@@Mojojojoei I officially died 😂💀 Swimming with Polites now. Finally reunited with my sunshine boy, so everythings fine again. He welcomed me with open arms 😭😭💙
Something I have not seen elaborated is how that truly was a deliberate sacrifice, yes, but it was so because Scylla ACCEPTED it. She targeted the torches and did not try to go after more sailors, effectively granting them passage at a cost. THAT is why she sings all those "we" and "deep down we are the same" to Odysseus. She saw his intent and recognized it. And that is why Odysseus harmonizes in the end, because he agrees. Say "I am a monster" without saying "I am a monster".
I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS GOOFBALL WAS THE ONE WHO STARTED THAT!! Someone drew Scylla with six Eury heads and I was so confused. ITS WET HADES ALL OVER AGAIN
Since we know that the next song is "Thunderbringer", I don't think this will spoil anything, but Jay revealed after the livestream that the first four lines of the chorus in "No Longer You" are "Siren song, Scylla throat, mutiny, lightning bolt."
That last bit is actually pretty tragic tbh, because even though ALL this betrayal and drama just happened, the moment their lives are on the line everyone slips back into the way it’s always been. Ody tries to save them, and they obey their captain.
He absolutely does not try to save them. As much as I generally defend both Odysseus and Eurylochus in this saga, the crew aren't even on Odysseus's radar as people he cares about.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 yes he did because it's either 6 visible men or Scylla destroys the ship and eats six or more from the fallen bodies, their other choices are Charybdis and Poseidon who would swallow/drown the whole ship
@@aadityayanamandra8846 well he gets them rowing out of there. “Grab an oar with all the strength your arms allow”. He starts giving out commands and they follow them. Eury even calls him captain again right after he kills the cow. I guess you could argue that Ody was just trying to save himself, but he did try to get all of them out of there as fast as possible.
@@Fernsketch yeah, he was just trying to save himself? He's aware that he can't get home on his own. Once again, this isn't him doing anything for the crew, it's him needing them for his agenda.
So I will say, Eurylochus was meant to die in Scylla from what I've gathered via listening and looking at comments. However, he ends up giving his torch to another crewmember before Scylla can get him as he tries likely saving the others. He inevitably figures out "those with torches are marked for death." And honestly... Can't blame either side here for their actions. Ody just wants to see his wife and kid. If it means sacrificing 6 men then so be it. Small price to pay to ensure he gets home. And I doubt he'd do that more then necessary under normal circumstances. But at the same time, he willingly and premedatatively sacrificed 6 people to Scylla. So Eurylochus' loss of hope and mutiny and such is valid. From his side, the captain is very willing to kill crew to get home. Does it make his choices good? No. Eury messed up big time. But it is very justifiable.
Exactly! People taking sides saying one is completly wrong or right is a mistake. We can say, they are both humans, not everything is black and white and sometimes there is not a good solution, sometimes you have to choose the lesser bad.
But remember: the siren mentioned this was literally the only path they had home (and don’t tell me they were lying, lying would’ve taken more effort) and those of us who read the Odyssey know what option 2 was, and let me tell you, NO ONE was surviving option 2
Exactly. It was either face ticked off sea god, basically sentient whirlpool child of said sea god, or the 6 headed former nymph Scylla (which you can thank Circe for the existence of.)
The whiplash of seeing Mortius screaming in disbelief and horror at Scylla accompanied by animatic, to Casper with no animatic just straight faced and vaguely confused "..so is he talking to sirens???" is HILARIOUS. Also, fun little thing I haven't seen anyone talking about- that last "we are the same you and I". Besides the emotional pain of seeing ody identify fully with a terrifying sea monster, the "I" he joins in on IS the danger motif; solidifying the fact that he was never IN danger during that song, he WAS the danger.
I like how depending on which versions of what myths you read you just have 2 of Poseidon's daughters basically right next to each other, both turned into horrifying monsters and he just doesn't go there.
No I think his daughter Charybdis you are talking about ? Scylla is not Poseidon's daughter.... at least not in the version of the Odyssey that I read , Charybdis on the other hand is the daughter of Gaia and Poseidon (yuck) and she is right next to the lair of Scylla
@@merusotajio2222 I likewise don't remember reading a version of the Odyssey where Scylla was Poseidon's daughter... I don't remember where I read it or exactly when I read it but I remember reading a story where she was related to Poseidon before Circe got to her (pretty sure it was as his daughter or maybe grand daughter)... But I could also be misremembering there are a lot of Greek myths (and a lot of versions of them) and it's easy to get them mixed up when it's been years since having read quite a few of them. That all said, if I'm misremembering I'll own that mistake.
@@merusotajio2222 Also I am completely aware that Charybdis is Poseidon's daughter, unless I've lost the ability to read I believe I mentioned there being multiple daughters of Poseidon near each other.
So during the fight scene with Mutiny - The crew isn't cheering on Eury / Ody. Instead, they are almost begging them not to fight. Like "calm down, we don't need to do this-". This is why after they chant Odysseus, they say "There is no price he won't pay-". They come to the realisation that Eury had at the start of Mutiny.
Which is a bit stupid since they are alive because that came at a price since both the other options means all lives would be lost, but also Odysseus told Eurylochus to stand down but he didn't but this crew has made so many dumb decisions up to this point that I don't expect any of them to think logically
It’s Ody’s job to protect his people. He betrayed them. Of course they mutinied. But it’s just tragic and frustrating to see the way they IMMEDIATELY mess things up and run back to relying on him.
I mean, both Poseidon and Charibdys would have sunk the whole ship unless they learn to fly they wouldn't avoid the loss of life. The least they could do is not repeat the same mistake that they did in Polyphemus but that seems like to much to ask
His crew betrayed him long before he betrayed them He did his best against polyphemus, poseidon wouldn't have been an issue if they hadn't betrayed him with the bag of wind, and STILL after that betrayal Odysseus risked his life to save them yet again against circe
@@F.S.S.64 Unfortunately, Poseidon (if Oddyseus made it to Ithaca and the wind bag didn't open) would have drown the entire kingdom. This can be inferred from a future song (Spoilers for the context) . . . . . . . . where Poseidon practically tells Oddyseus to drown in the water or he'll drown his kingdom instead. So yeah, the Polyhemus part still fucked up Oddyseus's crew. Not like what they did with the wind-bag was justified, but Poseidon would still have gotten them-- they just would have died on the soil of Ithaca (their home) instead of the ocean or any other place but their home. Hope this makes sense!!!
Odysseus when he spots danger: "Show yourself, I know you're watching me." Eurylochus when he spots danger: "Something approaches." Poseidon (Wet Hades) when he spots danger: "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves! Die!" Casper when he spots danger: Gets hyped LOLLLL
One of my favorite things about the song Scylla is its subtle references to Scylla's mythological backstory, and how those references add depth to its comparison of Odysseus and Scylla. At the beginning, Scylla sings of betrayal, harbored shame, and broken bonds; all things she experienced when she was transformed by Circe and essentially lost any connection to her old self and life. Observing the situation on the boat, Scylla in that moment relates to Odysseus, recognizing how he too has been betrayed and is feeling ashamed and isolated by his new nature. Scylla then sings, "Drown in your sorrow and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed 'til you've run out of years", which is a direct reference to her own transformation in the bathing pool when she was turned from nymph into sea monster by Circe. The next lyrics highlight this moment and its consequences as well: "Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you bathe". But they also hint at how Scylla made the choice to willingly embrace her new monstrous self at this pivotal moment, by letting her old self die in that bathing pool and instead accepting who she had become (a wraith without honor or faith). All this to say, by hearing these hints of Scylla's backstory in the song that she brings up in observation of Odysseus, our conclusions as to how they are "the same" end up being deeper and more nuanced. They're not just abominable beings. We see that both Scylla and Odysseus were unwillingly turned into monsters (Scylla by Circe and Odysseus by Poseidon and his journey), yet both decided to willingly embrace their new natures in order to ensure their own survival. EDIT: This turned into a giant word salad, my apologies. I've spent so long trying to make it legible, but I've given up at this point, so hopefully you can kind of see what I'm saying ;-;
Look I don’t like Eury, but I understand him. He can’t see past his own pessimism, which is why Ody and his unconventional witty schemes was captain. Once Ody became a danger to the crew, the crew (who got the whole ruthlessnessis mercy thing a lot earlier on), turned on him. I get it. I just wish they didn’t immediately commit suicide by eating those cows. Seems like a waste of a mutiny ya know.
Exactly. They saw how he was willing to kill 6 of them to get home, how were they supposed to know which of them would be next? I love it when people get it. Odysseus said he would become a monster to “everyone but us” the crew assumed they were part of “us”. Turns out it was just Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus.
For what I've heard, it's a lot more understandable in the original story. Zeus had manipulated the winds to keep them stranded on this island for days. Imagine, days spent starving while surronded by cows that you cannot eat. Sure, they knew that killing those cows would invite divine punishement but from their point of view, starvation was worse than any death even the gods could inflict on them. Only Odysseus was urging them to hold on. In the end, the crew ate the cows while Odysseus was seeking councel from the gods in his sleep.
Scylla(Skilla) was a beautiful sea nymph, daughter of Poseidon and Ceto(Keto), but she was loved by a sea god Glaucus, so her jealous rival Circe used magic to transform her into a monster. She doesn't feed on monsters because her mother is the creator of sea monsters. She can only eat humans and creatures of Amphitrite like dolphins and small sharks, the humans because Glaucus was a mortal fishermen so he's now the patron of fishermen, this is a part of the myth that calls back to the Die in the blood where you bathe 'He applied to Circe for means to make Scylla return his love; but Circe, jealous of the fair maiden, threw magic herbs into the well in which Scylla was wont to bathe, and by these herbs the maiden was metamorphosed in such a manner, that the upper part of her body remained that of a woman, while the lower part was changed into the tail of a fish or serpent, surrounded by dogs' I am so frustrated with this crew. First, all of them are at fault for the bag since no one stopped Eurylochus from opening the bag when Odysseus fell asleep after 9 days, and because of that, not only did they not finally return home but also Odys mom kills herself after seeing them get blown away, because of the bag and their actions in the Cyclops saga every other ships drowns but theirs, and after Odysseus makes the hard decision to sacrifice 6 men's so others can live and you know avoid Poseidon they stage a Mutiny and then decide to spit on all the sacrificed lives up until that point and harmed the sun gods cows repeating the same mistake they did in Polyphemus. Edit: bit more about Scylla, also I just noticed this means not only did Odysseus and his crew angered both Poseidon and Helios and their respective daughters Scylla and Circe
I’m not 100% sure but I think they refer to Apollo instead of Helios because of the cows since I recall that among the first trickery Hermes did stealing Apollo cows was one of them, plus I don’t remember cows being link in anyway to Helios.
I mean... when you consider it, Odysseus just proved that he values his men's lives less than his goal of getting home. The men cannot trust Odysseus anymore - they've been growing in doubts since he froze on seeing Polites die and stood back while they begged for orders when his spoken plan against Polyphemus failed. He made the hard decision to sacrifice six people's lives so HE could get home. In the fight, "I am not letting you get in *my* way." In the second half of Mutiny "*I* have to get home." Their commander is willing to barter with their lives to save his own, which means they can't trust that he'll have their backs. That's a pretty normal reason for Mutiny. Opening the wind bag WAS a huge mistake, it was the first consequence of their loss of faith in Odysseus for his faltering. RIP everyone's mistakes contributing to a horrible end. I do wish Epic kept the passage of time that shows why the crew kill Helios' cattle; it's weaker reasoning here compared to the source text.
