SEE YOU ON WEDNESDAY FOR "Keep Your Friends Close" + "Ruthlessness"! To watch the unedited version of our R/As for Ocean Saga AND Circe Saga, join my Patreon here - www.patreon.com/CFReacts
Hey, you both, I'd recommend the animatic for Luck runs out by Jen vampiresi. It was just unluckily released by about one week after your reaction. And the one by crashite is also good.
For me, how I interpret Luck Runs Out, is that Odysseus is putting on this show of confidence in this song. He doesn't want his crew discouraged and wants to look strong in front of his men. That's why (to me) when Odysseus pulls Eurylochus aside, his voice gets much darker. That's the real Odysseus. (Again this is just my interpretation)
My sister and I thought the same thing. It was like Odysseus saying that "Hey I know that this may not be the best course of action but I have no other plans. But if you keep doubting me in front of the crew, this would not help"
I think so too. It's not a "Yo, if you have any concerns on the future, just don't voice them", it's a "Look, shit already went south, and you undermining my authority as both general and king in front of everyone, planting seeds of doubt and a possible rebellion, is the last thing any of us need right now. Do you have a better plan? No. Do I have any other plan? Also no. Until now, my plans only went wrong once, so PLEASE just shut up and comply"
I also think his voice got kinda darker bc he's ig kinda scolding eury? Like how jay mentioned in his recap of epic basically what odysseus was saying is like "WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM-?"
Jorge has mentioned before that the whole point of this song is to show how Eurylychus is influencing the men, that’s why when he sings you hear the backing vocals. Which is WHY Odysseus is pissed and takes him aside.
This was my first thought as well, along with showing Eurylychus's 'better safe than sorry' mentality. Because you get a sense that Eurylychus is the representation of the crew (in that the background vocals in Full Speed Ahead don't appear until Eurylychus does, and they back Eury instead of Ody), but this song pushes that further into showing that Eury is the intermediary between Ody and the crew, and that the crew largely trusts Eury, and Ody as a result, instead of trusting Ody directly. This then leads into the crew siding with Eury in Mutiny and also into why I have no remorse for Ody choosing his life over those of his crew. Because in my mind, the rest of the crew had slain a cow alongside Eury, or they were getting ready to. Furthermore, the crew had already demonstrated their ability to side with either Eury or Ody, so even if they weren't actively engaging in the slaughter, they still implicitly agreed with Eury's actions when they didn't heed Ody's warnings and stop Eury.
I just figure it's they've been stuck in this ROILING storm that is just almost certainly going to kill them all and he's just spotted a potential out you know
It’s also hilarious when you think about the.. habits of men in Ancient Greece. Think olive oil Edit: this was not supposed to sound as disapproving as it probably does😬 it was very common for men to have some kind of sexual relationship with other men in their youth. Either as an apprentice or a soldier
@@sarahhandberg5185 To be fair, it was the norm in militaries up into the British Empire. It's just that after the Catholic Church came about, it was frowned upon, while in Greece bisexuality was the norm, and in Rome it was literal law. (i.e., a Centurion was not allowed to marry while serving in the military, could not "sully" a non-married Roman woman nor take another man's wife, and could not dishonor himself by hiring a prostitute, which left sacking a non-Roman village and taking the women, or getting themselves a slave boy, who usually became a beloved life partner... think "Jesus and the Centurion" in the Gospel for an example of this.) "Buggery Laws" came about because it was SOOOO common on British ships, it started to become a problem once the men got back onshore and realized the rest of "civilized" society was... um, less than accepting, to put it mildly.
@@rhov-anion yeah I know. I didn’t know there were laws but I know it was the norm back then. I find the whole thing incredibly interesting, especially considering how far away from that we got
This one hits hard and I can start to see some real cracks showing in the boys. Something I noticed on re-listening is a tone shift not just in Odysseus, but Eurylochus. His argument is solid... at the start. "Wait... stop, think. Don't just run at this god without a plan." Solid advice. The crew is a bit shaken from everything. It has been rough. His friend and king has 'that look' again of adventure. But this changes when the crew chimes in. This conversation shouldn't have been in public. You don't question your general, captain, or King in front of the men. You speak privately. You trust. A slight slip up? Probably, but as the men/crew start to agree with him Eurylochus starts to become bolder. He oversteps... Odysseus even calls him on this, "where is this attitude coming from?" And Eurylochus tries to cover it (maybe even believes it) saying he doesn't want to see more of the men die... in front of the men. Odysseus at this moment takes a tactic shift and almost puts on the "king face" mask. He addresses Eurylochus. He answers his questions and accusations/concerns direcly but you can feel he isn't speaking to Eurylochus anymore. He is speaking to his large army who is very clearly overhearing this exchange. Odysseus is perfoming here, as King. Reminds them he is an amazing leader, cares for them, empathic to their plite, and is with them. And then humbles his second publicly and asks him to step into "the office". After separating Eurylochus he reminds him of his role and checks him quick and you can hear Eurylochus back down and seem almost shocked at himself and his own actions. You mentioned Athena's influence with the piano? I don't know if it's true but I love it so much to let go of the idea of her own influence on Eurylochus. Edit: removed potential spoiler. Not risking it.
8:20 So just wanted to add some stuff about Polities headband ^^ Wolfy animated Odysseus taking it and wrapping it around his arm, a lot of other animators have interpreted it as Odysseus taking Polities headband and wearing it as his own headband. For instance Gigi's Odysseus does not have a headband in the first two songs and from the Ocean saga onwards their Odysseus has a headband. Aka he took Polities's headband ^^ Also another fun fact, Wolfy did the headband around the arm cause they don't like drawing headbands, they said this on their Instagram on one of their drawings of Odysseus. ^^
I am probably way too late for that, but I wanted to try it nevertheless: Some other animators took a really nice turn with the headband as well. For example the other luck runs out animation from crashite also has the headband and when eury said "What do we do, when it taers us apart", he actually tries to take it from him. And later on... I think the animatic from Noir.Hyacinth for the ACT I closer has a really really nice turn to that one as well. There is also a few other callbacks as well as foreshadowing in that Closer, so I would always recommend watching it, if you are not listening to the song for the first time :)
(spoilers for mutiny) even funnier when you consider it’s very possible odysseus might end up killing eurylochus in mutiny! (it’s in the next saga, so we’ll find out soon enough lol) citimine: odysseus, you’re back!!! where’s my husband? odysseus: he got killed, sorry citimine: that’s terrible, what happened????? :( odysseus: odysseus: uh
25:49 Also, Polites' blind trust in the lotus eaters is what led to the whole encounter and misunderstanding with Polyphemus. His philosophy of greet the world with Open Arms is nice in practice but it ultimately isn't one that is rewarded a lot in the Greek world of monsters and gods that they live in.
@tytanm-2380 to be fair, it gave them food, without it they would have starved. and killing all of the lotus eaters would have done nothing but bring pain to the world. spoilers and Polites world view works out with circe.
One thing i love about this song. is how when the backing vocals start to sing along with Eurylochus. We can take it as the other crew members already doubting Odysseus. In such a short time he's lost two important figures, who both add something to his moral compass. So hes feeling even more guilty for his actions. And so now odysseus is overcompensating for the loss of polites, by trying to cling to the ideals of his best friend. If he doesnt then his argument with Athena will have been for nothing. Everything's changed since Polites, so 😭😔😈
which is insane to me because he kept 600 people alive for 10 years of war but the minute ANY of them die they all start going rogue on him like... hello????
@@lilaculots right! I completely agree. but i think it brings to the forefront just how fickle people can be. also how important true friendships are. his crew weren't his friends, they followed him so long as he did everything right. even with all the things he did to try and save them. like yeah he messed up a bunch, but he also tried his best and almost succeeded in getting the majority of the men home. like i haven't read the odyssey, but from what i've seen online. it seems aside from Odysseus's hubris, his crew was a very large reason for their failure to make it home.
@@AtomicFoxMimi yeah, that's a really fair point. jorje, bless him, tries to present it equally with the men going "nothing's been the same since polites :/" yeah dingus that event was literally the first major loss your army experienced, do you have any idea how many armies would have killed for that kind of good fortune
@@lilaculots You have a super good point, but even if they have a fantastic track record, they're also tired of war and of being away from home. They may not have suffered big losses, but their fatigue is real. This isn't just a "everything was amazing right before the cyclops incident"-thing, even if they were happy to have won the war.
Eurylochus and Odysseus are actually brother in laws because he married Odysseus sister before they went off to war so the mentioning of "brother" has another meaning besides just the "you're my second in command, you've been my brother in arms during all of this"
Fun fact, that’s not a spoiler for epic, but just information from specifically homer in Greek mythology there is a main guardian, which is Aeolus, son of hippotes, and each of the wind directions is interpreted by different Guardian of the wind so there is one for the north wind, Boreas , the south wind, Notus, the east wind, Eurus, and the west wind Zephyrus.
I'm here to bring your attention to the description which just says "I'm still sad and I still miss polites" Same Casper, same. See y'all at the premiere :D
Something I noticed that I didn't see you guys mention, is that whenever Eurylochus (how the F do you spell his name?!) DOESN'T have a leading/solo part in the songs, but the crew is singing, Eurylochus leads the back-up vocals. You hear it especially in the Cyclopse Saga.
Fun fact! Athena would often take the form of people that Odysseus or Telemachus knew as people they could trust as a way to continue their path towards home/finding eachother! I’m not sure if that’s why the piano is there with Erylochus but it could make sense! From my own memory I know she turned into Hector and some of the suitors once or twice so it’s plausible that she is still attempting to make him see reason through Eurylochus here! Also in Greek Myth there were four wind gods of the cardinal directions, none of whom are Aolous! They were known as the Anemoi. Aeolus is in fact the Keeper of the Anemoi however
Also, there are multiple Greek gods of the wind and they're called the Anemoi but the 4 main ones- the North Wind (Boreas), South Wind (Notus), East Wind (Eurus), and West Wind (Zephryus) while Aeolus is the Keeper of the Four Winds, which is why they're the one solely able to provide Odysseus with the bag of winds.
Funny cause my mum asked me to explain de Odyssey to her and she had the exact same "no" when I got to the part Poseidon tells Odysseus the cyclops was his son.
both Odysseus and Eurylochus screw up in this interaction, one should have pulled the other aside first to talk in private and the other should be more open to hearing opposition.
