Agreed. Takes a bit more practice to sharpen a zero scandi without adding a micro bevel. Sabre is simple, just sharpen the secondary bevel. Most people that have a scandi probably create that micro bevel without knowing it so they get confused.
+Living Survival I agree. I could never understand why so many think sharpening a scandi is easiest. If you are not precise with a scandi then it will not be a true scandi very quickly. I would much rather sharpen a secondary bevel than a "0" degree any day and twice on Sunday.
+James Ritchie Exactly, That is what I love about the Scandi it has its own guide basically , it is so easy to sharpen which makes it my favorite grind. I can not say that about Saber or other grinds , the easiest and best grind to sharpen at least for me , and that is important in the field or home. If you can not sharpen your knife to a razors edge it is useless.
Great content I have a much simpler time sharpening a 0 degree grind and it takes much more effort on my part to properly sharpen a saber or flat grind finding that smaller secondary Grind takes some work.
William I really like listening to your videos. Heat treating is very interesting to me. Could you sometime fit into one of you videos some more about how your process differs from others and why you think yours is better, do you cryo treat and what is that all about. Without giving up any of your secrets of coarse. Thanks
+Vaughn Westerby Appreciate your video support. I do not cryo treat. I think the best answer for heat treat is to find out what works for your set up, climate and steel type used. Everyone heat treats differently and if I told how I do mine it may not work for anyone else due to my equipment and climate. The basic methods are found easily on the internet. I took the basic methods and after many trials and errors and bucket of blades found the best for me. It is a learning process that every knife maker has to put in the sweat and hours themselves. I have and will continue to give pointers but not willing to share everything;-)
hehehehe... I'm sitting here with the giggles from the "I should play for Dallas" comment... I already forgot what the rest of the video was about... hehehe... Merry Christmas, William.
Great information William. I am subscribed to blackie at blackoracle69 and he was just talking about you new knife. Thought I would hop over and learn a bit from you. Thanks mate.
All clear, but i have one question: Take that knife with the scandi grind and a secondary bevel. Are you saying that EACH time you sharpen it, you sharpen the secondary bevel AS WELL as the main scandi grind? That sounds like what you're saying, but I don't understand why you would sharpen the main grind each time.
Okay quick question.... a mora knife comes with a scandi grind on it. Then I've seen some pocket knives that also come with a scandi grind but there is a micro bevel. Some would say this micro bevel is added for a little bit of strength to prevent chipping. So what would a scandi with a micro bevel be called?
@@wcknives also I wanted to ask you if it is possible to change the grind of a blade. Can a person change a Hollow Grind to a sabre grind? Or would that remove too much metal
JackG79 you can change some grinds if you do not overheat the metal And loose the temper. If the blade changes color it was over heated. A hollow grind typically doesn’t have enough metal thickness above the cutting edge to change the grind unless you regrind the blade up past the secondary edge. A cross section of a hollow grind look like a hour glass so it is thinner in the middle of the blade.
ya I'm in for that William yrs ago old timers called that a flat grind of course scandi which myself I like I'd have all my knives ground scandi but anyways I agree on your opinions ATB ....tom
I own several scandi blades, and on the majority of them I put a very small micro-bevel to prevent the edge from chipping or rolling so much. Hard wood is just that HARD. A lot of zero grinds will roll or chip if the heat treat is off or the steel is not that great. Very good explanation by the way. Most of these guys who use the knife once then strop, use it again then strop are gonna wind up with a scandi-vex anyway.
Thank u sir for your again non profitable review which given many people knowledge and some other review doing your own steel vs steel retention test which many wont even do it; even they did, also not all willing to share...1 good song wont make the whole audience feel is a nice song. So just carry on what u are doing which many like me will appreciate. Thank u sir
I still don't understand the difference between the Saber and a Scandi with a micro-bevel -> for the latter, couldn't you only sharpen the micro-bevel (just like sharpening a saber) -> what would be the point of sharpening the primary of the scandi?
To keep the apex of the edge bevel thin. The more you sharpen the edge the thicker the edge apex will get and become more of a punch point for dense materials. The thinner the apex the better it will slice.
It seems like the problem or debate here is the confusion between a secondary bevel, and a micro bevel. I believe those 2 to be different... Although a micro bevel is technically a secondary bevel. IMHO a scandi, flat, saber, and convex with a secondary bevel can all have the same edge (if you set the secondary bevels the same angles). They'll cut the same, The main difference between them will be the "meat" of the knife above the secondary bevel, which will affect the slicing/cutting above the cutting area (secondary bevel) like you explained with a scandi forcing the leather apart while slicing VS.the flat. A micro bevel, if I'm understanding correctly, is pretty much just taking the very edge of a grind to a higher angle to strengthen the edge which is so slight you can even do with a strop. It seems the same as "rounding" with stripping too hard or at a steep angle, but a deliberate "angle" instead of a accidentally "rounding". Am I getting the whole separation here?