@Janky03 Yes, Helios did have cows. They are also referred to as oxen. In Book XII of The Odyssey, Odysseus and his men approach Thrinakia, the island where the cattle and sheep precious to Helios are kept and watched over by his daughters, Phaethusa and Lampetia. Helio is referred to as the Titan God of the Sun and Jay has confirmed it is Helios
@@raijade9644 Technically no matter what Odysseus chooses it would end in loss of life because if Scylla didn't see six sacrifices she would just destroy the ship and eat six or more bodies from the destroyed ship, their other choice is Charybdis who would swallow their ship on the other side of Scylla or go some other way and deal with Poseidon who would just sink or crush their ship
I mean, from Eurylochus’ perspective he had just been taught by Odysseus multiple times (cyclops + circe saga) that they should never give up, should always look out for each other, at EVERY turn Odysseus kept teaching him and the crew that lesson. And at this point, it has probably slowly made an impression that things *can* work out if they take risks. So yeah, in the first half of Mutiny I can’t really blame him for being mad, when the man who preached “no man gets left behind!” for the entirety of act 1 suddenly does a 180° and uses them as sacrifices. In that moment, Odysseus is (in my opinion) just as much a hypocrite/traitor as Eurylochus has been in the past. That’s the beauty of complex stories and characters (There’s also the fact that the only reason to face Scylla was to make it back home. If they gave up on home, they could settle down on any random island, even sail back to Circe. Who’s the one who wants home no matter what? Odysseus. And that’s likely why he didn’t warn anyone about Scylla or his plan.) It’s kinda fun how Odysseus’ and Eurylochus’ character development happened parallel to each other, but into different directions. They literally switched their moral stance with each other for this saga. That really shows how hard the Underworld Saga changed Odysseus (both of them, really, but only got Ody’s pov). Like, in Circe he was ready to risk it all (despite knowing he had been betrayed, even if he didn’t know by whom specifically), and in the Thunder Saga he is so single minded in his quest to go home that he sees nothing but that, gets so desperate that he sacrifices six men that were by his side for 10+ years. It’s just tragic, and at the end of the day I blame the gods for everything (and Jorge! xD) Well, it’s going to be fun to see your reaction to the last song next week!
Btw: The sun god is actually Helios. Not Apollo. Helios is where we got the Heliocentric system term from (since our solar system revolves around the sun). Also fun fact Eurylochus is Oddyseus's brother in law. Which means Oddyseus's sister was also waiting for husband . . . .
They're both sun gods, Helios is an older deity and Apollo is a later one. Worship of Helios faded with time, and his sun god business was folded into Apollo, same with Selene and Artemis. That's why Apollo/Helios and Selene/Artemis are used interchangeably across so many myths.
@hamzafawad9331 yeah, you're right. My bad. I was just thinking about how Helios was the original one and how in the Odyssey they were referring to Helios. But you're right, my bad.
At first it was Wet Hades and then we got Posiren. Ladies, gentlemen and everyone else, I am proud to tell you that a new member has been added. Everyone say hello to Euryscylla (Eurylla?)! Edit: Pretty sure Helios is a sun titan, not a god, Apollo is the sun god. What's weird is that they claim that it's the sun god's cows (a.i. Apollo's) even though they are owned by Helios in the original myth.
Apollo didn't yet become the main sun god, he was however an olympian god of light, plague, prophecy etc., they also use the daughter of Helios version of Circe
Don't be so hard on yourself for not catching all the details on your first listen! ...I once commented that Odysseus should have traded shifts with Eurylochus over the wind bag. We've all said stupid things :)
I don't know how but Casper simultaneously manages to be a prophet but in the stupidest way possible??? does that make sense?? like he will make a guess about one thing and the next he'll guess something that happens later that he should have no idea about yet 😭
5:09 I'm guessing Scylla (lurking and observing) has an inner monologue about comparing Ody/or a nameless captain of a random ship with herself for she assumes him to take this route knowing what comes next. That he would willingly sacrifice 6 other people to make it thorough her lair. And with the "Hello" she was actually talking to them out loud. Meanwhile Ody and Eury have an actual conversation... and things are happening
I like to think with the "You relied on wit, and then we died on it" line, Odysseus is starting to hallucinate from the blood loss and sees the faces of his crew that died looking down at him before he passes out. Maybe he even sees Polites, looking so sad at the monster his friend became.
scylla is actually singing about odysseus...if you relisten to it then you understand that from the start she is singing about odysseus but the lines about betrayl match with Eurylochus's confession so we all at first think that she's talking about him but it's odysseus!!!!!! the end just justifies it and all the lines too as ody knew he had to sacrifice 6 men in order to get past scylla right away after sirens told him it's the only way so it's ODYSSEUS who is betraying everyone in a way
(Copy pasting my comment from Mortius’ vid cuz I’m so used to the dual reactions atp) Eury and Ody have made VERY stupid mistakes (and it’s funny to me how some ppl get on you two’s case for calling Ody dumb before cause of stuff like the self-doxxing against the Goddess of Wisdom’s wishes), they’re both human and have been worn down beyond belief. But Ody making Eury light 6 torches to unknowingly mark 6 of his friends for death after he was guilt ridden over the bag was the first nearly malicious act- especially cause it seems like Eury was meant to die too. It’s heartwarming that they still cared for each other after the fight. Eurylochus calling him “Ody” and losing hope saying they weren’t gonna make it home was so sad tho, honestly everyone deserved better. Ik he’s controversial as a character but Eury is my personal fav :)
Odysseus and Eurylochus are my top 2 characters in this musical, and I 100% agree lol. Ultimately, I just think it's nice that they could KIND OF remain brothers before the crew was killed.
So refreshing, because they're both dum-dums, but I like them equally as well. The Odysseus vs Eurylochus wars go crazy. Thooooo, if I had to pick a side. ~How are we supposed to trust you now?~ 😎
SAME, EURYLOCHUS IS MY FAV TOO and his voice is so good man, the worst part was that Odysseus was my fav and Eurylochus too so the fight even tho i knew it was coming was painful
Oh yeah, Eury was definitely meant to get eaten. I think it’s more than just the betrayal. In Luck Runs Out, Odysseus warn Eury to comply with his orders or they’d all die, and Eury deliberately disobeyed him. Odysseus realized Eury was always going to second guess and undermine him and he needed to get out of the way
@@dragonstouch1042 tbh this kind of strengthens the crew's position on the matter. "This guy is a bad second-in-command, let's KILL him" isn't a sane way to go about things.
Scylla's dialogue/lyrics actually reflect her own mythological backstory of being turned by Circe while she was in the bathing pool. Her initial transformation is traumatically forced upon her, ripping away her old life and physically destroying her body: "Drown in your sorrow and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed til you've run out of years". But in that bathing pool, after transforming, she willingly accepts and embraces her new identity as a monster, killing that old part of herself that was human: "Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you *bathe* / We must do what it takes to survive". She sees her own story in Odysseus: someone forcibly transformed into a monster who ultimately embraces that role. I just think it's cool that her lyrics aren't just like meant to intimidate the men, but hold meaning for her own story.
* Coughs in PROPHET * The editing on this video was top notch I could not stop rewinding here and there just to laugh some more! "I can't defend past Casper anymore" LOL
I’m not gonna lie to you Casper. I have watched every episode with you and Mortius and I know you love Polites, but from an objective storytelling perspective, Eurylochus is a far better and more sympathetic character. I love Polites, don’t get me wrong. He is one of my favorite characters ever. But Eurylochus is in many songs, when Polites barely has any, first pleading with Odysseus to be careful when Odysseus was often reckless in Luck Runs Out, then wanting to abandon his crew in Puppeteer and then, after Odysseus shows him that all their men are worth saving, Eurylochus tells Odysseus what Odysseus once told him, to value the lives of every crew member. Throughout, acting as a perfect foil for each part of Odysseus’ character arcs, Eurylochus evokes far more thought and respect than Polites ever did, bless his heart. As sad as the thud and “Captain…” of Polites’ final moments, Eurylochus’ pleading and hopelessness from hunger, exhaustion and distrust acts as far more of a tragic moment instead of just a shocking one. It’s not subjective. It’s literary science that Eurylochus is a better character.
@@DrakeDragonton Don't worry technically if we boil down to small choices the reason there are in this situation is because Polites listened to the Lotus Eaters, Odysseus wanted to leave
I just realized with the motifs, eurylicus kind of went by a mini odyseus journey. Forgive me (infant & wind bag), full speed ahead, fight with a monster (cyclops & scylla), emotional stupid action and loss (reveal of name and my goodbye & mutiny), home of the wind/sun god and luck runs out, a fast "full speed ahead" into danger to end with a god coming in retribution
I know people have been arguing about this since the song dropped, but my personal opinion is that Odysseus, as a leader and a king, has a responsibility to get as many men home as he possibly can. He left Ithaca for war, and logically speaking, he should have lost at least 10% of his men. That's 60 who SHOULD have died, but due to his leadership and wit, all 600 survived for 10 years. That's truly impressive. Now he's trying to get 43 home, but the only way requires 6 to die. He lit the torches so ONLY 6 would become targets. Easily, the whole crew could have become snacks. He got them through a creature so terrifying, Poseidon himself refuses to go near. Imagine being faced with something THAT dangerous, and using guile to kept the bloodshed to the barest minimum possible. He should have lost 60 men in war. He instead sacrificed 6 to save the rest. He's a king, a leader, focused on the bigger picture, even when all options are crappy. That's the brutal reality of leadership. Eurylochus is commonborn, a follower, he sees what's in front of him, be it men on a ship or a cow and his own hunger. Eurylochus has only ever in his life been tangentially responsible for 600 men, while Odysseus is a king to an entire island with thousands of subjects dependent on him. Eurylochus has also proved himself to be completely ignorant of divine beings. Ody knew what he was up against and what "Scylla's price" was. The rest obviously didn't know. Hell, they didn't even know about the sacred cows. There's something to be said about keeping your men ignorant in the face of grave danger, and this happens all the time in warfare. If you let the men in the trenches know just how many it's gonna be, they won't follow orders. His crew has already REPEATEDLY proved to be unwilling to obey him... ESPECIALLY Eurylochus. No one would have held a torch, they would have crashed into the rocks or taken too long in the lair, and they all would have perished. So yes, Ody sacrificed 6 men, because he wanted to get as many men through alive as possible. Sacrifice 6 to save 37. "Needs of the many" and all that. If he didn't care about saving as many as possible, he would not have even lit the torches to begin with. Spoiler: that all changed after they mutiny against him and he's faced with Zeus' choice. That action was more than just a mutiny against a captain... it was treason against the king, punishable by death. If he had sacrificed himself and the rest made it home, what's to stop Eurylochus from killing his wife and kid and using his marriage to Odysseus' sister to place himself on the throne? Really, screw them after that. They'd have been executed anyway. Zeus just did the dirty work for him.
@@rhov-anion And don't forget everyone but Odysseus ate the cows, there was a chance even if he left them to live they would still be punished later on by Helios or by Poseidon, this is really just Zeus being an ass and making Odysseus have more lives on his conscious
To quote what eury said “you want all the power, you carry all the blame” eury took the title of captain from him, killed the cows after being warned by ody, im on ody’s side with that choice, they did it, they suffer the price, eury wants the power, he can carry the blame…
It's crazy because in "Luck Run's Out," Odysseus pulls Eurylochus away from the view of the crew to ask 3 things of him (He could have commanded him). AND Eurylochus breaks all 3. Odysseus asked him not to sow seeds of doubt in the crew, to not disagree on any route he picks, and to always be devote! In "Mutiny" he does all 3! With Eurylochus' final action being killing one of the Sun God's cows rather than praying to Him for help or doing something for Him like Odysseus does for Aeolus.