THE FACT THAT THD TITLE IS “I HATE HIM” IS MEANING HES SO DONE WITH MORTIS MAKING HIM HAVE A MENTAL BREAKDOWN OR WERE TAKING ABOUT POSEIDON. EITHER WAY IM EXCITED 😂😂
Odysseus, in my opinion, led with only his brain until Athena left. Once she left, he started feeling more emotion, and bc of that he's leading with his heart more in this saga. He may not realize it, but he seems that way. I believe he's trying to keep Polites alive by leading with his heart
Yeah Lampyrcy isn't usually the animator you want to go with for the first watch because they really have their own version of what's going on in Epic, but are great for a second or third animation to watch. Unfortunately when it comes to having options for some songs you just run out of luck (bdun tss) and the one by them is the only good one available. Another thing that can be a little misleading about this one is that because it's focused on shipping Odysseus and Eurylochus, it doesn't show that the crew comes in and is starting to agree with questioning Odysseus, which is part of why he pulls Eurylochus aside. It is not out of pocket when you realize he has 600 warrior men that are at risk of deciding they don't trust their leader anymore.
@@legitimatemedicine Yep, that's why I mentioned that this one is the only good one available. The only other full length animatic uses an unfinished version of the song, and the rest of the animatics I've found have been OC ones using the song rather than an animatic for the song itself.
Absolutely agreed. This animatic is so yaoi-brained, (let's not forget that these men are not only both married, but also Brothers-in-Law,) that it loses the literal plot almost completely.
@Macabrellian I'll never fault shipping or looking at people in story through a queer lense, but yeah. It'd be like the only videos on Elden Ring lore being focused on shipping the player with Ranni lol.
@@legitimatemedicine Oh yeah especially anything based on Ancient Greece. I feel like finding subtext or just straight up text there is just par for the course, and with some things could probably be the main focus with absolutely no issue (anything with Achilles and Patroclus for example). And it's fun to have that available as an option. But yeah it causes some focus away from what the canon of the story is so far and definitely takes more creative liberties, which can be confusing for someone who hasn't gotten familiar with the songs yet and is used to the animatics being based off of Jorge's notes rather than an independent vision.
It’s really great that you guys are telling other people about this series because recently, after seeing your guys’ first videos, my TH-cam fyp has been exploding with reactions that have been made in the last month of people finding out about Epic. This is finally the beginning of it’s inevitable fame.
NO SPOILERS, but LRO imho is one of the most significant songs emotional development-wise, it's a gift that keeps on giving. the 600 men line drastically changes the perception, because now Odysseus is *experienced* , not extremely overconfident. and that fact doesn't just affect himself, but also the team. for 10 years in Troy they were basically untouchable as long as they followed their infallible leader. and now they have to reconcile the fact that Odysseus is *not* infallible. and Eurylochus has to manage them, as well as being Odysseus' last remaining confidant and having front row seat to his emotional spiral. AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT, none of these men know how to deal with grief properly, because they didn't have to fear for their closest people in Troy. Poletes had the most EQ in the team, if not the musical, and he's dead. kinda explains the second act, doesn't it.
“Eurylochus, the second in command, tells Odysseus, ‘hey, I’m starting to have some doubts about you. And instead of telling you in private, I’m gonna say it right here, in front of everyone.’ And so Odysseus is like, ‘thank you for doing that, now let me talk to you in private. WhAt ThE Hell IS WrOnG WiTH yOU?’” -Epic The Musical Sagas 1-4 recap
Okay I'm further in and I would like to understand what CF has been seeing that makes him feel that Odysseus has been becoming closer to a monster until this point, because all the textual evidence I've seen seems to show the opposite. He seems to have been pulling AWAY from violence after killing the infant. That was even part of the reason Athena dumped him. I think CF has somehow really mischaracterized Odysseus up to this point. And even Mortius has missed some stuff considering saying that he didn't have to deal with consequences from killing the infant but he absolutely has. Warning for a really long comment ahead. But I feel the need to really break some stuff down. From the start Odysseus had reservations about violence outside of the actions taken to win the war. He didn't want to kill the infant. He was told directly by Zeus "Kill the infant, or your kingom will be destroyed and everyone you love will die. Penelope in particular definitely will die." In greek mythology, prophecies will come true. He may be a monster for killing an innocent child, but how much more of one would he have been for the many innocent Ithacan infants that would die. "He will burn your house and throne" would mean any relative of his would be killed in the slaughter, probably anyone working for him as well. Some of those definitely will also be infants. If you want to take it to the worst interpretation throne could mean all of Ithaca would be destroyed, though it could just mean that his bloodline and their rulership would be destroyed. Which would still lead to widespread violence in the ensuing power vacuum. Even after being told that he was trying to find another way. He did NOT want to do it. He went through with killing when Zeus made it clear there was no other option. "The blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you can choose is whose." Now following that in full speed ahead, he ONCE AGAIN chooses the non violent option as his default, only this time he actually can. When Eurylochus says "600 reasons to take what we can" instead of "taking" from other people Odysseus defaults to findong somewhere they can hunt for food instead. Then later Eurylochus directly says he wants them to RAID the island. Odysseus directly shuts that down. "We should try and find a way no one ends up dead." Polites definitely has a more trusting outlook, but Odysseus has been very far from "Descending into a monster." He tries negotiating with the cyclops, and though he does poison the wine at that point he had no guarantee the negotiations would work. So a morally dubious action taken against someone who just mentioned wanting to eat them. They didn't know the sheep were owned, let alone considered beloved friends to the cyclops, so up until then their transgression had been an honest mistake. At multiple points he's mentioned how much of a toll killing takes on him. During Just A Man there's this line. "Will these actions haunt my days, every man I've slain? Is the price I pay endless pain?" During the big breakup with his divine sugar momma, he mentions how much of a toll the death is taking on him. "Unlike you, every time someone dies I'm left to deal with the strain". It's been taking a toll on him even before losing Polites and his men. He was not okay with killing the infant. It has traumatized him, and losing his men even more so. He doesn't want to have to kill, and has been doing what he can to avoid it especially since killing the infant. Now that he's lost Polites he's leaning even more into Polites' view. That isn't surprising considering he has, once again, been very far from "descending into a monster". Now, my conclusion from this is partially speculation but is informed by an understanding of the way people respond to trauma. I think Odysseus is traumatized both by his own action at Troy, and his inaction after Polites' death. He desperately wants to avoid more death, whether that's his men getting killed or it's having to take another life. He's haunted by his actions, so what is he doing here? Embracing Polites' world view as an attempt to cling to the comfort his friend brought him. Now, him full on embracing the open arms lead from the heart thing would be out of pocket if he hadn't just lost so much. He's still responding from trauma right now though. He doesn't have Polites anymore, but he does have his philosophy and if he doesn't embrace that now, then he would be letting Polites down. Also if he doesn't double down on mercy and everything Athena was against, then what was the point of losing Athena? Again that bit is just speculation on my part but I do think it lines up. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts! I see where you're coming from regarding Odysseus's reluctance towards violence and his attempts to choose non-violent options. My perspective is more about the creeping sense of corruption Odysseus feels. It's not that he's actively choosing to be a monster, but rather that the horrific things he's had to do and endure are gradually taking a toll on him. The animatics, especially during the cyclops saga, visually emphasize this descent into a darker place. I agree that he's been trying to avoid violence and that he’s haunted by his past actions. However, the ongoing trauma and the heavy burden of his decisions seem to push him closer to that monstrous edge, even if he's fighting against it. I appreciate your insights and think it's great that we can explore these complex layers of his character together! :)
@@CFEntertains That makes a lot of sense, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain where you're coming from. I interpreted what you were saying as meaning that Odysseus himself had been giving into and actively embracing the darkness already rather than it just begining to accumulate and take a toll on him. Him being the source of dark rather than being in a dark place. I think I definitely agree with that, with the darkness of everything weighing on him. Polites even points it out at multiple times in Open Arms. I think with that in mind the best way to describe what he's doing here fits in with what you two discussed about how this man essentially has no chill and only goes 100% when maybe 60% would have been a better option. He has decided to lean into Polites' world view, and is leaning so hard into it that it is jarring for many people watching. I look forward to seeing your future reactions and to seeing what you think about the way his psyche develops over this in response to everything. Y'all are probably my favorite Epic reactors and I love how you break everything down. Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me.
@@feistsorcerer2251 absolutely love that we can have discussions like this - and thank you so much for your kind words, im happy you're enjoying the content!
@@jignesharya2421 I am not kidding when I tell you that the death of Polites has hit me harder than any other character death. Ever. Others will now experience the same pain and I will not stop showing other people until I find someone who will feel it as deeply as I did - basically im the monster rawr rawr
As a trickster hero, Oddyseus often can't explain his plans to his crew until after they're started. He's probably worried about a crewmate going rogue midway through one of his deceptions. If a crewmate had broken rank and run in the cyclopse cave, the "Nobody" gambit would have failed and they all would have died. Obviously he's ignoring sound advice here, but the way Oddyseus solves problems requires a level of unquestioning obedience, since the plan will make sense once all the strings come together. A disobediant sailor could ruin his plans at a critical moment
I was told in the comments of a previous video that this is one of the lesser popular songs from EPIC - that could be why it's not getting as much attention as the others when it comes to animatics
With regard to the “floating Islands” floating in the sky in Jorge’s version I just look at it as “This is an anime and video game inspired take on The Odyssey. So if it has some weird bits that’s just part of the charm of this adaptation.”
