Cards That Are Too Strong For Our Group | Commander Clash Podcast #48
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- The crew talks about the cards that they used to run but don't anymore because they're too strong for their playgroups.
===
Follow us on your favorite podcast app!
▲ Spotify: open.spotify.c...
▲ iTunes: podcasts.apple...
▲ Google Podcasts: podcasts.googl...
Buy our merch! Clear out Richard's garage! mtggoldfishmer...
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.82[1/2] แก๊ง 3 สาวเพื่อนซี้บุก CAMPปลิ้นครั้งนี้ห้ามเสียอาการ](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_6WUjXHe1TM/mqdefault.jpg)
Prediction: Crim's most hated and overpowered card is "Forest"
My prediction: Snow-Covered Forest
@@natejablonski power creep is a plague
The land type or the basic land?
He is not wrong
I know it's my least favorite.
i call that shit every time I cast demonic consultation.
I'm just like here let me search this good grixis deck for a terrible card.
oops, can't find one 😶😶😶
Having Crim in your playgroup is the real curse of friendship.
I don't play Deadeye most of the time because it's bad, not because it's too good. If you know what you're doing, you can just remove it in response to the soulbond trigger when the player tries to use it for value or to combo. And it's six mana, plus two to even use it.
tomer doesnt like chaos week, but doesnt mind taking 50 mins to go off while everybody else sits and watches
I have two decks with Curse of Verbosity that I actually cast on myself. One is a Minn deck with the goal of drawing two cards on each player's turn. The other is a monarch/initative deck. It's nice to get some extra value when someone takes the crown.
fantastic topic!
For Eminence, if the Commanders had something like "At the beginnig of your end step, if Inalla, Archmage Ritualist is in your Command Zone, lose life equal to the amount of opponents you have. This loss of life cannot be cirrcumvented, nor can it trigger permanents a player controls." or something like it, it'd be fine.
Maybe not that ability specifically, but some sort of cost for keeping your Commander in your Command Zone. Maybe you could make it that Commander doesn't have to pay Commander Tax or something. Obviously it'd have to be balanced.
Listen, I have a buddy who always curses himself with the opulence. And ever since then that's how I play it. Make sure it's a deck that either gains life or has decent blockers and if I get attacked I get a bonus lol
Mana Crypt is only fun when everyone at the table is playing one. I would feel bad dropping a Crypt if I knew that the person next to me wasn't running it.
Crim´s hair lowkey resembles icecream
I think eminence is fine, its just that wizard broke it the first time. Eminence should be a mana ability, not just free effects. Like Inalla's ability should be like pay 3, not 1 mana.
You really have to give Crim credit--the man plays control in EDH, always gets attacked, always gets cursed, never gets salty or tilted, doesn't even think curses are annoying even if he knows they hurt his archetype the most. Absolute chad.
Fr, competent stax pilots are some of the most chill people you'll ever meet
@@Alan-wp9yntheir game plan is literally patience, they’ve gotta be chill
They have to be chill because they know THEY are the annoying player at the table hahaha especially Crim! This dude plays the worse cards in the game lol I love watching the tables reactions when he plays x. Crim I didn’t like you until I liked you dude!!
I want to be Crim when I grow up haha
Nah, he always tricks the others into attacking or targeting someone else. The only one aware of his tactics is Tomer, who gets salty when the others won't listen 😂
I think it's funny that the discussion around insurrection is "does this person deserve to win the game" where in other podcasts you all more or less agreed that if you cast an 8 mana spell it should win you the game.
This is what I was thinking as well
The discussion about mana crypt was also a contradiction to their usual take on cedh cards being played in casual games.
Agreed. I think though It probably doesn't help the card is that they are valuing it at it's worst potential. At worst its like playing against some one who plays all lands except for one card that says "i win" on it. Sure a lot of the time they are not going to win, but when it gets to those points where it's like a stale mate, and every one is just trying to either draw the right card, or leverage there pieces to close out the game and then out of no where lil timmy who has been chewing on the furniture all game finally draws his "I win" card it makes the entire experience unbelievably cheap, or anticlimactic.
@@wolfspirit12223 You take that back, furniture is delicious and I will continue eating my couch until the game has ended or the couch is gone!
On a serious note, did no one else listen to their takes? It being on this list has nothing to do with it winning the game. They even said it’s not a power reason at the beginning of that section, just an easy button reason. Which I think is oversimplifying it a lot, and I disagree with it being here, but they’re not just self-contradicting and saying it’s bad because it wins the game.
