of the day 🤷♂️
1969 gt 500 shelby cobra vs new school mustang. The new mustang's don't devalue the classic ones but allow new drivers the chance to be in something close to that old look without having to have a million dollars.
The original cards won't lose scarcity fir to me printings. Yes change the art but open it back up to the new players and drive interest.
i also think this...the big players in the mtg finance and the big time investors would have a great oppurtunity to strengthen their position if the reserve list was abolished...this is how....there will be some people who actually paid the big prices for the bazaar of baghdads like you stated....so they will bring their originals to market for the sharks to gobble up and strengthen their positions while they go out and get 4 of the newer reprints for a cheaper price and buy some doritios and mountain dew and a couple hookers with the money they saves...so this would actually give the whales an oppurtunity to corner the market that much more.
tbh if you support the idea of the reserved list sticking around your spitting in the face of any new player because your telling them hey you can't play legacy or vintage because you dont have the money to buy ceartin cards and sure your losing history but on the other side your gate keeping who can play the game
There is no luster in being the last one in your town alone with a deck not able to play because everybody else was prices out of the hobby. Making car comparison like you did is not working. Being the only one in town with a Ferrari bring luster
So an honest question for anyone who can answer. What would happen if someone bought out wizards of the coast and magic the gathering and changed to company name? Would they be able to reprint the reserves list since it’s no longer the same company and the new company has made no legal promise about the reserve list?
Referencing your video with Brain Weissman and Steven Menendian, I believe that the reserve list is absolutely a major factor in the price of reserve list cards. One of the main reasons people are willing to invest such large amounts of money into these cards is the knowledge that they will not be reprinted and therefore maintain their value. Simple supply and demand principles. Why are the CE/ICE cards rising in value so much? The reason that it matters what wizards does today is because people still play magic and the fact is that up till this point, they have created an inferior product (reprints) to the originals. The reason they haven’t affected the prices of the old cards, is that the artwork was total shit. I believe all that has now changed with the printing of VIP Double Masters.. for the first time you have reprints of cards painted by OG artists who have actually made better artwork for cards such as Force of Will, the new tron lands, Mox Opal, Brainstorm and BlightSteel Colossus which in my opinion are preferable to the original artwork. To use Menendian’s example of the alpha black lotus, if you have an artists like Mark Tedin, Ron Spencer or any other of the original artists paint a borderless showcase black lotus that was cooler than the original you better believe that many wouldn’t care about the original black lotus. They want to play the game with the coolest looking version. You can’t forget that magic is a game and I don’t think that it can be directly compared to baseball cards that don’t have a game mechanic behind them.
If reprinting a Black Lotus diminishes the luster of seeing original printings they I say let it die.
Well that's justified
@@vintagemagic Thank you for the response. The reserved list is a difficult topic for some and I know not everyone can or will agree.
At the end of the day people will still want the original artwork of cards for collector purposes! People will want the reprints for playability. Reprint this! Make the game fun again or let new players experience old magic again and not spend thousands on a deck. Theres so many dream decks or ideas people can have and cant use their creativity the game was meant for to build any deck you want. Most people dont want to spend thousands on a deck
Ya totally thought you were going to be against. Seeing a person of your caliber in the collectors world have this perspective is a big deal. One thing I’d like to add is, collectors, some not all, are going to add these newly printed cards to there collection anyways. Which increases there collection value just from having the card. So it seems to me to be a win win.
The same can be achieved with proxies. Indirectly it will cause people to put less money into reserve list cards because the money can only be spend once and it will lead to lower prices.
I like your commentary, especially because you don’t hold a reactionary POV, like some of your buddies.
Nobody can play dredge because Rudy owns most of the Bazaars, LOL!
just make a massive reprint of blank legal tournment reserved list cards. no artwork, no frame, just the oracle text and necessary stuff. serves the mechanical purpose of the game w/o hurting AT ALL collection
Can't wait for the response to the response 🙃
Won't happen im not approved.
@@vintagemagic wizards is mad you get dough
when it comes to the history of opening the packs, the reserve list just gate keeps new players from experiencing the excitement of opening old school cards like a black lotus. The current experience of opening a black lotus is more about opening big money like the actual lottery rather than nostalgia. i know that the same can be said about any packs but old school packs w/ reserve list cards in them are vegas in a pack sine i can't open 1 of those cards and go out and play with them like i can with aether revolt or kaladesh.
They won't reprint dual lands. It restricts game design. No other mana producing land would be desired.
Ah interesting. But that would be only for Eternal formats...like a masters set
@@vintagemagic Yes, only if they were reprinted to exclusively be in Eternal formats, but I get the impression that most people wanting them reprinted are looking for them to be played beyond Eternal.
I think the EDH format would still make other mana producing lands sought after since you can only run one of each, especially since EDH becomes more popular every year it seems. I wasn’t aware people legitimately wanted the dual lands for anything other than eternal formats.
If they reprinted dual lands the prices of white bordered unl and rev would tank. I think alfa and beta would fall like 10% and later climbed back but the white bordered ones would cost maybe 2 times than the reprint - so lets say the price of reprinted undergrpund sea was $50 the rev wouldnt cost more than $100