Pretty sure Worldfire is banned because there is a precident for banning cards that make game actions pointless. Scharazhad, Worldfire, etc. Those cards say "Ignore the whole game that just happened" and that's not fun.
@@FlameMage2 It's that Ugin doesn't "restart" the game, just puts your opponents massively behind, a la Cyclonic Rift. Sure, it's extremely powerful if it resolves, but it doesn't create a physical subgame like Worldfire or Shahrazad.
Was about to say the same thing. Worldfire is just not a fun card. Single card that says "everything that happened before this doesn't matter" is just not fun.
@@DavyMcWavy yeah its pretty inconsistent on the RC's part. You have lots of what are essentially Worldfire effects like Jokelhaups and Decree of Annihilation but aren't banned, but Sway of the Stars and Worldfire are...
"A lot of people will put Vorinclex or Iona into their decks not realizing..." No. Nobody puts these cards into their decks without realizing their impact on play, they put them in specifically for that impact. Ditto for every other part of the Praetor cycle. Interact, play through it, or otherwise learn to dodge it. You want a powerful card? Look at Solemnity, a card that can drive multiple engines concurrently, and breaking it only slows most of those engines down until they can otherwise recover. Also, cascade is a cast trigger... You don't need to resolve the Apex Devastator for maximum effect, you just need to cast it with sufficient deck-ordering manipulation, and by "sufficient" I really mean "any."
@@cryosen This has been my biggest gripe with the ban list and the verbiage the RC uses surrounding it. They make it sound like they're protecting players from themselves by banning cards, because naive players will think that those cards will be fun, but the RC knows better and recognizes the un-fun of those cards, so they'll just put them on the list and that way you won't accidentally play with a card that isn't fun.
The problem with smothering tithe is that it's too splashable. If it had double or triple white pips for the CMC, it wouldn't be so high up on this list and would just be a solid white card.
@@Habeev07 If you want to learn the more esoteric parts of the game, try running an Esper (Blue/Black/White) deck. It is easily one of the most versatile color combinations possible, if not THE most versatile. In the hands of an inspired expert, Esper decks are flat-out cruel to play against.
There’s just an imbalance of what is and isn’t able to be discussed under rule 0. A lot more people are ready and able to say “ NO MLD”. Meanwhile no one likes talking about Telling the Simic and green players to stop playing their Land matter decks. Its lead to the majority of players dead set believing that commander is nothing but ramp and card draw and no one wants to take responsibility for it because no one wants to be “THAT” guy.
The way to punish a ramp deck with strong endgame is attacking them down before they gain full power. I think a big part of the problem is that attacking is often discouraged in many commander games. I'm trying to introduce my playgroups to rushing down Blue and Green players while they're still vulnerable. I attack myself and encourage attacks by pointing out the best endgame deck. I try to negotiate the other players to not attack each other for a turn cycle so they don't feel the need to leave blockers back and can go full swing with their creatures instead. When I play the Blue/Green deck myself, I point out that I'm very likely mop them if I get to my endgame and that they should try to consider that in their threat assessment. Has anyone else tried starting a conversation and from what angle?
@@selkokieli843 what pods do you play in that only have 1 person playing some kind of green ramp strategy? Try to beat me off the table when I am on sultai or bant lists and it probably wont even matter. If I combo off at 10 life I still win.
@@kevinj4002 If you're the only deck without UG you're propably just doomed. Would you try talking with your playgroup to find a balanced pod that's interesting to play for everyone? I'm interested in the starting a conversation part.
@@selkokieli843 each of the guys in my playgroup has at least 3 commander decks, so we typically discuss the power levels before games and try to pick balanced matchups and since we usually play 3 games on fridays we have more than 1 "type" of game when we get together to play. For example I will ask to play casual decks so I can run my Lathliss dragon tribal (never will ever win a game but the flavor is on point lol) or I will ask to play our most powerful decks when I want to run Chulane. We are all friends so noone wants to pubstomp each other, we all consider how the others will feel playing against certain strategies or certain cards.
Sounds like the perspectives from two strictly different playgroups: Some groups think Chulane is completely busted, the group I'm in think the exact opposite - that Chulane is hard to win with. Charlotte first says Recurring Nightmare looks fair until you watch someone who knows how to play it, while the Professor can't remark that anyone he's played with would want the card if it were unbanned. The difference here is not just skill or card evaluation, but also the needs of the playgroup. Cards aren't overpowered, you just have a misaligned playgroup.
Heres the issue with Chulane, in my opinion. "Whenever you play a creature growth cycle for free" is too powerful to build a casual deck, but not good enough to make a tier 1 deck. He is a very niche commander. I built the deck as soon as eldraine released, but have only played about 10 games with it because it seems unfun for my playgroup. They think they are doing stuff (adorable!) and then I play aluren and ggz.
@@kevinj4002 yeah that's what my mate has done. Got an alluren and shrieking drake. Storms off with aetherflux reservoir, no interaction and hard to mess with
The way I assess chulane and other strong card are, "Is this doing more than I can keep up with?". Makes me think of my Yidris bombs deck; nets so much value my opponents keep up with that I can basically do what I like. Chulane ends you up with cards in hand, a big board and tons of mana well before you should.
There is a self regulating characteristic in playing casually, so it's worth considering. I don't think they presented that as some de facto conclusion or anything like that, here anyway. What's your thoughts about it?
Like when I play magic some card are way too powerful to just play like in commander i play with 4 people and 2 of them have just powerful decks that are not fun to play with i like fun cool deck not over powered to extreme deck if that makes sense if you have overpowered commander it no fun to play magic if that makes sense too
It also wouldn't be so complained about if people remembered that enchantment removal, and especially mass enchantment removal, is a thing... And it's a very budget-friendly thing, to boot.
@G Robinson better deck builder is the idea, hence the "better player" I disagree but I think decks should have at least 10% interaction at least, some counters and/or removal, I have that in my kess deck and guess what that saved me plenty of times from loosing to a big value creatrue
This would be a great solution..... If theres only one player who runs shit that's too good. If two people run things that are unfriendly then it becomes an arms race. Plus you have to pray they dont run things that stop interaction, which there are plenty of such as city of solitude.
Why do so many players complain about wanting "interactive" games, then refuse to run those 10-ish slots for removal? These two pictures are the same picture.
A lot of the good interaction either is or has been for years at a time in the past expensive though. The problem with good interaction is it sees play everywhere else and it's one of the most universal card type staples in the game. Aggro decks need removal, control decks need removal, etc.
Professor, this discussion is very necessary and here are my thoughts about it. Thank you for the opportunity =) - Chulane in competitive is on a low tier power level, but saying it's poorly designed is questionable. It just aims at advantages and hits it, not being a threat by itself like Korvold (that's why only the later apeared in competition in Standard). - "What is overpowered" / "What should be banned" as different things is an attitude towards the banlist that gives a free way to unbalance, and unbalance hurts competition. That's a Game Design standpoint. - Shaming a 8-mana stax piece like Vorinclex over so many others is contradictory to the mana-efficient definition of overpowered. It's a creature (fragile to 1-mana interaction like Path to Exile), and a threat appropriate to it's cost. If anyone gets to cast a 8-mana spell it should be rewarded on this level and the rest of the table gets the responsibility to interact with it. - The same thing goes for Iona. In comparison it's effect gives away ramp to a stax shutdown of one color, but even more inefficient because of it's even higher mana cost and triple specific mana, and being in the color with the least access to ramp, rituals and card advantage. And if you are a monocolored player playing in this power level, yes, you should pack you deck for artifact-based removal. - Are you serious putting Smothering Tithe, one of the only few tools White have, ahead of Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Hullbreacher (see a color here?), Carpet of Flowers and even Dockside Extortionist? Opposition Agent is not on the "advantage" side, but here you have just some more mana efficient things with a more powerful effect than it in colors more powerful. - Sol Ring more powerful than Moxes? Do you know how many combos out there only exist because of casting 0-mana cost stuff? - "The RC didn't considered Timetwister too strong at that time", that's why any banlist should be designed by Game Designers. Not judges (being one myself), not pro players. - Recurring Nightmare yes, should be unbanned because it can be very telegraphed to anyone to see the combo you're about to do because it requires a lot of pieces and tutors (some special, to put the creature in the graveyard) to function. Both departments of "cheating creatures into play" and "recurring reanimator effects" have more efficient and powerful ways to do it. - Yes, Leovold and Prophet of Kruphix are overpowered, hands down. Seedborn Muse is strong in competitive level, but the argument "one piece" is what defines it at "not too". - Worldfire agreed, is way not overpowered and a combo per se to win the game. In a world where you can win with Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation arguing that Coalition Victory and Biorhythm "are overpowered because they win on the spot" is ignoring both its pieces required and mana cost. - "No partners on the level of Tymna and Thrasios", well, this one is uncertain but I feel there are candidates to that very level. - Jeweled Lotus: you casuals were terrified of a turn 1 Braids? (note: we from competitive were not) Now not just turn 1 Urza is trivial, but wait and see the amount of turn 1-3 wins the format will face in an overdrive of fast combo strategies. And no, it's not a mana rock but a ritual in a artifact shape. - Hullbreacher fine?!? That's exactly why I argue to WotC to take control over the banlist of the format. At least the Game Design team correct their mistakes after they make them, not leaving competitive abandoned to a state as if it didn't exist. Again, I'm happy the community is making more and more dialogue about all this. It's just sad that the feeling is that what is heard is somewhat selective (with written statements that it intentionaly devalues the cEDH experience, nonetheless the banlist is for everyone).
smothering tithe change games. It gives you a stupid advantage on mana. two or few run arounds the table and you are set. Banned? well its powerful but people also need to run removals.
@@maxspecs yea, it still a strong card and if not removed can change games but yea easy to remove. People dont seem to run enchant hate or any removal at all.
You guys should specify how much interaction you're talking about. I think most decks have at least 10 removal instants and then also 2-4 boardwipes. In my experience, the issue is rather that everyone runs out of removal relatively quickly. One guy casts Ashnod's Altar, the next casts his Kaalia, then someone plays Smothering Tithe and so on. Then ultimately, the one who did nothing all game wins with a 2-card combo, sometimes after also dropping a Grand Abolisher.
@@sephyrias883 10 removal 5 wipes 8 rocks is my begging to any decks, no less than that usually, I agree that people view commander in the wrong way, they just want to turbo ramp into their janky strategie and say "look at this super busted 20/20 *key words* that cost 20 Mana and seven cards!" But if you doom blade it or counter if you are the stupid optimizer maniac guy, and people don't know when to use their removal
No, I put Vorinclex and Iona into my decks for just the reasons that she said most people don't think of. I didn't care they they were big creatures, they had a lot of control power. But I would love to play with Worldfire for the kick and giggles. Full art talismans would be awesome.
I asked my playgroup would they rather me reanimate jin gitaxis or vorenclex and they voted for jin. I personally think jin is a stronger Praetor in locking out a game. You have a turn to remove him or you are top decking for outs. Vorenclex will slow you down until he is removed but does let you use your hand to find solutions.
Keep in mind that none of the Praetors have any protection whatsoever. Therefore, praetors that generate more value for you are better than praetors that make opponents generate less value.
it's true that on a 1 for 1 comparison jin gitaxis is stronger, (I have a reanimator deck, my play group knows) but vorinclex is more likely to hit the table in the average game because it costs two less mana and it's in green which can more easily ramp to it.
Additionally, jin doesn't punish you for removing it. If you tap 2-3 mana to kill jin, those lands untap next turn. They won't if you use them to remove vorinclex.
I'm amused by how they spend little time on actually powerful cards, and instead focus on un-fun effects. Don't get me wrong, that's a real conversation that's worth having, but it isn't the same as asking what is too powerful. If you want to talk about powerful alt win cons, talk about Thassa's Oracle not Coalition Victory. This feels like a conversation that got off track and didn't address the original question, instead re-treading already well-worn ground.
I hate the counter argument that they use that a card is strong IF a player isn't playing interaction. Isn't that the fault the of players building decks with low interaction? This is why i can't take the ban list seriously. The precedent is non-existent and poorly defined.