Don't worry about getting Apollo and Helios mixed up both were Sun Gods in Greek Mythology. To simplify it heavily Helios was the original Sun God of Greek Mythology. Apollo was incorporated very late into the Greek Mythos and while he did play a part in the Iliad set before the Odyssey, he was considered at the time just the God of Prophecy, Music, and Archery
One thing that I like (and in my personal opinion) is that Scylla is not talking about Eurylochus when she says “You hide a reason for shame”, she’s talking about Odysseus and how he’s going to sacrifice his men to get home, Scylla is only singing about Odysseus and he knows this, I might be wrong in this but I like to interpret it this way
On a more serious note, I wonder whether Eurylochos after the mutiny has an actual suicidal impulse when he kills the cow... he's broken with his best friend and it's obviously been heart-breaking for him still ("Ody..."), he believes they'll never get home, and it's all a bit pointless there... There's just something about the lyrics and the voice that make me wonder whether he's looking for something (or someone) to end the whole nightmare?
to my knowledge in the og story, he knows what will happen upon killing the cow, but doesn't care. Too hungry, too defeated (anyone pls correct me if I'm wrong)
@@esthergregorovich9669 that’s what it seems like to me. Honestly Eury’s been looking through a hopeless/depressed perspective the whole musical. Every time things get hard, he turns to Ody and says, let’s give up. He didn’t want to talk to Aeolus, he opened the bag and when told to close it said “sir it’s too late”. When the men got turned to pigs he wanted to run. He just can’t see the hope or the unconventional option. He’s always been bringing Ody back to earth by trying to be the sensible one. Now that Ody isn’t hopeful, or saving everyone with some miraculous deus ex machine, how is Eury supposed to be hopeful? Eury gives up. It’s more important to him that he dies with a full stomach than survives in pain any longer.
Eurylochous sure messed up but. His capitan, the one person who always was so smart and tried to get them ALL home, who didn't lose a single man in Trojan War and dared to try and save them even from Circe - he was their kind and capitan and they DID believe in him, especially AFTER Circe where he proved he still cares and is still capable. You know, the blunder in Cyclops' Saga, the first EVER loss of men in this whole voyage, it did make them doubtful but after he proved himself anew, they and Eurylochous especially, for sure felt so guilty that they ever doubted - that's why he confessed, after all. So Odysseus choosing that moment for DELIBERATE sacrafice of his men - he does lose it because it's no longer a mistake or lack od luck that gets them killed - it's Odysseus' choice. How Are They Supposed To Trust Him Now? When it comes to Eurylychous' choice when killing cows - god, that's SO juicy! Maybe it's Zeus' influence and manipulation, maybe it's him realizing that they can't get home and so they might as well satisfy their hunger - maybe it is a suicide attempt caused by grief loss of hope of ever getting home. Maybe it's him choosing death instead of uncertainty of their future voyage. So many interprtations so there are so many options, it feels like a waste to reduce it just to him being stupid. In the end, I would say that it's not fair to judge Eurylochous based only on his mistakes, just like it wouldn't be fair to judge Odysseus only on his. Neither of this charactes is fully right or wrong, they are just tired and stressed and painfully human, playthings in the hands of gods...
I love everything about the siren in this song! Knowing that she's a sacrifice for Scylla and tempting Eurylacus (and possibly some others) into painting a target on his back. Reassuring Odysseus that this is a good and necessary choice. And then to use her powers to spur on the crew as they flee! It's just absolutely beautiful and I love it!
Here's a funny little count: Ody begins with 600 Men under his command. Polyphemus killed 15, counting Polites and the rest of the sounds of the club in "Survive", leaving Ody with 585 Men. Then, Poseidon kills 542 Men in "Ruthlessness", leaving him with 43 Men. Then, Elpenor gets drunk on Circe's palace roof and falls to his death, leaving Ody with 42 Men. And in "Scylla", Ody sacrifices 6 men so she's too busy chewing to kill the rest... So now, counting Eurylochus and Perimedes, Ody has 36 Men left before "Thunder Bringer"! Or at least, he did before Eurylochus signed their death sentence before killing Helios' cow. :) Can't blame you for thinking Helios was Apollo. After Helios was forgotten, Apollo took over as God of the Sun, but in the time of the Odyssey, he was still in charge. EDIT: So here's a funny thing - since making this Comment, Jay dropped a snippet of a Cut Song, which states "528 Men"... Since it was before Circe, I believe this means Polyphemus actually killed 72 MEN before they got to "Ruthlessness". So yeah. A bit more than 15, as it turns out, which means Poseidon only killed 485 Men, leaving only 43...
@@NightFury11818 So here's a funny thing: since making this Comment, Jay dropped a snippet of a Cut Song, which states "528 Men"... Since it was before Circe, I believe this means Polyphemus actually killed 72 MEN before they got to "Ruthlessness". So yeah. A bit more than 15, as it turns out, which means Poseidon only killed 485 Men, leaving only 43...
Man, your reaction upon seeing Scylla's depiction was perfection. XD (Fun (?) fact: In the original material, across from Scylla was a monster called Charybdis. Circe advised Odysseus to sail closer to Scylla even at the cost of 6 men, otherwise not even Zeus himself would be able to save them from Charybdis (yes, she was that much worse). So he chose the lesser of two evils. And, to this day, the Greek equivalent of 'Caught between a rock and a hard place' is 'Caught between Scylla and Charybdis'. )
I think the biggest motivator for Mutiny is that Ody didn't bother to tell anyone. He tricked them and expected them to either never figure it out or just be cool with it. Like for example if he told everyone what was going on and asked them to draw lots to see who holds the torches, I don't think they would have rebelled in this version of the story. It was his job to spend the lives of his men for the greater good and get as many home as possible. However if you notice whenever Ody talks about getting home it stops being "We" and becomes "I" to show his shift in priority after the Underworld Saga. Not that any of this writes Eury off, he fucked up and tries to make up for it and his moment of trying to trust his captain got turned on it's head. Don't get me wrong, he's not the brightest bulb in the drawer but Ody is and his mistrust and drive to get home no matter the cost turned everyone against him.
Okay, but is anyone else hearing "pork chop" for the choir in 'Mutiny'? Because I cannot unhear it and it sounds like they are singing it TWICE. It's not even pork, it's beef!
Fun fact: Scyllas lines that she sings to Odysseus mirror her own backstory - "give up your honor and faith/live your life as a wraith/die in the blood where you bathe/we must do what it takes to survive". Scylla was the lover of a water god Glaucus. A jealous Circe (in some versions Amphitrite) betrays Scylla and poisons the water she bathes in, which turns her into a monster.
This just came to me, since everyone had wax in their ears when the sirens sang, and Odysseus lip read the important information the siren said, when Odysseus asked how to avoid Poseidon, the sirens said, you have to go where “he would never go ”, “where he’s scared to roam”, and Eurylochus asks why they didn't fight Scylla, but just run away. So if Poseidon never goes there, and is scared to roam there, what will ordinary humans do to Scylla but run away.
@PetarSon He doesn't go there out of guilt more than fear since both of his daughters are there and cursed, and he can't help them, of course ody doesn't know that
The duality of Casper is predicting the name of the 4th song while simultaneously absolutely committing to mixing up the names of the actors playing Eurylocus and Scylla. And that's why I come to this channel
26:20 Jorge saidr that the electric guitar ( _Odysseus'_ instument when he's being cunning) is backing up _Eurylochus_ as Eury is trying to Ody's position as captain.
The danger motif happens twice in mutiny. First during the start of Ody and Eury's fight after Eury says "you have forced my hand" it's a high pitched violin (or cello??). Then of course, the danger motif happens again at the end after they kill the cow.
13:21 I've listened to this song multiple times since it came out but this is the first time I've heard the men screaming in the background or well the six screams from the men Scylla killed they get drowned out by the drum noises if you don't listen
My interpretation of Eurylochus' motives is pretty grim. Basically, he's lost all hope of ever getting home, now. They're still far away, there's a little over thirty left of them, they don't have food, and can't trust their captain and leader to think in their best interest, he just literally used six of their friends - of twelve years - as monster bait. Eurylochus and the rest of the crew are starving, and since they're dying anyway, which one is most likely to at least be faster, dying by divine retribution, or slowly starving at sea? So killing a god's cow would feed him and the others, and afterwards, their end will be fast and not lingering.
Yo! I just realized something I haven’t seen in comments yet! Ody is stabbed in the back by one of his men, remember all the way back to the Horse and the Infant, Ody has a vision of being stabbed in the back and what is said next?? Zeus comes in and says “A vision, OF WHAT IS TO COME. Cannot be outrun.” And before that when he was stabbed and he asks “who was that?” Because he never saw who it was, meaning he didn’t know he would be betrayed! Even all the way back to the very first song we were told about this happening!!!
I don't know if you noticed this, but there was another appearance of the danger motif that i don't think you noticed due to focusing on the guitar. When Eurylochus draws his sword at the beginning of Mutiny, the strings in the background of the guitar play the danger motif
Actually, Apollo is also the sungod. Helios was the original titan of the sun, however, the romans started worshipping Apollo as a god of the sun, therefore effectively making it his domain too. There's also a myth about Apollo having holy cattle in the origin myth of hermes. Idk if the Odysee actually specifies deity but it could go both ways in Epic.
So near the end of the civilization we call Ancient Greece, Apollo had all but supplanted Helios as a sun god (though he was, to begin with, mostly a god of light/civilization/society). The romans basically just chose not to assimilate Helios, leaving him exclusively as a greek god. And yeah, both in EPIC and the Odyssey, the sun god mentioned is Helios.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 thanks for the info ! I just remembered that SPOILERS In a snippet of god games Athena has to convince Apollo among others, so I thought that could be related but if it's originally Helios, that's probably who Jorge uses.
@Al_-cf1dj Technically in thunder bringer because Odysseus was incapacitated he didn't participate in the hurting of the cows and in the original myth he was the only one not to eat them so Helios has no reason to go after him, Apollo is an olympian who sided with troy, Zeus could have chosen him for the Troy reason and/or because he was on the olympian council
@@anastasija6866 yeah, I'm trying to remember if Odysseus violated one of Apollo's bagillion domains but I think being on the side that murdered his priests(?) and killed a bunch of people he liked, in a city he was the patron of (while also destroying it and being indirectly responsible for the war starting in the first place , what with making all the suitors swear to protect Helen), helped build and had a son in.... yeah, he's not gonna be happy with Ody at ALL.
@Al_-cf1dj Yeah, his side, especially Agamemnon, made an enemy of Apollo and then I can't really fault him for the start of the war, he made them swear a pact as a favour to Helenas dad so he could stop them fight and inciting a war and so that he gets Penelope, he couldn't have really foresaw Eris throwing the apple and the goddesses making Paris choose, but Hectors son also happened. What I can't remember is why Hephaestus, yeah, he's an Olympian he doesn't really have a stake in it, Artemis would have been harder to convince
20:23 to be fair, helios is syncronized into apollo in some myths, which is why apollo is also sometimes depicted with a herd of sacred cows, we don't have any of the lyrics for apollo's section in a future song but we know he's in it, and there's no implication helios will show up at all in the musical, so it's possible jorge will just classify apollo as the god of the sun for the sake of simplicity
Casper you are so funny and was in full prophet mode in this video I love it! lol Thanks for doing this and sharing your reaction with us, especially when you were filming it while sick. You brought me and my 2 friends who I dragged in to watch this at lunch break much, much joy!
Two things! One: I love how Odysseus tells Eurlychus to light sing torches but never tells him to distribute them like we all assume he did. I love it cause it makes my mind wonder if he only meant for Eury to die. Two: Is it me or does the singer for Scylla sound like TH-camr cover artist AnnaPantsu?
I mean, what else is Eurylichus supposed to do? Hold six torches? He for sure meant for Eury to distribute them to other men, especially considering the official animatics
@juliannagoodwin2875 In the live stream animatic, he has his back turned, so he doesn't know who got torches. He only turns when Scylla begins he assault by saying Hello
I dont blame anyone for getting Lord Apollo and Lord Helios mixed up on the "Home of the Sun God" front. Cuz technically speaking, Helios isn't the God of the sun- he is the sun. Like, the literally embodiment of the literally sun. Lord Apollo is the Sun God (its one of his titles) so the only way you'll really know whos who in the song (cuz of the lack of clarification) is if you know about the immortal cows of Helios thing or if you've already read the Odyssey.
