Hey everyone. This video is currently demonetized, and fairly likely to stay that way, depending on the temper of the Disney employee reviewing my appeal. I _have_ been working on it for weeks, though, so if you do enjoy this, Patreon pledges are always greatly appreciated. Here's a link: www.patreon.com/pillarofgarbage Edit: *Wahoo!* Disney ignored my appeal altogether, which means the copyright claim's disappeared by default. Still, I've yet to earn a penny on this one, and views look to have slowed right down - so yeah, awfully frustrating business all round. Thanks TH-cam!
Hey man I never realized my favorite movie has so much to do with masculinity and fatherhood (makes sense it’s my favorite after learning that) and thanks for making this video because it’s reminded me why I love this film so much and I think this video is essential to watch to fully understand this movie and it’s meaning
@@PillarofGarbageyou see jim did that knowing that it was illegal because he doesn’t respects authority because he doesn’t have a dad boys without fathers tend to be just that rebels that don’t respect authority and lack respect for others
I know this is OT but I really love how this movie is animated. It's a great combination of old fashioned flat panel on the characters and most of the backgrounds but with great use of 3D for effects. It really looks beautiful.
it's impressive how much volume the characters have yet the animation is immaculately fluid, it was peak Disney 2D for me, nothing ever out passed it aside from maybe DreamWorks' Prince of Egypt
As a teenage girl with a poor relationship with my dad, I identified with Jim soooo hard. I too just wanted someone to tell me I could rattle the stars. This movie still makes me cry.
@@FreyTheGay as if father can't have a daughter. Anyway, it IS close, but it doesn't go against my point. It's is not the same, it is usually expected to be linked, but that themes have different shades of topic, and that is one of situations where it's much more about 1 then about another or their unity.
2:15 If you look closely at every jerking movement he makes, its all with a purpose of keeping the spark on his board alive. He isn't trying to waste a movement like he was in the beginning, he was moving with the goal of saving other people's lives, just as much his own. This film really didn't waste the minor details.
I think one aspect that's important that you missed is regarding John Silver. Yes, at the start, some of it is a facade, but over time, Silver actually grows into the role for the most part, with some of his pirate side becoming a facade. Yes, he still wants the money, but I would argue that if he wasn't pressured into mutineering by the rest of the crew, he wouldn't have betrayed them and he would have fully grown into the father role for Jim. Sure, he wouldn't have let go of the chance of riches, but you can clearly see how he doesn't want to hurt Jim, and if Jim hadn't injured his prosthetic, he would have been even softer. If he didn't go along with the mutiny, he'd be seen as betraying the pirates and aiding the captain.
I've always thought if the other pirates had somehow been removed from the scenario, he would have surprised himself by sighing in relief and offered to find the loot together and share it. The captain might have taken some convincing, and I bet he'd have still needed to run once they were no longer in a survival situation, but the ending would have been the same just less dramatic. More like a DnD session. I'm also convinced that while Jim became a part of the naval forces, he still doesn't always play by the rules and is just smarter about it. Works with outlaws from time to time, if they're the right kind, and Silver is a trusted contact in the underground. He'd excel that way if he played his cards right, and we know that he's clever. Would also help break that men at war cycle. I feel like he has enough support from a wide enough variety of sources that he'd not repeat his father's mistakes.
@@PillarofGarbageyour analysis is just so skewed and contaminated by your focus on “masculinity” or “toxic masculinity” or “gender politics” that you gave way less importance to the fatherhood theme
Haven't watched the video yet, but I've seen some comments talking about Jim's dad being in the Navy? Don't know if they got that from this vid or somewhere else, but Leland was never with the Navy. The artbook that gives more of the background about Treasure Planet that wasn't necessary to fit into the character's stories says that Leland and Sarah moved to Montressor so Leland could take advantage of the prosperous mining operations there and get rich, but prospects were already drying up, then Jim was born, Leland wasn't ready to be a father and never took to the role well, and then Leland eventually left when Jim was eight because he'd had enough being tied down and poor.
You can be more masculine dispite being female and more feminie and be male. Though the role and expression is still divorced from the sex I still think its valueable as a boys story to teach maturity and forms of masculinity.
I like how you point out it's about maturity, like other comments say it's about fatherhood. Because masculinity isn't really a theme in and of itself, but something that is attributed to people.
@@MILOPETIT Yea masculinity is a topic, the theme is masculinity from difftent role models while growing up. Being mature is a big part of being a man which ties into the theme not just the topic, a father or a "positive role male model" is source to emulate, as explained in the video even if they arent perfect parts of them can still be drawn from. Masculinity or purouse can be drawn from institutions and doing your duty. Then finally he got to a female male role model he said it turns the theme on its heaf being about homosocailization but I still think you can emulate a women for masculine traits and still be male and disreguard the feminine traites.
'female masculinity' is absolutely a thing. it's more associated with queer women, especially butches, but plenty of straight, gender-nonconforming women identify with it.
Masculinity is a social construct that has nothing to do with "maleness": Saving lives, running toward problems, standing up to danger, putting oneself in harms way to protect one's own, replacing fun with duty have never been inherently "masculine". Girls and women have always had these drives and impacts, they're just not written about or given credit nearly as much. Jim could have been a girl/woman and the story would have had the same character development arc. Jim's primary role model was his mother but later his role models are Captain Amelia, Dr. Delbert Doppler, LJ Silver, Mr. Arrow, Ben and even Morph. We just focus on Silver as Jim's role model because we see them as the most similar for superficial reasons and they have the most time alone. Everyone Jim interacts with shapes him and vice versa. There's no "feminine/masculine" only honorable/dishonorable and freedom/control actions that lead to peace/conflict. It's not about "becoming a man" it's about feeling proud and fulfilled by what you've achieved and the bonds you've created along the way.
Also acting like an entitled jackass that will make messes and leaving them for other to clean up. In reality it's like an adult acting like a child's version of a "man".
That's why I love the film. Gender isn't real, it's performative. For some (not as many as we're taught to believe) it comes from a place that's natural, but that just makes it your personality, one that is enforced if it fits the norms and suppressed if not. It's very simple but society has convinced way too many that it's not, or that it's simple in a way that clearly doesn't reflect everyone's lived experiences. And this film showed all that by having a female captain embody the role of a steadfast, honorable leader. And as we know - unless you're sexist and thus irrationally emotional about the subject - men aren't the only people who can be those things. Easy. Obvious. But you get punished for talking about it. So let's talk about it more.
You can have masculine women and feminine men, the ideals are not exclusive to the sex; it's a cultural construct, a gender ideal, that we just associate with a sex. It's perfectly viable for the boy to take on the female captain's masculine traits or to aspire to them. Denying this fact would be like arguing that drag shows are impossible because you can only act as your sex, which is preposterous. We've had male actors pretending to be women (aka, feminine) on stage for centuries.
I always felt that this movie was more about maturity and responsibility than about masculinity. Obviously it could be both, but to me it just feels like it doesn’t focus on masculinity as much as it focuses on Jim learning to be a more responsible person and finding his place in the world. There are a couple times when it’s mentioned that the movie doesn’t seem to notice something connected to this point of masculinity being important to the message of the film, which imo makes sense if it isn’t meant to be the theme of the movie, I mean if they weren’t trying to make it about that in the first place, why would they notice?
Ok you got some good ideas here... But i do got some gripes. 1: Jim never looked up to Amelia infact his conflicts with her leads him to be in the kitchen with John Silver. That is how they met. And i think its good that masculinity in this film isnt male centric or inheritly male. I think it helps Treasure Planet age better than the typical "men need to do manly things. And girls need to do girly things" 2. Also aint it a bit odd that you want this movie to be more imperialist... Like... I dont think its good to idolize imperialism.... Especially when its done so much shit that harmed millions in the past and is harming millions in the present and its probably gonna harm millions in the future. And even subtracting that theres no real proper sense of govermental power in this movie outside of a navy and the police bots. So why make it hyper imperialist if there is no kind of properly established country in this world to be imperialist to? Not to mention it misses the bigger picture of Jim's growth if we have to waste time establishing a government that isnt needed for the story to function. 3: we are dealing with an adaptation so detatched from the thing its adapting that it changed its name to better reflect itself rather than the work its basing itself on... So comparing it to the book at all is an unfair set especially when you arent considering the time of which these both came out and the different messages they are trying to spread. 4: Treasure planet is never really a "being a man" story. Its a "coping with fatherlessness" story that can happen to anyone. And finding a father figure is also an experiance anyone can have. Which is why Jim being just neutrally more mature at the end of it seems to be more of the deal here. Because anyone can join the military anyone can step up whether ya got a thong or boxers on ya. And looking at works in a strictly binary light doesnt really help with looking at works like this as a whole as it makes you miss out or misinterpret things outright.