+Erik Robison They debate was if you place a secondary bevel on a scandi weather it be a micro or not then it was no longer a scandi. I do not agree and was explaining why I disagree. The difference is how it is sharpened determine the grind. If the primary angle is sharpened then it is a scandi, in my opinion. If the primary angle is not sharpened during edge maintenance then it is a saber. I agree with your definition of a micro bevel and the reasons why, it is to strengthen the edge. So in theory if you have a high scandi with a micro bevel to give it a bit more strength then you should have a very sharp cutting edge with less blade drag than a "0" degree. And you do. It will carve like no bodies business. Control is where I had some difficulty but someone else may not have that problem.
+William Collins (WC Knives) understood. Dude, love the videos, and how you test your own stuff to keep new and improved products! Good job, and keep doing what you do!
I would have just left it a high scandi without miccrobevel unlease the micro bevel is necessary to prevent chips and bad rolls on wood can't imagine what a supper high scandi would do with bitting
There is a difference in blade performance and yes the secondary bevel is to give the edge a bit more strength. If you get the chance you should try a high scandi grind. Appreciate your view.
I think people get caught way too much in terminology and political correctness. what's important is......does it work and accomplish the task you need it to do. sometimes you just have to leave it to the professionals. That's you William !!!!!!....PAPA DUKES
It might be a case of semantics, but I think of sharpening only in terms of the very apex of the blade. The sharpening process can involve the entire Scandi bevel, but the sides of the bevel will never be "sharp". I think one of the benefits to sharpening the entire Scandi edge, is that it thins the blade as you go up toward the spine. Not sharpening the entire edge leaves an increasingly thicker edge angle. Whoever the guy that makes Jacklore knives is, says that he also puts a micro bevel on his Scandi knives, and he's a bushcraft "purist"... LOL! Thanks for the video!
Frank Butta appreciate your thoughts. All makers that I know have some type of micro bevel for their Scandi blades. It creates a stronger edge. Even Ray Mears places a micro bevel on his knife at the end if you watch his sharpening video. For use in dense woods or game prep around bones this only makes sense. Appreciate your view.
William Collins Hi William! I'm in agreement with you regarding micro bevels, and just added a thought of my own (which I heard from someone else). The people who insist that a knife is no longer a Scandi grind if it has a micro bevel need to listen to you and other knife makers who make Scandi knives. As I said, the British guy who makes Jacklore knives (with a forever waiting list) demonstrates his micro bevel Scandi by pounding through a 3" oak branch, and then slicing paper like a razor. I enjoy your videos, so thanks again!
Out of all my knives the Scandi is the easiest knife for me to sharpen to a razors edge, not so with Saber or other grinds . I do not worry about outdoor sharpening a Scandi because I carry a diamond sharpener.
+Mark JG It just takes practice and you could sharpen other grinds to a razors edge. To play the what if scenario, what if you lost your knife and had to use someone else's knife that wasn't a scandi? Or what if you lost your diamond sharpener? not as easy to sharpen a scandi using river rocks as others grinds. I think all grinds has a function and place so we should not restrict ourselves to only one grind. Just my opinion.
Very well said you are right, well I am no expert on blade grinds, I like knives and I have a Lon Humprey Vanguard flat grind hammer forged knife , I have not used it yet. I heard Convex grinds are very good but they too need a strop to sharpen ?. So I guess the flat grind is a excellent all around grind and knife. Though I was thinking of buying a convex grind like the Bark river knives to my collection. I think I will use the Vanguard for my main outdoor knife and the Scandi a second one to go with it.
+Mark JG Sounds like a good choice. I suggest once you get comfortable with that combo then change it up a bit. Get familiar with all types of grinds and combinations.
+Bama Prepper I think his point is the difference between a micro bevel and a standard secondary bevel is the process to achieve the micro is very different.
Sorry, but I disagree. What makes a Skandi a true Skandi is the fact that it has a SINGLE bevel from the shoulder to the cutting edge (aka zero grind). A sabre grind differs from this in that it has 2 bevels from the get-go - a primary grind bevel from the shoulder to close to the cutting edge, where a secondary bevel is ground at a steeper angle to give the cutting edge. There are no rules (that I know of about how broad/wide this secondary bevel has to be in order to qualify as a secondary bevel, only that it be at a different angle to the primary grind bevel. By introducing a "micro-bevel" at a different angle (as you demonstrated in the video) you immediately create a secondary bevel (irrespective of how small it might be). So, technically, you have now created a sabre grind. However, the micro-bevel probably does not change the cutting/carving characteristics of the blade. It does change the way you sharpen the blade though. This is where it gets interesting. If one wants to maintain the blade's cutting characteristics closer to a true Skandi, it needs two sharpening actions; one for each bevel. If one decides to do only one sharpening action (the micro-bevel) this will, with repetition over time, inevitably broaden the micro-bevel ever wider (actually this will happen quite quickly, as the angle is steeper). The same happens with all sabre grinds, by the way. The one-bevel sharpening option you described is what many users of Skandi knives do when in the field, or when it is too inconvenient to do a proper Skandi sharpen (with no micro-bevel). To return the blade to a true Skandi then means a tedious true Skandi sharpen down to the zero edge. This will involve removing a considerable amount of material to get the grind true again (or change the steepness of the primary bevel). Sorry about being pedantic, but I just like to get my own understanding clear and straight. The bottom line is that putting a micro-bevel on a true Skandi knife blade has implications, which have consequences that people ought to know about. Thanks.