@salswisteria But Helios is called the Titan God of the sun, Apollo gained the title of God of the sun later in myths. Right now, he is only connected to Light not Sunlight yet but he is an olympian
HI CASPER, Sorry, this comment has nothing to do with the thunder saga, BUT I'll get straight to the point cause I found this very interesting. So in the first song (The horse and the Infant) when Zeus and Odysseus are having the back to back conversation over the child (RIP the Yeet baby) They are actually having a sort of call and response. In the animatic (Credits to the God of animatics, Gigi), when the angle is spinning around, Odysseus is trying to list the ways to try and not end the childs life. (The lyrics saying "I could raise him as my own," "or send him far away from home." "Make sure his past is never known.") But ZEUS is responding to Odysseus by saying the ways that the child would always come back to leave blood of Odysseus hands. (Responding with, "He will burn your house down," "He will find you whenever," and "The GODS will make him know.""). Also, i dont know if this is correct. This is just what I'm hearing. So please dont come after me 🙏🏻 Sorry about this rant of mine. This is just what I wanted to say after listening back to the first Saga. Also, Casper, if you see this, I LOVE your content, and im new to your channel. I hope that you are enjoying Epic! Much love ❤️
While lighting 6 torches was necessary for the good of the crew, having eurycus had them out and hold one of them means it would get rid of Eury himself AND any of he’s trusted crew mates, as he’d definitely give the “most important” jobs to he’s closest friends. If Eruy didn’t pass off his torch like in the animatic mutiny would never happen cuz…there would be no one left to question or stand up to ody. Coincidentally ody is also proving what Athena saw in him with this move, he’s using the crew like chess pieces and being the strategist savant Athena expected and knew him to be
About "how the cow is still mooing" He says those cows are immortal, and ody does not say eurylecus killed one. He just says he made them angry. So I picture the cow, with a massive cut on its neck, ichor dripping down, still standing and turning its glare at Eurylecus
"those WERE immortal" suggests other wise. Biological immortality describes a cell or organism not being able age rather than just being straight up indestructible. In the original story he also just kills them. Like the image tho
Lol. Immortal doesn’t mean invulnerable. Immortal just means they live forever if they AREN’T MURDERATED. (Ask any decapitated or staked or burned vampire… I’m sure they can… oh wait 😈😏) And he asks the question like there is ONLY one cow… BUT cows are in herds right? That could be a totally different cow mooing in horrified grief and morning for its friend or just fear and upset for its own survival seeing its buddy murdered.
Just a short little defence of Eurylochus. Eurylochus was the second in command. It's quite literally his job to question Odysseus. King or not, the second in command is meant to question the captain, to provide a second opinion. Not to blindly follow his orders, that's what the soldiers are meant to do. Eurylochus has so far, presented reasonable objections. On the lotus eater island, he provides a counter point to simply hoping that whoever on the island is friendly. Better safe than sorry, we don't want to lose our captain. With the wind god, the whole Trojan war has been nothing but the Gods messing with mortals. He's right to be sceptical when this 10 year war has dragged on because everytime one side got close to winning, a God would swoop in shift the balance. Not to mention the whole war started because the gods were petty and vain. Him opening the wind bag is his mistake, but he immediately realizes it. He immediately helps Odysseus close it, and tries to own up to the mistake on Circe's island. Plus, in ancient Greece wars usually resulted in the winning side returning home with gold and treasure. The Trojan war had none of that, as the Greeks fled immediately after sacking Troy. Plus Odysseus not so discretely telling Eurylochus to "Shut up and don't question me" would give him reason to doubt Odysseus when he says that a literal storm is in a bag. Again, Eurylochus made a mistake, and he knows that. But it's not like he just did it without reason. This is the biggest one. On Circe's island Eurylochus is completely in the right. The men turned pigs, not only walked right into their own fates, but were also as good as dead. Circe is a powerful sorceress and Odysseus would not have been able to beat her without Hermes' help. Eurylochus is saying "don't get yourself killed over men who are basically dead" and Odysseus says "Yeah no" and it only works out cuz Hermes happened to be passing by. But the thing is. All these scenarios have taught Eurylochus that Odysseus is a braver and more selfless man than he is. That Odysseus is willing to look at an impossible task and say. "I'll figure it out." Not only that, but that Odysseus's number 1 priority is getting his crew home safely. Now with Scylla, that's changed. Odysseus didn't scheme to sneak past her. Odysseus didn't say. "hey, six of us are gonna have to die here, lets figure it out." He just went along with it. That's perfect reason for any captain to be forcibly removed from command. Now add onto it that, canonically, Odysseus gave the torches to Eurylochus. Making Eurylochus decide who gets to die. PLUS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO GOT A TORCH WAS EURYLOCHUS. All of this, constantly having his input ignored, having a captain who's getting more selfish by the second and nearly dying, the mutiny was bound to happen. Now the cows? Again, Eurylochus made a mistake. But as he says, he legit doesn't think they'll get home. He knows that, sooner or later, he'll join Polites. Add onto that, the fact he's starving and that seriously messes with your logical thinking, it's not like he had much choice. TLDR: Eurylochus is the voice of reason in a world without reason. He warns about reality, but forgets that Odysseus is the main character. Then when Odysseus realizes his crew are background characters at best, Eurylochus stands up for them. Then he realizes that the story is hopeless and would rather die having had the best goddamn steak there is, than starving in the jaws of some new monster.
My favorite part of Mutiny is that it's a complete role reversal of Luck Runs Out. In the latter, Odysseus wants to do something reckless (bargain with Aeolus) on the island of the wind god. Eurylochus is opposed to this, warning Ody that the gods aren't trustworthy. In the former, Eurylochus wants to do something reckless (kill the sacred cow) on the island of the sun god. Odysseus is opposed to this, warning Eurylochus that Helios be angered. You can even hear the similarities between "This is the home of the wind god!" and "This is the home of the sun god!" P.S. I love the Pikachu outfit for the Thunder saga :D
Thank you so much for the video! I adore The Thunder saga as a while and these two songs specifically so much, it not only sounds amazing, but is such an interesting story and character exploration (specifically Odysseus). I really enjoyed the reaction:D
It’s very understandable to mix up Helio and Apollo. Apollo is associated with the sun a lot, especially in his later Roman version. (And his twin sister Artemis is often linked to the moon, so there’s a lot of double-symbolism.) In some versions of the mythos, Helio retired from being the sun god and passed the role onto Apollo. It also makes a bit more sense why Zeus would show up if the sun god mentioned was Apollo; Zeus is Apollo’s father, but Zeus is Helio’s nephew, if I remember correctly. (Either way, the sun god is too busy steering the sun across the sky, so Zeus goes instead.) Also, both Helio and Apollo have cows! In the Odyssey, Eurylochus and the men sacrifice one of Helio’s gold cows to Zeus to try and get the wind blowing again, even though the prophet specifically told Odysseus not to touch those cows. And Apollo’s cows appear in the story of Hermes’ birth, where literal baby Hermes forces the other gods to recognize him as a fellow god - and forces Zeus to admit that Hermes is his son - by stealing Apollo’s cows.
I love how Eurylochus drops the formalities and calls him Odey when desperate and out of his mind with hunger. He's fallen back to a younger self where Odyseus was his friend not his king and captain. Then, when he comes to his senses, he calls Odyseus Captain then falls back yo following orders
What’s interesting is eury would’ve done the same like he did on circe island. So when he points out how Odysseus went back for everyone before, it probably frustrates him
Whenever I hear those background chants near the end of Mutiny I swear they're saying "How now brown cow." And to answer how the cow is still moving after getting its head chopped off Ody says they're immortal.
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I rlly wish I could get patreon, but for reasons I can't. But will always support here!! Ty for vidz
yo ass is so dumb then you just pull out absolute genius at random
Hii casper i have new really good animators that you can check out with Mortius ill tag yall in my community tab with the links!
Your shivers at Mutiny are accurate.
Eurylochus: YOU ARE TAKING ALL THE BLAME!!!!
*kills sacred cow*
Captain…..? *sad hamster 🥺*
Eurylochus: Captain, you’ll save us, right? 🥺
Odysseus, still actively bleeding through his shirt + has a bruised eye: 🤨
@@emerson4140 HAHAHAHAH
To be fair to Eury, it’s that Ody desperation snapped him out of his starvation torpor
@@emerson4140i mean they did patch him up atleast...
I love watching the live chat for
1. The audience bullying Casper
2. Casper yelling that it was 3 am and he had a fever
The one commenter "he's cooking, but he's burning the food" 😂🤣
Don’t forget the beginning where chat was crucifying mortius for stopping in the middle of mutiny in his reaction
Casper tryna say Scylla is the same energy as Benedict Cumberbatch saying penguins in that one documentary 💀😂
omg nooooooo I've seen that hahahaahha
Brilliant😂
@@Mojojojoei I officially died 😂💀
Swimming with Polites now. Finally reunited with my sunshine boy, so everythings fine again. He welcomed me with open arms 😭😭💙
Penwings/Penlings lol
@@Mojojojoei pewlings
“Scyllychus is not real: Scyllychus can’t hurt you,”
Scyllychus:
Timestamp?
@@kimuwii9971 Every time he says Scylla is played by Armando Julian. One of them is at 22:50 ish
Something I have not seen elaborated is how that truly was a deliberate sacrifice, yes, but it was so because Scylla ACCEPTED it.
She targeted the torches and did not try to go after more sailors, effectively granting them passage at a cost. THAT is why she sings all those "we" and "deep down we are the same" to Odysseus. She saw his intent and recognized it. And that is why Odysseus harmonizes in the end, because he agrees. Say "I am a monster" without saying "I am a monster".
“The lair of Eurylochus… this is our only way home.” (The image of Scylla with 6 Eury heads is so good)
As someone else commented..."Eurscyllachus"
ScyllaRylochus
I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS GOOFBALL WAS THE ONE WHO STARTED THAT!! Someone drew Scylla with six Eury heads and I was so confused. ITS WET HADES ALL OVER AGAIN
Armando's performance as scylla was so good
real
Such a versatile voice. The talent of a generation
Eurscyllacus
I was so confused at the beginning
@@BrandonVout😂😂
So, we have Wet Hades, Posiren, and now Scyllochus lol I love it here
Scyryllachus?
can't forget the time where he called Odysseus Poseidon 💀
"Posiren"!
I had heard "Poseidon with a wig", but Posiren is fantastic.
Since we know that the next song is "Thunderbringer", I don't think this will spoil anything, but Jay revealed after the livestream that the first four lines of the chorus in "No Longer You" are "Siren song, Scylla throat, mutiny, lightning bolt."
So, literally the songs in the Thunder Saga, gods Jay is such a fantastic artist.
OHHH ITS TRUE!!!! I always thought it was was a rumor. MR. JALAPEÑO YOU GENIUS
That last bit is actually pretty tragic tbh, because even though ALL this betrayal and drama just happened, the moment their lives are on the line everyone slips back into the way it’s always been. Ody tries to save them, and they obey their captain.
He absolutely does not try to save them. As much as I generally defend both Odysseus and Eurylochus in this saga, the crew aren't even on Odysseus's radar as people he cares about.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 yes he did because it's either 6 visible men or Scylla destroys the ship and eats six or more from the fallen bodies, their other choices are Charybdis and Poseidon who would swallow/drown the whole ship
@@aadityayanamandra8846 well he gets them rowing out of there. “Grab an oar with all the strength your arms allow”. He starts giving out commands and they follow them. Eury even calls him captain again right after he kills the cow.
I guess you could argue that Ody was just trying to save himself, but he did try to get all of them out of there as fast as possible.
@@anastasija6866 so... He took the choice that he would survive. Find me one point in act 2 where Odysseus does anything altruistic for the crew.
@@Fernsketch yeah, he was just trying to save himself? He's aware that he can't get home on his own. Once again, this isn't him doing anything for the crew, it's him needing them for his agenda.
fun fact NOT ONCE has Zeuses name been mentioned like the other characters because he needs no instructions just the sound of thunder Is enough
Introduction?
@@ivan14theamazing where it reveals them like "Ares, Ares" or with "Aphrodite" in god games
@@jaredmyers4506 meant if he meant that instead of instructions
26:20 Jorge said in one of his shorts that the electric guitar in Mutiny means that Eurylochos tries to take over the role as captain.
So I will say, Eurylochus was meant to die in Scylla from what I've gathered via listening and looking at comments. However, he ends up giving his torch to another crewmember before Scylla can get him as he tries likely saving the others. He inevitably figures out "those with torches are marked for death."