1. As discussed in the video, Jim's respect for Amelia + what she represents begins _after_ his bonding with Silver. 2. I don't *want* the movie to be more imperialist. I'd rather they weren't! All I'm doing is arguing that the masculine ideals the film is working with _are_ implicitly imperial. 3. The film is very much following Treasure Island. There'd have to be far, far less carried over before bearing the book in mind would cease to be useful in a project like this. 4. It's both. It's 'coping with fatherlessness _while_ becoming a man'.
Honestly I believe the creators made this film because they wanted to tell a good story first and foremost. The cast are flawed and grow throughout the film, it doesn't matter whst gender they are. It is about growing up, taking responsibility, learning to be more confident and assertive, while also learning when to be more open with your feelings. It us also about how relationships can change a person. Jim learned how to be a man from Silver, while Silver learned what it meant to be selfless from Jim. Dooplrr learned to be more assertive while Amelia learned to be less rigid. Their relationships changed them and for the better
Concerning the discourse about right vs left about masculinity that you briefly brought up. A VERY serious problem about people on the political left is the misuse of the term 'toxic masculinity'. It is an actual term found in psychology with a real definition but I only ever see it used wrong. I see people use it as an explanation for negative behavior, implying that the reason that the person acting wrongly is only acting like that because they're men, that if they were not then they'd be upstanding. Toxic masculinity means that an individual is acting in such a way to mimic behaviors they believe make them appear manly to others but the specific behaviors they're acting out are measurably hostile or anti social. That's the hook that the Tate brothers and their ilk use, they claim to celebrate masculinity but the specific aspects of masculinity they parade is the 'dark other' archetype that Jung described, something by definition that is toxic. But the political left cannot properly call that out because so many have already implied that acting manly in any aspect is inherently toxic so criticizing what the gurus talk about falls on death ears. I got into your content with your super hero and comic analysis so I can use this comparison concerning healthy vs toxic masculinity. Violence. The idea is unisex, you do not need to be any specific gender to participate in it. Zemo vs Captain America. Zemo is a fascist, taught by his father that he is superior so he is owed what he wants so it is his right to inflict violence on others to get what he wants. Because he is emulating a father figure which is a monster, this is toxic masculinity Steve Rogers is a first generation American, his parents straight off the boat from Ireland. His father subject to anti Irish and anti Catholic prejudice could not find work in the Great Depression, satisfying his frustration in alcohol and attacking his wife. When Steve became a man himself, he decided to use his incredible abilities to do right by others, to protect and uplift, to fight back against the biggest bullies he could find. Punching Nazis in the face, violence with righteous purpose. Almost as though he's trying to show his father what a real man should do, this his healthy masculinity.
@@abigfavor ... My dude, you can read my original comment, as it has not been edited. I have plainly said that the left DOES talk about Tate, but the issue being that they have misused essential terminology before and because of that it makes their current criticism appear invalid
i mean... there is a lot of "masculine self-care and positivity" from the left, but just is much more noisy the pro-capitalist aesthetic-driven lib discourse.
Not so fun fact. That was entirely intentional. In a nutshell, this movie used a very expensive composite of CGI and traditional animation that corporate Disney didn't want to use anymore. So they sabotaged the marketing so it wouldn't perform well in theaters, thus justifying the abandonment of traditional/composite animation that made the former movies like Aladin and lion king so famous. But wait, it gets worse. This movie was a passion project by the minds that made the Disney renascence possible
No matter what you decide to cover in your videos whether it’s something I that I thought I understood fully or not I always come away with something to think about and I think that’s really cool.
you know before i watch this video i just wanna say something, i don't think there should be anything inherent to being a man or a woman in my eyes, you are just what you say you are.
@@chadatchison145 That's too reductive. Learning from others and growing is not a bad thing. It only applies to people that are already good 'men' and end up warping from that start point by learning from scumbags. A child learning from their parent or a person taking a leadership role they have little prior experience for, could be examples where one needs to learn or relearn how to apply themselves. To adjust who they are and how they interact with others, in this case, as a man.
@@avivastudios2311 that is simply untrue on many levels. The whole "men are from mars women from venus " mindset is both alienating and a deep misunderstanding of the importance of the social structure that raises them. I'm not even going to try to go over the whole biology part of that comment, you seem to think testosterone is exclusive to men.
Okay, commenting again after having watched the video. Really great job! I’m surprised you didn’t talk too much about Dr. Doppler in this though - obviously he doesn’t really serve as a father figure to Jim, but he does represent a different view of masculinity and bravery. Not perfectly and not with too much focus, but still. On another note, have you seen the show Black Sails? It’s sort of a treasure island prequel, but it has absolutely fascinating things to say about a wide array of subjects (sexuality and gender/masculinity, the concept of civilization, and more). It’s pretty violent and the first season has some aspects of it that are a bit weaker. It was airing when Game of Thrones was, and you get the sense that the writers were pressured to try and emulate that show in certain ways (like sex/nudity) but thankfully the show grows past that pretty quick.
I think Doppler‘s role would be a lot more interesting if his meek side wasn’t always the butt of the joke, and if the film + Amelia didn’t require him to skew closer to the classic masculine type before celebrating him. Haven’t seen Black Sails but heard good things!
Masculinity AND Femininity are both good things that are required by ALL people. To say that either is toxic or unnecessary or anyrhing like that shows a very broken misunderstanding of the nature of not only humans, but life in gerneral.
This shows a severe misunderstanding of the concept of toxic masculinity. For toxic masculinity to exist, healthy masculinity must as well. No one’s saying all masculinity is toxic.
@TheShanicpower I'll dumb it down for you. Masculinity is not the reason people are dicks. That's like saying that chair is too much like a chair so it's toxic.
@@kylecarter1599I’ll dumb it down even further for you. Toxic masculinity/femininity are bad behaviours that are misrepresented as being masculine/feminine.
@@kylecarter1599Sure, masculinity and femininity are made up concepts. That’s not the point, though. People are very subscribed to those made up concepts, and will often use them as a source for their toxicity.
Amazing. I really like the way you read the text against itself. A notice there's a somewhat hanging thread on the idea that masculinity might be divorced from maleness (the position you suggest along with the idea of a non-gendered maturity) as you seem to move straight from these two possibilities to the second. There's a tendency in the sort of post-feminist films that dot the 90s and 2000s to present the exceptional woman/girl, a person who is deemed a success because she succeeds at masculinity and thus 'has it all', reaffirming that society is not sexist and justifying the boys club nature of the rest of the cast, but there does remain a thread to pull in that concept in that it opens a breach in the linkage between masculinity and men. I also find myself wondering that the sort of individualist loop the story forms by making the boarding Jim does the thing needd to save the world, vs the more communal nature of 'being a man' and part of the system when all these examples of masculinity are stunningly individualist, but that's probably a different question entirely about how masculinity can be both 'a thing inside you that defines who you are' and a category of person. It gets us back to those fundamental ruptures within the concepts of gender and individualism, so I suppose that's always going to be messy to handle.
I always saw this movie as a growth from a boy to a man, and that really kept me from fully embracing a ton of the story's messages. Now I see its kind of a mishmash of themes that allow you to decide what way you perceive it. Even if that wasn't the film's intended purpose haha. Anyways thank you for this vid, this is my favorite Disney film next to Atlantis and I'm so happy you decided to take the time to make this
It's such good quality art, and your speculative read of it has increased my appreciation for it. Art is made better when it has ambiguous parts we can add unto with our own experiences and pov, and it is best when shared with people who love it.
