You know I love you guys, but this title is very disappointing. You all are different than every other Thrones/Dragon TH-camrs. I don’t think your fans care about Jon Snow. You all know who we want videos about.
I think your next video should be what if ballon had a brain cell and sided with robb because no ironborn attack on the North means no sacking of winterfell, which is the main reason cat set Jaime free so that she could at least get Sansa and Arya back, this means no Karstark forces leavening and if Jaime isn’t free he can’t help roose communicate with Tywin which means no red wedding but with a even stronger north and a not totally brain dead ironislands
If Jon doesn't join the nights watch, the red wedding doesn't happen. He'd go with Robb and be legitimized on the spot in front of everyone as Robb's heir. The only reason Roose Bolton was willing to betray Robb is because Bran and Rickon were presumed dead and Jon was just a bastard at Castle Black. With no legitimate heir, the risk was worth the reward. With all 3 being confirmed alive at this point and Jon already legitimized, there would be way too much risk involved with betraying Robb. I also don't think Robb betrays his vow to the Frays if Jon is around. If Robb did that with Jon around, Jon would lose all respect for him and I feel like that's too important to him.
@@nont18411 Uhmm Arya? And Brann und Rickon (well he is really young, so he may not count) liked him as well. The only sibling Jon did not get along with was Sansa.
@@JohnFreyholtz-ii8ju Yeah this is my thought, OR when he was injured, Jon would have stayed by his side so he basically would have c-blocked Robb and Jeyne 🤣
the only difference is that Sam is actually bullied... i mean socially corrected by Ser Allister and becomes a SAVAGE strong-fat warrior, a true Tarly.
I'd imagine Catlyn would try to kick him out only for Robb to go "Mother be a good souther woman and STFU I'M the acting lord of Winterfell now. And I say MY BROTHER can stay in HIS HOME." but ot course in a lot nicer tone then Catlyn deserves.
I feel like if Ayra was there she would stick up for him too, and Theon might want to but can't because of his situation. I feel more strongly about the former though.
Why would she not deserve respect. She's only trying to protect her family from the literal bastard. Someone who could be used weather willingly or not to threaten the position of her legitimate children.
@@leepreston9637bastards can't inherit unless they are legitimized by the king and literally every other legitimate child(including the women) are dead, irl the only time I've ever heard of a bastard inheriting over a legitimate child was in portugal when the king died, all his legitimate sons were dead, his daughter(and heir) was married to the king of spain and wanted to have portugal annexed by her husband, and the only other legitimate candidate was the dead kings brother who supported his neice anyway, so the portuguese aristocracy rose up and made the old kings bastard son king rather than be annexed by a spain
Eh tbh she doesn't get a say,Robb loves Jon more than anyone and he's king. Also,I'm pretty sure the northern lords would like him out the gate regardless if he's a bastard or not as he is a Stark by blood and that's all that matters to them.
@Spadzz98 quad squad of Ghost, Grey Wind, Jon, and Robb cutting down lannisters would've impressed the northern lord and given Jon the respect he deserves and backed Robb naming him heir
In this timeline, Sam Tarley gets frisky with both Gilly and Ygritte, solos the siege of Castle Black (not sure from which side), and kills the show version of the night king
lmao I wish that would happened be a badass but mostly likely without Jon being there to protect him and make him a better man, Sam would most likely get killed much early in the season either by other man or he kill himself cause he got tired of get bully
How would Jon know that Ned wanted to support Stannis? Ned's letters never made it out of Kingslanding, and nobody knows why he was captured and why he was really killed.
If Jon didn’t went to the Wall then everyone should get really comfortable with twenty feet of snow, endless darkness, cold winds that can freeze men whole, and the end to all civilizations. Then the White Walkers and the undead show up months later.
@@rodgerskuchikiri7650I don’t think it’s about him being the one to stop them. Jon was the one to go to hardhome and experience first hand the white walkers and night king. Which gave him the initiative to spread the word that the dead were coming and prepare. Without Jon Westeros is unaware of the dead army. Dani’s focus is on Cersei and while they are battling for the iron throne the night king surprises them and game over.
@@amakavelist565 I do think they will after all aegon the conqueror knew at some point whatever was beyond the wall would come. Which is why he wanted the 7 kingdoms united. I’m sure the night king would’ve had a way to get passed the wall. It was just luck that a dragon showed up which would lead him to take control over later.
If the Ironborn didn’t take Winterfell, and Bran and Rickon aren’t believed to be dead, Cat doesn’t release Jamie, so Lord Karstark doesn’t go mad and kill the Lannister prisoners, so Robb doesn’t behead him leading to the Karstark forces deserting. Robb only went back to the Frey’s to replace the manpower of the Karstark’s so in this scenario the Red Wedding likely doesn’t take place
@SSJ2DN if bran and rickon are "dead". Sansa married to tyrion. Arya propably in kingslanding. Just like in canon robb legitimises jon (propably). Jon is the heir to the north. He marries the frey girl.
@@vigokarnebeek9856 I still see Walder bristling at the idea of a newly legitimized bastard being given as a 'my bad' for breaking a marriage betrothal by knocking up some other woman. Robb is young, if he lives he will have kids and heirs and Frey knows that better than most actually lol.
If was Jon I would have gone to White Harbor and worked for Wyman Manderly. Jon may be a bastard but he grew up educated and trained like a Lord. Manderly has a decent sized army and City watch that could use a Commander. Jon has options.
@@rodgerskuchikiri7650 there's plenty of jobs in the realm for a person highly educated and skilled at fighting. Those jobs don't make for the most interesting stories, but still.
@@Guinnessdrnkr1234My point exactly dude. Being a bastard in this world is akin to being an incel. You don’t get play for shit and you get dragged for it. He literally couldn’t climb higher than he was in winterfell unless he went to the wall where the slate is clean.
14:04 I think if Jon stays with Robb, doesn't go to the Iron Islands, then he will talk Robb out of betraying the Frey's. Jon is like Ned 2.0, so honorable to a fault, which will make him value the deal Catelyn made.
For all that season 6-8 ruined my boy (R+L≠J), he is Ned’s son in more ways than one. With Robb marching to free their father and his favorite sister in peril (Arya), you can bet he marches with The North. He’s definitely keeping Robb on the straight and narrow since he’s even more concerned about honor for obvious reasons. Hell Robb would probably use his newfound kingship to legitimize his half-brother, which would be pretty useful in securing the Karstarks allegiance once Catelyn goes full Karen.
Major issue you guys don’t consider is red wedding doesn’t happen with Winterfell not captured, catelyn’s father doesn’t die . Only reason red wedding happen is because Rob marched backwards
The show kind of made the Starks more rustic than they where in the books. House Stark in the novels where not as wealthy as the Lannister's but they where a lot wealthier than the show. First lets look at what they wear in the books which is nothing like there costumes in the show. Side note Lord Rickard owned Steel armour and gold spurs. When Arya is packing to go to Kings Landing she files where chest with silk and Sansa is fond of blue silk. In Kings Landing Eddard looked nothing like what he did in the show, he always wore what he called his council silk. Ned also commissions a new uniform for his guards. Long cloaks of heavy grey wool decorated with white satin borders. Their cloaks are pinned with hands of beaten silver representing there Lords office as hand of the King. When he was on the Iron Throne Ned wore a white double embosomed with a grey dire wolf. In Winterfell at the feast welcoming the King and Royal Family they all dressed grandly, including Benjen Stark. There are high born brothers in the Nights Witch from the north and south and I have never seen one dressed as well as Benjen at that feast, not even Lord Commander Mormont himself. He wears rich black velvet high black leather boots. His wide belt has a silver buckle and very heavy silver chain. When Bran is attacked by Wildlings he is attacked for what he is wearing and he is second legitimate son and he is wearing a wolfs head broch of silver and jet. Jet is a gemstone and this is not a formal event this is just outriding in the woods. Jon wears fine blacks and mole skin gloves which would not be cheap. At Winterfell harvest feast Bran is dressed quote, as befits a Prince and Robb wears a bronze crown and Catelyn describes her sons royal Kingly attire as quote magnificent. Also Theon Greyjoy dressed very well when he was living with Stark in silk and Gold and Balon fears the Starks have made him soft. I doubt Greyjoy money was funding Theon's extravagant lifestyle. When he takes Winterfell he crowns himself Prince of Winterfell and orders and orders a new crown forged with black diamonds and chunks of gold. Where did he get the gold and diamonds if not from Winterfell's plundered treasury. And before Winterfell Bran and Luwin gave the Manderley's gold and build a royal fleet and mint coins. At the Winterfell harvest feast Now lets look at Winterfell it is much bigger and much grander than in the show this is a Castle built of granite which is an opulent martial. Winterfell is a huge castle complex spanning several acres and encircled by two massive granite walls. Remember the Castle is built over natural hot springs and as the wiki explains. The water is piped through walls and chambers to heat them, making Winterfell more comfortable than other castles during the harsh northern winters. Also from the wiki Inside the walls, the complex is composed of dozens of courtyards and small open spaces. Weapons training and practice take place in those yards. The inner ward is a second, much older open space in the castle where archery practice takes place. It is located next to the broken tower. Inside Winterfell stands the inner castle, which contains the Great Keep and the Great Hall. Winterfell's towers and halls have diamond-shaped window panes.[6] Inner Castle The Great Keep is the innermost castle and stronghold of the castle complex. It was built over natural hot springs to keep it warm.[5] The Great Keep contains bedchambers for House Stark[5] as well as the solar of Lord Eddard Stark.[7] The building is connected to the armory by a covered bridge.[8] From a window on the covered bridge, one can see the entire yard.[9] Beneath the Great Keep are cellars with narrow windows.[10] The Great Hall is used for receiving guests and the place where the household dines together, including the Lord of Winterfell. It is made of grey stone[11] and has wide doors made of oak and iron,[12] which opens to the castle yard, and a rear exit leads to a dimly-lit gallery.[12] Inside it can hold eight long rows of trestle tables, four to each side of the central aisle,[12] and the hall can seat five hundred people.[13] There is a raised platform for noble guests, and the walls are covered with banners.[11] The hall contains the high seat of the old Kings in the North. The seat's cold stone has been polished by the many lords who have sat upon it, and its massive arms are decorated with the carved heads of snarling direwolves.[14][15] The small sept was built for Lady Catelyn Tully, a southron, by her husband, Lord Eddard.[16] Courtyard and Other Buildings The First Keep, a squat and round drum tower, is the oldest surviving part of the castle but is no longer in use. Around it lies a lichyard where the Kings of Winter would bury their loyal servants. The keep has gargoyles atop it.[17][6] Maester Kennet determined it was built after the Andals arrived.[18] The broken tower, also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over 140 years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one rebuilt it.[19][20] It stands behind the old inner ward. Crows nest atop the broken tower.[19] The ancient godswood of Winterfell has stood untouched for ten thousand years, with three acres of old packed earth and close-together trees creating a dense canopy, which the castle was built around. At the center of the grove stands an ancient weirwood with a face carved into it, standing over a pool of black water.[16] Across the godswood from the heart tree, beneath the windows of the Guest House, an underground hot spring feeds three small pools, with a moss-covered wall looming above them. The godswood is enclosed by walls, and is accessed by a main iron gate, or smaller wooden ones. The Glass Gardens[21] is a greenhouse heated by the hot springs, which turn it into a place of moist warmth.[5] It is used to grow fruits, vegetables, and flowers.[9][22] The garden has green and yellow glass panes[10] locked in frames.[8] The crypt of Winterfell, located near the First Keep, is where members of House Stark are buried. The underground crypts are long and narrow, with pillars moving two by two along its length. Between pillars stand the sepulchers of the Starks of Winterfell, the likenesses of the dead seated on thrones, with iron swords set before them to keep the restless spirits from wandering, and snarling direwolves at their feet. The crypts are deep under the earth, cavernous and bigger than the complex above ground. They are accessed by a twisting stone stair and a huge ironwood door that lies at a slant to the floor. The stair continues below to older levels where the most ancient Kings in the North are entombed.[23][17][10] The Bell Tower is connected to the rookery by a bridge. The bridge is covered and runs from the fourth floor of the tower to the second floor of the rookery.[6][8] The maester's turret is below the rookery.[24] The Library Tower houses the library at Winterfell. A stonework staircase winds about its exterior.[8] The Guards Hall is in line with the Bell Tower, and further back, the First Keep.[6] Winterfell has undercrofts and cellars.[25] The castle also has dungeons,[25] including tower cells.[26] Walls Winterfell is a huge castle complex spanning several acres, defended by two massive walls of grey granite with a wide moat between them.[4] The outer wall is eighty feet high, while the inner is one hundred feet high.[4] There are guard turrets on the outer wall and more than thirty watch turrets on the crenelated inner walls. The great main gates[7] have a gatehouse made of two huge crenelated bulwarks which flank the arched gate[8] and a drawbridge that opens into the market square of the winter town.[27][28] There is a narrow tunnel inside of the inner wall stretching halfway around the castle, allowing travel from the south gate all the way to the north gate without interruption.[19] The Hunter's Gate is close to the kennels and the kitchens. It opens directly onto open fields and the wolfswood, so people can come and go without having to cross through the winter town. It is favored by hunting parties.[4] The East Gate[10] or east gate[29] leads to the kingsroad.[10] The Kingsroad Gate[7] may be another name for the same gate. The Battlements Gate is a small arched postern in the inner wall. It crosses the moat between the walls but does not have a passageway through the outer wall.[7]# When Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch he considers building a glass building but thinks it will be costly and for such fine glass he would need to look Myr and by the freedom of a few glass makers. We know Sansa loves lemon cakes and lemon trees do not grow naturally in the north importing lemon seeds to Winterfell from the reach or Doren would not be cheap. My guess would be the seeds came form Doren as one need only sail up the narrow sea than the up the White Knife. Finally Maester Luwin has his own turret and mentions having servents of his own. The Starks top servants have servants Not as wealthy as the Lannister but it clear Ned and Robb after him where unlike in the show 2 of the wealthiest man in the world.
Yes, everything is smaller and more provincial in the show. The Seven Kingdoms are each large polities themselves, the Lords Paramount are Kings in all but name.
I think it’s more likely that rob would send John to the storm lands to treat with renly and stannis meaning little finger wouldn’t make a deal with Cat to let Jamie go
I think if Jon is in Robb’s council, Theon doesn’t get picked to go to negotiate with Balon. Jon does not like or trust Theon, and Robb is much closer to Jon than he is to Theon, so I’d imagine that if both Jon and Cat are against it Robb would relent.