And honestly... Can't blame either side here for their actions. Ody just wants to see his wife and kid. If it means sacrificing 6 men then so be it. Small price to pay to ensure he gets home. And I doubt he'd do that more then necessary under normal circumstances.
But at the same time, he willingly and premedatatively sacrificed 6 people to Scylla. So Eurylochus' loss of hope and mutiny and such is valid. From his side, the captain is very willing to kill crew to get home. Does it make his choices good? No. Eury messed up big time. But it is very justifiable.
Exactly! People taking sides saying one is completly wrong or right is a mistake. We can say, they are both humans, not everything is black and white and sometimes there is not a good solution, sometimes you have to choose the lesser bad.
But remember: the siren mentioned this was literally the only path they had home (and don’t tell me they were lying, lying would’ve taken more effort) and those of us who read the Odyssey know what option 2 was, and let me tell you, NO ONE was surviving option 2
The only other choice is Charybdis or Poseidon, so he had no choice really
Exactly. It was either face ticked off sea god, basically sentient whirlpool child of said sea god, or the 6 headed former nymph Scylla (which you can thank Circe for the existence of.)
@Adahy_Bullet which also the child of said sea god, so it's the dad or his two daughters
The whiplash of seeing Mortius screaming in disbelief and horror at Scylla accompanied by animatic, to Casper with no animatic just straight faced and vaguely confused "..so is he talking to sirens???" is HILARIOUS. Also, fun little thing I haven't seen anyone talking about- that last "we are the same you and I". Besides the emotional pain of seeing ody identify fully with a terrifying sea monster, the "I" he joins in on IS the danger motif; solidifying the fact that he was never IN danger during that song, he WAS the danger.
12:34 daughter of Poseidon who got turned into a monster by Circe, Poseidon is 'afraid' to go there out of guilt
Scyllochus
I like how depending on which versions of what myths you read you just have 2 of Poseidon's daughters basically right next to each other, both turned into horrifying monsters and he just doesn't go there.
No I think his daughter Charybdis you are talking about ? Scylla is not Poseidon's daughter.... at least not in the version of the Odyssey that I read , Charybdis on the other hand is the daughter of Gaia and Poseidon (yuck) and she is right next to the lair of Scylla
@@merusotajio2222 I likewise don't remember reading a version of the Odyssey where Scylla was Poseidon's daughter... I don't remember where I read it or exactly when I read it but I remember reading a story where she was related to Poseidon before Circe got to her (pretty sure it was as his daughter or maybe grand daughter)... But I could also be misremembering there are a lot of Greek myths (and a lot of versions of them) and it's easy to get them mixed up when it's been years since having read quite a few of them. That all said, if I'm misremembering I'll own that mistake.
@@merusotajio2222 Also I am completely aware that Charybdis is Poseidon's daughter, unless I've lost the ability to read I believe I mentioned there being multiple daughters of Poseidon near each other.
It's beautiful to see the journey from "Odysseus, what an asshole!" to "Man, you gonna do what you gonna do"😂
So during the fight scene with Mutiny - The crew isn't cheering on Eury / Ody. Instead, they are almost begging them not to fight. Like "calm down, we don't need to do this-". This is why after they chant Odysseus, they say "There is no price he won't pay-". They come to the realisation that Eury had at the start of Mutiny.
Which is a bit stupid since they are alive because that came at a price since both the other options means all lives would be lost, but also Odysseus told Eurylochus to stand down but he didn't but this crew has made so many dumb decisions up to this point that I don't expect any of them to think logically
@@anastasija6866 Yeah but whose to say he wouldn't sacrifice the rest of them next time he got the chance (which he did in fact do)
@@cheyannegiles9772after they brought down Zeus’s wrath upon themselves
@@cheyannegiles9772 so instead of potentially not making it they decided disrespecting a god is better so non of them would survive
@@dragonstouch1042honestly can’t blame them. Id rather go out on my own terms too
It’s Ody’s job to protect his people. He betrayed them. Of course they mutinied. But it’s just tragic and frustrating to see the way they IMMEDIATELY mess things up and run back to relying on him.
I mean, both Poseidon and Charibdys would have sunk the whole ship unless they learn to fly they wouldn't avoid the loss of life. The least they could do is not repeat the same mistake that they did in Polyphemus but that seems like to much to ask
His crew betrayed him long before he betrayed them
He did his best against polyphemus, poseidon wouldn't have been an issue if they hadn't betrayed him with the bag of wind, and STILL after that betrayal Odysseus risked his life to save them yet again against circe
@@F.S.S.64 everyone forgets about the role of the winions in this situation lol
@@aadityayanamandra8846 they tempted them, if they respected their captain they would have listened to him but they betrayed his orders
@@F.S.S.64 Unfortunately, Poseidon (if Oddyseus made it to Ithaca and the wind bag didn't open) would have drown the entire kingdom. This can be inferred from a future song
(Spoilers for the context)
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where Poseidon practically tells Oddyseus to drown in the water or he'll drown his kingdom instead. So yeah, the Polyhemus part still fucked up Oddyseus's crew. Not like what they did with the wind-bag was justified, but Poseidon would still have gotten them-- they just would have died on the soil of Ithaca (their home) instead of the ocean or any other place but their home. Hope this makes sense!!!
Odysseus when he spots danger: "Show yourself, I know you're watching me." Eurylochus when he spots danger: "Something approaches." Poseidon (Wet Hades) when he spots danger: "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves! Die!" Casper when he spots danger: Gets hyped LOLLLL
Help- I read Odysseyus' and my brain read the chorus of the frozen 2 song-
Odysseyus: Show yourself! Let me see who you aaaaaarrreee
u @CyrahLia_459 Noooo waaaayyy! I was writing that one and thought nah no one's gonna think of that....
One of my favorite things about the song Scylla is its subtle references to Scylla's mythological backstory, and how those references add depth to its comparison of Odysseus and Scylla.
At the beginning, Scylla sings of betrayal, harbored shame, and broken bonds; all things she experienced when she was transformed by Circe and essentially lost any connection to her old self and life. Observing the situation on the boat, Scylla in that moment relates to Odysseus, recognizing how he too has been betrayed and is feeling ashamed and isolated by his new nature.
Scylla then sings, "Drown in your sorrow and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed 'til you've run out of years", which is a direct reference to her own transformation in the bathing pool when she was turned from nymph into sea monster by Circe. The next lyrics highlight this moment and its consequences as well: "Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you bathe". But they also hint at how Scylla made the choice to willingly embrace her new monstrous self at this pivotal moment, by letting her old self die in that bathing pool and instead accepting who she had become (a wraith without honor or faith).
All this to say, by hearing these hints of Scylla's backstory in the song that she brings up in observation of Odysseus, our conclusions as to how they are "the same" end up being deeper and more nuanced. They're not just abominable beings. We see that both Scylla and Odysseus were unwillingly turned into monsters (Scylla by Circe and Odysseus by Poseidon and his journey), yet both decided to willingly embrace their new natures in order to ensure their own survival.
EDIT: This turned into a giant word salad, my apologies. I've spent so long trying to make it legible, but I've given up at this point, so hopefully you can kind of see what I'm saying ;-;
That’s really cool! Really shows that, while it has its differences, Jorge knows his stuff.
Look I don’t like Eury, but I understand him. He can’t see past his own pessimism, which is why Ody and his unconventional witty schemes was captain. Once Ody became a danger to the crew, the crew (who got the whole ruthlessnessis mercy thing a lot earlier on), turned on him.
I get it. I just wish they didn’t immediately commit suicide by eating those cows. Seems like a waste of a mutiny ya know.
Starvation is a powerful thing unfortunately
Exactly. They saw how he was willing to kill 6 of them to get home, how were they supposed to know which of them would be next?
I love it when people get it.
Odysseus said he would become a monster to “everyone but us” the crew assumed they were part of “us”. Turns out it was just Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus.
@ShyyGaladriel ah the old we don't know who it will be next, might as well be everyone
For what I've heard, it's a lot more understandable in the original story. Zeus had manipulated the winds to keep them stranded on this island for days. Imagine, days spent starving while surronded by cows that you cannot eat. Sure, they knew that killing those cows would invite divine punishement but from their point of view, starvation was worse than any death even the gods could inflict on them. Only Odysseus was urging them to hold on.
In the end, the crew ate the cows while Odysseus was seeking councel from the gods in his sleep.
Odysseus is the captain because he is the reigning king of Ithaca, something everyone seems to forget.
Scylla(Skilla) was a beautiful sea nymph, daughter of Poseidon and Ceto(Keto), but she was loved by a sea god Glaucus, so her jealous rival Circe used magic to transform her into a monster. She doesn't feed on monsters because her mother is the creator of sea monsters. She can only eat humans and creatures of Amphitrite like dolphins and small sharks, the humans because Glaucus was a mortal fishermen so he's now the patron of fishermen, this is a part of the myth that calls back to the Die in the blood where you bathe 'He applied to Circe for means to make Scylla return his love; but Circe, jealous of the fair maiden, threw magic herbs into the well in which Scylla was wont to bathe, and by these herbs the maiden was metamorphosed in such a manner, that the upper part of her body remained that of a woman, while the lower part was changed into the tail of a fish or serpent, surrounded by dogs'
I am so frustrated with this crew. First, all of them are at fault for the bag since no one stopped Eurylochus from opening the bag when Odysseus fell asleep after 9 days, and because of that, not only did they not finally return home but also Odys mom kills herself after seeing them get blown away, because of the bag and their actions in the Cyclops saga every other ships drowns but theirs, and after Odysseus makes the hard decision to sacrifice 6 men's so others can live and you know avoid Poseidon they stage a Mutiny and then decide to spit on all the sacrificed lives up until that point and harmed the sun gods cows repeating the same mistake they did in Polyphemus.
Edit: bit more about Scylla, also I just noticed this means not only did Odysseus and his crew angered both Poseidon and Helios and their respective daughters Scylla and Circe
I’m not 100% sure but I think they refer to Apollo instead of Helios because of the cows since I recall that among the first trickery Hermes did stealing Apollo cows was one of them, plus I don’t remember cows being link in anyway to Helios.
I mean... when you consider it, Odysseus just proved that he values his men's lives less than his goal of getting home. The men cannot trust Odysseus anymore - they've been growing in doubts since he froze on seeing Polites die and stood back while they begged for orders when his spoken plan against Polyphemus failed. He made the hard decision to sacrifice six people's lives so HE could get home. In the fight, "I am not letting you get in *my* way." In the second half of Mutiny "*I* have to get home." Their commander is willing to barter with their lives to save his own, which means they can't trust that he'll have their backs. That's a pretty normal reason for Mutiny. Opening the wind bag WAS a huge mistake, it was the first consequence of their loss of faith in Odysseus for his faltering. RIP everyone's mistakes contributing to a horrible end.
I do wish Epic kept the passage of time that shows why the crew kill Helios' cattle; it's weaker reasoning here compared to the source text.
@Janky03 Yes, Helios did have cows. They are also referred to as oxen. In Book XII of The Odyssey, Odysseus and his men approach Thrinakia, the island where the cattle and sheep precious to Helios are kept and watched over by his daughters, Phaethusa and Lampetia. Helio is referred to as the Titan God of the Sun and Jay has confirmed it is Helios
@@raijade9644 Technically no matter what Odysseus chooses it would end in loss of life because if Scylla didn't see six sacrifices she would just destroy the ship and eat six or more bodies from the destroyed ship, their other choice is Charybdis who would swallow their ship on the other side of Scylla or go some other way and deal with Poseidon who would just sink or crush their ship
@anastasija6866 Oh I see thanks for letting me know
I mean, from Eurylochus’ perspective he had just been taught by Odysseus multiple times (cyclops + circe saga) that they should never give up, should always look out for each other, at EVERY turn Odysseus kept teaching him and the crew that lesson. And at this point, it has probably slowly made an impression that things *can* work out if they take risks.