It is fine to disagree. So I will disagree and stay with my opinion in the video. Appreciate your view and opinion. The micro bevel is there for a stronger edge when needed and micro is just that, micro and easily removed with very little effort each time it is sharpened as a scandi and can or doesn’t have to be placed back each time it is sharpened.. It isn’t because of laziness. You can reference a scandi with a micro bevel as a modified scandi if it is sharpened as a scandi. If only the micro bevel is sharpened and not the full height of the scandi then IMO it is now a saber no matter the height of the now primary grind. The cutting angle being the secondary grind but I am only repeating myself so again, appreciate your view and opinion.
Typically an edge bevel extends to about where the steel is 20 to 30 thousandths thick. I would not call that a microbevel, anymore. And vice versa, I would not call a bevel you can't see without good lighting and a loupe an edge bevel. So if you are a scandi purist, u can call that last knife a saber if u want to obscure the meaning of the word microbevel. Or maybe u can just call it a ruined scandi. I call true scandi grind an excuse for a knife. There is a reason virtually every knife known to man has an edge bevel between 20 and 30 thous. That's where the steel is thick enough where it don't matter anymore for edge strength. I have a card/cabinet scraper, here. If you don't know that that is, it's just a fairly indescructible sheet of tool steel you use to scrape things. It doesn't even have an edge. Guess how thick it is? 32 thousandths! Would you call this entire sheet of steel an edge? Past 30 thous, u can hollow out the steel. Flatten it. Convex it. Do something to get rid of some of that steel. But if you are a scandianado you figure why not leave it all there and end up with an edge bevel that is 6 times as thick to help you sharpen the knife. Just sit down with a diamond hone and a lot of time and attention and focus on sharpening this easy to sharpen knife. Before ur halfway done, u can sharpen a regular knife without even looking at it. .:)
Not that you care, but imo what you call a high scandi with a microbevel is a major improvement to a regular scandi. I like how you described it. If it's just a matter of how you finish sharpening the knife, it really isn't a new edge bevel. In fact, if you want to get technical, there is no such thing as a zero edge or a true scandi. At the point where steel gets super thin at the apex at sub 40 degrees, it just forms a bur. This has to be slightly rounded off if not microbeveled at a blunter angle. Maybe your stone and technique do this automatically, or maybe you do this by deburring or stropping. But if it's sharp, and it's made of steel, and it has an edge bevel of sub 40 degrees, it's not really zero. It just depends on how closely you are looking. How many times can you strop a knife before you have to call it a convex microbevel? Are you allowed to strop a "true scandi?" What if your waterstone with the loose grit round over the apex a bit, so it cleans up the edge. Is this a true scandi? What if you sharpen the knife on a more dimensionally stable stone (like a ceramic)... and after you sharpen it on the ceramic, (for an hour, lol) you can get closer to a true zero edge than with the waterstone. But of course this edge is useless.... so you need to strop or finesse the edge (i.e. microbevel), and in the process what if you end up with more or less the EXACT SAME edge produced on the waterstone? So is putting on this microbevel "ruining" the scandi, but the waterstone is not? :)
Sorry, everyone for enlightening you but a scandi has no second bevel angle. Doesn't matter that you "Sharpen" (grind) the primary bevel. If your edge geometry has a second bevel angle of any kind....its not a scandi. If your scandi does in fact have a secondary bevel... its because some jack knob turned your scandi into a sabre... not a scandi with a micro bevel... a sabre. No secondary bevel is the defining characteristic of the scandi grind. Grinding/sharpening the entire bevel at one angle is how its achieved not a defining characteristic. You can have a high scandi, low scandi, apple seed scandi, even a hollow scandi.... but you cannot add a second bevel. Its not defined by how the end result is achieved, its defined by what it is. 2 bevels vs one. not up for negotiation. not up for interpretation. not a matter of opinion
LOL, sent you the same link. But stand behind my opinion in the video. Thanks for sharing your opinion. Not sure how you can have a scandi hollow grind but appreciate the view and comment.