Robb wanted a navy to attack lannisport. He needed the greyjoy fleet because manderlys fleet was on the opposite end of Westeros and would have to sail all the way around. I think hed send theon whether jon was there or not. Dont forget, Catelyn told him not to send theon too and robb did it anyway. To be honest, I dont know that jon wouldve been able to sway robb on a different course since we see catelyn trying plenty up until the red wedding. Who knows. In a second read through it became glaringly apparent how stupid robb and his mother really were, and that their cause seemed to be doomed.once tywin started writing letters. Jon wouldnt have changed the outcome, he woulda just died.alongside his brother.
And don't say it's just a joke I am extremely homphobic and will not see the one true heir to the iron throne be insulted (Robb can be insulted as he betrayed Walder the gracious)
I don’t know if John would allow Rob to go back on his word with the freys. Being a bastard he always tried to emulate Ned the most. And Ned doesn’t like oathbreakers. I could see a duel happening between them not to the death but John would likely win Rob is better in the saddle John with the sword. Loses the duel has an unhappy marriage but now the freys are in line for the new growing northern kingdom. The freys actually mobilize there army for once giving I believe 5-6k more men. I also think the freys being in the camp could maybe sense the treachery of the boltons and stop it.
Regarding the question of whether the Iron Islanders kill Jon, I think it comes down to whether it happens the way you two laid it out. The wise course of action would be to send Jon INSTEAD of Theon, not in addition to him. Jon would be an emissary from Robb, delivering the King in the North’s proposal. Jon is high-status (so the Greyjoys won’t take offense), but he is bastard-born (so the Greyjoys wouldn’t see him as a valuable hostage). Then you could entice Theon’s father to do the smart play, either out of fear for Theon’s safety, or as a promise to release Theon if the Greyjoys sack Lannisport. So Robb would have the option of intimidation or reward - but only if he holds onto Theon and sends Jon to negotiate.
At least in the books, by the time theon reaches pyke, balon has called his banners and is readying his fleet to invade the north with robb marched south. Had Jon showed up instead of theon, I think they wouldve just killed him. I dont recall the greyjoys ever being hostage takers.
Jon in the books is smarter than Robb and also distrusts the iron born. so i feel he would make Robb marry Yara/Asha thus securing the biggest threat wholesale to the north. Secondly the Boltons only agree to betray Robb after the Karstark and Frey betrayals by Robb. , these are things that Jon would have easily been able to foresee as by the time they get to the Twins Robb's married into the Greyjoys and Walder has to choose between Theon Jon and Edmure and i think in this scenario he picks Edmure. and simply Balon doesnt rebel, Winterfell isnt burned, and after the battle of Breakwater Bay Robb takes Casterly rock and Jon lays siege to Kings landing, meanwhile with the victories of the two and Cat help convince Lysa to join them. easy
Honestly, this could genuinely lead to the actual true king winning. Stannis is probably going to have the North as a firm ally and the Riverlands as allies. He's likely to have parts of the Stromlands, too, still loyal to him. Since I could see the Crironge Islanders beating the Frays, sadly enough. This will lead to Riverlands probably rallying under Stannis as a way to be protected from the Greyidiots. This is because they are probably led slightly better... Little Finger might decide that allying with Stannis is clever if he doesn't want Jon coming after him for having Sansa. Also, because once Tyrion kills Tywin, since that's probably still gunna to happen, the Lannisters will only have Kevin as a competent military leader, who is probably already having to deal with the Iron Mongers. House Tyrell could also be busy with some Legit worthless islands. But they're the only real opponents to Stannis ngl. This is assuming if the Salt Lickers go after actually decently rich places that they could get a lot of stuff from and not the North. Some Greyterds probably do go under Theon because that's how those sea rats are. Giving him some shred legitimacy if he manages to earn his way with the "iron price." Regardless, Stannis is simply going to have more backup and be able to delegate tasks to Jon in which he can deal with threats, too. Possibly meaning that Jon, ironically, still gets sent near the wall, this time to deal with the Wildlings. In which Jon would probably have it handled, especially if Stannis can teach him a thing or two. So yeah, honestly, I think Stannis has this- Oh god, no... Dumberys has cheat codes... Yeah... Only real hope is if Jon can control one if you believe he's a tar or Stannis manages to get ahold of that mind control thing... Edit: Boltons probably still betray and attack Winterfell, since Bran would be their enemy from total control of the NORRRRF. Bran and Rick Sanchez gets away and become useless. Jon probably now Stark and Stannis come in and probably easily beat Ramsay or Rouse (No discredit to Rouse but he isn't standing up to a Stannis with Jons knowledge of Winterfell.) Plus it'll remind people of the Rebellion since it's like Bobby B and Ned reincarnated fighting alongside each other.
Only thing I'd want to add is that Stannis is a third generation targ (Jon a second) and I think it would be funny if they stole two of Danerys dragons 😭
So immediate thoughts before watching the video. 1) Jon does in fact stay in winterfell. Robb is lord of winterfell, loves Jon a whole lot, and Catelyn won’t dare override his decision to let Jon stay. 2) Jon and ghost are legends right alongside Robb and Grey Wind. The young wolf and the white wolf. 3) Robb sends Jon ALONG with Theon. Though this may lead to Jon’s death by treacherous greyjoys, but that’s boring writing. If Jon is not killed, doubtful Theon gets the balls to fully support his family and would return with Jon with the bad news. The north is still invaded by the greyjoys though. 4) Jon would absolutely take the fall for Robb and whatever marriage issues Robb faces, solving that issue for Robb as well as being Robb’s easy choice for an heir. The red wedding probably never happens, but if it does, Jon and ghost would ensure Robb’s survival at the least.
Jon would be killed on pyke. The shows isnt as explicit, but in the books when theon arrives most of the fleet is waiting at harbor because balon wants to invade the north. There was never a chance to bring him to Robb's side because as soon as robb lead his host south, balon was calling his banners to move in on the unprotected north. As I dont think the greyjoys take hostages, theyd likely just kill jon to keep word from reaching robb of their plans.
If he stays at Winterfell. Catelyn will make sure an "accident" happens to Jon. Luwin is from Riverrun and in Catelyn’s pocket, Jon won't survive Winterfell. Outstanding job!! What if suggestion - Tyrion is 6’4” tall
Little idea I cooked up earlier today, what if Bloodraven wasn’t actually the bastard of Aegon IV, and was actually the son of Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers
I could see Robb legitimizing Jon then leaving him to be Castellan of Winterfell and making that an interesting alternate scenario against the grey joys
I think Jon just fights his way out back to Robb and informs him of what happened, if they do attack. Also, I think this is one of the rare moments Jon would ever agree with Catelyn in and advise Robb to not even send Theon to his father. Jon doesn't execute Jaime because of his possible usefulness of getting his sister(s) back. Yes he finds Arya, for sure. Ghost for sure would be able to sense her so near. Also, Jon, at least book Jon would 100% take up the mantle of King of the North.
Ned’s other mistake was not telling catelyn about Jon’s true identity. She could’ve helped keep him safe instead of trying to make life hard and miserable for him while maintaining her perfect image of her husband.
The thing is Catelyn treating Jon the way she did inadvertently protected him because no woman in Westeros would treat their husband's bastard kindly if that same bastard was raised with their legitimate children and treated their family's future. If Catelyn hadn't treated him that way, then it would've made people question why and would've made people question if Jon was actually Ned's bastard, putting him in danger of being found out.
i think jon could gain some respect from others in the north as a respectable fighter and maybe a bit of a tactician during the war but after that it gets a bit more in the air because it depends on what he learns and when. For example the jamie scenario theres a large possibility he would use him as a bargaining chip because he can think in long terms and theres a chance bits of jamie could rub off on him but its hard to tell without going full fanfic
I Don't think Robb breaks his oath if Jon is with him. He would be a constant reminder of his fathers single dishonor and he would avoid it at all costs.
I think if Jon never joins the Watch he definitely goes south to Kings Landing with Ned, watches his back, learns about being hand of the king and politics and probably saves him from being killed. He’s kind of like Ned’s assistant and he may even learn of Cersei’s bastard kids and Ned probably tells him the truth about his mother in Kings Landing.
Remember in the books Tywin Lannister was in contact with Jane Westerlings mom, and Jamie was supposed to give her some kind of reward for what happened. So probably the mom orchestrated something a little bit
A few things for this what if to consider. 1.) I remember reading that Ned was planning to take Jon to kings landing but Cat was arguing with him about it. 2.) Jon and Theon would have to fight Brienne and Jaime's cousin Sir whatshisname in order to get Jaime. 3.) If they get Jaime the only place they can head to is Riverrun and they'll have to duck around The Brave Companions and Brotherhood without Banners to make it there. 4.) Ghost for sure going to link up with Nymeria while they are running around the Crossroads area. 5.) Book Theon and Jon hated each other if I remember correctly so Theon would definitely kill Jon to prove his loyalty to his father. 6.) Rob only names Jon his heir if he thinks Bran and Rickon dead so something would need to happen to them. So I think same stuff happens except Jon stays by Rob no matter what and only leaves his side to find Jaime and he probably never does get there and ends up either running with the army of Wolves because of Ghost and Nymeria and perhaps doing so they find Arya. Or Jon joins up with the Brotherhood.
I personally see rob giving Jon the command of the forces he gave to Roose Bolton, with no communication system like he had a harenhall. I think it would be much more difficult for roose to plan the red wedding.
I think it would have been a massive impact if Ned stopped Jon from going by telling him the truth about his parents. I think that would change his path
I’ve had this talk pretty in depth with some friends and my brother before. Ignoring the wall, which realistically would be a massive issue now, the general consensus always seems to be that events go as they normally go, with the only real difference being Jon is legitimized in person as a Stark and the current heir to Winterfell. The real convergence always seems to be the Red Wedding and the conclusions that always pop up are either: A.) Jon marries a Roslin in place of Robb, Walder is still angry, but content enough with the potential King in the North should Robb fall without an heir. At the least it would be the families most notable marriage in their history. B.) The Red Wedding still happens regardless of if it’s Jon or Edmure marrying Roslin, Jon dies. C.) The Red Wedding happens, Jon is not there. A bit iffy, on why he’s not there, but it’s not impossible I suppose. After all Edmure is Robb’s uncle, not his, guess there’s nothing technically compelling him to go, especially with Cat’s hatred of him. I’ve even had one friend say if Jon was with Robb he could potentially preserve Robb’s honor by marrying Jeyne himself so Robb could still follow through on his deal with the Freys, without having to abandon the potentially pregnant Jeyne. I’ll admit I do kinda like that one even if there isn’t much to really go on with it, as it kinda mirrors Ned’s own actions in a way and isn’t entirely out of character. All this becomes irrelevant in a way tho if you account for the wall. Does the Nightswatch even survive long enough for Stannis to break Mance’s army? If not do Wildlings simply take over the north? How much worse is the eventual army of the dead situation without Jon? I think quite likely that without Jon’s double desertion to warn Castle Black of the impending attack that they fall quite easily.
If Jon went to the Greyjoys they would take him hostage. But if Jon didn't go to the Wall then the wildlings are not let through, no one is saved from Hardhome, and the army of the Dead will overwhelm the Wall. Without a dragon because Daenerys doesn't come North. But the kingdom gets no warning and the army of the dead takes all Westeros. Daenerys and her dragons fly back to Essos. As well anyone with ships.