Treasure Planet might be my favourite Disney film. All interesting points that you put forward. I think the allusion to Jim's father being emotionally stunted by his experience in the imperial navy, though very likely unintentional, acts as a counterbalance to the other more dated messages of the film for me that bled through from the original novel. I like to think that despite his temporary betrayal, Silver helped Jim break a potential cycle there by instilling positive masculine ideals in him, so that he'd become a great leader and more emotionally available father to his own children should he have any. Amelia could've also had a role in this as the paragon like you said. I don't think these ideals can be instilled only by men, they're universal. I also like the idea that because of this, Jim eventually stepped away from his navy career in favour of becoming an explorer. That way he's rejecting the world that robbed him of his father and Silver's world, instead forging his own path. But that's just my headcanon.
I do not completely understand your point and I think the big point that threw me off was the beginning of the video. I don't know your opinion on positive masculinity, most of the video seems extremely critical at masculinity and masculine role models. Especially the montage at 3:19 seems to be implying some sort of ridiculousness in the argument that there isn't a stronger male role model on the left political spectrum, but you never specify why that is bad and then it becomes hard to really understand your overall point since you leave it mostly unsaid.
This movie gave me as kid an idea what good you can do as a man in socity. That you can be supportive and help people by be there and listen. And that other man needs support too. surely not the intended message but it is the one that stuck with me. I asked myself: what man do you want to become? today i can say i became the man i wanted to be😊.
A possitive male role model and icon of mental health for me is Kratos from "god of war: ragnarok". It was the first character that displayed the virtues, the struggle and the grow beyond that of a man in an honest light. And what i consider realistic.
I think the reading of Jim's father that the movie supports a lot more is actually of him as some kind of pirate-adjacent sailor, so he represents exactly the opposite of the kind of man Jim ends up becoming. It goes back to the navy vs. pirates dichotomy of adulthood/masculinity. The navy represents the positive, the mature men who are stable and normative, while the pirates are the kind of people who aren't able to have a family and lead a normal life
I'm gonna be honest, my entire life I've been afraid of my masculinity. For some reason or another I've always found myself surrounded by men who were below my standards. Standards my father actually builted into me. My relationship with my father is fairly similar to this film, my dad always did what was considered masculine in nearly every since and I idolized him throughout my life. It wasn't until recently that I've noticed my dad's flaws and I struggled to accept them. In conjunction I'm learning to deal with my own list of flaws and short coming. If you don't mind me adding my own interpretation, the fim could be a story about how to build a more positive masculinity by learning how to take from influences. People who show how to accept the flaws and shortcoming while simultaneously understand the responsibilities that is expected of you and forge the concept nobility within you. Cheesey I know but obviously I'm biased towards the film, keep up the good work.
Disney the company? Yes. But not their creators. Musker and Clements were creating this movie before The Little Mermaid. They had more than 15 years to plan this movie.
I was very offended by the "sexy cat-woman" gender-swapped captain, when I saw this in theaters at 19yo. In hindsight, that's because I was silently going crazy from repressed gender dysphoria and internalized self-hatred. Of course, masculinized women get to be badasses. Who's the role model in that movie for less masculine boys, though? The doctor is the effete "intellectual wimp" who gets paired off with the captain, so presumably that was supposed to be the example of a more "feminine" man being one of the good guys? Well... I didn't feel validated by any of it, especially the central narrative. Ironically, I spent a lot of time listening to that "I'm Still Here" song, during the crisis that led me to come out as trans. The movie didn't touch me much, but that song packs a punch, imo... Poetry can speak truer than prose, sometimes.
You should do Atlantis and Imperialism/ Atlantis and white supremacy/ Atlantis vs the British museum That would be a nice companion piece, especially because while both 2D animated flops of that era have a lot in common they also have widely differing messages
I wonder how this film would have been received if Jim was a girl? Nothing different, just that. I know many little girls would have been ecstatic, at the very least.
I think you gave to much thought into the masculinity side of the movie instead of the maturity and fatherhood side of the movie because jim really needed a Dad someone to believe in him and teach him how to be a man and grow up. I myself grew up without my dad and loved this movie because it actually goes through the trauma of not having a dad which jusy makes you insecure, inmature and weak because you don’t know how to be a man which is why a lot of people like me have other men as father figures
Father figures are very important because they teach you the core values you need for life. Women can teach this qualities too but coming from an abandoned child myself i always wanted someone to look up to, to teach me right from wrong this man was my grandpa and i owe him a lot for it. If anything i think the movie needed a plotwist which is why silver had ulterior motives because without conflict characters can’t grow a story without problems to be solved by the characters is just… incomplete and doesn’t justifies for character grow. I feel like unlike disney’s most current work this movie wasn’t made with gender politics or the theme of masculinity to be the main subject but rather made with fatherhood and growing up to be the main theme
@@PillarofGarbage What's the difference between the two? I mean, I get that there are superficial differences, but on the deeper layers, the two are pretty similar, they just go about it differently
As this is my favorite and most formative Disney film from my youth, I will be politely abstaining from the criticism of its values, but i love you and keep up the great work!
1:55 Joseph K is guilty, and he was entirely free through the whole of his arrest up until his verdict was received, after he refused his opportunity to listen and answer his accusers before they could say a word. At the very least he’s guilty of contempt to the process of self judgement and to the very idea he might be guilty of anything, but he is also guilty of lying to the court that he’d never try to give a bribe, and of sexually harassing his neighbour.
this is SUCH a great analysis. got me considering things i've never thought about, both in regards to this specific movie and more generally. thanks for making this vid :) u'd be a phenomenal english/literature teacher or professor.
I think the idea of a toxic cycle or masculinity doesn't account for what Jim learns from his experience on the ship. He learns not only an earnest sense of responsibility, but also that he can be himself in that position, whether a breadwinner, leader, or crew member. The scenes that bookend the film sent this home relatively well, that in the beginning he engages risk-seeking behavior for the thrill and neglects his responsibilities to his mother and the emotional toll it takes on her, and by the end such similar behaviors are framed completely differently; he takes risks out of nessecity for everyone involved and knows his own abilities and limits and utilizes them while also receiving help, showing he is also part of a team, and that he is behaving not out of neglect of responsibility but in fulfillment of it. He has learned to use his skills and instincts, his quick thinking, to his advantage and it is with that full knowledge that he enrolls in and graduates from the military academy. Otherwise, the same enrollment may have become his only option, as it is for many, and he would not have adapted nearly as well. It is from this cycle that I believe he has probably escaped, his father was likely confronted with a role he did not feel he could step up to fulfill, as a soldier or a father. Jim has stepped into his role as part of a crew, a team, and has experienced several positive role models in his life. He has always cared for his mom, as his father may have as well, but Jim has nothing to pretend about anymore. He has gained the skills and confidence to live his life with success and celebration. As a children's movie it seems as well implied as they could manage.
Idk, I kinda like that it doesn't get bogged down in exploring gender politics and the ripple effect it therefore places on the story. Amelia doesn't become yet another fierce female who fought against stereotypes and is really just one of the boys deep down. She is just a woman. And it teaches boys that they can be men without -being men-, it adds to what being a man is, saying it doesn't require you to exclude women and hold them to inferior societal roles for the elevation of your own. Amelia hasn't denied any ounce of femininity so she can fit into a man's world, the man's world is now her world, and it is just... the world. What better a way to teach boys than to let them see women in more than single roles as carers (mothers, nurses, nuns, sisters, housewives, etc). It reframes what "masculinity" is. I like seeing a take where the men aren't asked to change for the sake of the woman's presence, and the woman isn't asked to change for the sake of the men's presence. A possibly accidentally nuanced take on what gender roles would look like in a sci-fi society, the presence of robots isn't questioned as to how it impacts the masculinity of the characters (robots which are presumably stronger and more capable than biological creatures, and do not have a natural gender other than what is imposed on them seemingly through the roles they fill in society), nor is the daring presence of a woman on the crew.
Don't get me wrong, I like these results too. I just think they're largely accidental, and that they exist alongside other, less progressive strains of thought in the film.