I’d be very interested to see WotC design and make a commander that has Eminence as a downside. Like every time you cast a spell, lose life or something. And the commander has some other appropriately powerful ability that counterbalances the downside when it’s actually in play, that incentivizes you to actually cast it.
This! This is the perfect balance to Eminence's inherent power!
I think that would be an interesting idea, but i think that would basically be repeating companions. it's just not something that would be easy to balance because it has to be good enough to want to deal with the downsides, but not good enough that it just overtakes the game because of it.
Both its downside and its upside would have to be part of its Eminence for this to work out the way you want.
If the downside was in its Eminence but its upside while on the battlefield where enough to outweigh that downside,
then people won't play it as their commander, they would play it in their 99.
I think that the variety in EDH would balance it, if you did it right. For example: Evil Imp Guy. 2+B to cast. Creature Effect: X. Eminence: lose 1 life whenever you cast a spell. Now, consider two options for X. Maybe X = whenever a creature dies, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life. That would be pretty good in battlecruiser metas, probably awful in cEDH. But the downside of his eminence is much much lower in cEDH fast metas. So if X was something that benefited cEDH more (like, say, whenever an opponent draws a card you gain 1 life and they lose 1 life), he would be pretty weak in lower power levels but busted in cEDH. All this to say, I think if you considered what the different power-levels want to do, you could balance it to best in one of those power-levels but not Korvold/Chulane/Golos-level where they're (maybe a little too?) strong at any power level.
Or, make the eminence effect a marginally beneficial ability, like the first time you do X on your own turn, draw 1 card, or gain 1 life, etc. Then, make the effect better when it's in play, like draw 2 cards instead of 1 or gain 2 life instead of 1.
It's kinda funny how everybody sees Rhystic Study and agrees that paying the 1 is the way to go, but when Curse of Opulence hits the field they all go:"Oh no, we can't attack anyone but the cursed player and there's literally no way to stop the guy who played Curse of Opulence from creating massive amounts of treasure."
The actual risk and reward in this card is that the table should focus the person who played Curse of Opulence, because it is quite literally a "Tempt with..." card. You don't get tempted. The player who played the card always profits more from it than you.
Curse of opulence only makes 1 treasure per combat tho
Imagine if Rhystic gave the person a benefit if they DIDN’T pay. Would you still always pay the one?
hottake the right play with opulence is to enchant yourself so you wont get attacked and it turns into a earlygame propaganda/ghostly prison.
@@another_jesus1867Never thought about that! xDD
I always cut it from deck, cause it makes my playgroup focus on me if I curse another player. But THIS is a great way to play it^^
Tomer's face when Seth says he never pays for the Rhystic Study 😂
Tomer is right tho, I don’t think Seth is that dumb to never pay I think he’s just a troll
At this point I mostly don't pay because seeing how tilted it makes Tomer is pretty funny. If it didn't bother Tomer so much I'd probably pay, at least sometimes.
Which I guess means I'm a troll ;)
@@MTGGoldfishCommander It's a bridge worth dying under
Yeah it makes great content and keeps me watching haha you’re a funny dude
Crims logic is flawed with sol ring/ mana crypt. With his logic it would be ok to have 20 different sol rings type cards as long as sol ring is in the format. Having 2 different types of sol ring cards is way worse than having 2. Not only does it double your chance but it also now allows u to play 2 on your first turn. That would be impossible if only one sol ring card existed.
Not to mention that Sol ring is extremely accessible with a million printings and costs $2 while mana crpyt is over $150
@@nulljaeger3850 if mana crypt was also 2 dollars its still broken, doesnt feel any better to lose to a proxy mana crypt
Idk about other people's pods, but the person with the Curse of Opulence doesn't always get attacked. Sure, it's "free value" for my opponent when they attack the cursed player, except it's not because the Curse's owner gets the value too, and all players see this. I've had games where the only person the whole game triggering my Curse of Opulence is me. That's still good, it's still red ramp, but it's not the death sentence that Richard is making it out to be.
Yeah. Usually they put up blockers like anyone normally would in a game. So you get some hits in early. But after board states are established, a lot less.
I don't know, it works exactly how Richard says in my playgroup. If there is anything at all to be gained for attacking a specific player, Malachi and I will just destroy them. Maybe it is a playgroup difference, but I've had a very different experience.
I laugh at those curses, I straight up put Curse of Opulence in my Werewolf tribal deck to enchant myself, it suddenly functions as a Ghostly Prison/Propaganda effect as nobody wants to give me mana with all the cards I draw, I'm always short on mana.