@@wcknives use a 1" drum on the belt grinder and cut down to a razors edge. Its not easy but is technically still a scandi as it is only a single bevel. I've done it once, never again. Personally, I don't see a need for that kind of meat on a blade that can't take any chopping. Inversely the appleseed isn't worth a crap either. But it can be done easily on a slack belt... Don't see a need but its also still a scandi
@@wcknives unless you have a pull through with a matching radius you basically cant sharpen it in the field. you have to sharpen it on a 1 inch belt. technically yes, it is a low hollow grind with no second bevel. but because it has no second bevel its just as much a scandi as a hollow. only a scandi grind is defined by going right to the edge from a primary bevel. we are taking about edge geometry vs sharpening angles. kinda a "square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square" situation. a long time ago in scandinavia they ground most blades at a zero angle. meaning the bevel and cutting edge are the same angle. that grind was eventually referred to as a zero grind sabre. and today its known as a scandi grind. the defining difference being that its a zero grind.
I greet. it, Once a Scandi always a Scandi, But you can make the Apex stronger by putting some sort of micro bevel. Yes, It's as clear as mud. Just joking heh heh heh
+paulie 4x Yep, also a true historically accurate Scandinavian was actually a scandivex or what we now call a convexed scandi. Mora changed it to a V grind like we see today to accommodate their new mass production grinders. Their first knife packages included instructions on how to properly sharpen the V grind and change it back to a convex because Mora knew it was a week edge. This is why if you buy a true custom made in Sweden or Scandinavia knife it will come as a convex grind. It
But you still like a flat grind even though it's weak, For me it's a easier grind to sharpen. A convex is touchy. I have a beauty made by Weilmannsheil from Solengin, Germany. I swear the convex starts at the spine, sort of a long oval, but it has a relief edge, either a scandi or a saber, the relief is 2/3rd up the blade of its got a secondary bevel it's very slight. It's a beauyu, It's a slender elliptical shape boat knife with a Sambar Stag handle (slabs) with nice pins a very nice looking knife, I use it to carve, the pointier tio carves small curves, like it was just made for that.
Understood, I have two strop leather boards, a green on one side, and black on the other side, a white on the other strap (leatger) and one without any compound on it, just a plain old leatger srop, If I strop my knives alot over a period of time a micro convex will start forming. I seen guys using sandpaper on a mouse pad to convex a edge., But I do have a Work Sharp too, that puts a nice sharp convex edge on.
+paulie 4x Problem I see is in a long term wilderness setting those thing wear out an not easily replaced in the wilds so now you are trying to sharpen a convex grind using a flat river rock. Not easily done.
Agreed. Takes a bit more practice to sharpen a zero scandi without adding a micro bevel. Sabre is simple, just sharpen the secondary bevel. Most people that have a scandi probably create that micro bevel without knowing it so they get confused.
+Living Survival I agree. I could never understand why so many think sharpening a scandi is easiest. If you are not precise with a scandi then it will not be a true scandi very quickly. I would much rather sharpen a secondary bevel than a "0" degree any day and twice on Sunday.
+William Collins (WC Knives) especially, in the field!
+James Ritchie Exactly, That is what I love about the Scandi it has its own guide basically , it is so easy to sharpen which makes it my favorite grind. I can not say that about Saber or other grinds , the easiest and best grind to sharpen at least for me , and that is important in the field or home. If you can not sharpen your knife to a razors edge it is useless.
Thank you for helping me understand the differences. Your explanation is very clear. Thanks!
Well done my man I'm just learning differences in grinds and steels that was very helpful thank you
EXCELLENT VIDEO. Very Clear Explanation. Well Done Sir. Thank You. All The Best To You And Yours!
Truth Lover appreciate your support.
Great content I have a much simpler time sharpening a 0 degree grind and it takes much more effort on my part to properly sharpen a saber or flat grind finding that smaller secondary Grind takes some work.
good video i really like your easy to understand explanations of your different topics of the day thanks for sharing
+Amra Survival Thanks!
what do you recommend for a good bushcraft knife? thank you for the great video
Frank Trempe my thoughts on a bushcraft knife. th-cam.com/video/YNvYtqf5XSE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the clarity...clears up the confusion :-)
You're welcome. Appreciate your support.
William I really like listening to your videos. Heat treating is very interesting to me. Could you sometime fit into one of you videos some more about how your process differs from others and why you think yours is better, do you cryo treat and what is that all about. Without giving up any of your secrets of coarse. Thanks
+Vaughn Westerby Appreciate your video support. I do not cryo treat. I think the best answer for heat treat is to find out what works for your set up, climate and steel type used. Everyone heat treats differently and if I told how I do mine it may not work for anyone else due to my equipment and climate. The basic methods are found easily on the internet. I took the basic methods and after many trials and errors and bucket of blades found the best for me. It is a learning process that every knife maker has to put in the sweat and hours themselves. I have and will continue to give pointers but not willing to share everything;-)
Hi, just wondering what the knife with the saber grind that you showed was?