@@bobby45825 that argument only works for things that are easily interacted with. Running interaction shouldn't mean every deck needs to be blue. Other colors have extremely limited ability to interact with the stack. Recurring nightmare is immune to most removal, limiting the options for deckbuilding to deal with it.
@@bobby45825 As somebody who plays control in EDH, I don't give two fucks what people run. Play a tight enough deck and you don't have to worry about cards being "overpowered". If you play super casual games and have an issue, talk to your playgroup, otherwise it's better to just get used to it and adapt.
My only issue with jeweled lotus is what its doing to the price of draft boxes and collector boxes. The set went from "normal pricing" to "whoa thats too much". So much so, my LGS went and priced the boxes above current market prices. Sigh
@@somedudeontheinterwebs45 I thought it would be priced as 120$ being 24 packs in box, not standard etc like any other master's set. Although I started seeing amazon go up to 140$. I copped one for 100 flat but I got lucky. I'm wondering what the print run will be like
It is -unlimited- print run. Do not overpay. Go to ebay, to to online LGS' do not pay premium prices for a set that is going to be printed into the ground.
Vorinclex is the kind of card that I own but would never put into my commander deck because I dont want my opponents to feel miserable. The same way that I never used Iona when she wasent banned despite the fact that I own 3 copies. I dont power down my deck enough that I hate losing because of it, but I think about the fun I want everyone to have while playing. Having fun is way more important then winning.
I must contest, I believe you MUST run at least 10% of your nonland cards should be removal in someway. Whether it's a creature with an ETB effect or just straight removal spell like STP or Path.
@@TheOneTrueEfrate I agree! Almost every beginner guild to commander that I have ever seen has that advice. Every color can easily have 10 good removal cards. Some mono color decks have to be more creative but its possible. Use artifacts, land slots, etc to find the required removal.
@@TheOneTrueEfrate Honestly, from my perspective that's pretty damn sparse on the spot removal. Then again, I like playing slow grindy control decks focusing more on interaction than on proactively killing people. Some of my usual LGS group from non-COVID times finds my decks annoying, but it's hard to deny that they make for more memorable and interesting games.
I generally run 7-8 single target removal and about 3 board wipes. Single target removal is much more important in multiplayer because you only need to remove what is threatening YOUR board state. I tend to hold back board wipes because I see opponent's perms as possible weapons against my OTHER opponents and will only wipe if I feel like the archenemy. No interaction just means you will be angry about cards and affects that you decided not to build responses too.
I feel the cards that are too powerful for the format are the ones that warp the game around them. As a cEDH player flash was essentially that. Basically everyone's real commander was flash and we were all playing flash tribal it seemed to simply get it out and win.
I've been putting more and more single target interaction and less board wipes, and been happy with the results - more interesting decision-making. less resets means games end quicker which allows you to get more reps in
I started playing MtG with Eldraine. Picked up Chulane to add cards to for my first commander deck to play with my friends since I really loved my mono-Green pioneer deck. Having no idea how to even begin competently build a deck, my Chulane deck became a borderline mini-Jhoira esque perpetual motion machine with no input from me. I lost as my friends were able to put my fledgling deck down with their years old, far more competently designed decks, but it kind of speaks to the power of the card a new player could take 10 cards out, slot in 50 more randomly, and create an engine that surges them ahead that drastically.
Any ability created that breaks cardinal rules set over 25+ years ago should never be made. Ie Lab man, War Jace, Oracle... No library means you lose, period.
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 i really hate blue and white counter/control. Makes games go on forever and nothing i play goes through so it boils down to preference.
@@elijahbrewer1820 LOL I agree I also hate Azorius Stax as well. I typically use a HYPER AGGRESSIVE (yes that hyper and aggressive that it needs be in caps) CEDH Xenagos deck against them. They might stop a couple but I got 30+ monstrous creatures that will take 1-2 hits to win a game. Last time I pulled out a Malignus and instant killed the stax player, LOL, they haven't played with me since:)
I could not disagree with the other guest more... if you build your deck around cards like wildfire 9 mana is nothing. you can also cheat the cost. for them to say that muse should not be banned is funny.
Hi prof! I think that is a BIG mistake to say that solring is more powerful than a mox. The 0 cost is the difference. If moxes were legal, you can have 2+ colored mana for free. That's the real deal with moxes.
@@stonedphilosopher2185 yes, but what you need is generate more mana faster. On your T1, you need to spend 1 mana to get 2 colorless. With moxes in a 2 color commander, you can have 3 mana on T1. With 3 color 4 and with golos... 5 so Golos T1. And "Yes, solring is better"
Have been wondering how the rules committee keeps dropping the ball lately. After listening to an opinion of the Commander Advisory Group I now know why.
This video seemed to constantly be referring to some generic ideal of casual EDH, that in my experience does not exist. Even discounting cEDH completely, I find gameplay at power level 7 tables to be vastly different than at power level 5 tables. And trying to generalize about both of those in the same breathe seems ineffective at best and misguided at worst. For me the spirit of the format will always be the joy of being able to create and cultivate many different kinds of experiences at many different power levels. And I find it disconcerting that many of the "too powerful" cards discussed here are cards that my friends and I often enjoy playing with at what we would term no greater than tuned or optimized casual. I just couldn't connect with or relate to whatever meta is being referenced in this video as a baseline.
@@LeonBelmont1000 that's why I find the entire premise of the video flawed. "Too powerful for EDH?" seems like entirely the wrong question to ask. Too powerful for a table, local meta, or lgs event maybe. But you can't really effectively aim that question at... all of EDH? EDH is too vast and too varied. This video might make practical sense if it tried to be aimed at a particular power level or play group. But nothing of that sort is ever described. Even as someone who apparently plays in an entirely different local environment from the two speakers in the video, I might still be interested and get value if they bothered to actually describe the baseline they reference. I enjoy learning about other EDH ecologies. But instead all I'm left with as a listener is a lot of assumptions about a supposedly generic casual environment that leaves me... lost.
@@LeonBelmont1000 especially when you're getting wheeled every turn in this scenario. How many cards did you go through and you're telling me you not only have no interaction but you aren't even playing stuff to attack or otherwise mess with the person doing it?
@@skykur but eventually, if wizards prints enough such cards won't that innevitably solve its own problem? Eventually, you cannot possibly fit every staple into a deck. Maybe homogenization isn't a problem of powerful cards being present, but rather of there only being a limited number of powerful cards. When you can no longer jam them all in the same deck, you are forced to make divergent choices. And of course, there is always the rule zero discussion to be had about power level, play style, and game experience. The Prof can hate on cards like Fierce Guardianship all he likes, but it hasn't been a problem locally for me. I have cEDH decks that run it that I have a blast playing. And I have sans blue casual decks that I have purposefully powered down for an entirely different play experience. No one needs to always fully optimize ALL of their decks. More powerful cards are being printed yes. But powerful cards have always existed in the format. I just don't see how Fierce Guardianship is legitmately different from say Necropotence. Putting these cards in your decks is a choice to cultivate a certain type of experience. One that can be fun (if everyone else at the table is on board).
@@kylesavage4525 - He's on Tolaria, there are still some time pockets around the island. Tolaria West managed to remove them all from that side of the island, but the Community College is on the east bank and ran out of funding back in 2024.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege I agree with the other person, have you considered an actual audio podcast? Or is that just too much work for a professor who presumably is overloaded already?
Reprint every 2 mana rock in every commander product, in stages if you must. Same for fetches. Same for tutors. have then constantly reprint every x years. ally signets one year, enemy next, etc. etc. etc.
@@velkejkoren so what? we have millions and millions of commons, uncommons, junk rares and mythics that have no value and almost no one collects, it has never ruined the game. The game lives on because there are plenty of OTHER things to collect, people will keep buying and they will keep releasing cards that are FOR collectors like cards with different art or different borders.
I agree with most points brought up here. I am in a cedh playgroup and though it is the understanding that you need interaction and most games end on turn 3 or 4. It stinks that the usual culprit for most wins is a thassa's oracle with demonic consultation or a tainted pact. This is because it is incredibly hard to interact with and being that it is only 3 or 4 mana to pull off makes it worse.
I appreciate the caveats for Smothering Tithe. I love it because white is my favorite color to play, but I also only play janky casual decks with more flavor than power. And almost no tutors. So I don't feel bad about including it.
Not sure why (Vorinclex) he gets so much hate, one white mana for swords/path. 0 mana for deadly rollick. A counter spell works. Float mana while he's on the stack.... He's got sweet art, awesome abilities. If he cant be responded to the games probably over. Which is fine because he's 8cmc. Shuffle up people see a fresh 7, get more games in.
@@elijahbrewer1820 Getting really tired of this kind out attitude. Its gatekeeping combined with attempts at trying to look rational while demanding people who dont want to play the same as you to leave the hobby just for being different. And, its far to common in this format where diversity in decks and strategies is supposedly one of its strongest points
@@aidanquiett668 then play cedh and stop making other people miserable. You are the kind of guy who thinks going infinite and taking 20 minute turns is fun for the rest of us. You are the problem.
@@elijahbrewer1820 Im the problem? Im not the one forcibly trying to cause a rift in the EDH community, and Im not the one trying to curb stomp casual players. I enjoy both kinds of play, and this kind of "Comp players are ruining commander for everyone!" mindset has just hurt the community from everything Ive seen
I agree with their sentiments on CMR. I actually really like the set as a whole. Most of the Commanders seem like really interesting build arounds, and a lot of them are unique (Then there's the simic precon commander and the Boros commanders)
Chulane on his own is not too overpowering. Put Tatyova with him and they become a powerhouse. Add in Horizon Chimera and you have a life gain and card draw machine. Turn it into a Merfolk Swarm type of deck and you will have a mean deck. Under the right circumstances, Jeweled Lotus can be busted. It should have been printed as a Legendary Artifact, but such an oversight is what breaks it. Play Prototype Portal imprinting the Jeweled Lotus onto it and you can pump out a Jeweled Lotus every turn. This is very useful when you have a commander who is constantly targeted for removal. Anyway you can duplicate the Jeweled Lotus will break it for the late game.
I think the power level conversation could be 3 things. 1 intent; are we looking for a intense powerful game or a slow burn. 2. The general number grade people use now. 3 a average cmc number. I think knowing everyone is close to the same cmc communicates weather we want big splashy or efficient and op
Professor; I typically watch your videos in a way that constrains leaving long meaningful comments, but today I find myself in front of a different screen. I want to offer a sincere thanks for what you do. Your MtG content is my favorite on all of the interwebs. My five-year-old daughter knows you (she thinks you’re boring, but that’s only cause you’re not Princess Poppy). Anyway. You do great videos, keep doing them. -Will
I was in the meta during the Elder Dragon Highland days. It was fun for a decade. But I've moved onto cEDH because I don't want to hold back any more. I am a Spike, not a Johnny. I'll play how I want with the group that wins turn 2-4 or stax's the game out willingly. You play how you want
Depends on the meta and what your play group consents to in terms of power level. Like everything commander discuss with your local playgroup and also if you want to go more powerful than those set limits, you can online with many different online discord groups. If you fail to communicate and you are upset about the power level without raising concerns or discussing it for you then it's on you.
Yup this is why even though I only have a few edh decks they are all at different powerelevels: Precon - Strong battlecruiser - (7-8) - CEDH pretty much lets me be able to fairly play against anyone
@@peeratv1288 With my decks I am either very cutthroat with my deck design or am super cheesy and come up with silly themes or play with cards that nobody has ever seen before and have them work so follow the same philosophy. I have recently started proxying the staples I own with cool alt artwork so I can play more cutthroat decks but also to boost my super weak but super cheesy deck that are not quite enough to cut the mustard otherwise. But even then when I go back to my local playgroup post lockdown I will still ask them are these changes I made with my cheesy decks still ok. As they are pretty casual compared with my more cutthroat/ cEDH decks.