I've always interpreted what he said to Eurylocus was about his public behavior, not telling him to never speak up. He said "planting seeds of doubt" - which implies his words reaching other ears and making them question Odysseus since even his second in command is disagreeing publically. He needs to be compliant and devout. I imagined Odysseus was saying that when he makes an order to his men, he needs all of them to comply in the moment. Any hesitation could result in severe consequences if it happened in critical moments. Like if his men hesitated to follow his orders when they were fighting the Cyclops. The discord Eurylocus caused among the crew lingers. I had a job at a summer camp once where there seemed to be no sense of privacy and respect from my bosses. They discussed my private matters and criticized me in front of my coworkers and campers. Even my immediate supervisor was criticized in front of me and my fellow coworkers. It made my job a lot harder because campers started to undermine and disobey me, sometimes resulting in more criticism aimed at me, and it made it hard to keep them in order and safe. I ended up having a public meltdown when one of my coworkers started yelling at me for not immediately acting when a fight broke out, and I was still trying to process the situation. It was the first job I ever quit because I felt so disrespected and unsupported being There is also the point that second in commands are not always advisors though they can function as one if they are speaking from their area of expertise (military officer). They make sure orders from the captain are carried out and act as a messenger between captain and crew. Odysseus allows him to share his input because he trusts him and values him and their relationship, and those discussions should be private. Eurylocus is not a faultless voice of reason. He's overly cautious and is a shoot first, ask questions later type - which is not always the right approach. It does suck that Polites isn't there as a counterbalance, and Odysseus overly embraced Polites philosophy probably as a way to remember or honor him. Odysseus, in the beginning, was the middle of Polites and Eurylocus's extremes, but the balance has been shifted.
Odysseus having managed to get through the war without losing any men proved his competence as a military commander during war. His mistakes after the war prove he's not as good of a ship fleet's captain.
Yes! And war is a known quantity, with rules of engagement; he's been trained for it his whole life, by a literal goddess no less. The moment he faced the unknown things started going south.
So another thing about that little speech at the end: the storm from song 1 is still going on. Odysseus sees the home of the wind god, and goes "the god of wind seems to be the best way to get rid of the storm blocking our path." Then Eurylochus is just like "nooo bad idea" with no alternative ideas of his own, and no real reason other than "your luck is bad, and people die when you make plans". I think Ody is perfectly justified in telling Eurylochus to shut up there. And even if he weren't justified, his fatal flaw is pride. Eurylochus questioned his judgement in front of EVERYONE. Not only that, but in doing so, started planting "seeds of doubt" in the crew about whether Ody is even fit to lead. His pride is not gonna like that.
10:13 something I just noticed is this is the only time Odysseus uses "friend" to refer to Eurylochos or any of the crew for that matter, and the only other person who used that term was Polites ("You can relax, my friend") :(
Idk if you just meant it was the only time _up to this point_ or what, but this is definitely _not_ the only time Odysseus uses "friend" to refer to any of the crew. I can think of at least one more time off the top of my head: He refers to them all collectively as "friends" (and then "comrades") in The Underworld.
So just as a slight challenge to this being a radical change to Odysseus keep in mind it was Odysseus who said in full speed ahead that they should find a way that no one winds up dead. He was already doubting resorting to violence and looking for a different way. The death of his friend just rammed that home in he wants to honor his friend.
I think part of Odysseus' cavilier attitude when going up to speak to Aeolus is partially a show for his men. He has to maintain an appearance of strength for their sake, both as their king & after suffering their first loss of men in all of the 10+ years they've been away from home. That's why he gets upset with Eurylochus & pulls him aside. They (the crew) can't be anything but a united front with their captain for survival. Eurylochus questioning Odysseus like that only weakens that front from Odysseus' POV I think part of it too is based in Odysseus' relationship with Athena. He had her in his life from a pretty young age, whereas most greeks NEVER interacted with the gods. The gods were to be respected & feared. But Athena was a helpful & benevolent (if strict & demanding) force in his life. And then there was Zeus, who warned him about the baby potentially destroying him later in his life. Yeah, Zeus asked him to do something horrible, but it ultimately helped Odysseus. With those interactions in mind, I dont think it's that surprising for Odysseus to go up to Aeolus and ask "hey, can you help us out?" His direct interactions with the gods have been pretty beneficial up to then.
Not sure if anyone has already said this, but in the original text, Aeolus is the keeper of the winds, esensially the ruler of the four wind gods collectively known as the Anemoi. His bag contained the north, east and south winds, but the "gentle" west wind was sent forth to carry Odysseus home. In fact they almost made it, they could see the island when the crew opened the bag, beliving it was treasure, and they were carried all the way back to Aeolus. He, rightly, thought they were idiots and refused to help them again. They sail on to the land of the giants and it is the giants that kill most of Odysseus' men. Poseidon doesnt directly kill them, like in Ruthlessness (fantastic song btw), but he is making the storms that forces Odysseus to go on this crazy route. I dont think the original Odyssey is intended to imply that Odysseus is in the wrong when his men are killed, infact its mostly the crew's fault everything goes wrong, but i love the creative liberty that Jay has taken with this to explore the theme of guilt and ruthlessness. EPIC!!
13:24 Regarding the winds. The god Aeolus is the ruler of the winds, The Anemoi. There are 4 gods representing the cardinal directions Boreas (the north wind), Notus (the south wind), Zephyrus or Zephyr (the west wind), Eurus (the east wind). And 4 more representing the in-betweens: Kaikias (the northeast wind), Apeliotes (the southeast wind), Skeiron (the northwest wind), Lips (the southwest wind). The Anemoi are depicted as gusts of wind or winged men and sometimes depicted as horses in Aeolus's stable
I love mortius' take that Odysseus makes correct decisions but goes 30% too far, but i have to add that it just makes him so goddamned human. It's so good and Jorge is amazing for how he does his characters!
I can see the sense in what Casper is saying because Athena definitely never let go of Odysseus and in some interpretations then goes on to mentor Telemachus (or another child he has with Circe (but that’s not cannon).
The Anemoi are the four winds of the cardinal directions. There isn't really a "wind god" in Greek mythology, only a keeper/lord of the winds (Aeolus) and the personification of the winds from the four cardinal directions (Anemoi). Jorge took some liberty here and made Aeolus the wind god.
About his "turning" I have a theory. Polites's death changed Odysseus. Before he died, Odysseus killed a child, tried to attack the lotus eaters, and attacked Polyphemus. After Polites died, Odysseus had a shift in his character. He spares the cyclops after his death and tries to change his mindset to one more open because that may keep people from dying. Theres more evidence to support this but that goes into spoiler territory
Nah this is also the era where a mutiny could get everybody killed. Odysseus is tryna avoid that. He's being a sensible captain. I feel like if Eurylochus had voiced his concerns in private he might've been more receptive.
A bit of mythology clarification, if you don't mind. Aelous is actually the immortal lord of winds, not the actual god. There are at least four gods of wind, each one for each direction on a compass, North, South, etc. It should also be mentioned that Aelous has twelve sons and twelve daughters who are married to each other living in his palace. I don't know if this TMI, but a bit of a fun fact. I also love that as they were talking about the sexual tension displayed in the animatic, Casper just goes "It's Greek." Everyone who ships Patroclus and Achilles totally agrees with you!
I had some time to mull over what you guys said about the argument between our lads. Yeah, it is very weird that it would be brought up in this manner until I realized something. Eurylochus is acting in his role as Voice of the Men. He brings up these topics openly because the crew were having doubts and worries of their own so he, as a figure Oddy respects, can bring them up to him publically and as he clearly usually does he is given the chance to explain things and lay their worries to rest. Which he kinda does but it's pretty clear no one was really satisfied by what he said this time. Eurylochus seems rather taken off guard and aback by what goes on next which to me says this is not the norm. Oddy bills himself as a man of his people, keeping them all safe as one of them even if he is so far above them as partly divine king. So this is a fracture in their relationship and everyone can feel it.
2nd in commands role is not to undermine a comander or captain but rather to offer sugestions and information to the captain. But once they have made a decision it is the 1st mates job to carry out those orders. If you want a good example of this explored, Commander Data and Worf in Star Trek TNG have this kind of discussion.
I love how you were talking about how odysseus had changed too drastically right before he pulled him aside and let the mask slip to show the scary king lurking beneath 😂😂❤❤
TBF a floating island even in the water would be more susceptible to moving via winds, so while I do definitely prefer Jorge's take on "floating island", in the original it also makes sense
It's also worth noting that he just burned all bridges with Athena over the issue of choosing peace over violence. If he goes into this ruthhless from the start, that would be like admitting that she was right. Add in his determination to not let Polites' light die, and it'll take a lot more than his second in command's logic to convince Odysseus to stop chasing after peace.
It's really easy to change the lyrics to the chorus here to be Funny and Memeable. How much longer till your luck runs out? How much longer can you fuck around? How much longer will we ALL find out? You rely on it, and people die on it. I always sing my Alternate Chorus
Also, during Odysseus's final... uh... verse? It's to the tune of the chorus. That whole, admonishing Eurylochus off to the side I imagine Odysseus puts his arm around Eurylochus's shoulder whole delivering this very stern lecture, and then at the "I need you to always be devout and comply with this" I imagine the camer pan down to see Odysseus holding a dagger to Eurlyochus's side, digging the point it like "If you don't agree, I will kill you and tell eberyone you fell overboard. Don't fucking test me on this." and then sheathing is on the "Thank you." There's just so much edge in his voice there that I like to imagine the implied threat made tangible.
I think the insight about Athena is brilliant. It is comments like that, a thing I never would have picked up on, that makes me love watching reaction videos.
honestly, I think killing the baby was the moral choice, because that baby WILL grow up to be a monster and WILL kill everyone Odysseus loves. if Odysseus doesn't kill the infant, then he his wife, son and all of his men, and his mother, ALL of their blood WILL be on his hands.
Please remember that Odysseus is the captain, and Eurylochus was dressing him down infront of the crew. They already have low morale, and Eury doing this could incite a mutiny
13:35 the Anemoi! :D They're the four winds gods, sons of Eos and Astraeus, the dawn and dusk. Boreas (North/winter wind), Notus(South/summer wind), Eurus (East/fall wind), and Zephryus (West/spring wind) are their names :3
To be fair, in the original Odyssey, I believe Athena never actually like let Odysseus fall out of favor, she just got more sneaky with how she helped. I believe the wind god, Hermes, and later things in Ithaca are specifically attributed to Athena, even after the falling out. That is a change Epic made that I really like.