+Shelley Raskin Blood Drop. th-cam.com/video/qP2NUK2a-gs/w-d-xo.html
For some reason I tend to move to flat grind with zero bevel .
I have recently changed some of my knives 's geometry and it seems working just fine
+ckingclosur Appreciate your view and comment.
hehehehe... I'm sitting here with the giggles from the "I should play for Dallas" comment... I already forgot what the rest of the video was about... hehehe... Merry Christmas, William.
+AZ Patriot LOL, Thanks!
Great information William. I am subscribed to blackie at blackoracle69 and he was just talking about you new knife. Thought I would hop over and learn a bit from you. Thanks mate.
Welcome to my channel.
Agreed. Thanks for making this one.
Thanks for the video on the the sandi grind I didn't know the difference of the micro bevel.and the reg. scandi......
+Grumpy Guy Glad I could help.
All clear, but i have one question:
Take that knife with the scandi grind and a secondary bevel. Are you saying that EACH time you sharpen it, you sharpen the secondary bevel AS WELL as the main scandi grind? That sounds like what you're saying, but I don't understand why you would sharpen the main grind each time.
Oops, Thank You Mr. Collins, This was very helpful, Thanx.
Okay quick question.... a mora knife comes with a scandi grind on it. Then I've seen some pocket knives that also come with a scandi grind but there is a micro bevel. Some would say this micro bevel is added for a little bit of strength to prevent chipping. So what would a scandi with a micro bevel be called?
JackG79 it would be a scandi with a micro-bevel. LOL. As explained in the video it is sharpened like a scandi and then a micro bevel in added.
@@wcknives I just wasnt sure if it had a special name. Also.. am i correct in my assumption that people do this to prevent chipping?
@@wcknives also I wanted to ask you if it is possible to change the grind of a blade. Can a person change a Hollow Grind to a sabre grind? Or would that remove too much metal
JackG79 yes, micro bevel adds strength to the edge like a added bevel to a tru full flat grind does.
JackG79 you can change some grinds if you do not overheat the metal
And loose the temper. If the blade changes color it was over heated. A hollow grind typically doesn’t have enough metal thickness above the cutting edge to change the grind unless you regrind the blade up past the secondary edge. A cross section of a hollow grind look like a hour glass so it is thinner in the middle of the blade.
What grind does the Condor Bushlore have ??
Thanks.
Don’t know. Never used one.
Could you demonstrate how to effectively sharp the saber?
+Carlos Sepulveda sabre is easy, just sharpen the secondary bevel. Sharpening a zero grind scandi takes a bit more practice.
+Living Survival I see your point of view ... Thanks Ben
+Carlos Sepulveda same as a flat. this is how I do it.th-cam.com/video/NnHv143ydnE/w-d-xo.html
ya I'm in for that William yrs ago old timers called that a flat grind of course scandi which myself I like I'd have all my knives ground scandi but anyways I agree on your opinions ATB ....tom
+kabaruser Thanks Tom!
I own several scandi blades, and on the majority of them I put a very small micro-bevel to prevent the edge from chipping or rolling so much. Hard wood is just that HARD. A lot of zero grinds will roll or chip if the heat treat is off or the steel is not that great. Very good explanation by the way. Most of these guys who use the knife once then strop, use it again then strop are gonna wind up with a scandi-vex anyway.
+sturner8210 Agree with you on....well everything. Appreciate your view and comment.
Thank u sir for your again non profitable review which given many people knowledge and some other review doing your own steel vs steel retention test which many wont even do it; even they did, also not all willing to share...1 good song wont make the whole audience feel is a nice song. So just carry on what u are doing which many like me will appreciate. Thank u sir
Appreciate your support and thoughts.
I still don't understand the difference between the Saber and a Scandi with a micro-bevel -> for the latter, couldn't you only sharpen the micro-bevel (just like sharpening a saber) -> what would be the point of sharpening the primary of the scandi?
To keep the apex of the edge bevel thin. The more you sharpen the edge the thicker the edge apex will get and become more of a punch point for dense materials. The thinner the apex the better it will slice.
makes sense to me!
+MyBLUEARROW Thanks!
They're wrong. You are right.
Thank you for your videos and info.
+PREPFORIT LOL, Thanks! Not sure it is a right or wrong thing I was explaining my position.
a lady cowboys fan...totally get it....great knife info....subbed.
+highonimmi Thanks, welcome to my channel.
It seems like the problem or debate here is the confusion between a secondary bevel, and a micro bevel. I believe those 2 to be different... Although a micro bevel is technically a secondary bevel. IMHO a scandi, flat, saber, and convex with a secondary bevel can all have the same edge (if you set the secondary bevels the same angles). They'll cut the same, The main difference between them will be the "meat" of the knife above the secondary bevel, which will affect the slicing/cutting above the cutting area (secondary bevel) like you explained with a scandi forcing the leather apart while slicing VS.the flat.