Balon is friendly with Jon but declined to aid. He learns Robb had left little to defend winterfell. Grayjoys invade winterfell. Jon and Theon march north to reclaim winterfell while bran heads north of the wall. Robb continues south
if jon was there rob would never marry jeyn westerling as he only did it because he was lonely and felt honor born but jon would remind him of his oaths. then jon would eventually split from rob to reclaim winterfell while robb continues on and add stannis to his army in an alliance so it would be. whats left of stannis army+ the north + iron bank vs tyrells and lannisters. meanwhile jon would go back kill theon and wage his own war to fight against the iron born( in this scenario no redwedding because no oaths were broken and roose won't betray robb without assurance from tywin which tywin cant give since robb is alive)
Jon rides south with Robb and dies in the Red Wedding alongside everyone else but is the one brought back to life by Beric since Arya wolf dreaming into Nymeria brings his body to the riverbank instead of Catelyn’s
Here's bulletins of what I believe happens: •Jon sees a vision or dream of a Wolf and a Lion in combat, this creates worry for him and concern for his family so he puts off going to the wall, OR he just overhears or is convinced by Rob and Arya not to go while Bran just got injured. This puts off time enough for Jon to guard and watch Bran with Rob until he recovers or his worries are subsided from his dream by Bran recovering. •After Bran wakes up, Jon goes to join up with Rob after Bran convinces him too, Rob who went on a war path a week before hand upon news of Ned's Imprisonment told Jon to guard Bran while he is away, before gathering houses and heading south. Jon w Ghost travels solo south to link up with Rob finding information on where he is through roadside inns and towns, he doesn't experience much conflict on the road he just travels slower then Rob due to needing to be wary. During this Rob will get notice of Ned's death and continue his full war path, Jon would still be unaware but is perhaps plagued with a vision of of Headless wolf causing him to speed up his journey. •At this point Rob is in a similar scenario as before winning skirmishes through hit and run tactics using the terrain and land advantages and is getting ready to request aid from the Iron Islands with Morale at a high, but just after being crowned "King in the North" Jon arrives to his camp not giving Theon the ability to request he himself goes to the Iron Islands momentarily. Rob will take a moment to explain whats going on to Jon informing him of Ned's death and Sansa and "Aryas" imprisonment. This is when Rob takes Jon out of a rage filled mind and stears him towards the main goal of Revenge but with cool heads. This is when Theon will request to seek aid from the Islands to avenge Ned, Rob will have Jon go with him to keep minds clear and focused. •Jon and Theon proceed to go to the Iron Islands like you both believed but in this scenario I think Jon actually gets hit on by Theons Sister this time around after Jon ridicules Theon for his reckless nature attempting to go for her in a sexual manner. She would laugh it off in typical fashion not really caring much but takes a little interest in Jon and flirts with him, none of which is really returned but Jon does end up kissing her but pushes back and focuses on the task rather then trying to escalate it. •Jon and Theon arrive on the Islands, Guest right is respected for it is a very serious thing to break in Westeros however Jon is treated like complete trash by all of them and even offered decayed food instead of actual food. Jon just endures the hate similar to as he did on the wall and with Caitlyn. This kinda pisses Theon off though and is the reason he doesn't really listen to his father or attempt to get alone. He and Theon eventually leave after failing to secure a alliance. Then one of 2 things happen either Yara attempts to accompany them with the plan to try and bring Theon back or She just stays and joins in the raids in the riverlands. Imo she would go with Theon and Jon. But I can see the alternative. •Jon and Theon w Yara go to join up with Rob, Yara saying "Hey atlesst you got 1 Grayjoy to help HAHA", during the time they were away Rob basically does the exact same as he did before goes simp mode, Caitlyn makes a ridiculous engagement without his consent and it leads to the same tensions with the Frays. I dont think Walter would accept Jon as legalized unless Rob takes Kings Landing either so that wouldn't work as a option. So the betrayel still happens with Rob and tensions are high but they still are able to cross the twins and go forward. Jon joins up with Rob again but they take a boat w Yara sailing it not heading towards the twins but a planned future encampment Rob told Jon about and via Ghost and sleep Warging he is able to confirm that it is the correct place to go. •Jon arrives in the camp the day after Caitlyn releases Jamie out of fear for Sansa and Arya, it could be speculated she wouldn't be so hot headed due to Bran not dying however in my mind they would end up "dissapearing" in a sense due the 3 eye raven maybe Meera and her brother convinces him to leave with visions perhaps, causing Caitlyn to worry about kidnapping and such which still has her lose her emotions. Rob heated informs Jon about the idiotic move his mother made and tasks Jon to go and track down the Kingslayer and bring him back, Brianne in this scenario is still accompanying him as well. Theon and Yara go with Jon to track down the Kingslayer, Yara curious about the women knight, and Theon just basically going along with Jon out of obligation. •On the track towards finding Jamie, Yara is able to convince Theon to leave Jon and go back to the Islands, shes been slowly trying to convince him and uses the task saying Rob sees him as nothing but a errand boy for a bastard. Theon and Yara leave in the middle of the night, Yara wants to kill Jon but Theon says no but warns of Ghost as a excuse for it. Jon would wake up and realize he's been robbed and stranded by Theon and Yara who took most of his supplies and any valuables only leaving a Dagger for a weapon even taking his sword. Jon would be enraged but he pushes it aside and goes back towards the task of tracking Jamie. •a differ again between us, I believe due to Ghost Jon actually finds Jamie before he loses his hand. He finds him shortly after Brianne and Jamie have their duel. •Jon then conflicts with Brianne saying Rob tasked him with bringing Jamie back but she resists due to orders from Caitlyn which causes Jon to instantly dislike her to a degree due to her swearing herself to "that women". However eventually tensions stop after Jon says he can help her get his sister's back and will join in the task but only if she does what he says. Jamie then is prisoner to both of them as they take a alternate path w Ghost keeping them away from Enemy patrols due to senses and other factors. Jon or Brianne would alternate into Inns to gather supplies. •On the path Ghost would find Arya in my vision. For his senses would be able to due to being a Direwolf sensing her presence. Ghost would bolt off and cause panic for Jon as Ghost just charges into a forest. Ghost would tackle Arya catching her off guard causing her to panic due to his silence but causing her to burst into slight joy realizing its Ghost which means Jon. •Jon would inform Arya of all thats been going on and have a good reunion, Arya would want to murder Jamie but Jon stops her. Jon would then task Brianne with guarding Arya and bringing her back to Rob and Cait. While Jon continues on with Jamie and Ghost. Jamie would think he could maybe take Jon out but he's cautious and doesn't attempt to due to Ghost. From here things can vary quite drastically and I'm not quite sure what would happen if Jon finds out Rob died and if he would continue to go to Kings landing or not, I do think though he would somewhat bond with Jamie on the road trading storys, banter and meals. I think Arya and Brianne would get captured by the brotherhood in this scenario as well, perhaps Brianne distracts them for Arya to escape though but I'm unsure
Part 2: In my mind this is what happens next: •Jon while Jamie is prisoner has another vision this time of 2 headless Wolves. This concerns him and causes him to head back to Rob with Jamie in tow. This angers Jamie saying they need to continue on the road to Kings Landing trying to convince him about Sansa, Jon says go himself, Jamie can't due to still being bound and pursues after him begrudgingly trying to get him to remove his chains. This is when Jon would head towards a inn with Jamie and Ghost and overhear the news about Rob from over hearing 5 drunk Bolton soldiers laughing about the red wedding. Jon in a moment of rage would attack them taking out one quickly but then getting overrun by 4 of them, Jamie in this moment would watch him getting outnumbered but very begrudgingly would stab a soldier in the back with a longsword from the 1st killed Soldiers person ironically being the one in cannon who cuts his hand off. Jon then surprised and thanks to the surprise is able to take on the other 3 Drunk Soldiers with Ghost only taking a slight slash injury to his person and some bruises. Jamie would then demand the Keys and say they are "even" and if he wishes to die in a rage fueled revenge spree feel free but don't do it while he's still got his key. Jon would then take a moment and collect himself and Jamie and him would have a emotional moment about not letting your emotions control you like it did Jamie all those years ago and to think rationally. Jon would thank him but still go North after Jamie confirms to Jon that if freed he would still uphold his promise and save Sansa. Unsure on where to send her after but assures she will be safe. •Jon would then head back North, Jamie south. During this time I think the Lannisters will again have captured Arya but this time seriously wounding Brianne in the process thinking shes a Remli remnant and not realizing shes Arya. Causing them to be hated by her even more I think she will escape but Brianne is captured and brought back to KL for ransom to her father. •Jon when he arrives North will still want revenge but this time on the Frays more then anything. He will like you said Rally the north due to his letter but before going to do any major Battle Jon will be approached via Raven by the Nights watch requesting aid against the 100,000 man army of the king beyond the wall. He will see this as a honorable move and a way to gather more support and rush his forces of say 3,000 men to the wall. •Upon Arrival however Jon will find out the Nights watch has already been saved thanks to Stannis the Mannis. Stannis would instantly demand he drop his arms and say his intentions. Upon hearing them Stannis would relax somewhat but Mallasandra would become intrigued by Jon sensing something about him due to his blood. She would whisper to Stannis a suggestion of a alliance. Stannis would have already been thinking the same but demand Jon bend the knee forming a alliance between their houses like the old rebellion and promising to legitimise him. •In this version Jon wouldn't have any real reason to deny it except for 1, he would demand for Revenge against the Frays. Stannis would agree sometime after Winterfell and the North is retaken and only then. •Now with Jons 3,000 additional men all familiar with the Northern environment this will be enough to secure Winterfell. However there is 2 routes now, 1.) Stannis requests Jon to go recruit wildlings to bolster their number, potentially getting a Hearthome moment and more bodys for Stannis's Army and waits to leave until Jon returns. Or they just attack Winterfell then and there.
I feel like Jon would actually side with Catlyn about the iron islands and Theon wouldn’t end up being sent at all. Without Theon’s “coup” in Winterfell and with Jon also there, that’d encourage more loyalty from the North as a whole, they may even still end up putting a Borathean back on the throne before marching back north. With Jon also being fully recognized into the family, him marrying the Frey girl definitely would’ve been a step up from what happened. I don’t think there’s a remotely strong enough base for the Boltons to revolt in that situation. I’m fairly confident this would stop the Red Wedding from even happening and likely could even end the whole war before it even begins.
Kinda think this video would've been more interesting if ya'll had spent more time discussing how Jon might've change Robb's strategy. If he's just Robb's second in command what kind of council does he give, he might immediately sway Robb to kneel before Stannis, maybe instead of Catelyn going to parley Jon does so. Perhaps if Jon is leading a force separate from Robb, he might improve the relationships between Robb and some of his bannermen. Maybe Rickard Karstark is spared? Maybe, Robb sends Jon to be his rep with the Tully's and Jon constantly has to butt heads with dumb dumb Edmure? (How does Jon's (semi) friendship with Tyrion come into play)?
I'd like to think about if Jon went to Kings Landing with Ned to keep an eye on Arya and Sansa and what his trek home would be like, what groups he may join to avenge his dad starting from the south working his way back north, maybe even with Gendri in tow, as a second generation Ned and Robert on a tear.
If John captures Jaime, wouldn't that prevent or prolong the red wedding, cause Jaimy and Roose Bolton more or less make the deal initially. Jaimy convinces Bolton that his father will have his back.
Man that would have changed so much. With book Jon's sound strategical advice it would have made Robb even more deadly on the battlefield. Jon could have potentially prevented Robb from simping, put dad of the year Walder Frey in his place, told him not to trust Theon, and probably gotten him to keep Catelyn in Winterfell. Or at the very least if Catelyn had still joined them and let Jaime free he could have convinced Robb to send her to the wall where she belongs 😂
There are like a hundred possible options how the plot might change with Jon in it, BUT if we do get all the way to the Red Wedding, I don't think Jon is there to die. At that point, it would be a Tully-Frey affair and I don't see a reason for Jon to be invited. It's probably enough the Tullys extend their hospitality to him at Riverrun (although I see him staying with the men in tents) but why invite him to Edmure's wedding? And why would he insist on being there? There would be no reason to suspect trouble, so I can see Robb leaving him behind to keep peace and maybe act as a quasi sworn sword to Jayne? It would be an interesting plot twist if after the news reached them, Jon tried to smuggle Jayne out of Riverrun and take her to safety someplace up north? We could have another pair of travellers (like Jaime and Brienne) trying to get somewhere. And if Jayne was pregnant...
1) Jon marches south with Robb. 2) Jon attends Tully funeral in Riverrun (despite Catelyn not wanting him there). 3) Jon convinces Robb to not execute Lord Karstark. 4) Robb has enough men to take Casterly Rock without the Freys. 5) Roose is too scared to backstab Robb unless it's a rigged setting (like the Red Wedding). 6) Lannisters are in shambles with no Rock, no Jaime, and no gold mines. 7) No Red Wedding. 8) Tyrion doesn't attempt his stupid "capture Casterly Rock" plan and Daenerys doesn't lose her Westerosi armies. 9) No dragons go North of the Wall for a stupid zombie kidnapping plan. 10) The Wall keeps the Army of the Dead out because they have no dragon to melt the Wall. 11) Jorah is still alive because there's no battle at Winterfell. 12) Jorah convinces Daenerys to not burn down King's Landing. 13) King Robb and Queen Daenerys team up to take King's Landing. 14) Robb pledges the North to Daenerys in exchange for her heir being a Stark (because she cannot have kids). 15) Brandon Stark eventually inherits the throne and allows the North to claim independence. So, the same ending - but all the cool characters survive!
I think John snow would used as the marriage partner for the Frey’s avoids locking the Frey’s into the heirs family, while still maintaining the chance of taking the throne in the future
So there are some things I dissagree & agree with: 1. If there is any reason why John might not join the night's watch immediatly, it's because he follows his Uncle Benjen's advice that he should wait a little longer and expierence the freedom of life he has, before joining the watch. 2. John was always supposed to join the watch, as his uncle Ned believes it to be the safest path for him, to keep him keep his parental lineage a secret. But it didn't have to be at that moment. 3. John would never be allowed to go to King's landing as Ned would fear Robert might find out (which is also why John was send to sit in a dark corner when Robert arrived at winter fell, and not in the line of introduction). 4. Catelyn wouldn't send John away. She literally wouldn't act any different towards him, she can't send him away because of Ned not liking it, and Rob would likely help John out as well (probably even giving him some responsibillity as well. Which might impact whenever or not John will ever join the nights watch). 5. John would go immediatly with Theon and Rob. 6. John and Theon's relationship isn't great. Also Theon would still give into peer pressure, John can't stop him from that. It's Theon's whole character at that point of the game. 7. Yes. John would be killed if he joins Theon to the Greyjoy house. He might be held captive to further pressure the Stark household, but I doubt that since he isn't a trueborn, but a bastard, so he isn't seen as valuable. They only really kept nobles as captives for ransom and leverage. 8. And I will stop there, since there is no way John would join Theon to go to the Iron Islands. So the rest of the video appears to not even be worth watching as you kept going with that idea. Which has pretty much a 0 percent chance of happening. I think that the war could be very different. John would be against Rob flirting and sleeping with Jane (and I think John would be at his brother/cousin side during the war. To keep him safe and all that). I think this, because of John's opinion about bastards. And I would like to think that having John tell him this is wrong, since he is engaged and the consequences (remember, John is also a great tactician like Robb, but while Robb is more skilled in the long game, John is so in the short game). Remembering he is engaged by John, Rob likely wouldn't destroy the alliance with the Frey. Which would be beneficial in the short term, keeping the Lanistars engaged up north, ensuring Stannis takes King's landing etc. But the problems aren't solved yet. John will not stop or speak up against making John king of the North, thus creating enemies with Stannis. And at this point, I think the war is between them. Now, Dorne will remain neutral untill the Golden Company invades Dragonstone. But what about the collapsing house Lannistar? I think Tywin will likely try to bend the knee to Stannis, hoping to spare House Lannistar the fate of execution and it's survival to be rebuild another day. He would also side with Stannis over the Starks, as the Starks would be less likely to forgive him for the death of Ned. And Tywin might try to mediate between Stannis & the North (to get his heir back safe and sound). Tywin could also try to create peace with Rob, to get his heir back safe and sound, but not sure if that would work. These houses despite eachother quite a bit, and the death of Ned at the Lannistar hand would rub a lot of salt in the wounds. So I think option 1 is more likely. Now about the negotiations. Stannis would demand Rob to bend the knee and rejoin, and I think Rob would do this, IF, his sisters are returned to him, and the people responsible for Ned's death are punished. Which Stannis would agree with no problem, Tywin would likely get his handicapped heir Jaime back as well as part of this deal. I also think Rob would kneel here, because the Greyjoy's need to be dealt with at this point, and winter is coming (aka, the men need to tend to the farms for food). But what I am more worried about is if any problems would arise due to small acts. I don't think Joffrey can escape, and even if he did, it wouldn't matter at all. They lost at this point, and nobody will support him at this point. Even house Lannistar under Tywin would capture and send Joffrey to Stannis as an act of good faith and to gain favor. I am more worried about Sansa. John will likely be send to search for Arya with a small group of soldiers of house Stark. Sansa however, is in a dangerous situation. She is in King's landing during the attack of Stannis and the fall of it. Meaning there is a very high chance she could be killed or harmed (ra[pe being very likely as that tends to happen in war). If this were to happen, how would this hurt the relationship between Rob & Stannis. If Sansa is killed and Arya is missing, Rob is a lot less likely to bend the knee, maybe even holding Stannis responsible for Sansa's death. If Sansa is hurt in any way, I still see Rob bending the knee, but demanding a wide investigation and the punishment of the people who did it. House Stark would also likely get Ice back. The tyrells would try to get their daughter to marry Stannis as he is heirless. The Golden Company would attack Westeros, Stannis would have to fight them and Dorne (possibly also against Dany at this time or afterwards), and I think he would still win (at a steep price), but it's iffy. Since his country has just seen a destructive war, and he has little to no time to establish his position, varys is inside King's Landing and loyal to the Targaryans, Littlefinger is killed for treason, Dorne would leave the Kingdom and can't be conquered, Stannis is heirless and the last Baratheon in the line of succession (as far as I know), so his death (which is quite likely) would spark a civil war and a power vaccuum. Likely causing Westeros to be split up and divided again to some extend, or be ruled by the mother of dragons & the potential and highly unlikely Griff or Westeros would be the home of another civil war between Dany & Griff. One side with dragons, who will likely be the winner.