@@PillarofGarbagei think emilia was a good example of a strong woman which was fierce and could be with men and be respected being smart capable and brave and as you see in the show she respected her peers and congratulated them in public when they did something good, emilia was a good leader. But also never lost her femininity becoming a mom at the end i think that actually tells women that they can be both…. And it tells men that women can be in those positions of power and be respected but the truth is that to do so they do end up absorbing masculine traits
Something I noticed in my recent watch of treasure planet is that both Jim and silver have left ear piercings. It's a common belief that left ear piercings indicates being straight and right ear piercings indicates being gay. "Left is right and right is wrong" it's interesting to me they made that detail, the whole left ear, right ear thing was a bigger deal while this movie was being made. But perhaps I'm looking into it too much as an adult gay guy who grew up with no father figures in my life. Being gay and finding an older gay male role model is something that feels so rare and this movie is probably the closest thing to that. Kind of related but I think what makes this movie so unique is that it doesn't really have the traditional bad guy Disney villain going on, it's a complex relationship that has its ups and downs instead. I feel the same about the first how to train your dragon movie with how hiccups dad isn't really the villain and they just have a complex relationship, it's so refreshing to see that in animated movies.
I own a very old copy of treasure island I found at a Goodwill store I have no idea how old it is because the page that would have had the date in it was gone
Dude watches the greatest Disney movie of all time and inserts his own want for the movie to be about masculinity into it. Repeatedly says "the movie seems to be unaware of," that's because this movie wasn't made with masculinity as part of the message. You just spent a whole video projecting what you wanted to talk about into a movie that had nothing to do with the message you wanted talk about. Bravo, you made a bad video arguing points that only exist because of your forced injection of ideas. You're doing the thing you complain other critics do when dishonestly reviewing movies.
I did not leave the doctor out, I simply did not include him. No details of Doppler's story/arc significantly affect my reading of masculinity in Treasure Planet (the argument given in the video) either way. As I wrote in another comment, I think Doppler‘s role would be a lot more interesting if his meek side wasn’t always the butt of the joke, and if the film and Amelia didn’t require him to skew closer to classic masculinity before celebrating him. Since this isn't the case, though, I feel Doppler fits neatly into the general outline I give at 12:10 - hence the lack of any discussion specific to him.
@PillarofGarbage I value your work and the effort it represents, but do not always agree with you. Choosing not to include a figure who is present throughout the movie while focusing part of the video on one with no lines, no face, and no action other than leaving seems very much to constitute leaving the doctor out. Doppler stands up to the guards, escapes with Jim and his mother and sticks with them, convinces Jim's mother to let him chase the treasure, funds the expedition, and convinces a pirate not to harm his friend in semi-fluent Flatulon. All this before he even meets the Captain. The fact that the doctor is constantly reaching beyond his capabilities to aid others (and that he sometimes stumbles as a result) is a version of masculinity that I personally value, and I think that to echo the dismissal of some of the movie's characters (including Jim) is a mistake.
I adore this film but the ending always rubbed me the wrong way, I was kinda hoping that Jim wouldn't become a naval officer/cadet and broke the cycle instead
@@PillarofGarbage what if I promise to rewatch it every day, like minimum 100x because I am that crazy about the idea. You could pair it with a video about Robert E Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs....
I know it is a bit late in the game to Name change ... but just consider the moniker 'Pillar of good ideas, stacked on other good ideas," mull it over... I can wait
I was actually really bothered by the portrayal of Silver as a positive role model/father figure. I much prefer the complicated relationship between Silver and Jim in Muppet Treasure Island, where Tim Curry is manipulating and gaslighting Jim, and yet there is genuine affection. Curry's Silver is obviously a bad guy all the way, and yet you understand Jim's ambivalence.
I haven’t seen Muppet Treasure Island, but this does seem a far closer dynamic to RLS’ novel. That being said, I do think their Treasure Planet dynamic is fun too - just in a more _Disney_ way.
Also Amelia gets injured the minute they set foot on the island and effectively sits out the entire third act. Felt like a waste of a great character and more than a little sexist
I usually like Pillar’s take but I will have to disagree on some of his ideas on Amelia. She is a character well ahead of the time the movie came out. I love her character because she portrays something that I have always felt about gender norms. That it’s more important to be a good person before being a good woman or man. I doesn’t make sense to me taking the attributes of a good human and dividing half of them to men and half to woman. If the best version of yourself is a highly empathetic man or charismatic leadership as a woman, that shouldn’t be considered as not “normative”. You shouldn’t be defined by your hormones or genitalia.
I really liked titan AE more. Which is , i just like thatHe too has that silver character take im under his wing, partly vecause his genetic marker unlocks the map, but he does, ok he does not kill him. And he still takes him from driffting lost refugee to a goal, including his dad. And still in the end him standig up does make him, my plans are scrwed, ok, o wikk do that heroic sacrifice, you happy now?! Ok i just like it better asspace treasure island also ,like the treasure, , finding a home as refugee, and a bit moses i guess. And good message, that hmanities last resort, by the military noless, is that beautiful.
The fact that the captain was gender-swapped "Disney doesn't seem to realize this" ...meaning that the pillar of garbage thinks unless a film has an after-school-special "Hey kids, women can be role models too!!!" explicitly stated, it was unconscious. Completely disingenuous.
Hey everyone. This video is currently demonetized, and fairly likely to stay that way, depending on the temper of the Disney employee reviewing my appeal. I _have_ been working on it for weeks, though, so if you do enjoy this, Patreon pledges are always greatly appreciated. Here's a link: www.patreon.com/pillarofgarbage
Edit: *Wahoo!* Disney ignored my appeal altogether, which means the copyright claim's disappeared by default. Still, I've yet to earn a penny on this one, and views look to have slowed right down - so yeah, awfully frustrating business all round. Thanks TH-cam!
i just realized you just hearted my comment thank you~
Or . . . we could firebomb the dis**y offices.
In roblox.
Hey man I never realized my favorite movie has so much to do with masculinity and fatherhood (makes sense it’s my favorite after learning that) and thanks for making this video because it’s reminded me why I love this film so much and I think this video is essential to watch to fully understand this movie and it’s meaning
I didn't know this movie existed until now. Disney should be thanking you!
Another great video but rubbish that it's demonetized! I agree they should be thanking you for the publicity.
The "I'm Still Here" scene still gets me emotionally
To be clear, Jim didn't get in trouble for "having fun" in the beginning of the movie, he got in trouble for trespassing in a restricted area.
Right - but he went to that restricted area to have fun.
@@PillarofGarbagein a restricted area that is illegal
@@jamorrowyearby9991
To have fun there.
My man was in a open pit mine and almost died flying through the fucking mining machine and almost crushed him. That was why it was restricted.
@@PillarofGarbageyou see jim did that knowing that it was illegal because he doesn’t respects authority because he doesn’t have a dad boys without fathers tend to be just that rebels that don’t respect authority and lack respect for others
I know this is OT but I really love how this movie is animated. It's a great combination of old fashioned flat panel on the characters and most of the backgrounds but with great use of 3D for effects. It really looks beautiful.
fr, it’s stunning to look at
it's impressive how much volume the characters have yet the animation is immaculately fluid, it was peak Disney 2D for me, nothing ever out passed it aside from maybe DreamWorks' Prince of Egypt
It's about fatherhood much more than about masculinity
As a teenage girl with a poor relationship with my dad, I identified with Jim soooo hard. I too just wanted someone to tell me I could rattle the stars. This movie still makes me cry.
@@deborahw2338 Goodluck
@@deborahw2338 Thank you for sharing. I'm going to make sure I tell my daughter exactly that, when she's ready to hear it.
Fatherhood and masculinity are inherently linked
@@FreyTheGay as if father can't have a daughter.
Anyway, it IS close, but it doesn't go against my point.
It's is not the same, it is usually expected to be linked, but that themes have different shades of topic, and that is one of situations where it's much more about 1 then about another or their unity.
2:15 If you look closely at every jerking movement he makes, its all with a purpose of keeping the spark on his board alive. He isn't trying to waste a movement like he was in the beginning, he was moving with the goal of saving other people's lives, just as much his own.
This film really didn't waste the minor details.
I think one aspect that's important that you missed is regarding John Silver.
Yes, at the start, some of it is a facade, but over time, Silver actually grows into the role for the most part, with some of his pirate side becoming a facade. Yes, he still wants the money, but I would argue that if he wasn't pressured into mutineering by the rest of the crew, he wouldn't have betrayed them and he would have fully grown into the father role for Jim. Sure, he wouldn't have let go of the chance of riches, but you can clearly see how he doesn't want to hurt Jim, and if Jim hadn't injured his prosthetic, he would have been even softer. If he didn't go along with the mutiny, he'd be seen as betraying the pirates and aiding the captain.