I agree that Worldfire isn't too strong for commander, but I also don't think that's why it's banned. I think Worldfire is banned because it essentially reads "A random player wins the game". It sets everyone to 1 and removes all permanents and hands. Nothing that happened in the entire game before matters anymore and it's only about who draws the last point of damage first. I understand why it's banned, especially in commander, because playing for like, an hour, just to then have nothing that happened the entire game before matter at all could feel extremely frustrating.
I do know of a janky way to guarantee a win using Worldfire. It involves casting a Siege Rhino, and then targeting it with Oblivion Ring before casting Worldfire. The rules regarding Worldfire and how its effects resolve state that each effect on the card resolve, in order, before any other card effects as a result of the consequences of using Worldfire. This means that after everyone's life is set to 1 and all permanents are removed from the battlefield, THEN Siege Rhino enters the battlefield under your control, causing your opponents to lose three life, and you to gain three life.
@@anthonylamonica8301 Well yeah, there are a few ways to win with worlfire. You could use one of the flicker effects that return at eot, for example. There's alway a way, my point was more that it's really hard and won't work unless your deck is more or less dedicated to doing that. If you play the card in any regular match it basically just says "a random player wins the game"
Note on the You Win cards. they have made the point before that they don't like spells that win you the game on resolution but don't mind ones that require you to wait till a specific point. So no to :Coalition Victory/Biorhythm/Worldfire but yes to Revel in Riches/Mortal Combat/Epic Struggle because you wait an entire go around the table till your next upkeep. Darksteel Reactor is an odd duck as the upkeep trigger is conceptually the cause of the win but with things like proliferate, I have never seen it shake out that way.
35:50 I didn't know I needed textless borderless signets until now and now I need need it. That said, A Kaladesh+Ravnica crossover for each signet? Ooooooooh baby.
I think Library of Alexandria and Sundering Titan are potentially worth of an un-ban, yes I know ST can be abused but when not in an abuse case its not that strong of a card by itself.
The argument that because duel lands and timetwister are expensive that price isn't a metric for banning is not very reflective of the history behind those numbers. half of the revised duels were under 100$ just a few years ago, and timetwister had been the cheapest power for a long time. Gaea's cradle is less than a quarter of the price of the cheapest moxen too. I feel like people talk about the price point of cards as if they are all the same but there is a real discrepancy there.
"People don't like to pack a lot of interaction." I'm sorry, what? If that's true I think that's more indicative of a lot of players who are relatively new to MTG are playing EDH. Not playing a lot of removal is sort of a hallmark of a new player. You often just want to play cool creatures or artifacts or whatever, but it's a part of growth to learn that you need to be able to deal with your opponents' cool stuff as well. I have very distinct memories from my early days in Magic where I learned how good "destroy target creature" can be. Then my friend played OG Avacyn and I thought that was OP as hell until I learned about exile and sacrifice effects. I loved playing battlecruiser creature decks until I got wrecked by every wrath or Grave Pact and learned I need to have things that protect those creatures. If a player is just stubborn and refuses to play any interaction because they think it's anti-fun, then they just need to accept the fact that they're probably going to lose a lot more often than they should and the only reason they won't be having as much fun is entirely of their own making.
yeah, the RC has said to me that they don't care about broken cards as long as it doesnt affect *all* players... I have more problems with thassa's oracle than I ever had with Iona...
@@xChikyx Ive had issues with a few cards, such as lion's eye combos and never encountered cards like Iona, Painters, Paradox. The ban list is so subjective that eventually its gonna be useless to have one if they arent prepared to ban like 100+ other cards to allow more creativity in builds and win cons.
@@xChikyx If mana crypt has to be banned then so does grim monolith, jeweled lotus, lotus petal, mana vault. Ive seen people get unlucky rolls/flips from crypt and it hasnt helped that much to the cause but if the opening hand is good then yes they can win by turn 3-4 in a casual setting.
I take issue with discussing overpowered cards when both of the participants seem to exclusively play battlecruiser commander from what they're saying.
There is a single card that is the perfect example of too powerful for commander: Leovold. Too much adventage, unfun experience for opponents, extremely efficient, best color combo.
The big one is consistent-- as a Commander, you'll always have Leovold. It's hard to rival that from many other cards that aren't Legendary Creatures or multicolored ones at least (and thus their power comes at the cost of restricting color identity of your deck).
I still feel like there are so many things they could do to help with white's card advantage issues other than just "give white copies of what other colors do", but they just haven't really tried anything substantial yet (though yeah, rhystic study should be a white card). White could, for example, be the color of utility via modal cards, or have a focus on cantripping spells, or build card advantage in different ways like having cards that make more than one token but not for ridiculous mana costs. "Draw a card" isn't the only way to give card advantage to a color. And hey, isn't white supposed to be #2 in scrying? And enchantress effects? Where'd that go anyway?
@@KingBobXVI They decided it should do nothing but lifegain and bad versions of things it used to do. Heck, look at the new mythic in commander legends. It only makes the 4/4 angels when you attack the player with the highest life total, like mofo you are playing WHITE the color you decided should be ONLY life gain. Why tf is the condition to work that you be lower? Why is white only allowed to start doing things once the enemies have more life, lands, cards in hand, field presence, etc. ???
In mentioning that a card may be too powerful if it locks a player out of the game while also supporting tempo games and seeming to dislike excessive acceleration...what are your thoughts about game turn-around in general. I enjoy playing competitive EDH typically because the games are much shorter giving an opportunity to play another round and potentially allowing another player to win/perform their game winning combo. It really sucks when a player is locked out from a game because they bit the dust early on and then the game proceeds to drag on without them.
Winter/static/torpor/smokestacks/thorn of amethyst/lodestone golem/trinisphere/sphere of resistance/tangle wire. Love those! I get taken out first, and it gives me more time do do other stuff while others play:-) hahahahahahaha
Never understood the Vorinclex hate. Unless youre really lucky and get to entomb & reanimate him early its gonna be turn 6-8 before you can resolve him. If your opponents dont have removal to respond to him within one rotation at this point youre gonna likely have enough mana to win when you untap. He is just a splashy wincon.
Professor! We need a cubeamajigs and dragon shield cube shell comparison. I rely on your wisdom for which MTG items to purchase and I’m looking for a new reusable pack for my cube
Cube Shell seems to be the popular consensus so long as you go in knowing they're not ideal for double-sleeved 20 card packs. I recommend Cube Shells. Cubamajigs are by comparison much more expensive and fall apart pretty quickly, but can hold 20 double sleeved if that's something you NEED. Also they have more design put into them, but that isn't much of a factor for me.
Commander has changed so much over the last few years here, thanks to things being pushed towards efficiency and new power being printed so fast. I would love it if they would ban fast mana, counter spells that cost less than 3 (provided they can hit any spell), and a good chunk of generic value commanders. That said, the RC would never do that because it would upset too many people and they try their best to do nothing whenever possible.
3+ cmc counters are virtually unplayable in edh. Learn to play around those untapped islands. It's actually fun and balanced. The fast mana though: Yuck!
@@stonedphilosopher2185 I think that we'd still see plenty of counterspells played, and I don't at all think they are unplayable, its just that why would you ever choose to play a worse card. Besides I'm not asking for cards like essence scatter, swan song or even or spell pierce to banned, just counterspell, FoW, Mana Drain, PoN, Fierce Guardianship, Foil, etc. The problem is that the more efficient and universal removal is available, the more players must rely on lower cmc cards to avoid losing an entire turn to a 2cmc spell. Counterspells are the most egregious offender because if your spell is countered you get no value from it at all, and many of them do not care about what kind of spell they're countering, where as efficient removal in other forms such as Path to Exile grants the other player an extra land, allows them etb triggers, and only hits creatures. IMO overly flexible, under costed removal is restricting a huge number of cards from ever seeing play, and if a huge drive for the efficiency creep in players decks. I don't mind getting countered, or playing around some open mana, but it's very hard to play around 0 Mana, and I don't like that I have to build around it too.
I hear you, but as a long time lover of blue (and counterspell), I gotta point out that besides stealing permanents, counters are blue's mainstay removal. I know it hurts, butthat what else can a blue mage do? Bounce? I mean sure, there's Pongify and Reality Shift, but those are color pie breaks. Also, cast Force of Will for zero and you'll two for one yourself. It's only really good when you're already about to combo off and you want insurance. Also consider this: in a 4 player game counterspell will only be pointed at you a third of the time. 2/3 of the time it's going to save you from something broken someone else was about to do.
Uh, in my last comment, that there butthat, that doesn't mean butt-hat! Just but. Whoops! I made an editorial mistake rewriting when more eloquent lines hit
@@stonedphilosopher2185 So I would still argue that counterspells at 2 mana and less are too strong. You can argue that blue doesn't have a lot of other removal options, but it still has some, (theft being extremely strong as well), and part of the color pie is that some colors are just worse at removing certain kinds of things in different ways, white for example can remove permanents but not spells, and it typically uses exile, or gives the opponent some benefit for the removal. Blue's only downside is that the window of opportunity for its primary form of removal (counterspells) is pretty small. If you look at blue removal as a whole though you can see that the color is VERY focused on tempo-oriented removal. Bouncing is about making your opponents pay again, stealing not only costs less mana than many powerful creatures, but straight gives you the creature you remove instead of just getting rid of it, and of course counter-spells never let your opponents see any benefit from the card at all, AND remove almost anything in the game AND put you way ahead on tempo (mana/turns) for the price. I'm fine with blue having counter-spells in general, I just think that their effectiveness limits the scope of the rest of deck building. And despite counter-spells only being aimed your way 1/3rd of the time, that doesn't affect what cards you can or can't risk getting countered on the stack. If you go to play a turn you need to try to make sure that regardless of what your opponents do you make some amount of headway in the game. Counter-spells just straight prevent you from doing that if you're playing higher cmc stuff, so in order to avoid that you play two cards of a lower cmc instead because they can probably only counter one. Its about risk-management in deck-building. It's my opinion that overly-efficient/effective removal in ANY color is bad for the format, but that in particular blue has some of the most egregious offenses. Even when FoW and Foil set you back a card it makes little difference when blue is the color with the most efficient/accessible card draw to remedy that problem. Related - due to the amount of card draw they have also means they're the most likely to see their removal early enough to counteract their limited window to handle the problem. Sadly this very thing is actually what is causing MaRo to hold back card draw from white... because its removal is supposedly too good to allow the color lots of access to card draw. I say all this and I'm actually someone runs a considerable amount of interaction in my decks. I run a good removal package and while I will often sit on it for long periods of time waiting for the most opportune moment, I would still be much happier if the RC decided to really balance the format for long-term stability and threw a ton of staple-removal spells onto the ban list. Sadly for me, they likely never will because they're not interested in balancing for a certain play experience, they're more interested in maintaining the fantasy of being able to use any of your cards. Which is one way to go about things I suppose.
Agree. It is needed, but it also went too far. It either wins the game, or gets shot immediately because it will win the game if it doesnt. I think it needs to be closer to thran Dynamo in power, its very good, but doesnt just win the game.
@@Andreasws24 I really wish they designed more cards that are like "BBBB" or "RRRR" that do something insane but it's unreasonable to imagine slotting those cards into just any decks.
I had to come dig this one up. It wasn't in the playlist for Untitled! I thought I was going crazy when I was on #21 and the actual number in the playlist was #20.
It wasn't mentioned, but what about my commander Sheoldred, Whispering One? I run a slow deck strategy that once it gets going is hard to stop. I use Sheoldred to slow down my opponents and to help recover from board wipes quicker. One could say its disruptive to the opponent's strategy by forcing them to sacrifice a creature every turn. However, if you outpace the ability its something a player can work around when they either have enough mana or enough low cost cards. It also doesn't really slow down token decks all that much. But I'm curious what others think. Is this commander too much or is this one not as bad as it initially sounds?
How do people feel about villainous wealth? I love it. Casting a big one can end essentially end the game, and is a very fun way to do so, because you get to try new win conditions. but I having it played against you feels devastating. Apex devastater reminds of villainess wealth, but not as strong. Prof said it's not to powerful but is villainous wealth?