Jon pretends to side with the Iron Islands and secretly warns Rob. Then Jon sails back to Winterfell with Theon where a host of Stark bannermen is waiting. Jon switches sides and leads the bannermen against Theon. If Jon goes with Rob, he could have protected Rob so Rob doesn't get injured and Jane doesn't nurse him back to health. Therefore, Rob does not fall in love and marry Jane breaking his marriage pack oath with the Freys. At the very least, Jon could have been the voice of reason that kept Rob from making his biggest mistake ever.
I think that this alternative heads in the wrong direction to begin with. If we presume that Jon's departure to the Night's Watch is delayed for whatever reason (maybe Benjen is waiting for Yoren to return to Winterfell with some fresh recruits), only for the Catspaw to attempt to kill Bran. This could then be the catalyst for Jon to change his mind and be the one that Catelyn and Robb decide to send to King's Landing in order to inform Ned. Remember, Cat wanted to send him away to King's Landing anyway, and this would be a perfect opportunity to do so. Also, being a bastard, Jon can be a lot less conspicuous than Cat around King's Landing. As a result we don't have the capture of Tyrion (based on lies from Littlefinger, which we would not get in this case), which causes Ned to sustain an injury to his leg after the streetside brawl. Meanwhile, Jon is hanging around King's Landing learning what it truly means to be a bastard. But Jon may enter the Hand's tourney in the melee as a mystery knight in order to test himself, why not. In the meantime, Yoren arrives in King's Landing and spreads word that Lord Commander Mormont has been killed in his bed at Castle Black, while Benjen has gone missing beyond the wall. Also, Ned learns from Yoren that Mance Rayder is amassing an army to assault the wall. Then Ned falls out with Robert over wanting to kill Daenerys and buggers off home taking all his children with him, mulling over Jon Arryn's death. Ned, returns to Winterfell, and after a long jorney resumes his Lordship having figured out that Robert's heirs are bastards. Jon, having now returned to Winterfell with Yoren and seen the scum that have been recruited, realises that he doesn't want to join the Night's Watch. Also, they manage to reclaim Nymeria on the way home thanks to Jon and Ghost sniffing her out. Ned, now knowing the truth of Jon Arryn's death, decides to send Jon to Stannis, in order to seek out his counsel on what best to do. Ned now starts preparing for the inevitable clash with Mance Rayder (It still ends the same way, Ned is an excellent field commander) and Stannis now knows he has a backer should Robert die. But owing to the fact that Ned had not figured out the incest before he left, he has not warned Cersei and she has not killed Robert. Giving Ned and Stannis plenty of time to plot together and we know that even Varys has trouble finding things out on Dragonstone, giving these plots the utmost secrecy. Once, Robert is taken out and Ned declares for Stannis, it is likely that the Riverlands and Dorne(because they hate the Lannisters) will also declare for Stannis. Whilst the Stormlands and the Reach may think about propping up Renly, they may hesitate now that Stannis has powerful backers, which gives time for Stannis to declare Renly his heir in the meantime to secure both of those realms. With the Vale likely remaining neutral in this scenario, Joffrey only has the Crownlands and the Westerlands to support him, likely leading to the Mannis sitting the Iron Throne. Mance then attacks the Wall, Ned and Stannis come to the aid of the Night's Watch. Ned personally executes Mance, but hears what he and the other Wildlings have to say about the coming White Walkers. And preparations to withstand the long night begin. After that, or other plotlines, who knows.
At least in the books. Ramsey gets captured and taken to Winterfell while disguised as Reek, if Theon doesn't betray the North then Winterfell isn't sacked. Every single ironborn officer that Theon meets tells him it's a bad idea, even after he does it no one wants to help him because they know they can't hold Winterfell. If Theon doesn't attack Winterfell, then Ramsey isn't released, Winterfell isn't sacked and the Boltons are left leaderless in the North, the two worst Stark characters continue to do nothing. If the Red Wedding does happen and Jon does attend. It will probably be a double snare, Jon and Edmure would both be captured while the rest of the guests are killed. Since Rob legitimized Jon the Freys might try to use him as a puppet Warden of the North or at the very least a hostage. He would be even more valuable if the two worst starks are allegedly killed by Theon. The Nights Watch likely lose the Battle of Castle Black. Jon wouldn't have been there to warn the Watch of the impending Thenn attack from the rear. Mole Town at least is caught unaware, Castle Black wouldn't get enough of an advance warning to set up barricades and create that trap at the staircase, if Jons thoughts are to be trusted the Thenns probably would have just attacked at night while the Watch was sleeping. If they somehow manage to push back the attack I doubt they would have held out long enough for Stannis to rescue them. I'm willing to bet that Stannis still crushes the wildlings handedly, but everyone at Castle Black is dead leaving I think around 2-3 hundred Nights Watch members left. Stannis recruits the Wildlings, doesn't recruit the mountain clans, joins with the Umbers and attacks the Dreadfort. Jon suggests that this plan wouldn't work, but that wouldn't stop the Mannis.
The positives are jon would probably be married off to the frey chick, he could probably keep robb from marrying a minor noblewoman from volantis/bannerwoman of tywin lannister and perhaps push him towards a marriage alliance with the greyjoysl's(asha) or more likely the martell's(arianne) if not the tyrrell's(margaery) after renly dies against the lannisters, and he'd be a decent commander in robb's army, the negatives are he was instrumental for most of the events at and north of the wall so if not an army of wildlings bearing down on winterfell an army of corpses instead
I think an interesting point to look at (writing this before watching) is how or if the watch will win against the wildlings. In the books and show, Jon is the only reason they know of the wildlings host size and that there are many south already. The question is whether or not the watch would get that intel, because without it I think they would blatantly loose.
Assuming Theon still is sent to the Iron Islands and still betrays the starks, Jon would have been sent to retake Winterfell instead of Ramsey. Theon would have confessed that he didnt kill Bran and Rickon and that message would have been relayed to Robb. With Jon at Winterfell, Rickon would have also been returned there even if Bran is still heading north of the wall. With that in mind, Roose Bolton would continue to back the Starks as his men have also got Jaime Lannister in custody assuming that the Brienne/Jaime story has played out the same way. With Theon once again a hostage, the Greyjoys would likely leave the north and/or do as instructed. The red wedding does not take place and the Starks will likely march on Casterly Rock as planned after the Tully/Frey wedding. I expect further bargaining chips may have been included such as the promise of marrying either Rickon or Jon to a Frey girl as well. At that point you really then could go anywhere with what happens next
I think if Jon doesn't join the Night's Watch, he goes South with Robb, Catelyn stays at Winterfell. Because Catelyn isn't there to broker the deal with the Freys, the Northern army goes to White Harbor instead. So no deal to be broken and no Frey betrayal means no Red Wedding. Instead the Starks sail south, unite with the Vale, maybe by agreeing to marry Sansa or Arya to Robin if they get them back. Theon still goes alone to the Iron Islands. Theon still attacks Winterfell, but doesn't kill Catelyn or the boys. Catelyn refuses to leave Winterfell so Bran and Rickon never go North. When Robb hears what happened at Winterfell, he sends Jon with some of the Stark soldiers to meet with Ramsay's Bolton troops and retake Winterfell. When the Ironborn realise they're boned, they trade their prisoners and Theon for an easy escape. With Jon there, Theon is executed, rather than tortured by Ramsay. Jon taking back Winterfell is enough for Catelyn to forgive him, but not enough for him to stay. He's sent to the wall or to return to the army. Arya still gets taken by The Hound, gets taken to the Vale as its closer and the Vale are allied with the North. Maybe she gets there before Robb sails South, maybe she gets there just after. There's no Red Wedding, so the Boltons stay in their lane, the Starks hold Winterfell. But going to White Harbour and sailing South means before they can get to King's Landing they have to go past Dragonstone and therefore Stannis. Stannis after the Blackwater. Maybe Stannis still puts Robb's name in the fire and Robb dies, or maybe Robb and Stannis unite against the Lannisters. Stannis might be willing to allow the North to be free if they bolster his claim, as he's lost most of his troops by that stage. Jaime isn't released by Catelyn, so he's still a prisoner, he doesn't lose his hand, he's kept to trade for Sansa. So the united alliance goes back to King's Landing for Blackwater 2: Electric Boogaloo. This time using Jaime as a pawn so they can't do the same wildfire trick. Trading prisoners goes poorly because Joffrey is Joffrey, and there's a big King's Landing royal rumble. But none of the good fortune for the Starks matters because the North gets fucked by a giant Wildling army, the Night's Watch are defeated. Mance Rayder with all the wildling tribes will rape and pillage the entire North. And if they survive that, the White Walkers come in for round 2 and everyone is fucked.
@1:20......Jon would have to leave. Cat is explicit in book one when she tells ned he has to take jon to kl too. Ned refuses because jon would be shunned at court, so cat then says she wont allow him to stay in winterfell with ned gone. Luwin then jumps in and says a solution may have presented itself since jon mentioned returning with benjen to the wall.
If Jon remains behind I think he would a a strong councilor for Bran, who could speak with Robbs authority to keep the north united. I can see him ralling the North to go push out the Iron Born.
It's funny how Ramsay Snow/Bolton (and the actors ofc 👌) did such a great job that ever since then, every single time I hear "Theon" all that always comes to mind a milliseconds after without fail is : Not Theon, Reek ! My name is Reek !! 😅
I think Jon would go down with Robb, events in the north would play out the same with Theon and then Ramsey taking Winterfell, and Rickon and Bran would be "dead". Jon would be sent to recapture the North, he then tells Robb about their brothers. In response to this and Jon retaking the North Robb legitimizes him and makes him acting lord of winterfell. If Rob decides to still be an idiotic and breaks his oath to the Freys he could possibly have Jonb be married to the Freys, tying them into the Starks bloodline.
red wedding doesnt happen for several reasons but ill stick with the big two; 1. John would have the job of luring Tywin into the trap not Edmure thus it actually succeeds so no need to pull back through the twins. 2. John would not attend the wedding proper and more likely be hunting down Jamie in such a case the Frays would not take the risk as the heir to the stark throne would be out of reach making any attempt on Robbs life a death sentence. really though if John stays he basically wins the north for Robb as his presence and ability make it impossible to take out the whole family at he red wedding thus making it unlikely to happen.
If you go back and read the chapters, Benjin tells Jon not to join, he is the only one saying no. It's that dam maester Luwin who got what he deserved. Luwin was the one that suggested Jon to the Wall. He was looking out for Catelynm, he was her maester at Riverrun. Dude got what he deserved.
Feel like an interesting storyline could be he goes south with his dad and helps him out down there for whatever reason idk. His dad tells him about his mum and dad, as roberts still alive there's no thoughts of taking the throne as hes the true heir. Hopefully in this storyline the king and stay alive for a bit longer.
If John was alive rob never dies, not only would he be another very level opinion regarding the iron islands and marriage but if he catches Jamie then the bultens never have their bargaining chip to get Lannister help and protection.
Let us know what you think would have happened if Jon never joined the Nights Watch
You know I love you guys, but this title is very disappointing. You all are different than every other Thrones/Dragon TH-camrs. I don’t think your fans care about Jon Snow. You all know who we want videos about.
Craester doesn’t kick his a$$.
What If Catelyn Stark was more motherly towards Jon Snow
Maybe Jon being such a good “politician” convinces disgusting ironborn to have a brain cell for once and side with robb against the lannisters
I think your next video should be what if ballon had a brain cell and sided with robb because no ironborn attack on the North means no sacking of winterfell, which is the main reason cat set Jaime free so that she could at least get Sansa and Arya back, this means no Karstark forces leavening and if Jaime isn’t free he can’t help roose communicate with Tywin which means no red wedding but with a even stronger north and a not totally brain dead ironislands
If Jon doesn't join the nights watch, the red wedding doesn't happen. He'd go with Robb and be legitimized on the spot in front of everyone as Robb's heir. The only reason Roose Bolton was willing to betray Robb is because Bran and Rickon were presumed dead and Jon was just a bastard at Castle Black. With no legitimate heir, the risk was worth the reward. With all 3 being confirmed alive at this point and Jon already legitimized, there would be way too much risk involved with betraying Robb. I also don't think Robb betrays his vow to the Frays if Jon is around. If Robb did that with Jon around, Jon would lose all respect for him and I feel like that's too important to him.
Robb is the only Stark sibling who actually loved Jon😢
@@nont18411 Uhmm Arya? And Brann und Rickon (well he is really young, so he may not count) liked him as well. The only sibling Jon did not get along with was Sansa.
@@nont18411Arya loves him more than Robb I think.
Jon would've prevented him from getting injured, so he doesn't need a nurse
@@JohnFreyholtz-ii8ju Yeah this is my thought, OR when he was injured, Jon would have stayed by his side so he basically would have c-blocked Robb and Jeyne 🤣
the only difference is that Sam is actually bullied... i mean socially corrected by Ser Allister and becomes a SAVAGE strong-fat warrior, a true Tarly.
@@picklejarmonsterfanboy9367 Sam does a belly flop from the top of the wall on the white walker guy wrestlemania style saving everyone.
Sam would leap off the wall while crying on watch one day.
Sam does a Gomer Pyle from Full Metal Jacket
Becomes the westerosi version of Strong Belwas.
Sam's father was doing that for his whole life and it didn't work. What makes you think that ser Alliser would be successful?
Book Jon is more like a politician, while Jon in the show in doing the hero journey in the Wall
I'd imagine Catlyn would try to kick him out only for Robb to go "Mother be a good souther woman and STFU I'M the acting lord of Winterfell now. And I say MY BROTHER can stay in HIS HOME." but ot course in a lot nicer tone then Catlyn deserves.
Would love to see this
I feel like if Ayra was there she would stick up for him too, and Theon might want to but can't because of his situation. I feel more strongly about the former though.
Why would she not deserve respect. She's only trying to protect her family from the literal bastard. Someone who could be used weather willingly or not to threaten the position of her legitimate children.
@@leepreston9637she s a woman duh 😂
@@leepreston9637bastards can't inherit unless they are legitimized by the king and literally every other legitimate child(including the women) are dead, irl the only time I've ever heard of a bastard inheriting over a legitimate child was in portugal when the king died, all his legitimate sons were dead, his daughter(and heir) was married to the king of spain and wanted to have portugal annexed by her husband, and the only other legitimate candidate was the dead kings brother who supported his neice anyway, so the portuguese aristocracy rose up and made the old kings bastard son king rather than be annexed by a spain
Cat is scared that Jon would rise against her son, so there is no way in hell she would send him with Theon who she assumes might betray them
Or leave him to hold Winterfell.