Casper I think the other wind gods you are referring to are the anemi, who were wind gods that corresponded to the cardinal points from which their winds came, depending on the version their physical representation varies, but they all serve Eolo/Aeolus who frees or imprisons them according to his desire, that is why Odysseus says gods of the wind instead of god of the wind
Alright remember this for when you get to the last song in ACT 1 but in Gigi's animatic for the final song of the fifth saga odysseus has polities headband around his own head just hidden by his hair remember that for the future
25:05 What people forget is what Zeus said to Odysseus, when Odysseus wanted to avoid killing the baby, and said what he could do instead of killing the child, Zeus literally gave him no choice but an ultimatum. This is what they say in the song👇 Odysseus: I could raise him as my own! Zeus: He will burn your house and throne. Odysseus: Or send him far away from home! Zeus: he'll find you wherever you go. Odysseus: Make sure his past is never known! Zeus: THE GODS WILL MAKE HIM KNOW. Odysseus: I'd rather bleed for you, down on my knees for ya! Zeus: he's bringing you to your knees. Odysseus: I'm begging please!! Zeus: This is the will of the GODS! Odysseus: Please don't make me do this, don't make me do this!! Many miss this, because you can't understand Zeus clearly because they sing at the same time, but Zeus literally said this kid will be trouble for you, and if you don't listen to me we will make sure that you are in trouble if you spare him, so some people judge Odysseus too harshly on that part of the story, when he is just a man who had no choice in the moment..
Ive said it before and I'll say it again, every named character so far (minus Poseidon and Athena) that Odysseus interacts with has some WICKED CHEMISTRY-
Ody is 100% correct that if his second in command is always questioning everyone will die. Especially considering the "voice of reason" is so incredibly self centered; not in Ody's or the crew's favor but his own survival/comfort
Great video! Listen: the best hand heart is the most obvious one, and I never see anyone do it! Put your palms together and then bring all your fingertips down together. All of the hands are a part of the heart. It's perfect. I will die on this hill.
To be fair, Odysseus did lead from the heart when killing the infant. Zeus prophecy said the baby woukd grow to an avenger, and he would lose Penelope as a cause of that. He's not weighing his own life against that of a toddler, he's weighing his love and devotion to Penelope, to be with her for as long as possible against the life of the child that would threaten that. When Zeus denies him all other options, his heart decides that Penelope stands above all so the baby had to go. And Penelope is always his priority in the Epic universe. She's the star he's orbiting, everything he does it to get back to her as fast as he can and he is willing and able to sacrifice everything to reunite with her. Polites death made him carry on his optimism and love in rememberance, but it's his love for Penelope that makes him willing and able to move forward no matter what
I love the small hints of what Odysseus will become in the earlier songs: Just a Man: " Deep down i would trade the world to see my son and wife" Full Speed Ahead: " Then 600 men can make this whole place burn"
Another interesting note to think about. Since he was a child, Athena molded him and taught him to close off his heart and make the logical choices. Polities teaches Odysseus another way to solve problems. Use the Heart, not just the Mind. When Facing the Cyclopes, Odysseus was using his Mind to face it. (Tricking it to drink the drugged wine as he knew he and his men may not be able to defeat it.) THIS FAILS. He looses men for the first time after 10 years at war, His best friend. He took the Logical approach, after his friend showed him and PROOVED that solving problems with the heart works. So in this context, the song Last Goodbye, is Odysseus throwing his old ways of thinking and using his Heart over his Mind to solve problems now. But here's the thing.... he hasn't done this before. He goes 110% with his heart because he doesn't KNOW how to hold back when making decisions like this. He doesn't know how to have that balance. A way to think about it is like someone who has never had a temper in their childhood, now they are and adult, have a temper and have no clue what to do with it. they go overboard because they've never needed to develop the techniques to deal with their temper when they were younger. So now Odysseus needs to learn the techniques to solve problems with his Heart that he was never able to develop because of Athena
I don’t know if it’s just me but I feel like asking a gods help is not that dumb of an idea for Odysseus…?😶 He has been with a god (Athena) most of his life, he likely has some insight on how gods operate.?Although it did not end well with Athena, it did work out for years. So to me it would be reasonable to assume he could handle it. (Maybe?🤔😶)It’s only because the others do know about Athena that they don’t trust Odysseus can do it.
I also don’t really understand what ‘you rely on wit and people die on it’ means. Because there were no deaths in the war and it’s because of his wits that it did not immediately break into a fight with Polyphemus, and that Polyphemus fell asleep mid fight. If it weren’t for that, many more would have died…. Maybe I’m missing something?? But I truly feel like not many people is giving Odysseus enough credit for what he does and only sees him for his questionable choices.😞😞
I think its more about his pattern. He is very clever but he also relies on luck. Like the cyclopse drinking the lotus wine. What if it didn't? Then they'd all be killed. That is to rely on his wit and gamble. If you keep gambling, eventually you'll lose. I think that's what it means. And the crew is worried that his luck can't keep up with his crazy schemes.
Another thing to consider is that the gods were very active during the Trojan War. To the point they could pause the war to set up a little 1 v 1 action and completely change who was winning via hax. Like, interacting with gods is not new. And with a gaint storm that's left you trapped under an island, I think that's a clear indication that somebody wants to talk and you're not getting out of it.
@@AshtailFoxclaw I know what you mean but Odysseus only does high gambles that depends on luck when there's no better option - if he didn't at least try try with the wine they would all have died anyway and even then he tried to maximize the chances of him drinking by talking and reasoning with the Cyclops.
@@Tentativa4tadificil I do think he did as well as he could in the cyclopse situation AFTER shooting the sheep. He tried diplomacy but also made a lot of clever decisions/traps (wine+nobody+spear-eye) Hubris being his downfall in the end. But it's not about the cyclopse as a singular situation, but about his actions as a whole. When he does one good/clever thing and then immediately follows that with a very risky gamble, that does not make a great leader in my opinion. He should not have shot the sheep to begin with, arrogantly presume he can just take it without making sure - even if he didn't shoot the arrow, he should've told his men to leave them alone before making sure. He's a fascinating character, and I can respect his determination to get back home, cost what it may. But, I don't think I'll ever really be on his side.
Them having sexual tension is weird because they're both married to woman and Eurylochus is married to Odysseus's Sister. So Eurylochus is Odysseus's Brother In-Law.
You know, it's tough to be Eurylochus. You're stuck on this long trip with your boss/brother in law, the Literal King, for years on end, you're just trying to advocate for the guys cause that's part of your job, then stuff goes really, really sideways all of the sudden, and then there's extremely inclement weather, and then the king, who is also your boss and your brother in law gets yet another wild scheme in his head and it is becoming concerning, and when you try to express those concerns(admittedly, not in the best way) he does /not/ take it well. Yes, Eurylochus expressed his concerns poorly and publicly which can be really dangerous at sea, where the crew needs to be able to trust their leaders and work together effectively to survive. But he also had some valid concerns that needed to be expressed. Could he have done a better job of it? Yes. But he's stressed and he got a bit snippy. It's a tough life out here trying to survive Odysseus' sudden identity crisis.
These four Anemoi included the gods Zephyros, Notos, Boreas, and Euros. Each of these gods was associated with a direction as well as a season. These gods were very important to the ancient Greeks, who believed that the gods were the literal wind beneath their sails. Some Greek mythology for you
SEE YOU ON WEDNESDAY FOR "Keep Your Friends Close" + "Ruthlessness"!
To watch the unedited version of our R/As for Ocean Saga AND Circe Saga, join my Patreon here - www.patreon.com/CFReacts
Can't wait!
These two days are gonna be the longest days of my life. Im so excited!
Pulling the captain card
Hey, you both, I'd recommend the animatic for Luck runs out by Jen vampiresi. It was just unluckily released by about one week after your reaction. And the one by crashite is also good.
"are we on my channel 😐"
"yeah 😀"
"WHAT A FUCKING- 😡😡😡😡😡"
BYE I CANTTT LMAOO
the fact he checked before swearing and then the tone change just spooked me 😭😭😭
For me, how I interpret Luck Runs Out, is that Odysseus is putting on this show of confidence in this song. He doesn't want his crew discouraged and wants to look strong in front of his men. That's why (to me) when Odysseus pulls Eurylochus aside, his voice gets much darker. That's the real Odysseus. (Again this is just my interpretation)
I also think he's still mourning. Wild personality changes can be a sign of grief and trauma, and putting up a front is also a sign.
I like your brain man.
My sister and I thought the same thing. It was like Odysseus saying that "Hey I know that this may not be the best course of action but I have no other plans. But if you keep doubting me in front of the crew, this would not help"
I think so too. It's not a "Yo, if you have any concerns on the future, just don't voice them", it's a "Look, shit already went south, and you undermining my authority as both general and king in front of everyone, planting seeds of doubt and a possible rebellion, is the last thing any of us need right now. Do you have a better plan? No. Do I have any other plan? Also no. Until now, my plans only went wrong once, so PLEASE just shut up and comply"
I also think his voice got kinda darker bc he's ig kinda scolding eury? Like how jay mentioned in his recap of epic basically what odysseus was saying is like "WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM-?"
In Jorge's defense, if a wind god had floating islands, most people would think that it meant they were in the sky
It is also how Rick Riordan interprets it in the Heroes of Olympus series.
I definitely never questioned it lmao
I never questioned it either! Literally this reaction series that showed me any other way to think of it
Even if Open arms is naive I have to defend my boy Polities because the line between naivity and hopefullness is allmost invisible
nice one haha
@alvaroramos8499 how dare you
@@fromthegraysea hehehe, guess now i am the Monster that always draws near
@@alvaroramos8499 rawr rawr rawr
I'm gonna resist my joke cause I'll spoil a songs title XD
“What’s Jorge’s Twitter?!” Get me every time 😆
gotta let em know hahah
Jorge has mentioned before that the whole point of this song is to show how Eurylychus is influencing the men, that’s why when he sings you hear the backing vocals. Which is WHY Odysseus is pissed and takes him aside.
This was my first thought as well, along with showing Eurylychus's 'better safe than sorry' mentality. Because you get a sense that Eurylychus is the representation of the crew (in that the background vocals in Full Speed Ahead don't appear until Eurylychus does, and they back Eury instead of Ody), but this song pushes that further into showing that Eury is the intermediary between Ody and the crew, and that the crew largely trusts Eury, and Ody as a result, instead of trusting Ody directly.