They need to make "ramp" mana more than fast mana. Make a mox that enters the battlefield tapped. Then it's not fast mana, it's just ramp. Make a 2 mana artifact that taps for 2 but comes into play tapped (and maybe has some other restrictions of some kind). As long as it's ramp and not immediately leading into more plays on that player's turn I think it's fine. That's the type of ramp that I like playing against in my casual games.
@@shogert2370 it doesn’t ruin your deck at all unless you’re in a cedh setting. Running slow ramp is a lot more fair and I think that’s primarily what should be played in casual games. That’s why I’d like some more powerful slow ramp that’s not attached to mana dorks, then it could see some play in cEDH as well as casual edh.
@@shogert2370 I don't know what you're assuming, but I play both casual and cEDH. I purposefully power down my casual decks because I like to build very synergistic playstyles. I replace more powerful ramp with more powerful spells, so that the theme decks like ayula bear tribal can run the more powerful ramp to even out the playing field. It all comes down to what power level you want to shoot for. There are always reasons to not just include only the best cards for each scenario, lockets and clustones have places in lower power golos decks aside from being budget - it makes the deck worse, and can allow commanders not as powerful to compete more easily.
I have to disagree with vorinclex. I only play it to halve my opponents mana. When you are aware of the powerlevel of other pods or people you know when you can play decks with it or not. If a meet son guy with a pre con, not going to pull that deck out. On the other hand, I do not play cEDH, but that card would do nothing there..
The way Charlotte defines how a card can be too powerful for Commander has me thinking: Why haven't the RC banned Thoracle? It's objectively more efficient than labman AND jace, not to mention cheaper, and is extremely hard to interact with. Even if your Thoracle gets countered, you didn't lose much because it only costs UU. and on top of that, most decks can't interact with it after it's off the stack. EDIT: A couple of responses seem to not get that "Dies to removal" isn't an argument. This card just doesn't get blown out by the most popular removal of the format(kill spells) and requires that you dedicate space in your deck to specifically either A) counter the ETB trigger, or B) run enough free spells and interaction to prevent your opponent from winning turns 1/2. People also seem to forget that tutors are extremely efficient and manabases are some of the strongest ever in this format. It is very much possible to have the combo by turn 2-3.
Its because its actually much harder to use. If you draw it without the ability to combo off there, its either dead or you play it and know you lost that potential game win in the process. Labman is good largely because he allows you to combo after he is already out, and jace is good because he gets you card draw plus mill on top of his game win ability. Kinda like arguing that there isnt a reason to have a swiss army knife when a scalpel is just so good at surgical procedures
@@aidanquiett668 ThOr + Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact is a two card combo that most colours can't do nothing about it. Labman needs a third card to draw and win AND can be deal with by every color. You are insane to think that ThOr is harder to use lmao
@@jinshootingstar it is a harder card to use in majority of circumstances, because you need combo that most people relegate to CEDH in hand. One people find unfun at lower levels. The entire point of banning flash was to make consultation oracle lines less quick and consistant, which it did. Oracle is a dead card if you don't have it's combo piece, And there are still ways to play around the combo.(stifle is an underplayed card)
@@jinshootingstar Red has REB and PB, blue has counters, green has hatebears and it can tutor them with green tutors like GSZ or the green pact, white has hatebears, black can tutor up any effect in the game, including anything the other colors have, plus its own hatecards. Every color has options so USE THEM and stop complaining about a combo just because it can win on the spot
It's pretty apparent that a lot of the commenters here didn't actually watch the video and don't care to understand the topic because they're too individualistic to consider Commander for what it is: A group experience where everyone's experience matters, not just yours.
Three minutes in and the first answer given by an RC member is "The cards that are too powerful and break the format are the cards which are too powerful and break the format"; gee, thanks for that enlightened insight into your thought processes! It's no wonder the RC does literally nothing!
Adding powerful cards to the format is ultimately a non-issue, in my opinion. As long as a pod's decks are relatively balanced to one another, games will be fun. Notes on particular cards: Vorinclex - unlikely to accelerate the player's mana the turn it hits because of its high cost, but is painful for the person removing it because it punishes their manabase. Solution is for the removal player to make it clear to the table that they're doing them a huge favour. Smothering Tithe - my issue with this is that it's too splashable. It's a very good effect that white needs, but only requiring one white mana to cast it means it can just be included in every deck with white. Making it 1WWW or even WWWW would ensure it only gets played in mono white or very white-heavy decks. Iona - this just comes down to discussing with your pod when choosing what decks to use. Basically, as long as this isn't in a pod with a mono-colour player, it's completely fine.
I'm kinda sick of people always calling out Chulane and Korvold as these overly powerful cards that no matter how you build it they are so strong. Both of those decks I own I'd say are like a 6-7 power level. There are ways of building them to not combo out and just have fun. I think this mindset of having to build the most power version of the deck is really the issue.
Not doubting you, but even without game ending combos I don’t think Korvold or Chulane can be built at a 6-7 unless you fill them with absolute jank.. Remotely decent cards in either of those decks and you’re sitting solidly at an 8.
@@Mrchiken373 Idk I don't think my decks are full of jank but I dont think it's an 8. But everyone's power level is different. I consider 8 right under Cedh and any Cedh deck would destroy my decks. That's why i say 6-7.
Whenever you change the normal game steps to where a player attains them on opponent's turn is usually broken. Like untapping your lands or creatures on thier untap phase for instance. Or putting an untap phase on your end step. Drawing cards not so much..like monarch. Card advantage, and mana advantage wins the game. It should be more about mechanics of cards and strategy of the player. Not just because I own one 3 mana card that gives me instant advantage.
Wizard's philosophy in designing cards for Commander seems to be comparable to what they do to Vintage and Legacy: make everything so broken that it's ultimately balanced. Unfortunately, that sets everyone up for a wallet arms race.
Door to Nothingness eliminates one player a turn later. Something like Coalition Victory eliminates any number of players immediately. I don't see how you can really compare those to each other.
LOL IKR. Some of these comparisons really emphasize how our personal experiences with something determine our decisions on what we deem overpowered and not fun.
I play Vorinclex in every deck that's green. It's my favorite card in the game. It actually got me attracted to playing Magic. If you're my opponent, I don't really care how it effects you. It's doing it's job.
There's definitely a part of me that wishes I could play Recurring Nightmare in Commander, but I also recognize that it absolutely is too absurdly powerful to be in the format. I just have to accept that Cube is the answer.
I too wish you could play it. Honestly, I don’t see the power level everyone claims it has. Too me, it is just another necromancy. Sure, bringing back a wurmcoil and killing it too get tokens is good. But is that any different than flickering a creature and getting tokens when it enters? My opinion is no. Of that player has managed to achieve that board state, that is more on me for not running graveyard hate, not having that counter spell, or not having that wheel to discard his hand, than on him for spending those turns setting up that win.
@@MM-oz9nx Iirc the argument from the vid was that it's a very strong effect and it certainly is, but also that it's difficult to answer, which depends on the meta. I think you could reasonably try it out with your playgroup if there's already enough counterspells, grave hate and hand disruption to not make the card invalidate the rest of the game too much or too often. For the average casual table, I think it would be a mistake. It can easily put everything else in its shadow and remain unanswered by most casual decks without access to blue most of the time. It would make many interesting back and forth games quite boring and predictable. edit. Cube is the answer! Last time I played I had the sweetest jund ponza deck where I reanimated avalanche riders every turn
I think the thing with Sol Ring and moxen is, you can only run 1 Sol Ring. You can run 5 moxen. Also WotC probably doesn't want to reprint Moxen but they can stomach Sol Ring.
I love the seperation between casual commander and cedh. Like chulane is not even close to the top of whats possible in magic but in a casual setting its very overwhelming and powerfull.
Worldfire isn't overpowered. It's just unfun. It just means everyone goes into topdeck mode and the winner is random luck. It negates the plan of every deck except MAYBE its own.
I get your point, but on the other hand chaos is part of RED`s nature and Worldfire causes exactly that. Yes it would be frustrating to face it often, but I wouldn`t mind it happening once in a while tbh. It has the potential to make some really memorable games too.
![ค้าง (STILL) - GEMINI [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ftxx3hk5vkU/mqdefault.jpg)
Pretty sure Worldfire is banned because there is a precident for banning cards that make game actions pointless.
Scharazhad, Worldfire, etc. Those cards say "Ignore the whole game that just happened" and that's not fun.
So exactly like Ugin but Ugin gets to run rampant and colorless... in one of the easiest to ramp card pools ever. Niceeeee
@@FlameMage2 It's that Ugin doesn't "restart" the game, just puts your opponents massively behind, a la Cyclonic Rift. Sure, it's extremely powerful if it resolves, but it doesn't create a physical subgame like Worldfire or Shahrazad.
And somehow “Obliterate” is still legal.... I use it in Jhoira 😅
Was about to say the same thing. Worldfire is just not a fun card. Single card that says "everything that happened before this doesn't matter" is just not fun.
@@DavyMcWavy yeah its pretty inconsistent on the RC's part. You have lots of what are essentially Worldfire effects like Jokelhaups and Decree of Annihilation but aren't banned, but Sway of the Stars and Worldfire are...
"Many Magic the Gathering players ask the question" has the same impact as "Hey Vsauce, Michael here!" when I hear it.
TRUUU
It really has been triggering my "Fight or Flight" lately
Repetition legitimises
@@slimyfister Alright Adam Neely, calm down.
@@slimyfister Repitition legitimises
"A lot of people will put Vorinclex or Iona into their decks not realizing..."
No. Nobody puts these cards into their decks without realizing their impact on play, they put them in specifically for that impact. Ditto for every other part of the Praetor cycle. Interact, play through it, or otherwise learn to dodge it. You want a powerful card? Look at Solemnity, a card that can drive multiple engines concurrently, and breaking it only slows most of those engines down until they can otherwise recover.
Also, cascade is a cast trigger... You don't need to resolve the Apex Devastator for maximum effect, you just need to cast it with sufficient deck-ordering manipulation, and by "sufficient" I really mean "any."
I mean angels are a pretty popular archetype even if it’s jank so why would we assume ill intent for including Iona?
@@vinnythewebsurfer bcs her text doesnt stop at "flying"
@@vinnythewebsurfer not sure if joke, so, for the sake of new players, would you appreciate someone casting Aethersnatch in response to this play?
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 it is naive of you to assume players read the cards.
@@cryosen This has been my biggest gripe with the ban list and the verbiage the RC uses surrounding it. They make it sound like they're protecting players from themselves by banning cards, because naive players will think that those cards will be fun, but the RC knows better and recognizes the un-fun of those cards, so they'll just put them on the list and that way you won't accidentally play with a card that isn't fun.
Sorry but, white needs about 10 more cards that are Smothering Tithe levels of powerful to catch up to the other non-red colors.
@@Habeev07 "non-red", meaning green (strongest), blue (close second) and black (best support colour)
@@baadThe Facts
The problem with smothering tithe is that it's too splashable. If it had double or triple white pips for the CMC, it wouldn't be so high up on this list and would just be a solid white card.
@@Habeev07 If you want to learn the more esoteric parts of the game, try running an Esper (Blue/Black/White) deck. It is easily one of the most versatile color combinations possible, if not THE most versatile. In the hands of an inspired expert, Esper decks are flat-out cruel to play against.
There’s just an imbalance of what is and isn’t able to be discussed under rule 0. A lot more people are ready and able to say “ NO MLD”. Meanwhile no one likes talking about Telling the Simic and green players to stop playing their Land matter decks. Its lead to the majority of players dead set believing that commander is nothing but ramp and card draw and no one wants to take responsibility for it because no one wants to be “THAT” guy.
The way to punish a ramp deck with strong endgame is attacking them down before they gain full power. I think a big part of the problem is that attacking is often discouraged in many commander games.
I'm trying to introduce my playgroups to rushing down Blue and Green players while they're still vulnerable.
I attack myself and encourage attacks by pointing out the best endgame deck. I try to negotiate the other players to not attack each other for a turn cycle so they don't feel the need to leave blockers back and can go full swing with their creatures instead. When I play the Blue/Green deck myself, I point out that I'm very likely mop them if I get to my endgame and that they should try to consider that in their threat assessment.