A micro bevel, if I'm understanding correctly, is pretty much just taking the very edge of a grind to a higher angle to strengthen the edge which is so slight you can even do with a strop. It seems the same as "rounding" with stripping too hard or at a steep angle, but a deliberate "angle" instead of a accidentally "rounding". Am I getting the whole separation here?
+Erik Robison They debate was if you place a secondary bevel on a scandi weather it be a micro or not then it was no longer a scandi. I do not agree and was explaining why I disagree. The difference is how it is sharpened determine the grind. If the primary angle is sharpened then it is a scandi, in my opinion. If the primary angle is not sharpened during edge maintenance then it is a saber. I agree with your definition of a micro bevel and the reasons why, it is to strengthen the edge. So in theory if you have a high scandi with a micro bevel to give it a bit more strength then you should have a very sharp cutting edge with less blade drag than a "0" degree. And you do. It will carve like no bodies business. Control is where I had some difficulty but someone else may not have that problem.
+William Collins (WC Knives) understood. Dude, love the videos, and how you test your own stuff to keep new and improved products! Good job, and keep doing what you do!
+Erik Robison Will certainly try, Thanks!
I would have just left it a high scandi without miccrobevel unlease the micro bevel is necessary to prevent chips and bad rolls on wood
can't imagine what a supper high scandi would do with bitting
There is a difference in blade performance and yes the secondary bevel is to give the edge a bit more strength. If you get the chance you should try a high scandi grind. Appreciate your view.
William Collins I will either get one or make one lol
Nanchi Knives this is my thoughts on it.
th-cam.com/video/1pyMYZV5kRM/w-d-xo.html
I think people get caught way too much in terminology and political correctness. what's important is......does it work and accomplish the task you need it to do. sometimes you just have to leave it to the professionals. That's you William !!!!!!....PAPA DUKES
+john rossi Thanks, appreciate your support.
It might be a case of semantics, but I think of sharpening only in terms of the very apex of the blade. The sharpening process can involve the entire Scandi bevel, but the sides of the bevel will never be "sharp". I think one of the benefits to sharpening the entire Scandi edge, is that it thins the blade as you go up toward the spine. Not sharpening the entire edge leaves an increasingly thicker edge angle. Whoever the guy that makes Jacklore knives is, says that he also puts a micro bevel on his Scandi knives, and he's a bushcraft "purist"... LOL! Thanks for the video!
Frank Butta appreciate your thoughts. All makers that I know have some type of micro bevel for their Scandi blades. It creates a stronger edge. Even Ray Mears places a micro bevel on his knife at the end if you watch his sharpening video. For use in dense woods or game prep around bones this only makes sense. Appreciate your view.
William Collins
Hi William! I'm in agreement with you regarding micro bevels, and just added a thought of my own (which I heard from someone else). The people who insist that a knife is no longer a Scandi grind if it has a micro bevel need to listen to you and other knife makers who make Scandi knives. As I said, the British guy who makes Jacklore knives (with a forever waiting list) demonstrates his micro bevel Scandi by pounding through a 3" oak branch, and then slicing paper like a razor.
I enjoy your videos, so thanks again!
Frank Butta LOL, I got that. I was only agreeing with you agreeing with me. Thanks again!
makes sense.
+terrymoulder Thanks!
Nice save
+Ray Ford Thanks, I didn't want to show my super human skills on video but there you go. LOL, Cats out of the bag now I guess.
+Socialoutlaw Like a cat...big cat....er tiger maybe. LOL! Thanks!
+Socialoutlaw Probably so!
That is another reason I don't like scandi grinds...too much trouble to sharpen. Thanks William.
+Jerry Morris Very welcome!
Out of all my knives the Scandi is the easiest knife for me to sharpen to a razors edge, not so with Saber or other grinds . I do not worry about outdoor sharpening a Scandi because I carry a diamond sharpener.
+Mark JG It just takes practice and you could sharpen other grinds to a razors edge. To play the what if scenario, what if you lost your knife and had to use someone else's knife that wasn't a scandi? Or what if you lost your diamond sharpener? not as easy to sharpen a scandi using river rocks as others grinds. I think all grinds has a function and place so we should not restrict ourselves to only one grind. Just my opinion.
Very well said you are right, well I am no expert on blade grinds, I like knives and I have a Lon Humprey Vanguard flat grind hammer forged knife , I have not used it yet. I heard Convex grinds are very good but they too need a strop to sharpen ?. So I guess the flat grind is a excellent all around grind and knife. Though I was thinking of buying a convex grind like the Bark river knives to my collection. I think I will use the Vanguard for my main outdoor knife and the Scandi a second one to go with it.