Eh tbh she doesn't get a say,Robb loves Jon more than anyone and he's king.
Also,I'm pretty sure the northern lords would like him out the gate regardless if he's a bastard or not as he is a Stark by blood and that's all that matters to them.
In the wild zenos-spotting
@@utafumi_s3244 a test of your reflexes
@Spadzz98 quad squad of Ghost, Grey Wind, Jon, and Robb cutting down lannisters would've impressed the northern lord and given Jon the respect he deserves and backed Robb naming him heir
In this timeline, Sam Tarley gets frisky with both Gilly and Ygritte, solos the siege of Castle Black (not sure from which side), and kills the show version of the night king
Exactly with only his dragonglass dagger
with one hand while he is stuffing his face with the other.
Sam the slayer being reality
@@JohnFreyholtz-ii8ju no he gets longclaw from jeor
lmao I wish that would happened be a badass but mostly likely without Jon being there to protect him and make him a better man, Sam would most likely get killed much early in the season either by other man or he kill himself cause he got tired of get bully
If jon doesn't go to the wall he stops Rob from becoming king and persuades Rob to honor Ned and declare for Stannis.
Oh damn I can see that happening
Everyone always forgets about Howland Reed who also knows about Jon.
@@Fenris30if it’s the show then howland probably would still assume Jon’s a bastard, and if it’s book Jon, then he technically is a bastard.
@@HeadbutKneecapnot really
How would Jon know that Ned wanted to support Stannis? Ned's letters never made it out of Kingslanding, and nobody knows why he was captured and why he was really killed.
If Jon didn’t went to the Wall then everyone should get really comfortable with twenty feet of snow, endless darkness, cold winds that can freeze men whole, and the end to all civilizations. Then the White Walkers and the undead show up months later.
Sure coz Jon is the only one who could stop them.
@@rodgerskuchikiri7650I don’t think it’s about him being the one to stop them. Jon was the one to go to hardhome and experience first hand the white walkers and night king. Which gave him the initiative to spread the word that the dead were coming and prepare. Without Jon Westeros is unaware of the dead army. Dani’s focus is on Cersei and while they are battling for the iron throne the night king surprises them and game over.
@@IamnelsKinda impiles someone else won't take his role...
@Iamnels do you think they'd get past the wall without the dragon they capture though?
@@amakavelist565 I do think they will after all aegon the conqueror knew at some point whatever was beyond the wall would come. Which is why he wanted the 7 kingdoms united. I’m sure the night king would’ve had a way to get passed the wall. It was just luck that a dragon showed up which would lead him to take control over later.
If the Ironborn didn’t take Winterfell, and Bran and Rickon aren’t believed to be dead, Cat doesn’t release Jamie, so Lord Karstark doesn’t go mad and kill the Lannister prisoners, so Robb doesn’t behead him leading to the Karstark forces deserting. Robb only went back to the Frey’s to replace the manpower of the Karstark’s so in this scenario the Red Wedding likely doesn’t take place
Jon would have married one of the Freys instead to save Robb from the Red Wedding
@SSJ2DN if bran and rickon are "dead". Sansa married to tyrion. Arya propably in kingslanding. Just like in canon robb legitimises jon (propably). Jon is the heir to the north. He marries the frey girl.
@@vigokarnebeek9856 I still see Walder bristling at the idea of a newly legitimized bastard being given as a 'my bad' for breaking a marriage betrothal by knocking up some other woman. Robb is young, if he lives he will have kids and heirs and Frey knows that better than most actually lol.
Ron can legitimize Jon he is a king
uhm...what?marrying a stark bastard is a downgrade from marrying the tully air
@@SSJ2DNRobb would’ve legitimized Jon as soon as he was named king.
I feel like Jon would encourage Robb not to break his oath and remind him of Ned’s honor. I think Robb would end up marrying the Frey girl
I think so too. In the Show Robb had the Problem that nobody was arround to talk Sense into him, Jon has a good Shot at being that Guy
Or Jon would. Tarrgarian King Trumps Lord of The North.
Judging from the thumbnail, if John didn't join the Night's Watch, Dany's rack would've been bigger
well hed be allowed allowed to have kids in that timeline ;)
I see no problems with that lmao
If was Jon I would have gone to White Harbor and worked for Wyman Manderly. Jon may be a bastard but he grew up educated and trained like a Lord. Manderly has a decent sized army and City watch that could use a Commander. Jon has options.
Wish Manderlys were more in GoT
He’s a bastard, what choice does he have??
@@rodgerskuchikiri7650 there's plenty of jobs in the realm for a person highly educated and skilled at fighting. Those jobs don't make for the most interesting stories, but still.
@@Guinnessdrnkr1234My point exactly dude. Being a bastard in this world is akin to being an incel. You don’t get play for shit and you get dragged for it. He literally couldn’t climb higher than he was in winterfell unless he went to the wall where the slate is clean.
Ramsay doesn’t go take out Winterfell without Roose’s consent
What about Robin’s consent?
@@OurHiltsHurt 😂😂😂😂
14:04 I think if Jon stays with Robb, doesn't go to the Iron Islands, then he will talk Robb out of betraying the Frey's. Jon is like Ned 2.0, so honorable to a fault, which will make him value the deal Catelyn made.
“I don won et”- John Snow, phd
But Book Jon does.
Well the westerosi trout population would be a lot higher...
Fact Check True
For all that season 6-8 ruined my boy (R+L≠J), he is Ned’s son in more ways than one. With Robb marching to free their father and his favorite sister in peril (Arya), you can bet he marches with The North. He’s definitely keeping Robb on the straight and narrow since he’s even more concerned about honor for obvious reasons. Hell Robb would probably use his newfound kingship to legitimize his half-brother, which would be pretty useful in securing the Karstarks allegiance once Catelyn goes full Karen.
R+L=J is still true tho
@@shantanutoraskar428 in the show maybe, no where else.
@@faroukshaaban1140 Guessing you're on the N+A=J theory for the promised prince?
@@LS-jv9hp nah, I’m just Anti-Targaryen.
@@faroukshaaban1140 Robert? Is that you. (though still a based position)
Major issue you guys don’t consider is red wedding doesn’t happen with Winterfell not captured, catelyn’s father doesn’t die . Only reason red wedding happen is because Rob marched backwards
The show kind of made the Starks more rustic than they where in the books. House Stark in the novels where not as wealthy as the Lannister's but they where a lot wealthier than the show.
First lets look at what they wear in the books which is nothing like there costumes in the show.
Side note Lord Rickard owned Steel armour and gold spurs.
When Arya is packing to go to Kings Landing she files where chest with silk and Sansa is fond of blue silk.
In Kings Landing Eddard looked nothing like what he did in the show, he always wore what he called his council silk. Ned also commissions a new uniform for his guards. Long cloaks of heavy grey wool decorated with white satin borders. Their cloaks are pinned with hands of beaten silver representing there Lords office as hand of the King. When he was on the Iron Throne Ned wore a white double embosomed with a grey dire wolf.
In Winterfell at the feast welcoming the King and Royal Family they all dressed grandly, including Benjen Stark. There are high born brothers in the Nights Witch from the north and south and I have never seen one dressed as well as Benjen at that feast, not even Lord Commander Mormont himself. He wears rich black velvet high black leather boots. His wide belt has a silver buckle and very heavy silver chain.
When Bran is attacked by Wildlings he is attacked for what he is wearing and he is second legitimate son and he is wearing a wolfs head broch of silver and jet. Jet is a gemstone and this is not a formal event this is just outriding in the woods.
Jon wears fine blacks and mole skin gloves which would not be cheap. At Winterfell harvest feast Bran is dressed quote, as befits a Prince and Robb wears a bronze crown and Catelyn describes her sons royal Kingly attire as quote magnificent.
Also Theon Greyjoy dressed very well when he was living with Stark in silk and Gold and Balon fears the Starks have made him soft. I doubt Greyjoy money was funding Theon's extravagant lifestyle. When he takes Winterfell he crowns himself Prince of Winterfell and orders and orders a new crown forged with black diamonds and chunks of gold. Where did he get the gold and diamonds if not from Winterfell's plundered treasury. And before Winterfell Bran and Luwin gave the Manderley's gold and build a royal fleet and mint coins.
At the Winterfell harvest feast
Now lets look at Winterfell it is much bigger and much grander than in the show this is a Castle built of granite which is an opulent martial.
Winterfell is a huge castle complex spanning several acres and encircled by two massive granite walls.
Remember the Castle is built over natural hot springs and as the wiki explains.
The water is piped through walls and chambers to heat them, making Winterfell more comfortable than other castles during the harsh northern winters.
Also from the wiki
Inside the walls, the complex is composed of dozens of courtyards and small open spaces. Weapons training and practice take place in those yards. The inner ward is a second, much older open space in the castle where archery practice takes place. It is located next to the broken tower. Inside Winterfell stands the inner castle, which contains the Great Keep and the Great Hall. Winterfell's towers and halls have diamond-shaped window panes.[6]
Inner Castle
The Great Keep is the innermost castle and stronghold of the castle complex. It was built over natural hot springs to keep it warm.[5] The Great Keep contains bedchambers for House Stark[5] as well as the solar of Lord Eddard Stark.[7] The building is connected to the armory by a covered bridge.[8] From a window on the covered bridge, one can see the entire yard.[9] Beneath the Great Keep are cellars with narrow windows.[10]
The Great Hall is used for receiving guests and the place where the household dines together, including the Lord of Winterfell. It is made of grey stone[11] and has wide doors made of oak and iron,[12] which opens to the castle yard, and a rear exit leads to a dimly-lit gallery.[12] Inside it can hold eight long rows of trestle tables, four to each side of the central aisle,[12] and the hall can seat five hundred people.[13] There is a raised platform for noble guests, and the walls are covered with banners.[11] The hall contains the high seat of the old Kings in the North. The seat's cold stone has been polished by the many lords who have sat upon it, and its massive arms are decorated with the carved heads of snarling direwolves.[14][15]
The small sept was built for Lady Catelyn Tully, a southron, by her husband, Lord Eddard.[16]
Courtyard and Other Buildings
The First Keep, a squat and round drum tower, is the oldest surviving part of the castle but is no longer in use. Around it lies a lichyard where the Kings of Winter would bury their loyal servants. The keep has gargoyles atop it.[17][6] Maester Kennet determined it was built after the Andals arrived.[18]
The broken tower, also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over 140 years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one rebuilt it.[19][20] It stands behind the old inner ward. Crows nest atop the broken tower.[19]
The ancient godswood of Winterfell has stood untouched for ten thousand years, with three acres of old packed earth and close-together trees creating a dense canopy, which the castle was built around. At the center of the grove stands an ancient weirwood with a face carved into it, standing over a pool of black water.[16] Across the godswood from the heart tree, beneath the windows of the Guest House, an underground hot spring feeds three small pools, with a moss-covered wall looming above them. The godswood is enclosed by walls, and is accessed by a main iron gate, or smaller wooden ones.
The Glass Gardens[21] is a greenhouse heated by the hot springs, which turn it into a place of moist warmth.[5] It is used to grow fruits, vegetables, and flowers.[9][22] The garden has green and yellow glass panes[10] locked in frames.[8]
The crypt of Winterfell, located near the First Keep, is where members of House Stark are buried. The underground crypts are long and narrow, with pillars moving two by two along its length. Between pillars stand the sepulchers of the Starks of Winterfell, the likenesses of the dead seated on thrones, with iron swords set before them to keep the restless spirits from wandering, and snarling direwolves at their feet. The crypts are deep under the earth, cavernous and bigger than the complex above ground. They are accessed by a twisting stone stair and a huge ironwood door that lies at a slant to the floor. The stair continues below to older levels where the most ancient Kings in the North are entombed.[23][17][10]
The Bell Tower is connected to the rookery by a bridge. The bridge is covered and runs from the fourth floor of the tower to the second floor of the rookery.[6][8]
The maester's turret is below the rookery.[24]
The Library Tower houses the library at Winterfell. A stonework staircase winds about its exterior.[8]
The Guards Hall is in line with the Bell Tower, and further back, the First Keep.[6]
Winterfell has undercrofts and cellars.[25] The castle also has dungeons,[25] including tower cells.[26]
Walls
Winterfell is a huge castle complex spanning several acres, defended by two massive walls of grey granite with a wide moat between them.[4] The outer wall is eighty feet high, while the inner is one hundred feet high.[4] There are guard turrets on the outer wall and more than thirty watch turrets on the crenelated inner walls.
The great main gates[7] have a gatehouse made of two huge crenelated bulwarks which flank the arched gate[8] and a drawbridge that opens into the market square of the winter town.[27][28]
There is a narrow tunnel inside of the inner wall stretching halfway around the castle, allowing travel from the south gate all the way to the north gate without interruption.[19]
The Hunter's Gate is close to the kennels and the kitchens. It opens directly onto open fields and the wolfswood, so people can come and go without having to cross through the winter town. It is favored by hunting parties.[4]
The East Gate[10] or east gate[29] leads to the kingsroad.[10] The Kingsroad Gate[7] may be another name for the same gate.
The Battlements Gate is a small arched postern in the inner wall. It crosses the moat between the walls but does not have a passageway through the outer wall.[7]#
When Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch he considers building a glass building but thinks it will be costly and for such fine glass he would need to look Myr and by the freedom of a few glass makers.
We know Sansa loves lemon cakes and lemon trees do not grow naturally in the north importing lemon seeds to Winterfell from the reach or Doren would not be cheap. My guess would be the seeds came form Doren as one need only sail up the narrow sea than the up the White Knife.
Finally Maester Luwin has his own turret and mentions having servents of his own. The Starks top servants have servants
Not as wealthy as the Lannister but it clear Ned and Robb after him where unlike in the show 2 of the wealthiest man in the world.
Yes, everything is smaller and more provincial in the show. The Seven Kingdoms are each large polities themselves, the Lords Paramount are Kings in all but name.
Bro took the time to write all that.
Yeah it is often forgotten that the Starks even as lord paramounts are still defacto rulers of the North. The largest kingdom in westeros.
I ain’t reading allat
@@cullubbowzer8095 you don't belong here
I think it’s more likely that rob would send John to the storm lands to treat with renly and stannis meaning little finger wouldn’t make a deal with Cat to let Jamie go
What if the hand of the king Ned gets Jon to join the Gold Cloaks instead of the nights watch. Jon ends up warning Ned about Slynt's betrayal.
I love that the mention of Robb getting his nut because he's sad about his brothers dying has become a recurring bit. Proud of that one.