Has anyone else tried starting a conversation and from what angle?
@@selkokieli843 what pods do you play in that only have 1 person playing some kind of green ramp strategy? Try to beat me off the table when I am on sultai or bant lists and it probably wont even matter. If I combo off at 10 life I still win.
@@kevinj4002 lol you said beat me off
@@kevinj4002 If you're the only deck without UG you're propably just doomed. Would you try talking with your playgroup to find a balanced pod that's interesting to play for everyone? I'm interested in the starting a conversation part.
@@selkokieli843 each of the guys in my playgroup has at least 3 commander decks, so we typically discuss the power levels before games and try to pick balanced matchups and since we usually play 3 games on fridays we have more than 1 "type" of game when we get together to play.
For example I will ask to play casual decks so I can run my Lathliss dragon tribal (never will ever win a game but the flavor is on point lol) or I will ask to play our most powerful decks when I want to run Chulane. We are all friends so noone wants to pubstomp each other, we all consider how the others will feel playing against certain strategies or certain cards.
Sounds like the perspectives from two strictly different playgroups:
Some groups think Chulane is completely busted, the group I'm in think the exact opposite - that Chulane is hard to win with. Charlotte first says Recurring Nightmare looks fair until you watch someone who knows how to play it, while the Professor can't remark that anyone he's played with would want the card if it were unbanned. The difference here is not just skill or card evaluation, but also the needs of the playgroup. Cards aren't overpowered, you just have a misaligned playgroup.
Excellent comment
Absolutely nailed it.
Heres the issue with Chulane, in my opinion.
"Whenever you play a creature growth cycle for free" is too powerful to build a casual deck, but not good enough to make a tier 1 deck.
He is a very niche commander. I built the deck as soon as eldraine released, but have only played about 10 games with it because it seems unfun for my playgroup. They think they are doing stuff (adorable!) and then I play aluren and ggz.
@@kevinj4002 yeah that's what my mate has done. Got an alluren and shrieking drake. Storms off with aetherflux reservoir, no interaction and hard to mess with
The way I assess chulane and other strong card are, "Is this doing more than I can keep up with?". Makes me think of my Yidris bombs deck; nets so much value my opponents keep up with that I can basically do what I like. Chulane ends you up with cards in hand, a big board and tons of mana well before you should.
I don't like that an argument about whether or not something is too strong begins with "Players don't play them because they're too strong".
There is a self regulating characteristic in playing casually, so it's worth considering. I don't think they presented that as some de facto conclusion or anything like that, here anyway. What's your thoughts about it?
Like when I play magic some card are way too powerful to just play like in commander i play with 4 people and 2 of them have just powerful decks that are not fun to play with i like fun cool deck not over powered to extreme deck if that makes sense if you have overpowered commander it no fun to play magic if that makes sense too
I feel like Smothering Tithe wouldn’t be so prevalent if it’s mana cost was 1WWW.
Agreed, I think smothering tithe is fine in a deck which is predominantly white. Its when it can be splashed for which becomes an issue.
It also wouldn't be so complained about if people remembered that enchantment removal, and especially mass enchantment removal, is a thing... And it's a very budget-friendly thing, to boot.
Run. More. Interaction. People just go value value value and then whine when a better player (who put removal in their deck) kills their thing.
@G Robinson better deck builder is the idea, hence the "better player" I disagree but I think decks should have at least 10% interaction at least, some counters and/or removal, I have that in my kess deck and guess what that saved me plenty of times from loosing to a big value creatrue
This would be a great solution.....
If theres only one player who runs shit that's too good. If two people run things that are unfriendly then it becomes an arms race. Plus you have to pray they dont run things that stop interaction, which there are plenty of such as city of solitude.
Why do so many players complain about wanting "interactive" games, then refuse to run those 10-ish slots for removal?
These two pictures are the same picture.
@@batatac4mil86 yeah "better" player wasn't the best wording I'll admit.
A lot of the good interaction either is or has been for years at a time in the past expensive though. The problem with good interaction is it sees play everywhere else and it's one of the most universal card type staples in the game. Aggro decks need removal, control decks need removal, etc.
Professor, this discussion is very necessary and here are my thoughts about it. Thank you for the opportunity =)
- Chulane in competitive is on a low tier power level, but saying it's poorly designed is questionable. It just aims at advantages and hits it, not being a threat by itself like Korvold (that's why only the later apeared in competition in Standard).
- "What is overpowered" / "What should be banned" as different things is an attitude towards the banlist that gives a free way to unbalance, and unbalance hurts competition. That's a Game Design standpoint.
- Shaming a 8-mana stax piece like Vorinclex over so many others is contradictory to the mana-efficient definition of overpowered. It's a creature (fragile to 1-mana interaction like Path to Exile), and a threat appropriate to it's cost. If anyone gets to cast a 8-mana spell it should be rewarded on this level and the rest of the table gets the responsibility to interact with it.
- The same thing goes for Iona. In comparison it's effect gives away ramp to a stax shutdown of one color, but even more inefficient because of it's even higher mana cost and triple specific mana, and being in the color with the least access to ramp, rituals and card advantage. And if you are a monocolored player playing in this power level, yes, you should pack you deck for artifact-based removal.
- Are you serious putting Smothering Tithe, one of the only few tools White have, ahead of Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Hullbreacher (see a color here?), Carpet of Flowers and even Dockside Extortionist? Opposition Agent is not on the "advantage" side, but here you have just some more mana efficient things with a more powerful effect than it in colors more powerful.
- Sol Ring more powerful than Moxes? Do you know how many combos out there only exist because of casting 0-mana cost stuff?
- "The RC didn't considered Timetwister too strong at that time", that's why any banlist should be designed by Game Designers. Not judges (being one myself), not pro players.
- Recurring Nightmare yes, should be unbanned because it can be very telegraphed to anyone to see the combo you're about to do because it requires a lot of pieces and tutors (some special, to put the creature in the graveyard) to function. Both departments of "cheating creatures into play" and "recurring reanimator effects" have more efficient and powerful ways to do it.
- Yes, Leovold and Prophet of Kruphix are overpowered, hands down. Seedborn Muse is strong in competitive level, but the argument "one piece" is what defines it at "not too".
- Worldfire agreed, is way not overpowered and a combo per se to win the game. In a world where you can win with Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation arguing that Coalition Victory and Biorhythm "are overpowered because they win on the spot" is ignoring both its pieces required and mana cost.
- "No partners on the level of Tymna and Thrasios", well, this one is uncertain but I feel there are candidates to that very level.
- Jeweled Lotus: you casuals were terrified of a turn 1 Braids? (note: we from competitive were not) Now not just turn 1 Urza is trivial, but wait and see the amount of turn 1-3 wins the format will face in an overdrive of fast combo strategies. And no, it's not a mana rock but a ritual in a artifact shape.
- Hullbreacher fine?!? That's exactly why I argue to WotC to take control over the banlist of the format. At least the Game Design team correct their mistakes after they make them, not leaving competitive abandoned to a state as if it didn't exist.
Again, I'm happy the community is making more and more dialogue about all this. It's just sad that the feeling is that what is heard is somewhat selective (with written statements that it intentionaly devalues the cEDH experience, nonetheless the banlist is for everyone).
Complaining about Smothering Tithe when green gets a huge boost out of every set.
smothering tithe change games. It gives you a stupid advantage on mana. two or few run arounds the table and you are set. Banned? well its powerful but people also need to run removals.
I mean, sure its strong but it dies to removal.
@@xNemesiSxPR The great henge, guardian project, land ramp, extra lands, double mana, triple mana, I don't think I need to go more.
Last time I checked, Smothering Tithe didn’t have Indestructible. Has that changed?
@@maxspecs yea, it still a strong card and if not removed can change games but yea easy to remove. People dont seem to run enchant hate or any removal at all.
People don’t like playing interaction hurt me. :(
Isn't the issue that they don't hurt you?
I see more interaction in a game of UNO than I do in some games of commander.
You guys should specify how much interaction you're talking about. I think most decks have at least 10 removal instants and then also 2-4 boardwipes. In my experience, the issue is rather that everyone runs out of removal relatively quickly. One guy casts Ashnod's Altar, the next casts his Kaalia, then someone plays Smothering Tithe and so on. Then ultimately, the one who did nothing all game wins with a 2-card combo, sometimes after also dropping a Grand Abolisher.
@@sephyrias883 10 removal 5 wipes 8 rocks is my begging to any decks, no less than that usually, I agree that people view commander in the wrong way, they just want to turbo ramp into their janky strategie and say "look at this super busted 20/20 *key words* that cost 20 Mana and seven cards!" But if you doom blade it or counter if you are the stupid optimizer maniac guy, and people don't know when to use their removal
@@cryosen lol same. people ask me for help making their decks better and when i give them effecient removal their like "what is this useless chaff"
No, I put Vorinclex and Iona into my decks for just the reasons that she said most people don't think of. I didn't care they they were big creatures, they had a lot of control power. But I would love to play with Worldfire for the kick and giggles. Full art talismans would be awesome.
+1 for the textless guild signets !
I asked my playgroup would they rather me reanimate jin gitaxis or vorenclex and they voted for jin. I personally think jin is a stronger Praetor in locking out a game. You have a turn to remove him or you are top decking for outs. Vorenclex will slow you down until he is removed but does let you use your hand to find solutions.
I had a Jin deck that I made into a Kefnet because I just mobbed my friends with it. No one could ever stand a chance, Jin is just way to powerful.
JIn gitaxis is also 2 more mana, which doesn't matter for reanimation but hard casting vorinclex is a thing that often happens, not as often for jin.
Keep in mind that none of the Praetors have any protection whatsoever. Therefore, praetors that generate more value for you are better than praetors that make opponents generate less value.
it's true that on a 1 for 1 comparison jin gitaxis is stronger, (I have a reanimator deck, my play group knows) but vorinclex is more likely to hit the table in the average game because it costs two less mana and it's in green which can more easily ramp to it.
Additionally, jin doesn't punish you for removing it. If you tap 2-3 mana to kill jin, those lands untap next turn. They won't if you use them to remove vorinclex.
I'm amused by how they spend little time on actually powerful cards, and instead focus on un-fun effects. Don't get me wrong, that's a real conversation that's worth having, but it isn't the same as asking what is too powerful. If you want to talk about powerful alt win cons, talk about Thassa's Oracle not Coalition Victory. This feels like a conversation that got off track and didn't address the original question, instead re-treading already well-worn ground.
Yeah this episode was a bit of a dud, I think a more literate and well spoken guest would've been better
"There's only one or two colors that can interact with Recurring Nightmare."
Pithing Needle would like a word.
I hate the counter argument that they use that a card is strong IF a player isn't playing interaction. Isn't that the fault the of players building decks with low interaction?
This is why i can't take the ban list seriously. The precedent is non-existent and poorly defined.
@@bobby45825 that argument only works for things that are easily interacted with. Running interaction shouldn't mean every deck needs to be blue. Other colors have extremely limited ability to interact with the stack. Recurring nightmare is immune to most removal, limiting the options for deckbuilding to deal with it.
@@bobby45825 As somebody who plays control in EDH, I don't give two fucks what people run. Play a tight enough deck and you don't have to worry about cards being "overpowered".
If you play super casual games and have an issue, talk to your playgroup, otherwise it's better to just get used to it and adapt.
@@me364874 t h a n k y o u
@@me364874 Completely agree.
My only issue with jeweled lotus is what its doing to the price of draft boxes and collector boxes. The set went from "normal pricing" to "whoa thats too much".
So much so, my LGS went and priced the boxes above current market prices. Sigh
Boxes on Amazon are selling for 115-120, but it's still not the same price as a normal box. Darn collectors. :(
@@somedudeontheinterwebs45 I thought it would be priced as 120$ being 24 packs in box, not standard etc like any other master's set. Although I started seeing amazon go up to 140$. I copped one for 100 flat but I got lucky. I'm wondering what the print run will be like
It is -unlimited- print run. Do not overpay. Go to ebay, to to online LGS' do not pay premium prices for a set that is going to be printed into the ground.