So yeah, in the first half of Mutiny I can’t really blame him for being mad, when the man who preached “no man gets left behind!” for the entirety of act 1 suddenly does a 180° and uses them as sacrifices. In that moment, Odysseus is (in my opinion) just as much a hypocrite/traitor as Eurylochus has been in the past. That’s the beauty of complex stories and characters
(There’s also the fact that the only reason to face Scylla was to make it back home. If they gave up on home, they could settle down on any random island, even sail back to Circe. Who’s the one who wants home no matter what? Odysseus. And that’s likely why he didn’t warn anyone about Scylla or his plan.)
It’s kinda fun how Odysseus’ and Eurylochus’ character development happened parallel to each other, but into different directions. They literally switched their moral stance with each other for this saga.
That really shows how hard the Underworld Saga changed Odysseus (both of them, really, but only got Ody’s pov). Like, in Circe he was ready to risk it all (despite knowing he had been betrayed, even if he didn’t know by whom specifically), and in the Thunder Saga he is so single minded in his quest to go home that he sees nothing but that, gets so desperate that he sacrifices six men that were by his side for 10+ years. It’s just tragic, and at the end of the day I blame the gods for everything (and Jorge! xD)
Well, it’s going to be fun to see your reaction to the last song next week!
Btw: The sun god is actually Helios. Not Apollo. Helios is where we got the Heliocentric system term from (since our solar system revolves around the sun).
Also fun fact Eurylochus is Oddyseus's brother in law. Which means Oddyseus's sister was also waiting for husband . . . .
They're both sun gods, Helios is an older deity and Apollo is a later one. Worship of Helios faded with time, and his sun god business was folded into Apollo, same with Selene and Artemis. That's why Apollo/Helios and Selene/Artemis are used interchangeably across so many myths.
@hamzafawad9331 yeah, you're right. My bad. I was just thinking about how Helios was the original one and how in the Odyssey they were referring to Helios. But you're right, my bad.
I love how hyped he was at hearing the danger is nearby motif LMAOOO it's so me fr! I can't wait for the video!!
it truly feels like casper's blindly navigating through EPIC without mortius to guide him ngl 😂
At first it was Wet Hades and then we got Posiren. Ladies, gentlemen and everyone else, I am proud to tell you that a new member has been added. Everyone say hello to Euryscylla (Eurylla?)!
Edit: Pretty sure Helios is a sun titan, not a god, Apollo is the sun god. What's weird is that they claim that it's the sun god's cows (a.i. Apollo's) even though they are owned by Helios in the original myth.
Didn't J confirm it is Helios, not Apollo?
Apollo didn't yet become the main sun god, he was however an olympian god of light, plague, prophecy etc., they also use the daughter of Helios version of Circe
There’s also Scylren (mistaking Scylla for the sirens)
Helios is called the Sun God in the Odyssey!
@@raijade9644 oh! Ok, thank you!
Don't be so hard on yourself for not catching all the details on your first listen! ...I once commented that Odysseus should have traded shifts with Eurylochus over the wind bag. We've all said stupid things :)
I don't know how but Casper simultaneously manages to be a prophet but in the stupidest way possible??? does that make sense?? like he will make a guess about one thing and the next he'll guess something that happens later that he should have no idea about yet 😭
He guess not obvious things correctly but the most obvious things incorrectly
apollo's curse of prophecy but he missed casper and only grazed his shoulder or smth 😂
Are his prophetic powers truly a curse? He has brought us so many unforgettable things (Wet Hades, Poseidon becoming a siren, Scyllychus, etc…)
He was granted the ability to see the future but only sometimes and at the cost of not being able to remember details from the past.
5:09 I'm guessing Scylla (lurking and observing) has an inner monologue about comparing Ody/or a nameless captain of a random ship with herself for she assumes him to take this route knowing what comes next. That he would willingly sacrifice 6 other people to make it thorough her lair.
And with the "Hello" she was actually talking to them out loud.
Meanwhile Ody and Eury have an actual conversation... and things are happening
I like to think with the "You relied on wit, and then we died on it" line, Odysseus is starting to hallucinate from the blood loss and sees the faces of his crew that died looking down at him before he passes out. Maybe he even sees Polites, looking so sad at the monster his friend became.
"Deep down we're only... Polites." Oh Casper, please keep being that optimistic about humanity. We need more Polites in this world.
scylla is actually singing about odysseus...if you relisten to it then you understand that from the start she is singing about odysseus but the lines about betrayl match with Eurylochus's confession so we all at first think that she's talking about him but it's odysseus!!!!!! the end just justifies it and all the lines too as ody knew he had to sacrifice 6 men in order to get past scylla right away after sirens told him it's the only way so it's ODYSSEUS who is betraying everyone in a way
Yesss, it’s such a good bait and switch.
Yeah she's saying she and Odysseus are the same since the beginning
Mortius like super afraid of Eruy or anyone dying.
Casper badly wishing for Eurylochus to disappear 😂😅
Both of your reactions are the best 💙💙👌🏻
I love that you want 6 heads just to harmonise with yourself in Acapella😅😂
(Copy pasting my comment from Mortius’ vid cuz I’m so used to the dual reactions atp)
Eury and Ody have made VERY stupid mistakes (and it’s funny to me how some ppl get on you two’s case for calling Ody dumb before cause of stuff like the self-doxxing against the Goddess of Wisdom’s wishes), they’re both human and have been worn down beyond belief. But Ody making Eury light 6 torches to unknowingly mark 6 of his friends for death after he was guilt ridden over the bag was the first nearly malicious act- especially cause it seems like Eury was meant to die too. It’s heartwarming that they still cared for each other after the fight. Eurylochus calling him “Ody” and losing hope saying they weren’t gonna make it home was so sad tho, honestly everyone deserved better. Ik he’s controversial as a character but Eury is my personal fav :)
Odysseus and Eurylochus are my top 2 characters in this musical, and I 100% agree lol. Ultimately, I just think it's nice that they could KIND OF remain brothers before the crew was killed.
So refreshing, because they're both dum-dums, but I like them equally as well. The Odysseus vs Eurylochus wars go crazy.
Thooooo, if I had to pick a side. ~How are we supposed to trust you now?~ 😎
SAME, EURYLOCHUS IS MY FAV TOO and his voice is so good man, the worst part was that Odysseus was my fav and Eurylochus too so the fight even tho i knew it was coming was painful
Oh yeah, Eury was definitely meant to get eaten. I think it’s more than just the betrayal. In Luck Runs Out, Odysseus warn Eury to comply with his orders or they’d all die, and Eury deliberately disobeyed him. Odysseus realized Eury was always going to second guess and undermine him and he needed to get out of the way
@@dragonstouch1042 tbh this kind of strengthens the crew's position on the matter. "This guy is a bad second-in-command, let's KILL him" isn't a sane way to go about things.
I cannot believe he missed the most obvious danger motif when Eurylochus draws his sword on Odysseus
nooooo, I haven't gotten there and I was banking he'd hear it there
He calls out the background choir in Scylla and after the motif plays in mutiny as the danger motif, which I don’t think they are 😂
Scylla's dialogue/lyrics actually reflect her own mythological backstory of being turned by Circe while she was in the bathing pool. Her initial transformation is traumatically forced upon her, ripping away her old life and physically destroying her body: "Drown in your sorrow and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed til you've run out of years". But in that bathing pool, after transforming, she willingly accepts and embraces her new identity as a monster, killing that old part of herself that was human: "Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you *bathe* / We must do what it takes to survive". She sees her own story in Odysseus: someone forcibly transformed into a monster who ultimately embraces that role. I just think it's cool that her lyrics aren't just like meant to intimidate the men, but hold meaning for her own story.
Scylla has 7 heads (one human 6 serpent) so i figured she was her own chorus, no godliness needed
Until her mouths are full.
* Coughs in PROPHET * The editing on this video was top notch I could not stop rewinding here and there just to laugh some more!
"I can't defend past Casper anymore" LOL
11:06 the way I screamed "THEY'RE NOT FRATERNIZING CASPER-"
I’m not gonna lie to you Casper. I have watched every episode with you and Mortius and I know you love Polites, but from an objective storytelling perspective, Eurylochus is a far better and more sympathetic character. I love Polites, don’t get me wrong. He is one of my favorite characters ever. But Eurylochus is in many songs, when Polites barely has any, first pleading with Odysseus to be careful when Odysseus was often reckless in Luck Runs Out, then wanting to abandon his crew in Puppeteer and then, after Odysseus shows him that all their men are worth saving, Eurylochus tells Odysseus what Odysseus once told him, to value the lives of every crew member. Throughout, acting as a perfect foil for each part of Odysseus’ character arcs, Eurylochus evokes far more thought and respect than Polites ever did, bless his heart. As sad as the thud and “Captain…” of Polites’ final moments, Eurylochus’ pleading and hopelessness from hunger, exhaustion and distrust acts as far more of a tragic moment instead of just a shocking one. It’s not subjective. It’s literary science that Eurylochus is a better character.
I’m getting a torch for this, aren’t I?
@@DrakeDragonton Don't worry technically if we boil down to small choices the reason there are in this situation is because Polites listened to the Lotus Eaters, Odysseus wanted to leave
@@anastasija6866 Facts!
This fanbase should ABSOLUTELY use “I’m getting a torch for this” for hot takes! That’s so clever!!
@@claran3616 Yeah I saw some people on the subreddit doing that and thought it was hilarious
22:18 casper slowly realizing and lifting his head will never be less funny
I just realized with the motifs, eurylicus kind of went by a mini odyseus journey. Forgive me (infant & wind bag), full speed ahead, fight with a monster (cyclops & scylla), emotional stupid action and loss (reveal of name and my goodbye & mutiny), home of the wind/sun god and luck runs out, a fast "full speed ahead" into danger to end with a god coming in retribution
I know people have been arguing about this since the song dropped, but my personal opinion is that Odysseus, as a leader and a king, has a responsibility to get as many men home as he possibly can. He left Ithaca for war, and logically speaking, he should have lost at least 10% of his men. That's 60 who SHOULD have died, but due to his leadership and wit, all 600 survived for 10 years. That's truly impressive. Now he's trying to get 43 home, but the only way requires 6 to die. He lit the torches so ONLY 6 would become targets. Easily, the whole crew could have become snacks. He got them through a creature so terrifying, Poseidon himself refuses to go near. Imagine being faced with something THAT dangerous, and using guile to kept the bloodshed to the barest minimum possible.
He should have lost 60 men in war. He instead sacrificed 6 to save the rest.
He's a king, a leader, focused on the bigger picture, even when all options are crappy. That's the brutal reality of leadership.
Eurylochus is commonborn, a follower, he sees what's in front of him, be it men on a ship or a cow and his own hunger.
Eurylochus has only ever in his life been tangentially responsible for 600 men, while Odysseus is a king to an entire island with thousands of subjects dependent on him.
Eurylochus has also proved himself to be completely ignorant of divine beings. Ody knew what he was up against and what "Scylla's price" was. The rest obviously didn't know. Hell, they didn't even know about the sacred cows. There's something to be said about keeping your men ignorant in the face of grave danger, and this happens all the time in warfare. If you let the men in the trenches know just how many it's gonna be, they won't follow orders. His crew has already REPEATEDLY proved to be unwilling to obey him... ESPECIALLY Eurylochus. No one would have held a torch, they would have crashed into the rocks or taken too long in the lair, and they all would have perished.
So yes, Ody sacrificed 6 men, because he wanted to get as many men through alive as possible. Sacrifice 6 to save 37. "Needs of the many" and all that. If he didn't care about saving as many as possible, he would not have even lit the torches to begin with.
Spoiler: that all changed after they mutiny against him and he's faced with Zeus' choice. That action was more than just a mutiny against a captain... it was treason against the king, punishable by death. If he had sacrificed himself and the rest made it home, what's to stop Eurylochus from killing his wife and kid and using his marriage to Odysseus' sister to place himself on the throne? Really, screw them after that. They'd have been executed anyway. Zeus just did the dirty work for him.