I've always thought if the other pirates had somehow been removed from the scenario, he would have surprised himself by sighing in relief and offered to find the loot together and share it. The captain might have taken some convincing, and I bet he'd have still needed to run once they were no longer in a survival situation, but the ending would have been the same just less dramatic. More like a DnD session.
I'm also convinced that while Jim became a part of the naval forces, he still doesn't always play by the rules and is just smarter about it. Works with outlaws from time to time, if they're the right kind, and Silver is a trusted contact in the underground. He'd excel that way if he played his cards right, and we know that he's clever. Would also help break that men at war cycle. I feel like he has enough support from a wide enough variety of sources that he'd not repeat his father's mistakes.
I'm not sure that I did miss this - I discuss it in the section beginning around 6:24.
@@PillarofGarbageyour analysis is just so skewed and contaminated by your focus on “masculinity” or “toxic masculinity” or “gender politics” that you gave way less importance to the fatherhood theme
Haven't watched the video yet, but I've seen some comments talking about Jim's dad being in the Navy? Don't know if they got that from this vid or somewhere else, but Leland was never with the Navy. The artbook that gives more of the background about Treasure Planet that wasn't necessary to fit into the character's stories says that Leland and Sarah moved to Montressor so Leland could take advantage of the prosperous mining operations there and get rich, but prospects were already drying up, then Jim was born, Leland wasn't ready to be a father and never took to the role well, and then Leland eventually left when Jim was eight because he'd had enough being tied down and poor.
You can be more masculine dispite being female and more feminie and be male. Though the role and expression is still divorced from the sex I still think its valueable as a boys story to teach maturity and forms of masculinity.
I like how you point out it's about maturity, like other comments say it's about fatherhood. Because masculinity isn't really a theme in and of itself, but something that is attributed to people.
@@MILOPETIT Yea masculinity is a topic, the theme is masculinity from difftent role models while growing up. Being mature is a big part of being a man which ties into the theme not just the topic, a father or a "positive role male model" is source to emulate, as explained in the video even if they arent perfect parts of them can still be drawn from. Masculinity or purouse can be drawn from institutions and doing your duty. Then finally he got to a female male role model he said it turns the theme on its heaf being about homosocailization but I still think you can emulate a women for masculine traits and still be male and disreguard the feminine traites.
'female masculinity' is absolutely a thing. it's more associated with queer women, especially butches, but plenty of straight, gender-nonconforming women identify with it.
What are 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Seems to me the definitions nowadays are so vague there's not much value in either
@@painunending4610 Yeah those definitiona don't matter because they're arbitrary and don't need to be adhered to, not because they're unclear.
Masculinity is a social construct that has nothing to do with "maleness": Saving lives, running toward problems, standing up to danger, putting oneself in harms way to protect one's own, replacing fun with duty have never been inherently "masculine". Girls and women have always had these drives and impacts, they're just not written about or given credit nearly as much. Jim could have been a girl/woman and the story would have had the same character development arc. Jim's primary role model was his mother but later his role models are Captain Amelia, Dr. Delbert Doppler, LJ Silver, Mr. Arrow, Ben and even Morph. We just focus on Silver as Jim's role model because we see them as the most similar for superficial reasons and they have the most time alone. Everyone Jim interacts with shapes him and vice versa. There's no "feminine/masculine" only honorable/dishonorable and freedom/control actions that lead to peace/conflict. It's not about "becoming a man" it's about feeling proud and fulfilled by what you've achieved and the bonds you've created along the way.
Also acting like an entitled jackass that will make messes and leaving them for other to clean up. In reality it's like an adult acting like a child's version of a "man".
1:29 "its clear that he's trespassing"
1:39 "this is bad, the film says"
Um.. yeah?
That's why I love the film. Gender isn't real, it's performative. For some (not as many as we're taught to believe) it comes from a place that's natural, but that just makes it your personality, one that is enforced if it fits the norms and suppressed if not. It's very simple but society has convinced way too many that it's not, or that it's simple in a way that clearly doesn't reflect everyone's lived experiences.
And this film showed all that by having a female captain embody the role of a steadfast, honorable leader. And as we know - unless you're sexist and thus irrationally emotional about the subject - men aren't the only people who can be those things.
Easy. Obvious. But you get punished for talking about it. So let's talk about it more.
Treasure Planet animated movie, now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
A long time and it's an underrated gem.
I've always loved this film and thought it was really underrated. The bond between Jim and John Silver is unique
You can have masculine women and feminine men, the ideals are not exclusive to the sex; it's a cultural construct, a gender ideal, that we just associate with a sex. It's perfectly viable for the boy to take on the female captain's masculine traits or to aspire to them. Denying this fact would be like arguing that drag shows are impossible because you can only act as your sex, which is preposterous. We've had male actors pretending to be women (aka, feminine) on stage for centuries.
I always felt that this movie was more about maturity and responsibility than about masculinity. Obviously it could be both, but to me it just feels like it doesn’t focus on masculinity as much as it focuses on Jim learning to be a more responsible person and finding his place in the world. There are a couple times when it’s mentioned that the movie doesn’t seem to notice something connected to this point of masculinity being important to the message of the film, which imo makes sense if it isn’t meant to be the theme of the movie, I mean if they weren’t trying to make it about that in the first place, why would they notice?
Ok you got some good ideas here... But i do got some gripes.
1: Jim never looked up to Amelia infact his conflicts with her leads him to be in the kitchen with John Silver. That is how they met.
And i think its good that masculinity in this film isnt male centric or inheritly male. I think it helps Treasure Planet age better than the typical "men need to do manly things. And girls need to do girly things"
2. Also aint it a bit odd that you want this movie to be more imperialist... Like... I dont think its good to idolize imperialism.... Especially when its done so much shit that harmed millions in the past and is harming millions in the present and its probably gonna harm millions in the future. And even subtracting that theres no real proper sense of govermental power in this movie outside of a navy and the police bots. So why make it hyper imperialist if there is no kind of properly established country in this world to be imperialist to? Not to mention it misses the bigger picture of Jim's growth if we have to waste time establishing a government that isnt needed for the story to function.
3: we are dealing with an adaptation so detatched from the thing its adapting that it changed its name to better reflect itself rather than the work its basing itself on... So comparing it to the book at all is an unfair set especially when you arent considering the time of which these both came out and the different messages they are trying to spread.
4: Treasure planet is never really a "being a man" story. Its a "coping with fatherlessness" story that can happen to anyone. And finding a father figure is also an experiance anyone can have. Which is why Jim being just neutrally more mature at the end of it seems to be more of the deal here. Because anyone can join the military anyone can step up whether ya got a thong or boxers on ya. And looking at works in a strictly binary light doesnt really help with looking at works like this as a whole as it makes you miss out or misinterpret things outright.
1. As discussed in the video, Jim's respect for Amelia + what she represents begins _after_ his bonding with Silver.
2. I don't *want* the movie to be more imperialist. I'd rather they weren't! All I'm doing is arguing that the masculine ideals the film is working with _are_ implicitly imperial.
3. The film is very much following Treasure Island. There'd have to be far, far less carried over before bearing the book in mind would cease to be useful in a project like this.
4. It's both. It's 'coping with fatherlessness _while_ becoming a man'.
My favourite animated movie from my favourite video essay channel? Yes please
Honestly I believe the creators made this film because they wanted to tell a good story first and foremost. The cast are flawed and grow throughout the film, it doesn't matter whst gender they are. It is about growing up, taking responsibility, learning to be more confident and assertive, while also learning when to be more open with your feelings. It us also about how relationships can change a person. Jim learned how to be a man from Silver, while Silver learned what it meant to be selfless from Jim. Dooplrr learned to be more assertive while Amelia learned to be less rigid. Their relationships changed them and for the better
Concerning the discourse about right vs left about masculinity that you briefly brought up.
A VERY serious problem about people on the political left is the misuse of the term 'toxic masculinity'. It is an actual term found in psychology with a real definition but I only ever see it used wrong. I see people use it as an explanation for negative behavior, implying that the reason that the person acting wrongly is only acting like that because they're men, that if they were not then they'd be upstanding.