P.S. I'm short on mana because I have so many Werewolves that the more I play, the more I draw and it just keeps spiraling from there. Druidic Repository is the best mana generator in the deck outside of nykthos and Gaea's cradle type effects(I run all three, Gaea's cradle is a proxy)
Well that’s why you keep an ace up your sleeve to deal with the Curse owner. Let them get all the value they want while you do the same, but hold up a counterspell or whatever for when they try to go off with all their free mana.
Regardless, even if it only triggers two or three times, that’s still way too much value for a 1-drop that has no real risk attached to it.
Came here to say this. The treasures aren’t free. The owner gets catapulted ahead massively if they’re getting 3 treasures a turn cycle.
But the card doesn’t work like that, people don’t want to put you ahead that much. It’s actually a fair smothering tithe, it’s one they have control over.
Commander crew: "If you play something costing 8 mana it is fair that you win". Also commander crew: "First card that is too strong for our group is 8 mana, blink a card".
I mean with peregrine drake/similar cards it is a win so… idk. I think Seth took it out due to his love of Panharmonicon
TBF you do get to split up the cost, it's instant speed to activate, and goes infinite with a shoelace.
@@Frostgiantbutsmall a shoelace and a ham sandwich!
Its because its an 8 mana win card, disguised as a value piece and protection piece. Its honestly not op as a win but it is if its used as a value.
@@peytonmillner6417 that and you can also win with it so it’s value + win = good
Instead of banning Dockside Extortionist, they decided to reprint it in a high-cost premium set for whales. Man the harpoons! Thaaaaar she blows!
Same with Mana Drain
Shipside Extortionist!
@@Kryptnyt Mana drain ain't worth a ban tho. It also was reprinted often.
2:30 Deadeye Navigator (Seth)
9:05 Curse of Opulence (Richard)
18:00 Rhystic Study (Tomer)
28:00 Inalla, Archmage Ritualist (Crim)
38:15 Craterhoof Behemoth (Seth)
43:15 Insurrection (Richard)
52:00 Mana Crypt (Tomer)
59:00 Dockside Extortionist (Crim)
1:08:35 Thassa's Oracle (Seth)
1:17:30 Avenger of Zendikar (Richard)
1:24:07 Expropriate (Tomer)
1:32:10 Necropotence (Crim)
1:39:00 Closing Thoughts
SMH my head they really need to ban the card ""Closing Thoughts"
@@nathanmontgomery7865 fr what is the rules committee thinking on that one!
@@starmanda88 They really should take action. We have Closing Statement as a viable alternative.
I have a Dockside, and the only deck I play it in is my Vazi deck, where the point of the deck is to make tons of treasures for every player, and then play effects which punish them or benefit me when they use them. Giving an opponent 25 treasures, which burn them for 1 and draw me a card for each one they use, is exactly what I play Commander for.
What if Wizards made inverted curses (blessings?)
I.e. “Whenever enchanted player attacks one or more of your opponents, you and enchanted player each ________”?
Great idea!
They have one card like this called tenuous truce. As long as you and the enchanted player don’t attack each other you each get an extra card every turn
There are many cards like that, including Edric, Spymaster or Trest and Breena, the Demagogue.
There's wedding ring! That's a start lol
I think people dont like extra turn spells because normally theyre there to have a game of magic or socialise and not watch their opponent play solitaire
I'm fine with the older 5th-10th edition extra turns. PAying 10 mana for 2 extra turns in mono blue back then was fine. PAying 5 for 1 turn was also a lot more fair.
Crim out here still having the most inconsistent things he’s okay with 😂
Dockside is my most annoying card because it is always the best card for your engine, if you reanimate,blink, or have any strategy it’s always the best thing to abuse
34:53 I love when no one remembers Oloro because it doesn't say "Eminence" on the card. >:) Just let my resting giant gain life with his paradox haze
I feel the same way about rhystic as Tomer. I literally can’t talk about it reasonably cause it makes me so upset. 😂 Doesn’t need ANY synergy to draw 10 for 3. Then it taxes the whole table AND it takes up so much time deciding whether or not to pay for it. THEN it causes issues between players when people can pay it but don’t. Aaauugh!!
You just always pay, that's it. Basically it taxes every spell until it's destroyed.
@@faperito2389 No. Get the other 2 players to agree to cast cheap stuff and make the one with rhystic study self mill.
But maybe this is because In my pod, I'm the guy who has the "everyone draws" stuff. Or the everyone gets a land/creature spells. It's really easy for me to give the other 2 players enough cards to finish of the one with rhystic.
No one has palyed rhystic for over a year at my store (at least the nights I go).
Would love to see the opposite of this, 3 new cards since the pandemic we love in the format. There's been a lot of mistakes in the format over that time frame so some introspection on newer cards you like would make for some interesting discussion I think.