@@flababofa if it is unlimited I wouldn't settle for anything higher than 110. I don't think they'll go below that
@@georgiopapakonstantinou1580 that's what i paid and agree that i would be the most i would pay as well
Vorinclex is the kind of card that I own but would never put into my commander deck because I dont want my opponents to feel miserable. The same way that I never used Iona when she wasent banned despite the fact that I own 3 copies. I dont power down my deck enough that I hate losing because of it, but I think about the fun I want everyone to have while playing. Having fun is way more important then winning.
"They printed a Merfolk that was actually good."
What I'd give to hear Alex Borteh to respond to that...
Smothering Tithe is too strong!!!
But Hullbreacher is fine, because it's a Merfolk, right Prof? *wheezes*
I must contest, I believe you MUST run at least 10% of your nonland cards should be removal in someway. Whether it's a creature with an ETB effect or just straight removal spell like STP or Path.
5 wraths 5 spot removal pretty much every deck.
@@TheOneTrueEfrate I agree! Almost every beginner guild to commander that I have ever seen has that advice. Every color can easily have 10 good removal cards. Some mono color decks have to be more creative but its possible. Use artifacts, land slots, etc to find the required removal.
@@TheOneTrueEfrate Honestly, from my perspective that's pretty damn sparse on the spot removal. Then again, I like playing slow grindy control decks focusing more on interaction than on proactively killing people. Some of my usual LGS group from non-COVID times finds my decks annoying, but it's hard to deny that they make for more memorable and interesting games.
I generally run 7-8 single target removal and about 3 board wipes. Single target removal is much more important in multiplayer because you only need to remove what is threatening YOUR board state. I tend to hold back board wipes because I see opponent's perms as possible weapons against my OTHER opponents and will only wipe if I feel like the archenemy. No interaction just means you will be angry about cards and affects that you decided not to build responses too.
I feel the cards that are too powerful for the format are the ones that warp the game around them. As a cEDH player flash was essentially that. Basically everyone's real commander was flash and we were all playing flash tribal it seemed to simply get it out and win.
and it's fish tribal now because of thassa's still being allowed to exist lol
@@TheMightyBattleSquid kiki made a huge resurgence recently which is nice.
I've been putting more and more single target interaction and less board wipes, and been happy with the results - more interesting decision-making. less resets means games end quicker which allows you to get more reps in
I started playing MtG with Eldraine. Picked up Chulane to add cards to for my first commander deck to play with my friends since I really loved my mono-Green pioneer deck. Having no idea how to even begin competently build a deck, my Chulane deck became a borderline mini-Jhoira esque perpetual motion machine with no input from me. I lost as my friends were able to put my fledgling deck down with their years old, far more competently designed decks, but it kind of speaks to the power of the card a new player could take 10 cards out, slot in 50 more randomly, and create an engine that surges them ahead that drastically.
Demonic consultation in casual is too
Powerful. Thassa’s Oracle in CEDH is too strong and underworld breach is just fucking busted lol
Any ability created that breaks cardinal rules set over 25+ years ago should never be made. Ie Lab man, War Jace, Oracle... No library means you lose, period.
@@davidturtzo2396 I'm actually OK with banning Lab man effects in Commander.
Kettukarkki represents! Much love from finland to Charlotte and the prof
"Oh sorry guys I didn't know Iona was going to shut your decks down I just thought it looked cool"
I use her on purpose to shut down blue
I really dislike Iona, 10/10 for the lazy power Timmy card though
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 i really hate blue and white counter/control. Makes games go on forever and nothing i play goes through so it boils down to preference.
@@elijahbrewer1820 LOL I agree I also hate Azorius Stax as well. I typically use a HYPER AGGRESSIVE (yes that hyper and aggressive that it needs be in caps) CEDH Xenagos deck against them. They might stop a couple but I got 30+ monstrous creatures that will take 1-2 hits to win a game. Last time I pulled out a Malignus and instant killed the stax player, LOL, they haven't played with me since:)
There’s 2 other players to go and hit in the face. I don’t see the problem.
If you ask 100 Magic: The Gathering Players you will get at least 164 different answers/ opinions... 😅
This is truth.
I could not disagree with the other guest more... if you build your deck around cards like wildfire 9 mana is nothing. you can also cheat the cost. for them to say that muse should not be banned is funny.
Hi prof! I think that is a BIG mistake to say that solring is more powerful than a mox. The 0 cost is the difference. If moxes were legal, you can have 2+ colored mana for free. That's the real deal with moxes.
Nope. Sol Ring makes twice the mana each turn. Duh
@@stonedphilosopher2185 yes, but what you need is generate more mana faster. On your T1, you need to spend 1 mana to get 2 colorless. With moxes in a 2 color commander, you can have 3 mana on T1. With 3 color 4 and with golos... 5 so Golos T1. And "Yes, solring is better"
@@Ixidior Starting hand 5 moxes, jeweled lotus, and sol ring. Activate Golos turn 1!
Rhystic Study is way more busted than Smothering Tithe...lets get that out there
Have been wondering how the rules committee keeps dropping the ball lately. After listening to an opinion of the Commander Advisory Group I now know why.
Lmao
This video seemed to constantly be referring to some generic ideal of casual EDH, that in my experience does not exist. Even discounting cEDH completely, I find gameplay at power level 7 tables to be vastly different than at power level 5 tables. And trying to generalize about both of those in the same breathe seems ineffective at best and misguided at worst.
For me the spirit of the format will always be the joy of being able to create and cultivate many different kinds of experiences at many different power levels. And I find it disconcerting that many of the "too powerful" cards discussed here are cards that my friends and I often enjoy playing with at what we would term no greater than tuned or optimized casual.
I just couldn't connect with or relate to whatever meta is being referenced in this video as a baseline.
@@LeonBelmont1000 that's why I find the entire premise of the video flawed. "Too powerful for EDH?" seems like entirely the wrong question to ask. Too powerful for a table, local meta, or lgs event maybe. But you can't really effectively aim that question at... all of EDH?
EDH is too vast and too varied.
This video might make practical sense if it tried to be aimed at a particular power level or play group. But nothing of that sort is ever described.
Even as someone who apparently plays in an entirely different local environment from the two speakers in the video, I might still be interested and get value if they bothered to actually describe the baseline they reference. I enjoy learning about other EDH ecologies.
But instead all I'm left with as a listener is a lot of assumptions about a supposedly generic casual environment that leaves me... lost.
@@LeonBelmont1000 especially when you're getting wheeled every turn in this scenario. How many cards did you go through and you're telling me you not only have no interaction but you aren't even playing stuff to attack or otherwise mess with the person doing it?
There is no baseline meta. They are bad players complaining about decks they think are advanced.
@@skykur but eventually, if wizards prints enough such cards won't that innevitably solve its own problem? Eventually, you cannot possibly fit every staple into a deck.
Maybe homogenization isn't a problem of powerful cards being present, but rather of there only being a limited number of powerful cards. When you can no longer jam them all in the same deck, you are forced to make divergent choices.
And of course, there is always the rule zero discussion to be had about power level, play style, and game experience.
The Prof can hate on cards like Fierce Guardianship all he likes, but it hasn't been a problem locally for me. I have cEDH decks that run it that I have a blast playing. And I have sans blue casual decks that I have purposefully powered down for an entirely different play experience. No one needs to always fully optimize ALL of their decks.
More powerful cards are being printed yes. But powerful cards have always existed in the format. I just don't see how Fierce Guardianship is legitmately different from say Necropotence. Putting these cards in your decks is a choice to cultivate a certain type of experience. One that can be fun (if everyone else at the table is on board).
Love all the long form podcast content. Makes the work day go by much easier
Glad you enjoy it!
I wish it was actually a podcast I could listen to at work.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege How on earth did u respond to this comment an hour before it was posted lol?
@@kylesavage4525 - He's on Tolaria, there are still some time pockets around the island. Tolaria West managed to remove them all from that side of the island, but the Community College is on the east bank and ran out of funding back in 2024.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege I agree with the other person, have you considered an actual audio podcast? Or is that just too much work for a professor who presumably is overloaded already?
Prof please add this to the UmtgP playlist!
Smothering tithe over Rhystic study? interesting
Silly professor, I'm back to point out that Hullbreacher is now many, many real world dollars!
Reprint every 2 mana rock in every commander product, in stages if you must. Same for fetches. Same for tutors. have then constantly reprint every x years. ally signets one year, enemy next, etc. etc. etc.
Then these cards will be everywhere, value goes to zero and boom! There goes our game. Who will collect things of no value?
@@velkejkoren so what? we have millions and millions of commons, uncommons, junk rares and mythics that have no value and almost no one collects, it has never ruined the game. The game lives on because there are plenty of OTHER things to collect, people will keep buying and they will keep releasing cards that are FOR collectors like cards with different art or different borders.
The End was just on point
Your work for more representation is incredible !!!! Thank you Prof!
I agree with most points brought up here. I am in a cedh playgroup and though it is the understanding that you need interaction and most games end on turn 3 or 4. It stinks that the usual culprit for most wins is a thassa's oracle with demonic consultation or a tainted pact. This is because it is incredibly hard to interact with and being that it is only 3 or 4 mana to pull off makes it worse.
I really wish I could play Coalition Victory in my Sisay, Weatherlight Captain deck, for flavor reasons.
I appreciate the caveats for Smothering Tithe. I love it because white is my favorite color to play, but I also only play janky casual decks with more flavor than power. And almost no tutors. So I don't feel bad about including it.
It's not the resources, but what you do with them. Even tutors can be enjoyed in the right circumstance.
Not sure why (Vorinclex) he gets so much hate, one white mana for swords/path. 0 mana for deadly rollick. A counter spell works. Float mana while he's on the stack.... He's got sweet art, awesome abilities. If he cant be responded to the games probably over. Which is fine because he's 8cmc. Shuffle up people see a fresh 7, get more games in.
Hes definitely gotten worse and hasnt aged well.
Because if you cant use your mana you arent playing magic. If you want to play solitaire buy a bycicle deck and stay home.
@@elijahbrewer1820 Getting really tired of this kind out attitude. Its gatekeeping combined with attempts at trying to look rational while demanding people who dont want to play the same as you to leave the hobby just for being different. And, its far to common in this format where diversity in decks and strategies is supposedly one of its strongest points
@@aidanquiett668 then play cedh and stop making other people miserable. You are the kind of guy who thinks going infinite and taking 20 minute turns is fun for the rest of us. You are the problem.
@@elijahbrewer1820 Im the problem? Im not the one forcibly trying to cause a rift in the EDH community, and Im not the one trying to curb stomp casual players. I enjoy both kinds of play, and this kind of "Comp players are ruining commander for everyone!" mindset has just hurt the community from everything Ive seen
Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Dockside Extorsinist, Hollbreacher, Opposition Agent, all the free if you control your commander cards.
I agree with their sentiments on CMR. I actually really like the set as a whole. Most of the Commanders seem like really interesting build arounds, and a lot of them are unique (Then there's the simic precon commander and the Boros commanders)
Chulane on his own is not too overpowering. Put Tatyova with him and they become a powerhouse. Add in Horizon Chimera and you have a life gain and card draw machine. Turn it into a Merfolk Swarm type of deck and you will have a mean deck.
Under the right circumstances, Jeweled Lotus can be busted. It should have been printed as a Legendary Artifact, but such an oversight is what breaks it. Play Prototype Portal imprinting the Jeweled Lotus onto it and you can pump out a Jeweled Lotus every turn. This is very useful when you have a commander who is constantly targeted for removal. Anyway you can duplicate the Jeweled Lotus will break it for the late game.
I think the power level conversation could be 3 things. 1 intent; are we looking for a intense powerful game or a slow burn. 2. The general number grade people use now. 3 a average cmc number. I think knowing everyone is close to the same cmc communicates weather we want big splashy or efficient and op
I don't know, the last time someone played Vorinclex at my group we ended up having a Vorinclex party cause 2 other players made copies of it.