Toxic masculinity means that an individual is acting in such a way to mimic behaviors they believe make them appear manly to others but the specific behaviors they're acting out are measurably hostile or anti social.
That's the hook that the Tate brothers and their ilk use, they claim to celebrate masculinity but the specific aspects of masculinity they parade is the 'dark other' archetype that Jung described, something by definition that is toxic. But the political left cannot properly call that out because so many have already implied that acting manly in any aspect is inherently toxic so criticizing what the gurus talk about falls on death ears.
I got into your content with your super hero and comic analysis so I can use this comparison concerning healthy vs toxic masculinity.
Violence. The idea is unisex, you do not need to be any specific gender to participate in it.
Zemo vs Captain America.
Zemo is a fascist, taught by his father that he is superior so he is owed what he wants so it is his right to inflict violence on others to get what he wants. Because he is emulating a father figure which is a monster, this is toxic masculinity
Steve Rogers is a first generation American, his parents straight off the boat from Ireland. His father subject to anti Irish and anti Catholic prejudice could not find work in the Great Depression, satisfying his frustration in alcohol and attacking his wife. When Steve became a man himself, he decided to use his incredible abilities to do right by others, to protect and uplift, to fight back against the biggest bullies he could find. Punching Nazis in the face, violence with righteous purpose. Almost as though he's trying to show his father what a real man should do, this his healthy masculinity.
The fact you see Zeemo as Toxic Masculinity but not Tate is so super weird to me
@@abigfavor ... My dude. I have plainly said that he preaches the value of toxic masculinity.
@@kingsadvisor18 When "The Left" talks about Toxic Masculinity the talk about Tate. I'm very confused as to who you think "The left" is
@@abigfavor ... My dude, you can read my original comment, as it has not been edited.
I have plainly said that the left DOES talk about Tate, but the issue being that they have misused essential terminology before and because of that it makes their current criticism appear invalid
i mean... there is a lot of "masculine self-care and positivity" from the left, but just is much more noisy the pro-capitalist aesthetic-driven lib discourse.
Jim is one of the reasons I knew I was gay when I was a kid. Hahahaha. Love this film, sad that it didn't do well in the box office at the time.
I was about to reply by asking, “What in this movie ever gave you the impression that Jim might be gay?” and then I realized what you were saying 😂
Not so fun fact. That was entirely intentional. In a nutshell, this movie used a very expensive composite of CGI and traditional animation that corporate Disney didn't want to use anymore. So they sabotaged the marketing so it wouldn't perform well in theaters, thus justifying the abandonment of traditional/composite animation that made the former movies like Aladin and lion king so famous.
But wait, it gets worse. This movie was a passion project by the minds that made the Disney renascence possible
@@ThePoliticrat I remember having a huge crush on Jim as a teen 😂
No matter what you decide to cover in your videos whether it’s something I that I thought I understood fully or not I always come away with something to think about and I think that’s really cool.
Glad to hear it 🙂
you know before i watch this video i just wanna say something, i don't think there should be anything inherent to being a man or a woman in my eyes, you are just what you say you are.
Exactly, if you have to learn to be a man then you're already doing it wrong, just be yourself and treat people with respect.
We are what we make of ourselves.
@@chadatchison145 That's too reductive. Learning from others and growing is not a bad thing. It only applies to people that are already good 'men' and end up warping from that start point by learning from scumbags. A child learning from their parent or a person taking a leadership role they have little prior experience for, could be examples where one needs to learn or relearn how to apply themselves. To adjust who they are and how they interact with others, in this case, as a man.
Except for maybe genetalia, testorone and a completely different mindset. Men and women ARE inherently different. That's just how it is.
@@avivastudios2311 that is simply untrue on many levels. The whole "men are from mars women from venus " mindset is both alienating and a deep misunderstanding of the importance of the social structure that raises them. I'm not even going to try to go over the whole biology part of that comment, you seem to think testosterone is exclusive to men.
Okay, commenting again after having watched the video. Really great job! I’m surprised you didn’t talk too much about Dr. Doppler in this though - obviously he doesn’t really serve as a father figure to Jim, but he does represent a different view of masculinity and bravery. Not perfectly and not with too much focus, but still.
On another note, have you seen the show Black Sails? It’s sort of a treasure island prequel, but it has absolutely fascinating things to say about a wide array of subjects (sexuality and gender/masculinity, the concept of civilization, and more). It’s pretty violent and the first season has some aspects of it that are a bit weaker. It was airing when Game of Thrones was, and you get the sense that the writers were pressured to try and emulate that show in certain ways (like sex/nudity) but thankfully the show grows past that pretty quick.
I think Doppler‘s role would be a lot more interesting if his meek side wasn’t always the butt of the joke, and if the film + Amelia didn’t require him to skew closer to the classic masculine type before celebrating him.
Haven’t seen Black Sails but heard good things!
Masculinity AND Femininity are both good things that are required by ALL people. To say that either is toxic or unnecessary or anyrhing like that shows a very broken misunderstanding of the nature of not only humans, but life in gerneral.
This shows a severe misunderstanding of the concept of toxic masculinity. For toxic masculinity to exist, healthy masculinity must as well. No one’s saying all masculinity is toxic.
@TheShanicpower I'll dumb it down for you. Masculinity is not the reason people are dicks. That's like saying that chair is too much like a chair so it's toxic.
@@kylecarter1599I’ll dumb it down even further for you. Toxic masculinity/femininity are bad behaviours that are misrepresented as being masculine/feminine.
@@SarastistheSerpent my point exactly
@@kylecarter1599Sure, masculinity and femininity are made up concepts. That’s not the point, though. People are very subscribed to those made up concepts, and will often use them as a source for their toxicity.
Amazing. I really like the way you read the text against itself. A notice there's a somewhat hanging thread on the idea that masculinity might be divorced from maleness (the position you suggest along with the idea of a non-gendered maturity) as you seem to move straight from these two possibilities to the second. There's a tendency in the sort of post-feminist films that dot the 90s and 2000s to present the exceptional woman/girl, a person who is deemed a success because she succeeds at masculinity and thus 'has it all', reaffirming that society is not sexist and justifying the boys club nature of the rest of the cast, but there does remain a thread to pull in that concept in that it opens a breach in the linkage between masculinity and men.
I also find myself wondering that the sort of individualist loop the story forms by making the boarding Jim does the thing needd to save the world, vs the more communal nature of 'being a man' and part of the system when all these examples of masculinity are stunningly individualist, but that's probably a different question entirely about how masculinity can be both 'a thing inside you that defines who you are' and a category of person. It gets us back to those fundamental ruptures within the concepts of gender and individualism, so I suppose that's always going to be messy to handle.
I always saw this movie as a growth from a boy to a man, and that really kept me from fully embracing a ton of the story's messages. Now I see its kind of a mishmash of themes that allow you to decide what way you perceive it. Even if that wasn't the film's intended purpose haha. Anyways thank you for this vid, this is my favorite Disney film next to Atlantis and I'm so happy you decided to take the time to make this
This and atlantis the lost empire are incredible films
It's such good quality art, and your speculative read of it has increased my appreciation for it.
Art is made better when it has ambiguous parts we can add unto with our own experiences and pov, and it is best when shared with people who love it.
you got the makings of greatness in ya poggo
1:01 Jim is 15. Not 17.
This movie deserved so much better.
This deserves a big screen re release
I bet you’re fun at parties!
Treasure Planet might be my favourite Disney film. All interesting points that you put forward. I think the allusion to Jim's father being emotionally stunted by his experience in the imperial navy, though very likely unintentional, acts as a counterbalance to the other more dated messages of the film for me that bled through from the original novel. I like to think that despite his temporary betrayal, Silver helped Jim break a potential cycle there by instilling positive masculine ideals in him, so that he'd become a great leader and more emotionally available father to his own children should he have any. Amelia could've also had a role in this as the paragon like you said. I don't think these ideals can be instilled only by men, they're universal. I also like the idea that because of this, Jim eventually stepped away from his navy career in favour of becoming an explorer. That way he's rejecting the world that robbed him of his father and Silver's world, instead forging his own path. But that's just my headcanon.
This movie is so wildly underrated. It's one of my favorites.