In my mind, there was no way Jon could have survived being in between the cavalry charge at the battle of the bastards.
By the grace of Blood Raven. Warging into each horse
Because D&D made a lot of stupid choices for the show this was one of them
I think if Jon is in Robb’s council, Theon doesn’t get picked to go to negotiate with Balon. Jon does not like or trust Theon, and Robb is much closer to Jon than he is to Theon, so I’d imagine that if both Jon and Cat are against it Robb would relent.
Robb wanted a navy to attack lannisport. He needed the greyjoy fleet because manderlys fleet was on the opposite end of Westeros and would have to sail all the way around. I think hed send theon whether jon was there or not. Dont forget, Catelyn told him not to send theon too and robb did it anyway. To be honest, I dont know that jon wouldve been able to sway robb on a different course since we see catelyn trying plenty up until the red wedding. Who knows. In a second read through it became glaringly apparent how stupid robb and his mother really were, and that their cause seemed to be doomed.once tywin started writing letters. Jon wouldnt have changed the outcome, he woulda just died.alongside his brother.
Robb Stark is able to conquer the seven kingdoms with Jon Snow watching his back
If Jon never went Norf, Red Wedding would never happen. Coz he'd be the one keeping Rob's balls empty.
Canonically correct
They arent gay
Jon is targeryan tho so fucking relatives is expected (has happened)
Even if it's only a cousin/adoptive sibling
And don't say it's just a joke
I am extremely homphobic and will not see the one true heir to the iron throne be insulted (Robb can be insulted as he betrayed Walder the gracious)
Why are you typing like you have been at the wall for 10 years and why does it fit in Alisser Thorn's voice.
I don’t know if John would allow Rob to go back on his word with the freys.
Being a bastard he always tried to emulate Ned the most. And Ned doesn’t like oathbreakers. I could see a duel happening between them not to the death but John would likely win Rob is better in the saddle John with the sword.
Loses the duel has an unhappy marriage but now the freys are in line for the new growing northern kingdom. The freys actually mobilize there army for once giving I believe 5-6k more men.
I also think the freys being in the camp could maybe sense the treachery of the boltons and stop it.
I think it was somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000.
Regarding the question of whether the Iron Islanders kill Jon, I think it comes down to whether it happens the way you two laid it out.
The wise course of action would be to send Jon INSTEAD of Theon, not in addition to him.
Jon would be an emissary from Robb, delivering the King in the North’s proposal. Jon is high-status (so the Greyjoys won’t take offense), but he is bastard-born (so the Greyjoys wouldn’t see him as a valuable hostage).
Then you could entice Theon’s father to do the smart play, either out of fear for Theon’s safety, or as a promise to release Theon if the Greyjoys sack Lannisport. So Robb would have the option of intimidation or reward - but only if he holds onto Theon and sends Jon to negotiate.
At least in the books, by the time theon reaches pyke, balon has called his banners and is readying his fleet to invade the north with robb marched south. Had Jon showed up instead of theon, I think they wouldve just killed him. I dont recall the greyjoys ever being hostage takers.
Jon in the books is smarter than Robb and also distrusts the iron born.
so i feel he would make Robb marry Yara/Asha thus securing the biggest threat wholesale to the north.
Secondly the Boltons only agree to betray Robb after the Karstark and Frey betrayals by Robb.
, these are things that Jon would have easily been able to foresee as by the time they get to the Twins Robb's married into the Greyjoys and Walder has to choose between Theon Jon and Edmure and i think in this scenario he picks Edmure.
and simply Balon doesnt rebel, Winterfell isnt burned, and after the battle of Breakwater Bay Robb takes Casterly rock and Jon lays siege to Kings landing, meanwhile with the victories of the two and Cat help convince Lysa to join them.
easy
Honestly, this could genuinely lead to the actual true king winning.
Stannis is probably going to have the North as a firm ally and the Riverlands as allies. He's likely to have parts of the Stromlands, too, still loyal to him.
Since I could see the Crironge Islanders beating the Frays, sadly enough.
This will lead to Riverlands probably rallying under Stannis as a way to be protected from the Greyidiots. This is because they are probably led slightly better...
Little Finger might decide that allying with Stannis is clever if he doesn't want Jon coming after him for having Sansa.
Also, because once Tyrion kills Tywin, since that's probably still gunna to happen, the Lannisters will only have Kevin as a competent military leader, who is probably already having to deal with the Iron Mongers.
House Tyrell could also be busy with some Legit worthless islands. But they're the only real opponents to Stannis ngl.
This is assuming if the Salt Lickers go after actually decently rich places that they could get a lot of stuff from and not the North.
Some Greyterds probably do go under Theon because that's how those sea rats are. Giving him some shred legitimacy if he manages to earn his way with the "iron price."
Regardless, Stannis is simply going to have more backup and be able to delegate tasks to Jon in which he can deal with threats, too.
Possibly meaning that Jon, ironically, still gets sent near the wall, this time to deal with the Wildlings. In which Jon would probably have it handled, especially if Stannis can teach him a thing or two.
So yeah, honestly, I think Stannis has this-
Oh god, no... Dumberys has cheat codes...
Yeah... Only real hope is if Jon can control one if you believe he's a tar or Stannis manages to get ahold of that mind control thing...
Edit: Boltons probably still betray and attack Winterfell, since Bran would be their enemy from total control of the NORRRRF.
Bran and Rick Sanchez gets away and become useless.
Jon probably now Stark and Stannis come in and probably easily beat Ramsay or Rouse (No discredit to Rouse but he isn't standing up to a Stannis with Jons knowledge of Winterfell.)
Plus it'll remind people of the Rebellion since it's like Bobby B and Ned reincarnated fighting alongside each other.
Only thing I'd want to add is that Stannis is a third generation targ (Jon a second) and I think it would be funny if they stole two of Danerys dragons 😭
So immediate thoughts before watching the video. 1) Jon does in fact stay in winterfell. Robb is lord of winterfell, loves Jon a whole lot, and Catelyn won’t dare override his decision to let Jon stay. 2) Jon and ghost are legends right alongside Robb and Grey Wind. The young wolf and the white wolf. 3) Robb sends Jon ALONG with Theon. Though this may lead to Jon’s death by treacherous greyjoys, but that’s boring writing. If Jon is not killed, doubtful Theon gets the balls to fully support his family and would return with Jon with the bad news. The north is still invaded by the greyjoys though. 4) Jon would absolutely take the fall for Robb and whatever marriage issues Robb faces, solving that issue for Robb as well as being Robb’s easy choice for an heir. The red wedding probably never happens, but if it does, Jon and ghost would ensure Robb’s survival at the least.
Jon would be killed on pyke. The shows isnt as explicit, but in the books when theon arrives most of the fleet is waiting at harbor because balon wants to invade the north. There was never a chance to bring him to Robb's side because as soon as robb lead his host south, balon was calling his banners to move in on the unprotected north. As I dont think the greyjoys take hostages, theyd likely just kill jon to keep word from reaching robb of their plans.
If he stays at Winterfell. Catelyn will make sure an "accident" happens to Jon. Luwin is from Riverrun and in Catelyn’s pocket, Jon won't survive Winterfell.
Outstanding job!!
What if suggestion - Tyrion is 6’4” tall
Wouldn’t have happened because rob goes to war a few months later so he would need Jon
Little idea I cooked up earlier today, what if Bloodraven wasn’t actually the bastard of Aegon IV, and was actually the son of Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers
Jon "😮😮 The Wall needs me? I'm the Night's watch top guy" Snow.
At least he learned where to put it with his aunt and woke up her dragon 🐉
Hes just such a nasty physical beast
Ser Davos fades into obscurity
Jon should have joined Craster
They would have been unstoppable
@@OurHiltsHurtimagine how many White walkers thry could pump out. He would count him in as one of his wives
I could see Robb legitimizing Jon then leaving him to be Castellan of Winterfell and making that an interesting alternate scenario against the grey joys
I really like the idea of Jon being sent to capture Jaime and later executing him after the red wedding
I think Jon just fights his way out back to Robb and informs him of what happened, if they do attack. Also, I think this is one of the rare moments Jon would ever agree with Catelyn in and advise Robb to not even send Theon to his father. Jon doesn't execute Jaime because of his possible usefulness of getting his sister(s) back. Yes he finds Arya, for sure. Ghost for sure would be able to sense her so near. Also, Jon, at least book Jon would 100% take up the mantle of King of the North.
Ned’s other mistake was not telling catelyn about Jon’s true identity. She could’ve helped keep him safe instead of trying to make life hard and miserable for him while maintaining her perfect image of her husband.
The thing is Catelyn treating Jon the way she did inadvertently protected him because no woman in Westeros would treat their husband's bastard kindly if that same bastard was raised with their legitimate children and treated their family's future. If Catelyn hadn't treated him that way, then it would've made people question why and would've made people question if Jon was actually Ned's bastard, putting him in danger of being found out.
Stinker bingus- stinker bingai is now forever in my lexicon.
As it should be
Love the fact that "bingus" is pluralized like a proper Latin word
i think jon could gain some respect from others in the north as a respectable fighter and maybe a bit of a tactician during the war but after that it gets a bit more in the air because it depends on what he learns and when. For example the jamie scenario theres a large possibility he would use him as a bargaining chip because he can think in long terms and theres a chance bits of jamie could rub off on him but its hard to tell without going full fanfic
I Don't think Robb breaks his oath if Jon is with him. He would be a constant reminder of his fathers single dishonor and he would avoid it at all costs.
This may be the best channel on TH-cam
I think if Jon never joins the Watch he definitely goes south to Kings Landing with Ned, watches his back, learns about being hand of the king and politics and probably saves him from being killed. He’s kind of like Ned’s assistant and he may even learn of Cersei’s bastard kids and Ned probably tells him the truth about his mother in Kings Landing.
Remember in the books Tywin Lannister was in contact with Jane Westerlings mom, and Jamie was supposed to give her some kind of reward for what happened. So probably the mom orchestrated something a little bit
A few things for this what if to consider.
1.) I remember reading that Ned was planning to take Jon to kings landing but Cat was arguing with him about it. 2.) Jon and Theon would have to fight Brienne and Jaime's cousin Sir whatshisname in order to get Jaime. 3.) If they get Jaime the only place they can head to is Riverrun and they'll have to duck around The Brave Companions and Brotherhood without Banners to make it there. 4.) Ghost for sure going to link up with Nymeria while they are running around the Crossroads area.
5.) Book Theon and Jon hated each other if I remember correctly so Theon would definitely kill Jon to prove his loyalty to his father. 6.) Rob only names Jon his heir if he thinks Bran and Rickon dead so something would need to happen to them.
So I think same stuff happens except Jon stays by Rob no matter what and only leaves his side to find Jaime and he probably never does get there and ends up either running with the army of Wolves because of Ghost and Nymeria and perhaps doing so they find Arya. Or Jon joins up with the Brotherhood.
Just discovered your page yesterday! Huge fan already!
I personally see rob giving Jon the command of the forces he gave to Roose Bolton, with no communication system like he had a harenhall. I think it would be much more difficult for roose to plan the red wedding.
I think it would have been a massive impact if Ned stopped Jon from going by telling him the truth about his parents.
I think that would change his path
“Water logged underwear” made me laugh soooooo hard
I’ve had this talk pretty in depth with some friends and my brother before. Ignoring the wall, which realistically would be a massive issue now, the general consensus always seems to be that events go as they normally go, with the only real difference being Jon is legitimized in person as a Stark and the current heir to Winterfell.
The real convergence always seems to be the Red Wedding and the conclusions that always pop up are either:
A.) Jon marries a Roslin in place of Robb, Walder is still angry, but content enough with the potential King in the North should Robb fall without an heir. At the least it would be the families most notable marriage in their history.
B.) The Red Wedding still happens regardless of if it’s Jon or Edmure marrying Roslin, Jon dies.
C.) The Red Wedding happens, Jon is not there. A bit iffy, on why he’s not there, but it’s not impossible I suppose. After all Edmure is Robb’s uncle, not his, guess there’s nothing technically compelling him to go, especially with Cat’s hatred of him.
I’ve even had one friend say if Jon was with Robb he could potentially preserve Robb’s honor by marrying Jeyne himself so Robb could still follow through on his deal with the Freys, without having to abandon the potentially pregnant Jeyne.
I’ll admit I do kinda like that one even if there isn’t much to really go on with it, as it kinda mirrors Ned’s own actions in a way and isn’t entirely out of character.
All this becomes irrelevant in a way tho if you account for the wall. Does the Nightswatch even survive long enough for Stannis to break Mance’s army? If not do Wildlings simply take over the north? How much worse is the eventual army of the dead situation without Jon?
I think quite likely that without Jon’s double desertion to warn Castle Black of the impending attack that they fall quite easily.
If Jon went to the Greyjoys they would take him hostage. But if Jon didn't go to the Wall then the wildlings are not let through, no one is saved from Hardhome, and the army of the Dead will overwhelm the Wall. Without a dragon because Daenerys doesn't come North. But the kingdom gets no warning and the army of the dead takes all Westeros. Daenerys and her dragons fly back to Essos. As well anyone with ships.
Please make a video about what if Tyrion Lannister was sent to the knights watch in the trial ❤❤❤
That’s a good one
Crasters my dad and I'm a good wife to him 😊
Lucky
Our husband keeps us safe…
I always like the clevage in thumbnail 😂
Balon is friendly with Jon but declined to aid. He learns Robb had left little to defend winterfell. Grayjoys invade winterfell. Jon and Theon march north to reclaim winterfell while bran heads north of the wall. Robb continues south
If John doesn't join the watch he'd no longer be known as the white wolf, he'll be known by ladies everywhere as the Lord of Licks
long claw be renamed long tongue pretty soon ;)
If Jon doesn't join The Watch, Robb may not become King in the North. They march south and join Stannis' forces.
if jon was there rob would never marry jeyn westerling as he only did it because he was lonely and felt honor born but jon would remind him of his oaths. then jon would eventually split from rob to reclaim winterfell while robb continues on and add stannis to his army in an alliance so it would be. whats left of stannis army+ the north + iron bank vs tyrells and lannisters. meanwhile jon would go back kill theon and wage his own war to fight against the iron born( in this scenario no redwedding because no oaths were broken and roose won't betray robb without assurance from tywin which tywin cant give since robb is alive)
8:03 this Robb-Cat dialogue had me in stitches omg
Jon rides south with Robb and dies in the Red Wedding alongside everyone else but is the one brought back to life by Beric since Arya wolf dreaming into Nymeria brings his body to the riverbank instead of Catelyn’s
Here's bulletins of what I believe happens:
•Jon sees a vision or dream of a Wolf and a Lion in combat, this creates worry for him and concern for his family so he puts off going to the wall, OR he just overhears or is convinced by Rob and Arya not to go while Bran just got injured. This puts off time enough for Jon to guard and watch Bran with Rob until he recovers or his worries are subsided from his dream by Bran recovering.