Sucks for the one player who didn't
Professor; I typically watch your videos in a way that constrains leaving long meaningful comments, but today I find myself in front of a different screen. I want to offer a sincere thanks for what you do. Your MtG content is my favorite on all of the interwebs. My five-year-old daughter knows you (she thinks you’re boring, but that’s only cause you’re not Princess Poppy). Anyway. You do great videos, keep doing them. -Will
I was in the meta during the Elder Dragon Highland days. It was fun for a decade. But I've moved onto cEDH because I don't want to hold back any more. I am a Spike, not a Johnny. I'll play how I want with the group that wins turn 2-4 or stax's the game out willingly. You play how you want
If Apex devestator is enough for Brian not to have fun, I guess his playgroups never play blue or black cards ?
Depends on the meta and what your play group consents to in terms of power level. Like everything commander discuss with your local playgroup and also if you want to go more powerful than those set limits, you can online with many different online discord groups. If you fail to communicate and you are upset about the power level without raising concerns or discussing it for you then it's on you.
Yup this is why even though I only have a few edh decks they are all at different powerelevels: Precon - Strong battlecruiser - (7-8) - CEDH pretty much lets me be able to fairly play against anyone
@@peeratv1288 With my decks I am either very cutthroat with my deck design or am super cheesy and come up with silly themes or play with cards that nobody has ever seen before and have them work so follow the same philosophy.
I have recently started proxying the staples I own with cool alt artwork so I can play more cutthroat decks but also to boost my super weak but super cheesy deck that are not quite enough to cut the mustard otherwise. But even then when I go back to my local playgroup post lockdown I will still ask them are these changes I made with my cheesy decks still ok. As they are pretty casual compared with my more cutthroat/ cEDH decks.
I agree that Worldfire isn't too strong for commander, but I also don't think that's why it's banned. I think Worldfire is banned because it essentially reads "A random player wins the game". It sets everyone to 1 and removes all permanents and hands. Nothing that happened in the entire game before matters anymore and it's only about who draws the last point of damage first. I understand why it's banned, especially in commander, because playing for like, an hour, just to then have nothing that happened the entire game before matter at all could feel extremely frustrating.
I do know of a janky way to guarantee a win using Worldfire. It involves casting a Siege Rhino, and then targeting it with Oblivion Ring before casting Worldfire. The rules regarding Worldfire and how its effects resolve state that each effect on the card resolve, in order, before any other card effects as a result of the consequences of using Worldfire. This means that after everyone's life is set to 1 and all permanents are removed from the battlefield, THEN Siege Rhino enters the battlefield under your control, causing your opponents to lose three life, and you to gain three life.
@@anthonylamonica8301
Well yeah, there are a few ways to win with worlfire. You could use one of the flicker effects that return at eot, for example. There's alway a way, my point was more that it's really hard and won't work unless your deck is more or less dedicated to doing that. If you play the card in any regular match it basically just says "a random player wins the game"
I enjoy that there's at least 2 Ponka po's in this video.
Note on the You Win cards. they have made the point before that they don't like spells that win you the game on resolution but don't mind ones that require you to wait till a specific point. So no to :Coalition Victory/Biorhythm/Worldfire but yes to Revel in Riches/Mortal Combat/Epic Struggle because you wait an entire go around the table till your next upkeep. Darksteel Reactor is an odd duck as the upkeep trigger is conceptually the cause of the win but with things like proliferate, I have never seen it shake out that way.
35:50 I didn't know I needed textless borderless signets until now and now I need need it. That said, A Kaladesh+Ravnica crossover for each signet? Ooooooooh baby.
I think Library of Alexandria and Sundering Titan are potentially worth of an un-ban, yes I know ST can be abused but when not in an abuse case its not that strong of a card by itself.
The argument that because duel lands and timetwister are expensive that price isn't a metric for banning is not very reflective of the history behind those numbers. half of the revised duels were under 100$ just a few years ago, and timetwister had been the cheapest power for a long time. Gaea's cradle is less than a quarter of the price of the cheapest moxen too. I feel like people talk about the price point of cards as if they are all the same but there is a real discrepancy there.
"People don't like to pack a lot of interaction."
I'm sorry, what? If that's true I think that's more indicative of a lot of players who are relatively new to MTG are playing EDH.
Not playing a lot of removal is sort of a hallmark of a new player. You often just want to play cool creatures or artifacts or whatever, but it's a part of growth to learn that you need to be able to deal with your opponents' cool stuff as well. I have very distinct memories from my early days in Magic where I learned how good "destroy target creature" can be. Then my friend played OG Avacyn and I thought that was OP as hell until I learned about exile and sacrifice effects. I loved playing battlecruiser creature decks until I got wrecked by every wrath or Grave Pact and learned I need to have things that protect those creatures.
If a player is just stubborn and refuses to play any interaction because they think it's anti-fun, then they just need to accept the fact that they're probably going to lose a lot more often than they should and the only reason they won't be having as much fun is entirely of their own making.
Once again it shows how a ban list based on subjective criteria is bad.
yeah, the RC has said to me that they don't care about broken cards as long as it doesnt affect *all* players... I have more problems with thassa's oracle than I ever had with Iona...
@@xChikyx Ive had issues with a few cards, such as lion's eye combos and never encountered cards like Iona, Painters, Paradox. The ban list is so subjective that eventually its gonna be useless to have one if they arent prepared to ban like 100+ other cards to allow more creativity in builds and win cons.
@@TheMystcast tbh, to me we only need thassa's oracle, cyclonic rift, tooth and nail, and mana crypt banned (in addition of the current ones)
@@xChikyx If mana crypt has to be banned then so does grim monolith, jeweled lotus, lotus petal, mana vault. Ive seen people get unlucky rolls/flips from crypt and it hasnt helped that much to the cause but if the opening hand is good then yes they can win by turn 3-4 in a casual setting.
@@TheMystcast nope, those have requirements for the mana, and dont cost 0... Mana crypt is just stupidly broken
I take issue with discussing overpowered cards when both of the participants seem to exclusively play battlecruiser commander from what they're saying.
There is a single card that is the perfect example of too powerful for commander: Leovold. Too much adventage, unfun experience for opponents, extremely efficient, best color combo.
The big one is consistent-- as a Commander, you'll always have Leovold. It's hard to rival that from many other cards that aren't Legendary Creatures or multicolored ones at least (and thus their power comes at the cost of restricting color identity of your deck).
I wish white had a Smothering Tithe that was a copy of Rhystic Study- 3 CMC, 1 mana trigger on draws
I still feel like there are so many things they could do to help with white's card advantage issues other than just "give white copies of what other colors do", but they just haven't really tried anything substantial yet (though yeah, rhystic study should be a white card).
White could, for example, be the color of utility via modal cards, or have a focus on cantripping spells, or build card advantage in different ways like having cards that make more than one token but not for ridiculous mana costs. "Draw a card" isn't the only way to give card advantage to a color. And hey, isn't white supposed to be #2 in scrying? And enchantress effects? Where'd that go anyway?
@@KingBobXVI They decided it should do nothing but lifegain and bad versions of things it used to do. Heck, look at the new mythic in commander legends. It only makes the 4/4 angels when you attack the player with the highest life total, like mofo you are playing WHITE the color you decided should be ONLY life gain. Why tf is the condition to work that you be lower? Why is white only allowed to start doing things once the enemies have more life, lands, cards in hand, field presence, etc. ???
In mentioning that a card may be too powerful if it locks a player out of the game while also supporting tempo games and seeming to dislike excessive acceleration...what are your thoughts about game turn-around in general. I enjoy playing competitive EDH typically because the games are much shorter giving an opportunity to play another round and potentially allowing another player to win/perform their game winning combo. It really sucks when a player is locked out from a game because they bit the dust early on and then the game proceeds to drag on without them.
"That's more of a flavor fail" The justification was so amazing haha.
Winter/static/torpor/smokestacks/thorn of amethyst/lodestone golem/trinisphere/sphere of resistance/tangle wire. Love those! I get taken out first, and it gives me more time do do other stuff while others play:-) hahahahahahaha
Lol
Never understood the Vorinclex hate. Unless youre really lucky and get to entomb & reanimate him early its gonna be turn 6-8 before you can resolve him. If your opponents dont have removal to respond to him within one rotation at this point youre gonna likely have enough mana to win when you untap. He is just a splashy wincon.
Professor! We need a cubeamajigs and dragon shield cube shell comparison. I rely on your wisdom for which MTG items to purchase and I’m looking for a new reusable pack for my cube
Cube Shell seems to be the popular consensus so long as you go in knowing they're not ideal for double-sleeved 20 card packs. I recommend Cube Shells. Cubamajigs are by comparison much more expensive and fall apart pretty quickly, but can hold 20 double sleeved if that's something you NEED. Also they have more design put into them, but that isn't much of a factor for me.
Commander has changed so much over the last few years here, thanks to things being pushed towards efficiency and new power being printed so fast. I would love it if they would ban fast mana, counter spells that cost less than 3 (provided they can hit any spell), and a good chunk of generic value commanders. That said, the RC would never do that because it would upset too many people and they try their best to do nothing whenever possible.
3+ cmc counters are virtually unplayable in edh. Learn to play around those untapped islands. It's actually fun and balanced. The fast mana though: Yuck!
@@stonedphilosopher2185 I think that we'd still see plenty of counterspells played, and I don't at all think they are unplayable, its just that why would you ever choose to play a worse card. Besides I'm not asking for cards like essence scatter, swan song or even or spell pierce to banned, just counterspell, FoW, Mana Drain, PoN, Fierce Guardianship, Foil, etc.
The problem is that the more efficient and universal removal is available, the more players must rely on lower cmc cards to avoid losing an entire turn to a 2cmc spell. Counterspells are the most egregious offender because if your spell is countered you get no value from it at all, and many of them do not care about what kind of spell they're countering, where as efficient removal in other forms such as Path to Exile grants the other player an extra land, allows them etb triggers, and only hits creatures.
IMO overly flexible, under costed removal is restricting a huge number of cards from ever seeing play, and if a huge drive for the efficiency creep in players decks. I don't mind getting countered, or playing around some open mana, but it's very hard to play around 0 Mana, and I don't like that I have to build around it too.
I hear you, but as a long time lover of blue (and counterspell), I gotta point out that besides stealing permanents, counters are blue's mainstay removal. I know it hurts, butthat what else can a blue mage do? Bounce? I mean sure, there's Pongify and Reality Shift, but those are color pie breaks. Also, cast Force of Will for zero and you'll two for one yourself. It's only really good when you're already about to combo off and you want insurance. Also consider this: in a 4 player game counterspell will only be pointed at you a third of the time. 2/3 of the time it's going to save you from something broken someone else was about to do.
Uh, in my last comment, that there butthat, that doesn't mean butt-hat! Just but. Whoops! I made an editorial mistake rewriting when more eloquent lines hit
@@stonedphilosopher2185 So I would still argue that counterspells at 2 mana and less are too strong.
You can argue that blue doesn't have a lot of other removal options, but it still has some, (theft being extremely strong as well), and part of the color pie is that some colors are just worse at removing certain kinds of things in different ways, white for example can remove permanents but not spells, and it typically uses exile, or gives the opponent some benefit for the removal.
Blue's only downside is that the window of opportunity for its primary form of removal (counterspells) is pretty small. If you look at blue removal as a whole though you can see that the color is VERY focused on tempo-oriented removal. Bouncing is about making your opponents pay again, stealing not only costs less mana than many powerful creatures, but straight gives you the creature you remove instead of just getting rid of it, and of course counter-spells never let your opponents see any benefit from the card at all, AND remove almost anything in the game AND put you way ahead on tempo (mana/turns) for the price.
I'm fine with blue having counter-spells in general, I just think that their effectiveness limits the scope of the rest of deck building. And despite counter-spells only being aimed your way 1/3rd of the time, that doesn't affect what cards you can or can't risk getting countered on the stack. If you go to play a turn you need to try to make sure that regardless of what your opponents do you make some amount of headway in the game. Counter-spells just straight prevent you from doing that if you're playing higher cmc stuff, so in order to avoid that you play two cards of a lower cmc instead because they can probably only counter one. Its about risk-management in deck-building.