Edit: Not simply strong cards but rather cards that you enjoy playing specifically in commander. You could even split it up between commanders and 99s.
Goldfather is definitely the best version of that name though
They named 90% of what Game Knights decks have :D
Why not make a house rule with friends or have Wizards errata Eminence like they did the companions. Something like, 'The first time your commander enters the battlefield you get an emblem with Eminence.' Then you can continue using it even after your commander gets sent back to command zone. At least this way you have to successfully get your commander out at least once.
Great idea.
Behemoth, Insurrection, Coalition victory, - they all cost 8. Consultation/oracle costs 3 in total. And nothing that happened before mattered.
My friend uses Inalla but it's his high power deck. I can't really complain though because my high power deck is Narset
Fishfather is cool but Goldfather sounds better!
Tomer's giant smile while Richard complained about Opulence made my day. xD Every week Richard has some new weird card he wants everyone to stop playing cuz he got absolutely wrecked by it 🤣 Didn't even lose the game because of it n he still hanging on ahahahha
"These 4 Eminence commanders are all broken!"
Oloro: 😢
Five. Never forget Oloro.
Its so funny because he used to be one of the most hated commanders. Now he seems quaint in comparison to the other eminence commanders 😂
@@starmanda88 I still know better than to think an Oloro deck isn't going to try to play fair Magic though haha
Don't forget Derevi. Basically anything that messes with the command zone is bad, I think.
@@jaygiemtg7511 I actually don't mind Ur, just because Dragons tend to be overcosted
Richard is the Gold Token punch bag of the Goldfish edh grp.
The only reason he does not like curses, because he´s the one always gets cursed.
And he still wins anyway.
@@jaygiemtg7511 With a Bird
I wouldnt say the only. Curses are miserable. Good flavour, but who wants to feel miserable in edh game
@@oORoOFLOo we have 3 of the 5 colors in mtg, black, white and blue, where half the good cards from those colors are miserable cards.
The only way way i could see eminence being designed well, is if it only gave you information. Like if you had a commander like elsha of the infinite that can cast cards from the top of your library, it could have an eminence ability that allowed you to always look at the top of your library
I feel like it could do something useful, but would need to be only printed on pretty weak commanders.
Eminence feels like a free guaranteed enchantment your opponents can't remove. The only tradeoff I can see being fair, is if the commander itself is profoundly mediocre. After all, having a Commander in the command zone is functionally an eighth card in your opening hand that you're guaranteed to have. If that card is guaranteed to be meh, then MAYBE it makes up for the "free, impossible to remove enchantment" effect.
The way Richard talks you’d think the curse players has them in their hand turn 1. I might see the point if curses had a commander that can really bury you consistently early game and that certainly isn’t what that grixis lady is doing.
He's just salty because his biggest creature is a 2/2, so he can never block.
too many finishers on this list, they may be boring but games need to end. i thought you guys would look at cards that would generate too much value compared to their costs.
cards like rhystic study (that you mentioned) that warp the game so much while the game still actually continues, oppressive cards that basically say "awnser this now or i run away with the game for an hour"
yea funny how the same people that whine that games take to long refuse to play any finishers and then cry about value cards getting to much value while also saying more people need to play removal but then refuse to play more then 2 removal spells. at this point im about done listening to any play advice from this group because they dont do any of the things they say you should and nowhere do they say they don't for entertainment or anything. they are all just hypocrites except honestly Crim, but Richard is by far the worst hypocrite i have ever seen. i play 8-10 removal spells in all my decks and thats including the wipes, i usually have 3-5 ways to remove artifacts/enchantments, if everyone has that ratio then that is 9-15 cards that could be drawn to remove the rhystic study/Smothering Tithe.
Someone on Reddit gave me the best argument for Coalition Victory remaining banned, way better than the RCs reasoning.
It's not that it ends the game, it's what it does to play patterns. Specifically the play patterns of people playing against it. If CV is unbanned then every 5C deck would be better for running it. Which then means that the correct play pattern when playing against ALL five color decks would be to blow up their lands and kill their 5c commander so much they can't play it. It makes it miserable FOR THE PERSON PLAYING THE 5C DECK.
… good? 5 color decks are inherently uninteresting, they essentially sidestep the commander color restrictions that every other commander in the format has to play by, and with how wizards prints dual and tri lands these days they are no longer even limited by color fixing. If the default play pattern of most commander players was to attack the mana base of 5 color decks at least there would be an actual downside to them.
1:08:05 This is funny to hear now due to the recent news about the mana crypt ban
Interesting part of curses is you can cast it on yourself and punish being attacked.