•After Bran wakes up, Jon goes to join up with Rob after Bran convinces him too, Rob who went on a war path a week before hand upon news of Ned's Imprisonment told Jon to guard Bran while he is away, before gathering houses and heading south. Jon w Ghost travels solo south to link up with Rob finding information on where he is through roadside inns and towns, he doesn't experience much conflict on the road he just travels slower then Rob due to needing to be wary. During this Rob will get notice of Ned's death and continue his full war path, Jon would still be unaware but is perhaps plagued with a vision of of Headless wolf causing him to speed up his journey.
•At this point Rob is in a similar scenario as before winning skirmishes through hit and run tactics using the terrain and land advantages and is getting ready to request aid from the Iron Islands with Morale at a high, but just after being crowned "King in the North" Jon arrives to his camp not giving Theon the ability to request he himself goes to the Iron Islands momentarily. Rob will take a moment to explain whats going on to Jon informing him of Ned's death and Sansa and "Aryas" imprisonment. This is when Rob takes Jon out of a rage filled mind and stears him towards the main goal of Revenge but with cool heads. This is when Theon will request to seek aid from the Islands to avenge Ned, Rob will have Jon go with him to keep minds clear and focused.
•Jon and Theon proceed to go to the Iron Islands like you both believed but in this scenario I think Jon actually gets hit on by Theons Sister this time around after Jon ridicules Theon for his reckless nature attempting to go for her in a sexual manner. She would laugh it off in typical fashion not really caring much but takes a little interest in Jon and flirts with him, none of which is really returned but Jon does end up kissing her but pushes back and focuses on the task rather then trying to escalate it.
•Jon and Theon arrive on the Islands, Guest right is respected for it is a very serious thing to break in Westeros however Jon is treated like complete trash by all of them and even offered decayed food instead of actual food. Jon just endures the hate similar to as he did on the wall and with Caitlyn. This kinda pisses Theon off though and is the reason he doesn't really listen to his father or attempt to get alone. He and Theon eventually leave after failing to secure a alliance. Then one of 2 things happen either Yara attempts to accompany them with the plan to try and bring Theon back or She just stays and joins in the raids in the riverlands. Imo she would go with Theon and Jon. But I can see the alternative.
•Jon and Theon w Yara go to join up with Rob, Yara saying "Hey atlesst you got 1 Grayjoy to help HAHA", during the time they were away Rob basically does the exact same as he did before goes simp mode, Caitlyn makes a ridiculous engagement without his consent and it leads to the same tensions with the Frays. I dont think Walter would accept Jon as legalized unless Rob takes Kings Landing either so that wouldn't work as a option. So the betrayel still happens with Rob and tensions are high but they still are able to cross the twins and go forward. Jon joins up with Rob again but they take a boat w Yara sailing it not heading towards the twins but a planned future encampment Rob told Jon about and via Ghost and sleep Warging he is able to confirm that it is the correct place to go.
•Jon arrives in the camp the day after Caitlyn releases Jamie out of fear for Sansa and Arya, it could be speculated she wouldn't be so hot headed due to Bran not dying however in my mind they would end up "dissapearing" in a sense due the 3 eye raven maybe Meera and her brother convinces him to leave with visions perhaps, causing Caitlyn to worry about kidnapping and such which still has her lose her emotions. Rob heated informs Jon about the idiotic move his mother made and tasks Jon to go and track down the Kingslayer and bring him back, Brianne in this scenario is still accompanying him as well. Theon and Yara go with Jon to track down the Kingslayer, Yara curious about the women knight, and Theon just basically going along with Jon out of obligation.
•On the track towards finding Jamie, Yara is able to convince Theon to leave Jon and go back to the Islands, shes been slowly trying to convince him and uses the task saying Rob sees him as nothing but a errand boy for a bastard. Theon and Yara leave in the middle of the night, Yara wants to kill Jon but Theon says no but warns of Ghost as a excuse for it. Jon would wake up and realize he's been robbed and stranded by Theon and Yara who took most of his supplies and any valuables only leaving a Dagger for a weapon even taking his sword. Jon would be enraged but he pushes it aside and goes back towards the task of tracking Jamie.
•a differ again between us, I believe due to Ghost Jon actually finds Jamie before he loses his hand. He finds him shortly after Brianne and Jamie have their duel.
•Jon then conflicts with Brianne saying Rob tasked him with bringing Jamie back but she resists due to orders from Caitlyn which causes Jon to instantly dislike her to a degree due to her swearing herself to "that women". However eventually tensions stop after Jon says he can help her get his sister's back and will join in the task but only if she does what he says. Jamie then is prisoner to both of them as they take a alternate path w Ghost keeping them away from Enemy patrols due to senses and other factors. Jon or Brianne would alternate into Inns to gather supplies.
•On the path Ghost would find Arya in my vision. For his senses would be able to due to being a Direwolf sensing her presence. Ghost would bolt off and cause panic for Jon as Ghost just charges into a forest. Ghost would tackle Arya catching her off guard causing her to panic due to his silence but causing her to burst into slight joy realizing its Ghost which means Jon.
•Jon would inform Arya of all thats been going on and have a good reunion, Arya would want to murder Jamie but Jon stops her. Jon would then task Brianne with guarding Arya and bringing her back to Rob and Cait. While Jon continues on with Jamie and Ghost. Jamie would think he could maybe take Jon out but he's cautious and doesn't attempt to due to Ghost.
From here things can vary quite drastically and I'm not quite sure what would happen if Jon finds out Rob died and if he would continue to go to Kings landing or not, I do think though he would somewhat bond with Jamie on the road trading storys, banter and meals. I think Arya and Brianne would get captured by the brotherhood in this scenario as well, perhaps Brianne distracts them for Arya to escape though but I'm unsure
Part 2:
In my mind this is what happens next:
•Jon while Jamie is prisoner has another vision this time of 2 headless Wolves. This concerns him and causes him to head back to Rob with Jamie in tow. This angers Jamie saying they need to continue on the road to Kings Landing trying to convince him about Sansa, Jon says go himself, Jamie can't due to still being bound and pursues after him begrudgingly trying to get him to remove his chains. This is when Jon would head towards a inn with Jamie and Ghost and overhear the news about Rob from over hearing 5 drunk Bolton soldiers laughing about the red wedding. Jon in a moment of rage would attack them taking out one quickly but then getting overrun by 4 of them, Jamie in this moment would watch him getting outnumbered but very begrudgingly would stab a soldier in the back with a longsword from the 1st killed Soldiers person ironically being the one in cannon who cuts his hand off. Jon then surprised and thanks to the surprise is able to take on the other 3 Drunk Soldiers with Ghost only taking a slight slash injury to his person and some bruises. Jamie would then demand the Keys and say they are "even" and if he wishes to die in a rage fueled revenge spree feel free but don't do it while he's still got his key. Jon would then take a moment and collect himself and Jamie and him would have a emotional moment about not letting your emotions control you like it did Jamie all those years ago and to think rationally.
Jon would thank him but still go North after Jamie confirms to Jon that if freed he would still uphold his promise and save Sansa. Unsure on where to send her after but assures she will be safe.
•Jon would then head back North, Jamie south. During this time I think the Lannisters will again have captured Arya but this time seriously wounding Brianne in the process thinking shes a Remli remnant and not realizing shes Arya. Causing them to be hated by her even more I think she will escape but Brianne is captured and brought back to KL for ransom to her father.
•Jon when he arrives North will still want revenge but this time on the Frays more then anything. He will like you said Rally the north due to his letter but before going to do any major Battle Jon will be approached via Raven by the Nights watch requesting aid against the 100,000 man army of the king beyond the wall. He will see this as a honorable move and a way to gather more support and rush his forces of say 3,000 men to the wall.
•Upon Arrival however Jon will find out the Nights watch has already been saved thanks to Stannis the Mannis. Stannis would instantly demand he drop his arms and say his intentions. Upon hearing them Stannis would relax somewhat but Mallasandra would become intrigued by Jon sensing something about him due to his blood. She would whisper to Stannis a suggestion of a alliance. Stannis would have already been thinking the same but demand Jon bend the knee forming a alliance between their houses like the old rebellion and promising to legitimise him.
•In this version Jon wouldn't have any real reason to deny it except for 1, he would demand for Revenge against the Frays. Stannis would agree sometime after Winterfell and the North is retaken and only then.
•Now with Jons 3,000 additional men all familiar with the Northern environment this will be enough to secure Winterfell. However there is 2 routes now, 1.) Stannis requests Jon to go recruit wildlings to bolster their number, potentially getting a Hearthome moment and more bodys for Stannis's Army and waits to leave until Jon returns. Or they just attack Winterfell then and there.
John dies on the iron Island, but becomes a drowned man
I feel like Jon would actually side with Catlyn about the iron islands and Theon wouldn’t end up being sent at all. Without Theon’s “coup” in Winterfell and with Jon also there, that’d encourage more loyalty from the North as a whole, they may even still end up putting a Borathean back on the throne before marching back north. With Jon also being fully recognized into the family, him marrying the Frey girl definitely would’ve been a step up from what happened. I don’t think there’s a remotely strong enough base for the Boltons to revolt in that situation. I’m fairly confident this would stop the Red Wedding from even happening and likely could even end the whole war before it even begins.
Kinda think this video would've been more interesting if ya'll had spent more time discussing how Jon might've change Robb's strategy. If he's just Robb's second in command what kind of council does he give, he might immediately sway Robb to kneel before Stannis, maybe instead of Catelyn going to parley Jon does so. Perhaps if Jon is leading a force separate from Robb, he might improve the relationships between Robb and some of his bannermen. Maybe Rickard Karstark is spared? Maybe, Robb sends Jon to be his rep with the Tully's and Jon constantly has to butt heads with dumb dumb Edmure?
(How does Jon's (semi) friendship with Tyrion come into play)?
What if your mother and father never met?
Who said they did?
I'd like to think about if Jon went to Kings Landing with Ned to keep an eye on Arya and Sansa and what his trek home would be like, what groups he may join to avenge his dad starting from the south working his way back north, maybe even with Gendri in tow, as a second generation Ned and Robert on a tear.
If John captures Jaime, wouldn't that prevent or prolong the red wedding, cause Jaimy and Roose Bolton more or less make the deal initially. Jaimy convinces Bolton that his father will have his back.
Man that would have changed so much. With book Jon's sound strategical advice it would have made Robb even more deadly on the battlefield. Jon could have potentially prevented Robb from simping, put dad of the year Walder Frey in his place, told him not to trust Theon, and probably gotten him to keep Catelyn in Winterfell. Or at the very least if Catelyn had still joined them and let Jaime free he could have convinced Robb to send her to the wall where she belongs 😂
lol uncle benjen trying to put the moves on Jon. THE NIGHTD WATCHMAN OOOOOOOOWAAAAAHAAAAA from it’s always sunny in Westeros
There are like a hundred possible options how the plot might change with Jon in it, BUT if we do get all the way to the Red Wedding, I don't think Jon is there to die. At that point, it would be a Tully-Frey affair and I don't see a reason for Jon to be invited. It's probably enough the Tullys extend their hospitality to him at Riverrun (although I see him staying with the men in tents) but why invite him to Edmure's wedding? And why would he insist on being there? There would be no reason to suspect trouble, so I can see Robb leaving him behind to keep peace and maybe act as a quasi sworn sword to Jayne? It would be an interesting plot twist if after the news reached them, Jon tried to smuggle Jayne out of Riverrun and take her to safety someplace up north? We could have another pair of travellers (like Jaime and Brienne) trying to get somewhere. And if Jayne was pregnant...
1) Jon marches south with Robb.
2) Jon attends Tully funeral in Riverrun (despite Catelyn not wanting him there).
3) Jon convinces Robb to not execute Lord Karstark.
4) Robb has enough men to take Casterly Rock without the Freys.
5) Roose is too scared to backstab Robb unless it's a rigged setting (like the Red Wedding).
6) Lannisters are in shambles with no Rock, no Jaime, and no gold mines.
7) No Red Wedding.
8) Tyrion doesn't attempt his stupid "capture Casterly Rock" plan and Daenerys doesn't lose her Westerosi armies.
9) No dragons go North of the Wall for a stupid zombie kidnapping plan.
10) The Wall keeps the Army of the Dead out because they have no dragon to melt the Wall.
11) Jorah is still alive because there's no battle at Winterfell.
12) Jorah convinces Daenerys to not burn down King's Landing.
13) King Robb and Queen Daenerys team up to take King's Landing.
14) Robb pledges the North to Daenerys in exchange for her heir being a Stark (because she cannot have kids).
15) Brandon Stark eventually inherits the throne and allows the North to claim independence.
So, the same ending - but all the cool characters survive!
Seeing that these what if are getting the views. Might I suggest one for OUR boy the TRUE HEIR Vizzy 3?
Oh yeah that is a must
There would never be a nights watch rebellion and CRASTER WOULD STILL BE ALIVE!!!!
I think John snow would used as the marriage partner for the Frey’s avoids locking the Frey’s into the heirs family, while still maintaining the chance of taking the throne in the future
So there are some things I dissagree & agree with:
1. If there is any reason why John might not join the night's watch immediatly, it's because he follows his Uncle Benjen's advice that he should wait a little longer and expierence the freedom of life he has, before joining the watch.
2. John was always supposed to join the watch, as his uncle Ned believes it to be the safest path for him, to keep him keep his parental lineage a secret. But it didn't have to be at that moment.
3. John would never be allowed to go to King's landing as Ned would fear Robert might find out (which is also why John was send to sit in a dark corner when Robert arrived at winter fell, and not in the line of introduction).
4. Catelyn wouldn't send John away. She literally wouldn't act any different towards him, she can't send him away because of Ned not liking it, and Rob would likely help John out as well (probably even giving him some responsibillity as well. Which might impact whenever or not John will ever join the nights watch).
5. John would go immediatly with Theon and Rob.
6. John and Theon's relationship isn't great. Also Theon would still give into peer pressure, John can't stop him from that. It's Theon's whole character at that point of the game.
7. Yes. John would be killed if he joins Theon to the Greyjoy house. He might be held captive to further pressure the Stark household, but I doubt that since he isn't a trueborn, but a bastard, so he isn't seen as valuable. They only really kept nobles as captives for ransom and leverage.
8. And I will stop there, since there is no way John would join Theon to go to the Iron Islands. So the rest of the video appears to not even be worth watching as you kept going with that idea. Which has pretty much a 0 percent chance of happening.