This then leads into the crew siding with Eury in Mutiny and also into why I have no remorse for Ody choosing his life over those of his crew. Because in my mind, the rest of the crew had slain a cow alongside Eury, or they were getting ready to. Furthermore, the crew had already demonstrated their ability to side with either Eury or Ody, so even if they weren't actively engaging in the slaughter, they still implicitly agreed with Eury's actions when they didn't heed Ody's warnings and stop Eury.
I interpret Odysseus’s optimism in this song as a sign that he’s in the denial stage of grief.
that is a fantastic perspective
I just figure it's they've been stuck in this ROILING storm that is just almost certainly going to kill them all and he's just spotted a potential out you know
Thing about "sexual tension" between Odysseus and Eurylochus is even funnier/more absurd cause he is married to Odysseus' sister in mythology...
I appreciate this artists interpretation but it’s definitely not my favorite and it kind of “muddies the water” so to speak.
those things are not mutually exclusive though?
It’s also hilarious when you think about the.. habits of men in Ancient Greece. Think olive oil
Edit: this was not supposed to sound as disapproving as it probably does😬 it was very common for men to have some kind of sexual relationship with other men in their youth. Either as an apprentice or a soldier
@@sarahhandberg5185 To be fair, it was the norm in militaries up into the British Empire. It's just that after the Catholic Church came about, it was frowned upon, while in Greece bisexuality was the norm, and in Rome it was literal law. (i.e., a Centurion was not allowed to marry while serving in the military, could not "sully" a non-married Roman woman nor take another man's wife, and could not dishonor himself by hiring a prostitute, which left sacking a non-Roman village and taking the women, or getting themselves a slave boy, who usually became a beloved life partner... think "Jesus and the Centurion" in the Gospel for an example of this.)
"Buggery Laws" came about because it was SOOOO common on British ships, it started to become a problem once the men got back onshore and realized the rest of "civilized" society was... um, less than accepting, to put it mildly.
@@rhov-anion yeah I know. I didn’t know there were laws but I know it was the norm back then. I find the whole thing incredibly interesting, especially considering how far away from that we got
Casper: Ive read it, but never heard it, aolus? Eealus? Eolus?
Mortius: I think its Aeolus?
The commitment to no spoilers with this guy is insane
This one hits hard and I can start to see some real cracks showing in the boys. Something I noticed on re-listening is a tone shift not just in Odysseus, but Eurylochus.
His argument is solid... at the start. "Wait... stop, think. Don't just run at this god without a plan." Solid advice.
The crew is a bit shaken from everything. It has been rough. His friend and king has 'that look' again of adventure. But this changes when the crew chimes in.
This conversation shouldn't have been in public. You don't question your general, captain, or King in front of the men. You speak privately. You trust. A slight slip up? Probably, but as the men/crew start to agree with him Eurylochus starts to become bolder. He oversteps... Odysseus even calls him on this, "where is this attitude coming from?" And Eurylochus tries to cover it (maybe even believes it) saying he doesn't want to see more of the men die... in front of the men.
Odysseus at this moment takes a tactic shift and almost puts on the "king face" mask. He addresses Eurylochus. He answers his questions and accusations/concerns direcly but you can feel he isn't speaking to Eurylochus anymore. He is speaking to his large army who is very clearly overhearing this exchange. Odysseus is perfoming here, as King. Reminds them he is an amazing leader, cares for them, empathic to their plite, and is with them. And then humbles his second publicly and asks him to step into "the office". After separating Eurylochus he reminds him of his role and checks him quick and you can hear Eurylochus back down and seem almost shocked at himself and his own actions.
You mentioned Athena's influence with the piano? I don't know if it's true but I love it so much to let go of the idea of her own influence on Eurylochus.
Edit: removed potential spoiler. Not risking it.
“i am still sad and i still miss polites” is an accurate representation of what the epic experience is really like
8:20 So just wanted to add some stuff about Polities headband ^^
Wolfy animated Odysseus taking it and wrapping it around his arm, a lot of other animators have interpreted it as Odysseus taking Polities headband and wearing it as his own headband. For instance Gigi's Odysseus does not have a headband in the first two songs and from the Ocean saga onwards their Odysseus has a headband. Aka he took Polities's headband ^^
Also another fun fact, Wolfy did the headband around the arm cause they don't like drawing headbands, they said this on their Instagram on one of their drawings of Odysseus. ^^
that is WONDERFUL insight, thank you so much!
I can relate to Wolfy, headbands are cool in picture! But also... Tricky to draw😅
I am probably way too late for that, but I wanted to try it nevertheless:
Some other animators took a really nice turn with the headband as well. For example the other luck runs out animation from crashite also has the headband and when eury said "What do we do, when it taers us apart", he actually tries to take it from him. And later on... I think the animatic from Noir.Hyacinth for the ACT I closer has a really really nice turn to that one as well. There is also a few other callbacks as well as foreshadowing in that Closer, so I would always recommend watching it, if you are not listening to the song for the first time :)
Another thing that I think isn't widely mentioned is that Eurylochus is also his brother-in-law, as he married Odysseus' sister, Citimine.
Yeah, them saying “brother” isn’t just metaphorical
(spoilers for mutiny)
even funnier when you consider it’s very possible odysseus might end up killing eurylochus in mutiny! (it’s in the next saga, so we’ll find out soon enough lol)
citimine: odysseus, you’re back!!! where’s my husband?
odysseus: he got killed, sorry
citimine: that’s terrible, what happened????? :(
odysseus:
odysseus: uh
I mean... It _is_ greek mythology. A LOT of incest and polyamory happens in greek mythos
25:49 Also, Polites' blind trust in the lotus eaters is what led to the whole encounter and misunderstanding with Polyphemus. His philosophy of greet the world with Open Arms is nice in practice but it ultimately isn't one that is rewarded a lot in the Greek world of monsters and gods that they live in.
@tytanm-2380
to be fair, it gave them food, without it they would have starved.
and killing all of the lotus eaters would have done nothing but bring pain to the world.
spoilers
and Polites world view works out with circe.
Eurylochus: "You could piss off this God....."
Poseidon: Another one? Hes on a roll aint he...
Odysseus does mean "to hate" after all.
One thing i love about this song. is how when the backing vocals start to sing along with Eurylochus. We can take it as the other crew members already doubting Odysseus. In such a short time he's lost two important figures, who both add something to his moral compass. So hes feeling even more guilty for his actions. And so now odysseus is overcompensating for the loss of polites, by trying to cling to the ideals of his best friend. If he doesnt then his argument with Athena will have been for nothing. Everything's changed since Polites, so 😭😔😈
which is insane to me because he kept 600 people alive for 10 years of war but the minute ANY of them die they all start going rogue on him like... hello????
@@lilaculots right! I completely agree. but i think it brings to the forefront just how fickle people can be. also how important true friendships are. his crew weren't his friends, they followed him so long as he did everything right. even with all the things he did to try and save them. like yeah he messed up a bunch, but he also tried his best and almost succeeded in getting the majority of the men home. like i haven't read the odyssey, but from what i've seen online. it seems aside from Odysseus's hubris, his crew was a very large reason for their failure to make it home.
@@AtomicFoxMimi yeah, that's a really fair point. jorje, bless him, tries to present it equally with the men going "nothing's been the same since polites :/" yeah dingus that event was literally the first major loss your army experienced, do you have any idea how many armies would have killed for that kind of good fortune
@@lilaculots You have a super good point, but even if they have a fantastic track record, they're also tired of war and of being away from home. They may not have suffered big losses, but their fatigue is real. This isn't just a "everything was amazing right before the cyclops incident"-thing, even if they were happy to have won the war.
I love how this is just titled "I HATE HIM". Mortius is really making you suffer!😂
YUP
🥞
@@officialmortiusNOT THE PANCAKE EMOJI
@@officialmortiusMORTIUS YOU DID NOT JUST-
Eurylochus and Odysseus are actually brother in laws because he married Odysseus sister before they went off to war so the mentioning of "brother" has another meaning besides just the "you're my second in command, you've been my brother in arms during all of this"
Makes it even worst when he opens the bag since it means he lost faith and trust in his friend/brother in law and brother in arms.
Fun fact, that’s not a spoiler for epic, but just information from specifically homer in Greek mythology there is a main guardian, which is Aeolus, son of hippotes, and each of the wind directions is interpreted by different Guardian of the wind so there is one for the north wind, Boreas , the south wind, Notus, the east wind, Eurus, and the west wind Zephyrus.
what about that tornado guy from Throne of the Four Winds
@@CFEntertains are you talking about Al-akir from WoW?
Yes! The guardians of the winds are COLLECTIVELY called the Anemoi, the term Casper was theorizing about in here.
Haha “What’s Jorge’s Twitter?” Should be a meme or a shirt we can all purchase lol also “Divine sugar Mumma!.”
I'm here to bring your attention to the description which just says "I'm still sad and I still miss polites" Same Casper, same. See y'all at the premiere :D
🥲🥲🥲
Something I noticed that I didn't see you guys mention, is that whenever Eurylochus (how the F do you spell his name?!) DOESN'T have a leading/solo part in the songs, but the crew is singing, Eurylochus leads the back-up vocals. You hear it especially in the Cyclopse Saga.
you spelt Eurylochus right im pretty sure
Fun fact! Athena would often take the form of people that Odysseus or Telemachus knew as people they could trust as a way to continue their path towards home/finding eachother! I’m not sure if that’s why the piano is there with Erylochus but it could make sense!
From my own memory I know she turned into Hector and some of the suitors once or twice so it’s plausible that she is still attempting to make him see reason through Eurylochus here!
Also in Greek Myth there were four wind gods of the cardinal directions, none of whom are Aolous! They were known as the Anemoi. Aeolus is in fact the Keeper of the Anemoi however
Also, there are multiple Greek gods of the wind and they're called the Anemoi but the 4 main ones- the North Wind (Boreas), South Wind (Notus), East Wind (Eurus), and West Wind (Zephryus) while Aeolus is the Keeper of the Four Winds, which is why they're the one solely able to provide Odysseus with the bag of winds.
Syncronized "NO" with odysseus after the "cyclops ... is mine" comment
:DDDD
I am confuseeeed, isn’t this luck runs out? That is from ruthless right?
@@JBU27 there’s clips that came out before the actual reaction
@@JBU27 The "Trailer" was the short announcing that Ruthlessness is on Patreon - You can watch the short here: th-cam.com/users/shortsAx4S7JScCD4
Funny cause my mum asked me to explain de Odyssey to her and she had the exact same "no" when I got to the part Poseidon tells Odysseus the cyclops was his son.