It's my opinion that overly-efficient/effective removal in ANY color is bad for the format, but that in particular blue has some of the most egregious offenses. Even when FoW and Foil set you back a card it makes little difference when blue is the color with the most efficient/accessible card draw to remedy that problem. Related - due to the amount of card draw they have also means they're the most likely to see their removal early enough to counteract their limited window to handle the problem. Sadly this very thing is actually what is causing MaRo to hold back card draw from white... because its removal is supposedly too good to allow the color lots of access to card draw.
I say all this and I'm actually someone runs a considerable amount of interaction in my decks. I run a good removal package and while I will often sit on it for long periods of time waiting for the most opportune moment, I would still be much happier if the RC decided to really balance the format for long-term stability and threw a ton of staple-removal spells onto the ban list. Sadly for me, they likely never will because they're not interested in balancing for a certain play experience, they're more interested in maintaining the fantasy of being able to use any of your cards. Which is one way to go about things I suppose.
"Smothering Tithe" is definitely an overpowered card, but it gets an exception because it helps out White.
The problem is it costs 1 white and three of any color, rather than four white.
@@Andreasws24 EXACTLY!
Agree. It is needed, but it also went too far. It either wins the game, or gets shot immediately because it will win the game if it doesnt. I think it needs to be closer to thran Dynamo in power, its very good, but doesnt just win the game.
@@Andreasws24 I really wish they designed more cards that are like "BBBB" or "RRRR" that do something insane but it's unreasonable to imagine slotting those cards into just any decks.
I'd rather an 'I win' button over sitting around for six hours watching niv-mizzet storm off or green vomit all over the board again
I had to come dig this one up. It wasn't in the playlist for Untitled! I thought I was going crazy when I was on #21 and the actual number in the playlist was #20.
I feel like Golos deserves an honorable mention here, that guy get's out of hand very quickly if left unchecked.
It wasn't mentioned, but what about my commander Sheoldred, Whispering One? I run a slow deck strategy that once it gets going is hard to stop. I use Sheoldred to slow down my opponents and to help recover from board wipes quicker. One could say its disruptive to the opponent's strategy by forcing them to sacrifice a creature every turn. However, if you outpace the ability its something a player can work around when they either have enough mana or enough low cost cards. It also doesn't really slow down token decks all that much. But I'm curious what others think. Is this commander too much or is this one not as bad as it initially sounds?
How do people feel about villainous wealth? I love it. Casting a big one can end essentially end the game, and is a very fun way to do so, because you get to try new win conditions. but I having it played against you feels devastating. Apex devastater reminds of villainess wealth, but not as strong. Prof said it's not to powerful but is villainous wealth?
They need to make "ramp" mana more than fast mana. Make a mox that enters the battlefield tapped. Then it's not fast mana, it's just ramp. Make a 2 mana artifact that taps for 2 but comes into play tapped (and maybe has some other restrictions of some kind). As long as it's ramp and not immediately leading into more plays on that player's turn I think it's fine. That's the type of ramp that I like playing against in my casual games.
@@shogert2370 it doesn’t ruin your deck at all unless you’re in a cedh setting. Running slow ramp is a lot more fair and I think that’s primarily what should be played in casual games. That’s why I’d like some more powerful slow ramp that’s not attached to mana dorks, then it could see some play in cEDH as well as casual edh.
@@shogert2370 I don't know what you're assuming, but I play both casual and cEDH. I purposefully power down my casual decks because I like to build very synergistic playstyles. I replace more powerful ramp with more powerful spells, so that the theme decks like ayula bear tribal can run the more powerful ramp to even out the playing field. It all comes down to what power level you want to shoot for. There are always reasons to not just include only the best cards for each scenario, lockets and clustones have places in lower power golos decks aside from being budget - it makes the deck worse, and can allow commanders not as powerful to compete more easily.
I know exactly why I'm using Vorinclex. I have lost faith in the committee.
I'm surprised you had faith at all, they're fuckin stupid
I have to disagree with vorinclex. I only play it to halve my opponents mana. When you are aware of the powerlevel of other pods or people you know when you can play decks with it or not. If a meet son guy with a pre con, not going to pull that deck out. On the other hand, I do not play cEDH, but that card would do nothing there..
The way Charlotte defines how a card can be too powerful for Commander has me thinking: Why haven't the RC banned Thoracle? It's objectively more efficient than labman AND jace, not to mention cheaper, and is extremely hard to interact with. Even if your Thoracle gets countered, you didn't lose much because it only costs UU.
and on top of that, most decks can't interact with it after it's off the stack.
EDIT: A couple of responses seem to not get that "Dies to removal" isn't an argument. This card just doesn't get blown out by the most popular removal of the format(kill spells) and requires that you dedicate space in your deck to specifically either A) counter the ETB trigger, or B) run enough free spells and interaction to prevent your opponent from winning turns 1/2.
People also seem to forget that tutors are extremely efficient and manabases are some of the strongest ever in this format. It is very much possible to have the combo by turn 2-3.
Its because its actually much harder to use. If you draw it without the ability to combo off there, its either dead or you play it and know you lost that potential game win in the process. Labman is good largely because he allows you to combo after he is already out, and jace is good because he gets you card draw plus mill on top of his game win ability. Kinda like arguing that there isnt a reason to have a swiss army knife when a scalpel is just so good at surgical procedures
@@aidanquiett668 It's not harder to use, do you even play this game to make such stupid remark?
@@aidanquiett668 ThOr + Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact is a two card combo that most colours can't do nothing about it.
Labman needs a third card to draw and win AND can be deal with by every color.
You are insane to think that ThOr is harder to use lmao
@@jinshootingstar it is a harder card to use in majority of circumstances, because you need combo that most people relegate to CEDH in hand. One people find unfun at lower levels.
The entire point of banning flash was to make consultation oracle lines less quick and consistant, which it did. Oracle is a dead card if you don't have it's combo piece, And there are still ways to play around the combo.(stifle is an underplayed card)
@@jinshootingstar Red has REB and PB, blue has counters, green has hatebears and it can tutor them with green tutors like GSZ or the green pact, white has hatebears, black can tutor up any effect in the game, including anything the other colors have, plus its own hatecards. Every color has options so USE THEM and stop complaining about a combo just because it can win on the spot
It's pretty apparent that a lot of the commenters here didn't actually watch the video and don't care to understand the topic because they're too individualistic to consider Commander for what it is: A group experience where everyone's experience matters, not just yours.
Three minutes in and the first answer given by an RC member is "The cards that are too powerful and break the format are the cards which are too powerful and break the format"; gee, thanks for that enlightened insight into your thought processes! It's no wonder the RC does literally nothing!
This person is uh... not on the RC. They uh... They make that pretty clear at the very beginning of the video..
@@henryjones8636 Oh, my apologies, the CAG.... a group with even less functionality despite being officially part of WotC.
The reason Hullbreacher is broken is because his axe is upside down.
How has it not fallen into the water yet
Thank you Daniel. I enjoyed this comment :)
Adding powerful cards to the format is ultimately a non-issue, in my opinion. As long as a pod's decks are relatively balanced to one another, games will be fun.
Notes on particular cards:
Vorinclex - unlikely to accelerate the player's mana the turn it hits because of its high cost, but is painful for the person removing it because it punishes their manabase. Solution is for the removal player to make it clear to the table that they're doing them a huge favour.
Smothering Tithe - my issue with this is that it's too splashable. It's a very good effect that white needs, but only requiring one white mana to cast it means it can just be included in every deck with white. Making it 1WWW or even WWWW would ensure it only gets played in mono white or very white-heavy decks.
Iona - this just comes down to discussing with your pod when choosing what decks to use. Basically, as long as this isn't in a pod with a mono-colour player, it's completely fine.
I'm kinda sick of people always calling out Chulane and Korvold as these overly powerful cards that no matter how you build it they are so strong. Both of those decks I own I'd say are like a 6-7 power level. There are ways of building them to not combo out and just have fun. I think this mindset of having to build the most power version of the deck is really the issue.
Not doubting you, but even without game ending combos I don’t think Korvold or Chulane can be built at a 6-7 unless you fill them with absolute jank.. Remotely decent cards in either of those decks and you’re sitting solidly at an 8.
@@Mrchiken373 Idk I don't think my decks are full of jank but I dont think it's an 8. But everyone's power level is different. I consider 8 right under Cedh and any Cedh deck would destroy my decks. That's why i say 6-7.
I'm pretty Sure Winter Orb is Fun!!! ✌️😅
Whenever you change the normal game steps to where a player attains them on opponent's turn is usually broken. Like untapping your lands or creatures on thier untap phase for instance. Or putting an untap phase on your end step. Drawing cards not so much..like monarch. Card advantage, and mana advantage wins the game. It should be more about mechanics of cards and strategy of the player. Not just because I own one 3 mana card that gives me instant advantage.
Wizard's philosophy in designing cards for Commander seems to be comparable to what they do to Vintage and Legacy: make everything so broken that it's ultimately balanced. Unfortunately, that sets everyone up for a wallet arms race.
Door to Nothingness eliminates one player a turn later. Something like Coalition Victory eliminates any number of players immediately. I don't see how you can really compare those to each other.
LOL IKR. Some of these comparisons really emphasize how our personal experiences with something determine our decisions on what we deem overpowered and not fun.
I play Vorinclex in every deck that's green. It's my favorite card in the game. It actually got me attracted to playing Magic. If you're my opponent, I don't really care how it effects you. It's doing it's job.
good opinion
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. What a fun, well balanced commander that's bound to bring every member at the table loads of fun~!
@@Velveteeno13 lol what? Not saying noone uses it as the commander but.... who uses Vorinclex as their commander?
There's definitely a part of me that wishes I could play Recurring Nightmare in Commander, but I also recognize that it absolutely is too absurdly powerful to be in the format.
I just have to accept that Cube is the answer.
I too wish you could play it. Honestly, I don’t see the power level everyone claims it has. Too me, it is just another necromancy. Sure, bringing back a wurmcoil and killing it too get tokens is good. But is that any different than flickering a creature and getting tokens when it enters? My opinion is no. Of that player has managed to achieve that board state, that is more on me for not running graveyard hate, not having that counter spell, or not having that wheel to discard his hand, than on him for spending those turns setting up that win.
"Cube is the answer"
This is the way.
@@MM-oz9nx Iirc the argument from the vid was that it's a very strong effect and it certainly is, but also that it's difficult to answer, which depends on the meta.
I think you could reasonably try it out with your playgroup if there's already enough counterspells, grave hate and hand disruption to not make the card invalidate the rest of the game too much or too often.
For the average casual table, I think it would be a mistake. It can easily put everything else in its shadow and remain unanswered by most casual decks without access to blue most of the time. It would make many interesting back and forth games quite boring and predictable.
edit. Cube is the answer! Last time I played I had the sweetest jund ponza deck where I reanimated avalanche riders every turn
I think the thing with Sol Ring and moxen is, you can only run 1 Sol Ring. You can run 5 moxen. Also WotC probably doesn't want to reprint Moxen but they can stomach Sol Ring.
Most commander decks are light on removal?
.....are they? Are they REALLY?
Not on my playgroup. The hate is real.
@@ossiliere same in my playgroup, tons of removal, wraths, and hatebears/stax.
I love the seperation between casual commander and cedh. Like chulane is not even close to the top of whats possible in magic but in a casual setting its very overwhelming and powerfull.
I gave a Like even though I dont agree with anything said in this episode.
The problem of Smothering Tithe is only it's mana cost. It should have been 1WWW.
I tweeted at you about this exact subject
Happy to see the video
Worldfire isn't overpowered. It's just unfun. It just means everyone goes into topdeck mode and the winner is random luck. It negates the plan of every deck except MAYBE its own.
Or you float mana, cast your commander and kill each player in pretty quick order. :) Still unfun though.
I get your point, but on the other hand chaos is part of RED`s nature and Worldfire causes exactly that. Yes it would be frustrating to face it often, but I wouldn`t mind it happening once in a while tbh. It has the potential to make some really memorable games too.
What about hullbreacher and oposition agent?