I do not completely understand your point and I think the big point that threw me off was the beginning of the video.
I don't know your opinion on positive masculinity, most of the video seems extremely critical at masculinity and masculine role models.
Especially the montage at 3:19 seems to be implying some sort of ridiculousness in the argument that there isn't a stronger male role model on the left political spectrum, but you never specify why that is bad and then it becomes hard to really understand your overall point since you leave it mostly unsaid.
This movie gave me as kid an idea what good you can do as a man in socity. That you can be supportive and help people by be there and listen. And that other man needs support too. surely not the intended message but it is the one that stuck with me. I asked myself: what man do you want to become? today i can say i became the man i wanted to be😊.
A possitive male role model and icon of mental health for me is Kratos from "god of war: ragnarok". It was the first character that displayed the virtues, the struggle and the grow beyond that of a man in an honest light. And what i consider realistic.
I love the fact two of the four video video topic choices in your Patreon poll involve Rian Johnson.
sooner or later one’s gotta win, right?
@@PillarofGarbage Also, shame on you for resurrecting the cursed "The left is to blame for the rise of Andrew Tate" discourse.
I think the reading of Jim's father that the movie supports a lot more is actually of him as some kind of pirate-adjacent sailor, so he represents exactly the opposite of the kind of man Jim ends up becoming. It goes back to the navy vs. pirates dichotomy of adulthood/masculinity. The navy represents the positive, the mature men who are stable and normative, while the pirates are the kind of people who aren't able to have a family and lead a normal life
I'm gonna be honest, my entire life I've been afraid of my masculinity. For some reason or another I've always found myself surrounded by men who were below my standards. Standards my father actually builted into me. My relationship with my father is fairly similar to this film, my dad always did what was considered masculine in nearly every since and I idolized him throughout my life. It wasn't until recently that I've noticed my dad's flaws and I struggled to accept them. In conjunction I'm learning to deal with my own list of flaws and short coming.
If you don't mind me adding my own interpretation, the fim could be a story about how to build a more positive masculinity by learning how to take from influences. People who show how to accept the flaws and shortcoming while simultaneously understand the responsibilities that is expected of you and forge the concept nobility within you.
Cheesey I know but obviously I'm biased towards the film, keep up the good work.
I don't think you're wrong, but I think you thought about the movie more than Disney did.
Disney the company? Yes. But not their creators. Musker and Clements were creating this movie before The Little Mermaid. They had more than 15 years to plan this movie.
I don't remember this film at all, but according to my mum it was the first film I ever saw the cinema. So that's something I guess lmao
I was very offended by the "sexy cat-woman" gender-swapped captain, when I saw this in theaters at 19yo. In hindsight, that's because I was silently going crazy from repressed gender dysphoria and internalized self-hatred. Of course, masculinized women get to be badasses. Who's the role model in that movie for less masculine boys, though? The doctor is the effete "intellectual wimp" who gets paired off with the captain, so presumably that was supposed to be the example of a more "feminine" man being one of the good guys? Well... I didn't feel validated by any of it, especially the central narrative. Ironically, I spent a lot of time listening to that "I'm Still Here" song, during the crisis that led me to come out as trans. The movie didn't touch me much, but that song packs a punch, imo... Poetry can speak truer than prose, sometimes.
I'm not surprised this is a patreon choice.
My supporters have impeccable taste.
You should do Atlantis and Imperialism/ Atlantis and white supremacy/ Atlantis vs the British museum
That would be a nice companion piece, especially because while both 2D animated flops of that era have a lot in common they also have widely differing messages
The pain and pleasure of someone slotting neatly into another’s Missing Dad Trauma Hole™️ 😩
fr fr
Can't go wrong with a catgirl.
this is the only correct takeaway
I wonder how this film would have been received if Jim was a girl? Nothing different, just that. I know many little girls would have been ecstatic, at the very least.
I think you gave to much thought into the masculinity side of the movie instead of the maturity and fatherhood side of the movie because jim really needed a Dad someone to believe in him and teach him how to be a man and grow up. I myself grew up without my dad and loved this movie because it actually goes through the trauma of not having a dad which jusy makes you insecure, inmature and weak because you don’t know how to be a man which is why a lot of people like me have other men as father figures
Father figures are very important because they teach you the core values you need for life. Women can teach this qualities too but coming from an abandoned child myself i always wanted someone to look up to, to teach me right from wrong this man was my grandpa and i owe him a lot for it. If anything i think the movie needed a plotwist which is why silver had ulterior motives because without conflict characters can’t grow a story without problems to be solved by the characters is just… incomplete and doesn’t justifies for character grow. I feel like unlike disney’s most current work this movie wasn’t made with gender politics or the theme of masculinity to be the main subject but rather made with fatherhood and growing up to be the main theme
We should all strive to be reverse amoguses
By only having arms?
you should sink into the sea and stay there.
if you’re going to tell me I should die at least do it in a thematically appropriate way
this isn’t a sea movie! It’s a space movie!
WAS NOT EXPECTING VAUSH JUMPSCARE LMAO
every man has two TH-camrs inside him, Vaush and Little Joel
the one that wins is the one you feed
@@PillarofGarbage What's the difference between the two? I mean, I get that there are superficial differences, but on the deeper layers, the two are pretty similar, they just go about it differently
@@JonathanMandrake Holy Class Reductionism, Batman.
I remember seeing this as a kid and thinking the turtle at the start was saying "beware the sigh bar"
Just reading the title tells me you know nothing.
thanks for the engagement bucko 👍
XD This comment tells me all anyone needs to know about you!
@@Joaquin546 Ty
@@tupakkaonhyvaa 🤣🤣🤣 just keep digging yourself deeper!
@@Joaquin546 Why are you so excited? 😁 As if I hurt your family or something you are so dead set on arguing with me. Lol
As this is my favorite and most formative Disney film from my youth, I will be politely abstaining from the criticism of its values, but i love you and keep up the great work!
1:55 Joseph K is guilty, and he was entirely free through the whole of his arrest up until his verdict was received, after he refused his opportunity to listen and answer his accusers before they could say a word. At the very least he’s guilty of contempt to the process of self judgement and to the very idea he might be guilty of anything, but he is also guilty of lying to the court that he’d never try to give a bribe, and of sexually harassing his neighbour.
this is SUCH a great analysis. got me considering things i've never thought about, both in regards to this specific movie and more generally. thanks for making this vid :) u'd be a phenomenal english/literature teacher or professor.
What a nice comment! Thank you so much!
I think the idea of a toxic cycle or masculinity doesn't account for what Jim learns from his experience on the ship. He learns not only an earnest sense of responsibility, but also that he can be himself in that position, whether a breadwinner, leader, or crew member. The scenes that bookend the film sent this home relatively well, that in the beginning he engages risk-seeking behavior for the thrill and neglects his responsibilities to his mother and the emotional toll it takes on her, and by the end such similar behaviors are framed completely differently; he takes risks out of nessecity for everyone involved and knows his own abilities and limits and utilizes them while also receiving help, showing he is also part of a team, and that he is behaving not out of neglect of responsibility but in fulfillment of it. He has learned to use his skills and instincts, his quick thinking, to his advantage and it is with that full knowledge that he enrolls in and graduates from the military academy. Otherwise, the same enrollment may have become his only option, as it is for many, and he would not have adapted nearly as well. It is from this cycle that I believe he has probably escaped, his father was likely confronted with a role he did not feel he could step up to fulfill, as a soldier or a father. Jim has stepped into his role as part of a crew, a team, and has experienced several positive role models in his life. He has always cared for his mom, as his father may have as well, but Jim has nothing to pretend about anymore. He has gained the skills and confidence to live his life with success and celebration. As a children's movie it seems as well implied as they could manage.
Could you then also take a look at the 1988 USSR treasure island anti drinking musical movie thing.
yes, its probably propaganda but propaganda can be funny
@@marocat4749 It is not more propaganda then it started out as, now it is just anti drinking, having rum and death mean the same thing.