'Are we on my channel?' 😂
AND WE WEREEEEE
Casper should've used Danish to sink him 🤣
both Odysseus and Eurylochus screw up in this interaction, one should have pulled the other aside first to talk in private and the other should be more open to hearing opposition.
Are we on my channal?
....Yeah.
Yeah what a fucking .... holy dude....
THE FACT THAT THD TITLE IS “I HATE HIM” IS MEANING HES SO DONE WITH MORTIS MAKING HIM HAVE A MENTAL BREAKDOWN OR WERE TAKING ABOUT POSEIDON. EITHER WAY IM EXCITED 😂😂
Both is good.
WHY ARE YOU SCREAMMING !?
THATS A GOOD QUESTION 😃
More like pissed off at Odysseus. 🤣
Odysseus, in my opinion, led with only his brain until Athena left. Once she left, he started feeling more emotion, and bc of that he's leading with his heart more in this saga. He may not realize it, but he seems that way. I believe he's trying to keep Polites alive by leading with his heart
Yeah Lampyrcy isn't usually the animator you want to go with for the first watch because they really have their own version of what's going on in Epic, but are great for a second or third animation to watch.
Unfortunately when it comes to having options for some songs you just run out of luck (bdun tss) and the one by them is the only good one available.
Another thing that can be a little misleading about this one is that because it's focused on shipping Odysseus and Eurylochus, it doesn't show that the crew comes in and is starting to agree with questioning Odysseus, which is part of why he pulls Eurylochus aside. It is not out of pocket when you realize he has 600 warrior men that are at risk of deciding they don't trust their leader anymore.
The problem is that almost no one has tried to animate this song, os you've kinda gotta take what you can get
@@legitimatemedicine Yep, that's why I mentioned that this one is the only good one available.
The only other full length animatic uses an unfinished version of the song, and the rest of the animatics I've found have been OC ones using the song rather than an animatic for the song itself.
Absolutely agreed. This animatic is so yaoi-brained, (let's not forget that these men are not only both married, but also Brothers-in-Law,) that it loses the literal plot almost completely.
@Macabrellian I'll never fault shipping or looking at people in story through a queer lense, but yeah. It'd be like the only videos on Elden Ring lore being focused on shipping the player with Ranni lol.
@@legitimatemedicine Oh yeah especially anything based on Ancient Greece. I feel like finding subtext or just straight up text there is just par for the course, and with some things could probably be the main focus with absolutely no issue (anything with Achilles and Patroclus for example). And it's fun to have that available as an option.
But yeah it causes some focus away from what the canon of the story is so far and definitely takes more creative liberties, which can be confusing for someone who hasn't gotten familiar with the songs yet and is used to the animatics being based off of Jorge's notes rather than an independent vision.
It’s really great that you guys are telling other people about this series because recently, after seeing your guys’ first videos, my TH-cam fyp has been exploding with reactions that have been made in the last month of people finding out about Epic. This is finally the beginning of it’s inevitable fame.
all thanks to Mortius !!!
@@CFEntertains Yep! I think you guys should react to the second act at the same time again.
NO SPOILERS, but LRO imho is one of the most significant songs emotional development-wise, it's a gift that keeps on giving. the 600 men line drastically changes the perception, because now Odysseus is *experienced* , not extremely overconfident. and that fact doesn't just affect himself, but also the team. for 10 years in Troy they were basically untouchable as long as they followed their infallible leader. and now they have to reconcile the fact that Odysseus is *not* infallible. and Eurylochus has to manage them, as well as being Odysseus' last remaining confidant and having front row seat to his emotional spiral. AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT, none of these men know how to deal with grief properly, because they didn't have to fear for their closest people in Troy. Poletes had the most EQ in the team, if not the musical, and he's dead.
kinda explains the second act, doesn't it.
“Eurylochus, the second in command, tells Odysseus, ‘hey, I’m starting to have some doubts about you. And instead of telling you in private, I’m gonna say it right here, in front of everyone.’ And so Odysseus is like, ‘thank you for doing that, now let me talk to you in private. WhAt ThE Hell IS WrOnG WiTH yOU?’” -Epic The Musical Sagas 1-4 recap
Okay I'm further in and I would like to understand what CF has been seeing that makes him feel that Odysseus has been becoming closer to a monster until this point, because all the textual evidence I've seen seems to show the opposite. He seems to have been pulling AWAY from violence after killing the infant. That was even part of the reason Athena dumped him.
I think CF has somehow really mischaracterized Odysseus up to this point. And even Mortius has missed some stuff considering saying that he didn't have to deal with consequences from killing the infant but he absolutely has.
Warning for a really long comment ahead. But I feel the need to really break some stuff down.
From the start Odysseus had reservations about violence outside of the actions taken to win the war.
He didn't want to kill the infant. He was told directly by Zeus "Kill the infant, or your kingom will be destroyed and everyone you love will die. Penelope in particular definitely will die."
In greek mythology, prophecies will come true. He may be a monster for killing an innocent child, but how much more of one would he have been for the many innocent Ithacan infants that would die.
"He will burn your house and throne" would mean any relative of his would be killed in the slaughter, probably anyone working for him as well. Some of those definitely will also be infants. If you want to take it to the worst interpretation throne could mean all of Ithaca would be destroyed, though it could just mean that his bloodline and their rulership would be destroyed. Which would still lead to widespread violence in the ensuing power vacuum.
Even after being told that he was trying to find another way. He did NOT want to do it. He went through with killing when Zeus made it clear there was no other option.
"The blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you can choose is whose."
Now following that in full speed ahead, he ONCE AGAIN chooses the non violent option as his default, only this time he actually can.
When Eurylochus says "600 reasons to take what we can" instead of "taking" from other people Odysseus defaults to findong somewhere they can hunt for food instead.
Then later Eurylochus directly says he wants them to RAID the island. Odysseus directly shuts that down.
"We should try and find a way no one ends up dead."
Polites definitely has a more trusting outlook, but Odysseus has been very far from "Descending into a monster."
He tries negotiating with the cyclops, and though he does poison the wine at that point he had no guarantee the negotiations would work. So a morally dubious action taken against someone who just mentioned wanting to eat them.
They didn't know the sheep were owned, let alone considered beloved friends to the cyclops, so up until then their transgression had been an honest mistake.
At multiple points he's mentioned how much of a toll killing takes on him.
During Just A Man there's this line. "Will these actions haunt my days, every man I've slain?
Is the price I pay endless pain?"
During the big breakup with his divine sugar momma, he mentions how much of a toll the death is taking on him. "Unlike you, every time someone dies I'm left to deal with the strain".
It's been taking a toll on him even before losing Polites and his men. He was not okay with killing the infant. It has traumatized him, and losing his men even more so. He doesn't want to have to kill, and has been doing what he can to avoid it especially since killing the infant.
Now that he's lost Polites he's leaning even more into Polites' view. That isn't surprising considering he has, once again, been very far from "descending into a monster".
Now, my conclusion from this is partially speculation but is informed by an understanding of the way people respond to trauma.
I think Odysseus is traumatized both by his own action at Troy, and his inaction after Polites' death. He desperately wants to avoid more death, whether that's his men getting killed or it's having to take another life. He's haunted by his actions, so what is he doing here? Embracing Polites' world view as an attempt to cling to the comfort his friend brought him.
Now, him full on embracing the open arms lead from the heart thing would be out of pocket if he hadn't just lost so much. He's still responding from trauma right now though.
He doesn't have Polites anymore, but he does have his philosophy and if he doesn't embrace that now, then he would be letting Polites down.
Also if he doesn't double down on mercy and everything Athena was against, then what was the point of losing Athena?
Again that bit is just speculation on my part but I do think it lines up.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts! I see where you're coming from regarding Odysseus's reluctance towards violence and his attempts to choose non-violent options.
My perspective is more about the creeping sense of corruption Odysseus feels. It's not that he's actively choosing to be a monster, but rather that the horrific things he's had to do and endure are gradually taking a toll on him. The animatics, especially during the cyclops saga, visually emphasize this descent into a darker place.
I agree that he's been trying to avoid violence and that he’s haunted by his past actions. However, the ongoing trauma and the heavy burden of his decisions seem to push him closer to that monstrous edge, even if he's fighting against it.
I appreciate your insights and think it's great that we can explore these complex layers of his character together! :)
@@CFEntertains That makes a lot of sense, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain where you're coming from.
I interpreted what you were saying as meaning that Odysseus himself had been giving into and actively embracing the darkness already rather than it just begining to accumulate and take a toll on him. Him being the source of dark rather than being in a dark place.
I think I definitely agree with that, with the darkness of everything weighing on him. Polites even points it out at multiple times in Open Arms.
I think with that in mind the best way to describe what he's doing here fits in with what you two discussed about how this man essentially has no chill and only goes 100% when maybe 60% would have been a better option. He has decided to lean into Polites' world view, and is leaning so hard into it that it is jarring for many people watching.
I look forward to seeing your future reactions and to seeing what you think about the way his psyche develops over this in response to everything.
Y'all are probably my favorite Epic reactors and I love how you break everything down. Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me.
@@feistsorcerer2251 absolutely love that we can have discussions like this - and thank you so much for your kind words, im happy you're enjoying the content!
@@CFEntertainshey, i had a question. HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE YOU GONNA MAKE SUFFER??
*whispers Jennifer😅
@@jignesharya2421 I am not kidding when I tell you that the death of Polites has hit me harder than any other character death. Ever. Others will now experience the same pain and I will not stop showing other people until I find someone who will feel it as deeply as I did - basically im the monster rawr rawr
6:50 Casper looking for Athena is like looking for his enemy, its so funny
As a trickster hero, Oddyseus often can't explain his plans to his crew until after they're started. He's probably worried about a crewmate going rogue midway through one of his deceptions. If a crewmate had broken rank and run in the cyclopse cave, the "Nobody" gambit would have failed and they all would have died. Obviously he's ignoring sound advice here, but the way Oddyseus solves problems requires a level of unquestioning obedience, since the plan will make sense once all the strings come together. A disobediant sailor could ruin his plans at a critical moment
It's a shame that there aren't more animatics of this song, I wonder why that is?