Insurrection is just trash. Got killed by a guy with no board, tutoring into insurrection. Wow the best game I've ever experienced.
I think cards that win the game for the person way behind are fun as long as you don't play tutors or too many of them in same deck they keep the interest in the game even if you are far behind. if you don't run them you can get a feeling so easily that "there is no way I win here" and this feeling leads me to bully the player that made me loose
Rhystic Dissertation 6U:
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, draw a card if they do not pay 2.
No way. 3UUU is better. not seven and not easily splashed and unconditional (no tax). I would prefer it to be printed in a cycle as UUUUU. That would be a cool cycle. Green one says your creatures get +X/+X where X is the number of lands you control. Lol.
@@josephpayton7522 that wouldn't be a Rhystic effect. The Rhystic cycle involves doing something unless any opponent pays to prevent it.
@@bodaciouschad Yeah. I don't want another rhystic cycle. Just a 5 pip cycle.
@@josephpayton7522 at that point you might as well just run the magic mirror instead, UUUUU means only mono-blue, treasure decks, and people with expensive manabases get to cast it.
Love the name!
I think the team finds Insurrection boring because of the usual problem people have with theft. It's deemed "easy" because they're winning with other people's resources. But it's actually not that easy to have that many creatures on board if the pod is playing responsibly and actually wiping the board.
If the problem with it being boring is that you just do nothing until you cast Insurrection, that's not exactly the safe play. This would mean you're waiting for the board to have a lot of creatures. If you were doing nothing, those creatures were probably attacking you for being open.
But maybe I'm a little biased because I play Marchesa theft and there were too many times when I had nothing good to steal.
Everyone, even her designer, goes off on how busted Inalla is. I really don't think she's THAT good. I have an Inalla deck and that mana gate is a really limiting factor. That effect is on a card, molten echoes is the exact same card without a Mana gate and is 4 mana. If I activate Inalla 4 times throughout the game her eminence ability has just effectively drawn me 1 specific card. And yes you CAN build combos with spellseeker and wanderwine prophet but you can do that with literally any deck. It's just weird to me that Inalla has become the face of why eminence is busted when Edgar does so much more with so much less investment and the Ur-dragon is effectively Mox-Dragon.
In cEDH Inalla is insane because it lets you win the game with a one card combo off of spell seeker, but with so many strong enter the battlefield triggers and in really strong colors I do agree Inalla is way strong. Eminence I think in general was a mistake, I think most commanders that do anything in the command zone are insane honestly
the card is cracked, i don't understand how people don't look at her and immediately see that. unless you're building VERY casually, it's absurd. biggest issue is nobody can "react" to it, which people tend to dislike. super hexproof.
@@Frostgiantbutsmall have you ever targeted and blown up a Molten Echoes? Because I play that in Inalla and no one targets it as a must kill immediately. Then why is it so important that you can interact with the thing that is on average getting me an extra Sea Gate Oracle trigger?
Crim - " So I can attack on two fronts" .Me - Yeah, emotionally and emotionally.
First card was definitely something that hit me. My brother plays it in his Riku of Twin Reflections and just infinites me with a dockside or etb damage effect.
Dockside and mana crypt shouldn’t see casual play period; no deck under an 8 should play it. Even 5-7 power decks should not play sol ring and over a 1/3 of my decks dont run it. Its still fast mana and still ruins games turn 1 or 2; play worn powerstone instead of the plethora of 2 drop rocks.
Uber-casual players are just as annoying as cEDH.
dude i dont know what play groups you play with but i have never in 2 years seen Sol ring be an issue, i even have a friend that like Phil seems to have it glued to his opening hand and the games still go 1-2 hours and its a toss up on who wins. Even at my LGS people get the turn 1 sol ring and about 1-2 hours later without having drawn mine i win the game because i play protection spells so they board wipe and i keep my board and swing them out or they try to burn me a ton of damage and i shot it back at them. i have never once lost a game just because Sol ring.
Honestly from what i can see if by turn 7 you haven't hit mana neutral from missed land drops then you must be drawing to many lands or your deck has a ton of draw and maybe that is your problem. if Sol ring is the most broken offensive card you can think of maybe your deck is built to strong and instead of blaming the overpowered undercosted cards they are making you blame the mana rocks. if a turn 2 play decides your games then hey guess what? you're playing cEDH not casual. getting a turn 8 win instead of a turn 9-10 win isnt over powered at all and only happens if there is no interaction and good draws. if its passed turn 12 mana amounts tend to not matter anymore anyway so it does almost nothing.