Idk, I kinda like that it doesn't get bogged down in exploring gender politics and the ripple effect it therefore places on the story. Amelia doesn't become yet another fierce female who fought against stereotypes and is really just one of the boys deep down. She is just a woman. And it teaches boys that they can be men without -being men-, it adds to what being a man is, saying it doesn't require you to exclude women and hold them to inferior societal roles for the elevation of your own. Amelia hasn't denied any ounce of femininity so she can fit into a man's world, the man's world is now her world, and it is just... the world. What better a way to teach boys than to let them see women in more than single roles as carers (mothers, nurses, nuns, sisters, housewives, etc). It reframes what "masculinity" is.
I like seeing a take where the men aren't asked to change for the sake of the woman's presence, and the woman isn't asked to change for the sake of the men's presence. A possibly accidentally nuanced take on what gender roles would look like in a sci-fi society, the presence of robots isn't questioned as to how it impacts the masculinity of the characters (robots which are presumably stronger and more capable than biological creatures, and do not have a natural gender other than what is imposed on them seemingly through the roles they fill in society), nor is the daring presence of a woman on the crew.
Don't get me wrong, I like these results too. I just think they're largely accidental, and that they exist alongside other, less progressive strains of thought in the film.
@@PillarofGarbagei think emilia was a good example of a strong woman which was fierce and could be with men and be respected being smart capable and brave and as you see in the show she respected her peers and congratulated them in public when they did something good, emilia was a good leader. But also never lost her femininity becoming a mom at the end i think that actually tells women that they can be both…. And it tells men that women can be in those positions of power and be respected but the truth is that to do so they do end up absorbing masculine traits
Something I noticed in my recent watch of treasure planet is that both Jim and silver have left ear piercings. It's a common belief that left ear piercings indicates being straight and right ear piercings indicates being gay. "Left is right and right is wrong" it's interesting to me they made that detail, the whole left ear, right ear thing was a bigger deal while this movie was being made. But perhaps I'm looking into it too much as an adult gay guy who grew up with no father figures in my life. Being gay and finding an older gay male role model is something that feels so rare and this movie is probably the closest thing to that. Kind of related but I think what makes this movie so unique is that it doesn't really have the traditional bad guy Disney villain going on, it's a complex relationship that has its ups and downs instead. I feel the same about the first how to train your dragon movie with how hiccups dad isn't really the villain and they just have a complex relationship, it's so refreshing to see that in animated movies.
I wonder you do an video essay on why Wish was overhated animated film and why it isn't much as the best Disney animated film they thought it would.
Wild Vaush appearance! Based
We're like they said you should never meet your heroes. I guess sometimes you shouldn't work with them either.
Oooh, very interested in seeing what you say on this.
I own a very old copy of treasure island I found at a Goodwill store I have no idea how old it is because the page that would have had the date in it was gone
two women kissing isn't political. bye.
Dude watches the greatest Disney movie of all time and inserts his own want for the movie to be about masculinity into it. Repeatedly says "the movie seems to be unaware of," that's because this movie wasn't made with masculinity as part of the message. You just spent a whole video projecting what you wanted to talk about into a movie that had nothing to do with the message you wanted talk about. Bravo, you made a bad video arguing points that only exist because of your forced injection of ideas. You're doing the thing you complain other critics do when dishonestly reviewing movies.
Greatly enjoyed this onion trifle.
Damn this film is good
Left the doctor out, even though he fills the clips.
I did not leave the doctor out, I simply did not include him. No details of Doppler's story/arc significantly affect my reading of masculinity in Treasure Planet (the argument given in the video) either way.
As I wrote in another comment, I think Doppler‘s role would be a lot more interesting if his meek side wasn’t always the butt of the joke, and if the film and Amelia didn’t require him to skew closer to classic masculinity before celebrating him. Since this isn't the case, though, I feel Doppler fits neatly into the general outline I give at 12:10 - hence the lack of any discussion specific to him.
@PillarofGarbage I value your work and the effort it represents, but do not always agree with you. Choosing not to include a figure who is present throughout the movie while focusing part of the video on one with no lines, no face, and no action other than leaving seems very much to constitute leaving the doctor out. Doppler stands up to the guards, escapes with Jim and his mother and sticks with them, convinces Jim's mother to let him chase the treasure, funds the expedition, and convinces a pirate not to harm his friend in semi-fluent Flatulon. All this before he even meets the Captain. The fact that the doctor is constantly reaching beyond his capabilities to aid others (and that he sometimes stumbles as a result) is a version of masculinity that I personally value, and I think that to echo the dismissal of some of the movie's characters (including Jim) is a mistake.
I adore this film but the ending always rubbed me the wrong way, I was kinda hoping that Jim wouldn't become a naval officer/cadet and broke the cycle instead
I love this movie
I remember liking this movie but forgot most of it.
COULD you do a video on 19th century British boy's literature? That would be imperially awesome...
Never say never! There’s a lot to dig into there.
…but I don’t see it being a huge performer, so it might have to wait a while.
@@PillarofGarbage what if I promise to rewatch it every day, like minimum 100x
because I am that crazy about the idea. You could pair it with a video about Robert E Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs....
Very fascinating and insightful video essay, good work.
i swear to god my guy if you talk shit about my boys jim and silver i will never forgive you
I know it is a bit late in the game to Name change ... but just consider the moniker 'Pillar of good ideas, stacked on other good ideas," mull it over... I can wait
So my take away is... having a cool cyborg arm and laser eye is what it means to be a real man. Gotcha. Now where do I find a laser eye.... hmmm...
Masculinity is an important trait to instill in young men. We’ve known this for thousands of years.
I was actually really bothered by the portrayal of Silver as a positive role model/father figure. I much prefer the complicated relationship between Silver and Jim in Muppet Treasure Island, where Tim Curry is manipulating and gaslighting Jim, and yet there is genuine affection. Curry's Silver is obviously a bad guy all the way, and yet you understand Jim's ambivalence.
I haven’t seen Muppet Treasure Island, but this does seem a far closer dynamic to RLS’ novel. That being said, I do think their Treasure Planet dynamic is fun too - just in a more _Disney_ way.
@@PillarofGarbage Muppet Treasure Island, like Muppet Christmas Carol, is a shockingly accurate adaptation.
vowsh in the PoG vid?!?!?
Love from a JeremyJahns and Vaush fan!
Also Amelia gets injured the minute they set foot on the island and effectively sits out the entire third act. Felt like a waste of a great character and more than a little sexist
Translation: "I wasted 100k on a useless degree in gender studies"
I usually like Pillar’s take but I will have to disagree on some of his ideas on Amelia. She is a character well ahead of the time the movie came out. I love her character because she portrays something that I have always felt about gender norms. That it’s more important to be a good person before being a good woman or man. I doesn’t make sense to me taking the attributes of a good human and dividing half of them to men and half to woman. If the best version of yourself is a highly empathetic man or charismatic leadership as a woman, that shouldn’t be considered as not “normative”. You shouldn’t be defined by your hormones or genitalia.
Doppler's a way less interesting name than Livesey for the Doctor imo.
Treasure planet? More like
how hungry were you while writing this?
So is anyone going to point out that the second mate takes up most of the primary masculine roles when the captain is gender swaped 😂
I really liked titan AE more. Which is , i just like thatHe too has that silver character take im under his wing, partly vecause his genetic marker unlocks the map, but he does, ok he does not kill him. And he still takes him from driffting lost refugee to a goal, including his dad.
And still in the end him standig up does make him, my plans are scrwed, ok, o wikk do that heroic sacrifice, you happy now?!
Ok i just like it better asspace treasure island also ,like the treasure, , finding a home as refugee, and a bit moses i guess.
And good message, that hmanities last resort, by the military noless, is that beautiful.
why is there a rat-human
Surprise Voosh
🪐🏴☠️
its about jim being trans actually
holy shit are you the hytale guy
I uhhh don’t know what this means
Another "toxic masculinity" breadtuber clownworld video
The fact that the captain was gender-swapped "Disney doesn't seem to realize this" ...meaning that the pillar of garbage thinks unless a film has an after-school-special "Hey kids, women can be role models too!!!" explicitly stated, it was unconscious. Completely disingenuous.
This is, fairly clearly, not the point I made in the video.
What the fuck are you talking about???
Meh, gave up after a minute; this one wasn't for me. But I quite like this channel regardless.
bro missed my hilarious among us joke 💀
@@PillarofGarbage What's an imposter's favourite weapon? Answer: A Nintendo Switch-blade.
See? Already knew it.