I was told in the comments of a previous video that this is one of the lesser popular songs from EPIC - that could be why it's not getting as much attention as the others when it comes to animatics
Casper: *talks why the piano may be in this song*
My mind: "the answer is 🦅"
With regard to the “floating Islands” floating in the sky in Jorge’s version I just look at it as “This is an anime and video game inspired take on The Odyssey. So if it has some weird bits that’s just part of the charm of this adaptation.”
Eurylycus is like “I recognized the counsel has made a decision but given it’s a stupid ass decision I’ve decided to ignore it”
the way Casper had to check that they were on his channel. And then proceeding to cuss Odysseus out😭
"Eurylochus's whole thing is the background man." HE'S ODYSSEUS'S SECOND IN COMMAND. 😂
I've always interpreted what he said to Eurylocus was about his public behavior, not telling him to never speak up. He said "planting seeds of doubt" - which implies his words reaching other ears and making them question Odysseus since even his second in command is disagreeing publically. He needs to be compliant and devout.
I imagined Odysseus was saying that when he makes an order to his men, he needs all of them to comply in the moment. Any hesitation could result in severe consequences if it happened in critical moments. Like if his men hesitated to follow his orders when they were fighting the Cyclops.
The discord Eurylocus caused among the crew lingers.
I had a job at a summer camp once where there seemed to be no sense of privacy and respect from my bosses. They discussed my private matters and criticized me in front of my coworkers and campers. Even my immediate supervisor was criticized in front of me and my fellow coworkers. It made my job a lot harder because campers started to undermine and disobey me, sometimes resulting in more criticism aimed at me, and it made it hard to keep them in order and safe. I ended up having a public meltdown when one of my coworkers started yelling at me for not immediately acting when a fight broke out, and I was still trying to process the situation. It was the first job I ever quit because I felt so disrespected and unsupported being
There is also the point that second in commands are not always advisors though they can function as one if they are speaking from their area of expertise (military officer). They make sure orders from the captain are carried out and act as a messenger between captain and crew. Odysseus allows him to share his input because he trusts him and values him and their relationship, and those discussions should be private.
Eurylocus is not a faultless voice of reason. He's overly cautious and is a shoot first, ask questions later type - which is not always the right approach. It does suck that Polites isn't there as a counterbalance, and Odysseus overly embraced Polites philosophy probably as a way to remember or honor him.
Odysseus, in the beginning, was the middle of Polites and Eurylocus's extremes, but the balance has been shifted.
Odysseus having managed to get through the war without losing any men proved his competence as a military commander during war. His mistakes after the war prove he's not as good of a ship fleet's captain.
Yes! And war is a known quantity, with rules of engagement; he's been trained for it his whole life, by a literal goddess no less. The moment he faced the unknown things started going south.
@@draeonic Captains should know how to adapt and improvise tbh.
So another thing about that little speech at the end: the storm from song 1 is still going on. Odysseus sees the home of the wind god, and goes "the god of wind seems to be the best way to get rid of the storm blocking our path." Then Eurylochus is just like "nooo bad idea" with no alternative ideas of his own, and no real reason other than "your luck is bad, and people die when you make plans". I think Ody is perfectly justified in telling Eurylochus to shut up there.
And even if he weren't justified, his fatal flaw is pride. Eurylochus questioned his judgement in front of EVERYONE. Not only that, but in doing so, started planting "seeds of doubt" in the crew about whether Ody is even fit to lead. His pride is not gonna like that.
I'll pray for yeah when you react to the underworld saga.
oh no
Casper you better watch gigis version of monster. There is some great symbolism you will love
10:13 something I just noticed is this is the only time Odysseus uses "friend" to refer to Eurylochos or any of the crew for that matter, and the only other person who used that term was Polites ("You can relax, my friend") :(
Idk if you just meant it was the only time _up to this point_ or what, but this is definitely _not_ the only time Odysseus uses "friend" to refer to any of the crew. I can think of at least one more time off the top of my head: He refers to them all collectively as "friends" (and then "comrades") in The Underworld.
16:13 My affectionate description for Epic: The Musical and the Odyssey in general is Odysseus’ 10-year Mental Breakdown for this very reason.
I can't wait to see you react to my two favorite songs "keep your friends close" and "wouldn't you like"
So just as a slight challenge to this being a radical change to Odysseus keep in mind it was Odysseus who said in full speed ahead that they should find a way that no one winds up dead. He was already doubting resorting to violence and looking for a different way. The death of his friend just rammed that home in he wants to honor his friend.
The Danger Motif that comes out when odysseus speaks to eurylochus in private just shows how screwed he would be if he doubts odysseus again
At this point. I'll be making Luck Runs Out animatic
Like... If I have time, I might make one
I think part of Odysseus' cavilier attitude when going up to speak to Aeolus is partially a show for his men. He has to maintain an appearance of strength for their sake, both as their king & after suffering their first loss of men in all of the 10+ years they've been away from home. That's why he gets upset with Eurylochus & pulls him aside. They (the crew) can't be anything but a united front with their captain for survival. Eurylochus questioning Odysseus like that only weakens that front from Odysseus' POV
I think part of it too is based in Odysseus' relationship with Athena. He had her in his life from a pretty young age, whereas most greeks NEVER interacted with the gods. The gods were to be respected & feared.
But Athena was a helpful & benevolent (if strict & demanding) force in his life. And then there was Zeus, who warned him about the baby potentially destroying him later in his life. Yeah, Zeus asked him to do something horrible, but it ultimately helped Odysseus. With those interactions in mind, I dont think it's that surprising for Odysseus to go up to Aeolus and ask "hey, can you help us out?" His direct interactions with the gods have been pretty beneficial up to then.
U have to remember odysseus ✨ is just a man ✨
Not sure if anyone has already said this, but in the original text, Aeolus is the keeper of the winds, esensially the ruler of the four wind gods collectively known as the Anemoi. His bag contained the north, east and south winds, but the "gentle" west wind was sent forth to carry Odysseus home. In fact they almost made it, they could see the island when the crew opened the bag, beliving it was treasure, and they were carried all the way back to Aeolus. He, rightly, thought they were idiots and refused to help them again. They sail on to the land of the giants and it is the giants that kill most of Odysseus' men. Poseidon doesnt directly kill them, like in Ruthlessness (fantastic song btw), but he is making the storms that forces Odysseus to go on this crazy route. I dont think the original Odyssey is intended to imply that Odysseus is in the wrong when his men are killed, infact its mostly the crew's fault everything goes wrong, but i love the creative liberty that Jay has taken with this to explore the theme of guilt and ruthlessness. EPIC!!
13:24 Regarding the winds. The god Aeolus is the ruler of the winds, The Anemoi. There are 4 gods representing the cardinal directions Boreas (the north wind), Notus (the south wind), Zephyrus or Zephyr (the west wind), Eurus (the east wind). And 4 more representing the in-betweens: Kaikias (the northeast wind), Apeliotes (the southeast wind), Skeiron (the northwest wind), Lips (the southwest wind). The Anemoi are depicted as gusts of wind or winged men and sometimes depicted as horses in Aeolus's stable
I love mortius' take that Odysseus makes correct decisions but goes 30% too far, but i have to add that it just makes him so goddamned human. It's so good and Jorge is amazing for how he does his characters!
I can see the sense in what Casper is saying because Athena definitely never let go of Odysseus and in some interpretations then goes on to mentor Telemachus (or another child he has with Circe (but that’s not cannon).
That stressed "Nonononono" at the end 😂
The Anemoi are the four winds of the cardinal directions. There isn't really a "wind god" in Greek mythology, only a keeper/lord of the winds (Aeolus) and the personification of the winds from the four cardinal directions (Anemoi). Jorge took some liberty here and made Aeolus the wind god.
About his "turning"
I have a theory.
Polites's death changed Odysseus. Before he died, Odysseus killed a child, tried to attack the lotus eaters, and attacked Polyphemus. After Polites died, Odysseus had a shift in his character. He spares the cyclops after his death and tries to change his mindset to one more open because that may keep people from dying. Theres more evidence to support this but that goes into spoiler territory
the discord watch party group thing has typically been good for me and my friends(if you see this and havent tried it yet)
Love this collab so much!
Happy to hear!
I found you guys after watching Jennifer Glatzhofer's reactions. I'm a newish fan of Epic and loving all these different perspectives and insights!
Nah this is also the era where a mutiny could get everybody killed. Odysseus is tryna avoid that. He's being a sensible captain. I feel like if Eurylochus had voiced his concerns in private he might've been more receptive.
A bit of mythology clarification, if you don't mind. Aelous is actually the immortal lord of winds, not the actual god. There are at least four gods of wind, each one for each direction on a compass, North, South, etc. It should also be mentioned that Aelous has twelve sons and twelve daughters who are married to each other living in his palace. I don't know if this TMI, but a bit of a fun fact.
I also love that as they were talking about the sexual tension displayed in the animatic, Casper just goes "It's Greek." Everyone who ships Patroclus and Achilles totally agrees with you!
I had some time to mull over what you guys said about the argument between our lads. Yeah, it is very weird that it would be brought up in this manner until I realized something. Eurylochus is acting in his role as Voice of the Men. He brings up these topics openly because the crew were having doubts and worries of their own so he, as a figure Oddy respects, can bring them up to him publically and as he clearly usually does he is given the chance to explain things and lay their worries to rest. Which he kinda does but it's pretty clear no one was really satisfied by what he said this time. Eurylochus seems rather taken off guard and aback by what goes on next which to me says this is not the norm. Oddy bills himself as a man of his people, keeping them all safe as one of them even if he is so far above them as partly divine king. So this is a fracture in their relationship and everyone can feel it.
Love the content man
Thanks!
2nd in commands role is not to undermine a comander or captain but rather to offer sugestions and information to the captain. But once they have made a decision it is the 1st mates job to carry out those orders.
If you want a good example of this explored, Commander Data and Worf in Star Trek TNG have this kind of discussion.
"I need you to always be devout..."
"And comply with this, or we'll all die in th-"
"YIPPEE!!"