+Mark JG Sounds like a good choice. I suggest once you get comfortable with that combo then change it up a bit. Get familiar with all types of grinds and combinations.
Big difference between a micro bevel and a secondary edge, lots of finish makers will do that right out of there shop, or convex the very apex.
What's so big about it?
+Derick Puff I agree most custom shops that I know will set the scandi bevel with a micro bevel prior to shipping the knife out.
+Bama Prepper I think his point is the difference between a micro bevel and a standard secondary bevel is the process to achieve the micro is very different.
Well I guess I get it. When I sharpen my scandi I follow with a strop and I guess it ends up the same.
+james green Yep, if you strop enough you will end up with either a scandivex or a convex micro bevel depending on what angle you strop the knife.
Sorry, but I disagree. What makes a Skandi a true Skandi is the fact that it has a SINGLE bevel from the shoulder to the cutting edge (aka zero grind). A sabre grind differs from this in that it has 2 bevels from the get-go - a primary grind bevel from the shoulder to close to the cutting edge, where a secondary bevel is ground at a steeper angle to give the cutting edge. There are no rules (that I know of about how broad/wide this secondary bevel has to be in order to qualify as a secondary bevel, only that it be at a different angle to the primary grind bevel. By introducing a "micro-bevel" at a different angle (as you demonstrated in the video) you immediately create a secondary bevel (irrespective of how small it might be). So, technically, you have now created a sabre grind. However, the micro-bevel probably does not change the cutting/carving characteristics of the blade. It does change the way you sharpen the blade though. This is where it gets interesting. If one wants to maintain the blade's cutting characteristics closer to a true Skandi, it needs two sharpening actions; one for each bevel. If one decides to do only one sharpening action (the micro-bevel) this will, with repetition over time, inevitably broaden the micro-bevel ever wider (actually this will happen quite quickly, as the angle is steeper). The same happens with all sabre grinds, by the way. The one-bevel sharpening option you described is what many users of Skandi knives do when in the field, or when it is too inconvenient to do a proper Skandi sharpen (with no micro-bevel). To return the blade to a true Skandi then means a tedious true Skandi sharpen down to the zero edge. This will involve removing a considerable amount of material to get the grind true again (or change the steepness of the primary bevel). Sorry about being pedantic, but I just like to get my own understanding clear and straight. The bottom line is that putting a micro-bevel on a true Skandi knife blade has implications, which have consequences that people ought to know about. Thanks.
It is fine to disagree. So I will disagree and stay with my opinion in the video. Appreciate your view and opinion. The micro bevel is there for a stronger edge when needed and micro is just that, micro and easily removed with very little effort each time it is sharpened as a scandi and can or doesn’t have to be placed back each time it is sharpened.. It isn’t because of laziness. You can reference a scandi with a micro bevel as a modified scandi if it is sharpened as a scandi. If only the micro bevel is sharpened and not the full height of the scandi then IMO it is now a saber no matter the height of the now primary grind. The cutting angle being the secondary grind but I am only repeating myself so again, appreciate your view and opinion.
@@wcknives
So, in fact, you ARE agreeing with me! Thanks.
@@dennisleighton2812 I am agreeing with my video if you are saying the same thing my video says then yes we agree.
Ooops I geeet it
Typically an edge bevel extends to about where the steel is 20 to 30 thousandths thick. I would not call that a microbevel, anymore. And vice versa, I would not call a bevel you can't see without good lighting and a loupe an edge bevel. So if you are a scandi purist, u can call that last knife a saber if u want to obscure the meaning of the word microbevel. Or maybe u can just call it a ruined scandi. I call true scandi grind an excuse for a knife. There is a reason virtually every knife known to man has an edge bevel between 20 and 30 thous. That's where the steel is thick enough where it don't matter anymore for edge strength. I have a card/cabinet scraper, here. If you don't know that that is, it's just a fairly indescructible sheet of tool steel you use to scrape things. It doesn't even have an edge. Guess how thick it is? 32 thousandths! Would you call this entire sheet of steel an edge? Past 30 thous, u can hollow out the steel. Flatten it. Convex it. Do something to get rid of some of that steel. But if you are a scandianado you figure why not leave it all there and end up with an edge bevel that is 6 times as thick to help you sharpen the knife. Just sit down with a diamond hone and a lot of time and attention and focus on sharpening this easy to sharpen knife. Before ur halfway done, u can sharpen a regular knife without even looking at it. .:)