I also tend to not run combos in my decks so i don't just win out of nowhere, maybe if you're having a problem with games ending to fast take the combos out of your decks instead of crying about some ramp. i could literally not run it and my decks wouldn't notice, you talk about it like its powering up decks yet it literally does nothing but help fix your land drops. if that is your argument then green ramp needs banned, whites catch up ramp needs banned, black and reds rituals need banned, and all mana rocks need banned. they all do the same thing and its not that vast of a difference.
Curses/political cards and mechanics in general are funny how different they are per playgroup. For my play group, curse of opulence is not enough to encourage people to swing at them.
Same here. I’m the only aggro player in my group. I play almost every single “Attacking gives you stuff!” cards, and it still doesn’t incentivize my playgroup to attack. It’s sad
I like "Goldfather" better, personally.
59:20 listening to this 9/27/24 just hits different...you guys were ahead of your time. Calling out mana crypt and dockside haha
Coalition Victory requires your commander and minimum two triomes, or three shocks. If you’re running all shocks, or just a lot of land ramp, I find it nearly impossible for you to not qualify.
Insurrection on the other hand requires there to be enough creatures in play, which is not a guarantee. It’s also effectively negated by Propaganda and Ghostly Prison, or other effect that punish opponents attacking you. Rakdos Charm is also a staple in the format and will make the insurrection player very sad. I would also imagine some players have a sac outlet available and would sac their board in response, if it would stop you from winning. To me, there are enough answers to Insurrection.
In this podcast, some of you are saying everyone is automatically playing blue because Rhystic Study is the most powerful card in the format, yet when you ranked all the colors, blue was the worst?
I guess I just disagree with Richard on everything in EDH, but that’s okay. Love the podcast, keep it up.
right? its like how they say the only way green has to win is combat and are sitting here crying about green cards that let them win with combat. now yes i am selective on which decks i put hoof in and dont just jam it in all my decks with green but its in my Chulane as the literal only searchable way i have to win in that deck or one of the few ways i can make my 16 mana dorks work in combat at all. and its in my Surrak Dragonclaw deck because its all about having and casting big creatures so its used as a card to give everything trample more then for the pump and being a creature works better then an enchantment. its not in my Lathril or any other green decks because they can win without it/ its not a theme card. but thats a me choice not a its to powerful there are a ton of powerful antems and they say the infect one is fine but that and trample is an even more lame way to win then hoof.
100% agree on Coalotion Victory.
It is so easy to setup and probably the most boring way to win.
I feel like I should cut Seedborn Muse. It makes me feel guilty for hogging time on everyone's turn.
With all the Winding Canyons effects avaliable, it's very low effort to turn it into the rightfully-banned Prophet of Kruphix.
I was hoping it would make the list so I could hear what the crew thought about it. I almost think of it as the green Rhystic Study.
So half this list should be "cards we are jaded on, since we have played commander for so long".
Deadeye's greatest crime is being boring and predictable. It's shine has definitely been scuffed by the passage of time, but I will still never let this card resolve if I can help it. Too slow to be broken, too strong to let it stick, does absolutely nothing fair or honest.
Richard complaining about Curse of Opulence is hilarious to me. "Too powerful" is the wildest take on this card.
I know lololol
I really like it but combine it with Goad
I agree with everything on this list except avenger of zendikar. I think it's still a strong card, but there are just more impactful options in even many green decks
Every play group has a Crim…and everyone wants their Crim to go home
Tomer, Rhystic Study is your least favorite staple. Sure. But can I sell you on my least favorite? Let me reintroduce you to the design-abomination Sensei's Divining Top. It's a nightmare. Every. Single. Turn.
"What if there was a 4cmc card that says "attack my oponents and you get a treasure"" she's called Jolene and she's beautiful
I really love listening to these discussions, but I would really love to hear the expression "right" a bit less from Richard. It is just too much... Everything else is amazing :)
The conversation about Crypt/Dockside became pretty gatekeepy. "not real jank if you're using powerful ramp to enable your bad expensive cards" just kinda sucks idk. Why is this a thing we're now saying?
I think it's an interesting question. I've run into it a lot in 60 card formats for Against the Odds. If I drop a Blood Moon to keep my opponent from doing anything and then win with a janky win con did I win with Blood Moon or the jank? I still don't know the right answer, and I've been Blood Mooning and janking people for a long time now.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander I feel like there's a difference between jank in Commander, a format which is top-to-bottom designed to be an antithesis to 60-card competitive, and formats like Legacy or Modern, which are inherently spikey.
You're right, there's a conversation to be had about it, but if you're casting Mana Crypts and Docksides as to effectively trigger your (hypothetical) favorite card - Vengevine - in EDH, you're probably not a huge threat, even if backed by such bombs.