@@rhov-anion And don't forget everyone but Odysseus ate the cows, there was a chance even if he left them to live they would still be punished later on by Helios or by Poseidon, this is really just Zeus being an ass and making Odysseus have more lives on his conscious
To quote what eury said “you want all the power, you carry all the blame” eury took the title of captain from him, killed the cows after being warned by ody, im on ody’s side with that choice, they did it, they suffer the price, eury wants the power, he can carry the blame…
It's crazy because in "Luck Run's Out," Odysseus pulls Eurylochus away from the view of the crew to ask 3 things of him (He could have commanded him). AND Eurylochus breaks all 3. Odysseus asked him not to sow seeds of doubt in the crew, to not disagree on any route he picks, and to always be devote! In "Mutiny" he does all 3! With Eurylochus' final action being killing one of the Sun God's cows rather than praying to Him for help or doing something for Him like Odysseus does for Aeolus.
Don't worry about getting Apollo and Helios mixed up both were Sun Gods in Greek Mythology.
To simplify it heavily Helios was the original Sun God of Greek Mythology. Apollo was incorporated very late into the Greek Mythos and while he did play a part in the Iliad set before the Odyssey, he was considered at the time just the God of Prophecy, Music, and Archery
One thing that I like (and in my personal opinion) is that Scylla is not talking about Eurylochus when she says “You hide a reason for shame”, she’s talking about Odysseus and how he’s going to sacrifice his men to get home, Scylla is only singing about Odysseus and he knows this, I might be wrong in this but I like to interpret it this way
On a more serious note, I wonder whether Eurylochos after the mutiny has an actual suicidal impulse when he kills the cow... he's broken with his best friend and it's obviously been heart-breaking for him still ("Ody..."), he believes they'll never get home, and it's all a bit pointless there... There's just something about the lyrics and the voice that make me wonder whether he's looking for something (or someone) to end the whole nightmare?
to my knowledge in the og story, he knows what will happen upon killing the cow, but doesn't care. Too hungry, too defeated
(anyone pls correct me if I'm wrong)
@@esthergregorovich9669 that’s what it seems like to me.
Honestly Eury’s been looking through a hopeless/depressed perspective the whole musical. Every time things get hard, he turns to Ody and says, let’s give up. He didn’t want to talk to Aeolus, he opened the bag and when told to close it said “sir it’s too late”. When the men got turned to pigs he wanted to run. He just can’t see the hope or the unconventional option. He’s always been bringing Ody back to earth by trying to be the sensible one. Now that Ody isn’t hopeful, or saving everyone with some miraculous deus ex machine, how is Eury supposed to be hopeful?
Eury gives up. It’s more important to him that he dies with a full stomach than survives in pain any longer.
@Cheyenne Oliver in the livestream chat:
So Poseidon is Hades, the Sirens are Poseidon and Scylla is the Sirens
😂😂😂👌🏻💙
I'm dead😂
Why is this comment so underrated
And scylla’s va is apparently Eurylochus😂😂😂
@@HistorianOfVaelris Yeah it is a whole adventure with Casper. And we're here for it😂👌🏻💙💙
Odysseus is also Jesus, remember how they asked why doesn't he just walk home
It’s also in Mutiny, let’s see if he spots it
Strangely a lot of people have missed the one in mutiny even though it's probably the most obvious one.
@@KoriTheAnderNot even close. The most obvious ones are in The Horse and the Infant and Warrior of the Mind
He made some more obvious in the remakes
@@DarkestNova556 I'm talking about in thunder saga
@@DarkestNova556 Ruthlessness and Underworld also have really obvious ones
30:31 "these cows were immortal"
That means they won't die naturally
@@Bungungusof old age*
Immortal does not necessarily mean invincible
@PencilKing21 Yep, kinda like immortal jellyfish or the hunters of artemis
But in greek mythology, they're actually invulnerable, in the original Odyssey, when they're EATING the cows, the bones and meat keep moving
Eurylochous sure messed up but. His capitan, the one person who always was so smart and tried to get them ALL home, who didn't lose a single man in Trojan War and dared to try and save them even from Circe - he was their kind and capitan and they DID believe in him, especially AFTER Circe where he proved he still cares and is still capable. You know, the blunder in Cyclops' Saga, the first EVER loss of men in this whole voyage, it did make them doubtful but after he proved himself anew, they and Eurylochous especially, for sure felt so guilty that they ever doubted - that's why he confessed, after all. So Odysseus choosing that moment for DELIBERATE sacrafice of his men - he does lose it because it's no longer a mistake or lack od luck that gets them killed - it's Odysseus' choice. How Are They Supposed To Trust Him Now?
When it comes to Eurylychous' choice when killing cows - god, that's SO juicy! Maybe it's Zeus' influence and manipulation, maybe it's him realizing that they can't get home and so they might as well satisfy their hunger - maybe it is a suicide attempt caused by grief loss of hope of ever getting home. Maybe it's him choosing death instead of uncertainty of their future voyage. So many interprtations so there are so many options, it feels like a waste to reduce it just to him being stupid.
In the end, I would say that it's not fair to judge Eurylochous based only on his mistakes, just like it wouldn't be fair to judge Odysseus only on his. Neither of this charactes is fully right or wrong, they are just tired and stressed and painfully human, playthings in the hands of gods...
"please don't tell me you're about to do what I think to do" was originally said by Eurylochus in lucks runs out 29:02
I love everything about the siren in this song!
Knowing that she's a sacrifice for Scylla and tempting Eurylacus (and possibly some others) into painting a target on his back.
Reassuring Odysseus that this is a good and necessary choice.
And then to use her powers to spur on the crew as they flee!
It's just absolutely beautiful and I love it!
22:18 Just that slow realization is beautiful. That is a face that screams, “Ohhhhhhhh, fuuuuuuuck.” 😂
Scylla itches my brain so hard that I break out In goosebumps every time I listen with headphones. I can’t even describe. It’s actually sickening.
Here's a funny little count:
Ody begins with 600 Men under his command.
Polyphemus killed 15, counting Polites and the rest of the sounds of the club in "Survive", leaving Ody with 585 Men.
Then, Poseidon kills 542 Men in "Ruthlessness", leaving him with 43 Men.
Then, Elpenor gets drunk on Circe's palace roof and falls to his death, leaving Ody with 42 Men.
And in "Scylla", Ody sacrifices 6 men so she's too busy chewing to kill the rest...
So now, counting Eurylochus and Perimedes, Ody has 36 Men left before "Thunder Bringer"!
Or at least, he did before Eurylochus signed their death sentence before killing Helios' cow. :)
Can't blame you for thinking Helios was Apollo. After Helios was forgotten, Apollo took over as God of the Sun, but in the time of the Odyssey, he was still in charge.
EDIT: So here's a funny thing - since making this Comment, Jay dropped a snippet of a Cut Song, which states "528 Men"... Since it was before Circe, I believe this means Polyphemus actually killed 72 MEN before they got to "Ruthlessness".
So yeah. A bit more than 15, as it turns out, which means Poseidon only killed 485 Men, leaving only 43...
Where did you get 15 for polyphemus?
@@NightFury11818 Like I said, the sounds of the Club smashing, assuming every sound was one more person.
@@RenatoGPadilla was it stated that each thud was a kill? He could just as easily have missed a few swings
@@NightFury11818 So here's a funny thing: since making this Comment, Jay dropped a snippet of a Cut Song, which states "528 Men"... Since it was before Circe, I believe this means Polyphemus actually killed 72 MEN before they got to "Ruthlessness".
So yeah. A bit more than 15, as it turns out, which means Poseidon only killed 485 Men, leaving only 43...
Man, your reaction upon seeing Scylla's depiction was perfection. XD
(Fun (?) fact: In the original material, across from Scylla was a monster called Charybdis. Circe advised Odysseus to sail closer to Scylla even at the cost of 6 men, otherwise not even Zeus himself would be able to save them from Charybdis (yes, she was that much worse). So he chose the lesser of two evils. And, to this day, the Greek equivalent of 'Caught between a rock and a hard place' is 'Caught between Scylla and Charybdis'. )
Animatics do help a lot 😂
I thought Eurylochus's lines on Helios's island used a slowed version of the Survive motif but omg thats just the same motif- augh-
I think the biggest motivator for Mutiny is that Ody didn't bother to tell anyone. He tricked them and expected them to either never figure it out or just be cool with it. Like for example if he told everyone what was going on and asked them to draw lots to see who holds the torches, I don't think they would have rebelled in this version of the story. It was his job to spend the lives of his men for the greater good and get as many home as possible. However if you notice whenever Ody talks about getting home it stops being "We" and becomes "I" to show his shift in priority after the Underworld Saga. Not that any of this writes Eury off, he fucked up and tries to make up for it and his moment of trying to trust his captain got turned on it's head. Don't get me wrong, he's not the brightest bulb in the drawer but Ody is and his mistrust and drive to get home no matter the cost turned everyone against him.
Okay, but is anyone else hearing "pork chop" for the choir in 'Mutiny'? Because I cannot unhear it and it sounds like they are singing it TWICE.
It's not even pork, it's beef!
Fun fact: Scyllas lines that she sings to Odysseus mirror her own backstory - "give up your honor and faith/live your life as a wraith/die in the blood where you bathe/we must do what it takes to survive". Scylla was the lover of a water god Glaucus. A jealous Circe (in some versions Amphitrite) betrays Scylla and poisons the water she bathes in, which turns her into a monster.
This just came to me, since everyone had wax in their ears when the sirens sang, and Odysseus lip read the important information the siren said, when Odysseus asked how to avoid Poseidon, the sirens said, you have to go where “he would never go ”, “where he’s scared to roam”, and Eurylochus asks why they didn't fight Scylla, but just run away.
So if Poseidon never goes there, and is scared to roam there, what will ordinary humans do to Scylla but run away.
@PetarSon He doesn't go there out of guilt more than fear since both of his daughters are there and cursed, and he can't help them, of course ody doesn't know that
@@anastasija6866 Well, it is enough for Odysseus to know that for some reason Poseidon avoids going there.
The duality of Casper is predicting the name of the 4th song while simultaneously absolutely committing to mixing up the names of the actors playing Eurylocus and Scylla. And that's why I come to this channel
26:20 Jorge saidr that the electric guitar ( _Odysseus'_ instument when he's being cunning) is backing up _Eurylochus_ as Eury is trying to Ody's position as captain.
The danger motif happens twice in mutiny. First during the start of Ody and Eury's fight after Eury says "you have forced my hand" it's a high pitched violin (or cello??). Then of course, the danger motif happens again at the end after they kill the cow.
13:21 I've listened to this song multiple times since it came out but this is the first time I've heard the men screaming in the background or well the six screams from the men Scylla killed they get drowned out by the drum noises if you don't listen
My interpretation of Eurylochus' motives is pretty grim. Basically, he's lost all hope of ever getting home, now. They're still far away, there's a little over thirty left of them, they don't have food, and can't trust their captain and leader to think in their best interest, he just literally used six of their friends - of twelve years - as monster bait. Eurylochus and the rest of the crew are starving, and since they're dying anyway, which one is most likely to at least be faster, dying by divine retribution, or slowly starving at sea? So killing a god's cow would feed him and the others, and afterwards, their end will be fast and not lingering.
20:20 the fact that you caught that Eury’s line being the same melody’s as Zeus’ in horse and the infant is pretty incredible
Hope you're feeling better!!
Edit:
Odysseus in Suffering: "But Scylla has a cost" (6 men)
Yo! I just realized something I haven’t seen in comments yet!
Ody is stabbed in the back by one of his men, remember all the way back to the Horse and the Infant, Ody has a vision of being stabbed in the back and what is said next?? Zeus comes in and says “A vision, OF WHAT IS TO COME. Cannot be outrun.” And before that when he was stabbed and he asks “who was that?” Because he never saw who it was, meaning he didn’t know he would be betrayed! Even all the way back to the very first song we were told about this happening!!!
I don't know if you noticed this, but there was another appearance of the danger motif that i don't think you noticed due to focusing on the guitar. When Eurylochus draws his sword at the beginning of Mutiny, the strings in the background of the guitar play the danger motif
Why is that pic of Euryscylla so hilarious
And “I pulled a Mortius” lmao
Actually, Apollo is also the sungod. Helios was the original titan of the sun, however, the romans started worshipping Apollo as a god of the sun, therefore effectively making it his domain too. There's also a myth about Apollo having holy cattle in the origin myth of hermes. Idk if the Odysee actually specifies deity but it could go both ways in Epic.