I love how you were talking about how odysseus had changed too drastically right before he pulled him aside and let the mask slip to show the scary king lurking beneath 😂😂❤❤
TBF a floating island even in the water would be more susceptible to moving via winds, so while I do definitely prefer Jorge's take on "floating island", in the original it also makes sense
When he tries to hide the spoilers mortius has a tell im glad casper did not pick on it
It's also worth noting that he just burned all bridges with Athena over the issue of choosing peace over violence. If he goes into this ruthhless from the start, that would be like admitting that she was right. Add in his determination to not let Polites' light die, and it'll take a lot more than his second in command's logic to convince Odysseus to stop chasing after peace.
It's really easy to change the lyrics to the chorus here to be Funny and Memeable.
How much longer till your luck runs out?
How much longer can you fuck around?
How much longer will we ALL find out?
You rely on it, and people die on it.
I always sing my Alternate Chorus
Also, during Odysseus's final... uh... verse? It's to the tune of the chorus. That whole, admonishing Eurylochus off to the side
I imagine Odysseus puts his arm around Eurylochus's shoulder whole delivering this very stern lecture, and then at the "I need you to always be devout and comply with this" I imagine the camer pan down to see Odysseus holding a dagger to Eurlyochus's side, digging the point it like "If you don't agree, I will kill you and tell eberyone you fell overboard. Don't fucking test me on this." and then sheathing is on the "Thank you." There's just so much edge in his voice there that I like to imagine the implied threat made tangible.
I think the insight about Athena is brilliant. It is comments like that, a thing I never would have picked up on, that makes me love watching reaction videos.
honestly, I think killing the baby was the moral choice, because that baby WILL grow up to be a monster and WILL kill everyone Odysseus loves.
if Odysseus doesn't kill the infant, then he his wife, son and all of his men, and his mother, ALL of their blood WILL be on his hands.
Please remember that Odysseus is the captain, and Eurylochus was dressing him down infront of the crew.
They already have low morale, and Eury doing this could incite a mutiny
I feel like he really took on “greet the world with open arms” to heart, especially after Polites death.
13:35 the Anemoi! :D They're the four winds gods, sons of Eos and Astraeus, the dawn and dusk. Boreas (North/winter wind), Notus(South/summer wind), Eurus (East/fall wind), and Zephryus (West/spring wind) are their names :3
To be fair, in the original Odyssey, I believe Athena never actually like let Odysseus fall out of favor, she just got more sneaky with how she helped. I believe the wind god, Hermes, and later things in Ithaca are specifically attributed to Athena, even after the falling out.
That is a change Epic made that I really like.
Casper I think the other wind gods you are referring to are the anemi, who were wind gods that corresponded to the cardinal points from which their winds came, depending on the version their physical representation varies, but they all serve Eolo/Aeolus who frees or imprisons them according to his desire, that is why Odysseus says gods of the wind instead of god of the wind
ohhhh! And also technically there are also the gods of the north, east, south and west winds
Alright remember this for when you get to the last song in ACT 1 but in Gigi's animatic for the final song of the fifth saga odysseus has polities headband around his own head just hidden by his hair remember that for the future
25:05 What people forget is what Zeus said to Odysseus, when Odysseus wanted to avoid killing the baby, and said what he could do instead of killing the child, Zeus literally gave him no choice but an ultimatum.
This is what they say in the song👇
Odysseus: I could raise him as my own!
Zeus: He will burn your house and throne.
Odysseus: Or send him far away from home!
Zeus: he'll find you wherever you go.
Odysseus: Make sure his past is never known!
Zeus: THE GODS WILL MAKE HIM KNOW.
Odysseus: I'd rather bleed for you, down on my knees for ya!
Zeus: he's bringing you to your knees.
Odysseus: I'm begging please!!
Zeus: This is the will of the GODS!
Odysseus: Please don't make me do this, don't make me do this!!
Many miss this, because you can't understand Zeus clearly because they sing at the same time, but Zeus literally said this kid will be trouble for you, and if you don't listen to me we will make sure that you are in trouble if you spare him, so some people judge Odysseus too harshly on that part of the story, when he is just a man who had no choice in the moment..
Ive said it before and I'll say it again, every named character so far (minus Poseidon and Athena) that Odysseus interacts with has some WICKED CHEMISTRY-
Ody is 100% correct that if his second in command is always questioning everyone will die. Especially considering the "voice of reason" is so incredibly self centered; not in Ody's or the crew's favor but his own survival/comfort
Great video! Listen: the best hand heart is the most obvious one, and I never see anyone do it! Put your palms together and then bring all your fingertips down together. All of the hands are a part of the heart. It's perfect. I will die on this hill.
To be fair, Odysseus did lead from the heart when killing the infant. Zeus prophecy said the baby woukd grow to an avenger, and he would lose Penelope as a cause of that. He's not weighing his own life against that of a toddler, he's weighing his love and devotion to Penelope, to be with her for as long as possible against the life of the child that would threaten that. When Zeus denies him all other options, his heart decides that Penelope stands above all so the baby had to go. And Penelope is always his priority in the Epic universe. She's the star he's orbiting, everything he does it to get back to her as fast as he can and he is willing and able to sacrifice everything to reunite with her. Polites death made him carry on his optimism and love in rememberance, but it's his love for Penelope that makes him willing and able to move forward no matter what
I love the small hints of what Odysseus will become in the earlier songs:
Just a Man: " Deep down i would trade the world to see my son and wife"
Full Speed Ahead: " Then 600 men can make this whole place burn"
Another interesting note to think about. Since he was a child, Athena molded him and taught him to close off his heart and make the logical choices. Polities teaches Odysseus another way to solve problems. Use the Heart, not just the Mind. When Facing the Cyclopes, Odysseus was using his Mind to face it. (Tricking it to drink the drugged wine as he knew he and his men may not be able to defeat it.) THIS FAILS. He looses men for the first time after 10 years at war, His best friend. He took the Logical approach, after his friend showed him and PROOVED that solving problems with the heart works. So in this context, the song Last Goodbye, is Odysseus throwing his old ways of thinking and using his Heart over his Mind to solve problems now. But here's the thing.... he hasn't done this before. He goes 110% with his heart because he doesn't KNOW how to hold back when making decisions like this. He doesn't know how to have that balance. A way to think about it is like someone who has never had a temper in their childhood, now they are and adult, have a temper and have no clue what to do with it. they go overboard because they've never needed to develop the techniques to deal with their temper when they were younger. So now Odysseus needs to learn the techniques to solve problems with his Heart that he was never able to develop because of Athena
I was aware of the previous record but it's good to get a reminder
I don’t know if it’s just me but I feel like asking a gods help is not that dumb of an idea for Odysseus…?😶
He has been with a god (Athena) most of his life, he likely has some insight on how gods operate.?Although it did not end well with Athena, it did work out for years. So to me it would be reasonable to assume he could handle it. (Maybe?🤔😶)It’s only because the others do know about Athena that they don’t trust Odysseus can do it.
I also don’t really understand what ‘you rely on wit and people die on it’ means. Because there were no deaths in the war and it’s because of his wits that it did not immediately break into a fight with Polyphemus, and that Polyphemus fell asleep mid fight. If it weren’t for that, many more would have died….
Maybe I’m missing something?? But I truly feel like not many people is giving Odysseus enough credit for what he does and only sees him for his questionable choices.😞😞
I think its more about his pattern. He is very clever but he also relies on luck. Like the cyclopse drinking the lotus wine. What if it didn't? Then they'd all be killed. That is to rely on his wit and gamble. If you keep gambling, eventually you'll lose. I think that's what it means. And the crew is worried that his luck can't keep up with his crazy schemes.
Another thing to consider is that the gods were very active during the Trojan War. To the point they could pause the war to set up a little 1 v 1 action and completely change who was winning via hax. Like, interacting with gods is not new. And with a gaint storm that's left you trapped under an island, I think that's a clear indication that somebody wants to talk and you're not getting out of it.
@@AshtailFoxclaw I know what you mean but Odysseus only does high gambles that depends on luck when there's no better option - if he didn't at least try try with the wine they would all have died anyway and even then he tried to maximize the chances of him drinking by talking and reasoning with the Cyclops.
@@Tentativa4tadificil I do think he did as well as he could in the cyclopse situation AFTER shooting the sheep. He tried diplomacy but also made a lot of clever decisions/traps (wine+nobody+spear-eye) Hubris being his downfall in the end. But it's not about the cyclopse as a singular situation, but about his actions as a whole. When he does one good/clever thing and then immediately follows that with a very risky gamble, that does not make a great leader in my opinion. He should not have shot the sheep to begin with, arrogantly presume he can just take it without making sure - even if he didn't shoot the arrow, he should've told his men to leave them alone before making sure.
He's a fascinating character, and I can respect his determination to get back home, cost what it may. But, I don't think I'll ever really be on his side.
Them having sexual tension is weird because they're both married to woman and Eurylochus is married to Odysseus's Sister. So Eurylochus is Odysseus's Brother In-Law.
You know, it's tough to be Eurylochus.
You're stuck on this long trip with your boss/brother in law, the Literal King, for years on end, you're just trying to advocate for the guys cause that's part of your job, then stuff goes really, really sideways all of the sudden, and then there's extremely inclement weather, and then the king, who is also your boss and your brother in law gets yet another wild scheme in his head and it is becoming concerning, and when you try to express those concerns(admittedly, not in the best way) he does /not/ take it well.
Yes, Eurylochus expressed his concerns poorly and publicly which can be really dangerous at sea, where the crew needs to be able to trust their leaders and work together effectively to survive. But he also had some valid concerns that needed to be expressed. Could he have done a better job of it? Yes. But he's stressed and he got a bit snippy.
It's a tough life out here trying to survive Odysseus' sudden identity crisis.
These four Anemoi included the gods Zephyros, Notos, Boreas, and Euros. Each of these gods was associated with a direction as well as a season. These gods were very important to the ancient Greeks, who believed that the gods were the literal wind beneath their sails.
Some Greek mythology for you
Dont forget when addressing polities extreame optimism, he almost ate a lotus, well implied almost ate it
good point tbf
@@CFEntertains
if he did eat it he would have live way longer.
and polities did stop odysseus from killing them all.
Any idea of what Eurylochus meant, when he was singing "how much longer 'till the snake breaks free"?
Ohhh if you hate him now... just wait for the Thunder Saga.