I hate hoof because literally every green deck I see is just a hoof deck, sometimes with extra step. Hoof just homogenized decks....
If you don't like going infinite with it, why are you playing peregrine drake etc. with deadeye? surely they are the problem cards.
rhystic study draws ten cards off of seth and taxes everyone else lmao
Lmao these guys just hate every good card.
"Dockside is Soooo good... but I don't want to counter it"
Wow.
Just play all the group hug curses, and put one on each opponent. Easy.
Do you think that Curses could be better if they had an option for the cursed player to pay some type of cost to shift the curse to someone other than the card owner?
I think that would be a great improvement. Sort of similar to the new Hold for Ransom card from SNC, except it reattaches instead of sacc-ing. Would probably have to be at sorcery speed too
@@ciaran.downey would definitely need to be at sorcery speed
I think the thassa's oracle conversation is a good argument towards playing some amount of hand disruption in commander and if your playing thoracle in a self mill deck there is a chance you could just lose the thoracle to your graveyard and get it exiled by any number of graveyard removals.
Goldfather sounds like godfather I think that’s more better
They can't ban mana crypt what else will kill me in my own games which is sadly happened more times than I want to admit
Crim crushing the Prof in commander makes sense now.
Quick someone make a deck that thoracle wins by amassing an enormous devotion to blue
Richard lol Curse of Opulence is totally raw though, right haha.
Attack with ornithopter 😃🔥✔️
Only green should be able to play high cmc cards according to these guys
was niv mizzet, phyresis, and curiosity a cheap win?
Are we finally getting plushies? I want to buy a plushie!!!!
I honestly don’t know why necro is legal
I run Necropotence and it completely warps the game every time it hits the board, I'm quick at going down to 7 cards at the end of my turn but once I do there is rarely anything my opponents can do to stop me winning on my untap because I just drew 25+ cards and picked the best 7 to protect myself and my wincon.
The whole thing is made worse by the fact I can activate it repeatedly in response to removal so I get my cards regardless and with Necropotence off the board I can discard normally instead of into exile so it is just upside for me if it gets removed.
Phil should get all those cards and play them in a list just for the giggles
That would be hilarious but he's too focused on fun and doesn't like making people feel bad. Crim would 100% do this
eminence can be fixed Eminence 1: with create a 1/1 legendary (same creature types as the card) token with (the Eminence ability) this ability cost 2 more for echt time you activated it.
Why does seedborn muse never get a mention if extra turns get hated out....
Imma put all these on my buy list. XD.
This video aged like a fine wine!!
Why is Richard not the Codfather?
The reason richard hates curse of opulence so much is because he doesn't run enough removal to consistently remove a threat that is only threatening him.
Or blockers big enough to block a 3/3
I love my Arahbo deck. And the eminence ability is actually just too good. Yes it's "safe" in that it's pretty much impossible to combo with, but a free +3/+3 is still really good. It changes all the combat math in my favor and makes the green card draw (Rishkar's Expertise) really good.
I love mine too! He’s so much fun. I get why people hate it though.
Avenger of Zendikar is sooooo good
*Deadeye Navigator:* I feel like it's somewhat comparable to Recurring Nightmare in that once it hits the battlefield, as long as you're playing it correctly, it's EXTREMELY hard to actually deal with it. Obviously Recurring Nightmare is harder to deal with being an enchantment and returning itself to your hand before passing priority, but they end up playing very similarly for your opponents once they actually hit the battlefield.
*Curse of Opulence:* I pretty much agree with Richard, but I still play it in more aggressive decks like Saskia where the extra damage helps a LOT.
*Rhystic Study:* I don't play this card at all anymore. It's just sooooooo strong. I hate having to be the person asking "do you pay the 1" every time anyone plays a spell.
*The 'Eminence' ability:* It's absolutely busted, and a mistake. That said, Inalla Wizard-Reanimator is one of my favorite decks I've ever built, and I've also had an Arabho deck in the past and it was really fun.
*Craterhoof Behemoth:* I don't think this card is too powerful. I'm just tired of it. It's been the go-to win condition for green creature decks that can go wide in any capacity for a little over a decade(over 1/3 of this game's existence) and it's just gotten old at this point.
*Insurrection:* I hate anticlimactic wins. I agree with Seth's question "does that person deserve to win." Yeah they picked a good time to cast Insurrection and end the game, but losing because you played your cards and your opponent resolved a single spell isn't what I think commander should be.
*Mana Crypt:* I just hate all fast mana. If I could theoretically recreate the banned list, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Moxen, Jeweled Lotus, and maybe Grim Monolith would all be on it.