So near the end of the civilization we call Ancient Greece, Apollo had all but supplanted Helios as a sun god (though he was, to begin with, mostly a god of light/civilization/society). The romans basically just chose not to assimilate Helios, leaving him exclusively as a greek god.
And yeah, both in EPIC and the Odyssey, the sun god mentioned is Helios.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 thanks for the info ! I just remembered that SPOILERS
In a snippet of god games Athena has to convince Apollo among others, so I thought that could be related but if it's originally Helios, that's probably who Jorge uses.
@Al_-cf1dj Technically in thunder bringer because Odysseus was incapacitated he didn't participate in the hurting of the cows and in the original myth he was the only one not to eat them so Helios has no reason to go after him, Apollo is an olympian who sided with troy, Zeus could have chosen him for the Troy reason and/or because he was on the olympian council
@@anastasija6866 yeah, I'm trying to remember if Odysseus violated one of Apollo's bagillion domains but I think being on the side that murdered his priests(?) and killed a bunch of people he liked, in a city he was the patron of (while also destroying it and being indirectly responsible for the war starting in the first place , what with making all the suitors swear to protect Helen), helped build and had a son in.... yeah, he's not gonna be happy with Ody at ALL.
@Al_-cf1dj Yeah, his side, especially Agamemnon, made an enemy of Apollo and then I can't really fault him for the start of the war, he made them swear a pact as a favour to Helenas dad so he could stop them fight and inciting a war and so that he gets Penelope, he couldn't have really foresaw Eris throwing the apple and the goddesses making Paris choose, but Hectors son also happened.
What I can't remember is why Hephaestus, yeah, he's an Olympian he doesn't really have a stake in it, Artemis would have been harder to convince
20:23 to be fair, helios is syncronized into apollo in some myths, which is why apollo is also sometimes depicted with a herd of sacred cows, we don't have any of the lyrics for apollo's section in a future song but we know he's in it, and there's no implication helios will show up at all in the musical, so it's possible jorge will just classify apollo as the god of the sun for the sake of simplicity
Casper you are so funny and was in full prophet mode in this video I love it! lol
Thanks for doing this and sharing your reaction with us, especially when you were filming it while sick. You brought me and my 2 friends who I dragged in to watch this at lunch break much, much joy!
Two things! One: I love how Odysseus tells Eurlychus to light sing torches but never tells him to distribute them like we all assume he did. I love it cause it makes my mind wonder if he only meant for Eury to die.
Two: Is it me or does the singer for Scylla sound like TH-camr cover artist AnnaPantsu?
I mean, what else is Eurylichus supposed to do? Hold six torches? He for sure meant for Eury to distribute them to other men, especially considering the official animatics
@@Al_-cf1dj That’s fair. I haven’t seen the official animatics.
The mental image of Eurylochus standing there, just holding six torches in his arms, trying not to drop them, makes me giggle 😂
oh my gosh yes!! i’ve always knew something about her voice was familiar!
@juliannagoodwin2875 In the live stream animatic, he has his back turned, so he doesn't know who got torches. He only turns when Scylla begins he assault by saying Hello
I dont blame anyone for getting Lord Apollo and Lord Helios mixed up on the "Home of the Sun God" front. Cuz technically speaking, Helios isn't the God of the sun- he is the sun. Like, the literally embodiment of the literally sun. Lord Apollo is the Sun God (its one of his titles) so the only way you'll really know whos who in the song (cuz of the lack of clarification) is if you know about the immortal cows of Helios thing or if you've already read the Odyssey.
@salswisteria But Helios is called the Titan God of the sun, Apollo gained the title of God of the sun later in myths. Right now, he is only connected to Light not Sunlight yet but he is an olympian
In some myths Helios gave his role of the sun to Apollo
HI CASPER, Sorry, this comment has nothing to do with the thunder saga, BUT I'll get straight to the point cause I found this very interesting. So in the first song (The horse and the Infant) when Zeus and Odysseus are having the back to back conversation over the child (RIP the Yeet baby) They are actually having a sort of call and response. In the animatic (Credits to the God of animatics, Gigi), when the angle is spinning around, Odysseus is trying to list the ways to try and not end the childs life. (The lyrics saying "I could raise him as my own," "or send him far away from home." "Make sure his past is never known.") But ZEUS is responding to Odysseus by saying the ways that the child would always come back to leave blood of Odysseus hands. (Responding with, "He will burn your house down," "He will find you whenever," and "The GODS will make him know.""). Also, i dont know if this is correct. This is just what I'm hearing. So please dont come after me 🙏🏻
Sorry about this rant of mine. This is just what I wanted to say after listening back to the first Saga. Also, Casper, if you see this, I LOVE your content, and im new to your channel. I hope that you are enjoying Epic! Much love ❤️
Ngl THIS is why I feel Mutiny is first best experienced without visuals. The stab is so damn good and suspenseful.
EurScyllius killed me lmao. The picture was perfect
I am so. Sad I will not be seeing (Both/OAR*) reactions as you both go live But deep down I already knew that. :) YIPPIE SOMETHING TO look forward to!
While lighting 6 torches was necessary for the good of the crew, having eurycus had them out and hold one of them means it would get rid of Eury himself AND any of he’s trusted crew mates, as he’d definitely give the “most important” jobs to he’s closest friends. If Eruy didn’t pass off his torch like in the animatic mutiny would never happen cuz…there would be no one left to question or stand up to ody.
Coincidentally ody is also proving what Athena saw in him with this move, he’s using the crew like chess pieces and being the strategist savant Athena expected and knew him to be
About "how the cow is still mooing"
He says those cows are immortal, and ody does not say eurylecus killed one. He just says he made them angry.
So I picture the cow, with a massive cut on its neck, ichor dripping down, still standing and turning its glare at Eurylecus
"those WERE immortal" suggests other wise.
Biological immortality describes a cell or organism not being able age rather than just being straight up indestructible.
In the original story he also just kills them.
Like the image tho
Lol. Immortal doesn’t mean invulnerable. Immortal just means they live forever if they AREN’T MURDERATED. (Ask any decapitated or staked or burned vampire… I’m sure they can… oh wait 😈😏)
And he asks the question like there is ONLY one cow… BUT cows are in herds right? That could be a totally different cow mooing in horrified grief and morning for its friend or just fear and upset for its own survival seeing its buddy murdered.
Just a short little defence of Eurylochus.
Eurylochus was the second in command. It's quite literally his job to question Odysseus. King or not, the second in command is meant to question the captain, to provide a second opinion. Not to blindly follow his orders, that's what the soldiers are meant to do.
Eurylochus has so far, presented reasonable objections.
On the lotus eater island, he provides a counter point to simply hoping that whoever on the island is friendly. Better safe than sorry, we don't want to lose our captain.
With the wind god, the whole Trojan war has been nothing but the Gods messing with mortals. He's right to be sceptical when this 10 year war has dragged on because everytime one side got close to winning, a God would swoop in shift the balance. Not to mention the whole war started because the gods were petty and vain.
Him opening the wind bag is his mistake, but he immediately realizes it. He immediately helps Odysseus close it, and tries to own up to the mistake on Circe's island. Plus, in ancient Greece wars usually resulted in the winning side returning home with gold and treasure. The Trojan war had none of that, as the Greeks fled immediately after sacking Troy. Plus Odysseus not so discretely telling Eurylochus to "Shut up and don't question me" would give him reason to doubt Odysseus when he says that a literal storm is in a bag. Again, Eurylochus made a mistake, and he knows that. But it's not like he just did it without reason.
This is the biggest one. On Circe's island Eurylochus is completely in the right. The men turned pigs, not only walked right into their own fates, but were also as good as dead. Circe is a powerful sorceress and Odysseus would not have been able to beat her without Hermes' help. Eurylochus is saying "don't get yourself killed over men who are basically dead" and Odysseus says "Yeah no" and it only works out cuz Hermes happened to be passing by.
But the thing is. All these scenarios have taught Eurylochus that Odysseus is a braver and more selfless man than he is. That Odysseus is willing to look at an impossible task and say. "I'll figure it out." Not only that, but that Odysseus's number 1 priority is getting his crew home safely. Now with Scylla, that's changed. Odysseus didn't scheme to sneak past her. Odysseus didn't say. "hey, six of us are gonna have to die here, lets figure it out." He just went along with it. That's perfect reason for any captain to be forcibly removed from command.
Now add onto it that, canonically, Odysseus gave the torches to Eurylochus. Making Eurylochus decide who gets to die. PLUS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO GOT A TORCH WAS EURYLOCHUS. All of this, constantly having his input ignored, having a captain who's getting more selfish by the second and nearly dying, the mutiny was bound to happen.
Now the cows? Again, Eurylochus made a mistake. But as he says, he legit doesn't think they'll get home. He knows that, sooner or later, he'll join Polites. Add onto that, the fact he's starving and that seriously messes with your logical thinking, it's not like he had much choice.
TLDR: Eurylochus is the voice of reason in a world without reason. He warns about reality, but forgets that Odysseus is the main character. Then when Odysseus realizes his crew are background characters at best, Eurylochus stands up for them. Then he realizes that the story is hopeless and would rather die having had the best goddamn steak there is, than starving in the jaws of some new monster.
My favorite part of Mutiny is that it's a complete role reversal of Luck Runs Out. In the latter, Odysseus wants to do something reckless (bargain with Aeolus) on the island of the wind god. Eurylochus is opposed to this, warning Ody that the gods aren't trustworthy. In the former, Eurylochus wants to do something reckless (kill the sacred cow) on the island of the sun god. Odysseus is opposed to this, warning Eurylochus that Helios be angered. You can even hear the similarities between "This is the home of the wind god!" and "This is the home of the sun god!"
P.S. I love the Pikachu outfit for the Thunder saga :D
Well at least now I can say I will never forget that Armando Julian voices eurylochus so thanks for that Casper😂
the eurylicus scylla killed me 😭 beautiful
Thank you so much for the video! I adore The Thunder saga as a while and these two songs specifically so much, it not only sounds amazing, but is such an interesting story and character exploration (specifically Odysseus). I really enjoyed the reaction:D
This is such a random ahh moment for someone not into Epic yet lmao (credits to eyymenalsabahi)
DID U WATCH THIS WITHOUT CONTEXT LMFAO
@@CFEntertains I do know what happens but it's a weird thing for someone else who just came into the fandom lol
It’s very understandable to mix up Helio and Apollo. Apollo is associated with the sun a lot, especially in his later Roman version. (And his twin sister Artemis is often linked to the moon, so there’s a lot of double-symbolism.) In some versions of the mythos, Helio retired from being the sun god and passed the role onto Apollo. It also makes a bit more sense why Zeus would show up if the sun god mentioned was Apollo; Zeus is Apollo’s father, but Zeus is Helio’s nephew, if I remember correctly. (Either way, the sun god is too busy steering the sun across the sky, so Zeus goes instead.) Also, both Helio and Apollo have cows! In the Odyssey, Eurylochus and the men sacrifice one of Helio’s gold cows to Zeus to try and get the wind blowing again, even though the prophet specifically told Odysseus not to touch those cows. And Apollo’s cows appear in the story of Hermes’ birth, where literal baby Hermes forces the other gods to recognize him as a fellow god - and forces Zeus to admit that Hermes is his son - by stealing Apollo’s cows.
I love how Eurylochus drops the formalities and calls him Odey when desperate and out of his mind with hunger. He's fallen back to a younger self where Odyseus was his friend not his king and captain. Then, when he comes to his senses, he calls Odyseus Captain then falls back yo following orders
7:45 Eurylla and Scyllouchus
What’s interesting is eury would’ve done the same like he did on circe island. So when he points out how Odysseus went back for everyone before, it probably frustrates him
Whenever I hear those background chants near the end of Mutiny I swear they're saying "How now brown cow."
And to answer how the cow is still moving after getting its head chopped off Ody says they're immortal.
Casper sweetie we love you but the sirens ain’t there it’s only Scylla 😂 and he was talking to Odysseus not the sirens 😂