Not that you care, but imo what you call a high scandi with a microbevel is a major improvement to a regular scandi. I like how you described it. If it's just a matter of how you finish sharpening the knife, it really isn't a new edge bevel. In fact, if you want to get technical, there is no such thing as a zero edge or a true scandi. At the point where steel gets super thin at the apex at sub 40 degrees, it just forms a bur. This has to be slightly rounded off if not microbeveled at a blunter angle. Maybe your stone and technique do this automatically, or maybe you do this by deburring or stropping. But if it's sharp, and it's made of steel, and it has an edge bevel of sub 40 degrees, it's not really zero. It just depends on how closely you are looking. How many times can you strop a knife before you have to call it a convex microbevel? Are you allowed to strop a "true scandi?" What if your waterstone with the loose grit round over the apex a bit, so it cleans up the edge. Is this a true scandi? What if you sharpen the knife on a more dimensionally stable stone (like a ceramic)... and after you sharpen it on the ceramic, (for an hour, lol) you can get closer to a true zero edge than with the waterstone. But of course this edge is useless.... so you need to strop or finesse the edge (i.e. microbevel), and in the process what if you end up with more or less the EXACT SAME edge produced on the waterstone? So is putting on this microbevel "ruining" the scandi, but the waterstone is not? :)
This is my definition between the two. appreciate your thoughts and video support. th-cam.com/video/ZpsZGlpg_80/w-d-xo.html
Sorry, everyone for enlightening you but a scandi has no second bevel angle. Doesn't matter that you "Sharpen" (grind) the primary bevel. If your edge geometry has a second bevel angle of any kind....its not a scandi. If your scandi does in fact have a secondary bevel... its because some jack knob turned your scandi into a sabre... not a scandi with a micro bevel... a sabre. No secondary bevel is the defining characteristic of the scandi grind. Grinding/sharpening the entire bevel at one angle is how its achieved not a defining characteristic. You can have a high scandi, low scandi, apple seed scandi, even a hollow scandi.... but you cannot add a second bevel. Its not defined by how the end result is achieved, its defined by what it is. 2 bevels vs one. not up for negotiation. not up for interpretation. not a matter of opinion
Sorta agree but think there’s more to it than that. th-cam.com/video/ZpsZGlpg_80/w-d-xo.html
LOL, sent you the same link. But stand behind my opinion in the video. Thanks for sharing your opinion. Not sure how you can have a scandi hollow grind but appreciate the view and comment.
@@wcknives use a 1" drum on the belt grinder and cut down to a razors edge. Its not easy but is technically still a scandi as it is only a single bevel. I've done it once, never again. Personally, I don't see a need for that kind of meat on a blade that can't take any chopping. Inversely the appleseed isn't worth a crap either. But it can be done easily on a slack belt... Don't see a need but its also still a scandi
@@stevedoan-hanson4346 technically wouldn’t that still be a hollow? How would you sharpen that in the field?
@@wcknives unless you have a pull through with a matching radius you basically cant sharpen it in the field. you have to sharpen it on a 1 inch belt. technically yes, it is a low hollow grind with no second bevel. but because it has no second bevel its just as much a scandi as a hollow. only a scandi grind is defined by going right to the edge from a primary bevel. we are taking about edge geometry vs sharpening angles. kinda a "square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square" situation. a long time ago in scandinavia they ground most blades at a zero angle. meaning the bevel and cutting edge are the same angle. that grind was eventually referred to as a zero grind sabre. and today its known as a scandi grind. the defining difference being that its a zero grind.
I greet. it, Once a Scandi always a Scandi, But you can make the Apex stronger by putting some sort of micro bevel. Yes, It's as clear as mud. Just joking heh heh heh
+paulie 4x Yep, also a true historically accurate Scandinavian was actually a scandivex or what we now call a convexed scandi. Mora changed it to a V grind like we see today to accommodate their new mass production grinders. Their first knife packages included instructions on how to properly sharpen the V grind and change it back to a convex because Mora knew it was a week edge. This is why if you buy a true custom made in Sweden or Scandinavia knife it will come as a convex grind. It
But you still like a flat grind even though it's weak, For me it's a easier grind to sharpen. A convex is touchy. I have a beauty made by Weilmannsheil from Solengin, Germany. I swear the convex starts at the spine, sort of a long oval, but it has a relief edge, either a scandi or a saber, the relief is 2/3rd up the blade of its got a secondary bevel it's very slight. It's a beauyu, It's a slender elliptical shape boat knife with a Sambar Stag handle (slabs) with nice pins a very nice looking knife, I use it to carve, the pointier tio carves small curves, like it was just made for that.
+paulie 4x convex does require a lot of practice to sharpen and also special types of sharpening tools.
Understood, I have two strop leather boards, a green on one side, and black on the other side, a white on the other strap (leatger) and one without any compound on it, just a plain old leatger srop, If I strop my knives alot over a period of time a micro convex will start forming. I seen guys using sandpaper on a mouse pad to convex a edge., But I do have a Work Sharp too, that puts a nice sharp convex edge on.
+paulie 4x Problem I see is in a long term wilderness setting those thing wear out an not easily replaced in the wilds so now you are trying to sharpen a convex grind using a flat river rock. Not easily done.