*Dockside Extortionist:* See Mana Crypt.
*Thassa's Oracle:* I think the other wincons in your deck matter a lot with ThOracle for me. If you're playing it as a value card in something like Kumena or Thassa Deep-Dwelling, then I think it's fine. If you're playing a control deck with ThOracle as your ONLY wincon and you're doing it every single game, then I absolutely hate it. In general, it's really hit-or-miss.
*Avenger of Zendikar:* I think this card is beyond okay in commander. In fact, it's almost a perfect card to demonstrate everything great AND wrong with commander in my mind. Good ) it's a really cool, splashy spell that doesn't win the game immediately but is still a big threat when it comes down. Bad ) it highlights everything wrong with Ramp in the format by doing exactly what Richard said - it makes late game ramp very strong, which reverses the downside that normally comes with playing ramp spells.
*Expropriate:* The only problem with this card is when your opponent values their single permanent more than giving you an extra turn. Any time you cast Expropriate and you take 2 extra turns, you will win. It's still very strong only getting 1 extra turn, but not necessarily game-ending. Time Warp + Blatent Thievery is a really cool effect for 9 mana.
*Necropotence:* Less annoying, more powerful Rhystic Study. Rhystic Study is a 3 mana draw 10? Necro is a 3 mana draw 20+. Even the "fair" play where you just refill your hand every turn is super powerful.
Not really - you just have to use removal _after_ they use deadeye, when the soulbond trigger is on the stack. It's very fragile, just not a lot of people realize they have a chance to respond after the blink.
Agree with most of your other points though.
@@RyanEglitis if they have the mana to activate it again in response to the removal spell then they could still protect it, but that's still a LOT of mana.
@@jordangroblewsky2087 No, they can't, because you wait until the creature comes back in, when the soulbond trigger is on the stack. At that point, 0 creatures in play have the ability to blink.
Of course, you can't choose when to try to kill it - you need to wait for them to use it first on their own. But if they never use it, then you've neutralized it without even spending a card.
I love how at 16:00 they almost perfectly described Jolene, the Plunder Queen: "Whenever a player attacks one or more of your opponents, that attacking player creates a Treasure token.", she also makes sure you benefit the most with her second ability: "If you would create one or more Treasure tokens, instead create those tokens plus an additional Treasure token."
It really exemplifies the just immense number of new cards being created.
As a casual player, Rhystic Study has rarely made me rage that bad. I never pay the tax, so I am the greedy bitch, but to me, those card will be drawn either way. If my spells arent winning the game, Im gonna lose regardless
That... is... such a wrong evaluation of the card. "Those cards will be drawn either way" ? Well yeah, but not in the same turn. Carddraw is the best thing you can do in mtg. When you give the blue player all the possibilities, your spells will never win you the game. If you allow him to draw for every spell, even if the rhystic study player has to go to discard, he has always the best 7 cards in hand and roll you over. Better pay the tax. Most rhystic study player try to draw from it or keep a hand with just that to draw better cards. It is better to deny that
Did you guys watch Game Knights w/ the Baldur's Gate precons? Lexi Drew like 20-30 cards off of Josh with her rhystic study and sealed the deal with expropriate and dockside...
With those “do you pay the x” my group is like assuming no one is paying unless they state otherwise. I think the asking part is the annoying part lol
Hilarious how krim is always just doing own thing during these things
46:23 Just cuz I know Tomer likes words.
an·ti·cli·mac·tic
gotta pronounce that c to make it climaCtic
Otherwise you're talking about the weather or pronouncing the misspelling anticlimaTic with no c
playing against landfall decks suuuuuuucks.
Gotta love the fact I've seen like 75% of these cards at "casual" tables at my LGS.
I disagree about Rhystic Study being too good for cEDH, without it and Mystic Remora I feel that blue would really struggle to keep up a good level of countermagic for turbo decks - instead we'd see an even greater share of stax to fill that control role.
Like Tomer I also don't include it in regular decks and try to look for unplayed cards, I think I play Ceta Sanctuary in Animar instead.
Speaking of alternatives, instead of hoof I run Decimator of the Provinces in Animar too.
@@jamessheffield9091 He's a good pig
I think I'm with Crim and Richard on Thoracle - obviously Demonic Consultation should be banned, but if you're fairly self-milling in a 100-card format you earned the win dude. Someone should've done literally anything in the meantime to break up the engine you were assembling, or to interact with your cards in some way (discard? shuffling graveyards?), or to just straight up kill you. The fact that it's difficult to interact with Thoracle (or any ETB for that matter) really doesn't scream "bannable" to me