I think that the war could be very different. John would be against Rob flirting and sleeping with Jane (and I think John would be at his brother/cousin side during the war. To keep him safe and all that). I think this, because of John's opinion about bastards. And I would like to think that having John tell him this is wrong, since he is engaged and the consequences (remember, John is also a great tactician like Robb, but while Robb is more skilled in the long game, John is so in the short game). Remembering he is engaged by John, Rob likely wouldn't destroy the alliance with the Frey. Which would be beneficial in the short term, keeping the Lanistars engaged up north, ensuring Stannis takes King's landing etc. But the problems aren't solved yet. John will not stop or speak up against making John king of the North, thus creating enemies with Stannis. And at this point, I think the war is between them.
Now, Dorne will remain neutral untill the Golden Company invades Dragonstone. But what about the collapsing house Lannistar? I think Tywin will likely try to bend the knee to Stannis, hoping to spare House Lannistar the fate of execution and it's survival to be rebuild another day. He would also side with Stannis over the Starks, as the Starks would be less likely to forgive him for the death of Ned. And Tywin might try to mediate between Stannis & the North (to get his heir back safe and sound). Tywin could also try to create peace with Rob, to get his heir back safe and sound, but not sure if that would work. These houses despite eachother quite a bit, and the death of Ned at the Lannistar hand would rub a lot of salt in the wounds. So I think option 1 is more likely. Now about the negotiations. Stannis would demand Rob to bend the knee and rejoin, and I think Rob would do this, IF, his sisters are returned to him, and the people responsible for Ned's death are punished. Which Stannis would agree with no problem, Tywin would likely get his handicapped heir Jaime back as well as part of this deal. I also think Rob would kneel here, because the Greyjoy's need to be dealt with at this point, and winter is coming (aka, the men need to tend to the farms for food).
But what I am more worried about is if any problems would arise due to small acts. I don't think Joffrey can escape, and even if he did, it wouldn't matter at all. They lost at this point, and nobody will support him at this point. Even house Lannistar under Tywin would capture and send Joffrey to Stannis as an act of good faith and to gain favor.
I am more worried about Sansa. John will likely be send to search for Arya with a small group of soldiers of house Stark. Sansa however, is in a dangerous situation. She is in King's landing during the attack of Stannis and the fall of it. Meaning there is a very high chance she could be killed or harmed (ra[pe being very likely as that tends to happen in war). If this were to happen, how would this hurt the relationship between Rob & Stannis. If Sansa is killed and Arya is missing, Rob is a lot less likely to bend the knee, maybe even holding Stannis responsible for Sansa's death. If Sansa is hurt in any way, I still see Rob bending the knee, but demanding a wide investigation and the punishment of the people who did it.
House Stark would also likely get Ice back. The tyrells would try to get their daughter to marry Stannis as he is heirless. The Golden Company would attack Westeros, Stannis would have to fight them and Dorne (possibly also against Dany at this time or afterwards), and I think he would still win (at a steep price), but it's iffy. Since his country has just seen a destructive war, and he has little to no time to establish his position, varys is inside King's Landing and loyal to the Targaryans, Littlefinger is killed for treason, Dorne would leave the Kingdom and can't be conquered, Stannis is heirless and the last Baratheon in the line of succession (as far as I know), so his death (which is quite likely) would spark a civil war and a power vaccuum. Likely causing Westeros to be split up and divided again to some extend, or be ruled by the mother of dragons & the potential and highly unlikely Griff or Westeros would be the home of another civil war between Dany & Griff. One side with dragons, who will likely be the winner.
Jon pretends to side with the Iron Islands and secretly warns Rob. Then Jon sails back to Winterfell with Theon where a host of Stark bannermen is waiting. Jon switches sides and leads the bannermen against Theon. If Jon goes with Rob, he could have protected Rob so Rob doesn't get injured and Jane doesn't nurse him back to health. Therefore, Rob does not fall in love and marry Jane breaking his marriage pack oath with the Freys. At the very least, Jon could have been the voice of reason that kept Rob from making his biggest mistake ever.
Euron of the Night Watch: "They're not all bad. Some are farm boys looking for steady feed. Some's noble sons looking for glory."
I think that this alternative heads in the wrong direction to begin with.
If we presume that Jon's departure to the Night's Watch is delayed for whatever reason (maybe Benjen is waiting for Yoren to return to Winterfell with some fresh recruits), only for the Catspaw to attempt to kill Bran. This could then be the catalyst for Jon to change his mind and be the one that Catelyn and Robb decide to send to King's Landing in order to inform Ned. Remember, Cat wanted to send him away to King's Landing anyway, and this would be a perfect opportunity to do so. Also, being a bastard, Jon can be a lot less conspicuous than Cat around King's Landing.
As a result we don't have the capture of Tyrion (based on lies from Littlefinger, which we would not get in this case), which causes Ned to sustain an injury to his leg after the streetside brawl. Meanwhile, Jon is hanging around King's Landing learning what it truly means to be a bastard. But Jon may enter the Hand's tourney in the melee as a mystery knight in order to test himself, why not.
In the meantime, Yoren arrives in King's Landing and spreads word that Lord Commander Mormont has been killed in his bed at Castle Black, while Benjen has gone missing beyond the wall. Also, Ned learns from Yoren that Mance Rayder is amassing an army to assault the wall.
Then Ned falls out with Robert over wanting to kill Daenerys and buggers off home taking all his children with him, mulling over Jon Arryn's death. Ned, returns to Winterfell, and after a long jorney resumes his Lordship having figured out that Robert's heirs are bastards. Jon, having now returned to Winterfell with Yoren and seen the scum that have been recruited, realises that he doesn't want to join the Night's Watch. Also, they manage to reclaim Nymeria on the way home thanks to Jon and Ghost sniffing her out.
Ned, now knowing the truth of Jon Arryn's death, decides to send Jon to Stannis, in order to seek out his counsel on what best to do.
Ned now starts preparing for the inevitable clash with Mance Rayder (It still ends the same way, Ned is an excellent field commander) and Stannis now knows he has a backer should Robert die. But owing to the fact that Ned had not figured out the incest before he left, he has not warned Cersei and she has not killed Robert. Giving Ned and Stannis plenty of time to plot together and we know that even Varys has trouble finding things out on Dragonstone, giving these plots the utmost secrecy.
Once, Robert is taken out and Ned declares for Stannis, it is likely that the Riverlands and Dorne(because they hate the Lannisters) will also declare for Stannis. Whilst the Stormlands and the Reach may think about propping up Renly, they may hesitate now that Stannis has powerful backers, which gives time for Stannis to declare Renly his heir in the meantime to secure both of those realms. With the Vale likely remaining neutral in this scenario, Joffrey only has the Crownlands and the Westerlands to support him, likely leading to the Mannis sitting the Iron Throne.
Mance then attacks the Wall, Ned and Stannis come to the aid of the Night's Watch. Ned personally executes Mance, but hears what he and the other Wildlings have to say about the coming White Walkers. And preparations to withstand the long night begin.
After that, or other plotlines, who knows.
At least in the books. Ramsey gets captured and taken to Winterfell while disguised as Reek, if Theon doesn't betray the North then Winterfell isn't sacked. Every single ironborn officer that Theon meets tells him it's a bad idea, even after he does it no one wants to help him because they know they can't hold Winterfell. If Theon doesn't attack Winterfell, then Ramsey isn't released, Winterfell isn't sacked and the Boltons are left leaderless in the North, the two worst Stark characters continue to do nothing.
If the Red Wedding does happen and Jon does attend. It will probably be a double snare, Jon and Edmure would both be captured while the rest of the guests are killed. Since Rob legitimized Jon the Freys might try to use him as a puppet Warden of the North or at the very least a hostage. He would be even more valuable if the two worst starks are allegedly killed by Theon.
The Nights Watch likely lose the Battle of Castle Black. Jon wouldn't have been there to warn the Watch of the impending Thenn attack from the rear. Mole Town at least is caught unaware, Castle Black wouldn't get enough of an advance warning to set up barricades and create that trap at the staircase, if Jons thoughts are to be trusted the Thenns probably would have just attacked at night while the Watch was sleeping. If they somehow manage to push back the attack I doubt they would have held out long enough for Stannis to rescue them. I'm willing to bet that Stannis still crushes the wildlings handedly, but everyone at Castle Black is dead leaving I think around 2-3 hundred Nights Watch members left.
Stannis recruits the Wildlings, doesn't recruit the mountain clans, joins with the Umbers and attacks the Dreadfort. Jon suggests that this plan wouldn't work, but that wouldn't stop the Mannis.
The positives are jon would probably be married off to the frey chick, he could probably keep robb from marrying a minor noblewoman from volantis/bannerwoman of tywin lannister and perhaps push him towards a marriage alliance with the greyjoysl's(asha) or more likely the martell's(arianne) if not the tyrrell's(margaery) after renly dies against the lannisters, and he'd be a decent commander in robb's army, the negatives are he was instrumental for most of the events at and north of the wall so if not an army of wildlings bearing down on winterfell an army of corpses instead
I think an interesting point to look at (writing this before watching) is how or if the watch will win against the wildlings. In the books and show, Jon is the only reason they know of the wildlings host size and that there are many south already. The question is whether or not the watch would get that intel, because without it I think they would blatantly loose.
Assuming Theon still is sent to the Iron Islands and still betrays the starks, Jon would have been sent to retake Winterfell instead of Ramsey. Theon would have confessed that he didnt kill Bran and Rickon and that message would have been relayed to Robb. With Jon at Winterfell, Rickon would have also been returned there even if Bran is still heading north of the wall. With that in mind, Roose Bolton would continue to back the Starks as his men have also got Jaime Lannister in custody assuming that the Brienne/Jaime story has played out the same way. With Theon once again a hostage, the Greyjoys would likely leave the north and/or do as instructed. The red wedding does not take place and the Starks will likely march on Casterly Rock as planned after the Tully/Frey wedding. I expect further bargaining chips may have been included such as the promise of marrying either Rickon or Jon to a Frey girl as well. At that point you really then could go anywhere with what happens next
I think if Jon doesn't join the Night's Watch, he goes South with Robb, Catelyn stays at Winterfell.
Because Catelyn isn't there to broker the deal with the Freys, the Northern army goes to White Harbor instead. So no deal to be broken and no Frey betrayal means no Red Wedding. Instead the Starks sail south, unite with the Vale, maybe by agreeing to marry Sansa or Arya to Robin if they get them back.
Theon still goes alone to the Iron Islands. Theon still attacks Winterfell, but doesn't kill Catelyn or the boys. Catelyn refuses to leave Winterfell so Bran and Rickon never go North.
When Robb hears what happened at Winterfell, he sends Jon with some of the Stark soldiers to meet with Ramsay's Bolton troops and retake Winterfell. When the Ironborn realise they're boned, they trade their prisoners and Theon for an easy escape. With Jon there, Theon is executed, rather than tortured by Ramsay.
Jon taking back Winterfell is enough for Catelyn to forgive him, but not enough for him to stay. He's sent to the wall or to return to the army.
Arya still gets taken by The Hound, gets taken to the Vale as its closer and the Vale are allied with the North. Maybe she gets there before Robb sails South, maybe she gets there just after.
There's no Red Wedding, so the Boltons stay in their lane, the Starks hold Winterfell. But going to White Harbour and sailing South means before they can get to King's Landing they have to go past Dragonstone and therefore Stannis. Stannis after the Blackwater.
Maybe Stannis still puts Robb's name in the fire and Robb dies, or maybe Robb and Stannis unite against the Lannisters. Stannis might be willing to allow the North to be free if they bolster his claim, as he's lost most of his troops by that stage.
Jaime isn't released by Catelyn, so he's still a prisoner, he doesn't lose his hand, he's kept to trade for Sansa.
So the united alliance goes back to King's Landing for Blackwater 2: Electric Boogaloo. This time using Jaime as a pawn so they can't do the same wildfire trick. Trading prisoners goes poorly because Joffrey is Joffrey, and there's a big King's Landing royal rumble.
But none of the good fortune for the Starks matters because the North gets fucked by a giant Wildling army, the Night's Watch are defeated. Mance Rayder with all the wildling tribes will rape and pillage the entire North. And if they survive that, the White Walkers come in for round 2 and everyone is fucked.
I don’t think Jon executes Jamie because it’s stupid to kill such a valuable hostage and Brienne would probably be against it too
He wouldn’t kill Jamie, he’s smart and strategic like Rob. And remember Brien is there. Y’all forgot about her.
@1:20......Jon would have to leave. Cat is explicit in book one when she tells ned he has to take jon to kl too. Ned refuses because jon would be shunned at court, so cat then says she wont allow him to stay in winterfell with ned gone. Luwin then jumps in and says a solution may have presented itself since jon mentioned returning with benjen to the wall.
If Jon remains behind I think he would a a strong councilor for Bran, who could speak with Robbs authority to keep the north united. I can see him ralling the North to go push out the Iron Born.
It's funny how Ramsay Snow/Bolton (and the actors ofc 👌) did such a great job that ever since then, every single time I hear "Theon" all that always comes to mind a milliseconds after without fail is : Not Theon, Reek ! My name is Reek !! 😅
Do you guys agree that Sam is a walking L??
1000%
I think Jon would go down with Robb, events in the north would play out the same with Theon and then Ramsey taking Winterfell, and Rickon and Bran would be "dead". Jon would be sent to recapture the North, he then tells Robb about their brothers. In response to this and Jon retaking the North Robb legitimizes him and makes him acting lord of winterfell. If Rob decides to still be an idiotic and breaks his oath to the Freys he could possibly have Jonb be married to the Freys, tying them into the Starks bloodline.
awesome video
red wedding doesnt happen for several reasons but ill stick with the big two;
1. John would have the job of luring Tywin into the trap not Edmure thus it actually succeeds so no need to pull back through the twins.
2. John would not attend the wedding proper and more likely be hunting down Jamie in such a case the Frays would not take the risk as the heir to the stark throne would be out of reach making any attempt on Robbs life a death sentence.
really though if John stays he basically wins the north for Robb as his presence and ability make it impossible to take out the whole family at he red wedding thus making it unlikely to happen.
If you go back and read the chapters, Benjin tells Jon not to join, he is the only one saying no. It's that dam maester Luwin who got what he deserved. Luwin was the one that suggested Jon to the Wall. He was looking out for Catelynm, he was her maester at Riverrun. Dude got what he deserved.
Feel like an interesting storyline could be he goes south with his dad and helps him out down there for whatever reason idk. His dad tells him about his mum and dad, as roberts still alive there's no thoughts of taking the throne as hes the true heir. Hopefully in this storyline the king and stay alive for a bit longer.
If John was alive rob never dies, not only would he be another very level opinion regarding the iron islands and marriage but if he catches Jamie then the bultens never have their bargaining chip to get Lannister help and protection.